Around Metro Detroit:
- After months of construction, I-94/I-69 in Port Huron has reopened. There's three new spans over the Black River, one westbound bridge and two eastbound bridges, segregating local and international traffic, plus the road on each side of the river is wider now.
- Meanwhile, further down I-94, work has begun to replace lights and BGSes along a five-mile stretch in Detroit and Harper Woods. It's expected to last into 2013.
- The I-75/Dix-Toledo Highway interchange reconstruction in Brownstown Township is nearing completion.
- Other parts of I-94 in the region is being improved. The project's divided into four phases:
Phase 1 involves the overpasses at the I-275 interchange in Romulus. It is currently in progress and ends this November.
Phase 2 involved the overpasses at the M-39 interchange in Allen Park. Most of it has been completed, only northbound M-39 is still being worked on.
Phase 3 involved resurfacing between Wyoming and 2nd Streets on Detroit's west side. It is now completed.
Phase 4 involved resurfacing between M-29 and the Saint Clair/Macomb County line near New Baltimore. It is almost complete, only the eastbound shoulder remains to be worked on. - I-96 in western Oakland County is still under construction for bridge replacement.
- Starting in 2013, construction will be performed on U.S. 23/223 in southern Monroe County. This involves interchange resurfacing, resurfacing at the Dundee Welcome Center and the modification of the U.S. 223 interchange into a dumbbell interchange.
These are just a few of many projects occurring throughout Detroit.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Detroit,+MI&hl=en&ll=42.312156,-83.096091&spn=0.004387,0.006427&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=10.900733,21.643066&oq=det&t=h&hnear=Detroit,+Wayne,+Michigan&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.312187,-83.093769&panoid=TeTwXkxGAOQSys8yDzHE9w&cbp=12,71.41,,0,0
I was noticing in this street view that I-75 is closed for construction near the Ambassador Bridge in Detroit. How could such an urban interstate have so much traffic placed on city streets?
Now I am aware this might be a few years ago as it looks like it was when MDOT was making its approaches to the border crossing, however now, before, or someday, it seems unusual to shut down an entire interstate in a major metropolitan area.
Happens all the time. I-96 is scheduled to be closed this year or next between I think 275 and Telegraph. The reconstruction work will be done quicker if you shut down the whole freeway.
In the GSV image you've linked to, 75 was closed because they actually lowered the roadbed a couple of feet during construction.
That is very interesting. Its sounds good as they can work uninterrupted. In Florida, FDOT would not let I-4 shut down for sure! The most they do is close lanes.
PennDOT does it good, with shutting down one whole side of the road, do everything, and then move to the other side to finish the rest at one time. One bad aspect in this, if someone breaks down, you cannot maneuver between the jersey barriers that are spaced 10 feet apart.
MDOT can get away with closing down an entire freeway in Detroit due to the prevalence of good alternate routes. For example, MDOT closed down sections of the Southfield Freeway (M-39) and the primary alternate was Telegraph Road (US-24); and closed down sections of the Lodge Freeway (M-10) with alternates in the Chrysler Freeway (I-75) and Woodward Avenue (M-1).
Florida instead builds a whole new set of lanes to the side. In Tampa they've bought and wrecked a whole adjacent city block, on I-4 east and I-275 west of downtown.
Don't forget that traffic in metro Detroit isn't exactly at its peak, and hasn't been in a few years, thanks to the economy.
When I-75 was closed, they had signs all over the place, including south of Toledo, OH warning drivers of the closure. They also directed drivers up US-23 and I-275 well before the closure; they could then easily get to points along I-75 by cutting over on I-94, I-96, or I-696.
Not here in O-town! If I-4 gets shut down, and everyday there is some major accident that does, the streets around it, including US 17 & 92 get completely clogged.
Hey just the other day a tractor trailer jackknifed in the rain and had I-4 shut down around the Michigan Street. It had extra traffic along Michigan Street Westbound (that never has any traffic around 6 AM)in the early morning. I travel that route every day and when I saw it I knew right away that something happened on I-4.
If that particular accident even happened during the day even off peak around noon, Michigan Street would be a nightmare as it has heavy volume to begin with all day long. Then if a train came by and crossed Michigan( there is an at grade rail crossing just east of I-4 with frequent freight traffic), it would be ten times worse! As we know, railroads have the right away over motor roads, and do not have to schedule trains around commuters busy schedules.
Anyway, I guess we can say different practices have to happen in different metro areas. Add the politics of the engineers and it becomes even more interesting.
A quick question that just came to my mind while I was checking something else in the area - Are, or were, there plans to develop a transport corridor between I-196 at M-21 (interchange 69, with that wide spot in median and an unusual interchange layout) and the wide spot in the median of I-96 just west of Fruit Ridge Ave (interchange 26) on the west side of the Grand Rapids area? IMHO, this would very nicely complement the recently built M-6 and complete a good metro area 'beltline'.
:hmmm:
Mike
The LSJ had an article about the recently-rebuilt stretch of Michigan Avenue in Lansing and East Lansing:
Need direction? Reworked Michigan Avenue stretch is filled with signs
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20130823/NEWS01/308230029/Need-direction-Reworked-Michigan-Avenue-stretch-filled-signs
Apparently, Dukes of Hazzard launches aren't just limited to Indiana. A guy towing a lawn mower performed a huge jump into Sycamore Creek on I-96, just west of the I-496/US-127 interchange near Lansing.
Driver in dramatic I-96 crash expected to make a full recovery
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013308200039
Construction has been completed at the US-23/US-223 interchange in Monroe County. Roundabouits have been added, now the drivers just need to be educated on how to use them. The signage, however, is a virtual nightmare. Erroneous cardinal directions, inappropriate "TO" signs, missing shields make this exit a hoot.
Grand Rapids is getting some significant rush hour congestion when it never used to have any. During the evenings, the worst I've seen are I-96
westbound (yes, really, westbound) between M-11/28th Street and where the third lane comes in at M-21, and northbound M-44/East Beltline between Cascade and Knapp. Stop and go the whole length, every day. Both have room to be widened, and I think there are plans eventually for I-96. I-196 between US 131 and M-11 isn't great either.
What's been bad for years is M-37/Alpine Ave for its first few miles north of I-96. The only viable long-term solution I can see is to bypass the shopping corridor entirely. Would it make more sense to hook into US 131 around 6 Mile or so, or to go west and reach I-96 around the Walker Ave exit? Heck, you could just designate Fruit Ridge Ave as M-37 from I-96 to Kent City with minimal improvements (widen shoulders, smooth curves), but I feel like all the traffic that wants to take that route already does. It also wouldn't help traffic to Sparta.
Quote from: mgk920 on June 13, 2013, 02:52:53 PM
A quick question that just came to my mind while I was checking something else in the area - Are, or were, there plans to develop a transport corridor between I-196 at M-21 (interchange 69, with that wide spot in median and an unusual interchange layout) and the wide spot in the median of I-96 just west of Fruit Ridge Ave (interchange 26) on the west side of the Grand Rapids area? IMHO, this would very nicely complement the recently built M-6 and complete a good metro area 'beltline'.
:hmmm:
Mike
You know, I'd never noticed those wide spots before, but you're probably right. The original plan for Grand Rapids in the 1960s was for there to be four beltlines, though presumably as divided surface streets and not freeways. East Beltline was built (M-37/M-44), the beginnings of the South and West Beltlines became M-11, and the North Beltline (roughly 3 Mile Rd) was never started. The Wilson Ave part of M-11 would have been widened and extended into what you're seeing. (Of course, now that M-6 is the semi-official South Beltline, it doesn't make as much sense.)
On that note, the Wilson Ave portion of M-11 is mostly two lanes, with the occasional passing lane or left turn lane. All the rest of M-11 is 5 lanes, even the part
west of Wilson! I sure hope that changes soon. It's not very safe.
Quote from: getemngo on September 30, 2013, 11:42:08 PM
Grand Rapids is getting some significant rush hour congestion when it never used to have any. During the evenings, the worst I've seen are I-96 westbound (yes, really, westbound) between M-11/28th Street and where the third lane comes in at M-21, and northbound M-44/East Beltline between Cascade and Knapp. Stop and go the whole length, every day. Both have room to be widened, and I think there are plans eventually for I-96. I-196 between US 131 and M-11 isn't great either.
What's been bad for years is M-37/Alpine Ave for its first few miles north of I-96. The only viable long-term solution I can see is to bypass the shopping corridor entirely. Would it make more sense to hook into US 131 around 6 Mile or so, or to go west and reach I-96 around the Walker Ave exit? Heck, you could just designate Fruit Ridge Ave as M-37 from I-96 to Kent City with minimal improvements (widen shoulders, smooth curves), but I feel like all the traffic that wants to take that route already does. It also wouldn't help traffic to Sparta.
Quote from: mgk920 on June 13, 2013, 02:52:53 PM
A quick question that just came to my mind while I was checking something else in the area - Are, or were, there plans to develop a transport corridor between I-196 at M-21 (interchange 69, with that wide spot in median and an unusual interchange layout) and the wide spot in the median of I-96 just west of Fruit Ridge Ave (interchange 26) on the west side of the Grand Rapids area? IMHO, this would very nicely complement the recently built M-6 and complete a good metro area 'beltline'.
:hmmm:
Mike
You know, I'd never noticed those wide spots before, but you're probably right. The original plan for Grand Rapids in the 1960s was for there to be four beltlines, though presumably as divided surface streets and not freeways. East Beltline was built (M-37/M-44), the beginnings of the South and West Beltlines became M-11, and the North Beltline (roughly 3 Mile Rd) was never started. The Wilson Ave part of M-11 would have been widened and extended into what you're seeing. (Of course, now that M-6 is the semi-official South Beltline, it doesn't make as much sense.)
On that note, the Wilson Ave portion of M-11 is mostly two lanes, with the occasional passing lane or left turn lane. All the rest of M-11 is 5 lanes, even the part west of Wilson! I sure hope that changes soon. It's not very safe.
I don't get how Wilson Ave is only two lanes from Burton to Remembrance (except around Lake Michigan/M-45) and it's four/five lanes from Remembrance to 3 Mile. I also don't get how some much less congested roads are five lanes in Grand Rapids (see 60th St east of East Kentwood HS, 68th St from Byron Center to Burlingame, and Barden Dr)
MDOT would like you to ask your politicians to raise the gas tax, pretty please.
http://justfixtheroads.com/
Given the current level of state taxation (and the fact that it hasn't changed since 1997), they have a point.
Larry Harris of Benton Harbor, who drives a tractor-trailer, said he's looking forward to a pilot program designed to alert truck drivers to available parking spaces along the I-94 corridor between Detroit and Chicago.
I-94 project will help truckers find open parking spots
http://www.freep.com/article/20131201/NEWS06/312010063/truckers-signs-I-94-Truck-Parking-Information-and-Management-System-pilot-program-MDOT
I-96's Larson Road interchance (exit 140, near Howell) opened at 11:30 am on Monday, December 2. I happened to drive under it 15 minutes before the ceremony, without any idea of the day's significance until I saw the mass of cars and fancy looking tent!
Quote from: ftballfan on October 26, 2013, 09:47:41 PM
I don't get how Wilson Ave is only two lanes from Burton to Remembrance (except around Lake Michigan/M-45) and it's four/five lanes from Remembrance to 3 Mile. I also don't get how some much less congested roads are five lanes in Grand Rapids (see 60th St east of East Kentwood HS, 68th St from Byron Center to Burlingame, and Barden Dr)
Well, none of those are MDOT maintained. Kent County has been going crazy with widening roads in the southern townships in the last few years. 68th is also 5 lanes all the way from US 131 to M-37, except through Dutton. Not to mention the number of traffic signals...but this is one of the fastest growing areas of the state. It's not the worst thing that these roads are prepared for what traffic will be like in 10 years.
Thieves Can't Stop Stealing Copper From Detroit Freeway Streetlights
http://detroit.jalopnik.com/thieves-cant-stop-stealing-copper-from-detroit-freeway-1479646345/@travis
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 09, 2013, 10:53:21 PM
Thieves Can't Stop Stealing Copper From Detroit Freeway Streetlights
http://detroit.jalopnik.com/thieves-cant-stop-stealing-copper-from-detroit-freeway-1479646345/@travis
Last time I was on I-94 at night, not a single streetlight was turned on between the eastern city limits and I-96. I've heard it's due to the city's finances (thieves can steal a lot, but I don't think their rate can be 100%). It was so strange to drive an unlit urban freeway. :no:
It's MDOT's finances - they're responsible for lighting on state highways.
How difficult would it be for MDOT to use steel/aluminum wires strung overhead to power those streetlights?
Mike
MDOT's solution to the problematic I-96/US-23 interchange in Brighton: Express lanes.
http://michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008_66872---,00.html
So basically, the existing I-96 lanes over US-23 (with the left entrances intact) will remain, albeit reconfigured slightly for smoother operation, as a C/D lane setup. The new six-lane section of I-96 will slot in-between. It should make for a much calmer, smoother drive.
Hopefully the bridges will be constructed with a future six-laning of US-23 in mind.
So MDOT is going to buy up all of those houses in the median of I-96 then, I guess?
That appears to be the case. It's not exactly a desirable location for a home, what with being bordered on all sides by nonstop freeway traffic.
Motorists, businesses prepare for 10-month closure of crumbling I-96
http://www.freep.com/article/20131229/NEWS05/312290074/Motorists-businesses-prepare-for-10-month-closure-of-crumbling-I-96
Quote from: HandsomeRob on December 26, 2013, 05:20:49 PM
So MDOT is going to buy up all of those houses in the median of I-96 then, I guess?
Made me look ... didn't know there were any homes in that right-of-way until now.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 30, 2013, 11:50:42 PM
Motorists, businesses prepare for 10-month closure of crumbling I-96
http://www.freep.com/article/20131229/NEWS05/312290074/Motorists-businesses-prepare-for-10-month-closure-of-crumbling-I-96
What's the thinking - is this going to jam up the Lodge, Gd River Ave., I-94, all of the above?
Quote from: Steve on January 02, 2014, 10:54:39 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 30, 2013, 11:50:42 PM
Motorists, businesses prepare for 10-month closure of crumbling I-96
http://www.freep.com/article/20131229/NEWS05/312290074/Motorists-businesses-prepare-for-10-month-closure-of-crumbling-I-96
What's the thinking - is this going to jam up the Lodge, Gd River Ave., I-94, all of the above?
There's precedent for this in recent Detroit freeway rebuilds - the Lodge (M-10) and the Southfield (M-39) freeways were completely shut down for their rebuilds. Commuters made route adjustments to compensate, and it turned out not to be a major problem. The advantage to doing this is that they can complete the repairs in one season instead of two.
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 03, 2014, 11:43:38 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 02, 2014, 10:54:39 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 30, 2013, 11:50:42 PM
Motorists, businesses prepare for 10-month closure of crumbling I-96
http://www.freep.com/article/20131229/NEWS05/312290074/Motorists-businesses-prepare-for-10-month-closure-of-crumbling-I-96
What's the thinking - is this going to jam up the Lodge, Gd River Ave., I-94, all of the above?
There's precedent for this in recent Detroit freeway rebuilds - the Lodge (M-10) and the Southfield (M-39) freeways were completely shut down for their rebuilds. Commuters made route adjustments to compensate, and it turned out not to be a major problem. The advantage to doing this is that they can complete the repairs in one season instead of two.
That, and Metro Detroit does have an excellent road system for getting around. Unlike, say Chicago, Detroit has enough decent ways to get around that closing one for a season for massive repairs really doesn't cause a major issue.
http://www.freep.com/article/20140108/NEWS02/301080131/Interstate-96-Wayne-County-closure-delayed
From the 1/9 Detroit Free Press, according to the City of Livonia it looks like I-96 from I-275 to US 24 will now not close until late March (vs the originally-announced late January).
Quote from: Brandon on January 07, 2014, 04:55:52 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 03, 2014, 11:43:38 PM
There's precedent for this in recent Detroit freeway rebuilds - the Lodge (M-10) and the Southfield (M-39) freeways were completely shut down for their rebuilds. Commuters made route adjustments to compensate, and it turned out not to be a major problem. The advantage to doing this is that they can complete the repairs in one season instead of two.
That, and Metro Detroit does have an excellent road system for getting around. Unlike, say Chicago, Detroit has enough decent ways to get around that closing one for a season for massive repairs really doesn't cause a major issue.
Until they do the Edsel Ford, if ever....
Fixed quotes - please try not to break them! ~S
A pothole on 11 Mile in Southfield had Mary Stack at Belle Tire on South Stephenson in Royal Oak Saturday, spending money on a new tire and rim, five months after getting new tires for her Acura. She's not happy, and she said she wants state legislators to find money to fix the roads.
"Get a backbone," Stack said of the state's politicians. "It's a disaster out there."
Potholes: Severe winter leads to jaw-jarring rides for metro Detroit motorists
http://www.freep.com/article/20140210/NEWS05/302100026/potholes-Detroit-winter
Some things I noticed on my trip through southern Michigan yesterday:
- A fair number of cops along I-94 (plus a few on I-69). The I-69 cops ignored my going 75.
- A lot of traffic on I-94, especially between Kalamazoo and Battle Creek. That said, traffic still flowed at/near the speed limit.
- We went right through Lansing on I-496. I was surprised that the speed limit stayed 70 MPH throughout. Was also somewhat surprised that the east-west segment of I-496 was only two lanes, though the lack of traffic suggests that there isn't a need for more.
- Noticed occasional overhead VMS that portrayed distance and travel time to the next major city or two. These were spotted on both I-94 and I-69.
- The western 3-4 miles of I-94 in Van Buren County felt like riding on railroad ties.
- Noticed some temporary single-lane closure zones here and there, mostly for guardrail repair. In each case, MDOT sets out SEVERAL signs ahead of the zone, and drops the speed limit from 70 to 60.
- According to signs and a portable VMS, lane closures at the I-69/I-94 interchange begin tomorrow (the 9th). An EXTENSIVE reconstruction of the interchange is underway.
Quote from: froggie on April 08, 2014, 07:18:15 AM
- We went right through Lansing on I-496. I was surprised that the speed limit stayed 70 MPH throughout. Was also somewhat surprised that the east-west segment of I-496 was only two lanes, though the lack of traffic suggests that there isn't a need for more.
It was raised to 70 around 2010, if I'm remembering correctly. This is becoming more common. US 131 is now 70 through all of downtown Grand Rapids.
Having the pseudo-C/D lanes at the east end of downtown helps with capacity, but I-496 will still jam during rush hour occasionally. There's probably enough room in the median to make it 6 lanes, and I'd like to see that happen in the next decade.
Quote- Noticed some temporary single-lane closure zones here and there, mostly for guardrail repair. In each case, MDOT sets out SEVERAL signs ahead of the zone, and drops the speed limit from 70 to 60.
This is standard for Michigan construction - drop the speed by 10 at all times, and drop it down to 45 "when workers present." For a brief time, it was 45 or lower in all construction zones at all times, but they quickly figured out that nobody paid attention to a speed limit that ridiculous.
Quote from: getemngo on April 08, 2014, 02:48:42 PMFor a brief time, it was 45 or lower in all construction zones at all times, but they quickly figured out that nobody paid attention to a speed limit that ridiculous.
tell that to many, many places around the country. especially when it's a "construction zone" in name only: some orange signs, and not a single bit of activity or human life. downtown Tucson comes to mind: 45mph on I-10 for just a few traffic cones blocking off the median from the #1 lane.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 08, 2014, 03:09:25 PM
Quote from: getemngo on April 08, 2014, 02:48:42 PMFor a brief time, it was 45 or lower in all construction zones at all times, but they quickly figured out that nobody paid attention to a speed limit that ridiculous.
tell that to many, many places around the country. especially when it's a "construction zone" in name only: some orange signs, and not a single bit of activity or human life. downtown Tucson comes to mind: 45mph on I-10 for just a few traffic cones blocking off the median from the #1 lane.
You think of Tucson, I think of Illinois: 55 mph for a mile before a few cones on the shoulder beneath an overpass. Either way, the way Michigan signs speed limits in construction zones is one of the best I've seen in terms of worker safety and driver satisfaction.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 08, 2014, 03:09:25 PM
Quote from: getemngo on April 08, 2014, 02:48:42 PMFor a brief time, it was 45 or lower in all construction zones at all times, but they quickly figured out that nobody paid attention to a speed limit that ridiculous.
tell that to many, many places around the country. especially when it's a "construction zone" in name only: some orange signs, and not a single bit of activity or human life. downtown Tucson comes to mind: 45mph on I-10 for just a few traffic cones blocking off the median from the #1 lane.
At least in WVa, construction zones were somewhat part-time: The actual speed zones had a flashing yellow light attached to the 45 MPH sign, which was only supposed to be on when they were actually working in the zone. If the light was not flashing, drivers could remain at the normal posted speeds through the zones.
Occasionally, you would have a zone in which the workers forgot to disconnect the battery to the light, but overall, it was the most fairest way to enforce speeds through construction zones. I wish more states would have adapted to that method.
Quote from: froggie on April 08, 2014, 07:18:15 AM
Some things I noticed on my trip through southern Michigan yesterday:
- A fair number of cops along I-94 (plus a few on I-69). The I-69 cops ignored my going 75.
They'll ignore you until you are doing 11mph or more over the limit, as a rule (don't ask how well I know this rule). In some areas of Michigan (metro Detroit), there's very little speed enforcement at all.
Quote from: froggie on April 08, 2014, 07:18:15 AM
- A lot of traffic on I-94, especially between Kalamazoo and Battle Creek. That said, traffic still flowed at/near the speed limit.
MDOT is very reluctant to perform any widening work anywhere (mostly due to lack of funding). The only reason the 6-lane section in Kalamazoo got built was stimulus funding.
I-94 has very heavy truck traffic that's doing an average of 15mph slower than car traffic. You spend a LOT of time stuck behind a big rig doing 62 overtaking one doing 61.
Quote from: froggie on April 08, 2014, 07:18:15 AM
- We went right through Lansing on I-496. I was surprised that the speed limit stayed 70 MPH throughout. Was also somewhat surprised that the east-west segment of I-496 was only two lanes, though the lack of traffic suggests that there isn't a need for more.
MDOT as a rule posts 70mph limits on freeways unless they're seriously substandard (inner-city freeway segments in Grand Rapids and Detroit are the outliers). I-496 got the bump to 70 from 55 throughout in April 2007.
The entirety of I-496 could use 6-laning (both the N-S duplex with US-127 and the E-W section). It's about as unlikely to happen as 6-laning I-94 between Kalamazoo and Battle Creek.
Quote from: froggie on April 08, 2014, 07:18:15 AM
- Noticed occasional overhead VMS that portrayed distance and travel time to the next major city or two. These were spotted on both I-94 and I-69.
- The western 3-4 miles of I-94 in Van Buren County felt like riding on railroad ties.
- Noticed some temporary single-lane closure zones here and there, mostly for guardrail repair. In each case, MDOT sets out SEVERAL signs ahead of the zone, and drops the speed limit from 70 to 60.
They're actually FIXING the guardrails? Wow... I was cursing how many of the cable-median barriers had clearly sat unfixed most of the winter on my last trip through in late March.
QuoteI-94 has very heavy truck traffic that's doing an average of 15mph slower than car traffic. You spend a LOT of time stuck behind a big rig doing 62 overtaking one doing 61.
On that note, something I didn't mention earlier is the split car/truck speed limit, which IMO is a far bigger cause of traffic problems than the lack of lanes.
I'll copy Froggie's idea here with a list of quick notes. This weekend I went from Sault Ste. Marie down to Novi, then to Ann Arbor, then back up north (with a couple minor detours to clinch things). Unfortunately I didn't go anywhere east of I-275, so there's not much I know about the I-96 closure.
- The closed rest area on SB US 127 at Higgins Lake still has all highway signage present with CLOSED over it. There are gates, but they'd be very easy to drive around on the left. Building is completely intact, with most windows covered up from the inside.
- I stopped at the rest area on SB I-75 at Alger very late at night. The building was lit entirely with LEDs. The lights outside the entrance and in the lobby were somewhat dim, then turned on brighter as I approached them! Looks like the Fenton rest area on NB US 23 has the same lights.
- On EB I-96 approaching metro Detroit, a VMS gave travel times to downtown via I-696/M-10 and via I-275/I-94. On 8 Mile at its interchange with I-96/I-275, references to East I-96 were covered up. Approaching the closed portion of I-96 on EB I-96/SB I-275, there are a couple very permanent looking BGS's (greenout?) changing the East I-96 exit to the Newburgh Rd exit. I-275 was no busier than usual.
- M-14 has a short 65 mph section west of its western interchange with US 23. It's pretty narrow. Also, I'd never driven M-14 eastbound before. Exit 4, Barton Drive, is so tight that the onramp ends with a stop sign. :-o And the western interchange with US 23 is not numbered on M-14, even though all its other exits are, including the eastern interchange with US 23 when you're heading westbound.
- We've already talked in this thread about the small neighborhood in the median of I-96 that will have to be destroyed to make way for the rebuilt I-96/US 23 interchange. Well, I drove partway into it, and it's already been vacated. About half the houses have been demolished, starting at the southern end. A couple of the remaining ones were sitting with the doors wide open. I was pretty tempted to explore them.
- On my drive back, NB I-75 was completely closed in Saginaw for construction. I don't think it was on my drive down. All traffic was forced onto I-675. Southbound lanes were open.
- I-675's speed limit is 70 the whole way. That means Michigan has no urban freeways left with a speed limit of 55 outside of metro Detroit... unless I-194 does at its northern end?
Wonders never cease.
Michigan tax cut plans dim as focus shifts to potholes
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/viewart/20140426/NEWS01/304260042/Michigan-tax-cut-plans-dim-focus-shifts-potholes
House bill sparks concerns about toll roads in Michigan
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20140501/NEWS01/305010041/House-bill-sparks-concerns-about-toll-roads-Michigan
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 09, 2014, 11:05:32 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 08, 2014, 07:18:15 AM
Some things I noticed on my trip through southern Michigan yesterday:
- A fair number of cops along I-94 (plus a few on I-69). The I-69 cops ignored my going 75.
They'll ignore you until you are doing 11mph or more over the limit, as a rule (don't ask how well I know this rule). In some areas of Michigan (metro Detroit), there's very little speed enforcement at all.
There is, but you have to be doing triple digits to get noticed by the blue geese on a metro Detroit freeway. There's too many going 80-90 for them to even think about chasing.
Now, SW Michigan on the other hand can be a bit more heavy-handed, especially on those with Illinois plates from Chicago. I think the speed tips them off, and then they find some other dumbass FIB move they pull.
Morouns tell judge it's 'end of the race' if she won't block rival [to the Ambassador] bridge
http://www.freep.com/article/20140501/NEWS06/305010036/Morouns-tell-judge-it-s-end-of-the-race-if-she-won-t-block-rival-bridge
MDOT has a page dedicated to debunking myths about road maintenance and construction.
Bottom line: Pay up, you cheapskates!
MDOT Transportation Reality Check
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_67533---,00.html
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 02, 2014, 01:42:34 AM
Morouns tell judge it's 'end of the race' if she won't block rival [to the Ambassador] bridge
http://www.freep.com/article/20140501/NEWS06/305010036/Morouns-tell-judge-it-s-end-of-the-race-if-she-won-t-block-rival-bridge
Cry me a fucking river. Matty "Moron" Moroun can fuck off.
Quote from: Brandon on May 05, 2014, 10:03:05 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 02, 2014, 01:42:34 AM
Morouns tell judge it's 'end of the race' if she won't block rival [to the Ambassador] bridge
http://www.freep.com/article/20140501/NEWS06/305010036/Morouns-tell-judge-it-s-end-of-the-race-if-she-won-t-block-rival-bridge
Cry me a fucking river. Matty "Moron" Moroun can fuck off.
I've been saying that for years.
Quote from: renegade on May 05, 2014, 07:25:30 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 05, 2014, 10:03:05 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 02, 2014, 01:42:34 AM
Morouns tell judge it's 'end of the race' if she won't block rival [to the Ambassador] bridge
http://www.freep.com/article/20140501/NEWS06/305010036/Morouns-tell-judge-it-s-end-of-the-race-if-she-won-t-block-rival-bridge
Cry me a fucking river. Matty "Moron" Moroun can fuck off.
I've been saying that for years.
And Matty has been saying that to Detroit for Decades!
MDOT: Four rest stops vandalizedhttp://woodtv.com/2014/05/05/mdot-four-rest-stops-vandalized/
QuoteMARSHALL, Mich. (WOOD) — The Michigan State Police is trying to find out who caused tens of thousands of dollars in damage to the men's restrooms at three rest areas and one welcome center across the state.
Someone damaged toilets, urinals and sinks with what appears to be hammer, according to the Michigan Department of Transportation.
And of course, MDOT will have to use money that was originally going toward fixing potholes to repair these rest areas.
Quote from: getemngo on May 06, 2014, 07:40:54 PM
MDOT: Four rest stops vandalized
http://woodtv.com/2014/05/05/mdot-four-rest-stops-vandalized/
QuoteMARSHALL, Mich. (WOOD) — The Michigan State Police is trying to find out who caused tens of thousands of dollars in damage to the men's restrooms at three rest areas and one welcome center across the state.
Someone damaged toilets, urinals and sinks with what appears to be hammer, according to the Michigan Department of Transportation.
And of course, MDOT will have to use money that was originally going toward fixing potholes to repair these rest areas.
Interestingly, they're only the men's restrooms, and all of the rest areas line up neatly as if someone went from Ohio toward Chicago along US-23 and I-94 doing this.
The Detroit Free Press posted an article highlighting how bad the road funding shortfalls are in Michigan compared to its peers. Pennsylvania outspends Michigan by a factor of FOUR!
Raw Data: Michigan is dead last for highway expenditures per capita
http://www.freep.com/article/20140518/OPINION05/305180043/Michigan-road-spending-highways?odyssey=obinsite
This week, the bi-national Sault Ste. Marie Bridge Authority (SSMBA) board unanimously approved an $8.9 million contract with DeVere Construction from Alpena, Michigan, to construct a new toll plaza in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan.
"This is a great day for the sister cities of Sault Ste. Marie and our customers," said SSMBA Board Chair Linda Hoath of Sault, Mich. "This project will improve customer service, plaza safety, and operational efficiency."
The project will replace the 52-year-old toll plaza and office building. The new toll booths and office building will be constructed approximately 150 feet (45 meters) south of the existing booths and building. This will require realignment and reconstruction of the I-75 traffic ramps immediately south of the toll plaza. Construction on the plaza project is scheduled to begin in June and conclude in November 2015.
International Bridge toll plaza reconstruction moves forward
http://www.sooeveningnews.com/article/20140517/NEWS/140519075
High fuel taxes and low spending on roads.
It's a nasty combination, but Michigan motorists can rightfully complain they pay some of the highest fuel taxes to drive on some of the lousiest roads.
According to national data, Michigan has the sixth-highest state taxes on gasoline but one of the lowest rates of investment on roads in the nation.
That's galling to motorists such as Norbert Kroll of Howell, who works as an engineer in Dearborn.
"What did they do with all that money?" Kroll asked. "We should have the sixth-best roads in the nation not the sixth-worst."
Clearly, this is a large part of the resistance to raising fuel taxes in Michigan, and completely understandable.
If Michigan can divert the sales tax directly to roads (and the current non-transportation budget suggests it's possible), that would solve a lot of problems without trying to push through an unpopular fuel tax increase or incorporate an asinine travel tax.
Why Michiganders pay among highest gas taxes - to drive on crummy roads
http://www.freep.com/article/20140523/NEWS06/305230042/roads-taxes-fuel-michigan
Edited to add commentary.
I see that MDOT has I-75 closed from M-134 to Rudyard for culvert replacement, and are detouring traffic onto Mackinac Trail. I know that Mackinac Trail was repaved several years ago, but I don't recall it being up to state highway standards. Also, how old is the Pine River Bridge south of Rudyard? Seems like it would be an "interesting" drive with all the I-75 traffic.
Also interesting, getting off NB I-75 at M-134, you turn left for Detour I-75, and right for Detour Village! :hmmm:
Quote from: halork on June 24, 2014, 05:17:31 AM
I see that MDOT has I-75 closed from M-134 to Rudyard for culvert replacement, and are detouring traffic onto Mackinac Trail. I know that Mackinac Trail was repaved several years ago, but I don't recall it being up to state highway standards. Also, how old is the Pine River Bridge south of Rudyard? Seems like it would be an "interesting" drive with all the I-75 traffic.
That seems odd. Why didn't MDOT just convert one side of the freeway into two-way traffic while they do the culverts on one carriageway, then switch them around to do the other one? You know, like every other rural, low traffic freeway project in the country.
Even culverts that span the entire freeway could be replaced half at a time. Shunting all the summer tourists onto surface roads doesn't seem like the best idea to me.
Unless this is an extremely short duration project...?
Info from MDOT's website:
TOTAL CLOSURE- Mon. 6/16/2014, 6AM to Fri. 8/1/2014, 9PM
Northbound and southbound I-75 between M-134 and M-48
Details:
Closed and detoured for culvert replacement.
Detour: M-134 to Mackinac Trail to M-48 to I-75. Reversed for southbound traffic. No oversized or overweight vehicles.
Contact: Newberry TSC 906-293-5168
Chippewa County
Expires in 38 days. Last updated: 6/10/2014, 10:32 AM
Apparently it's cheaper to shut down the road than to pay for 12 miles of traffic management? Odd, however, that they'd perform the work during the height of summer travel season (it's shut down until August 1st). They could have pulled this off after Labor Day easily.
The Google street view (from 6 years ago) show Mackinac Trail was mostly freshly rebuilt with wider paved shoulders (there was about a mile north of Dixie Hwy that was clearly substandard, but the rest was rebuilt). I would presume that it was probably adequate for the temporary traffic arrangement.
I'm a little surprised they needed to do this kind of shutdown considering the road was reconstructed a few years ago. Didn't they fix the culverts then?
This is pretty bizarre, yes. Even worse that oversized/overweight vehicles will need to take M-48 to M-129 to M-134 - a 46-mile detour for a 15-mile stretch of I-75. :wow:
Quote from: JREwing78 on June 24, 2014, 11:01:33 PM
The Google street view (from 6 years ago) show Mackinac Trail was mostly freshly rebuilt with wider paved shoulders (there was about a mile north of Dixie Hwy that was clearly substandard, but the rest was rebuilt). I would presume that it was probably adequate for the temporary traffic arrangement.
MDOT actually rebuilt Hiawatha Trail in Mackinac County before repairing the Cut River Bridge and making Hiawatha Trail the detour for US 2. Surprised they didn't do the same thing here. I also hope they don't notice and remove the state-named I-75 shield approaching the intersection with M-134...
P.S. Nobody, not even natives, has called it Dixie Highway since the '30s. It's just Google Maps being Google Maps.
Quote from: getemngo on June 26, 2014, 01:04:18 AM
This is pretty bizarre, yes. Even worse that oversized/overweight vehicles will need to take M-48 to M-129 to M-134 - a 46-mile detour for a 15-mile stretch of I-75. :wow:
One would think that an oversize/overweight load bound for the Soo would simply stay on M-129 and not head out of their way to rejoin I-75.
Quote from: getemngo on June 26, 2014, 01:04:18 AMQuote from: JREwing78 on June 24, 2014, 11:01:33 PM
The Google street view (from 6 years ago) show Mackinac Trail was mostly freshly rebuilt with wider paved shoulders (there was about a mile north of Dixie Hwy that was clearly substandard, but the rest was rebuilt). I would presume that it was probably adequate for the temporary traffic arrangement.
MDOT actually rebuilt Hiawatha Trail in Mackinac County before repairing the Cut River Bridge and making Hiawatha Trail the detour for US 2. Surprised they didn't do the same thing here. I also hope they don't notice and remove the state-named I-75 shield approaching the intersection with M-134...
P.S. Nobody, not even natives, has called it Dixie Highway since the '30s. It's just Google Maps being Google Maps.
Good point. Hell, even Mackinac County signs it as M-134, though clearly the state maintenance ends at the I-75 interchange. https://www.google.com/maps/@46.056883,-84.691552,3a,75y,347.76h,86.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sSyX3YIH6vtonZbHX3DPOPw!2e0
I drove to Sault Ste Marie today. The detour on Mackinac Hwy isn't too bad, even if it does have a couple of unnecessary temporary 45 MPH signs. A section south of M-48 is freshly repaved; there are barrels still on the shoulder and shoulder closed signs. No indication of what kind of work is happening on I-75. I saw a VMS on the SB side before M-80 stating wide load trucks could not use the detour.
At the northern end, the right lane is closed just beyond Easterday Ave exit (the last US exit). There are signs about a mile back announcing the closure. Wide load trucks going to Canada are told to exit at the rest area (the one north of 6 Mile Rd, not the Welcome Center) and phone.
A fun little quiz about I 75, pretty easy for roadgeeks. I scored 80% http://www.freep.com/interactive/article/20140713/FEATURES07/140711003/Quiz-you-an-1-75-road-warrior-Find-out
An article on the Mackinac Bridge aka "Mighty Mac" http://www.freep.com/article/20140803/NEWS06/308030060/mackinac-bridge-tour-view
An article on the readers picks of the "Top Ten Underrated attractions within 5 miles of I 75" http://www.freep.com/article/20140803/FEATURES07/140729015/michigan-i-75-attractions-travel
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 24, 2014, 09:24:40 PM
Quote from: halork on June 24, 2014, 05:17:31 AM
I see that MDOT has I-75 closed from M-134 to Rudyard for culvert replacement, and are detouring traffic onto Mackinac Trail. I know that Mackinac Trail was repaved several years ago, but I don't recall it being up to state highway standards. Also, how old is the Pine River Bridge south of Rudyard? Seems like it would be an "interesting" drive with all the I-75 traffic.
That seems odd. Why didn't MDOT just convert one side of the freeway into two-way traffic while they do the culverts on one carriageway, then switch them around to do the other one? You know, like every other rural, low traffic freeway project in the country.
Even culverts that span the entire freeway could be replaced half at a time. Shunting all the summer tourists onto surface roads doesn't seem like the best idea to me.
Unless this is an extremely short duration project...?
Just saw a column in the St. Ignace News that I-75 is still detoured; apparently they discovered problems with the Pine River bridges. The author wonders why the Mackinac Trail detour is still in place; asking why traffic is not routed onto one side of the freeway while the other is being fixed. :hmmm:
Northbound lanes of I-75 to reopen Friday
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-337713--,00.html (http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-337713--,00.html)
Northbound lanes of I-75 to reopen Friday
Contact: Dan Weingarten, MDOT Office of Communications,
WeingartenD@michigan.gov
906-485-6322, ext. 136
Agency: Transportation
Fast facts:
- The northbound lanes of I-75 in Chippewa and Mackinac counties will reopen this Friday.
- Work was originally planned to be done by the end of summer, but the discovery of additional needed work over the Pine River extended the detour into early fall.
- The southbound detour is expected to be lifted in approximately three weeks.
September 17, 2014 -- The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) expects to reopen the northbound lanes of I-75 in Chippewa and Mackinac counties this Friday afternoon, bringing half of this summer's I-75 detour to an end. Only temporary single-lane closures will be required on the northbound lanes during the coming weeks as the project is wrapped up.
Southbound lanes of I-75 will continue to be closed between M-134 and M-48, and motorists will be detoured via the Mackinac Trail.
"We can't thank motorists enough for their patience with our major I-75 projects this summer," said Pete Paramski, manager of MDOT's Newberry Transportation Service Center (TSC). "We're pleased that we are able to reopen the northbound lanes and we're anticipating opening the southbound lanes soon."
Two major projects were constructed within the closed stretch of I-75 this summer: culvert replacement on tributaries of the Pine River and bridge repairs over the Pine River. While MDOT engineers had planned to have both projects wrapped up by the end of August, crews discovered important structural steel repair work needed on the I-75 Pine River bridges. MDOT decided to add this work to the existing plans since the detour that would be required for the steel repair work was already in place. While the additional work has extended this year's detour into early fall, doing it now is saving time overall by not requiring crews to come back at a later time and detour this same stretch of I-75 all over again.
MDOT estimates the southbound detour will be lifted in approximately three weeks.
Roadway Work Zone Safety - We're All in This Together.
I-96 to open for Monday's (9/22) morning rush hour:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2014/09/21/i96-reopening/16015635/
I'm impressed. I hope the concrete this time around lasts a long time.
From the photos on the above link, I was surprised at the number of attendees. Betcha my cousin in Livonia was there.
Quote from: thenetwork on September 21, 2014, 09:28:45 PM
I'm impressed. I hope the concrete this time around lasts a long time.
From the photos on the above link, I was surprised at the number of attendees. Betcha my cousin in Livonia was there.
MDOT estimates around 10,000. I was thinking of going (I live a couple of miles south of the I-96/Newburgh Road interchange) but got tied up with household chores.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3827796,-83.3653007,3a,75y,267.61h,87.21t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sI6sqe3LRABHYHSnuOWKI9Q!2e0
So this is what I-96 looked like before, according to GM. It did need some work on it, lol.
I am interested to see what I-96 looks like after the reconstruction. Say what you must about roads in Michigan, MDOT usually does a pretty nice job of it once they get around to reconstructing things.
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on September 23, 2014, 05:30:18 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3827796,-83.3653007,3a,75y,267.61h,87.21t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sI6sqe3LRABHYHSnuOWKI9Q!2e0
So this is what I-96 looked like before, according to GM. It did need some work on it, lol.
That picture is about 3 years old. It was much worse than that before the rebuild, potholes and cracked asphalt galore. All those longitudinal seams had opened up.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on September 23, 2014, 06:08:08 PM
I am interested to see what I-96 looks like after the reconstruction. Say what you must about roads in Michigan, MDOT usually does a pretty nice job of it once they get around to reconstructing things.
They just have to make sure their trucks aren't eaten by potholes...........
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fholykaw.alltop.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2Fpothole262way-c29b34a827860e24330fb9c20b9987783e960427-s40-c85-744x420.jpg&hash=5e7a3c3729808c2879c795c458da4cde7a3914d4)
Quote from: catch22 on September 22, 2014, 11:16:52 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on September 21, 2014, 09:28:45 PM
I'm impressed. I hope the concrete this time around lasts a long time.
From the photos on the above link, I was surprised at the number of attendees. Betcha my cousin in Livonia was there.
MDOT estimates around 10,000. I was thinking of going (I live a couple of miles south of the I-96/Newburgh Road interchange) but got tied up with household chores.
A.J. Bertin and Rawmustard were both there. I would have gone if I'd been able to afford the gas, especially considering I missed the Southbelt Shuffle.
Anyway, here's an article about how the spelling changed on some signs that were replaced. MDOT changed Middlebelt to Middle Belt, and they say that Middle Belt is the correct spelling according to Wayne County:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2014/09/24/middle-belt-construction/16132055/
Quote from: getemngo on September 24, 2014, 07:39:40 PM
Quote from: catch22 on September 22, 2014, 11:16:52 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on September 21, 2014, 09:28:45 PM
I'm impressed. I hope the concrete this time around lasts a long time.
From the photos on the above link, I was surprised at the number of attendees. Betcha my cousin in Livonia was there.
MDOT estimates around 10,000. I was thinking of going (I live a couple of miles south of the I-96/Newburgh Road interchange) but got tied up with household chores.
A.J. Bertin and Rawmustard were both there. I would have gone if I'd been able to afford the gas, especially considering I missed the Southbelt Shuffle.
Anyway, here's an article about how the spelling changed on some signs that were replaced. MDOT changed Middlebelt to Middle Belt, and they say that Middle Belt is the correct spelling according to Wayne County:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2014/09/24/middle-belt-construction/16132055/
They just may be right, at least from a historical perspective. I posted a link on the other thread about this.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=6625.msg2008953#msg2008953
Ahh, my bad. I missed that.
I do wonder where MDOT gets their spellings. For instance, East Beltline Ave. in Grand Rapids is signed "E Belt Line Ave" on I-96 and has been for a long time, since the signs are in FHWA font. All municipalities along it consider Beltline one word, and I assume it always has been... see the Beltline Bar on M-11 (which was the planned South Beltline before M-6 was built).
Governor Snyder has been talking nonstop over the last couple weeks about fixing Michigan's roads. Looks like the state legislature is working on a plan (http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2014/12/snyder_leaders_tout_michigan_r.html) to increase funding.
Most notable: the possibility of a ballot proposal in May to raise the state sales tax from 6% to 7%.
The legislature punted on the issue.
This past summer, the state of Michigan completely replaced former state route M-151, which connected US-23 to US-24 & I-75 in Monroe County. The road had been deteriorating and uncared for for going on 50 years, and was and absolute gold mine for auto repair shops. The new road is such a pleasant drive.
It's been fairly quiet, but H.B. 5072 is being prepared to go to the governor's desk. This bill will rename the Michigan Heritage Routes to Pure Michigan Byways. Once signed, the law will go into immediate effect. MDOT will then have a year from enactment to obtain a trademark license from the Michigan Economic Development Corporation, the owners of the "Pure Michigan" trademark, and design the new signage. No word on how fast the signs may be changed, but word is that MDOT has no more of the older Heritage Route signs in inventory. The bill doesn't specify a timeframe to change existing signage, and the House Fiscal Agency report called the bill revenue neutral because signage would only have to be swapped as needed.
Because when I think of a byway, I think of I-69 in Branch and Calhoun counties... (currently a Recreational Heritage route)
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 19, 2014, 08:15:35 AM
The legislature punted on the issue.
More fully: The voters will decide in May whether to increase the state sales tax from 6% to 7%, with the extra sales tax money going toward road funding.
Quote from: DanTheMan414 on December 19, 2014, 05:27:06 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 19, 2014, 08:15:35 AM
The legislature punted on the issue.
More fully: The voters will decide in May whether to increase the state sales tax from 6% to 7%, with the extra sales tax money going toward road funding.
You can't call it a punt. Any changes to the sales tax require voter approval, period. The sales tax rate is written into the Michigan Constitution of 1963, Article IX, §8, so any changes to it are a constitutional amendment which requires voter approval, a fact left out of
nearly every news report on the road funding plans.
Michigan has a crazy system of taxing fuel. Assume the price of gas listed on the sign is $2.499:
- The portion charged by the station is $1.994/gal.
- The federal excise tax of $0.184/gal is added. Price is now $2.178/gal.
- The state sales tax of 6% is added. Price is now $2.309/gal.
- The state excise tax of $0.190/gal for gasoline is added. Price is now the $2.499/gal listed on the pump.
The net result is that Michigan drivers are taxed $0.505/gal on gasoline in this scenario, but the $0.131/gal in sales taxes does not go to roads. Of that sales tax, 1/3 goes into the state educational fund and 2/3 goes into the general fund for regular state appropriations. That sales tax is how Michigan can have such a high overall taxation on fuel and a low overall expenditure on transportation. And yes, we literally tax a tax in Michigan.
The one plan from the State House was to eliminate the 6% sales tax on fuel sales and increase the state excise tax rate such that the overall price of fuel would essentially stay the same. The rub is that schools and the general fund would be hit, and the plan would still have had to go to the voters for approval.
The other plan from the State Senate was to increase the state excise tax rate. Sure, it would have increased the tax revenues for transportation, but it would not have eliminated this disparity between higher overall taxation on fuel and low transportation overall revenues because of the sale tax.
The current plan going before the voters is essentially a combination of the two approaches and will raise the sales tax to 7%. It also eliminates the sales tax on fuels as of October 1, 2015. So the increased tax rate is to offset the loss of sales taxes on fuel sales. In addition, a package of bills are "tie-barred" onto the constitutional amendment and only go into effect if the ballot proposal passes.
- One provision converts the fuel excise tax into a wholesale tax that will cause it to rise. The rate will be 14.9% on all fuels, not a flat $0.19/gal for gasoline and $0/15/gal for diesels , although there are some minimums and maximums on that to even out fluctuations.
- The initial extra revenues for transportation will pay down some bonds at first before being dedicated into new projects.
- Vehicle values for registration fees will be frozen at the initial purchase value. Currently they drop 10%/year for 3 years before they are frozen.
- Electric and hybrid vehicles would see their registration fees increase. Registration fees, less the administrative value retained by the Secretary of State, would still be remitted to the transportation fund, so these extra revenues would be passed to road funding.
This will mean that come October next year, all of our taxes paid on gasoline in Michigan will be wholesale taxes that go to transportation uses only, unlike the current system where some of our gas tax doesn't go to transportation at all.
Michigan is getting its first death diamond (http://michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008-344440--,00.html) next year.
(Thanks to rawmustard for bringing this up on Facebook.)
The I-94 is closed near Battle Creek due to a 150 vehicle accident!😒
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on January 09, 2015, 02:25:00 PM
The I-94 is closed near Battle Creek due to a 150 vehicle accident!😒
Saw it on here: http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/09/michigan-freeway-crash/21498891/
Due to snow, and they were only going 45 mph.
That was quite the impromptu fireworks show. :?
Not to make light of a horrible pile-up, but having one of the trucks stuffed with fireworks is the kind of thing you imagine when you're 8 years old and smashing your matchbox cars together because you want to recreate movie explosion scenarios.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on January 09, 2015, 02:25:00 PM
The I-94 is closed near Battle Creek due to a 150 vehicle accident!😒
Another one around the same time about 10 miles south of Ann Arbor ...
http://topics.mlive.com/tag/U.S.-23-pileup/posts.html#incart_std
... and they want to raise the speed limit to 80 ... :confused:
May God help us all.
Well, even if you did raise the speed limit to 80, you shouldn't be doing that on snow and ice, that's pretty universal anywhere.
Quote from: tdindy88 on January 10, 2015, 04:09:34 PM
Well, even if you did raise the speed limit to 80, you shouldn't be doing that on snow and ice, that's pretty universal anywhere.
According to the News article, they might have been going 45 or less when the accidents occurred.
Two things these stretches of freeway have in common:
- They're both 4-lane freeway facilities
- They carry heavy traffic loads (particularly commercial truck traffic)
MDOT reports that in 2013, the stretch of I-94 that was closed received 50,800 vehicles per day on average, 9,100 of which were commercial trucks. For the affected stretch of US-23, 44,300 vehicles (including 6,900 commercial trucks) traversed that stretch per day.
Make no mistake, these are very busy highways.
Under normal conditions, 4 lanes provides an acceptable level of service. In those kinds of conditions, though, it's way too much traffic, way too close together, paying insufficient attention, and going way too fast. If someone makes a wrong move, there's nowhere for traffic behind him to go.
6-laning both stretches would've given opportunity for traffic to stretch out more, and thus more room to avoid accidents. It's one area where Michigan's under-investment in its highways is coming back to bite it in the ass.
On a separate note, I will frequently opt for 2-lane alternatives when weather conditions are poor, not because the roads themselves are safer, but due to the lower traffic volume reducing opportunities for fellow motorists to take me out.
"If the highway was six lanes instead of four, it just means we would have had six lanes blocked," said Nick Schirripa, MDOT spokesman.
"This boiled down to driver behavior," he said. "People were driving too fast and following too closely on an icy freeway during a white-out."
Schirripa was responding to widespread chatter on the Internet that the pile-up proves I-94 needs to be widened or otherwise improved in eastern Kalamazoo County.
"People are jumping up and down and saying, 'You need to change the road,' " Schirripa said. "That's ridiculous. This isn't about the road."
MDOT: Michigan I-94 pile-up result of 'driver behavior,' not road design
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2015/01/mdot_michigan_i-94_pile-up_res.html#incart_most-read_news_article
I agree with Mr. Schirripa that driver behavior deserves blame - quite frankly, it deserves most of it.
But he's full of it to think that 6-laning wouldn't make this stretch of highway safer.
Drivers can pay Mackinac Bridge toll with credit cards starting in May (http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/01/drivers_can_swipe_credit_cars.html)
Welcome to the 21st Century, Mr. Mighty Mac.
Starting in mid-May, drivers traversing the 58-year-old Mackinac Bridge can begin swiping a credit card to pay the toll for crossing the five-mile span.
Credit cards are accepted at the bridge now, but only in the administration building. Tolls are $2 per axle or $4 per car.
The toll booth upgrade comes amid a coordinated software update to systems at the Mackinac Bridge, the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie, and the Blue Water Bridge in Port Huron, according to the Michigan Department of Transportation.
Someone in the comments section suggested MDOT start using EZPass. I'm not sure how much that would cost to implement or how many people would actually use it, considering it's the only freeway tollbooth in the state not at an international border crossing.
Quote from: getemngo on January 16, 2015, 03:57:25 PM
Drivers can pay Mackinac Bridge toll with credit cards starting in May (http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/01/drivers_can_swipe_credit_cars.html)
Welcome to the 21st Century, Mr. Mighty Mac.
Starting in mid-May, drivers traversing the 58-year-old Mackinac Bridge can begin swiping a credit card to pay the toll for crossing the five-mile span.
Credit cards are accepted at the bridge now, but only in the administration building. Tolls are $2 per axle or $4 per car.
The toll booth upgrade comes amid a coordinated software update to systems at the Mackinac Bridge, the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie, and the Blue Water Bridge in Port Huron, according to the Michigan Department of Transportation.
Someone in the comments section suggested MDOT start using EZPass. I'm not sure how much that would cost to implement or how many people would actually use it, considering it's the only freeway tollbooth in the state not at an international border crossing.
EZPass would be fairly easy for them to implement as they have a large number of tourists from I-Pass territory. If they would team up with ISTHA or the OTIC, they could implement a system easily. All they'd need to do is add the equipment to each lane. The Bridge does not need OTR lanes. It's not that busy.
Quote from: Brandon on January 16, 2015, 05:03:55 PM
EZPass would be fairly easy for them to implement as they have a large number of tourists from I-Pass territory. If they would team up with ISTHA or the OTIC, they could implement a system easily. All they'd need to do is add the equipment to each lane. The Bridge does not need OTR lanes. It's not that busy.
Moreover, we don't necessarily WANT open-road tolling here. It's a congested location with the state park and Welcome Center right at the bridge. I can see the benefit of EZPass here - for the convenience factor and speeding up of fare processing, not for any cost-savings.
The Detroit Free Press has a section of articles discussing the pending Proposal 1 vote:
http://www.freep.com/topic/f55af817-0d0b-4687-8e57-9818ab5e4ff5/proposal-1-voters-guide/
The Lansing State Journal has two articles discussing the results of a recent MDOT audit. It does not bode well for the upcoming gas tax proposal.
Michigan's highway department repeatedly hires contractors whose work requires fixes, hasn't tracked contractors who've failed to fix their work, and relies on a faulty federal program to weed out bad actors.
The Michigan Department of Transportation says 13% of warrantied roads jobs have required corrective action. But documented weaknesses in MDOT's oversight beg the questions: How many needed fixes have been missed? And what might be wrong on the 55% to 65% of MDOT jobs that aren't warrantied?
Many lawmakers are fuming over those questions as voters are asked May 5 to take on $1.2 billion a year in new roads taxes and expand the troubled warranty program to local roads.
After 18 years, MDOT 'still learning' troubled oversight program
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/watchdog/2015/04/19/years-mdot-still-learning-troubled-oversight-program/25947137/ (http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/watchdog/2015/04/19/years-mdot-still-learning-troubled-oversight-program/25947137/)
State audits show a pattern of quality-control problems in highway construction projects worth billions of dollars dating to 1997 – the year the Legislature mandated Michigan's road-warranty program.
Many shortcomings are concentrated in the warranty program the Michigan Department of Transportation applies to contractors who pave the state's most-traveled roads and who paint thousands of bridges to protect against corrosion.
Auditors documented failures to follow law and internal policies, exposed accountability issues and noted MDOT's difficulty in resolving issues it promised to fix.
Audits detail MDOT's warranty woes
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2015/04/19/mdot-road-warranty-audits/25953733/ (http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2015/04/19/mdot-road-warranty-audits/25953733/)
Poll: 61% say they'll vote no on Mich. road Proposal 1
Reasons for voting no cited by respondents include: too much in the proposal (31%); taxes are already too high (22%); wasteful government spending (13%); and distrust of Michigan government (11%).
http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/04/30/poll-oppose-michigan-proposal-one-road-funding-sales-tax/26658413/ (http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/04/30/poll-oppose-michigan-proposal-one-road-funding-sales-tax/26658413/)
I can't say I'm surprised. This would've worked much better had lawmakers simply raised the gas taxes, then presented the proposal that would've killed sales taxes on fuel but bumped the rate to 7%.
Oh, and on a side note, the damage to the guardrails from the I-94 pileup last January is still not fixed, at least as of Monday. Ditto for long stretches of cable barrier on I-94 west of Kalamazoo.
Just how bad are the roads in Michigan? And what can be done to fix them?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 01, 2015, 06:59:38 PM
Just how bad are the roads in Michigan? And what can be done to fix them?
It's bad enough that they're reverting some paved roads back to gravel, because they can't afford to fix them.
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2010/02/return_to_stone_age_reverting.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2010/02/return_to_stone_age_reverting.html)
The consensus is that Michigan needs to invest more money into roads. Where there's disagreement is how to pay for it.
Annnnd... Proposal 1 goes down in flames, to the shock and amazement of nobody:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/05/05/angry-voters-reject-proposal-michigan-roads-await-viable-fix/26950451/
Proposal 1 fails; state lawmakers back to drawing board
http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/05/05/proposal-one-michigan-road-fail-alternatives-plans/26947533/
I heard very few people complain about Proposal 1 because of the sales tax hike. Almost all the opposition seemed to be "This is confusing and convoluted", "It's going to take too long for the road funding to fully kick in", and "I don't trust all the money to go where they say it will go."
While I'd be happy to see the gas tax tied to inflation, the gas tax funding only transportation, and more quality control of MDOT, I voted for Proposal 1 almost solely because I felt like it's the only chance we'll get for any improvement. Beggars can't be choosers. The Michigan Legislature can't agree on a course of action for our highways, and I don't see that changing soon.
But the public isn't exactly eager to rush out and vote for "At least it's something, I guess." I don't agree with the public, but I can sympathize. And maybe the landslide will convince the Legislature that we're fed up with half-baked solutions and demand something better. :rolleyes:
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 01, 2015, 06:59:38 PM
Just how bad are the roads in Michigan? And what can be done to fix them?
They're not that bad. Michigan has a lower fuel tax than Illinois, and yet the roads are in much better shape and seem to last for far longer.
Quote from: Brandon on May 06, 2015, 01:19:23 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 01, 2015, 06:59:38 PM
Just how bad are the roads in Michigan? And what can be done to fix them?
They're not that bad. Michigan has a lower fuel tax than Illinois, and yet the roads are in much better shape and seem to last for far longer.
Obviously, you do not live here.
Michigan's idea of repairing roads involves a one-half-inch thick layer of asphalt, and hope it lasts till Election Day.
Roads repaired in this manner last fall are already toast.
Quote from: renegade on May 06, 2015, 02:24:31 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 06, 2015, 01:19:23 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 01, 2015, 06:59:38 PM
Just how bad are the roads in Michigan? And what can be done to fix them?
They're not that bad. Michigan has a lower fuel tax than Illinois, and yet the roads are in much better shape and seem to last for far longer.
Obviously, you do not live here.
Michigan's idea of repairing roads involves a one-half-inch thick layer of asphalt, and hope it lasts till Election Day.
Roads repaired in this manner last fall are already toast.
I've driven in Michigan very often and went to college there. I can assure you, Illinois's roads are in worse shape.
I've lived in 4 different corners of Michigan (western UP, eastern UP, metro Grand Rapids, metro Detroit) and spent a year commuting to Lansing, and I don't think Michigan's roads as a whole are awful in terms of maintenance. Haven't seen much of Illinois, but I'd rate Michigan above Pennsylvania or New York.
Our biggest financial problems are building new roads/adding capacity and replacing bridges. Keeping the pavement smooth everywhere else seems to be going acceptably — not great, but acceptably.
As an aside, the statistic that Michigan spends the least money per capita for roads in the Great Lakes area is misleading. We have the lowest percentage of roads that are state maintained in the nation, so of course we're going to spend less money.
Here we go again! I-75 will be completely closed south of Sault Ste. Marie starting Wednesday for culvert replacement. This time, the marked detour will be M-28 east to M-129, south to M-80, west to Gaines Highway, back to I-75. All the locals and anyone familiar with the area will ignore that and take Mackinac Trail instead. I wonder why they didn't use Mackinac Trail as the official detour like they did last year to the south. :confused: I still don't understand why they can't reroute traffic between the carriageways for projects like this. :confused: Estimated project completion: "July." :-D
It's strange that they wouldn't just do one side at a time and shift all the traffic onto the other side. I-75 in the UP has light enough traffic that a mile or two of lane closures won't really affect anything.
I wonder if Mackinac Trail isn't used as a detour because of weight limits? IIRC, it's a road that has seasonal truck restrictions, so even though it's summer, it probably wasn't built for big trucks.
It's not state-maintained, and MDOT would have to kick funds over to Chippewa and Mackinac counties for extra maintenance if they designated it the official detour route.
It's galling that they couldn't pull off all of the culvert repairs during last year's complete shutdown!
A little question - how common are 'doghouse' style stop-and-go light heads in Michigan?
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on June 09, 2015, 10:02:41 PM
A little question - how common are 'doghouse' style stop-and-go light heads in Michigan?
Mike
I'd say they're not too hard to find for right turn signals, especially after box spans (4 spanwires instead of one diagonal wire) were introduced a decade or so ago.
Left turn doghouses are fairly rare, but they do exist. Michigan St. in Grand Rapids has a bunch, for instance, though at least one of those intersections switched to the FYA this year.
In Detroit news... MDOT is still figuring out (http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2015/06/08/mdot-right-size-project/28697179/) exactly what it wants to do in terms of rebuilding I-94. A start date of 2019 and completion in September 2036? :wow: :wow: :wow: I hope that's a typo. But then, a few years ago I saw 2030 as the completion date for US 127 between St. Johns and Ithaca, and that's the sort of project Indians does in a year and a half.
In Grand Rapids news... the city wants, among other things, for MDOT to add ramps and reconfigure the I-196/Ottawa Ave interchange (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/06/roundabout_reconfigured_i-196.html). This is interesting because this portion of I-196 was reconstructed and widened just a few years ago.
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 15, 2015, 12:37:12 AM
It's not state-maintained, and MDOT would have to kick funds over to Chippewa and Mackinac counties for extra maintenance if they designated it the official detour route.
It's galling that they couldn't pull off all of the culvert repairs during last year's complete shutdown!
Last year, the official detour
was over Mackinac Trail, with the oversize/overweight detour to M-129.
Quote from: getemngo on June 10, 2015, 03:22:02 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 09, 2015, 10:02:41 PM
A little question - how common are 'doghouse' style stop-and-go light heads in Michigan?
Mike
I'd say they're not too hard to find for right turn signals, especially after box spans (4 spanwires instead of one diagonal wire) were introduced a decade or so ago.
Left turn doghouses are fairly rare, but they do exist. Michigan St. in Grand Rapids has a bunch, for instance, though at least one of those intersections switched to the FYA this year.
Thanx. I was wondering because I found one strung up where US 41 makes its 90 degree intersection turn in Menominee when I was driving around in the area yesterday.
(Streetview: https://goo.gl/maps/qSLi1 )
Mke
Found some neat maps of various proposals for the original route of I-696. Keep scrolling, as there's more goodies halfway down page 1 and on page 2: I-696 Location Alternatives - What Could Have Been (http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?19231-I-696-Location-Alternatives-What-Could-Have-Been)
Stolen from rawmustard's Facebook: After 23 years the M-231 bypass is getting set to open in Ottawa County (http://fox17online.com/2015/08/19/after-23-years-the-m-231-bypass-is-getting-set-to-open-in-ottawa-county/)
Of course, this is half its originally planned length and a Super-2 instead of a freeway, and it's probably all we'll have for the next 20 years. Woo.
I found it interesting that its Grand River bridge will be the 7th "largest" (longest?) bridge in Michigan, that it will be only the fourth Grand River crossing in Ottawa County (after M-45, 68th Ave, and US 31), and that Ottawa County is the state's fastest growing county.
"Well, the bridge is 3,700 feet, a little less than a quarter of a mile," said Tellier. I hope the project engineers are alittle better at math than this.
Mother nature hates Labor Day Mackinac City travelers. US-31 in Emmet County has collapsed pavement due to an underground spring.
Northern Mich. U.S.-31 detour to be Labor Day headache
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/09/02/mackinac-bridge-mdot-labor-day-holiday-road-detour-northern-michigan/71595162/
I drove in Michigan yesterday, and noticed that many new signs are text instead of using symbols. In Iron Mountain, I saw a "divided highway" and "divided highway ends," along with reduced speed ahead yellow warning signs without reference to the lower speed limit ahead on US 2 and US 41. Does MDOT prefer text over symbols? Wisconsin did for the longest time until the last 10 years where almost all warning signs are replaced with symbols.
The reduced speed warning signs appear to simply be an attempt to not have to stock different signs for varying speeds. It's MDOT going cheap.
Has our nightmare finally ended?
Deal: $1.2B road funding plan heads to Michigan Gov. Snyder's desk after legislative approval (http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2015/11/12b_road_funding_plan_heads_to.html)
MDOT has previously said that it needs at least $1 billion in additional funding just to keep up with maintenance. Under the latest bill, $600 million of this funding would come from a hike in the gas tax and vehicle registration fees, and the other $600 million will be siphoned from the general fund.
Quote from: getemngo on November 03, 2015, 11:25:30 PM
Has our nightmare finally ended?
Nope. Snidely and his cronies have successfully kicked the can far enough down the road. By the time this plan is fully implemented, we will have forgotten why we are paying more in fuel taxes and registration fees. Meanwhile, nothing will get done to the roads.
My $140/year, twelve-year-old Ford pickup will soon be $190 annually. I don't want to think about what the fuel tax increase will look like at the pump.
M-185 in downtown Mackinac Island will be repaved next fall. An excerpt from the St. Ignace News (behind paywall for 4 weeks):
QuoteTypically, when asphalt is poured, cars can drive on it after four hours when the surface has cooled. While the deeper asphalt may still be warm, a car's rubber tires can roll over the road and not affect the surface. But when Main Street is repaved next fall, traffic will have to wait eight hours before using the road, mainly because horse hooves could depress the asphalt.
"We're used to rubber tires, not horse shoes," project engineer David Rusch said at the Street Committee meeting in September. "Let's wait eight hours to be conservative."
http://www.stignacenews.com/ (http://www.stignacenews.com/)
Quote from: halork on November 06, 2015, 04:21:24 AM
M-185 in downtown Mackinac Island will be repaved next fall. An excerpt from the St. Ignace News (behind paywall for 4 weeks):
QuoteTypically, when asphalt is poured, cars can drive on it after four hours when the surface has cooled. While the deeper asphalt may still be warm, a car's rubber tires can roll over the road and not affect the surface. But when Main Street is repaved next fall, traffic will have to wait eight hours before using the road, mainly because horse hooves could depress the asphalt.
"We're used to rubber tires, not horse shoes," project engineer David Rusch said at the Street Committee meeting in September. "Let's wait eight hours to be conservative."
http://www.stignacenews.com/ (http://www.stignacenews.com/)
Hooves concentrate a LOT of weight into a small surface area. It's why horses are prohibited on many public recreational trails.
Mike
MDOT's draft 5 year plan for 2016-2020 is out.
Interesting projects on the horizon:
- A reconstruction of I-94 through Jackson is scheduled for 2018, between M-60 and Sargent Rd. Given traffic counts and the list of bridges being replaced on the stretch, I can safely speculate that it would be 6-laned only between the US-127 North and US-127 South interchanges, reconstructing only the original 4 lanes east and west of there. There's preparatory work scheduled for key highways into and out of Jackson for 2016 and 2017.
- I-94 reconstruction in Detroit between Chene St (just E of I-75/I-375) and Connor Ave scheduled for 2018-2019.
- Bridge replacements on US-23 between M-14 and I-96, suggesting preparations are underway for 6-laning this stretch of freeway. Oddly, no mention of any widening or rehab of the US-23 mainline. EDIT: MDOT's current plan is to create a temporary third lane in the peak travel direction during rush hours, due to lack of funding for actual 6-laning.
- I-94 widening to 6-lanes between Portage Rd/Kilgore Rd and Sprinkle Rd in Kalamazoo.
- Two major projects on I-75 in Oakland County to either rehab or reconstruct the roadway
- Reconstruct/widen US-31 in Holland
- Reconstruction of portions of US-131 north of Grand Rapids
- Reconstruction of portions of I-475 in Flint.
Decision on I-375 delayed indefinitely (http://www.freep.com/story/money/business/michigan/2016/01/25/detroit-mdot-i375-riverfront/79293830/)
A recommendation on what to do with Detroit's aging I-375 expressway, originally expected more than a year ago, has now been delayed indefinitely.
...
[MDOT spokesperson] Wallace said six options outlined two years ago remain on the table. Those include rebuilding I-375 as is as a below-grade expressway or replacing it with a surface street that would connect better with the rapidly redeveloping east riverfront district. The various options would cost from about $45 million to $80 million for design and construction.
I don't think downtown Detroit would be better off if Interstate 375 were demolished. Personally, I would just reconstruct it mostly as-is.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 27, 2015, 11:41:05 PM
MDOT's draft 5 year plan for 2016-2020 is out.
Interesting projects on the horizon:
- A reconstruction of I-94 through Jackson is scheduled for 2018, between M-60 and Sargent Rd. Given traffic counts and the list of bridges being replaced on the stretch, I can safely speculate that it would be 6-laned only between the US-127 North and US-127 South interchanges, reconstructing only the original 4 lanes east and west of there. There's preparatory work scheduled for key highways into and out of Jackson for 2016 and 2017.
- I-94 reconstruction in Detroit between Chene St (just E of I-75/I-375) and Connor Ave scheduled for 2018-2019.
- Bridge replacements on US-23 between M-14 and I-96, suggesting preparations are underway for 6-laning this stretch of freeway. Oddly, no mention of any widening or rehab of the US-23 mainline. EDIT: MDOT's current plan is to create a temporary third lane in the peak travel direction during rush hours, due to lack of funding for actual 6-laning.
- I-94 widening to 6-lanes between Portage Rd/Kilgore Rd and Sprinkle Rd in Kalamazoo.
- Two major projects on I-75 in Oakland County to either rehab or reconstruct the roadway
- Reconstruct/widen US-31 in Holland
- Reconstruction of portions of US-131 north of Grand Rapids
- Reconstruction of portions of I-475 in Flint.
The bridge replacements over 23 would save a little bit of $$$ when US-23 is finally six-laned from Brighton to Ann Arbor. Also, 94/127, being two freeways merged together, should have been six-laned years ago (heck, even 10/127 near Clare has been six lanes for years!)
Very recently (as in, within the last few weeks), M-5 reassurance assemblies have appeared on Grand River Avenue between I-96/Schaefer Road and downtown Detroit, with an END M-5 assembly posted just before the the end of the state-maintained trunkline at Cass Avenue. This stretch has been an unsigned trunkline for umpteen years (and even appears in "trunkline red" on all MDOT maps) but now either (1) someone made a mistake or (2) MDOT finally decided to stop screwing around and extend the M-5 designation, seeing as the road already is under its jurisdiction.
This weekend, after clinching US 2 in Michigan, I noticed something peculiar about its mile markers. There are mile markers beginning at its western entrance near Ironwood, ascending as they go east, like they should. Eventually they disappear, I think somewhere in Iron County.
But then in Mackinac County, there are new mile markers that start at Mile 62 (the Mackinac-Schoolcraft county line) and count down as you head east, with Mile 1 appearing a mile before US 2's eastern terminus!
While I appreciate being able to know exactly how far from I-75 I am, the Mackinac County markers are numbered in the wrong direction. What happens if the eastern and western series of mile markers ever meet!?
Quote from: getemngo on August 01, 2016, 07:08:06 PM
While I appreciate being able to know exactly how far from I-75 I am, the Mackinac County markers are numbered in the wrong direction. What happens if the eastern and western series of mile markers ever meet!?
Annihilation. You end up with US 0.
Quote from: getemngo on August 01, 2016, 07:08:06 PM
While I appreciate being able to know exactly how far from I-75 I am, the Mackinac County markers are numbered in the wrong direction. What happens if the eastern and western series of mile markers ever meet!?
US 2's dip back into Wisconsin is in the way of that happening. Presumably the extensions of these systems would end on either side of such.
Quote from: Duke87 on August 01, 2016, 08:59:21 PM
Quote from: getemngo on August 01, 2016, 07:08:06 PM
While I appreciate being able to know exactly how far from I-75 I am, the Mackinac County markers are numbered in the wrong direction. What happens if the eastern and western series of mile markers ever meet!?
US 2's dip back into Wisconsin is in the way of that happening. Presumably the extensions of these systems would end on either side of such.
In 2004, I drove US 2 between Iron Mountain and Escanaba, and the milemarkers continued through Dickinson and Menominee counties based off the mileage from Ironwood, even accounting for the mileage from the dip back into Wisconsin.
No solution for crumbling M-6, says concrete expert (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2016/09/no_solution_for_crumbling_m-6.html)
It's the concrete section of M-6 from I-196 to Wilson Ave, built in 2004, that this article says needs help. I've heard through the grapevine (but not through any official sources) that MDOT cheaped out during construction and used a synthetic air entraining agent, which means the concrete doesn't have very good freeze/thaw resistance.
The eastern third of M-6, which is asphalt and built in 2001, has also had premature aging issues. (Yes, they built phase 1 with asphalt and switched to concrete for the rest!)
Can Michigan not build roads right the first time? This has happened to other Michigan roads in the past; e.g. Interstate 275.
New signage is going up on I-94 east of Benton Harbor to at least I-69. Oddly enough, most of that new signage appears to be in Clearview.
I didn't get a chance to take pictures. :(
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 03, 2016, 09:08:53 PM
New signage is going up on I-94 east of Benton Harbor to at least I-69. Oddly enough, most of that new signage appears to be in Clearview.
I believe MDOT is replacing I-94 signage in Calhoun Co and in Berrien and Van Buren Cos. I work in Kalamazoo and I don't believe they're doing a comprehensive sign replacement in Kalamazoo County at this point, but I hear it may happen soon.
Quote from: bessertc on October 05, 2016, 08:48:09 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 03, 2016, 09:08:53 PM
New signage is going up on I-94 east of Benton Harbor to at least I-69. Oddly enough, most of that new signage appears to be in Clearview.
I believe MDOT is replacing I-94 signage in Calhoun Co and in Berrien and Van Buren Cos. I work in Kalamazoo and I don't believe they're doing a comprehensive sign replacement in Kalamazoo County at this point, but I hear it may happen soon.
I drove through a couple weeks ago. I distinctly remember replacement signage being installed east of Sprinkle Rd, complete with new .2 mile milemarkers. They may not be replacing signage through the recently-constructed sections in Kalamazoo, but it's happening east of Sprinkle Rd.
Quote from: bessertc on October 05, 2016, 08:48:09 AM
I believe MDOT is replacing I-94 signage in Calhoun Co and in Berrien and Van Buren Cos. I work in Kalamazoo and I don't believe they're doing a comprehensive sign replacement in Kalamazoo County at this point, but I hear it may happen soon.
I noticed new signposts on 131 north of I-94 last Sunday, but didn't see any on I-94 west of Sprinkle.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 27, 2016, 05:19:59 PM
Can Michigan not build roads right the first time? This has happened to other Michigan roads in the past; e.g. Interstate 275.
But... they've learned so much since then! :rolleyes: They've said so on the Revive275.com website.
Lots of photos of the Mackinac Bridge construction:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1159654280823942&id=136564303132950
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 27, 2015, 11:41:05 PM
MDOT's draft 5 year plan for 2016-2020 is out.
Interesting projects on the horizon:
- A reconstruction of I-94 through Jackson is scheduled for 2018, between M-60 and Sargent Rd. Given traffic counts and the list of bridges being replaced on the stretch, I can safely speculate that it would be 6-laned only between the US-127 North and US-127 South interchanges, reconstructing only the original 4 lanes east and west of there. There's preparatory work scheduled for key highways into and out of Jackson for 2016 and 2017.
MDOT replaced the bridges carrying US-127 over I-94 (eastern interchange) in 2014 but didn't replace the abutments and bridge columns to allow for future I-94 widening. That pretty much told us right then there were no plans to widen.
OT: MDOT didn't print the 2016 Paving the Way construction map for public distribution. They printed a few copies for posting at rest areas, but otherwise it is available only online for viewing or printing it yourself.
2017 construction map: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_C_MapWeb-2011_350547_7.pdf
Be underwhelmed. Outside of metro Detroit, it's pretty light on actual construction work.
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 07, 2017, 11:56:31 PM
2017 construction map: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_C_MapWeb-2011_350547_7.pdf
Be underwhelmed. Outside of metro Detroit, it's pretty light on actual construction work.
"#93: I-696 -- Upgrade freeway signs 20.2 miles from I-275 to Dequindre Road."
Freaking waste. Signs between I-275 and M-10 are only a dozen years old and in perfectly good condition. Even the signs between M-10 and Dequindre, which are 20+ years old (Gothic-font BGSs) are in good condition.
New BGSs started going up this past week. Clearview font. Raise your hand if you're surprised.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 28, 2016, 04:08:57 PM
I don't think downtown Detroit would be better off if Interstate 375 were demolished. Personally, I would just reconstruct it mostly as-is.
No becasue all the land would just stay vacant like it did in Milwaukee. If it wasn't for the new Bucks arena who knows what would have happened. We already know that's not happening in Detroit becasue they are already getting a new arena as we speak.
When MDOT reconstructed the approach to the Blue Water Bridge, they connected the original direct ramp to M-25 NB to the express lanes to Canada of I-94/69, however it's closed with no apparent plans to reopen it. Was closing it off one of the measures taken to reduce confusion between the local and international lanes, or is there another reason?
Street View doesn't show anything between 2008, which was way before the project, and 2013, when it was already at its current configuration.
Quote from: Roadsguy on March 31, 2017, 12:35:16 AM
When MDOT reconstructed the approach to the Blue Water Bridge, they connected the original direct ramp to M-25 NB to the express lanes to Canada of I-94/69, however it's closed with no apparent plans to reopen it. Was closing it off one of the measures taken to reduce confusion between the local and international lanes, or is there another reason?
Street View doesn't show anything between 2008, which was way before the project, and 2013, when it was already at its current configuration.
MDOT caved in to downtown Port Huron business owners who complained that end-of-freeway traffic was funneled northward, away from downtown. It's supposedly easier for traffic to reach downtn now.
From MDOT's Twitter:
SIGNS: US-2, M-28 in the UP will get new mile marker posts. Numbers run W to E, starting in Gogebic County. Installation planned this summer
Quote from: mhh on March 31, 2017, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on March 31, 2017, 12:35:16 AM
When MDOT reconstructed the approach to the Blue Water Bridge, they connected the original direct ramp to M-25 NB to the express lanes to Canada of I-94/69, however it's closed with no apparent plans to reopen it. Was closing it off one of the measures taken to reduce confusion between the local and international lanes, or is there another reason?
Street View doesn't show anything between 2008, which was way before the project, and 2013, when it was already at its current configuration.
MDOT caved in to downtown Port Huron business owners who complained that end-of-freeway traffic was funneled northward, away from downtown. It's supposedly easier for traffic to reach downtn now.
There was supposed to be another phase following the I-69/I-94 reconstruction and widening: Realignment of Pine Grove Avenue to the west along the old M-25 connector road and then east back to current alignment. This was going to be done to provide room for expansion of the U.S. border crossing facilities. I assumed that temporarily connecting this ramp to the new Canada-bound lanes (although keeping it blocked off) and not doing anything to rehabilitate/improve the bridge carrying westbound I-69/I-94 over that ramp was done because both would have been eliminated in the next phase of construction. Due to cost considerations, Homeland Security called off the whole thing.
Question for everyone who's been to Mackinaw Island-- have you seen any M-185 signs posted? If so, where on the island did you find them?
I remember this sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.8505317,-84.6163155,3a,15y,207.62h,81.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqvxO3OCV6ZCJ5rElryCQsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
I always found Mackinaw Island's M-185 designation to be odd, considering that motor vehicle traffic is banned from using the roadway.
List of Michigan highways and freeways with new increased speed limits (first three on the list effective May 1, others to come later this year):
Limited-access freeways (75 MPH)
I-75 — Bay City to US-23 in Mackinaw City (Bay, Arenac, Ogemaw, Roscommon, Crawford, Otsego, Cheboygan, and Emmet counties), and St. Ignace to Sault Ste. Marie (Mackinac and Chippewa counties)
US-127 — I-69 to the end of the freeway at St. Johns (Clinton County), and the beginning of the freeway at Ithaca to I-75 (Gratiot, Isabella, Clare, Roscommon, and Crawford counties)
US-131 — M-57 to the end of the freeway north of Manton (Kent, Montcalm, Mecosta, Osceola, and Wexford counties)
I-69 — I-69 Business Route (Saginaw Highway) to Swartz Creek (Clinton, Shiawassee, and Genesee counties)
I-69 — From the Genesee/Lapeer county line to I-94 (Genesee, Lapeer, and St. Clair counties)
US-10 — M-115 to I-75 (Clare, Isabella, Midland, and Bay counties)
US-31 — South Oceana County line to US-10 (Oceana and Mason counties)
Highways (65 MPH)
US-2 — Wakefield to Iron River (Gogebic and Iron counties)
US-2 — St. Ignace to Rapid River (Mackinac, Schoolcraft, and Delta counties)
US-23 — East of Cheboygan to east of M-65 (Cheboygan and Presque Isle counties)
US-45 — North of US-2 to M-26 (Gogebic and Ontonagon counties)
M-28 — East of Harvey to Christmas (Marquette and Alger counties)
M-28 — Munising to I-75 (Alger, Schoolcraft, Luce, and Chippewa counties)
M-28 — Wakefield to US-41 (Gogebic, Ontonagon, Houghton, and Baraga counties)
M-32 — Atlanta to Alpena (Montmorency and Alpena counties)
M-33 — Atlanta to Onaway (Montmorency and Presque Isle counties)
M-37 — Mesick to Wolf Lake (Wexford and Lake counties)
M-55 — US-31 to Cadillac West (Manistee and Wexford counties)
M-64 — M-28 to Old M-107 (Ontonagon County)
M-65 — US-23 to M-32 west junction (Arenac, Iosco, Alcona, and Alpena counties)
M-65 — M-32 east junction to US-23 (Alpena and Presque Isle counties)
M-68 — I-75 to US-23 (Cheboygan and Presque Isle counties)
M-72 — Grayling to Mio (Crawford and Oscoda counties)
M-72 — Fairview to M-65 north junction (Oscoda and Alcona counties)
M-72 — M-65 south junction to Harrisville (Alcona County)
M-77 — US-2 to M-28 (Schoolcraft County)
M-115 — Benzonia to Mesick (Benzie and Wexford counties)
M-123 — I-75 to Paradise (Mackinac and Chippewa counties)
M-231 — M-45 to M-104 (Ottawa County)
MDOT Press Release:
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/1968d0a
Map:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_SpeedLimitIncreases2017Map_558274_7.pdf
I see this list as a work in progress. To wit:
- Not a single mile of US-41 in the state (aside from the 4-lane segment north of Gladstone) will be posted for 65. I can understand slower limits around Houghton/Hancock and Marquette, but there's nothing about those stretches of road that couldn't handle 65 mph.
- US-141 completely excluded? (Aside from the 5-mile multiplex with M-28) Are you kidding me?
- M-77 included, but M-117 isn't?
- M-95, M-69, and M-35 are not included at all.
- Neither is M-26 or M-38
You get the picture...
My guess is that, with the 2-lanes, you'll see more stretches for 60 or 65 pop up over time. I would also not be shocked to see US-31 between Holland and Grand Haven, and US-131 between Portage and Three Rivers eventually rise to 65 (though those may come after work to remove/relocate median crossovers and other entry points is done, much like US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns).
I'd also expect that 75 will eventually spread to more sections of freeway; I-196 south of Holland and I-69 south of Lansing would be suitable for 75, being (relatively) lightly trafficked and more modern design. US-131 south of Grand Rapids and US-127 south of Lansing might merit an increase if cable-median or a median barrier were installed.
Not mentioned in the media, but conspicuous by its appearance in the act:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/publicact/pdf/2016-PA-0445.pdf (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/publicact/pdf/2016-PA-0445.pdf)
(4) Where the posted speed limit is greater than 65 miles per hour, a person operating a school bus, a truck with a
gross weight of 10,000 pounds or more, a truck-tractor, or a truck-tractor with a semi-trailer or trailer or a combination
of these vehicles shall not exceed a speed of 65 miles per hour on a limited access freeway or a state trunk line highway.
It would appear that a raise in the truck speed limit is on its way to pretty much the entire Michigan freeway network. Or, at least, it's now possible.
M-231 should have been 65 from the day it opened. Eastmanville will LOVE this as the 65 limit might draw Allendale-bound traffic from Muskegon and points NW off of 68th Ave.
Also, here are some non-freeways that I am a little surprised aren't getting bumped up to 65:
M-20 (US-31 to US-131; US-127 to Midland)
M-45 (west of Allendale)
M-52 (Stockbridge to I-96) - was just on this stretch of road yesterday and it was so hard not to go 65+ (heck, I-94 to M-52 to I-96 may be a quicker Ann Arbor to Lansing route than US-23 to I-96)
M-55 (Lake City to Houghton Lake)
M-115 (Mesick to Cadillac; US-131 to US-10)
US-10 (Custer to M-37; Idlewild to US-131)
US-31 (Holland to Grand Haven [everyone runs 70 through there it seems like])
US-131 (south of Portage)
Also, most UP state highways should default to 65 (exceptions being those with lots of curves)
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 26, 2017, 06:38:15 PM
I see this list as a work in progress. To wit:
- Not a single mile of US-41 in the state (aside from the 4-lane segment north of Gladstone) will be posted for 65. I can understand slower limits around Houghton/Hancock and Marquette, but there's nothing about those stretches of road that couldn't handle 65 mph.
- US-141 completely excluded? (Aside from the 5-mile multiplex with M-28) Are you kidding me?
- M-77 included, but M-117 isn't?
- M-95, M-69, and M-35 are not included at all.
- Neither is M-26 or M-38
You get the picture...
My guess is that, with the 2-lanes, you'll see more stretches for 60 or 65 pop up over time. I would also not be shocked to see US-31 between Holland and Grand Haven, and US-131 between Portage and Three Rivers eventually rise to 65 (though those may come after work to remove/relocate median crossovers and other entry points is done, much like US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns).
I'd also expect that 75 will eventually spread to more sections of freeway; I-196 south of Holland and I-69 south of Lansing would be suitable for 75, being (relatively) lightly trafficked and more modern design. US-131 south of Grand Rapids and US-127 south of Lansing might merit an increase if cable-median or a median barrier were installed.
split bus / truck speed limits need to go.
Look left for the Mile 0 M-185 sign. Last visit in 2014 all 7 (I believe) miles had a similar sign posted.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 12, 2017, 10:47:17 AM
Question for everyone who's been to Mackinaw Island-- have you seen any M-185 signs posted? If so, where on the island did you find them?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 12, 2017, 04:27:30 PM
I always found Mackinaw Island's M-185 designation to be odd, considering that motor vehicle traffic is banned from using the roadway.
There are emergency vehicles permitted on the Mackinac Island and much of the land the road passes through is within a State Park, so it's not that odd.
Quote from: halork on April 04, 2017, 07:45:29 AM
From MDOT's Twitter:
SIGNS: US-2, M-28 in the UP will get new mile marker posts. Numbers run W to E, starting in Gogebic County. Installation planned this summer
M-28 is getting mile markers here in Marquette County, and yes, they follow the M-28 numbering sequence, not US 41. I saw MM 131 and MM 132 on the way to work last night on M-28 eastbound, and MM 126 on M-28 westbound this morning on the way home.
I'm on a trip to Michigan, where I had opportunity to snag pictures of the updated speed limit signs on US-127 just north of Lansing. First one is posted in the middle of the I-69 interchange. Second is immediately after the entrance ramp to NBD US-127. Note also the new truck speed limit of 65.
In my brief observation, fast traffic was moving at about the same place as before, about 80ish, while the ones sticking to the speed limit picked up the pace to the new 75 mph limit. So, less variation in speeds, which is a positive.
Other interesting oddities I've found:
- US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca is posted for 65 for all vehicles, including trucks. That's a 10 mph bump for trucks from before.
It wasn't long ago this stretch was posted for 55 for all traffic. The new 65 mph limit is posted using the small speed limit signs normally found on 2-lane highways.
- US-127 south of I-69 is posted with a 70 mph car limit, and a 65 mph truck speed limit at least as far south as Leslie, and likely to Jackson.
- So far, no other roads in the area have the new speed limits, car or truck. Not that trucks would be all that enamored with a faster limit on I-69 east of I-96 - the right lane has been pounded to death by truck traffic, while the left lane is relatively smooth by comparison.
I saw at least 4 cars on the shoulder of I-69 today with blowouts. Wisconsin residents don't know what crappy roads look like.
I didn't see any changes on I-94 either. If there's a road in desperate need of a higher truck speed limit, that one is it. It would get trucks to take less than 5 miles to pass each other.
- A side note: Saginaw St (Bus I-69) through East Lansing looks like it's been used for Air Force bombing practice. It's not quite ready for 4x4 only signs, but it's close.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170528/efb36476d4e6407010b4411932514463.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170528/6b785a2a746befb53ce92f8c6e10599e.jpg)
The trucks on 94 make it driving it so frustrating. I was in Lansing last week and always coming home on 94 it can take a while for traffic to open up. The section between 69 and Kalamazoo seems to be the worst usually. Especially after driving 69 down from Lansing which has a third of the traffic of 94.
It's often worth the additional drive time for me to take M-60 to US-12 to US-31 to the Indiana toll road, just to not have to deal with I-94 truck traffic.
SM-G950U
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 28, 2017, 10:26:08 AM
It's often worth the additional drive time for me to take M-60 to US-12 to US-31 to the Indiana toll road, just to not have to deal with I-94 truck traffic.
SM-G950U
I tried that and found it slow on those two lanes. Also the Indiana tollway is completely torn up from South Bend all the way to 94. Must be 6 or 7 long slow construction zones in that stretch.
I-69 from I-94 to the Indiana State Line is quite empty and always a breeze to drive. It could easily be 75, that's what I set my cruise control anyway when on that stretch.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on June 10, 2017, 11:13:26 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 28, 2017, 10:26:08 AM
It's often worth the additional drive time for me to take M-60 to US-12 to US-31 to the Indiana toll road, just to not have to deal with I-94 truck traffic.
SM-G950U
I tried that and found it slow on those two lanes. Also the Indiana tollway is completely torn up from South Bend all the way to 94. Must be 6 or 7 long slow construction zones in that stretch.
There's no escaping the construction in NW Indiana this year. They'll get you one way or the other.
I-69 could certainly support a 75 mph limit, aside possibly from pavement quality. The trucks beat the hell out of the right lane.
65 mph speed limits come to U.P. 2-lanes:
http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/content/news/New-speed-limit-in-effect-431849653.html (http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/content/news/New-speed-limit-in-effect-431849653.html)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fz2gRKCL.jpg&hash=b2eb0a7b09d23519e61b9510ede124634e8de5b3)
My parents drove M-65 from US 23 to M-72 today and its 65 MPH speed limit was posted, but oddly enough M-72 was not posted yet for its 65 MPH speed limit going towards Harrisville. Any ideas on the inconsistent roll out?
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 12, 2017, 10:47:17 AM
Question for everyone who's been to Mackinaw Island-- have you seen any M-185 signs posted? If so, where on the island did you find them?
They have signs on Mackinac Island but they aren't the same as the usual state highway signs in Michigan. They are in the same shape (a diamond) but are wooden. I believe there is only one at mile marker 0 I haven't seen any other ones.
Quote from: cwm1276 on May 28, 2017, 09:53:54 AM
The trucks on 94 make it driving it so frustrating. I was in Lansing last week and always coming home on 94 it can take a while for traffic to open up. The section between 69 and Kalamazoo seems to be the worst usually. Especially after driving 69 down from Lansing which has a third of the traffic of 94.
Driving that stretch of 94 it has always seemed to me that it's the worst between I-69 and I-196 (which is where you get a third lane finally). Especially bad in Kalamazoo itself though. I can't at all figure out why an Interstate highway traveled as highly as I-94 is between Detroit and Chicago that it's only two lanes from Benton Harbor to Ann Arbor.
Quote from: aboges26 on August 27, 2017, 09:36:21 PM
My parents drove M-65 from US 23 to M-72 today and its 65 MPH speed limit was posted, but oddly enough M-72 was not posted yet for its 65 MPH speed limit going towards Harrisville. Any ideas on the inconsistent roll out?
They have to restripe and resign the passing zones to account for the higher speeds, which takes some time to perform. It's not like on the freeways, where they can largely get away with just replacing the speed limit signs.
I drove up the Thumb area to Port Austin on Friday to take a day off and get some sign photos. A resurfacing project on M-142 east of M-19 just finished up and sign replacement was part of the project. We now have wide M-142 shields on that stretch! Wide shields are common on BGSs but the only other time I have seen wide M-route shields used in confirmation and trailblazer assemblies is the original signing of M-553 in the Upper Peninsula.
(https://i.imgur.com/R5nnN8A.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ONnSCUU.jpg)
Detroit News reports that MDOT will finish the I-75 rebuild in Oakland County 10 years ahead of original schedule (2020 instead of 2030):
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2017/09/18/mdot-may-finish-75-oakland-co-2020/677158001/
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 17, 2017, 11:42:50 AM
I drove up the Thumb area to Port Austin on Friday to take a day off and get some sign photos. A resurfacing project on M-142 east of M-19 just finished up and sign replacement was part of the project. We now have wide M-142 shields on that stretch! Wide shields are common on BGSs but the only other time I have seen wide M-route shields used in confirmation and trailblazer assemblies is the original signing of M-553 in the Upper Peninsula.
The wide shields are definitely being rolled out beyond M-553 now. At last year's Battle Creek meet, we saw M-294 using 3-digit shields.
Quote from: getemngo on October 03, 2017, 11:00:54 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 17, 2017, 11:42:50 AM
I drove up the Thumb area to Port Austin on Friday to take a day off and get some sign photos. A resurfacing project on M-142 east of M-19 just finished up and sign replacement was part of the project. We now have wide M-142 shields on that stretch! Wide shields are common on BGSs but the only other time I have seen wide M-route shields used in confirmation and trailblazer assemblies is the original signing of M-553 in the Upper Peninsula.
The wide shields are definitely being rolled out beyond M-553 now. At last year's Battle Creek meet, we saw M-294 using 3-digit shields.
I have to wonder how consistently this is being done. Mind you, I would always preach that if you're going to do an "upgrade/update" such as this (replacing standard three-digit state route markers with the wide flavor), you should do it as the markers need replacing. I've always been frustrated when signs less than 1—2 years old get replaced for reasons like this.
When signs for M-222 at the US-131 interchange near Martin were replaced in the past year, the wide variant was used, but only on the off-ramps from the freeway. On M-222 itself, all M-222 reassurance markers are still the standard squares with FHWA Series B numerals. I've been keeping my eyes pealed for wide versions of the state route marker to start appearing elsewhere, but hadn't seen many other examples yet. I don't get over to the Thumb very often, so I appreciate hearing about the M-142 markers.
I've wondered if MDOT is planning on using the wide variant for three-digit routes which don't have two 1s in their designations? (e.g. We might see the wide variant used only when they can't fit the route number in using FHWA Series C, but that's just a guess on my part.)
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 28, 2017, 01:11:29 AM
I saw at least 4 cars on the shoulder of I-69 today with blowouts. Wisconsin residents don't know what crappy roads look like.
Sure they do, if they've been to Illinois (aka FIBistan).
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 12, 2017, 05:10:37 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 12, 2017, 10:47:17 AM
Question for everyone who's been to Mackinaw Island-- have you seen any M-185 signs posted? If so, where on the island did you find them?
They have signs on Mackinac Island but they aren't the same as the usual state highway signs in Michigan. They are in the same shape (a diamond) but are wooden. I believe there is only one at mile marker 0 I haven't seen any other ones.
They used to have wood versions of M-185 signs at each mile post around the loop, but most were removed a few years ago. The last time I was there, maybe two years ago, the only wood M-185 sign that remained was at Mile 0.
Has anybody else noticed that M-44's western terminus has been truncated once again to I-96, the same way it was from 1977-2003? This must have happened when East Beltline's signs were replaced last year.
Quote from: bessertc on October 09, 2017, 04:43:34 PM
Quote from: getemngo on October 03, 2017, 11:00:54 PM
The wide shields are definitely being rolled out beyond M-553 now. At last year's Battle Creek meet, we saw M-294 using 3-digit shields.
I have to wonder how consistently this is being done. Mind you, I would always preach that if you're going to do an "upgrade/update" such as this (replacing standard three-digit state route markers with the wide flavor), you should do it as the markers need replacing. I've always been frustrated when signs less than 1—2 years old get replaced for reasons like this.
When signs for M-222 at the US-131 interchange near Martin were replaced in the past year, the wide variant was used, but only on the off-ramps from the freeway. On M-222 itself, all M-222 reassurance markers are still the standard squares with FHWA Series B numerals. I've been keeping my eyes pealed for wide versions of the state route marker to start appearing elsewhere, but hadn't seen many other examples yet. I don't get over to the Thumb very often, so I appreciate hearing about the M-142 markers.
I noticed last weekend that M-179 is the same as M-222... only the signs on the US 131 off-ramps have been replaced with the wider variant.
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 26, 2017, 06:38:15 PM
I-196 south of Holland and I-69 south of Lansing would be suitable for 75, being (relatively) lightly trafficked and more modern design.
Agreed, I-196 is already 70 mph from 94 to Grand Rapids.
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 30, 2017, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 26, 2017, 06:38:15 PM
I-196 south of Holland and I-69 south of Lansing would be suitable for 75, being (relatively) lightly trafficked and more modern design.
Agreed, I-196 is already 70 mph from 94 to Grand Rapids.
69 from 94 to the Indiana Stateline is quite empty, traffic already goes 75 there, don't see why that stretch doesn't get changed. 69 is always a pleasure to drive unlike the overcrowded 94.
MDOT FINALLY raised the truck speed limit on I-94 to 65. That won't cure all the problems with jamming 10,000+ commercial trucks per day onto a highway with 40,000+ passenger cars onto two travel lanes in each direction, but at least the trucks camping in the left lane seemed more likely to pass slower traffic at a snail's pace (instead of a glacial pace).
If the 75 mph limits go much like the hike from 65 to 70 went in the late '90's, I would expect most rural freeways to get the bump to 75 in the next couple years. I would expect urban sections to stay where they are at currently.
Tidbits from the 2018-2022 Long Range Plan: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_5_Year_Plan_2018-2022_602180_7.pdf (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_5_Year_Plan_2018-2022_602180_7.pdf)
- 6-laning I-94 from Lovers Ln to Sprinkle Rd in Kalamazoo
- Work to rehab/reconstruct I-94 in Jackson to modern standards (with a weave/merge lane between Cooper St. and Elm St, but no other widening)
- Work to tie US-31 into I-94 at the current I-94 BL interchange location
- I-94 widening/modernization work in Detroit from I-96 east to Connor Ave (St)
- Continued I-75 widening north of Detroit
And, honestly, not much else beyond usual repair or reconstruction work.
There is no reason that I-94 shouldn't be six lanes from Ann Arbor to Benton Harbor. I've found that taking I-69 to the Indiana Toll Road then to the Skyway is a much easier ride than taking I-94 to Chicago.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 02, 2017, 12:13:08 AM
There is no reason that I-94 shouldn't be six lanes from Ann Arbor to Benton Harbor. I've found that taking I-69 to the Indiana Toll Road then to the Skyway is a much easier ride than taking I-94 to Chicago.
Agreed. Widen US-131 to I-69 and M-60 to the current 6-lane east of Chelsea first, then widen I-196/US-31 to US-131, then I-69 to M-60.
Or, freeway bypass US-12 between New Buffalo and Ann Arbor, with freeway connectors along M-66 and US-127. That would be a perfect candidate for a tollway.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 02, 2017, 10:53:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 02, 2017, 12:13:08 AM
There is no reason that I-94 shouldn't be six lanes from Ann Arbor to Benton Harbor. I've found that taking I-69 to the Indiana Toll Road then to the Skyway is a much easier ride than taking I-94 to Chicago.
Agreed. Widen US-131 to I-69 and M-60 to the current 6-lane east of Chelsea first, then widen I-196/US-31 to US-131, then I-69 to M-60.
Or, freeway bypass US-12 between New Buffalo and Ann Arbor, with freeway connectors along M-66 and US-127. That would be a perfect candidate for a tollway.
That would be a pretty good idea right there. Just like US 23 between Flint and the Ohio border. Another one it's only a four mile stretch is I-75 between the US-23 split and Flint to I-475 south of Flint.
SAMSUNG-SM-J727A
Quote from: getemngo on October 20, 2017, 11:13:57 PM
Has anybody else noticed that M-44's western terminus has been truncated once again to I-96, the same way it was from 1977-2003? This must have happened when East Beltline's signs were replaced last year.
Yep. I had updated the M-44 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-044.html) on my site to show this change. But, since I have no idea what MDOT is considering to be the true western terminus of M-44, I've decided to show both the signed and M-11 termini as well as the two corresponding lengths of the route until I get some more definitive official information. I also modified my M-44 route map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/M-044.html) in a similar fashion.
I know quite a few people at the Grand Rapids MPO, MDOT, and the FHWA Michigan Division, but I still can't tell you where M-44 *officially* ends... :confused:
Later, Chris
Quote from: bessertc on November 13, 2017, 04:08:22 PM
Quote from: getemngo on October 20, 2017, 11:13:57 PM
Has anybody else noticed that M-44's western terminus has been truncated once again to I-96, the same way it was from 1977-2003? This must have happened when East Beltline's signs were replaced last year.
Yep. I had updated the M-44 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-044.html) on my site to show this change. But, since I have no idea what MDOT is considering to be the true western terminus of M-44, I've decided to show both the signed and M-11 termini as well as the two corresponding lengths of the route until I get some more definitive official information. I also modified my M-44 route map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/M-044.html) in a similar fashion.
I know quite a few people at the Grand Rapids MPO, MDOT, and the FHWA Michigan Division, but I still can't tell you where M-44 *officially* ends... :confused:
Later, Chris
I think it ends at E. Beltline and 28th Street in Kentwood although it should just end at I-96 since M-37 joins it as a multiplex there and M-37 keeps going while M-44 ends at some point during the multiplex. It interchanges two state highways during the multiplex too (M-21 and M-11) and that connector route has always confused me.
One thing that I have always wondered is why does M-81 end at M-53 but a perfectly fine road continues to M-19? I just never understood why M-81 doesn't end at M-19. I mean I know it's only 8 miles from M-53 to M-19 but it would make sense.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 14, 2017, 07:51:47 PM
Quote from: bessertc on November 13, 2017, 04:08:22 PM
Quote from: getemngo on October 20, 2017, 11:13:57 PM
Has anybody else noticed that M-44's western terminus has been truncated once again to I-96, the same way it was from 1977-2003? This must have happened when East Beltline's signs were replaced last year.
Yep. I had updated the M-44 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-044.html) on my site to show this change. But, since I have no idea what MDOT is considering to be the true western terminus of M-44, I've decided to show both the signed and M-11 termini as well as the two corresponding lengths of the route until I get some more definitive official information. I also modified my M-44 route map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/M-044.html) in a similar fashion.
I know quite a few people at the Grand Rapids MPO, MDOT, and the FHWA Michigan Division, but I still can't tell you where M-44 *officially* ends... :confused:
I think it ends at E. Beltline and 28th Street in Kentwood although it should just end at I-96 since M-37 joins it as a multiplex there and M-37 keeps going while M-44 ends at some point during the multiplex. It interchanges two state highways during the multiplex too (M-21 and M-11) and that connector route has always confused me.
Well, until last year, the signs clearly showed M-44 continuing southerly with M-37 to a terminus at M-11/28th St, but when the signage was replaced, M-44 is now signed as ending at I-96 Exit 38, as it was signed from 1977 to 2003. Sure, I could "de-extend" or "retract" M-44's terminus back to its pre-2003 location on my website, but the darn thing has been such a yo-yo over the past few decades that I'm not sure MDOT has any idea of where they want the route to end. I was once told by a quasi-insider that the commentary :poke: on my website as to the "re-extension" of M-44 from I-96 south to M-11/28th St caught the ire of a few MDOTers and it eventually resulted the 2016 "un-re-extension" of M-44. I don't know how true that is, but I've been made aware of several state highway changes that directly came about because of me or my website (including me suggesting M-121 for Chicago Dr between Grandville and Zeeland), so I wouldn't be shocked if that happened as well...
Today I drove from through MI from Port Huron along I-69 up I-75 to Mackinaw City. It was interesting to note that some signs have been updated to 75 mph, while others are still stuck at 70 mph.
75 mph on I-69 near Port Huron
(https://i.imgur.com/LIjM6bGl.jpg)
70 mph on I-69 close to Flint
(https://i.imgur.com/AGBJGx8l.jpg)
70 mph on I-75 around Saginaw
(https://i.imgur.com/ubS4BgZl.jpg)
75 mph on I-75 near Bay City
(https://i.imgur.com/IwAl2lGl.jpg)
Quote from: bessertc on November 16, 2017, 01:46:48 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 14, 2017, 07:51:47 PM
Quote from: bessertc on November 13, 2017, 04:08:22 PM
Quote from: getemngo on October 20, 2017, 11:13:57 PM
Has anybody else noticed that M-44's western terminus has been truncated once again to I-96, the same way it was from 1977-2003? This must have happened when East Beltline's signs were replaced last year.
Yep. I had updated the M-44 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-044.html) on my site to show this change. But, since I have no idea what MDOT is considering to be the true western terminus of M-44, I've decided to show both the signed and M-11 termini as well as the two corresponding lengths of the route until I get some more definitive official information. I also modified my M-44 route map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/M-044.html) in a similar fashion.
I know quite a few people at the Grand Rapids MPO, MDOT, and the FHWA Michigan Division, but I still can't tell you where M-44 *officially* ends... :confused:
I think it ends at E. Beltline and 28th Street in Kentwood although it should just end at I-96 since M-37 joins it as a multiplex there and M-37 keeps going while M-44 ends at some point during the multiplex. It interchanges two state highways during the multiplex too (M-21 and M-11) and that connector route has always confused me.
Well, until last year, the signs clearly showed M-44 continuing southerly with M-37 to a terminus at M-11/28th St, but when the signage was replaced, M-44 is now signed as ending at I-96 Exit 38, as it was signed from 1977 to 2003. Sure, I could "de-extend" or "retract" M-44's terminus back to its pre-2003 location on my website, but the darn thing has been such a yo-yo over the past few decades that I'm not sure MDOT has any idea of where they want the route to end. I was once told by a quasi-insider that the commentary :poke: on my website as to the "re-extension" of M-44 from I-96 south to M-11/28th St caught the ire of a few MDOTers and it eventually resulted the 2016 "un-re-extension" of M-44. I don't know how true that is, but I've been made aware of several state highway changes that directly came about because of me or my website (including me suggesting M-121 for Chicago Dr between Grandville and Zeeland), so I wouldn't be shocked if that happened as well...
Google Maps and Wikipedia both show M-44 ending at M-11/28th Street. It just doesn't make any sense to make a 4 mile multiplex with M-37 when M-44 just ends while multiplexed. Ending it at I-96 makes more sense and they could really use to remove the connector route.
Quote from: 7/8 on November 16, 2017, 08:43:03 PM
Today I drove from through MI from Port Huron along I-69 up I-75 to Mackinaw City. It was interesting to note that some signs have been updated to 75 mph, while others are still stuck at 70 mph.
// snip photos //
As I understood it, 75 mph was only going to apply to freeways north of US-10. That's true for I-75.
Then US-10 was signed for 75 mph - I guess it's north of itself :crazy:
They evidently decided that some portions of freeways south of US-10 can be at 75 mph, such as your I-69 example.
Anyone know where 75 mph starts on US-131 or US-127?
Quote from: GaryV on November 17, 2017, 07:03:34 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 16, 2017, 08:43:03 PM
Today I drove from through MI from Port Huron along I-69 up I-75 to Mackinaw City. It was interesting to note that some signs have been updated to 75 mph, while others are still stuck at 70 mph.
// snip photos //
As I understood it, 75 mph was only going to apply to freeways north of US-10. That's true for I-75.
Then US-10 was signed for 75 mph - I guess it's north of itself :crazy:
They evidently decided that some portions of freeways south of US-10 can be at 75 mph, such as your I-69 example.
Anyone know where 75 mph starts on US-131 or US-127?
US-131 is 75 mph from M-57 to north of Manton a total of 95 miles.
US-127 is 75 mph from I-69 to St. Johns and then again from Ithaca to I-75.
The only part of I-69 between Lansing and Port Huron that isn't 75 mph is the stretch through Flint between Swartz Creek and the Genesee/Lapeer county line.
I-75 got the most of the 75 mph speed limit at 175 miles between Bay City and Mackinaw City.
^ Don't forget the part of I-75 between St. Ignace and SSM.
I suspect what I heard of the "north of US-10" designation was from the metro-centric news reporting. I-75 was the only freeway of note to them that was getting 75 mph, so the definition for where 75 mph would be implemented on I-75 was how they reported it in general.
Quote from: GaryV on November 17, 2017, 01:01:19 PM
^ Don't forget the part of I-75 between St. Ignace and SSM.
I suspect what I heard of the "north of US-10" designation was from the metro-centric news reporting. I-75 was the only freeway of note to them that was getting 75 mph, so the definition for where 75 mph would be implemented on I-75 was how they reported it in general.
Yes that stretch too so it's 225 miles of I-75. Mine as well just say everything north of Bay City except the Mackinac Bridge.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 16, 2017, 10:30:42 PM
Quote from: bessertc on November 16, 2017, 01:46:48 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 14, 2017, 07:51:47 PM
Quote from: bessertc on November 13, 2017, 04:08:22 PM
Quote from: getemngo on October 20, 2017, 11:13:57 PM
Has anybody else noticed that M-44's western terminus has been truncated once again to I-96, the same way it was from 1977-2003? This must have happened when East Beltline's signs were replaced last year.
Yep. I had updated the M-44 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-044.html) on my site to show this change. But, since I have no idea what MDOT is considering to be the true western terminus of M-44, I've decided to show both the signed and M-11 termini as well as the two corresponding lengths of the route until I get some more definitive official information. I also modified my M-44 route map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/M-044.html) in a similar fashion.
I know quite a few people at the Grand Rapids MPO, MDOT, and the FHWA Michigan Division, but I still can't tell you where M-44 *officially* ends... :confused:
I think it ends at E. Beltline and 28th Street in Kentwood although it should just end at I-96 since M-37 joins it as a multiplex there and M-37 keeps going while M-44 ends at some point during the multiplex. It interchanges two state highways during the multiplex too (M-21 and M-11) and that connector route has always confused me.
Well, until last year, the signs clearly showed M-44 continuing southerly with M-37 to a terminus at M-11/28th St, but when the signage was replaced, M-44 is now signed as ending at I-96 Exit 38, as it was signed from 1977 to 2003. Sure, I could "de-extend" or "retract" M-44's terminus back to its pre-2003 location on my website, but the darn thing has been such a yo-yo over the past few decades that I'm not sure MDOT has any idea of where they want the route to end. I was once told by a quasi-insider that the commentary :poke: on my website as to the "re-extension" of M-44 from I-96 south to M-11/28th St caught the ire of a few MDOTers and it eventually resulted the 2016 "un-re-extension" of M-44. I don't know how true that is, but I've been made aware of several state highway changes that directly came about because of me or my website (including me suggesting M-121 for Chicago Dr between Grandville and Zeeland), so I wouldn't be shocked if that happened as well...
Google Maps and Wikipedia both show M-44 ending at M-11/28th Street. It just doesn't make any sense to make a 4 mile multiplex with M-37 when M-44 just ends while multiplexed. Ending it at I-96 makes more sense and they could really use to remove the connector route.
Yes, both Google Maps and Wikipedia–as well as many other sources–have not yet been updated and/or corrected with the new information.
As is laid out on my M-44 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-044.html) on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org) website, M-44's western terminus has been:
- 1920—1957 — At US-131 at cnr Northland Dr & Belding Rd south of Rockford.
- 1957—1961 — At US-131 at cnr Wolverine Blvd & Belding Rd south of Rockford
- 1961—1977 — At M-11 at cnr East Beltline Ave-Broadmoor Ave & 28th St in Kentwood
- 1977—2003 — At I-96 at Exit 38 (jct I-96 & M-37) east of Grand Rapids
- 2003—2016 — At M-11 at cnr East Beltline Ave-Broadmoor Ave & 28th St in Kentwood
- 2016—Present — At I-96 at Exit 38 (jct I-96 & M-37) east of Grand Rapids
Historically, there
is a reason for M-44 to continue southerly to M-11/28th St. Between 1962 and 1969, M-37 did not run along the East Beltline between 28th St and I-96–it turned westerly via M-11/28th St to US-131, then ran northerly through Grand Rapids to I-96 where it jogged west a short distance to Alpine Ave. So, M-44 was
the state trunkline designation for the entire East Beltline Ave, from Plainfield Ave-Northland Dr southerly to 28th St from 1962—69. What isn't clear is why MDOT left the M-44 designation on East Beltline down to 28th St after 1969... was there a specific reason or just inertia on the part of the department?
Quote from: bessertc on November 17, 2017, 08:32:00 PM
Yes, both Google Maps and Wikipedia–as well as many other sources–have not yet been updated and/or corrected with the new information.
As is laid out on my M-44 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-044.html) on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org) website, M-44's western terminus has been:
- 1920—1957 — At US-131 at cnr Northland Dr & Belding Rd south of Rockford.
- 1957—1961 — At US-131 at cnr Wolverine Blvd & Belding Rd south of Rockford
- 1961—1977 — At M-11 at cnr East Beltline Ave-Broadmoor Ave & 28th St in Kentwood
- 1977—2003 — At I-96 at Exit 38 (jct I-96 & M-37) east of Grand Rapids
- 2003—2016 — At M-11 at cnr East Beltline Ave-Broadmoor Ave & 28th St in Kentwood
- 2016—Present — At I-96 at Exit 38 (jct I-96 & M-37) east of Grand Rapids
Historically, there is a reason for M-44 to continue southerly to M-11/28th St. Between 1962 and 1969, M-37 did not run along the East Beltline between 28th St and I-96–it turned westerly via M-11/28th St to US-131, then ran northerly through Grand Rapids to I-96 where it jogged west a short distance to Alpine Ave. So, M-44 was the state trunkline designation for the entire East Beltline Ave, from Plainfield Ave-Northland Dr southerly to 28th St from 1962—69. What isn't clear is why MDOT left the M-44 designation on East Beltline down to 28th St after 1969... was there a specific reason or just inertia on the part of the department?
MDOT's Physical Reference Finder mapping application (http://www.mcgi.state.mi.us/prfinder/) currently shows East Beltline south of I-96 as M-44. The Grand Rapids inset on the recent State Transportation Maps (2016, 2017) do not label that segment of highway with any markers, but the 2015 edition does label it with both M-37 and M-44 markers.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on November 17, 2017, 11:36:20 PM
MDOT's Physical Reference Finder mapping application (http://www.mcgi.state.mi.us/prfinder/) currently shows East Beltline south of I-96 as M-44. The Grand Rapids inset on the recent State Transportation Maps (2016, 2017) do not label that segment of highway with any markers, but the 2015 edition does label it with both M-37 and M-44 markers.
Yes, but MDOT has been known for their less-than-perfect mapping in recent times–the PR Finder maps and, now, mapping application, are no different. For example, the current iteration of the online PR Finder has eliminated the segment of former BL I-94/M-37 (Skyline Dr) in Battle Creek between Hill Brady Rd and M-96/Dickman Rd, but does not show that segment's replacement along Columbia Ave between Skyline and Helmer. Also, the now fully-signed M-5 along Grand River Ave in Detroit into downtown is still shown as an unsigned trunkline, among other errors. I work with the data used in the apps and I know a lot of its shortcomings... and I know that most of the people involved in these apps (and other state-level mapping) don't generally have the time or inclination to make sure they're as accurate as possible. On top of that, for MDOT's purposes, East Beltline ave between I-96 and 28th St in Grand Rapids is a trunkline highway and aside from signage replacement contracts every decade or two, the route number on the highway is the last thing the department worries about–for better or worse... which may help explain my approach to the western terminus on the M-44 route listing on the Michigan Highways website. ;-)
In the end, all M-44 signs along East Beltline Ave south of I-96 at Exit 38 were removed in 2016 and that's gotta say something!
I wonder if M-44 was planned at one time to continue down Broadmoor to M-6 (with M-37 being rerouted to follow I-96 and M-6 around the Beltline/Broadmoor). M-6 had just opened in 2003 and there is a particularly nasty lane crossover on EB 96 for traffic to stay on SB 37
Quote from: ftballfan on November 25, 2017, 11:37:56 PM
I wonder if M-44 was planned at one time to continue down Broadmoor to M-6 (with M-37 being rerouted to follow I-96 and M-6 around the Beltline/Broadmoor). M-6 had just opened in 2003 and there is a particularly nasty lane crossover on EB 96 for traffic to stay on SB 37
Unlikely. That would add considerable length (probably about double) to that segment of M-37. That section of I-96/I-196/M-37/M-44 is getting a fix. It should be done about 3999.
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 27, 2017, 08:13:18 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on November 25, 2017, 11:37:56 PM
I wonder if M-44 was planned at one time to continue down Broadmoor to M-6 (with M-37 being rerouted to follow I-96 and M-6 around the Beltline/Broadmoor). M-6 had just opened in 2003 and there is a particularly nasty lane crossover on EB 96 for traffic to stay on SB 37
Unlikely. That would add considerable length (probably about double) to that segment of M-37. That section of I-96/I-196/M-37/M-44 is getting a fix. It should be done about 3999.
According to Google Maps, I-96 -> M-6 -> M-37 is quicker than I-96 -> M-37 between I-96 and Caledonia.
Quote from: ftballfan on December 02, 2017, 10:49:11 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 27, 2017, 08:13:18 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on November 25, 2017, 11:37:56 PM
I wonder if M-44 was planned at one time to continue down Broadmoor to M-6 (with M-37 being rerouted to follow I-96 and M-6 around the Beltline/Broadmoor). M-6 had just opened in 2003 and there is a particularly nasty lane crossover on EB 96 for traffic to stay on SB 37
Unlikely. That would add considerable length (probably about double) to that segment of M-37. That section of I-96/I-196/M-37/M-44 is getting a fix. It should be done about 3999.
According to Google Maps, I-96 -> M-6 -> M-37 is quicker than I-96 -> M-37 between I-96 and Caledonia.
May very well be, but it's still about twice as long, and many state routes could be eliminated, in part or in whole, if time was the only consideration. For Instance, anyone travelling from Grandville to Zeeland is going to opt for I-196 over M-121 if time is the only factor. So why does M-121 exist?
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 03, 2017, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on December 02, 2017, 10:49:11 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 27, 2017, 08:13:18 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on November 25, 2017, 11:37:56 PM
I wonder if M-44 was planned at one time to continue down Broadmoor to M-6 (with M-37 being rerouted to follow I-96 and M-6 around the Beltline/Broadmoor). M-6 had just opened in 2003 and there is a particularly nasty lane crossover on EB 96 for traffic to stay on SB 37
Unlikely. That would add considerable length (probably about double) to that segment of M-37. That section of I-96/I-196/M-37/M-44 is getting a fix. It should be done about 3999.
According to Google Maps, I-96 -> M-6 -> M-37 is quicker than I-96 -> M-37 between I-96 and Caledonia.
May very well be, but it's still about twice as long, and many state routes could be eliminated, in part or in whole, if time was the only consideration. For Instance, anyone travelling from Grandville to Zeeland is going to opt for I-196 over M-121 if time is the only factor. So why does M-121 exist?
M-121 was Old M-21 up until about 10 years ago and was still state maintained so I'm assuming that's why it was given a state highway number again. I don't understand why they didn't just extend M-21 through Grand Rapids and leave it the way it was if they were going to continue to use a state highway number on it.
And now for some local road ranting:
Just south of Lansing, MI, a local road, Columbia Road, had its bridge over the Grand River replaced this fall. Photos here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1729056883811157&id=1083529628363889
and
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1726116400771872&id=1083529628363889
Google map: https://goo.gl/maps/WZb4P6fZzeJ2
The "clear truss" design of the new bridge has one fatal flaw: it blocks a clear view of traffic turning to and from the south leg of Waverly Rd. Both Columbia Rd and Waverly Rd have 55 mph speed limits. WBD traffic on Columbia has no problems, but EBD traffic will struggle to see NBD Waverly Rd traffic turning onto Columbia Rd.
The Ingham County Road Commission's solution: a "Limited Sight Distance" sign. Not an EBD turn lane. Not a bridge design that provides drivers a clear view of traffic turning onto Columbia from Waverly. A stupid f***ing sign!
This kind of idiocy makes me want to dope-slap the engineers and bean-counters involved in building this bridge. It would have made more sense if it was coupled with a relocation of Waverly Rd east, but by the time they spent the property acquisition and road construction costs, they could've had a bridge that didn't create a worse traffic hazard than the old one!
MDOT's plans to reconstruct a 10-mile stretch of I-696 between I-94 and I-75 this year have hit a snag: The city of Roseville has denied a request to allow contractors to work around the clock.
MDOT needs to get the entire project done in one year while the funding is available and also because I-75 (which will be part of the posted westbound I-696 detour) will be under major construction in the area of I-696 in 2019. MDOT is confident the city will allow 'round-the-clock work for at least some periods once the contract is let and a detailed project schedule is made. Note that I-696 in Roseville is mostly in residential areas, which is the reason for Roseville's action.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/macomb-county/2018/01/01/roseville-construction-noise/109069170/
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 03, 2018, 11:24:41 PM
MDOT's plans to reconstruct a 10-mile stretch of I-696 between I-94 and I-75 this year have hit a snag: The city of Roseville has denied a request to allow contractors to work around the clock.
MDOT needs to get the entire project done in one year while the funding is available and also because I-75 (which will be part of the posted westbound I-696 detour) will be under major construction in the area of I-696 in 2019. MDOT is confident the city will allow 'round-the-clock work for at least some periods once the contract is let and a detailed project schedule is made. Note that I-696 in Roseville is mostly in residential areas, which is the reason for Roseville's action.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/macomb-county/2018/01/01/roseville-construction-noise/109069170/
I am not surprised, given the freeway's location and the project's disruptive potential. Also, the MDOT deadline puts added pressure on the project, and unless there's a compromise from the city, it may not be met.
I remember when the Red Line in Chicago was under reconstruction in 2013 and had to use the old Englewood branch of the Green Line to terminate on the Southside. People would complain about the trains running down the tracks 24 hours a day. I got thinking when the Green Line use to run 24 hours where were the complaints then?
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 04, 2018, 01:56:02 PM
I remember when the Red Line in Chicago was under reconstruction in 2013 and had to use the old Englewood branch of the Green Line to terminate on the Southside. People would complain about the trains running down the tracks 24 hours a day. I got thinking when the Green Line use to run 24 hours where were the complaints then?
The trains probably ran over the Green Line much more frequently when the Red Line was under construction than they did back when there was 24-hour service on that line.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 04, 2018, 03:08:17 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 04, 2018, 01:56:02 PM
I remember when the Red Line in Chicago was under reconstruction in 2013 and had to use the old Englewood branch of the Green Line to terminate on the Southside. People would complain about the trains running down the tracks 24 hours a day. I got thinking when the Green Line use to run 24 hours where were the complaints then?
The trains probably ran over the Green Line much more frequently when the Red Line was under construction than they did back when there was 24-hour service on that line.
Even without 24 hour service on the Green Line that line still runs about 21 hours a day but your right the frequency of trains was probably different. But the point of the matter is your still going to get a Green Line train roaring up the tracks at about 4am when the line starts running for the day.
As for the I-696 construction, I don't see what the difference between vehicles roaring through there 24 hours a day and a construction crew working on the highway 24 hours a day. Especially considering that MDOT needs to rush to get this done because of the I-75 construction as well. I'd love to see the I-75 project get completed by 2020 instead of 2030 like it was originally suppose to.
Working to improve road safety since the 2016 deaths of two women cyclists, the Michigan Department of Transportation is doubling the width of bicycle lanes on Wamplers Lake Road [M-124].
Funding has been approved for a $1.3 million project to extend the paved shoulders from 4 feet to 8 feet from U.S. 12 in Cambridge Township to M-50 in Brooklyn, a 7.4-mile stretch on M-124, state Sen. Mike Shrikey announced Friday, Feb. 2.
MDOT also will upgrade street signs and pavement markers, making them brighter, more reflective and easier to see in low-light conditions; and add rumble strips along the white line separating the driving lane from the shoulder.
This is in addition to the scheduled repaving of the M-124 stretch
MDOT widening Brooklyn-area bike shoulders since deaths of two cyclists
http://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/index.ssf/2018/02/mdot_will_widen_brooklyn-area.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/index.ssf/2018/02/mdot_will_widen_brooklyn-area.html)
Noticed 94 is in really bad condition around mm 30 in the St. Joseph Benton Harbor area. Every single lane I tried I kept hitting these long trench like holes between every segment with a BANG..........BANG..........BANG on my tires and suspension every few seconds. Cringed at all the stress on the car which is only two years old. 69 was a washboard too from 94 to Charlotte. This winter has been hard on the roads in the midwest.
The recent heavy rainfall didn't help matters.
More:
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2018/02/21/flooding-and-potholes-closing-dozens-lansing-area-roads/358226002/
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/02/21/potholes-metro-detroit-75/360891002/
More wide 3d Michigan shields at the newly re-signed M-50/BL US-127/M-106/BL I-94 junction in Jackson. I guess we've seen enough occurrences of this to say it's the new standard.
(https://i.imgur.com/yvYydNL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3AtKtQF.jpg)
MMM NEW WIDE SHIELDS
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 11, 2018, 03:11:15 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/3AtKtQF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YiDyVou.jpg)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 11, 2018, 03:11:15 AM
More wide 3d Michigan shields at the newly re-signed M-50/BL US-127/M-106/BL I-94 junction in Jackson. I guess we've seen enough occurrences of this to say it's the new standard.
(https://i.imgur.com/yvYydNL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3AtKtQF.jpg)
I noticed that in both M-106 shields, the "106" portion of the sign is on a separate add-on sticker. Was this a route change, or recycled signs?
Quote from: thenetwork on March 11, 2018, 10:38:54 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 11, 2018, 03:11:15 AM
More wide 3d Michigan shields at the newly re-signed M-50/BL US-127/M-106/BL I-94 junction in Jackson. I guess we've seen enough occurrences of this to say it's the new standard.
(https://i.imgur.com/yvYydNL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3AtKtQF.jpg)
I noticed that in both M-106 shields, the "106" portion of the sign is on a separate add-on sticker. Was this a route change, or recycled signs?
M-106 hasn't had any route changes in several years that I know of.
Quote from: thenetwork on March 11, 2018, 10:38:54 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 11, 2018, 03:11:15 AM
More wide 3d Michigan shields at the newly re-signed M-50/BL US-127/M-106/BL I-94 junction in Jackson. I guess we've seen enough occurrences of this to say it's the new standard.
(https://i.imgur.com/yvYydNL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3AtKtQF.jpg)
I noticed that in both M-106 shields, the "106" portion of the sign is on a separate add-on sticker. Was this a route change, or recycled signs?
Nope, it's not a route change and the signs are brand new. On the first photo (with the BL I-94 shield), look closely and you'll see that the faint line underneath the 106 that makes it look like a sticker actually extends across the entire sign. Looks like a manufacturing glitch or the sign was slightly damaged. I don't see anything on the sign in the other photo that makes it look like a sticker.
Looks like I need to spend some more time on here. Just accepted a job offer I could not refuse in Clinton township.
MDOT has I-94 in Detroit completely shutdown between I-75 and Conner.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2018, 02:27:28 AM
MDOT has I-94 in Detroit completely shutdown between I-75 and Conner.
Demolishing the Chene Street bridge and half the Gratiot Avenue (M-3) bridge.
At this rate, the I-94 reconstruction should be done in 2049.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 18, 2018, 11:38:14 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2018, 02:27:28 AM
MDOT has I-94 in Detroit completely shutdown between I-75 and Conner.
Demolishing the Chene Street bridge and half the Gratiot Avenue (M-3) bridge.
At this rate, the I-94 reconstruction should be done in 2049.
It wouldn't surprise me.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 11, 2018, 03:15:36 AM
MMM NEW WIDE SHIELDS
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 11, 2018, 03:11:15 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/3AtKtQF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YiDyVou.jpg)
I, for one, welcome our new 5:4 aspect ratio overlords.
This has probably been brought up before, but does anyone know why they didn't keep the Muskegon freeway I-196 and the Holland freeway I-96? I think it used to be like this, and it seems to make more sense.
I-196 really should be I-296, shouldn't it.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 24, 2018, 02:30:15 PM
I-196 really should be I-296, shouldn't it.
Well, the E-W portion of I-69 SHOULD'VE been I-98 also and I-69 should've gone north along old US 27 (now US 127) to terminate at I-75, but that's life in the bureaucracy! :D
I-75 has now had two bridges hit by semi trucks within the last few months. First at Salzburg Road in Bay County and now at Coldwater Road in Genesee County.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 24, 2018, 02:30:15 PM
I-196 really should be I-296, shouldn't it.
Well there is an I-296 that exists on paper but it's unsigned.
Quote from: mrpablue on April 23, 2018, 07:37:33 PM
This has probably been brought up before, but does anyone know why they didn't keep the Muskegon freeway I-196 and the Holland freeway I-96? I think it used to be like this, and it seems to make more sense.
In 1963, just before the numbering was changed, if a driver was following the freeway routing that connected Muskegon to Detroit, he would be on I-196/US 16 between Norton Shores and a point east of downtown Grand Rapids. At that point, the designation switched to I-96/US 16. The routing of what is now I-196 that would have carried I-96 through downtown and toward Holland hadn't been built yet; in fact, none of the rest of I-96's planned routing toward Benton Harbor had been built except for a segment of the US 31 freeway north of I-94 to Lake Michigan Beach. So the location of where the original I-196 just ended was seemingly quite random at that time, even if it would make sense within a few years as segments of freeway along the M-21 and US 31 corridors continued to open.
Michigan State Highway Department (1963).
Official Highway Map (http://seekingmichigan.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p129401coll3/id/5474/rec/2)
I believe it was to ease confusion. The Muskegon-Detroit route was M-16, then US-16 so keeping the same continuous number for the Muskegon-Detroit route makes sense.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 24, 2018, 02:30:15 PM
I-196 really should be I-296, shouldn't it.
M-6 should be I-296.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 24, 2018, 02:30:15 PM
I-196 really should be I-296, shouldn't it.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 26, 2018, 04:35:33 PMM-6 should be I-296.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 24, 2018, 04:50:05 PM
Well there is an I-296 that exists on paper but it's unsigned.
The stretch of US-131 from 96 to 196 is *also* designated as I-296. The signs were removed in the '80s to eliminate redundancy, but it's still designated as 296 on paper.
The expressways in the Grand Rapids area are fine the way they are. People that know the Grand Rapids area are already familiar with them.
Tell that to Texas and North Carolina!
Quote from: Brandon on April 27, 2018, 04:33:12 PM
Not everything needs a freaking I-number.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
My point is that we don't need them changing the highway numbers just to make it an Interstate. M-6 is just fine for the South Beltline.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 27, 2018, 07:24:39 PM
My point is that we don't need them changing the highway numbers just to make it an Interstate. M-6 is just fine for the South Beltline.
I agree. If M-6 was signed as an interstate when it was made, I would be for it. However, since the public knows the highway as M-6, it should stay that way.
Quote from: adwerkema on April 28, 2018, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 27, 2018, 07:24:39 PM
My point is that we don't need them changing the highway numbers just to make it an Interstate. M-6 is just fine for the South Beltline.
I agree. If M-6 was signed as an interstate when it was made, I would be for it. However, since the public knows the highway as M-6, it should stay that way.
The problem I'd have is someone gets to know a route by either a name or a number so you want to confuse people by changing names? That's the way I look at it.
I-196 should really be an even-numbered 3DI, shouldn't it.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 30, 2018, 09:00:01 AM
I-196 should really be an even-numbered 3DI, shouldn't it.
It probably should but it's really not a bypass or beltway of anything. I just question what is it a spur route to? Benton Harbor/St. Joseph, Chicago? If anything it should be something I-x94 since it seems like it's more of a spur route to Grand Rapids from I-94.
Another thing with I-196 is it's almost half the length of it's parent. I-96 is 192 miles long, I-196 is 80 miles long. I've heard of making I-196 into I-67 but I doubt that'll ever happen.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 30, 2018, 11:36:32 AM
It probably should but it's really not a bypass or beltway of anything.
But it connects two interstates.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 30, 2018, 12:42:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 30, 2018, 11:36:32 AM
It probably should but it's really not a bypass or beltway of anything.
But it connects two interstates.
It's not the only odd numbered 3-di that connects to two Interstate's. The rule on this is set by the state, another case of this happening in Michigan but having an even numbered 3-di is both I-275 and I-696 but I-275 was originally planned to connected back to I-75 near Davisburg and I-696 is part of the beltway around Detroit. Detroit could never have a full beltway due to Canada being in the way but both I-69 between Marshall and Port Huron and US-23 between Flint and Toledo function as a bypass of Detroit.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 30, 2018, 11:36:32 AM
I've heard of making I-196 into I-67 but I doubt that'll ever happen.
That really depends on:
1) Michigan fixing the US 31 freeway gap near St. Joseph
2) Indiana converting the rest of US 31 between Plymouth and Carmel to freeway
If both of those things happen, then it makes sense to renumber I-196 as I-67 and then continue I-67 along US 31 to Indy.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 30, 2018, 01:33:57 PM
It's not the only odd numbered 3-di that connects to two Interstate's.
Right; I-355 should be even-numbered as well.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 30, 2018, 02:17:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 30, 2018, 01:33:57 PM
It's not the only odd numbered 3-di that connects to two Interstate's.
Right; I-355 should be even-numbered as well.
It depends on how the state treats it as.
I thought the rule was that even numbered 3dis connected back to the same interstate - not just any interstate. That way you could be assured that you would eventually get back to the same mainline interstate. Regardless I realize that this rule is hardly universal.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 30, 2018, 02:45:32 PM
I thought the rule was that even numbered 3dis connected back to the same interstate - not just any interstate. That way you could be assured that you would eventually get back to the same mainline interstate. Regardless I realize that this rule is hardly universal.
Even-numbered 3di are loops/bypasses that connect back to the parent. Odd-numbered 3di are spurs that go into an urban area from a parent. Interstates like 196 and 355 that connect two different 2di don't really fit either category. More often than not, they get odd numbers.
Odd-numbered 3DI don't have to go into an urban area, they just don't connect to a 3DI or 2DI. I-575 and I-985 in GA, for example, don't go to urban areas and they don't connect to a 3DI or 2DI.
355 connects a 2DI with a 3DI.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 30, 2018, 02:45:32 PM
I thought the rule was that even numbered 3dis connected back to the same interstate - not just any interstate. That way you could be assured that you would eventually get back to the same mainline interstate. Regardless I realize that this rule is hardly universal.
I-280 in Ohio would be a good example of this. Then again, not all 3di's starting with an even digit are numbered consistently with the "rule." In any case, if it starts with an even number, it is meant to go around or through something, as an alternative alignment to something that could be accomplished by 2di's. If it starts with an odd number, it's a spur route to something. That's the intent, anyway.
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis. Then it might be time to make M-6 into I-267 or something like that. No big deal if that doesn't happen though. I-196 should absolutely start with an odd digit, though. It would only get an even first digit if it were meant as an alternate to an existing Interstate route from Benton Harbor, which...I'm pretty sure no one is considering I-96 east to I-94 west as a feasible route from Grand Rapids to Benton Harbor.
Think about it this way: The difference between I-1xx and I-2xx is the same as the difference between a "business spur" and a "business loop", regarding the green Interstate business route thingies.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
It's been a while since I've looked at the original plan but I believe that what is now US 131 between I-80/90 and I-96 was supposed to be I-67.
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 01, 2018, 08:53:39 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
It's been a while since I've looked at the original plan but I believe that what is now US 131 between I-80/90 and I-96 was supposed to be I-67.
To me it would have made more sense to go with US-131 as I-67 instead of I-196. Michigan is done building 2-di's as far as I know, I-73 will never happen and I-67 mine as well be shelved as well. I'm not sure if Michigan would build another 3-di but it doesn't seem likely there either.
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
Going through Kalamazoo would have been better than going along the lake.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2018, 11:39:32 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 01, 2018, 08:53:39 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
It's been a while since I've looked at the original plan but I believe that what is now US 131 between I-80/90 and I-96 was supposed to be I-67.
To me it would have made more sense to go with US-131 as I-67 instead of I-196. Michigan is done building 2-di's as far as I know, I-73 will never happen and I-67 mine as well be shelved as well. I'm not sure if Michigan would build another 3-di but it doesn't seem likely there either.
The only way I-73 will ever be signed in MI is if it uses the existing US-23 freeway from Flint to Toledo (which isn't Interstate standard in sections). In fact, I don't see Michigan ever building another mile of new freeway unless there is a MAJOR population boom somewhere.
Quote from: ftballfan on May 05, 2018, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2018, 11:39:32 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 01, 2018, 08:53:39 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
It's been a while since I've looked at the original plan but I believe that what is now US 131 between I-80/90 and I-96 was supposed to be I-67.
To me it would have made more sense to go with US-131 as I-67 instead of I-196. Michigan is done building 2-di's as far as I know, I-73 will never happen and I-67 mine as well be shelved as well. I'm not sure if Michigan would build another 3-di but it doesn't seem likely there either.
The only way I-73 will ever be signed in MI is if it uses the existing US-23 freeway from Flint to Toledo (which isn't Interstate standard in sections). In fact, I don't see Michigan ever building another mile of new freeway unless there is a MAJOR population boom somewhere.
And I don't see that happening especially considering Ohio would have to build their section as well. I'm pretty sure Michigan is done building new freeways anywhere. The only thing I could see done is finishing the gap on US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns but at least they did increase the speed limit on that stretch to 65 mph. US-23 between Flint and the Ohio line has always annoyed me because it's only two lanes in each direction when the traffic volumes call for at least three lanes in each direction, in some places four lanes in each direction like from I-96 to US-12. That Brighton-Ann Arbor stretch is awful and the new flex lanes they have aren't going to help much.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 05, 2018, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on May 05, 2018, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2018, 11:39:32 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 01, 2018, 08:53:39 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
It's been a while since I've looked at the original plan but I believe that what is now US 131 between I-80/90 and I-96 was supposed to be I-67.
To me it would have made more sense to go with US-131 as I-67 instead of I-196. Michigan is done building 2-di's as far as I know, I-73 will never happen and I-67 mine as well be shelved as well. I'm not sure if Michigan would build another 3-di but it doesn't seem likely there either.
The only way I-73 will ever be signed in MI is if it uses the existing US-23 freeway from Flint to Toledo (which isn't Interstate standard in sections). In fact, I don't see Michigan ever building another mile of new freeway unless there is a MAJOR population boom somewhere.
And I don't see that happening especially considering Ohio would have to build their section as well. I'm pretty sure Michigan is done building new freeways anywhere. The only thing I could see done is finishing the gap on US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns but at least they did increase the speed limit on that stretch to 65 mph. US-23 between Flint and the Ohio line has always annoyed me because it's only two lanes in each direction when the traffic volumes call for at least three lanes in each direction, in some places four lanes in each direction like from I-96 to US-12. That Brighton-Ann Arbor stretch is awful and the new flex lanes they have aren't going to help much.
I guess that a US 41 bypass of Menominee is going to remain a distant dream as well....
:no:
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on May 05, 2018, 11:01:34 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 05, 2018, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on May 05, 2018, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2018, 11:39:32 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 01, 2018, 08:53:39 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
It's been a while since I've looked at the original plan but I believe that what is now US 131 between I-80/90 and I-96 was supposed to be I-67.
To me it would have made more sense to go with US-131 as I-67 instead of I-196. Michigan is done building 2-di's as far as I know, I-73 will never happen and I-67 mine as well be shelved as well. I'm not sure if Michigan would build another 3-di but it doesn't seem likely there either.
The only way I-73 will ever be signed in MI is if it uses the existing US-23 freeway from Flint to Toledo (which isn't Interstate standard in sections). In fact, I don't see Michigan ever building another mile of new freeway unless there is a MAJOR population boom somewhere.
And I don't see that happening especially considering Ohio would have to build their section as well. I'm pretty sure Michigan is done building new freeways anywhere. The only thing I could see done is finishing the gap on US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns but at least they did increase the speed limit on that stretch to 65 mph. US-23 between Flint and the Ohio line has always annoyed me because it's only two lanes in each direction when the traffic volumes call for at least three lanes in each direction, in some places four lanes in each direction like from I-96 to US-12. That Brighton-Ann Arbor stretch is awful and the new flex lanes they have aren't going to help much.
I guess that a US 41 bypass of Menominee is going to remain a distant dream as well....
:no:
Mike
Speaking of US-41 I had always wondered why it didn't take M-35's route between Menominee and Escanaba since US highways were suppose to take the most direct route between two points. Well I found out that State Highway Department (the predecessor to today's MDOT) had long-range plans to continue US-41 directly north of US-2 at Powers on new alignment through northern Menominee and southern Marquette Counties to the Gwinn area, then northerly via the present-day M-553 corridor into Marquette. That actually makes more sense since US-41 spends a lot of time going east and west in Michigan.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 05, 2018, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on May 05, 2018, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2018, 11:39:32 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 01, 2018, 08:53:39 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
I like the idea of an I-67 along I-196 and US31 to Indianapolis.
I honestly have no idea why that wasn't included in the original Interstate highway build plans. Certainly Grand Rapids and South Bend are sizable enough cities to connect, and Indiana thought enough of the South Bend - Indianapolis connection to 4-lane it.
It's been a while since I've looked at the original plan but I believe that what is now US 131 between I-80/90 and I-96 was supposed to be I-67.
To me it would have made more sense to go with US-131 as I-67 instead of I-196. Michigan is done building 2-di's as far as I know, I-73 will never happen and I-67 mine as well be shelved as well. I'm not sure if Michigan would build another 3-di but it doesn't seem likely there either.
The only way I-73 will ever be signed in MI is if it uses the existing US-23 freeway from Flint to Toledo (which isn't Interstate standard in sections). In fact, I don't see Michigan ever building another mile of new freeway unless there is a MAJOR population boom somewhere.
And I don't see that happening especially considering Ohio would have to build their section as well. I'm pretty sure Michigan is done building new freeways anywhere. The only thing I could see done is finishing the gap on US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns but at least they did increase the speed limit on that stretch to 65 mph. US-23 between Flint and the Ohio line has always annoyed me because it's only two lanes in each direction when the traffic volumes call for at least three lanes in each direction, in some places four lanes in each direction like from I-96 to US-12. That Brighton-Ann Arbor stretch is awful and the new flex lanes they have aren't going to help much.
However, I could see some existing two-lane roads upgraded to four-lane divided or five-lane undivided in fast-growing areas. There will still be a little bit of major freeway construction as MI has several portions that could use major upgrades (US-23 between M-14 (east) and I-94, the I-96/I-196 junction, I-75 and I-94 in metro Detroit)
^^ Actually, you should upgrade US-23 from M-14 south to M-50/Dundee. The stretch around Milan is substandard.
Another thing I was thinking of with US-41 was that it could have run multiplexed with US-2 west of Powers to Iron Mountain and then use M-95 to Humboldt. I guess that would however leave Marquette without a US highway.
Quote from: mgk920 on May 05, 2018, 11:01:34 PM
I guess that a US 41 bypass of Menominee is going to remain a distant dream as well....
:no:
Mike
A US 41 bypass of Marinette and Menominee wouldn't need to be a full freeway. An upgradable expressway with interchanges at major crossings like WI 64 would be adequate.
Quote from: skluth on May 10, 2018, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on May 05, 2018, 11:01:34 PM
I guess that a US 41 bypass of Menominee is going to remain a distant dream as well....
:no:
Mike
A US 41 bypass of Marinette and Menominee wouldn't need to be a full freeway. An upgradable expressway with interchanges at major crossings like WI 64 would be adequate.
I wouldn't hold your breath for even that to happen in the next 50 years.
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 14, 2018, 12:57:21 AM
Quote from: skluth on May 10, 2018, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on May 05, 2018, 11:01:34 PM
I guess that a US 41 bypass of Menominee is going to remain a distant dream as well....
:no:
Mike
A US 41 bypass of Marinette and Menominee wouldn't need to be a full freeway. An upgradable expressway with interchanges at major crossings like WI 64 would be adequate.
I wouldn't hold your breath for even that to happen in the next 50 years.
Completely agree. Both states finances are a mess with new roads being a low priority and there's not that much demand for it.
Will they at least complete the US 31 freeway between Napier Avenue and Interstate 94 within the next 50 years?
Saw #67 and got excited :biggrin:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F823%2F28255484118_efdbe60853_b.jpg&hash=56cf954cf85f40a183f77a8a4494b1518f8075d0)
Then I read this :-|
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F951%2F41227246625_a49b780815_b.jpg&hash=dc09c16242c7b6bc3981dc022504ae03ce0b2034)
MLive Article (http://www.mlive.com/expo/erry-2018/04/c1159472357261/construction_projects_coming_t.html)
Quote from: adwerkema on May 15, 2018, 10:01:36 AM
Saw #67 and got excited :biggrin:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F823%2F28255484118_efdbe60853_b.jpg&hash=56cf954cf85f40a183f77a8a4494b1518f8075d0)
Then I read this :-|
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F951%2F41227246625_a49b780815_b.jpg&hash=dc09c16242c7b6bc3981dc022504ae03ce0b2034)
MLive article: http://www.mlive.com/expo/erry-2018/04/c1159472357261/construction_projects_coming_t.html (http://www.mlive.com/expo/erry-2018/04/c1159472357261/construction_projects_coming_t.html)
According to that map the gap between Napier Avenue and I-196 is filled in.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:37:53 AM
According to that map the gap between Napier Avenue and I-196 is filled in.
Perhaps that's MDOT's way of "fixing" a problem. :-D
Quote from: adwerkema on May 15, 2018, 11:46:02 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:37:53 AM
According to that map the gap between Napier Avenue and I-196 is filled in.
Perhaps that's MDOT's way of "fixing" a problem. :-D
Lol just put it on the map and when you come to a stub end you wonder what the heck is this?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 14, 2018, 06:42:33 PM
Will they at least complete the US 31 freeway between Napier Avenue and Interstate 94 within the next 50 years?
Define "complete." Most recent plan (unfunded and unscheduled) is to extend the freeway and turn it west to intersect with I-94 and Business I-94 (exit 33) at a new cloverleaf interchange, with C/D lanes between there and I-196/US-31 (exit 34).
No matter what way they go with US-31 it's going to involve demolishing several houses. Main Street picks up on the other side of I-94 as a dead end and runs back to Benton Center Road.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 18, 2018, 03:07:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 14, 2018, 06:42:33 PM
Will they at least complete the US 31 freeway between Napier Avenue and Interstate 94 within the next 50 years?
Define "complete." Most recent plan (unfunded and unscheduled) is to extend the freeway and turn it west to intersect with I-94 and Business I-94 (exit 33) at a new cloverleaf interchange, with C/D lanes between there and I-196/US-31 (exit 34).
I'm surprised MDOT doesn't just redo the Napier interchange so 31 curves into Napier west directly, with east Napier coming to a T intersecion (while redoing the I-94/Napier interchange). Traffic counts there don't really warrant the completion of the last segment of 31 freeway (the freeway 31 north of Berrien Springs has a lower AADT than its former route (M-139); however, Napier does have a slightly higher AADT than M-139 due to the local community college being off Napier between 94 and 31). Benton Harbor being in decline doesn't help matters.
Napier Avenue is already a four lane road with a turn lane from Blue Creek Road to I-94. It stays four lanes until it enters St. Joseph but loses it's turn lane at Union Avenue. I don't see what would be wrong with having it go to the north of Britain Avenue then swing to the west and connect to I-94 between Britain Avenue and Highland Avenue, to directly connect into exit 33 they would have to remove some buildings. I think going along Napier Avenue with a full freeway would require too many buildings to be demolished.
The best case would be to go directly north to just north of Highland Avenue but then you'd need to curve it to the east to get around the houses where Blue Creek Road curves, then curve back to the north and go directly into I-196.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 18, 2018, 03:07:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 14, 2018, 06:42:33 PM
Will they at least complete the US 31 freeway between Napier Avenue and Interstate 94 within the next 50 years?
Define "complete." Most recent plan (unfunded and unscheduled) is to extend the freeway and turn it west to intersect with I-94 and Business I-94 (exit 33) at a new cloverleaf interchange, with C/D lanes between there and I-196/US-31 (exit 34).
I stand corrected. In MDOT's current five-year plan 2018-2022, this appears to be scheduled for construction in 2021. I missed it when looking earlier.
Sweet news. Matty Moroun no longer owns Michigan Central Station. He sold it to Ford.
Not-so-sweet news: A contractor had to tear up about a half-mile of freshly laid concrete on the I-696 rebuild in Roseville late last week after it failed to meet quality standards.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/06/19/696-concrete-construction-cement/713262002/
As it makes its way between I-696 and M-59, I-75 behaves like the constellation Cassiopeia, making 90 degree turns as if following section lines. What's the backstory as to that alignment?
ixnay
Quote from: ixnay on August 12, 2018, 08:28:11 PM
As it makes its way between I-696 and M-59, I-75 behaves like the constellation Cassiopeia, making 90 degree turns as if following section lines. What's the backstory as to that alignment?
ixnay
It's just the way it goes through Troy to get better aligned to enter Detroit. There is a 50 mph curve just south of Nine Mile Road in Hazel Park too.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2018, 02:22:43 AM
Quote from: ixnay on August 12, 2018, 08:28:11 PM
As it makes its way between I-696 and M-59, I-75 behaves like the constellation Cassiopeia, making 90 degree turns as if following section lines. What's the backstory as to that alignment?
ixnay
It's just the way it goes through Troy to get better aligned to enter Detroit. There is a 50 mph curve just south of Nine Mile Road in Hazel Park too.
Probably mostly to do with land acquisition. It's easier to assemble parcels in straight N-S and E-W rows than on a diagonal. And the leftover pieces not used for the freeway have better access and use potentials than triangular shaped parcels would have. So overall, they might not have had to get as much land by eminent domain.
In 2019 and 2020, I-96 will be slightly realigned around the I-196/East Beltline mess. Tree clearing has been happening already: https://www.woodtv.com/news/traffic/mdot-to-reconstruct-frustrating-i-96i-196-interchange/1368143077
Quote from: ftballfan on August 14, 2018, 01:38:00 PM
In 2019 and 2020, I-96 will be slightly realigned around the I-196/East Beltline mess. Tree clearing has been happening already: https://www.woodtv.com/news/traffic/mdot-to-reconstruct-frustrating-i-96i-196-interchange/1368143077
Very exciting!!
As an aside, I find it funny you posted this only 25 minutes after the article was posted. Were you following this before the article was posted?
Quote from: ftballfan on August 14, 2018, 01:38:00 PM
In 2019 and 2020, I-96 will be slightly realigned around the I-196/East Beltline mess. Tree clearing has been happening already: https://www.woodtv.com/news/traffic/mdot-to-reconstruct-frustrating-i-96i-196-interchange/1368143077
I wish to blazes they would do the same to eliminate the weave/merge on southbound M-10 between the I-696 entrance and the US-24 exits in Southfield. The whole weave/merge area is often at a complete standstill during morning rush hours because northbound US-24 is backed up, and that backs up eastbound 696 for a couple miles.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 22, 2018, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on August 14, 2018, 01:38:00 PM
In 2019 and 2020, I-96 will be slightly realigned around the I-196/East Beltline mess. Tree clearing has been happening already: https://www.woodtv.com/news/traffic/mdot-to-reconstruct-frustrating-i-96i-196-interchange/1368143077
I wish to blazes they would do the same to eliminate the weave/merge on southbound M-10 between the I-696 entrance and the US-24 exits in Southfield. The whole weave/merge area is often at a complete standstill during morning rush hours because northbound US-24 is backed up, and that backs up eastbound 696 for a couple miles.
Telegraph always backs up in that area, between the Mixing Bowl and 12 Mile I think there's something like 85,000-90,000 vehicles that use Telegraph every day.
Freep: U.S. 23 flex route experiment reducing congestion, but crashes up slightly
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/community/livingston-county/2018/09/07/us-23-flex-route-congestion-traffic-crashes-ann-arbor-brighton-green-oak/1204103002/
US-23 along its entire length is a ripe candidate for permanent 6-laning; some sections on the east side of Ann Arbor would justify 8-laning. Neither the throughput improvement nor the slight bump in crashes comes as any surprise to this observer.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 07, 2018, 07:41:38 PM
Freep: U.S. 23 flex route experiment reducing congestion, but crashes up slightly
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/community/livingston-county/2018/09/07/us-23-flex-route-congestion-traffic-crashes-ann-arbor-brighton-green-oak/1204103002/
US-23 along its entire length is a ripe candidate for permanent 6-laning; some sections on the east side of Ann Arbor would justify 8-laning. Neither the throughput improvement nor the slight bump in crashes comes as any surprise to this observer.
I agree. I think US-23 should be six lanes from Flint to the state line or a little before the state line unless Ohio six laned their stretch of US-23 there. And yes I would say pretty much everything from I-96 to I-94 should be eight lanes.
Every time I've used US-23 I have always had the problem with the left lane campers. You'll be wanting to do 80 but you'll have someone hanging out in the left lane doing 70 or so and no one in front of them and not passing anyone but yet there they are hanging out in the left lane with traffic backing up behind them. Some people just don't get it and that type of driving just makes me drive worse. I always dread losing the third lane when I'm on I-75 approaching the split at mile marker 115 and have to use US-23, actually I-75 goes down to four lanes too but gets it's six lanes back after I-475 dumps into it.
MDOT has put two freeway signs for the I-75 Pontiac Silverdome exits up for bid. The two aluminum signs are each roughly 7 feet by 14 feet, weigh approximately 225 pounds, and are in good condition. Bidding ends Monday 09/24. MDOT regularly recycles old highway signs, but there has been quite a bit of interest in these particular signs since the Silverdome was torn down.
Those interested in bidding can go to the MiBid auction website (https://mibid.bidcorp.com/auctions) and register to participate. The site features pictures and other details on the items available. Winning bidders will need to pick up the signs by Wednesday 09/26 at the MDOT Auburn Hills garage.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-476676--,00.html
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 19, 2018, 11:00:12 PM
MDOT has put two freeway signs for the I-75 Pontiac Silverdome exits up for bid. The two aluminum signs are each roughly 7 feet by 14 feet, weigh approximately 225 pounds, and are in good condition. Bidding ends Monday 09/24. MDOT regularly recycles old highway signs, but there has been quite a bit of interest in these particular signs since the Silverdome was torn down.
Those interested in bidding can go to the MiBid auction website (https://mibid.bidcorp.com/auctions) and register to participate. The site features pictures and other details on the items available. Winning bidders will need to pick up the signs by Wednesday 09/26 at the MDOT Auburn Hills garage.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-476676--,00.html
Lots of bidding interest in them, too. I'm wondering if one or both might end up in a sports bar somewhere in SE Michigan.
Mike
I noticed Michigan 20 is a very nice 5 lane highway from Midland to Mount Pleasant. I was looking for a route over to Bay City from Illinois and it looked more direct to go up 196 and over the north central part of the state than the bad traffic on 94. It does go back down to two lanes from Mt. Pleasant to the freeway at 131 and you have to jog south on 66 over to 46. That Marathon just east of the Casino in Mt. Pleasant had the cleanest bathrooms I've ever seen in a gas station. Sort of a fancy log cabin theme inside the minimart there.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:44:23 AM
I noticed Michigan 20 is a very nice 5 lane highway from Midland to Mount Pleasant. I was looking for a route over to Bay City from Illinois and it looked more direct to go up 196 and over the north central part of the state than the bad traffic on 94. It does go back down to two lanes from Mt. Pleasant to the freeway at 131 and you have to jog south on 66 over to 46. That Marathon just east of the Casino in Mt. Pleasant had the cleanest bathrooms I've ever seen in a gas station. Sort of a fancy log cabin theme inside the minimart there.
Yeah M-20 is two lanes in each direction with a turn lane. There are actually a lot of accidents on that stretch of M-20 though, the speed limit is 55 mph.
If you are good at following back roads I can give you a route to Bay City from SW Michigan that would be fine to take. Take US-131 up to exit 125 which is Jefferson Road, make a right on Jefferson, when you get to the end of the street in Morley make a left onto Cass Street, it'll become Northland Drive. Follow that up to 5 Mile and make a right, at 70th Avenue follow the curve onto 70th Avenue going north, that'll take you up to M-20 where it's called 9 Mile Road and M-20 is on a curve right there so make a right onto M-20 and a sort of a bypass of Mt. Pleasant would be to make a left on Meridian Road (there are two Meridian Road's and this is not the one that follows the Michigan Meridian) about a mile after that turn make a right onto E. Pickard, after Mission you'll rejoin M-20 follow that all the way to Midland and M-20 will end into the US-10 freeway, actually it'll be a freeway to freeway interchange. Then follow US-10 right into Bay City. I have taken this route quite a few times and it's a pleasant drive for most of it and the only major city you go through is Grand Rapids.
I don't think that Marathon has been there for very long. I don't remember it from awhile ago but have been past it a few times so I know it's there.
Michigan doesn't really have a good SW to NE route really anywhere in the state north of a Grand Rapids to Flint line. US-127 stair-steps westward as it climbs north from Lansing, and then you don't have a good 4-lane connection eastward until Mount Pleasant. There's no good 4-lane connection west of US-127 anywhere north of Lansing. Basically, you see that SW-NE traffic to/from Bay City and Saginaw funneled onto I-69, I-75, and US-23.
Making M-20 a 5-lane surface road was cheaper than purchasing ROW for a 4-lane expressway, and it won't be truly problematic until traffic climbs north of 20,000 vpd. Central Michigan University and the Soaring Eagle are the main traffic generators in Mount Pleasant, and there's no destination west of Mount Pleasant that would organically cause M-20 traffic to increase in the next 20-30 years. Any trips originating from metro Detroit will simply take I-96 to US-127.
MDOT simply has no appetite for new freeways or capacity expansion, and hasn't for 40 years. There's been piecemeal upgrades, but no end-to-end long-distance through-traffic relief. I-96, I-94, and US-23 are overdue for an end-to-end 6/8 laning, as well as extensive sections of US-131. US-127 south of Jackson to US-12 carries nearly 20,000 vpd on a road that's ostensibly a 2-lane (albeit with lots of band-aids). M-89 and M-40 linking Holland to Kalamazoo and Battle Creek has needed 4-laning for years. US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca is still a surface road 20 years after the St. Johns bypass was built out, and 50+ years after the rest of the highway between Jackson and I-75 was built out as freeway. The MDOT of the 1950s-1970s was much more aggressive about adding capacity.
Quote from: ftballfan on August 14, 2018, 01:38:00 PM
In 2019 and 2020, I-96 will be slightly realigned around the I-196/East Beltline mess. Tree clearing has been happening already: https://www.woodtv.com/news/traffic/mdot-to-reconstruct-frustrating-i-96i-196-interchange/1368143077
This is very sorely needed. Making I-96 eastbound traffic jump lanes to get to the Beltline Road exit just a few hundred feet after the I-196 merge was asking too much. Funneling Beltline traffic away from the respective interstates before the merge will untangle that knot. I'm glad they're addressing it and giving it an aggressive timeline to get it done.
I've always had it in my head about how to fix it, and the proposed map is very close to what I thought they would do.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 29, 2018, 05:07:14 PM
Michigan doesn't really have a good SW to NE route really anywhere in the state north of a Grand Rapids to Flint line. US-127 stair-steps westward as it climbs north from Lansing, and then you don't have a good 4-lane connection eastward until Mount Pleasant. There's no good 4-lane connection west of US-127 anywhere north of Lansing. Basically, you see that SW-NE traffic to/from Bay City and Saginaw funneled onto I-69, I-75, and US-23.
Making M-20 a 5-lane surface road was cheaper than purchasing ROW for a 4-lane expressway, and it won't be truly problematic until traffic climbs north of 20,000 vpd. Central Michigan University and the Soaring Eagle are the main traffic generators in Mount Pleasant, and there's no destination west of Mount Pleasant that would organically cause M-20 traffic to increase in the next 20-30 years. Any trips originating from metro Detroit will simply take I-96 to US-127.
MDOT simply has no appetite for new freeways or capacity expansion, and hasn't for 40 years. There's been piecemeal upgrades, but no end-to-end long-distance through-traffic relief. I-96, I-94, and US-23 are overdue for an end-to-end 6/8 laning, as well as extensive sections of US-131. US-127 south of Jackson to US-12 carries nearly 20,000 vpd on a road that's ostensibly a 2-lane (albeit with lots of band-aids). M-89 and M-40 linking Holland to Kalamazoo and Battle Creek has needed 4-laning for years. US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca is still a surface road 20 years after the St. Johns bypass was built out, and 50+ years after the rest of the highway between Jackson and I-75 was built out as freeway. The MDOT of the 1950s-1970s was much more aggressive about adding capacity.
That is true. You have to do a lot of shifting to go SW to NE or vice versa in Michigan. Using US-131, US-127 and I-75 you can go north and south pretty good but going east and west you're stuck with mostly two lane state highways like M-46, M-20, M-55, M-72 and M-32. Basically you have to do your north travel and then go west. It's too bad they don't have another state highway like M-115 going the other direction, that would make it easier.
US-127 and I-496 on the east side of Lansing needs a six-laning. What it's going to get instead are band-aids.
MDOT considers improvements to US-127/I-496 interchange
https://www.wlns.com/news/mdot-considers-improvements-to-us-127i-496-interchange/1528998113?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_WLNS-TV (https://www.wlns.com/news/mdot-considers-improvements-to-us-127i-496-interchange/1528998113?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_WLNS-TV)
I-475 will finally be getting a makeover.
https://www.abc12.com/content/news/More-closures-on-I-475-start-Monday-to-prepare-for-44-million-project-495314231.html
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 17, 2018, 11:39:19 AM
I-475 will finally be getting a makeover.
https://www.abc12.com/content/news/More-closures-on-I-475-start-Monday-to-prepare-for-44-million-project-495314231.html
From the article:
QuoteThe Michigan Department of Transportation is starting joint repairs and resurfacing on I-475 from Carpenter Road to Clio Road...
QuoteNext year, the entire three-mile stretch of I-475 between Carpenter and Clio roads will be completely rebuilt.
Am I reading this correctly? Once again, MDOT has allowed a freeway to deteriorate to hell and then does major repair and resurfacing only a year before tearing it all up and completely reconstructing it?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 20, 2018, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 17, 2018, 11:39:19 AM
I-475 will finally be getting a makeover.
https://www.abc12.com/content/news/More-closures-on-I-475-start-Monday-to-prepare-for-44-million-project-495314231.html
From the article:
QuoteThe Michigan Department of Transportation is starting joint repairs and resurfacing on I-475 from Carpenter Road to Clio Road...
QuoteNext year, the entire three-mile stretch of I-475 between Carpenter and Clio roads will be completely rebuilt.
Am I reading this correctly? Once again, MDOT has allowed a freeway to deteriorate to hell and then does major repair and resurfacing only a year before tearing it all up and completely reconstructing it?
I think they have allowed more than just I-475 to deteriorate to hell. I-475 is in awful shape between Clio Road and Carpenter Road and should have been rebuilt 10 years ago or more. I don't know what it is with the roads in Genesee County but they are just pathetic. They just reconstructed I-69 in between I-475 and I-75 which was just as bad as I-475. Linden Road which isn't under their radar is in real bad shape as are a bunch of other major roads in the county. I don't understand why they are resurfacing it now when they are going to tear it all up and reconstruct it next year. MDOT seriously needs to get busy on reconstructing these major roads that are a mess.
Just to show a picture of what it looks like on I-475, this is pretty much the way the entire stretch between Clio Road and Carpenter Road looks:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0996199,-83.7065895,3a,75y,256.97h,86.05t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1s_a-vdxUodjCEYTMVmDaLLA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D_a-vdxUodjCEYTMVmDaLLA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D26.186766%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100
Also the pavement changes about a half mile east of the Clio Road exit, from that point to the northern terminus it's not too bad. If you see Hughes Drain and a little pond just west of Beecher High School it's in between there where the pavement changes.
I feel better now that I pretty much told MDOT how I feel about them. There is an intersection in Saginaw County that has a high number of accidents. It's on a state highway (M-58) at Hemmeter Road in Saginaw Township. The traffic light that is there lacks a left turn arrow. Westbound M-58 has three lanes, there is a turn lane and eastbound M-58 has two lanes making the entire highway six lanes. When traffic making a left turn from eastbound M-58 to northbound Hemmeter they have to encounter traffic backups in all three lanes and sometimes it'll take 5 or 6 lights for someone to make a turn if they are 5 or 6 cars back at the light. Well there were three accidents at this intersection today and I let MDOT have it. This is now the third time I have approached MDOT about this intersection after Saginaw Township told me that MDOT has to do a study since State Street is a state highway.
This is what I'm talking about. Here on Google Maps you will see the three lanes on the left closest to the BP station. Where I have the view is the spot you'd be sitting in trying to make a left turn off of eastbound State Street onto northbound Hemmeter. The Rendevious and black truck are making a left turn from eastbound State to northbound Hemmeter. In this view the traffic isn't too bad.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4367678,-84.0052482,3a,75y,93.56h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP36WsacargGOM0XwhAXAeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 16, 2018, 11:27:24 PM
US-127 and I-496 on the east side of Lansing needs a six-laning. What it's going to get instead are band-aids.
MDOT considers improvements to US-127/I-496 interchange
https://www.wlns.com/news/mdot-considers-improvements-to-us-127i-496-interchange/1528998113?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_WLNS-TV (https://www.wlns.com/news/mdot-considers-improvements-to-us-127i-496-interchange/1528998113?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_WLNS-TV)
That's not even a band-aid. That's not even your mother licking her thumb to wipe off some crud. But, hey, they've got spiffy new Clearview signage!
MDOT announced a $25-$30 million dollar project to replace the Church Street park deck over I-696 in Oak Park. The bridge has been leaking significant quantities of water of water onto the freeway for years (which makes for a real driving adventure in winter), and apparently will continue to do so for some years since the replacement won't happen until 2024-2025. This after the state has already spent several million dollars trying to stop the existing bridge from leaking.
But, hey, we've got new Clearview signs on that stretch of freeway, so it's not all bad.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/11/17/oak-park-bridge-696-replacement/2027697002/
MDOT keeps chipping away at US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns. Now the Y-intersection with Bagley Rd is slated to be cul-de-sac'ed in December with barriers, with a permanent reconfiguration in 2020.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-482820--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-482820--,00.html)
Map of location: https://goo.gl/maps/Ebzs2A4YoqR2 (https://goo.gl/maps/Ebzs2A4YoqR2)
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 27, 2018, 09:25:02 PM
MDOT keeps chipping away at US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns. Now the Y-intersection with Bagley Rd is slated to be cul-de-sac'ed in December with barriers, with a permanent reconfiguration in 2020.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-482820--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-482820--,00.html)
Map of location: https://goo.gl/maps/Ebzs2A4YoqR2 (https://goo.gl/maps/Ebzs2A4YoqR2)
I'm wondering if the ultimate plan there is to extend Bagley Rd south to Pierce Rd as a frontage road when Pierce Rd is cut off from US 127.
Mike
I don't see any reason to do with anything with Bagley Road there unless they are finally going to fill in the gap in the freeway. They at least have it 65 mph through there now. Uncle John's Cedar Mill is a major landmark on that highway too. I'd leave US-127 the way it is and worry about other highways in this state.
I see where Michigan permanently closed the I-275 rest area near Westland. Wonder which ones will be next. MDOT has closed a few rest areas in recent years (EB I-94 near Coloma, both US-127 rest areas in Roscommon County, WB I-96 near Howell). I also noticed that the seasonal Hart rest area closed earlier than normal (when I went through that area a couple of weeks ago, the Hart rest area was closed but the also-seasonal Ludington rest area was open).
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 27, 2018, 09:25:02 PM
MDOT keeps chipping away at US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns. Now the Y-intersection with Bagley Rd is slated to be cul-de-sac'ed in December with barriers, with a permanent reconfiguration in 2020.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-482820--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-482820--,00.html)
Map of location: https://goo.gl/maps/Ebzs2A4YoqR2 (https://goo.gl/maps/Ebzs2A4YoqR2)
I just wonder if this is because too many vehicles heading from Bagley Road to southbound US-127 were getting T-boned while crossing the northbound lanes. The press release specifies "closing access to US-127 from Bagley Road" but isn't clear about the reverse: Whether northbound US-127 traffic will still be able to exit to Bagley.
I would love for all of US 127 between St. John's and Ithaca to be 100% up to freeway stanards, like the rest of the corridor between Lansing and Grayling. I, of course, know that is very far from being a priority of Michigan's DOT, and will likely only happen incrementally.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 29, 2018, 05:28:19 PM
I would love for all of US 127 between St. John's and Ithaca to be 100% up to freeway stanards, like the rest of the corridor between Lansing and Grayling. I, of course, know that is very far from being a priority of Michigan's DOT, and will likely only happen incrementally.
Even more unlikely since they added a handful of J-turns north of St. Johns a couple years ago. I'm honestly surprised that they're closing the intersection at Bagley Rd, but I understand if it's from a safety perspective.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 29, 2018, 05:28:19 PM
I would love for all of US 127 between St. John's and Ithaca to be 100% up to freeway stanards, like the rest of the corridor between Lansing and Grayling. I, of course, know that is very far from being a priority of Michigan's DOT, and will likely only happen incrementally.
Actually it's a freeway between Jackson and Lansing too. It starts being a freeway a little south of Jackson then runs with I-94 for a few miles and runs as a freeway straight to Grayling with the exception of the St. Johns to Ithaca gap. I would rather see them widen both I-94 and US-23 both of which are in dire need to be widened. I-94 is a disaster between Benton Harbor and Ann Arbor and US-23 is a disaster between Flint and Ann Arbor, south of Ann Arbor it's not too bad.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 29, 2018, 01:00:37 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 27, 2018, 09:25:02 PM
MDOT keeps chipping away at US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns. Now the Y-intersection with Bagley Rd is slated to be cul-de-sac'ed in December with barriers, with a permanent reconfiguration in 2020.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-482820--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-482820--,00.html)
Map of location: https://goo.gl/maps/Ebzs2A4YoqR2 (https://goo.gl/maps/Ebzs2A4YoqR2)
I just wonder if this is because too many vehicles heading from Bagley Road to southbound US-127 were getting T-boned while crossing the northbound lanes. The press release specifies "closing access to US-127 from Bagley Road" but isn't clear about the reverse: Whether northbound US-127 traffic will still be able to exit to Bagley.
Seems unlikely that they would preserve an exit onto Bagley, given that the detour via US-127 and E Washington Rd is only another mile or so, and there's still currently access via other local roads. Also note the still-active railroad tracks - traffic waiting for the train could back up onto NBD US-127.
Quote from: pianocello on November 29, 2018, 06:28:48 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 29, 2018, 05:28:19 PM
I would love for all of US 127 between St. John's and Ithaca to be 100% up to freeway stanards, like the rest of the corridor between Lansing and Grayling. I, of course, know that is very far from being a priority of Michigan's DOT, and will likely only happen incrementally.
Even more unlikely since they added a handful of J-turns north of St. Johns a couple years ago. I'm honestly surprised that they're closing the intersection at Bagley Rd, but I understand if it's from a safety perspective.
It's the "we have no money approach - do a bunch of cheap things to limit cross-traffic and remove driveway access until such time that they have funding for larger improvements.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 19, 2017, 08:09:12 PM
And now for some local road ranting:
Just south of Lansing, MI, a local road, Columbia Road, had its bridge over the Grand River replaced this fall. Photos here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1729056883811157&id=1083529628363889 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1729056883811157&id=1083529628363889)
and
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1726116400771872&id=1083529628363889 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1726116400771872&id=1083529628363889)
Google map: https://goo.gl/maps/WZb4P6fZzeJ2 (https://goo.gl/maps/WZb4P6fZzeJ2)
To the surprise of utterly no one, there's been a fatal wreck at the Columbia Rd/S. Waverly Rd intersection north of Eaton Rapids, immediately adjacent to the new Columbia Rd. bridge over the Grand River. This bridge opened at the end of last year with a two-lane design that placed the beams above the road surface. Northbound travelers on S. Waverly Rd (which intersects with Columbia Rd at the eastern end of the bridge) had poor visibility because the bridge beams were blocking their view of traffic on Columbia Rd.
Ingham County Road Commission (which maintains the bridge and Columbia Rd, but not S. Waverly Rd - which is maintained by Eaton County) attempted to remedy this with a stop line on S. Waverly Rd painted far back to allow people to view cars in-between the bridge beams. But that stop line was largely ignored, and traffic on NBD Waverly Rd frequently pulled out when traffic on Columbia Rd was present. That's what happened with this latest accident.
UPDATE: 1 dead in accident on Columbia Road in Aurelius Townshiphttps://www.wilx.com/content/news/1-dead-in-accident-on-Columbia-Road-in-Aurelius-Township-500769012.html
The fix: New traffic signals, with possibly additional improvements to the intersection. For some reason, the road closure of S. Waverly Rd at the bridge is going to drag out most of the winter. ICRC has not specified exactly what is involved beyond the erection of the signals.
Had the bridge been widened to provide a turning lane and full-width shoulders/bike lanes when originally constructed, the obstruction would likely have been eliminated and the traffic signals unnecessary. However, with 4,500 vpd on Columbia Rd and 2000 vpd on S. Waverly Rd, the traffic signals were probably inevitable.
Dangerous intersection closed, will get traffic signal installmenthttps://www.wilx.com/content/news/Dangerous-intersection-closed-will-get-traffic-signal-installment-501673942.html (https://www.wilx.com/content/news/Dangerous-intersection-closed-will-get-traffic-signal-installment-501673942.html)
Drivers react to Waverly Road Closurehttps://www.wilx.com/content/news/Drivers-react-to-Waverly-Road-Closure-501682681.html (https://www.wilx.com/content/news/Drivers-react-to-Waverly-Road-Closure-501682681.html)
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 30, 2018, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 19, 2017, 08:09:12 PM
And now for some local road ranting:
Just south of Lansing, MI, a local road, Columbia Road, had its bridge over the Grand River replaced this fall. Photos here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1729056883811157&id=1083529628363889 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1729056883811157&id=1083529628363889)
and
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1726116400771872&id=1083529628363889 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1726116400771872&id=1083529628363889)
Google map: https://goo.gl/maps/WZb4P6fZzeJ2 (https://goo.gl/maps/WZb4P6fZzeJ2)
To the surprise of utterly no one, there's been a fatal wreck at the Columbia Rd/S. Waverly Rd intersection north of Eaton Rapids, immediately adjacent to the new Columbia Rd. bridge over the Grand River. This bridge opened at the end of last year with a two-lane design that placed the beams above the road surface. Northbound travelers on S. Waverly Rd (which intersects with Columbia Rd at the eastern end of the bridge) had poor visibility because the bridge beams were blocking their view of traffic on Columbia Rd.
Ingham County Road Commission (which maintains the bridge and Columbia Rd, but not S. Waverly Rd - which is maintained by Eaton County) attempted to remedy this with a stop line on S. Waverly Rd painted far back to allow people to view cars in-between the bridge beams. But that stop line was largely ignored, and traffic on NBD Waverly Rd frequently pulled out when traffic on Columbia Rd was present. That's what happened with this latest accident.
UPDATE: 1 dead in accident on Columbia Road in Aurelius Township
https://www.wilx.com/content/news/1-dead-in-accident-on-Columbia-Road-in-Aurelius-Township-500769012.html
The fix: New traffic signals, with possibly additional improvements to the intersection. For some reason, the road closure of S. Waverly Rd at the bridge is going to drag out most of the winter. ICRC has not specified exactly what is involved beyond the erection of the signals.
Had the bridge been widened to provide a turning lane and full-width shoulders/bike lanes when originally constructed, the obstruction would likely have been eliminated and the traffic signals unnecessary. However, with 4,500 vpd on Columbia Rd and 2000 vpd on S. Waverly Rd, the traffic signals were probably inevitable.
Dangerous intersection closed, will get traffic signal installment
https://www.wilx.com/content/news/Dangerous-intersection-closed-will-get-traffic-signal-installment-501673942.html (https://www.wilx.com/content/news/Dangerous-intersection-closed-will-get-traffic-signal-installment-501673942.html)
Drivers react to Waverly Road Closure
https://www.wilx.com/content/news/Drivers-react-to-Waverly-Road-Closure-501682681.html (https://www.wilx.com/content/news/Drivers-react-to-Waverly-Road-Closure-501682681.html)
I think the best thing to do would be to make it a three way stop, or put in a traffic light. I know the area doesn't see a ton of traffic so a three way stop would probably be the best thing to do.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:20:22 PM
I think the best thing to do would be to make it a three way stop, or put in a traffic light. I know the area doesn't see a ton of traffic so a three way stop would probably be the best thing to do.
The way the bridge and the intersection are positioned, there's very little space to make a stop sign visible, and it would more than likely get a blinker light anyway.
My suspicion is that ICRC is growing weary of dealing with the public sentiment about the bridge and figure a stop light will shut people up, or at least shift blame back to the drivers causing the wrecks.
I finally had occasion to drive the section of US-23 that has the flex lanes north of Ann Arbor (although not while they were in operation). And, honestly, I wasn't that impressed.
The section immediately north of the western US-23/M-14 interchange was nicely done with LED median lighting and concrete barrier, but after Territorial Rd the lighting went away and steel guardrail replaced the concrete barrier.
The traffic information system looks like a scaled-down version of the one in use on I-90 west of O'Hare - maybe TOO scaled-down. Instead of making the gantries wide enough for when US-23 is redone with full-width lanes, they are just barely wide enough to accommodate the existing roadway.
I didn't see a lot of obvious exit ramp improvements north of Territorial Rd - no extensions of deceleration lanes, for example. However, the on-ramp acceleration lanes did appear to have been brought up to modern standards.
Just shy of the M-36 Whitmore Lake exit the flex lanes unceremoniously disappear; I realize the M-36 overpass would've been $$$ to replace, but that seems to be a nasty chokepoint for NBD traffic when the flex lanes are in operation. Continuing on past M-36 a half-mile or so would've been helpful. At least SBD there's a long weave/merge lane between M-36 and Eight Mile Rd.
Hopefully before this stretch needs to be redone, MDOT can get proper funding to do a proper 6-laning through and past I-96 at Brighton, as well as 6-laning the section of US-23 on the east side of Ann Arbor. The flex lanes are a crutch until that funding appears.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 27, 2018, 03:20:56 AM
Hopefully before this stretch needs to be redone, MDOT can get proper funding to do a proper 6-laning through and past I-96 at Brighton, as well as 6-laning the section of US-23 on the east side of Ann Arbor. The flex lanes are a crutch until that funding appears.
MDOT has said that a proper widening of US-23 between Ann Arbor and Flint will cost a couple billion $$. That may be chump change in North Carolina or Virginia, but in Michigan don't hold your breath.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 30, 2018, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 19, 2017, 08:09:12 PM
And now for some local road ranting:
Just south of Lansing, MI, a local road, Columbia Road, had its bridge over the Grand River replaced this fall. Photos here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1729056883811157&id=1083529628363889 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1729056883811157&id=1083529628363889)
and
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1726116400771872&id=1083529628363889 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1726116400771872&id=1083529628363889)
Google map: https://goo.gl/maps/WZb4P6fZzeJ2 (https://goo.gl/maps/WZb4P6fZzeJ2)
To the surprise of utterly no one, there's been a fatal wreck at the Columbia Rd/S. Waverly Rd intersection north of Eaton Rapids, immediately adjacent to the new Columbia Rd. bridge over the Grand River. This bridge opened at the end of last year with a two-lane design that placed the beams above the road surface.
Interesting - except for prefab pedestrian bridges, I didn't think anyone else still used pony trusses.
I'm curious if anyone has an information about what's going on through I-94 through Central Detroit. The MDOT website indicates that a number of new bridges are being planned for the corridor, but that the freeway footprint is no longer being widened. I had thought that a new eight-lane cross-section was proposed for I-94. Is that no longer the case? On previous trips through the area, it looked like a few of the bridges in the western part of the city had been built long enough for a widened highway.
Apologies if there is a thread for this I missed. I didn't notice one, but I don't always read this section of the forum.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on January 14, 2019, 04:04:00 PM
I'm curious if anyone has an information about what's going on through I-94 through Central Detroit. The MDOT website indicates that a number of new bridges are being planned for the corridor, but that the freeway footprint is no longer being widened. I had thought that a new eight-lane cross-section was proposed for I-94. Is that no longer the case? On previous trips through the area, it looked like a few of the bridges in the western part of the city had been built long enough for a widened highway.
Apologies if there is a thread for this I missed. I didn't notice one, but I don't always read this section of the forum.
According to information from about 3-4 years ago 2019 is the year they're suppose to start working on I-94 and it'll last until 2036. The project extends from the I-96 interchange to Conner, about 7 miles and that will include expansion and repair of the highway along with replacement or repair of 67 aging bridges and six railroad overpasses. MDOT has said the plan includes removing the grass slopes along I-94 and replacing them with vertical retaining walls so that another lane can be added in each direction without actually widening the highway. Ten bridges, all built in the 1950s and categorized in poor or critical condition were replaced between 2016 and 2018. One major thing that will be done is the left lane exits and on ramps will all be eliminated because they are dangerous.
These are the ten bridges that were replaced between 2016 and 2018:
Trumbull (built in 1954): 2016
Gratiot Ave. (1958): 2017
Mt. Elliott St. (1955): 2017
Second Ave. (1954): 2017
Cass Ave. (1955): 2017
Chene St. (1956): 2017
Cadillac Ave. (1957): 2018
Brush St. (1955): 2018
French Road (1957): 2018
Concord Ave. (1958): 2018
^ Thanks.
So, I'm guessing when they talk about not increasing the freeway's footprint, it has more to do with the service roads that were once envisioned along the corridor.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on January 14, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
^ Thanks.
So, I'm guessing when they talk about not increasing the freeway's footprint, it has more to do with the service roads that were once envisioned along the corridor.
No problem. It looks like they aren't actually going to widen the footprint so I don't think many buildings will need to be demolished. The service drives should be through routed, right now they are discontinuous. There are stretches that are called Edsel Ford Service Dr but aren't even really a part of the service drive because they don't connect to the highway at all. Two back to back examples of that are right here https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3312466,-83.1487234,18.28z
Quote from: ftballfan on November 28, 2018, 07:10:03 PM
I see where Michigan permanently closed the I-275 rest area near Westland. Wonder which ones will be next. MDOT has closed a few rest areas in recent years (EB I-94 near Coloma, both US-127 rest areas in Roscommon County, WB I-96 near Howell). I also noticed that the seasonal Hart rest area closed earlier than normal (when I went through that area a couple of weeks ago, the Hart rest area was closed but the also-seasonal Ludington rest area was open).
There appears to be an abandoned one on SB I-196 by MM 14.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 08, 2018, 01:40:08 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:20:22 PM
I think the best thing to do would be to make it a three way stop, or put in a traffic light. I know the area doesn't see a ton of traffic so a three way stop would probably be the best thing to do.
The way the bridge and the intersection are positioned, there's very little space to make a stop sign visible, and it would more than likely get a blinker light anyway.
My suspicion is that ICRC is growing weary of dealing with the public sentiment about the bridge and figure a stop light will shut people up, or at least shift blame back to the drivers causing the wrecks.
I was down in that area the other day and actually happened to be on M-99 so I turned onto Columbia Road because I remembered about the intersection with Waverly. Well I went east on Columbia, crossed the Grand River and came upon the southern leg of Waverly which is currently closed south to Curtice Road. I'm assuming that maybe it's closed because of this. I looked on Google Maps and they confirmed that it's closed and said it'll be closed until late April. Putting a blinker light there would probably help with putting a three way stop sign in and then putting stop ahead signs on all sides would help as well.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2019, 11:20:08 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 08, 2018, 01:40:08 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:20:22 PM
I think the best thing to do would be to make it a three way stop, or put in a traffic light. I know the area doesn't see a ton of traffic so a three way stop would probably be the best thing to do.
The way the bridge and the intersection are positioned, there's very little space to make a stop sign visible, and it would more than likely get a blinker light anyway.
My suspicion is that ICRC is growing weary of dealing with the public sentiment about the bridge and figure a stop light will shut people up, or at least shift blame back to the drivers causing the wrecks.
I was down in that area the other day and actually happened to be on M-99 so I turned onto Columbia Road because I remembered about the intersection with Waverly. Well I went east on Columbia, crossed the Grand River and came upon the southern leg of Waverly which is currently closed south to Curtice Road. I'm assuming that maybe it's closed because of this. I looked on Google Maps and they confirmed that it's closed and said it'll be closed until late April. Putting a blinker light there would probably help with putting a three way stop sign in and then putting stop ahead signs on all sides would help as well.
Ingham County Road Commission is already on the record stating they're installing a full traffic signal at the intersection.
http://rc.ingham.org/RoadClosures.aspx
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 09, 2019, 01:36:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2019, 11:20:08 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 08, 2018, 01:40:08 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:20:22 PM
I think the best thing to do would be to make it a three way stop, or put in a traffic light. I know the area doesn't see a ton of traffic so a three way stop would probably be the best thing to do.
The way the bridge and the intersection are positioned, there's very little space to make a stop sign visible, and it would more than likely get a blinker light anyway.
My suspicion is that ICRC is growing weary of dealing with the public sentiment about the bridge and figure a stop light will shut people up, or at least shift blame back to the drivers causing the wrecks.
I was down in that area the other day and actually happened to be on M-99 so I turned onto Columbia Road because I remembered about the intersection with Waverly. Well I went east on Columbia, crossed the Grand River and came upon the southern leg of Waverly which is currently closed south to Curtice Road. I'm assuming that maybe it's closed because of this. I looked on Google Maps and they confirmed that it's closed and said it'll be closed until late April. Putting a blinker light there would probably help with putting a three way stop sign in and then putting stop ahead signs on all sides would help as well.
Ingham County Road Commission is already on the record stating they're installing a full traffic signal at the intersection.
http://rc.ingham.org/RoadClosures.aspx
That's good. The other (northern) leg of Waverly is further away from the bridge so there isn't much of a problem there. That other intersection is in Eaton County though so Ingham wouldn't have anything to do with that intersection.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 09, 2019, 10:30:52 AM
That's good. The other (northern) leg of Waverly is further away from the bridge so there isn't much of a problem there. That other intersection is in Eaton County though so Ingham wouldn't have anything to do with that intersection.
This is true, but Waverly Rd north of Columbia is maintained by Ingham County, and it also maintains the section of Columbia Rd east of the N. Waverly Rd intersection (including the Grand River bridge). N. Waverly Rd has signage and pavement consistent with other Ingham County roads.
Eaton County maintains Waverly Rd south of Columbia, a fact that becomes obvious when you notice the differences in pavement condition and signage. S. Waverly Rd pavement and signage are consistent with other Eaton County roads. S. Waverly Rd follows the terrain more closely, with more dips and humps - sections of it are difficult to travel at the (unposted) 55 mph speed limit. This is consistent with other Eaton County roads.
It's not intuitive - Waverly Rd curves into the adjacent county at each side of the bridge. But Ingham County has the larger tax base, and it has a total of four Grand River crossings along its section of Waverly Rd (counting the Columbia Rd bridge) to maintain to Eaton County's one. My suspicion is that, way back in the day, the decision about who maintained what section of Waverly Rd came down to who had the bigger road budget.
Oddly enough, MDOT maintains about a mile of Waverly Rd near Eaton Rapids as part of M-188, which connects Eaton Rapids to the VFW National Home for Children.
A blast from the past, a video about highway safety from 1938:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5C-14PPPxw
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 09, 2019, 07:09:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 09, 2019, 10:30:52 AM
That's good. The other (northern) leg of Waverly is further away from the bridge so there isn't much of a problem there. That other intersection is in Eaton County though so Ingham wouldn't have anything to do with that intersection.
This is true, but Waverly Rd north of Columbia is maintained by Ingham County, and it also maintains the section of Columbia Rd east of the N. Waverly Rd intersection (including the Grand River bridge). N. Waverly Rd has signage and pavement consistent with other Ingham County roads.
Eaton County maintains Waverly Rd south of Columbia, a fact that becomes obvious when you notice the differences in pavement condition and signage. S. Waverly Rd pavement and signage are consistent with other Eaton County roads. S. Waverly Rd follows the terrain more closely, with more dips and humps - sections of it are difficult to travel at the (unposted) 55 mph speed limit. This is consistent with other Eaton County roads.
It's not intuitive - Waverly Rd curves into the adjacent county at each side of the bridge. But Ingham County has the larger tax base, and it has a total of four Grand River crossings along its section of Waverly Rd (counting the Columbia Rd bridge) to maintain to Eaton County's one. My suspicion is that, way back in the day, the decision about who maintained what section of Waverly Rd came down to who had the bigger road budget.
Oddly enough, MDOT maintains about a mile of Waverly Rd near Eaton Rapids as part of M-188, which connects Eaton Rapids to the VFW National Home for Children.
Waverly goes out of it's grid a tad bit to avoid the Grand River. Columbia switches from Columbia Road in Ingham County to Columbia Highway in Eaton County. There are some Michigan counties that call any type of road a Highway like this. I never did quite understand the need to call every single road a Highway though like Eaton County does, Lenawee County does this too.
Waverly ends at a dead end right at the tri-point of the Ingham, Eaton and Jackson County lines so the more south you go the least important Waverly becomes too. I knew about M-188 because I went to find the end sign on that route one time and made my clinch of that highway at that time. There really don't seem to be too many state highways that connect to locations rather than another highway or a street. M-247 just ends and the road keeps going too. That's the highway that goes to the Bay City State Park and if you look at M-247 Google Maps for some reason has it signed north of Beaver Road on a dead end street which is not where it goes it turns to the right to head into the State Park the M-247 ends sign is right at the campground and park headquarters.
MDOT apparently plans in 2023 to remove the US-12/M-51 bridges and interchange near Niles and replace them with an at-grade intersection with traffic signals and Michigan Left turns. Some other repaving and reconstruction in the area is planned at the same time.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151--488768--,00.html
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 03, 2019, 12:07:52 PM
MDOT apparently plans in 2023 to remove the US-12/M-51 bridges and interchange near Niles and replace them with an at-grade intersection with traffic signals and Michigan Left turns. Some other repaving and reconstruction in the area is planned at the same time.
Considering that US-31 has been gone from the route for over 30 years, traffic on M-51/11th St is certainly not high enough to justify grade-separation. The railroad that was formerly west of the interchange is also gone. It's disappointing to see the grade-separation go away and another stoplight added to US-12, but it's unlikely that traffic would become noticeably worse with the change. It may also improve safety for the existing stoplight at 3rd St, as people would be less likely to confuse US-12 for a freeway.
This also makes clear that the M-60/US-12 interchange east of here is destined to go away in the near future.
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 03, 2019, 09:20:02 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 03, 2019, 12:07:52 PM
MDOT apparently plans in 2023 to remove the US-12/M-51 bridges and interchange near Niles and replace them with an at-grade intersection with traffic signals and Michigan Left turns. Some other repaving and reconstruction in the area is planned at the same time.
Considering that US-31 has been gone from the route for over 30 years, traffic on M-51/11th St is certainly not high enough to justify grade-separation. The railroad that was formerly west of the interchange is also gone. It's disappointing to see the grade-separation go away and another stoplight added to US-12, but it's unlikely that traffic would become noticeably worse with the change. It may also improve safety for the existing stoplight at 3rd St, as people would be less likely to confuse US-12 for a freeway.
This also makes clear that the M-60/US-12 interchange east of here is destined to go away in the near future.
I was thinking that they'd keep the M-60/US-12 interchange the same. It makes more sense to remove the one at M-51/US-12 since that is kind of a tight setup there anyway and there are residential areas right next to it. Besides the bridge that US-12 uses to cross over M-51 is old and probably needing replacement anyway by now. The guardrails tells it's age.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 04, 2019, 05:28:27 PM
I was thinking that they'd keep the M-60/US-12 interchange the same. It makes more sense to remove the one at M-51/US-12 since that is kind of a tight setup there anyway and there are residential areas right next to it. Besides the bridge that US-12 uses to cross over M-51 is old and probably needing replacement anyway by now. The guardrails tells it's age.
US-12 @ M-51 is by far the more heavily-trafficked interchange, with a total of about 35,000 vpd using it v.s. about 24,000 vpd for M-60/US-12. It's also not significantly older (built in 1956 v.s. 1960 for US-12/M-60). If traffic didn't justify rebuilding the US-12/M-51 interchange, it certainly doesn't for US-12/M-60.
Someone posted on another forum some drawings of the DDI interchanges who'll replace the current interchanges on I-75 at 14 Mile Road and Big Beaver(16 Mile) Road.
https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?23875-I-75-Mega-Project-to-Include-Diverging-Diamond-Interchanges-at-14-Mile-Big-Beaver
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on March 11, 2019, 02:12:11 PM
Someone posted on another forum some drawings of the DDI interchanges who'll replace the current interchanges on I-75 at 14 Mile Road and Big Beaver(16 Mile) Road.
https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?23875-I-75-Mega-Project-to-Include-Diverging-Diamond-Interchanges-at-14-Mile-Big-Beaver
Wow! I did not know the I-75 reconstruction project included removing the existing interchanges and replacing them with DDIs; this is the first I've read of it. I don't even see it mentioned in any project summary descriptions on the MDOT website.
I wonder how much these DDIs will really improve traffic flow, given that both 14 Mile and Big Beaver have a mess of other traffic signals very close to their I-75 interchanges.
Having a left lane off ramp isn't the worst of things. However the interchange at Square Lake is much improved now. A left lane on ramp is dangerous and you encounter that at exit 93 Dixie Hwy as well in both directions. I can't wait to see how they plan on getting all this done by 2020.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 12, 2019, 07:55:56 AM
Wow! I did not know the I-75 reconstruction project included removing the existing interchanges and replacing them with DDIs; this is the first I've read of it. I don't even see it mentioned in any project summary descriptions on the MDOT website.
Here's the design MDOT chose for the I-75/Big Beaver interchange:
(https://s3-prod.crainsdetroit.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_792/public/Big%20Beaver%20DDI-main_i.jpg)
Here's the design i wish they had selected. Don't diverge Big Beaver through traffic if they aren't entering onto the freeway. This design would require roughly the same bridge deck length as the proposed design but the I-75 bridge deck width would need to be wider to accommodate the deceleration lanes for the exiting loop ramps. But for 12 foot wider bridge decks, you would achieve much better coordination/lower delays along Big Beaver Road. And there's enough ROW for this design (considering the current interchange is a full cloverleaf).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_dKx6c_gNI
Here's the current signal progression you can achieve along Big Beaver. Drivers cruise for multiple miles in either direction along Big Beaver without hitting a red light. The Diverging Diamond is going to ruin good signal progression along Big Beaver between Crooks and Livernois and jam up traffic with the closely spaced traffic signals just east and west of the interchange. MDOT is getting DDI happy just like the rest of the states. Flavor of the month interchange 10 years ago was the SPUI... today it's the DDI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB2H4bGp4Jc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2BOYF0JQFE
Quote from: tradephoric on March 15, 2019, 02:17:14 PM
Here's the design MDOT chose for the I-75/Big Beaver interchange:
(https://s3-prod.crainsdetroit.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_792/public/Big%20Beaver%20DDI-main_i.jpg)
Here's the design i wish they had selected. Don't diverge Big Beaver through traffic if they aren't entering onto the freeway. This design would require roughly the same bridge deck length as the proposed design but the I-75 bridge deck width would need to be wider to accommodate the deceleration lanes for the exiting loop ramps. But for 12 foot wider bridge decks, you would achieve much better coordination/lower delays along Big Beaver Road. And there's enough ROW for this design (considering the current interchange is a full cloverleaf).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_dKx6c_gNI
Here's the current signal progression you can achieve along Big Beaver. Drivers cruise for multiple miles in either direction along Big Beaver without hitting a red light. The Diverging Diamond is going to ruin good signal progression along Big Beaver between Crooks and Livernois and jam up traffic with the closely spaced traffic signals just east and west of the interchange. MDOT is getting DDI happy just like the rest of the states. Flavor of the month interchange 10 years ago was the SPUI... today it's the DDI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB2H4bGp4Jc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2BOYF0JQFE
Your design takes up more land area than the current layout does.
That interchange has always sucked because it's on a curve on I-75
Here's another massive Diverging Diamond that was built in Florida. It takes the guy 3 minutes to drive about 1/2 mile (that's with the guy pausing the video twice while stuck at red lights). While there is a lane of traffic closed off at the beginning of the video, by the time the driver reaches the DDI traffic signals it appears all lanes of traffic are open.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFXaArpY3hM
Quote from: renegade on March 16, 2019, 01:05:24 PM
Your design takes up more land area than the current layout does.
Your claim is invalid considering my design is nothing more than a conceptual SYNCHRO model. It's essentially a partial cloverleaf while the existing layout is a full cloverleaf. In general, a partial cloverleaf is capable of taking up less ROW than a full cloverleaf. It's true that the width of Big Beaver would be wider with my design compared to the current configuration, but it would be a similar width to the DDI that is being proposed (and a wide arterial under the bridge deck doesn't take up any more ROW than the current configuration, seeing that the existing loop ramps are already taking up that ROW to begin with).
Quote from: tradephoric on March 15, 2019, 02:17:14 PM
Here's the design MDOT chose for the I-75/Big Beaver interchange:
(https://s3-prod.crainsdetroit.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_792/public/Big%20Beaver%20DDI-main_i.jpg)
Here's the design i wish they had selected. Don't diverge Big Beaver through traffic if they aren't entering onto the freeway. This design would require roughly the same bridge deck length as the proposed design but the I-75 bridge deck width would need to be wider to accommodate the deceleration lanes for the exiting loop ramps. But for 12 foot wider bridge decks, you would achieve much better coordination/lower delays along Big Beaver Road. And there's enough ROW for this design (considering the current interchange is a full cloverleaf).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_dKx6c_gNI
The current cloverleaf interchange has two signals in each direction on Big Beaver Road. The DDI will have two signals in each direction. Your design would have two signals in each direction, would require more space than the DDI in the northeast and southwest quadrants (MDOT might want to sell current ROW that would become excess with the DDI), and probably would require additional (unavailable) ROW east and west of the interchange to move the carriageways apart for the necessary widened median. I'm not sure I'm sold on the DDI over the current configuration, but I don't see where your design is an improvement.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 16, 2019, 03:30:34 PM
That interchange has always sucked because it's on a curve on I-75
I remember when the I-75 bridges were widened to construct the C/D carriageways -- now those carriageways are being removed.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 16, 2019, 06:15:43 PM
The current cloverleaf interchange has two signals in each direction on Big Beaver Road. The DDI will have two signals in each direction. Your design would have two signals in each direction, would require more space than the DDI in the northeast and southwest quadrants (MDOT might want to sell current ROW that would become excess with the DDI), and probably would require additional (unavailable) ROW east and west of the interchange to move the carriageways apart for the necessary widened median. I'm not sure I'm sold on the DDI over the current configuration, but I don't see where your design is an improvement.
A few points:
1. My design would have traffic signals that only stop one direction of travel along Big Beaver while the DDI would have traffic signals that stop both directions. Much easier to coordinate traffic signals that only stop one direction of travel. Good signal progression along a major 6-lane boulevard (ie. my design) equates to lower stops and delays for drivers. Poor signal progression along a major 6-lane boulevard (ie. DDI design) equates to increased stops and delays for drivers.
2. If you look at the proposed DDI design you really aren't gaining much ROW in the SW quadrant. I'd be surprised if MDOT is selling any ROW on the SW quadrant. So compared to my design, the DDI would really only be gaining ROW on the NE quadrant. The greater Toronto area has a population of nearly 6 million people, yet nearly every interchange in the city is a parclo. If a major metropolis of 6 million people can manage with Parclo designs that take up a little bit more ROW, i'm pretty sure a Parclo on Big Beaver in Troy, Michigan would be adequate.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 16, 2019, 06:15:43 PM
...and probably would require additional (unavailable) ROW east and west of the interchange to move the carriageways apart for the necessary widened median.
I disagree that my design would require additional ROW along Big Beaver east and west of the interchange. Here's a more accurate interpretation of the design. Instead of diverging all traffic (like the DDI) just diverge the traffic that is actually going to be entering the freeway. Makes too much sense maybe.
Quote from: renegade on March 16, 2019, 01:05:24 PM
Your design takes up more land area than the current layout does.
I also disagree with you. My design would take up less land area than the current interchange configuration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v1QPaYISFA
Here's a rendering of how the contraflow lefts might look from ground level. Not exactly the same interchange design but you get the idea.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1521/24210703834_1cc4b21c03_b.jpg)
The closure of I-475 in Flint has begun. As far as I know it's closed from the northern terminus to it looks like at least the Carpenter Road exit. This closure at least for now looks like it only consists of the SB lanes.
Quote from: tradephoric on March 18, 2019, 10:21:38 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 16, 2019, 06:15:43 PM
...and probably would require additional (unavailable) ROW east and west of the interchange to move the carriageways apart for the necessary widened median.
I disagree that my design would require additional ROW along Big Beaver east and west of the interchange. Here's a more accurate interpretation of the design. Instead of diverging all traffic (like the DDI) just diverge the traffic that is actually going to be entering the freeway. Makes too much sense maybe.
Quote from: renegade on March 16, 2019, 01:05:24 PM
Your design takes up more land area than the current layout does.
I also disagree with you. My design would take up less land area than the current interchange configuration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v1QPaYISFA
Here's a rendering of how the contraflow lefts might look from ground level. Not exactly the same interchange design but you get the idea.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1521/24210703834_1cc4b21c03_b.jpg)
Wouldn't that be somewhat similar to the M-59 and US-23 interchange?
^You can kind of look at contraflow left turns at an interchange as a spread out SPUI, but really i feel the interchanges are quite different. If you want to see a combination between a Parclo and a SPUI, take a look at a design like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vef4O6Vs_A
When i drive 8 Mile Road i can usually cruise from Grand River to Woodward without getting stopped at a red light. Then like clockwork i get stopped at John R just east of Woodward. Here's a video of my typical drive down 8 Mile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oea5WLUmGjs
This is a time-distance diagram of how 8 Mile is timed from Livernois to Dequindre. The corridor is capable of great dual progression along this stretch but MDOT has it messed up. You get stopped in both directions of travel when you drive this stretch of 8 Mile. The coordination of 8 Mile has been the same for years, and it's really unnecessary for drivers to consistently get stopped at John R and Dequindre.
(https://i.imgur.com/SdVnG3K.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/aD7tYx4.png)
I cruised on 8 Mile the other day. I got on it just east of Van Dyke (where Conner ends at Bramford) and stayed on it until I-75 (about 4 miles). I was able to hit every light as a green light and made it to I-75 in just over 4 minutes.
US-23 and M-59 is setup like that. It's more of a rural area but the interchange handles quite a bit of traffic.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2019, 03:31:48 PM
I cruised on 8 Mile the other day. I got on it just east of Van Dyke (where Conner ends at Bramford) and stayed on it until I-75 (about 4 miles). I was able to hit every light as a green light and made it to I-75 in just over 4 minutes.
That's a good run! But I bet if you had traveled a little farther west you would have gotten slowed down at John R. That's the light that always seems a little screwy. I'd understand if you get good signal progression in one direction (at the expense of the other direction), but it seems no matter what direction you are traveling down 8 Mile there's a good chance you get stuck at John R.
Someone should erect and maintain a high scoreboard.
A part of old US-10 in Midland was permanently closed last year. Dow has property on both sides of Saginaw Road and they have combined there plant and successfully got approval from the Midland City Council to close the stretch for good and combine there plant into one property. Saginaw Road is now closed between Salzburg Road and Mark Putnam Road. Therefore you are no longer able to clinch old US-10.
Anyone who has driven Telegraph & Square Lake during rush hour knows how backed up the intersection can get. The heavy WB Square Lake traffic who uses the Michigan Left turnaround on Telegraph to continue SB jams up between the main signal and the turnaround, especially in the morning. Here is a design that would allow direct lefts for WB Square Lake traffic that wish to continue SB on Telegraph.
https://youtu.be/cAGfr8dqCHU
(https://i.imgur.com/GAtMYU3.jpg)
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.60292,-83.28988,325m/data=!3m1!1e3
OK this is the last model i'll post of this, but I think this could work awesome if MDOT ever reconfigured this intersection like this.
https://youtu.be/wUrD4S2u8rQ
MDOT's 2019 Truck Operator Map indicates changes in Kalamazoo as the city will take control of several trunkline routes within the city limits:
- The non-freeway portion of Business US-131 is turned back leaving it a spur from the north only
- Unsigned M-331 is completely turned back
- M-43 joins US-131 and M-89 and by-passes the city to the north - a new M-343 is designated along Gull Rd from the M-43/M-89 east junction to the city limit while West Main Street is unsigned trunkline from US-131 to the city limit
- Business I-94 is truncated at M-96 leaving it as a spur - West Stadium Drive from US-131 to the city limits will be unsigned trunkline as will a small stub on the east end from M-96 to the city limits
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/2017_Truck_Operator_Map_WEB_599666_7.pdf
As part of the M-5 modernization project, MDOT is planning on rebuilding the M-5 and 12 Mile interchange. Known as the "folded interchange" this innovative design will increase the capacity of the interchange and reduce driver delays. The underutilized median along 12 Mile will be used to include on-ramp lanes, with the opposing on-ramp lanes criss-crossing each other much like you see at a diverging diamond. But the "folded interchange" has many advantages over the Diverging Diamond including not having to divert through lanes of traffic along the arterial that don't plan on entering the freeway. This is why MDOT has decided to build the folded interchange at this location. Quite simply, it's a superior interchange design compared to the Diverging Diamond.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vimICuJlQhI
(https://i.imgur.com/sdj10zl.jpg)
(existing underpass that will fit the additional on-ramp lanes)
Quote from: tradephoric on April 23, 2019, 02:05:14 PM
As part of the M-5 modernization project, MDOT is planning on rebuilding the M-5 and 12 Mile interchange. Known as the "folded interchange" this innovative design will increase the capacity of the interchange and reduce driver delays. The underutilized median along 12 Mile will be used to include on-ramp lanes, with the opposing on-ramp lanes criss-crossing each other much like you see at a diverging diamond. But the "folded interchange" has many advantages over the Diverging Diamond including not having to divert through lanes of traffic along the arterial that don't plan on entering the freeway. This is why MDOT has decided to build the folded interchange at this location. Quite simply, it's a superior interchange design compared to the Diverging Diamond.
What is your source? The M-5 project involves pavement repair and resurfacing, work on the Grand River Avenue and Drake Road bridges, and sign replacement. None of the MDOT information releases says anything about redesign/reconstruction of this interchange. The plans for replacement signs correspond to the existing interchange, and in fact the new BGS for the loop ramp from westbound 12 Mile Road to southbound M-5 (which would be eliminated in your folded diamond) just went up in the past week. As for capacity improvement, this interchange is hardly in need of it.
This video you linked says "M 5 interchange," but it's a completely different M 5.
Quote from: hockeyjohn on April 22, 2019, 09:40:00 AM
MDOT's 2019 Truck Operator Map indicates changes in Kalamazoo as the city will take control of several trunkline routes within the city limits:
- The non-freeway portion of Business US-131 is turned back leaving it a spur from the north only
- Unsigned M-331 is completely turned back
- M-43 joins US-131 and M-89 and by-passes the city to the north - a new M-343 is designated along Gull Rd from the M-43/M-89 east junction to the city limit while West Main Street is unsigned trunkline from US-131 to the city limit
- Business I-94 is truncated at M-96 leaving it as a spur - West Stadium Drive from US-131 to the city limits will be unsigned trunkline as will a small stub on the east end from M-96 to the city limits
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/2017_Truck_Operator_Map_WEB_599666_7.pdf
The west segment of M-43 between US-31 and US-131 should have a completely separate number IMHO
Quote from: ftballfan on April 24, 2019, 09:53:08 PM
Quote from: hockeyjohn on April 22, 2019, 09:40:00 AM
MDOT's 2019 Truck Operator Map indicates changes in Kalamazoo as the city will take control of several trunkline routes within the city limits:
- The non-freeway portion of Business US-131 is turned back leaving it a spur from the north only
- Unsigned M-331 is completely turned back
- M-43 joins US-131 and M-89 and by-passes the city to the north - a new M-343 is designated along Gull Rd from the M-43/M-89 east junction to the city limit while West Main Street is unsigned trunkline from US-131 to the city limit
- Business I-94 is truncated at M-96 leaving it as a spur - West Stadium Drive from US-131 to the city limits will be unsigned trunkline as will a small stub on the east end from M-96 to the city limits
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/2017_Truck_Operator_Map_WEB_599666_7.pdf
The west segment of M-43 between US-31 and US-131 should have a completely separate number IMHO
Agreed. I'd have renumbered that section as a new M-41 from South Haven to the west side of Kalamazoo and then left the remainder of M-43 from Kalamazoo through the Lansing area alone.
I doubt there will ever be an M-41 unless US 41 is decomissioned in Michigan. Also, wouldn't such suggestions be better suited for Fictional Highways?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 25, 2019, 03:55:42 PM
I doubt there will ever be an M-41 unless US 41 is decomissioned in Michigan. Also, wouldn't such suggestions be better suited for Fictional Highways?
US-41 is in the Upper Peninsula, the location where they are talking about is in the Lower Peninsula several hundred miles away from Michigan's part of US-41. Michigan doesn't limit the use of one number to each set of highways. Every Interstate in Michigan has a same numbered state highway somewhere else in the state.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on April 25, 2019, 01:11:59 AM
Quote from: ftballfan on April 24, 2019, 09:53:08 PM
Quote from: hockeyjohn on April 22, 2019, 09:40:00 AM
MDOT's 2019 Truck Operator Map indicates changes in Kalamazoo as the city will take control of several trunkline routes within the city limits:
- The non-freeway portion of Business US-131 is turned back leaving it a spur from the north only
- Unsigned M-331 is completely turned back
- M-43 joins US-131 and M-89 and by-passes the city to the north - a new M-343 is designated along Gull Rd from the M-43/M-89 east junction to the city limit while West Main Street is unsigned trunkline from US-131 to the city limit
- Business I-94 is truncated at M-96 leaving it as a spur - West Stadium Drive from US-131 to the city limits will be unsigned trunkline as will a small stub on the east end from M-96 to the city limits
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/2017_Truck_Operator_Map_WEB_599666_7.pdf
The west segment of M-43 between US-31 and US-131 should have a completely separate number IMHO
Agreed. I'd have renumbered that section as a new M-41 from South Haven to the west side of Kalamazoo and then left the remainder of M-43 from Kalamazoo through the Lansing area alone.
Kalamazoo is trying its hardest to be in Indiana based on them receiving all (non-freeway) state highway mileage within its city limits. Even before this, I still felt M-43 should be two (or even three) separate routes. Michigan has plenty of #'s below 100 available (16, 56, 70, 74, 76, 87, 92, 98) without having to duplicate existing US Highway numbers (12, 23, 31, 41).
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 25, 2019, 05:09:00 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 25, 2019, 03:55:42 PM
I doubt there will ever be an M-41 unless US 41 is decomissioned in Michigan. Also, wouldn't such suggestions be better suited for Fictional Highways?
US-41 is in the Upper Peninsula, the location where they are talking about is in the Lower Peninsula several hundred miles away from Michigan's part of US-41. Michigan doesn't limit the use of one number to each set of highways. Every Interstate in Michigan has a same numbered state highway somewhere else in the state.
And in some cases, the US highways have a state number as well (Old M-2 (some AAA maps had a M-2 on what would become I-96 in the 70s), M-8, M-10, M-24, M-25 (Old US-25), M-27 (Old US-27), M-112 (Old US-112), Old M-131)
Quote from: cwf1701 on April 27, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 25, 2019, 05:09:00 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 25, 2019, 03:55:42 PM
I doubt there will ever be an M-41 unless US 41 is decomissioned in Michigan. Also, wouldn't such suggestions be better suited for Fictional Highways?
US-41 is in the Upper Peninsula, the location where they are talking about is in the Lower Peninsula several hundred miles away from Michigan's part of US-41. Michigan doesn't limit the use of one number to each set of highways. Every Interstate in Michigan has a same numbered state highway somewhere else in the state.
And in some cases, the US highways have a state number as well (Old M-2 (some AAA maps had a M-2 on what would become I-96 in the 70s), M-8, M-10, M-24, M-25 (Old US-25), M-27 (Old US-27), M-112 (Old US-112), Old M-131)
That's true too. My whole point is that if they renumbered a highway to M-41 in the Kalamazoo area no one is going to confuse it with US-41 in the U.P.
The Maple Road overpass on I-75 between I-69 and the US-23 split was hit by a truck yesterday again. That bridge has been struck a few times over the past few years. The height of the bridge is 14 feet, 2 inches so I don't think the height should really be an issue here. I-75 was closed yesterday after the incident and traffic was backed up onto I-69 because of it and at the same time another accident involving two motorcycles happened on WB I-69 at I-75 causing another backup in the same area.
There was a piece of construction equipment on a truck or a trailer and they were over height. They hit the bridge and the cab of that construction equipment just actually came right off. The legal height is 13 feet, 6 inches. Anything over that you are required to have a special permit.
Btw, the Maple Road overpass will be getting replaced next year.
Quote from: hockeyjohn on April 22, 2019, 09:40:00 AM
MDOT's 2019 Truck Operator Map indicates changes in Kalamazoo as the city will take control of several trunkline routes within the city limits:
- The non-freeway portion of Business US-131 is turned back leaving it a spur from the north only
- Unsigned M-331 is completely turned back
- M-43 joins US-131 and M-89 and by-passes the city to the north - a new M-343 is designated along Gull Rd from the M-43/M-89 east junction to the city limit while West Main Street is unsigned trunkline from US-131 to the city limit
- Business I-94 is truncated at M-96 leaving it as a spur - West Stadium Drive from US-131 to the city limits will be unsigned trunkline as will a small stub on the east end from M-96 to the city limits
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/2017_Truck_Operator_Map_WEB_599666_7.pdf
News article at https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/2019/01/agreement-would-turn-over-mdot-streets-to-city-of-kalamazoo.html.
And of course we lose the wrong-way concurrency of M-43 and M-89 on the north side of Richland, but gain a same-way concurrency northwest of there.
When the signs are taken down, we'll have three numbered spur routes to the Kalamazoo downtown area limit: Business US-131 from the north, Business I-94 from the east, and new M-343 from the northeast. I like that MDOT will make Main Street and Stadium Drive unnumbered trunklines instead of going Indiana-like and creating discontinuous routes on either side of the city. But seems to me that making spurs from former through routes offers nothing but confusion for motorists (and the cynic in me wonders if the new termini will even be signposted or trailblazed, or will motorists just be dumped into downtown and left to find their own way) -- I think MDOT should have made these unnumbered routes as well, completely eliminating the posted business routes.
Quote from: ftballfan on April 24, 2019, 09:53:08 PM
The west segment of M-43 between US-31 and US-131 should have a completely separate number IMHO
I agree, but it is what it is. Changing the existing number of the west segment just to satisfy the technicalities of a corridor definition would confuse the bejeebers out of the general motoring public, and I think it's a good move that MDOT isn't doing it. And while the new routing of M-43 is hardly direct (eastbound traffic will go north concurrent with US-131, southeast concurrent with M-89, then north again on existing M-43; vice versa for westbound), it's again MDOT doing what it can to keep the route contiguous and not pulling an Indiana-type move in having discontinuous segments.
MDOT confirmed to me in an e-mail today that it is is no longer producing the annual Paving The Way state trunkline construction map. Says the e-mail, "The most accessible and reliable information to help determine what construction projects you may encounter on state trunklines is on MI Drive (www.michigan.gov/drive). If you activate the construction layer (the cone icon), you can click on any project on the map for details about individual projects."
The map has been available only as a PDF download the past few years (not printed and available at rest areas and welcome centers) for the past few years, but it's no longer being compiled at all.
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/heraldpalladium.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/41/24199e44-9594-52af-ab5b-84239653ad6f/5ce3663d1e105.image.jpg)
I hope that this is NOT what MDOT has decided for an interchange design for the future interchange with I-94 and U.S. 31 where the current I-94 BL interchange (exit 33) is in St. Joseph.
Article:
https://www.heraldpalladium.com/news/local/open-house-on-u-s-extension-scheduled/article_9d7deb49-bb80-5836-ab20-6fde4495ccb0.html
EDIT: Fixed the image link.
^^ If this is the design that will be constructed, it actually is an improvement :rolleyes: over the Selected Alternative specified in the FHWA's Record of Decision issued in August 2004. No changes to the US-31 movements, and it's a damn shame that MDOT won't spend (or can't scrape up) the money to build a flyover ramp for southbound US-31 traffic, but the original Selected Alternative was for a full eight-ramp cloverleaf. That would have resulted in nasty and dangerous weave/merge setups, especially in the southern half of the interchange (between the merge from southbound US-31 and exit from eastbound BL I-94 to eastbound I-94).
(https://i.imgur.com/mDHEINa.jpg)
US 31 should have been completed years ago. Also, US 31's interchange with Interstate 94 (and Business 94) should be a full freeway-to-freeway interchange.
I-94 is falling apart and MDOT has done absolutely nothing about it. The proposal for I-94 is almost 20 years old. The interchange at the Lodge Freeway is as obsolete as an eight track record. It's just ridiculous that MDOT balks on everything they do and we're forced to drive on these garbage roads paying the highest car insurance rates in the country.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on May 22, 2019, 12:57:42 AM
I hope that this is NOT what MDOT has decided for an interchange design for the future interchange with I-94 and U.S. 31 where the current I-94 BL interchange (exit 33) is in St. Joseph.
It looks like the through movements of US-31 are free-flowing, albeit slowed considerably on the SBD side by the 270 degree curve. The signals are all for the I-94 BL movements, so that's fine. It's certainly a big improvement over the current arrangement, and there's not going to be enough traffic that this will become a safety concern.
MDOT is replacing most of the signage along M-6 this year. At this moment, many of the new metal sign posts are installed, though I haven't seen any new wooden posts installed yet, at least where I looked.
MDOT just got done with M-58 in Saginaw. Which included a new turn signal at Center Road and is now completely black topped from the Saginaw city limits to M-47.
Sign replacement along the M-5 freeway in Farmington and Farmington Hills is also being done (along with resurfacing and work on the Grand River Avenue and Drake Road bridges). The sign plans are surprisingly sloppy: A few fairly new signs that are indicated to be replaced again, several older signs missed that are not being replaced, questionable decisions on placement and control city changes, and at least one error (about which I emailed MDOT and we will see if it gets fixed before the sign is fabricated and installed).
Quote from: codeGR on June 15, 2019, 04:43:28 PM
MDOT is replacing most of the signage along M-6 this year. At this moment, many of the new metal sign posts are installed, though I haven't seen any new wooden posts installed yet, at least where I looked.
M-6 is one of the few stretches of freeway in MI that never had Clearview put on it (it opened just before MI switched to Clearview)
I saw one of the new signs being installed today on M6 and, thankfully, it is Clearview.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on May 22, 2019, 12:57:42 AM
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/heraldpalladium.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/41/24199e44-9594-52af-ab5b-84239653ad6f/5ce3663d1e105.image.jpg)
I hope that this is NOT what MDOT has decided for an interchange design for the future interchange with I-94 and U.S. 31 where the current I-94 BL interchange (exit 33) is in St. Joseph.
Article:
https://www.heraldpalladium.com/news/local/open-house-on-u-s-extension-scheduled/article_9d7deb49-bb80-5836-ab20-6fde4495ccb0.html
EDIT: Fixed the image link.
BTW what is with the interchange on US-31 to the west of this planned interchange on Crystal Avenue? From the air it looks like a standard diamond interchange, but it's not grade separated. I guess this is really a jughandle?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1190914,-86.4176723,390m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: tradephoric on July 09, 2019, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on May 22, 2019, 12:57:42 AM
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/heraldpalladium.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/41/24199e44-9594-52af-ab5b-84239653ad6f/5ce3663d1e105.image.jpg)
I hope that this is NOT what MDOT has decided for an interchange design for the future interchange with I-94 and U.S. 31 where the current I-94 BL interchange (exit 33) is in St. Joseph.
Article:
https://www.heraldpalladium.com/news/local/open-house-on-u-s-extension-scheduled/article_9d7deb49-bb80-5836-ab20-6fde4495ccb0.html
EDIT: Fixed the image link.
BTW what is with the interchange on US-31 to the west of this planned interchange on Crystal Avenue? From the air it looks like a standard diamond interchange, but it's not grade separated. I guess this is really a jughandle?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1190914,-86.4176723,390m/data=!3m1!1e3
Yes, Streetview proved it. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1190385,-86.417477,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbrMGP77nKYb8B9klImXAnw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Quote from: tradephoric on July 09, 2019, 07:41:52 AM
BTW what is with the interchange on US-31 to the west of this planned interchange on Crystal Avenue? From the air it looks like a standard diamond interchange, but it's not grade separated. I guess this is really a jughandle?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1190914,-86.4176723,390m/data=!3m1!1e3
I can only assume MDOT had future plans to make it a grade-separated interchange, but later decided against it. With the level of traffic it currently gets, it could be converted to a traditional at-grade intersection, and probably doesn't even need stoplights.
Benton Harbor has roughly half the population now that it did in the 1960s, when this was built.
As part of the US-31 relocation project, MDOT is proposing to "right size" I-94 BL from a divided highway to an undivided highway, remove the Euclid Ave bridge over I-94 BL and replace with at-grade intersection, as well as reconfigure the Crystal Ave intersection into a possible roundabout or more traditional at-grade intersection.
(https://i.imgur.com/oYoRVXU.jpg)
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 10, 2019, 10:23:36 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on July 09, 2019, 07:41:52 AM
BTW what is with the interchange on US-31 to the west of this planned interchange on Crystal Avenue? From the air it looks like a standard diamond interchange, but it's not grade separated. I guess this is really a jughandle?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1190914,-86.4176723,390m/data=!3m1!1e3
I can only assume MDOT had future plans to make it a grade-separated interchange, but later decided against it. With the level of traffic it currently gets, it could be converted to a traditional at-grade intersection, and probably doesn't even need stoplights.
Benton Harbor has roughly half the population now that it did in the 1960s, when this was built.
Seeing as the munis in that area each cover such a small land area, how is the metro area in total (mainly Saint Joseph, Benton Harbor, Saint Joseph Township and Benton Township as though they were all one city) doing?
And yes, I agree with MDOT in this proposed downgrading. I've never liked how they did a lot of these mid-sized city freeway spurs back in the 1950s and 1960s.
Mike
Quote from: codeGR on July 15, 2019, 09:45:41 PM
As part of the US-31 relocation project, MDOT is proposing to "right size" I-94 BL from a divided highway to an undivided highway, remove the Euclid Ave bridge over I-94 BL and replace with at-grade intersection, as well as reconfigure the Crystal Ave intersection into a possible roundabout or more traditional at-grade intersection.
(https://i.imgur.com/oYoRVXU.jpg)
I would had keeped divided but with a narrow median from Crystal Avenue to Euclid Ave and go with the roundabout option along with the addition of a bicycle path along the ROW.
Quote from: mgk920 on July 17, 2019, 12:17:26 AM
Seeing as the munis in that area each cover such a small land area, how is the metro area in total (mainly Saint Joseph, Benton Harbor, Saint Joseph Township and Benton Township as though they were all one city) doing?
The Niles-Benton Harbor MSA (which is basically Berrien County) has a total of 156,813. Based on the latest estimates, the cities of Benton Harbor and St. Joseph combined would be less than 19,000, and the two townships you mention add up to less than 25,000. So that's less than 30% of the county as a whole.
Quote from: mgk920 on July 17, 2019, 12:17:26 AM
And yes, I agree with MDOT in this proposed downgrading. I've never liked how they did a lot of these mid-sized city freeway spurs back in the 1950s and 1960s.
Those were just products of their time, when the prevailing thought was that traffic counts would only ever increase.
Quote from: rawmustard on July 17, 2019, 11:46:25 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 17, 2019, 12:17:26 AM
Seeing as the munis in that area each cover such a small land area, how is the metro area in total (mainly Saint Joseph, Benton Harbor, Saint Joseph Township and Benton Township as though they were all one city) doing?
The Niles-Benton Harbor MSA (which is basically Berrien County) has a total of 156,813. Based on the latest estimates, the cities of Benton Harbor and St. Joseph combined would be less than 19,000, and the two townships you mention add up to less than 25,000. So that's less than 30% of the county as a whole.
Berrien County is roughly the same population now as it was in the 1960s. It had rapidly grown with the fortunes of Whirlpool, Studebaker (in neighboring South Bend), and other manufacturing interests. That has fallen off over time, but tourism and retirees from Chicago have partially counteracted population loss from the loss in manufacturing. A lot of the highways built in the '50s and '60s (US-12/M-60 Niles bypass, US-31, BL I-94) were anticipating continued population growth that never materialized. Had Berrien County continued on the same population growth track, US-31 would've likely been finished decades ago.
Population figures for Berrien County can be misleading, with a large number of Chicagoans owning second homes and spending much of the summer there.
M-231 at Lincoln St near Grand Haven is getting new signals with technology that "extends the yellow signal for a vehicle it detects is not slowing fast enough".
The not-a-traffic-engineer layperson I am scratches my head at that explanation. Why not just extend the red phase for cross traffic until the intersection is clear? If people keep stuffing the intersection during the yellow phase, could they extend that yellow light indefinitely?
I'm sure there's a better explanation or strategy here that isn't encouraging drivers to run yellow lights. But this article doesn't describe that.
Signal at Lincoln, M-231 features new technology
https://www.grandhaventribune.com/Transportation/2019/07/20/Signal-at-Lincoln-and-M-231-features-new-technology (https://www.grandhaventribune.com/Transportation/2019/07/20/Signal-at-Lincoln-and-M-231-features-new-technology)
On a side note, this traffic signal on a 65 mph 2-lane setup seems awfully rare in Michigan. There is one at M-65 and M-55 near Whittemore, and at M-65's terminus at US-23 - though the county road south of US-23 at this intersection has an (unposted) 55 mph limit.
It's also unclear if 65 mph is legal at M-104 near Nunica, though one would be hard pressed to achieve 65 between the off-ramp from I-96 and the light at M-104. Though, at least of the last Google Street View image, it appears no signage is in place saying you can't drive 65mph NBD on M-231 though a green light. https://goo.gl/maps/SKLFZdDZbbQMsAUN6 (https://goo.gl/maps/SKLFZdDZbbQMsAUN6)
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 28, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
M-231 at Lincoln St near Grand Haven is getting new signals with technology that "extends the yellow signal for a vehicle it detects is not slowing fast enough".
The not-a-traffic-engineer layperson I am scratches my head at that explanation. Why not just extend the red phase for cross traffic until the intersection is clear? If people keep stuffing the intersection during the yellow phase, could they extend that yellow light indefinitely?
I don't think so. The article mentions "dilemma zone technology", which refers to the area after which it's safe to stop, but before which it's possible to pass through in time. In other words, any vehicle caught within this "dilemma zone" when the light turns yellow is screwed, as they will either run the red light or come to a stop in the middle of the intersection.
From what I can tell by skimming the article, the technology will extend the yellow light if it detects a vehicle within that zone. As it happens, the sentence you quoted (their words, not yours. I bolded for emphasis) is misleading in that regard, as the extended yellow inherently assumes the vehicle will decide not to stop.
I'm not sure how that's going to work, though, as the dilemma zone can be different for every vehicle. Maybe someone with more experience in the field can weigh in?
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 28, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
It's also unclear if 65 mph is legal at M-104 near Nunica, though one would be hard pressed to achieve 65 between the off-ramp from I-96 and the light at M-104. Though, at least of the last Google Street View image, it appears no signage is in place saying you can't drive 65mph NBD on M-231 though a green light. https://goo.gl/maps/SKLFZdDZbbQMsAUN6 (https://goo.gl/maps/SKLFZdDZbbQMsAUN6)
Looking at the signage, it looks like M-231 terminates at M-104.
Quote from: codeGR on July 29, 2019, 07:44:01 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 28, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
It's also unclear if 65 mph is legal at M-104 near Nunica, though one would be hard pressed to achieve 65 between the off-ramp from I-96 and the light at M-104. Though, at least of the last Google Street View image, it appears no signage is in place saying you can't drive 65mph NBD on M-231 though a green light. https://goo.gl/maps/SKLFZdDZbbQMsAUN6 (https://goo.gl/maps/SKLFZdDZbbQMsAUN6)
On the exit ramp from I-96 to M-231, there are shields for M-231 South and TO MI-104 indicating that M-231 extends up to the exit ramp.
Looking at the signage, it looks like M-231 terminates at M-104.
I did notice that as well. However, the signs on M-104, east and west, don't show M-231 extending to the north, as well as the sign on northbound M-231 when approaching M-104 that says the route is ending. I would be curious to see what MDOT says. I noticed that the Ottawa County GIS shows this stretch just as 120th Ave, but on MI Drive it shows it as M-231.
I saw new M-343 signs on Gull Rd today. If this is what our governor means by "fix the damn roads", color me unimpressed. The routing makes no sense.
Quote from: ce929wax on July 31, 2019, 07:14:19 PM
I saw new M-343 signs on Gull Rd today. If this is what our governor means by "fix the damn roads", color me unimpressed. The routing makes no sense.
I could never be able to stress enough how much I completely agree with this. What in hell's toilet were they thinking?
I don't at all understand the reason for rerouting M-43 in Kalamazoo County. And the even dumber M-343 along Full Road as already mentioned don't understand that either. MDOT does some strange things.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 31, 2019, 10:33:24 PM
I don't at all understand the reason for rerouting M-43 in Kalamazoo County. And the even dumber M-343 along Full Road as already mentioned don't understand that either. MDOT does some strange things.
Even with the turning back of pretty much all of the streets in downtown Kalamazoo, MDOT thinking they need to keep M-43 continuous seemed rather silly to me.
Quote from: rawmustard on August 01, 2019, 09:20:01 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 31, 2019, 10:33:24 PM
I don't at all understand the reason for rerouting M-43 in Kalamazoo County. And the even dumber M-343 along Full Road as already mentioned don't understand that either. MDOT does some strange things.
Even with the turning back of pretty much all of the streets in downtown Kalamazoo, MDOT thinking they need to keep M-43 continuous seemed rather silly to me.
This might be a fictional highways post, but I always thought it strange that M-43 has two east-west segments on totally different latitudes, joined by a long north-south segment. M-43 should have been two or three different routes to begin with. The section west of Kalamazoo should have the same number as M-96 (call that one M-43, because 96 is way too close to I-96). The northern east-west segment can be a western extension of M-59. Kalamazoo north to Hastings can have a different number (M-87 maybe?).
My feelings about M-46 are very similar. Why the big jog?
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on May 22, 2019, 12:57:42 AM
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/heraldpalladium.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/41/24199e44-9594-52af-ab5b-84239653ad6f/5ce3663d1e105.image.jpg)
I hope that this is NOT what MDOT has decided for an interchange design for the future interchange with I-94 and U.S. 31 where the current I-94 BL interchange (exit 33) is in St. Joseph.
Article:
https://www.heraldpalladium.com/news/local/open-house-on-u-s-extension-scheduled/article_9d7deb49-bb80-5836-ab20-6fde4495ccb0.html
EDIT: Fixed the image link.
Late to the party, but I am not a fan of this. For one, the I-94 west to US 31 south ramp should at least be a low-speed flyover. The bigger issue is that the left turn from I-94 BL to I-94 technically takes away the freeway aspect of US 31. It reminds me of the I-39/90/94 and Wisconsin 78 interchange near Portage, with the difference being that the left turn from Wis 78 north to I-90/94 west is before/after I-39 traffic transitions to/from the mainline.
I’m glad there’s some actual work in place to fill that infamous US 31 gap; I just hope they consider revisiting the interchange when it’s closer to construction time.
For those in the Grand Rapids area, how is the I-96/196 and Beltline interchange project progressing?
If I had my way, including enough additional cash to do it, I'd feed existing BL I-94 from the west into Highland Ave to the east as a major surface street and 'piggyback' the US 31 <-> I-94 freeway-to-freeway interchange on top of it, in a manner like what WisDOT is now doing at the I-39/90/I-43/WI 81 Milwaukee Rd interchange in Beloit, WI or recently did at the I-41/WI 29/32/Shawano Ave interchange in the Green Bay, WI area.
I've never liked instances where major local streets feed directly into full freeways and vice-versa at the edge of town.
Mike
A few years after implementing a "flex route" system (where the left shoulder may be designated as a traffic lane during rush hours or adverse incidents) along a portion of US-23 in Washtenaw County, MDOT has now announced plans to implement the same along I-96 in western Oakland County. This will run between east of Kent Lake Road (about a mile east of the Livingston/Oakland county line) and I-275. The I-96 bridges over Kent Lake Road and Kent Lake aren't wide enough for full-width shoulders and I assume the project will not include widening those bridges, which is one reason the western end of the flex lanes will be at Kent Lake Road and not all the way out to US-23.
Construction is anticipated to begin in 2021; the news release does not indicate when the project is anticipated to be complete and the flex lanes in operation. The project will include installation of entrance ramp meters at a few interchanges.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-503111--,00.html
This is long overdue, and actually makes the 3rd lane useful east of Westnedge Ave. Maybe in another 30 years the widening reaches I-69?
Quote
KALAMAZOO, MI – A major widening of Interstate 94 in Kalamazoo County is scheduled to begin in 2021, according to Michigan Department of Transportation plans.
I-94 from Lovers Lane to Sprinkle Road will undergo a major widening project, according to a draft version of MDOT's 2020-2024 Five-Year Transportation Program.
The project will make the road six lanes total, three for westbound traffic and three for eastbound traffic, MDOT spokesman Nick Schirripa said. The widened section will connect to another portion of I-94 west of the project location that is already three lanes in each direction.
I-94 to be widened from 4 to 6 lanes in Kalamazoo under MDOT planhttps://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/2019/08/i-94-will-be-widened-from-4-to-6-lanes-in-kalamazoo-county.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=mlivedotcom_sf (https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/2019/08/i-94-will-be-widened-from-4-to-6-lanes-in-kalamazoo-county.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=mlivedotcom_sf)
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 01, 2019, 10:11:23 AM
Quote from: rawmustard on August 01, 2019, 09:20:01 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 31, 2019, 10:33:24 PM
I don't at all understand the reason for rerouting M-43 in Kalamazoo County. And the even dumber M-343 along Full Road as already mentioned don't understand that either. MDOT does some strange things.
Even with the turning back of pretty much all of the streets in downtown Kalamazoo, MDOT thinking they need to keep M-43 continuous seemed rather silly to me.
This might be a fictional highways post, but I always thought it strange that M-43 has two east-west segments on totally different latitudes, joined by a long north-south segment. M-43 should have been two or three different routes to begin with. The section west of Kalamazoo should have the same number as M-96 (call that one M-43, because 96 is way too close to I-96). The northern east-west segment can be a western extension of M-59. Kalamazoo north to Hastings can have a different number (M-87 maybe?).
My feelings about M-46 are very similar. Why the big jog?
It use to go farther north and go through Ionia, Stanton, Ithaca and end in St. Charles. It was originally Kalamazoo to Hastings and then was extended west of Kalamazoo to South Haven long before US-131 was a freeway. I just don't understand the point of rerouting the highway and making M-343 makes no sense. M-143 doesn't make any sense either.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 10, 2019, 09:59:47 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 01, 2019, 10:11:23 AM
Quote from: rawmustard on August 01, 2019, 09:20:01 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 31, 2019, 10:33:24 PM
I don't at all understand the reason for rerouting M-43 in Kalamazoo County. And the even dumber M-343 along Full Road as already mentioned don't understand that either. MDOT does some strange things.
Even with the turning back of pretty much all of the streets in downtown Kalamazoo, MDOT thinking they need to keep M-43 continuous seemed rather silly to me.
This might be a fictional highways post, but I always thought it strange that M-43 has two east-west segments on totally different latitudes, joined by a long north-south segment. M-43 should have been two or three different routes to begin with. The section west of Kalamazoo should have the same number as M-96 (call that one M-43, because 96 is way too close to I-96). The northern east-west segment can be a western extension of M-59. Kalamazoo north to Hastings can have a different number (M-87 maybe?).
My feelings about M-46 are very similar. Why the big jog?
It use to go farther north and go through Ionia, Stanton, Ithaca and end in St. Charles. It was originally Kalamazoo to Hastings and then was extended west of Kalamazoo to South Haven long before US-131 was a freeway. I just don't understand the point of rerouting the highway and making M-343 makes no sense. M-143 doesn't make any sense either.
I understand the point of rerouting M-43 -- MDOT doesn't want to renumber the route west of Kalamazoo (would create motorist confusion) but at the same time doesn't want discontinuous segments of the same route number, a la Indiana. So I understand it; just not sure I agree with it. I'm sure that MDOT realizes that in reality nobody is going to follow M-43 as posted through the whole area, but this probably is one case where bureaucratic policy and procedure trump practical reality.
M-343 should just be an unnumbered trunkline. MDOT is taking that approach with Stadium Drive; I don't understand why they didn't do the same here. (Out of curiosity, is there an END assembly posted at the city limit, or does the signing just cease and leave motorists searching for a nonexistent route?)
I also agree M-143 should be unnumbered trunkline. It technically ends at the East Lansing city limit and doesn't even extend to US-127. It was unnumbered for awhile then was resurrected several years ago with a reconstruction project. I read somewhere that MDOT's policy at the time was to bring back route number designations when unsigned trunklines underwent major construction.
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 28, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
M-231 at Lincoln St near Grand Haven is getting new signals with technology that "extends the yellow signal for a vehicle it detects is not slowing fast enough".
The not-a-traffic-engineer layperson I am scratches my head at that explanation. Why not just extend the red phase for cross traffic until the intersection is clear? If people keep stuffing the intersection during the yellow phase, could they extend that yellow light indefinitely?
I'm sure there's a better explanation or strategy here that isn't encouraging drivers to run yellow lights. But this article doesn't describe that.
Signal at Lincoln, M-231 features new technology
https://www.grandhaventribune.com/Transportation/2019/07/20/Signal-at-Lincoln-and-M-231-features-new-technology (https://www.grandhaventribune.com/Transportation/2019/07/20/Signal-at-Lincoln-and-M-231-features-new-technology)
On a side note, this traffic signal on a 65 mph 2-lane setup seems awfully rare in Michigan. There is one at M-65 and M-55 near Whittemore, and at M-65's terminus at US-23 - though the county road south of US-23 at this intersection has an (unposted) 55 mph limit.
It's also unclear if 65 mph is legal at M-104 near Nunica, though one would be hard pressed to achieve 65 between the off-ramp from I-96 and the light at M-104. Though, at least of the last Google Street View image, it appears no signage is in place saying you can't drive 65mph NBD on M-231 though a green light. https://goo.gl/maps/SKLFZdDZbbQMsAUN6 (https://goo.gl/maps/SKLFZdDZbbQMsAUN6)
There is also the 4-way stop at M-55 and M-37 near Wellston where both roads are 65 mph on each side of the intersection. I found it hard to believe that M-55/M-65 has a full stoplight until I looked at the intersection in Street View
Quote from: ftballfan on August 16, 2019, 03:14:54 PM
There is also the 4-way stop at M-55 and M-37 near Wellston where both roads are 65 mph on each side of the intersection. I found it hard to believe that M-55/M-65 has a full stoplight until I looked at the intersection in Street View
There's a 4-way stop posted for 65 in all four directions at M-28 and M-123 near Eckerman in the U.P.. There's another at Bruce Crossing (M-28 at US-45) - thought I would argue that one should be posted for 40 or 45 mph approaching the 4-way stop.
MDOT says they had to reroute M-43 north on US-131 because of federal continuity rules.
https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo (https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo)
WB I-196 in GR over the Grand River was reopened this morning, around 9:15am. MDOT posted a video with some nice shots of the bridge and new signage.
Quote from: codeGR on August 30, 2019, 10:15:41 AM
MDOT says they had to reroute M-43 north on US-131 because of federal continuity rules.
https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo (https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo)
Still doesn't make much sense.
Quote from: codeGR on August 30, 2019, 10:15:41 AM
MDOT says they had to reroute M-43 north on US-131 because of federal continuity rules.
What "federal continuity rules"? I'm not buying it so far. If such rules existed and are/were enforced, I think there would be more numbering changes in Indiana.
It makes sense that routes are made to connect places but M-43 has always had a strange route. And now MDOT is into making spur routes and keeping the number scheme like the US or Interstate spur routes? M-343? I don't understand why it's not just an unnumbered route. Give it back to Kalamazoo County and go from there. This whole M-43 reroute in Kalamazoo was pointless.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2019, 09:11:28 PM
It makes sense that routes are made to connect places but M-43 has always had a strange route. And now MDOT is into making spur routes and keeping the number scheme like the US or Interstate spur routes? M-343? I don't understand why it's not just an unnumbered route. Give it back to Kalamazoo County and go from there. This whole M-43 reroute in Kalamazoo was pointless.
This is only happening because of Kalamazoo being greedy and wanting all non-freeway roads within city limits under their control. IMHO, M-43 should just end at M-89 near Richland, with the segment between South Haven and Kalamazoo getting a new number (there are plenty of 2-digit #'s available, such as 56, 70, 74, 76, 87, and 92).
MDOT has a history of putting 3-digit routes near its parent 2-digit route:
M-120 (starts at M-20 in Hesperia; a majority of the route is an old alignment of M-20)
M-137 (runs parallel to M-37 near Interlochen)
M-179 (would be M-79 if a three-way concurrency wasn't required through Hastings)
M-227 (runs mostly along a stretch of Old US-27 near Marshall)
M-231 (runs parallel to and relieves US-31 in the Grand Haven area)
M-294 (starts at I-94 and runs a very short distance in Battle Creek)
Former M-331 (ran along old US-131 (Westnedge Ave) in south Kalamazoo)
The aforementioned M-343
^I'd rather M-43 end at M-89 and the old M-43 from Richland to South Haven be another number than what MDOT is doing now.
M-20 does something simular near Big Rapids. M-20 turns to follow US-131 north to Big Rapids so that M-20 serves Big Rapids. However there is a shortcut that if you went east past 131, made one left turn, then a right you'll meet back up with M-20 on the other side of the Canadian Lakes area.
I did this as I was coming back from Ludington and did not want to use US-10.
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 02, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
M-20 does something simular near Big Rapids. M-20 turns to follow US-131 north to Big Rapids so that M-20 serves Big Rapids. However there is a shortcut that if you went east past 131, made one left turn, then a right you'll meet back up with M-20 on the other side of the Canadian Lakes area.
I did this as I was coming back from Ludington and did not want to use US-10.
Years ago, M-20 used to stairstep from Muskegon to Big Rapids via Holton, Fremont, and White Cloud. In the late 60s or early 70s, M-20 was realigned to run west from White Cloud to New Era along an upgraded county road to Hesperia and M-82 to New Era (M-82 was truncated to Hesperia (and later to where it meets M-120 west of Fremont) and M-120 was designated on former M-20 from Hesperia to Muskegon; the former M-20 between White Cloud and Fremont was turned over to Newaygo County). Around 2000, M-20 was moved from its stairstep route between White Cloud and Big Rapids to a nearly straight shot (there are a pair of 90 degree turns toward the east end) to US-131 near Stanwood.
Lansing's own truck-eating bridge strikes again. This one was a doozy!
https://www.wlns.com/news/local-news/semi-stuck-under-bridge-near-potter-park (https://www.wlns.com/news/local-news/semi-stuck-under-bridge-near-potter-park)
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 04, 2019, 04:14:25 PM
Lansing's own truck-eating bridge strikes again. This one was a doozy!
Is that the 12'0" marked RR bridge?
Quote from: ftballfan on September 02, 2019, 04:33:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 02, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
M-20 does something simular near Big Rapids. M-20 turns to follow US-131 north to Big Rapids so that M-20 serves Big Rapids. However there is a shortcut that if you went east past 131, made one left turn, then a right you'll meet back up with M-20 on the other side of the Canadian Lakes area.
I did this as I was coming back from Ludington and did not want to use US-10.
Years ago, M-20 used to stairstep from Muskegon to Big Rapids via Holton, Fremont, and White Cloud. In the late 60s or early 70s, M-20 was realigned to run west from White Cloud to New Era along an upgraded county road to Hesperia and M-82 to New Era (M-82 was truncated to Hesperia (and later to where it meets M-120 west of Fremont) and M-120 was designated on former M-20 from Hesperia to Muskegon; the former M-20 between White Cloud and Fremont was turned over to Newaygo County). Around 2000, M-20 was moved from its stairstep route between White Cloud and Big Rapids to a nearly straight shot (there are a pair of 90 degree turns toward the east end) to US-131 near Stanwood.
I knew M-120 was associated with M-20. Years ago M-120 was part of a three state continuation with Indiana and ohio which still have their parts. I discovered it one night when I was on the Michigan part and thought I was traveling east turns out I was traveling south east and into Ohio. I thought to myself did I just cross the Ohio line?
Quote from: GaryV on September 04, 2019, 04:34:27 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 04, 2019, 04:14:25 PM
Lansing's own truck-eating bridge strikes again. This one was a doozy!
Is that the 12'0" marked RR bridge?
Yup that's the one on Pennsylvania Avenue.
It likes to flood out too, just for fun:
https://twitter.com/lsjnews/status/504367993040949249
(With the caveat that M-Dot is presently working on this location)
What was the original intention of this intersection?
(M60 & US 131, SW of Three Rivers)
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9278395,-85.6560508,1103m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0
I found this to be an odd design when I drove through there today.
^
A fly-over that doesn't "fly"? Combined with a left entrance. Granted, both lanes continue; there's no merge.
M-60 goes through Three Rivers with a short concurrency of US-131. Evidently when it was built they decided that M-60 traffic wasn't enough to warrant a full interchange - not even a traffic light.
Quote from: codeGR on August 30, 2019, 10:22:28 AM
WB I-196 in GR over the Grand River was reopened this morning, around 9:15am. MDOT posted a video with some nice shots of the bridge and new signage.
This project seems like a total waste of time and money. Yeah there was a lane drop...and there's still a lane drop before you get to the next interchange at US-131! Since they had the freeway closed down to Lane Ave and had to WB exit off from US-131 closed for quite some time too, why not extend the lane to Lane Ave or further? They're probably going to have to do that in the near future anyway.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 04, 2019, 10:54:43 PM
(With the caveat that M-Dot is presently working on this location)
What was the original intention of this intersection?
(M60 & US 131, SW of Three Rivers)
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9278395,-85.6560508,1103m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9278395,-85.6560508,1103m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0)
I found this to be an odd design when I drove through there today.
That stretch of US-131 was built before MDOT was gung-ho about making all divided highways freeway (similar as US-31 between Holland and Grand Haven, US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca, etc.). Had it been built 10 years later, US-131 would've been built as freeway south from Portage, and the intersection(s) at M-60 would have likely been built as a full freeway interchange.
US-127 between Mason and Jackson was built similarly in the mid-'50s, then later converted to full freeway in the late 60's.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 05, 2019, 07:16:47 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 04, 2019, 10:54:43 PM
(With the caveat that M-Dot is presently working on this location)
What was the original intention of this intersection?
(M60 & US 131, SW of Three Rivers)
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9278395,-85.6560508,1103m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9278395,-85.6560508,1103m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0)
I found this to be an odd design when I drove through there today.
That stretch of US-131 was built before MDOT was gung-ho about making all divided highways freeway (similar as US-31 between Holland and Grand Haven, US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca, etc.). Had it been built 10 years later, US-131 would've been built as freeway south from Portage, and the intersection(s) at M-60 would have likely been built as a full freeway interchange.
US-127 between Mason and Jackson was built similarly in the mid-'50s, then later converted to full freeway in the late 60's.
Kind of ironic. I was on US-127 between Mason and Jackson when you posted this.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2019, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: codeGR on August 30, 2019, 10:15:41 AM
MDOT says they had to reroute M-43 north on US-131 because of federal continuity rules.
https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo (https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo)
Still doesn't make much sense.
IMHO, M-43 should have taken over M-179 to US-131, which is a shorter route than its route to Richland and then back up to Plainwell.
Drove all of M-343 yesterday and it definitely warrants a state highway number. However, the turn off old M-43 (Riverview Dr) onto M-343 (Gull Rd) is poorly signed
Quote from: ftballfan on September 12, 2019, 08:54:32 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2019, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: codeGR on August 30, 2019, 10:15:41 AM
MDOT says they had to reroute M-43 north on US-131 because of federal continuity rules.
https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo (https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo)
Still doesn't make much sense.
IMHO, M-43 should have taken over M-179 to US-131, which is a shorter route than its route to Richland and then back up to Plainwell.
Drove all of M-343 yesterday and it definitely warrants a state highway number. However, the turn off old M-43 (Riverview Dr) onto M-343 (Gull Rd) is poorly signed
I was on it briefly last Saturday. If it took over M-179 than does M-43 south of M-179 become M-89 or M-343?
I have checked with "the notorious" Google Maps. M-343 is shown, but M-43 is not shown along its new co-designation with M-89, nor along its new co-designation with US 131. It still shows M-43 along W. Main St. east of US 131 (until Michigan Ave.). Google Maps also shows both directions of Business US 131 beginning/terminating at W. Kalamazoo Ave instead of beginning/ending at W. Dunkley St. Business Interstate 94 is still shown in its entirety.
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 12, 2019, 09:24:27 AM
Quote from: ftballfan on September 12, 2019, 08:54:32 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2019, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: codeGR on August 30, 2019, 10:15:41 AM
MDOT says they had to reroute M-43 north on US-131 because of federal continuity rules.
https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo (https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo)
Still doesn't make much sense.
IMHO, M-43 should have taken over M-179 to US-131, which is a shorter route than its route to Richland and then back up to Plainwell.
Drove all of M-343 yesterday and it definitely warrants a state highway number. However, the turn off old M-43 (Riverview Dr) onto M-343 (Gull Rd) is poorly signed
I was on it briefly last Saturday. If it took over M-179 than does M-43 south of M-179 become M-89 or M-343?
This whole charade would have been avoided if MDOT had just given M-43 between South Haven and Kalamazoo a new number
Quote from: ftballfan on September 13, 2019, 11:59:03 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 12, 2019, 09:24:27 AM
Quote from: ftballfan on September 12, 2019, 08:54:32 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2019, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: codeGR on August 30, 2019, 10:15:41 AM
MDOT says they had to reroute M-43 north on US-131 because of federal continuity rules.
https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo (https://wwmt.com/news/local/portion-of-m-43-re-designated-to-m-343-after-mdot-hands-over-road-to-kalamazoo)
Still doesn't make much sense.
IMHO, M-43 should have taken over M-179 to US-131, which is a shorter route than its route to Richland and then back up to Plainwell.
Drove all of M-343 yesterday and it definitely warrants a state highway number. However, the turn off old M-43 (Riverview Dr) onto M-343 (Gull Rd) is poorly signed
I was on it briefly last Saturday. If it took over M-179 than does M-43 south of M-179 become M-89 or M-343?
This whole charade would have been avoided if MDOT had just given M-43 between South Haven and Kalamazoo a new number
Say maybe, M-343? :-P
I have seen new M-43 reassurance markers along M-89 in Plainwell. However, it is not acknowledged yet on the US 131 BGS on M-89.
I was on US-131 south of M-222 last Saturday and saw no mention of M-43. The only time I saw M-43 posted was in Kalamazoo and the control city was Hastings which is probably an old sign.
You are probably talking about the BGS mounted on the railroad bridge where Riverview/Kalamazoo Ave/ and East Michigan meet. It is a new enough sign to be done in Clearview.
Quote from: ce929wax on September 14, 2019, 01:15:36 AM
You are probably talking about the BGS mounted on the railroad bridge where Riverview/Kalamazoo Ave/ and East Michigan meet. It is a new enough sign to be done in Clearview.
Yeah that's it.
The latest proposal to resolve Michigan's road funding crisis: Let's just get rid of some of them, or let them revert back to gravel.
QuoteMACKINAC ISLAND -- As Lansing struggles with having enough money to fix the state's crumbling roads, Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey has a new proposal -- get rid of some of them.
"We've got too many roads," Shirkey told the Free Press in a weekend interview on Mackinac Island.
The number of lane miles in Michigan has increased significantly since 1980, at a much higher rate than the state's population, Shirkey said.
As a result, "we have way more roads per capita than most states do," and reducing the number of roads should be considered as part of a comprehensive road funding plan, he said.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/09/23/mike-shirkey-gop-return-paved-roads-gravel/2409886001/
[snarky comment] We've also got way more useless full-time legislators per capita than most states do. [/snarky comment]
It is an interesting idea. What do you do with roads where their purpose seems to have dissipated?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 24, 2019, 07:47:51 AM
The latest proposal to resolve Michigan's road funding crisis: Let's just get rid of some of them, or let them revert back to gravel.
QuoteMACKINAC ISLAND -- As Lansing struggles with having enough money to fix the state's crumbling roads, Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey has a new proposal -- get rid of some of them.
"We've got too many roads," Shirkey told the Free Press in a weekend interview on Mackinac Island.
The number of lane miles in Michigan has increased significantly since 1980, at a much higher rate than the state's population, Shirkey said.
As a result, "we have way more roads per capita than most states do," and reducing the number of roads should be considered as part of a comprehensive road funding plan, he said.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/09/23/mike-shirkey-gop-return-paved-roads-gravel/2409886001/
[snarky comment] We've also got way more useless full-time legislators per capita than most states do. [/snarky comment]
I know that travelmapping.net is not an exact set of state-maintained roads for each state, but in their database I see at least 10 states with smaller populations than Michigan but more road miles.
QuoteMACKINAC ISLAND -- As Lansing struggles with having enough money to fix the state's crumbling roads, Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey has a new proposal -- get rid of some of them.
"We've got too many roads," Shirkey told the Free Press in a weekend interview on Mackinac Island.
The number of lane miles in Michigan has increased significantly since 1980, at a much higher rate than the state's population, Shirkey said.
As a result, "we have way more roads per capita than most states do," and reducing the number of roads should be considered as part of a comprehensive road funding plan, he said.
"Dear Mr. President,
There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
P.S. I am not a crackpot."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5dmxBUbzBU
The I-94 at US 127/M-50 interchange in Jackson will be rebuilt into a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI). A very interesting choice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMW5qcteD1U
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on October 14, 2019, 02:27:23 PM
The I-94 at US 127/M-50 interchange in Jackson will be rebuilt into a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI). A very interesting choice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMW5qcteD1U
Why a DDI? That should be a freeway to freeway interchange, not adding stoplights.
Quote from: zzcarp on October 14, 2019, 02:54:56 PM
Why a DDI? That should be a freeway to freeway interchange, not adding stoplights.
It's not freeway to freeway now, for 2 reasons.
- The southern leg (Bus US-127) is not a freeway.
- I-94 wb to US-127/M-50 nb has a stoplight at the end of the ramp. This means sb US-127 has a traffic light at that ramp, before the current cloverleaf ramp to continue on US-127 sb (and I-94 eb).
Quote from: zzcarp on October 14, 2019, 02:54:56 PM
Why a DDI? That should be a freeway to freeway interchange, not adding stoplights.
Because it's cheaper.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on October 14, 2019, 02:27:23 PM
The I-94 at US 127/M-50 interchange in Jackson will be rebuilt into a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI). A very interesting choice.
Did they publish something explicitly stating that? I know they were considering it, but I'm not immediately finding info corroborating this.
Given that the ADT of US-127/West Ave isn't particularly high (about 31K north of I-94, 21K south of it), and there's not much room for putting in a flyover without running into ridiculously-expensive ROW purchases, it's a sensible choice. MDOT can later add flyover ramps if needed. At at minimum, it shouldn't make anything worse - there's no additional lights for any movement.
WisDOT is doing something similar in Janesville at the Hwy 26 interchange with I-39/90, except there are stoplights on both sides of the intersection, and considerably higher traffic.
I visited the Portage Lake Lift Bridge (also known as the Houghton-Hancock Lift Bridge) when I drove up US 41 to the Keweenaw Peninsula of Michigan's Upper Peninsula in September 2018. It's a spectacular bridge. I decided to blog about it.
Take a look at the blog post here:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2019/11/portage-lake-lift-bridge.html (https://www.gribblenation.org/2019/11/portage-lake-lift-bridge.html)
^
Regarding the interchange, at least the I-94 WB -> US-127 NB movement is still a free-flowing movement and is being retained.
There should at least be a flyover built between US-127 SB -> I-94 EB.
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 03, 2019, 11:57:10 AM
^
Regarding the interchange, at least the I-94 WB -> US-127 NB movement is still a free-flowing movement and is being retained.
There should at least be a flyover built between US-127 SB -> I-94 EB.
I don't disagree. But that's an expensive location to purchase ROW, and MDOT has bigger problems to solve with the money that building that flyover would require.
If a Toledo-to-Jackson freeway/expressway is ever built, that section of US-127 might attract enough regional traffic to warrant the flyover. But as it sits now, it just doesn't. It's part of the reason this interchange has remained in this configuration as long as it has.
Besides the decrepit I-94 overpasses, what this does is not force traffic into a tight 270º loop, then ask it to accelerate from 25 -> 70 and merge in a very short distance. It's merely terrible for cars; it's horrible for heavy trucks.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 03, 2019, 06:37:30 PM
If a Toledo-to-Jackson freeway/expressway is ever built, that section of US-127 might attract enough regional traffic to warrant the flyover. But as it sits now, it just doesn't. It's part of the reason this interchange has remained in this configuration as long as it has.
If the full freeway to Toledo is ever constructed, the entire overlap with I-94 would need an overhaul and reconstruction / widening to 6-lanes, and a massive overhaul of the junction in question. The eastern one as it is seems adequate as it's fully freeway-to-freeway.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 03, 2019, 06:37:30 PM
Besides the decrepit I-94 overpasses, what this does is not force traffic into a tight 270º loop, then ask it to accelerate from 25 -> 70 and merge in a very short distance. It's merely terrible for cars; it's horrible for heavy trucks.
Honestly, my thoughts on any loop ramp that dumps onto a 60-70 mph highway with only 2-lanes in one direction as it climbs uphill to make an overpass.
They should be avoided at all costs possible, or at least provide a barrier separated acceleration lane over the bridge before meeting the mainline lanes. but sadly they're still built quite frequently.
When I was in Plainwell yesterday, I saw WB M-43 being referenced on a junction sign and a standalone BGS at the SB 131 ramp in both directions. M-43 has not made it to the overhead BGS signs or referenced on the exit sign on SB 131 north of the exit. I do not know about NB 131 signs at the exit.
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 03, 2019, 06:55:21 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 03, 2019, 06:37:30 PM
If a Toledo-to-Jackson freeway/expressway is ever built, that section of US-127 might attract enough regional traffic to warrant the flyover. But as it sits now, it just doesn't. It's part of the reason this interchange has remained in this configuration as long as it has.
If the full freeway to Toledo is ever constructed, the entire overlap with I-94 would need an overhaul and reconstruction / widening to 6-lanes, and a massive overhaul of the junction in question. The eastern one as it is seems adequate as it's fully freeway-to-freeway.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 03, 2019, 06:37:30 PM
Besides the decrepit I-94 overpasses, what this does is not force traffic into a tight 270º loop, then ask it to accelerate from 25 -> 70 and merge in a very short distance. It's merely terrible for cars; it's horrible for heavy trucks.
Honestly, my thoughts on any loop ramp that dumps onto a 60-70 mph highway with only 2-lanes in one direction as it climbs uphill to make an overpass.
They should be avoided at all costs possible, or at least provide a barrier separated acceleration lane over the bridge before meeting the mainline lanes. but sadly they're still built quite frequently.
Part of the I-94 reconstruction in Jackson includes 6-laning between US-127 North and US-127 South, supposedly to be completed by 2021. That's been needed for 40 years, and they're finally getting it. It should've been extended from M-60 to Sargent Rd, but at least the most critical stretch is getting attention.
Keep in mind that the current arrangement opened to traffic in
1951 as a US-12 bypass of Jackson. Truman was president when this thing was designed, and the basic design is unchanged from that early '50s vintage roadway. Nobody foresaw in 1951 that their brand-new US-12 bypass would still be in its basic configuration 70 years later, or that over 10,000 semi trucks per day would be mixing it up with 50,000+ other vehicles on it.
Don't know how quickly this problem will be taken care of.
Last night a garbage truck slammed into the McCarty Road overpass along I-675 in Saginaw County. It sent debris all over the place and MDOT will need to inspect the bridge for structural damage.
I don't know whether it's because of a labor shortage or other issues, but with winter upon us there apparently are a lot of unfinished roadwork projects still out there. MDOT has issued warning notices to contractors.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-512281--,00.html
Quote
November 14, 2019 -- The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) has notified road contractors working on any project that is behind the schedule agreed to in the contract that they need to have an action plan or risk receiving a notice of default.
"Our goal at MDOT is the safe and efficient travel of people and goods," said MDOT Director Paul C. Ajegba. "We value the workers building and repairing our roads, and it is vital that we ensure the taxpayers that the department is providing robust oversight and that contracts are enforced."
Contractors were notified on dozens of projects on highways under state jurisdiction (I, M, and US routes).
Each contractor has been asked to submit an updated progress schedule within 48 hours. Contractors are also asked to include a narrative on how their company plans to avoid further delays and get back on schedule.
Also, the contractors are being notified that failure to provide an updated progress schedule and mitigation plan by the requested date may result in notice of default with the contractor being required to pay any costs above the original contract price.
It's weather related. The early winter weather has slowed down road construction in Michigan (and other states as well): https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/11/14/cold-delays-completion-highway-work-interstate-75-north-detroit/4188799002/
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 04, 2019, 08:11:06 PM
Keep in mind that the current arrangement opened to traffic in 1951 as a US-12 bypass of Jackson. Truman was president when this thing was designed, and the basic design is unchanged from that early '50s vintage roadway. Nobody foresaw in 1951 that their brand-new US-12 bypass would still be in its basic configuration 70 years later, or that over 10,000 semi trucks per day would be mixing it up with 50,000+ other vehicles on it.
I think more specifically, what nobody foresaw in 1951 was the coming of the Interstate highway system with its advanced (for its time) design standards a mere dozen years later, for which Michigan was (understandably?) reluctant to abandon relatively new roads. One can argue that Michigan's "good roads" push to build bypasses and divided highways just before the Interstate highway era began is what has made many trunklines hopelessly obsolete now. Once the need for
re-improvement finally reared its head, the funding wasn't there or other obstacles were (environmental, ROW. etc.).
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on November 16, 2019, 01:26:29 PM
It's weather related. The early winter weather has slowed down road construction in Michigan (and other states as well): https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/11/14/cold-delays-completion-highway-work-interstate-75-north-detroit/4188799002/
What these articles forget to mention is the late start many projects got due to snow sticking around later than usual (in northern Michigan and the UP, major projects couldn't start up until early to mid May while downstate projects couldn't start until mid April)
Pavement removal and replacement needed on portions of the I-75 modernization project in Oakland County
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-513321--,00.html
QuoteNovember 26, 2019 -- Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) inspection teams working on Segment 2 of the I-75 modernization project in Oakland County discovered the incorrect concrete mix was used recently on portions of the project, including the left two lanes of northbound I-75 from 13 1/2 Mile to 14 Mile roads, and the shoulders on the exit ramps to Big Beaver and Rochester roads. Due to this discovery, contractor paving crews will remove and replace those affected portions before all paving is completed in late 2020. Currently, both directions of I-75 are sharing the southbound side of the freeway, separated by a temporary concrete barrier between 13 Mile Road and Coolidge Highway. Two lanes are open in each direction.
"This is inspectors doing their jobs," said MDOT Metro Region Engineer Kimberly Avery. "The pavement designated for replacement is safe for drivers to use, but the long-term durability is compromised and the reason for our actions."
Contractor crews began removing the shoulder on a portion of the Rochester Road ramp this past weekend and have already replaced the pavement. Replacement of the left lanes from 13 1/2 Mile to 14 Mile roads and the remainder of the shoulder pavement on the ramps will be delayed until next year during the final year of the overall project.
In 2020, both directions of I-75 will be sharing the new northbound pavement in order to allow crews to rebuild the southbound lanes between Coolidge Highway and 13 Mile Road. Engineers have determined that this section is safe for drivers to use over the winter months.
"This direction is the equivalent to enforcing a warranty," Avery said. "This action does not add additional costs to the contract and protects the taxpayer investment in the future."
Semi-random question inspired by a post in the fictional highway section: Is there a reason I-96 was not routed down M-10 to downtown Detroit over the current route?
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 29, 2019, 01:34:35 PM
Semi-random question inspired by a post in the fictional highway section: Is there a reason I-96 was not routed down M-10 to downtown Detroit over the current route?
I-96 was never intended to be on the Lodge. It was suppose to closely parallel Grand River Avenue (formerly US-16). In the early 60's though freeway revolts were going on everywhere and several of Detroit's planned freeways were modified, scaled back, or cancelled. So instead of destroying communties and businesses close to Grand River they decided that the Jeffries Freeway would no longer utilize the Grand River Avenue corridor. Instead it was built along the planned I-275 and over Schoolcraft Road instead. Then it connects back to where the Grand River freeway would have ended up.
It took an arm and leg to get I-696 built too that wasn't completed until the late 80's.
I-475 northbound is still closed and will be until at least July. Southbound is open though.
I went to Starlite Coney Island for breakfast and rode on it for the first time the other day.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 29, 2019, 06:43:29 PM
I-475 northbound is still closed and will be until at least July. Southbound is open though.
I went to Starlite Coney Island for breakfast and rode on it for the first time the other day.
Apparently MDOT is trying a new pavement design on the northbound side and didn't want to (or couldn't) rush the project after bad-weather delays.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-514840--,00.html
I hope MDOT keeps better notes and follow-up than it did with the experimental I-75 pavement in downtown Detroit ~25 years ago. A couple decades later, it seems nobody at MDOT knew anything about that project.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 01, 2020, 09:10:43 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 29, 2019, 06:43:29 PM
I-475 northbound is still closed and will be until at least July. Southbound is open though.
I went to Starlite Coney Island for breakfast and rode on it for the first time the other day.
Apparently MDOT is trying a new pavement design on the northbound side and didn't want to (or couldn't) rush the project after bad-weather delays.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-514840--,00.html
I hope MDOT keeps better notes and follow-up than it did with the experimental I-75 pavement in downtown Detroit ~25 years ago. A couple decades later, it seems nobody at MDOT knew anything about that project.
I remember that project.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 29, 2019, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 29, 2019, 01:34:35 PM
Semi-random question inspired by a post in the fictional highway section: Is there a reason I-96 was not routed down M-10 to downtown Detroit over the current route?
I-96 was never intended to be on the Lodge. It was suppose to closely parallel Grand River Avenue (formerly US-16). In the early 60's though freeway revolts were going on everywhere and several of Detroit's planned freeways were modified, scaled back, or cancelled. So instead of destroying communties and businesses close to Grand River they decided that the Jeffries Freeway would no longer utilize the Grand River Avenue corridor. Instead it was built along the planned I-275 and over Schoolcraft Road instead. Then it connects back to where the Grand River freeway would have ended up.
It took an arm and leg to get I-696 built too that wasn't completed until the late 80's.
Also, M-10 isn't up to interstate highway standards. Especially the section between Wyoming and 8 Mile, which was built within the right of way of the old James Couzens Highway. It's very narrow in that stretch and has twists and turns (a relic of the original highway). I made a thread in the Fictional Highways forum a few years back that discussed what it would take to turn it into an interstate.
Quote from: 23skidoo on January 02, 2020, 07:07:34 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 29, 2019, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 29, 2019, 01:34:35 PM
Semi-random question inspired by a post in the fictional highway section: Is there a reason I-96 was not routed down M-10 to downtown Detroit over the current route?
I-96 was never intended to be on the Lodge. It was suppose to closely parallel Grand River Avenue (formerly US-16). In the early 60's though freeway revolts were going on everywhere and several of Detroit's planned freeways were modified, scaled back, or cancelled. So instead of destroying communties and businesses close to Grand River they decided that the Jeffries Freeway would no longer utilize the Grand River Avenue corridor. Instead it was built along the planned I-275 and over Schoolcraft Road instead. Then it connects back to where the Grand River freeway would have ended up.
It took an arm and leg to get I-696 built too that wasn't completed until the late 80's.
Also, M-10 isn't up to interstate highway standards. Especially the section between Wyoming and 8 Mile, which was built within the right of way of the old James Couzens Highway. It's very narrow in that stretch and has twists and turns (a relic of the original highway). I made a thread in the Fictional Highways forum a few years back that discussed what it would take to turn it into an interstate.
That's true as well. It would take a lot to make it into an interstate. Someone recently posted in the fictional highways forum about turning the Southfield Freeway into an interstate. Not much of a reason for it either.
M-10 along the Lodge Freeway will never be an Interstate, nor should it be. I looked at 23skidoo's "Lodge (M-10) widening/straightening in Detroit." While it looks like a worthwhile proposal from a fictional standpoint, I'm sure if MDOT actually proposed it in the real world, the locals would go ballistic. I highly doubt that segment of M-10 will ever be modified, even if someone could make the case that it should be.
MDOT is proposing installing cul-de-sacs where Empire Ave meets new US-31 in Berrien County instead of building a bridge over the new freeway.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06 (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06)
Quote from: codeGR on January 03, 2020, 09:27:04 AM
MDOT is proposing installing cul-de-sacs where Empire Ave meets new US-31 in Berrien County instead of building a bridge over the new freeway.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06 (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06)
What are the traffic volumes there?
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 03, 2020, 05:56:32 PM
Quote from: codeGR on January 03, 2020, 09:27:04 AM
MDOT is proposing installing cul-de-sacs where Empire Ave meets new US-31 in Berrien County instead of building a bridge over the new freeway.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06 (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06)
What are the traffic volumes there?
It can't be much - they don't even bother to post it here: http://www.mcgi.state.mi.us/ntfa/ I would be surprised if it exceeded 200 vpd. There's only one home on the affected stretch of road. Getting a resurfacing of several roads in the immediate area in exchange for not having a bridge at Empire Ave seems like a reasonable tradeoff.
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 05, 2020, 11:55:53 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 03, 2020, 05:56:32 PM
Quote from: codeGR on January 03, 2020, 09:27:04 AM
MDOT is proposing installing cul-de-sacs where Empire Ave meets new US-31 in Berrien County instead of building a bridge over the new freeway.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06 (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06)
What are the traffic volumes there?
It can't be much - they don't even bother to post it here: http://www.mcgi.state.mi.us/ntfa/ I would be surprised if it exceeded 200 vpd. There's only one home on the affected stretch of road. Getting a resurfacing of several roads in the immediate area in exchange for not having a bridge at Empire Ave seems like a reasonable tradeoff.
Works for me. How is US-31 suppose to cross I-94? Into the south end of I-196 or swing back to I-94?
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 05, 2020, 11:55:53 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 03, 2020, 05:56:32 PM
Quote from: codeGR on January 03, 2020, 09:27:04 AM
MDOT is proposing installing cul-de-sacs where Empire Ave meets new US-31 in Berrien County instead of building a bridge over the new freeway.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06 (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2722b06)
What are the traffic volumes there?
It can't be much - they don't even bother to post it here: http://www.mcgi.state.mi.us/ntfa/ I would be surprised if it exceeded 200 vpd. There's only one home on the affected stretch of road. Getting a resurfacing of several roads in the immediate area in exchange for not having a bridge at Empire Ave seems like a reasonable tradeoff.
Especially considering Napier is less than a mile south of Empire. If Britain is getting a bridge, it's only a half mile north of Empire
This is just another example but in my area around Saginaw there's I-675 that has an exit and overpass at Tittabawassee and a mile south an overpass at McCarty. In between is Schust which dead ends on both sides of I-675. Schust is pretty busy on the west side of 675 all the way to Mackinaw where it ends into Jonquil Drive. It works out pretty good and this is a busier area than we are encountering with US-31.
Mackinac Bridge rolling out new format for MacPass
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/New_MacPass_stickers_Dec_675014_7.pdf
QuoteDecember 30, 2019 -- The MacPass toll card is being replaced with a windshield-mounted sticker for customer convenience, and for a limited time they are available for free.
The Mackinac Bridge Authority (MBA) has been slowly replacing current MacPass cards with the new stickers for the past few months and is now encouraging others to make the switch as well. Customers are encouraged to visit the MacPass website at https://MacPass.MackinacBridge.org to sign up for an account and receive stickers in the mail.
"Unlike the old MacPass cards that required drivers to roll down their window and hold the card near the reader device, the new system will automatically scan the windshield sticker when drivers pull up to the toll booths," said MBA Executive Secretary Kim Nowack. "Drivers still need to stop and wait for the gate to rise before proceeding, but the new process will speed transactions for frequent customers."
The stickers are part of a new tolling software system installed last fall. Anyone can open a MacPass account, which allows for online deposits and transaction information. MacPass stickers are currently free but will be $1 each after July 1, 2020.
QuoteThough the MacPass is not exclusively for commuter customers, MacPass holders with passenger vehicles can still qualify for the commuter discount toll if they make both a northbound and southbound trip within 36 hours. The toll will be $4 for the first trip but customers will not be charged for the return trip if completed within 36 hours.
Current MacPass cards can still be used through the end of 2020. MacPass is the only tolling transponder currently in use at the Mackinac Bridge; I-Pass, E-ZPass, SunPass, etc., though similar, are not accepted.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 06, 2020, 09:48:25 PM
Mackinac Bridge rolling out new format for MacPass
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/New_MacPass_stickers_Dec_675014_7.pdf
QuoteDecember 30, 2019 -- The MacPass toll card is being replaced with a windshield-mounted sticker for customer convenience, and for a limited time they are available for free.
The Mackinac Bridge Authority (MBA) has been slowly replacing current MacPass cards with the new stickers for the past few months and is now encouraging others to make the switch as well. Customers are encouraged to visit the MacPass website at https://MacPass.MackinacBridge.org to sign up for an account and receive stickers in the mail.
"Unlike the old MacPass cards that required drivers to roll down their window and hold the card near the reader device, the new system will automatically scan the windshield sticker when drivers pull up to the toll booths," said MBA Executive Secretary Kim Nowack. "Drivers still need to stop and wait for the gate to rise before proceeding, but the new process will speed transactions for frequent customers."
The stickers are part of a new tolling software system installed last fall. Anyone can open a MacPass account, which allows for online deposits and transaction information. MacPass stickers are currently free but will be $1 each after July 1, 2020.
QuoteThough the MacPass is not exclusively for commuter customers, MacPass holders with passenger vehicles can still qualify for the commuter discount toll if they make both a northbound and southbound trip within 36 hours. The toll will be $4 for the first trip but customers will not be charged for the return trip if completed within 36 hours.
Current MacPass cards can still be used through the end of 2020. MacPass is the only tolling transponder currently in use at the Mackinac Bridge; I-Pass, E-ZPass, SunPass, etc., though similar, are not accepted.
what about the law forcing interoperability?? Or are the new cards ready for interoperability
and the signs for any MacPass only lane need to say MacPass IS NOT E-ZPASS or I-PASS
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on January 06, 2020, 10:26:37 PM
what about the law forcing interoperability?? Or are the new cards ready for interoperability
and the signs for any MacPass only lane need to say MacPass IS NOT E-ZPASS or I-PASS
Apparently it isn't in force yet, as it has been cited by MDOT that the Mackinac Bridge Authority feels that it is too costly to integrate with other toll networks at the present time.
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on January 06, 2020, 10:26:37 PM
what about the law forcing interoperability?? Or are the new cards ready for interoperability
and the signs for any MacPass only lane need to say MacPass IS NOT E-ZPASS or I-PASS
Can you refresh me as to what this law is? I am not familiar.
I am curious what kind of fees MBA would have to pay per transaction if they accepted those other passes. And how those fees would compare with credit card fees. I don't know much about the E-ZPass group.
Quote from: rawmustard on January 07, 2020, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on January 06, 2020, 10:26:37 PM
what about the law forcing interoperability?? Or are the new cards ready for interoperability
and the signs for any MacPass only lane need to say MacPass IS NOT E-ZPASS or I-PASS
Apparently it isn't in force yet, as it has been cited by MDOT that the Mackinac Bridge Authority feels that it is too costly to integrate with other toll networks at the present time.
Pity FHWA can't withhold federal funds to Michigan until that system is interoperable. IMO since the bridge is on an interstate, the transponder system needs to be interoperable.
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 08, 2020, 10:52:51 PM
Quote from: rawmustard on January 07, 2020, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on January 06, 2020, 10:26:37 PM
what about the law forcing interoperability?? Or are the new cards ready for interoperability
and the signs for any MacPass only lane need to say MacPass IS NOT E-ZPASS or I-PASS
Apparently it isn't in force yet, as it has been cited by MDOT that the Mackinac Bridge Authority feels that it is too costly to integrate with other toll networks at the present time.
Pity FHWA can't withhold federal funds to Michigan until that system is interoperable. IMO since the bridge is on an interstate, the transponder system needs to be interoperable.
We're already a donor state. We can't really afford to give up any funds for something that only a relative few people will use. We have no other toll roads that would require the interoperability that some here think we need.
All lanes of Northbound I-75 are closed north of exit 111. All drivers are forced to take I-475. Northbound I-475 is still closed between Carpenter and Clio Roads. Taking I-475 to Hill Road (exit 2), then going west to US-23 north and back into I-75 is one option, taking I-475 to I-69 west then back to I-75 is another option and the last option would be to get off at Carpenter Road, making a left, then a right on Clio Road and back to I-475 north then into I-75 is another option.
The reason is due to a large sinkhole on NB I-75 between I-475's southern terminus and the US-23 split near Bishop Airport.
Here are a couple photos
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200111/bff28f2dfb806751898b99d62ab761a8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200111/a91a8ca1e1c847d0eabb133ee0d7fee8.jpg)
Meanwhile, in Eaton Rapids, a culvert that really should be a bridge:
(https://i.imgur.com/NWRaCz3.png)
I-75 has been reopened.
By a 31-7 vote, the Michigan Senate approved a bill that would require the Michigan Department of Transportation to hire an outside consultant to study the feasibility of putting toll booths on Michigan highways. The bill still has to go to the House and be signed by the governor. Under the bill, the study would have to be done 18 months after the bill becomes law and, depending on the results, the governor would be tasked with creating a strategic plan for tolling interstate highways in Michigan.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2020/01/28/toll-roads-michigan-senate-road-repairs/4598057002/
Dang. If there was one state where I thought tolling highways would be recieved like a lead brick, it would have been Michigan.
Quote from: Rothman on January 28, 2020, 10:25:23 PM
Dang. If there was one state where I thought tolling highways would be recieved like a lead brick, it would have been Michigan.
It may end up received so. The Senate thinks it should at least be given a serious objective study, especially since the tax increase proposals are going nowhere.
They would lose all Federal funding by turning interstate highways into toll roads. They would never get approved to do this.
All those shiny new 'managed lanes' that are (or will be) turning up like the ones on US-23 north of Ann Arbor will soon be open 24-hours per day, and will require a transponder. Just wait for it ...
The state just bonded over $3 billion to fast-forward a whole bunch of projects. See here:
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/mdot_2020-2024_FiveYTP_679723_7.pdf (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/mdot_2020-2024_FiveYTP_679723_7.pdf)
Lansing State Journal article: https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/michigan-transportation-commission-roads-bonds-whitmer/4618650002/
Free Press article: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/road-bonds-projects-metro-detroit/4620026002/ (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/road-bonds-projects-metro-detroit/4620026002/)
Work on completing US-31 freeway in Berrien County to begin this summer.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008_92734---,00.html
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2020, 09:45:43 PM
The state just bonded over $3 billion to fast-forward a whole bunch of projects. See here:
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/mdot_2020-2024_FiveYTP_679723_7.pdf (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/mdot_2020-2024_FiveYTP_679723_7.pdf)
Lansing State Journal article: https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/michigan-transportation-commission-roads-bonds-whitmer/4618650002/
Free Press article: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/road-bonds-projects-metro-detroit/4620026002/ (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/road-bonds-projects-metro-detroit/4620026002/)
Yet, US-23 between I-94 and M-14 doesn't make the five year plan for anything (IMHO it's the road in Michigan that needs work done the soonest)
Naw, they'll let that stretch of highway fall to shit before anything is done about it. The frost heaves have been there for decades.
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 31, 2020, 10:43:52 AM
Work on completing US-31 freeway in Berrien County to begin this summer.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008_92734---,00.html
Wouldn't it make more sense to tie US-31 seamlessly into I-196?
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 12, 2020, 05:53:14 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 31, 2020, 10:43:52 AM
Work on completing US-31 freeway in Berrien County to begin this summer.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008_92734---,00.html
Wouldn't it make more sense to tie US-31 seamlessly into I-196?
That was the original plan 30+ years ago, but a rare butterfly species was discovered along the planned route (or something like that, I'm not a butterfly expert), which caused the reroute.
Quote from: cabiness42 on February 12, 2020, 07:41:56 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 12, 2020, 05:53:14 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 31, 2020, 10:43:52 AM
Work on completing US-31 freeway in Berrien County to begin this summer.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008_92734---,00.html
Wouldn't it make more sense to tie US-31 seamlessly into I-196?
That was the original plan 30+ years ago, but a rare butterfly species was discovered along the planned route (or something like that, I'm not a butterfly expert), which caused the reroute.
So looking at the documents from the public meeting (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_US31_Handout_v5_656000_7.pdf), the I-94/US 31 interchange doesn't look like it's going to be a free flowing interchange. I guess in the (very distant) future if they wanted to make US31 an interstate, they could add two more cloverleafs in the interchange and make it free flowing.
Quote from: mvak36 on February 12, 2020, 08:38:44 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on February 12, 2020, 07:41:56 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 12, 2020, 05:53:14 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 31, 2020, 10:43:52 AM
Work on completing US-31 freeway in Berrien County to begin this summer.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008_92734---,00.html
Wouldn't it make more sense to tie US-31 seamlessly into I-196?
That was the original plan 30+ years ago, but a rare butterfly species was discovered along the planned route (or something like that, I'm not a butterfly expert), which caused the reroute.
So looking at the documents from the public meeting (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_US31_Handout_v5_656000_7.pdf), the I-94/US 31 interchange doesn't look like it's going to be a free flowing interchange. I guess in the (very distant) future if they wanted to make US31 an interstate, they could add two more cloverleafs in the interchange and make it free flowing.
I mentioned in another thread that Indiana has no plans to make US 31 a full freeway south of Plymouth, so without the freeway running all the way to Indianapolis, it's hard to see getting an interstate designation.
Quote from: cabiness42 on February 12, 2020, 08:47:07 AM
Quote from: mvak36 on February 12, 2020, 08:38:44 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on February 12, 2020, 07:41:56 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 12, 2020, 05:53:14 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 31, 2020, 10:43:52 AM
Work on completing US-31 freeway in Berrien County to begin this summer.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008_92734---,00.html
Wouldn't it make more sense to tie US-31 seamlessly into I-196?
That was the original plan 30+ years ago, but a rare butterfly species was discovered along the planned route (or something like that, I'm not a butterfly expert), which caused the reroute.
So looking at the documents from the public meeting (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_US31_Handout_v5_656000_7.pdf), the I-94/US 31 interchange doesn't look like it's going to be a free flowing interchange. I guess in the (very distant) future if they wanted to make US31 an interstate, they could add two more cloverleafs in the interchange and make it free flowing.
I mentioned in another thread that Indiana has no plans to make US 31 a full freeway south of Plymouth, so without the freeway running all the way to Indianapolis, it's hard to see getting an interstate designation.
Yeah. What they have planned for that interchange is more than enough. I don't think they will make it a freeway in Indiana either (at least in my lifetime).
The intersection does not need to be a full cloverleaf. The west leg, BL I-94, is a surface street. There is a loop ramp SB from 94/31 to 31.
Clearly, the funding increase didn't come soon enough.
Woman hurt when piece of bridge smashes through windshield
https://www.wlns.com/news/michigan/woman-hurt-when-piece-of-bridge-smashes-through-windshield/ (https://www.wlns.com/news/michigan/woman-hurt-when-piece-of-bridge-smashes-through-windshield/)
EDIT: Adding Free Press article. CW: bloody photo of car interior
Woman injured after concrete from bridge above U.S. 127 breaks off, goes through car's windshield
https://www.freep.com/story/news/2020/02/20/woman-hurt-after-concrete-ingham-county-bridge-goes-through-windshield/4819100002/ (https://www.freep.com/story/news/2020/02/20/woman-hurt-after-concrete-ingham-county-bridge-goes-through-windshield/4819100002/)
Quote from: ftballfan on February 10, 2020, 02:17:50 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2020, 09:45:43 PM
The state just bonded over $3 billion to fast-forward a whole bunch of projects. See here:
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/mdot_2020-2024_FiveYTP_679723_7.pdf (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/mdot_2020-2024_FiveYTP_679723_7.pdf)
Lansing State Journal article: https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/michigan-transportation-commission-roads-bonds-whitmer/4618650002/
Free Press article: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/road-bonds-projects-metro-detroit/4620026002/ (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/30/road-bonds-projects-metro-detroit/4620026002/)
Yet, US-23 between I-94 and M-14 doesn't make the five year plan for anything (IMHO it's the road in Michigan that needs work done the soonest)
By far the worst stretch of 23 in the state. I hate going through there because I know I'm always going to be on my brakes. I can't figure out why 23 hasn't been upgraded by now it's inexcusable. And the flexlanes are stupid.
Another bridge incident: A pedestrian bridge over I-94 near Van Dyke Avenue (M-53) collapsed about 5:20 this morning. Eastbound I-94 is closed; westbound will also be closed when crews and equipment arrive for removal. The entire bridge will be removed.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/03/27/pedestrian-bridge-collapse-detroit-i-94/2923943001/
This is in the area of the seven-mile I-94 Modernization Project, which is progressing at the speed of mammal evolution. In the meantime, dozens of other bridges of similar age and condition still stand... for now...
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 27, 2020, 08:59:29 AM
Another bridge incident: A pedestrian bridge over I-94 near Van Dyke Avenue (M-53) collapsed about 5:20 this morning. Eastbound I-94 is closed; westbound will also be closed when crews and equipment arrive for removal. The entire bridge will be removed.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/03/27/pedestrian-bridge-collapse-detroit-i-94/2923943001/
This is in the area of the seven-mile I-94 Modernization Project, which is progressing at the speed of mammal evolution. In the meantime, dozens of other bridges of similar age and condition still stand... for now...
Ya know what gets me is that they want to only do seven miles of I-94. The whole highway needs to be rebuilt. It's very outdated as you know.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 27, 2020, 08:59:29 AM
Another bridge incident: A pedestrian bridge over I-94 near Van Dyke Avenue (M-53) collapsed about 5:20 this morning.
Judging by the pictures, it's very unlikely that the bridge collapsed on its own.
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 27, 2020, 11:59:13 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 27, 2020, 08:59:29 AM
Another bridge incident: A pedestrian bridge over I-94 near Van Dyke Avenue (M-53) collapsed about 5:20 this morning.
Judging by the pictures, it's very unlikely that the bridge collapsed on its own.
QuoteA truck collided with a pedestrian bridge early Friday in Detroit, sending a portion of the span onto a freeway and blocking traffic along part of the heavily traveled thoroughfare, authorities said.
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 28, 2020, 12:05:22 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 27, 2020, 11:59:13 PM
Judging by the pictures, it's very unlikely that the bridge collapsed on its own.
QuoteA truck collided with a pedestrian bridge early Friday in Detroit, sending a portion of the span onto a freeway and blocking traffic along part of the heavily traveled thoroughfare, authorities said.
Up until late yesterday, the fact it was hit by a truck wasn't verified by authorities yet. But it was obvious from the pictures that's what happened.
MDOT has already started a project in Saginaw County along I-75 between Hess Road at mile marker 148 to I-675's southern terminus at mile marker 150. The project includes rebuilding exit 149 which is M-46 and redesigning that interchange as well as I believe adding another lane of travel on I-75. I-75 is currently eight lanes from mile marker 125 to mile marker 148 adding another travel lane between Hess Road and I-675 does make a lot of sense. The M-46 interchange and bridge are very old and outdated as well
A planned 1.5 mile relocation of US 2 away from the Lake Michigan shire near the Cut River recreation area (half hour west of St. Ignace) has been moved up to this spring because of increased sinkhole concerns.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008-524576--,00.html
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 23, 2020, 03:29:29 AM
A planned 1.5 mile relocation of US 2 away from the Lake Michigan shire near the Cut River recreation area (half hour west of St. Ignace) has been moved up to this spring because of increased sinkhole concerns.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008-524576--,00.html
I read an article on that last night. I never realized that US-2 got close enough to the water for that problem to occur.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 23, 2020, 07:35:15 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 23, 2020, 03:29:29 AM
A planned 1.5 mile relocation of US 2 away from the Lake Michigan shire near the Cut River recreation area (half hour west of St. Ignace) has been moved up to this spring because of increased sinkhole concerns.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008-524576--,00.html
I read an article on that last night. I never realized that US-2 got close enough to the water for that problem to occur.
I'm sure the rising water levels contributed to the underlying ground structures becoming more unstable.
Quote from: GaryV on April 23, 2020, 07:42:58 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 23, 2020, 07:35:15 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 23, 2020, 03:29:29 AM
A planned 1.5 mile relocation of US 2 away from the Lake Michigan shire near the Cut River recreation area (half hour west of St. Ignace) has been moved up to this spring because of increased sinkhole concerns.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008-524576--,00.html
I read an article on that last night. I never realized that US-2 got close enough to the water for that problem to occur.
I'm sure the rising water levels contributed to the underlying ground structures becoming more unstable.
Hopefully it gets resolved but the road is only being moved about 300 feet north.
US-2 runs right along a cliff edge along this stretch; with the rising water levels and such, relocating the highway is a prudent move. One could make an argument that the entire section between Epoufette and Brevort should be relocated farther away from shore, but that would also require a new Cut River Bridge. MDOT just sunk a bunch of money into fixing the bridge, so I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.
MDOT is taking public comment (https://www.michigan.gov/som/0,4669,7-192-47796-527149--,00.html) next month on transferring M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula to the Grand Traverse County Road Commission. Such a transfer would mean the removal of M-37 as a Pure Michigan Byway because county roads are ineligible for inclusion in the program, and the department cannot decommission that byway designation without a 30-day public comment period. The GTRC and City of Traverse City have supported the transfer, but Peninsula Township has opposed it.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on April 27, 2020, 03:38:14 PM
MDOT is taking public comment (https://www.michigan.gov/som/0,4669,7-192-47796-527149--,00.html) next month on transferring M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula to the Grand Traverse County Road Commission. Such a transfer would mean the removal of M-37 as a Pure Michigan Byway because county roads are ineligible for inclusion in the program, and the department cannot decommission that byway designation without a 30-day public comment period. The GTRC and City of Traverse City have supported the transfer, but Peninsula Township has opposed it.
If MDOT were to transfer M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula to Grand Traverse County, it would likely lead to the removal of one of very few three-way concurrencies in Michigan (US-31/M-37/M-72 run concurrent along West Grand Traverse Bay for two miles)
Quote from: ftballfan on April 27, 2020, 06:04:50 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on April 27, 2020, 03:38:14 PM
MDOT is taking public comment (https://www.michigan.gov/som/0,4669,7-192-47796-527149--,00.html) next month on transferring M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula to the Grand Traverse County Road Commission. Such a transfer would mean the removal of M-37 as a Pure Michigan Byway because county roads are ineligible for inclusion in the program, and the department cannot decommission that byway designation without a 30-day public comment period. The GTRC and City of Traverse City have supported the transfer, but Peninsula Township has opposed it.
If MDOT were to transfer M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula to Grand Traverse County, it would likely lead to the removal of one of very few three-way concurrencies in Michigan (US-31/M-37/M-72 run concurrent along West Grand Traverse Bay for two miles)
MDOT put together a memo in October 1982 (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dual_and_Triple_Routing_on_State_Trunklines_1982-10-19) about eliminating concurrencies to "reduce as much of this unnecessary routing as possible in an attempt to avoid driver confusion and save funds". At the time, the state had nine triples. Of those, four were subsequently removed:
- BS I-96/Bus. US 31/M-46 in Muskegon in 1984
- I-75/US 10/US 23 between Bay City and Grand Blanc in 1986
- I-96/I-69/US 27 near Lansing in 2001
- BL I-94/Bus. US 131/M-43 in Kalamazoo in 2019
BL I-94/M-37/M-96 in Battle Creek was later added to the list in 1998. That leaves:
- US 2/US 141/M-95 at Iron Mountain
- US 2/US 41/M-35 between Escanaba and Gladstone
- US 31/M-37/M-72 in Traverse City
- US 131/M-66/M-72 in Kalkaska
- BL I-94/M-37/M-96 in Battle Creek
- BL I-94/Bus. 127/M-50 in Jackson
Interesting memo. They got rid of some of the doubles* as well. Although I'm not sure how they wanted to remove all of them, unless you go to hidden concurrencies on the more major route like in some other states. For example, M-55 is on the list with 3 dups plus a BR dup. Are you going to divide M-55 up into 4 separate sections just to eliminate the overlaps?
* - one glaring double that is still there - I-96 and I-275
Quote from: GaryV on April 28, 2020, 08:34:27 AM
Interesting memo. They got rid of some of the doubles* as well. Although I'm not sure how they wanted to remove all of them, unless you go to hidden concurrencies on the more major route like in some other states. For example, M-55 is on the list with 3 dups plus a BR dup. Are you going to divide M-55 up into 4 separate sections just to eliminate the overlaps?
* - one glaring double that is still there - I-96 and I-275
In Traverse City, M-22 still has a useless concurrency with M-72 just for it to end at US-31
Quote from: GaryV on April 28, 2020, 08:34:27 AM
Interesting memo. They got rid of some of the doubles* as well. Although I'm not sure how they wanted to remove all of them, unless you go to hidden concurrencies on the more major route like in some other states. For example, M-55 is on the list with 3 dups plus a BR dup. Are you going to divide M-55 up into 4 separate sections just to eliminate the overlaps?
* - one glaring double that is still there - I-96 and I-275
The followup memo the next year (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dual_and_Triple_Routing_on_State_Trunklines_1983-03-17) details some of the plans that were proposed internally in the department. Some came to pass, like removing US 33 and creating M-63, but not others like truncating M-54.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on April 28, 2020, 03:04:42 PM
Quote from: GaryV on April 28, 2020, 08:34:27 AM
Interesting memo. They got rid of some of the doubles* as well. Although I'm not sure how they wanted to remove all of them, unless you go to hidden concurrencies on the more major route like in some other states. For example, M-55 is on the list with 3 dups plus a BR dup. Are you going to divide M-55 up into 4 separate sections just to eliminate the overlaps?
* - one glaring double that is still there - I-96 and I-275
The followup memo the next year (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dual_and_Triple_Routing_on_State_Trunklines_1983-03-17) details some of the plans that were proposed internally in the department. Some came to pass, like removing US 33 and creating M-63, but not others like truncating M-54.
Kind of interesting that they had internal plans for eliminating US-10 completely in MI at one point (with M-10 (or an extended M-25) taking the Ludington-Bay City segment and M-4 taking the Lodge Freeway segment). If that had come to fruition, it's likely M-10 or M-25 would have ended at US-31 in Scottville, with M-116 being extended from downtown Ludington to meet US-31
I notice they had plans to split M-28 into two segments; I'm glad that did not come to pass. M-28 is a signature E-W corridor through the Upper Peninsula. Some would say it should be designated as a US highway. Having a single route number connecting Ironwood and Sault Ste. Marie makes complete sense.
It's probably for that reason that US-41 meanders through the U.P. to connect Houghton, Marquette, Escanaba, and Menominee instead of following the logical path south along the current US-141 through Iron Mountain.
If MDOT seriously wanted to minimize concurrences in the U.P., here's what they should do:
- reroute US-41 along the current US-141 corridor south to Abrams
- designate the existing US-41 as US-241
- route the new US-241 designation along M-35 between Menominee and Escanaba
- terminate the new US-241 in downtown Marquette
- re-designate US-2 along the M-28 corridor
- re-designate existing US-2 as US-202 between Ironwood and Norway
- designate US-8 east of Iron Mountain along the existing US-2 corridor to St. Ignace
It will never happen because it would completely confuse everyone just to make a bunch of straighter lines on a map. But it *would* result in less concurrences.
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 29, 2020, 01:35:25 PM
If MDOT seriously wanted to minimize concurrences in the U.P., here's what they should do:
- reroute US-41 along the current US-141 corridor south to Abrams
- designate the existing US-41 as US-241
- route the new US-241 designation along M-35 between Menominee and Escanaba
- terminate the new US-241 in downtown Marquette
- re-designate US-2 along the M-28 corridor
- re-designate existing US-2 as US-202 between Ironwood and Norway
- designate US-8 east of Iron Mountain along the existing US-2 corridor to St. Ignace
It will never happen because it would completely confuse everyone just to make a bunch of straighter lines on a map. But it *would* result in less concurrences.
I've gotta pitch in here, as this is similar to what I'd like to see:
- re-designate US-2 along M-28 to I-75. M-28 can continue to M-129
- re-designate US-2 as US-102 between Wakefield and the US-8 junction in Norway
- re-designate the existing US-2 between Norway and I-75 in St. Ignace as an extension of US-8
- reroute US-41 along the current US-141 north of Abrams.
- decommission US-141 south of Abrams
- re-designate US-41 north of Abrams as US-141
- terminate northbound US-141 at US-2 in Harvey.
M-35 already carries too much summer traffic along the lakeshore, and I'd hate to see that stretch widened or four-laned. I'd re-designate M-35 as M-7 between Menominee and Escanaba, and decommission M-35 between Escanaba and Gladstone. Maybe prohibit through commercial traffic along the lake
Just a pipe-dream obviously.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on April 27, 2020, 09:29:53 PM
MDOT put together a memo in October 1982 (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dual_and_Triple_Routing_on_State_Trunklines_1982-10-19) about eliminating concurrencies to "reduce as much of this unnecessary routing as possible in an attempt to avoid driver confusion and save funds". At the time, the state had nine triples.
Meanwhile across 'the pond', Wisconsin seems to have gone another way with concurrencies. ;)
The number of triples has probably doubled over here since 1982 and it may be even more than that for quads.
(That was a fun sentence.)
The 2020 Labor Day Mackinac Bridge Walk has been cancelled due to the pandemic. It's partly about concerns with maintaining social distancing, and partly that bridge toll revenues are obviously in significant decline and the funding isn't available to cover the $300,000 in expenses.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Mackinac_Bridge_annual_walk_2020_suspended_May_2020_690524_7.pdf
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 14, 2020, 11:35:05 PM
The 2020 Labor Day Mackinac Bridge Walk has been cancelled due to the pandemic. It's partly about concerns with maintaining social distancing, and partly that bridge toll revenues are obviously in significant decline and the funding isn't available to cover the $300,000 in expenses.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Mackinac_Bridge_annual_walk_2020_suspended_May_2020_690524_7.pdf
I'm glad they admitted that the cancellation was partially budget-related.
Quote from: ftballfan on May 17, 2020, 11:06:50 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 14, 2020, 11:35:05 PM
The 2020 Labor Day Mackinac Bridge Walk has been cancelled due to the pandemic. It's partly about concerns with maintaining social distancing, and partly that bridge toll revenues are obviously in significant decline and the funding isn't available to cover the $300,000 in expenses.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Mackinac_Bridge_annual_walk_2020_suspended_May_2020_690524_7.pdf
I'm glad they admitted that the cancellation was partially budget-related.
That's all right by me ... the Bridge Walk got screwed up a couple years ago courtesy of the Department of Homeland Security. I'm willing to bet that this tradition will never return.
Quote from: renegade on May 17, 2020, 02:55:29 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on May 17, 2020, 11:06:50 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 14, 2020, 11:35:05 PM
The 2020 Labor Day Mackinac Bridge Walk has been cancelled due to the pandemic. It's partly about concerns with maintaining social distancing, and partly that bridge toll revenues are obviously in significant decline and the funding isn't available to cover the $300,000 in expenses.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Mackinac_Bridge_annual_walk_2020_suspended_May_2020_690524_7.pdf
I'm glad they admitted that the cancellation was partially budget-related.
That's all right by me ... the Bridge Walk got screwed up a couple years ago courtesy of the Department of Homeland Security. I'm willing to bet that this tradition will never return.
What did Homeland Security do to screw up the bridge walk?
Quote from: zzcarp on May 19, 2020, 02:16:44 PM
Quote from: renegade on May 17, 2020, 02:55:29 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on May 17, 2020, 11:06:50 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 14, 2020, 11:35:05 PM
The 2020 Labor Day Mackinac Bridge Walk has been cancelled due to the pandemic. It's partly about concerns with maintaining social distancing, and partly that bridge toll revenues are obviously in significant decline and the funding isn't available to cover the $300,000 in expenses.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Mackinac_Bridge_annual_walk_2020_suspended_May_2020_690524_7.pdf
I'm glad they admitted that the cancellation was partially budget-related.
That's all right by me ... the Bridge Walk got screwed up a couple years ago courtesy of the Department of Homeland Security. I'm willing to bet that this tradition will never return.
What did Homeland Security do to screw up the bridge walk?
No vehicles on the bridge during the walk. You can walk in either direction now, but you'll need to arrange your own transportation back to where you started (no more school buses for the return trip) if you don't want to walk both ways, or if you start late, you won't make it across. All these changes were made in the past couple years in the interest of security
theater, under the
orders advice of the Department of Homeland Security.
The Edenville Dam has failed and the area is being evacuated. US-10 is closed in both directions at Sanford Lake.
I'm seeing reports that Smallwood dam also collapsed, and that Sanford dam's collapse is considered imminent
VS988
Quote from: Buck87 on May 19, 2020, 08:46:04 PM
I'm seeing reports that Smallwood dam also collapsed, and that Stanford dam's collapse is considered imminent
VS988
Sanford Dam is about to collapse. This would probably flood all of Sanford.
I noticed that the Tittabawassee River in Saginaw was very high and flooding in several areas. I followed the river up to Sanford when I found the problem.
Sanford dam has now failed as well. It and Edenville have been confirmed with pics or video.
So far I haven't seen such conformation on Smallwood, just reports on twitter.
VS988
Quote from: Buck87 on May 19, 2020, 09:03:41 PM
Sanford dam has now failed as well. It and Edenville have been confirmed with pics or video.
So far I haven't seen such conformation on Smallwood, just reports on twitter.
VS988
Its completely flooded in Saginaw County. The bridges are all closed. Water is over the top of the State Street bridge.
I'm thinking Smallwood is ok right now
It's being clarified this morning that while Sanford dam been breeched, it hasn't collapsed (but still could)
There's also a lot of people worrying about the big Dow chemical plant along the river in Midland.
VS988
Quote from: Buck87 on May 20, 2020, 07:16:19 AM
It's being clarified this morning that while Sanford dam been breeched, it hasn't collapsed (but still could)
There's also a lot of people worrying about the big Dow chemical plant along the river in Midland.
VS988
Yes that would be a major concern. The river goes right through the middle of the plant. I forgot to look at the Saginaw River yesterday but that collects all the water from several rivers in the area and flows north into the Saginaw Bay and out into Lake Huron. Last I looked at the Tittabawassee Road bridge last night it was only a few feet from going over that bridge.
As far as I know in Saginaw County both State Street and S. Center Road are closed at the river but it seems like M-46, Tittabawassee and Freeland are all open.
If I get out to the Tittabawassee River today I'll take some pictures.
I was driving from Saginaw to Freeland northbound on M-47. All bridges across the river are closed. I got a view of the Tittabawassee Road bridge but didn't get a picture. The Saginaw County Sheriff's Department are out and have the bridges blocked. The water level on the Tittabawassee Road bridge is at the bottom of the bridge deck and I saw further west of the bridge the road is flooded. I'm in Freeland right now and all along M-47 there was massive flooding all the way to the road.
Imerman Park is closed and flooded. I'm going to try to get across the river and use River Road going south I might need some luck doing that.
Gordonville Road is also closed. Saginaw Road is closed north of Bailey Bridge. The only bridge in Saginaw County across the river that I did not check is M-46 which may still be open.
The Curtis Road bridge over the Tittabawassee River in Edenville has been washed out.
https://twitter.com/CJPostal/status/1263096125994737664
Google street view from about the same spot.
https://goo.gl/maps/oLYjMcCyaZqFki7x8
Looks like there are no bridges open right now between M-61 and downtown Saginaw. However, as that wall of water moves downstream, I could see the downtown Saginaw bridges closed, leaving Zilwaukee as the only one open
Quote from: ftballfan on May 20, 2020, 10:18:37 AM
Looks like there are no bridges open right now between M-61 and downtown Saginaw. However, as that wall of water moves downstream, I could see the downtown Saginaw bridges closed, leaving Zilwaukee as the only one open
I'm in Saginaw and used the Zilwaukee Bridge to cross the Saginaw River. Nothing looked as bad as in Freeland and the part of Midland I was in at Zilwaukee. I used Hotchkiss Road and US-10 to come back to I-75. At Bailey Bridge the road is flooded until about 300 feet or so to Saginaw Road.
I'm sitting at Sheridan and Williamson on the SE side of Saginaw as I type this so I'll look at the river as I cross it to go back to the west side of Saginaw.
As far as Saginaw River crossings in Saginaw County go. All bridges are currently open. The water level is still several feet below the deck of the bridges. If any of these bridges close the Court Street Bridge would probably remain open it sits higher than the other bridges and isn't in any danger right now. Also the Zilwaukee Bridge would remain open since that bridge is 125 feet high and wouldn't be in any danger. The Bay City bridges could be effected as well.
In Midland the entire city is now under water and everything south to the Saginaw River is closed and flooded. I got a close up look at the bridge at Tittabawassee Road across the Tittabawassee River earlier and the water was up to the bridge deck and Tittabawassee was flooded to the west.
Closed as far north as Estey Road which is close to Edenville. M-61 is backed up with traffic since that's the first major road across going north that's open. Further down everything is now closed until M-57.
All Saginaw River crossings are still open.
Thomas Township which is part of metro Saginaw has no access to Saginaw Township or city unless you go to M-57 and come around. M-52 is closed at the Bad River at St. Charles as well. Fergus and Birch Run Roads are also closed at the river crossings. M-13 is closed at the Cass River but open at the Flint River.
This is at State Street in Saginaw Township. You can see the bridge deck between the trees. The water is just under that.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200520/d664f64b1463fd83c3e26b9ce81414c0.jpg)
Another pic of the State Street bridge.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200520/34784ee76e29128cedbb36ca260f2e79.jpg)
Does anyone know if the owner of that Pontiac Fiero museum was able to get his collection out of Sanford before the water came through?
He had a pretty unique collection of cars there. It would be a shame if they were all lost to the flood as they are obviously not replaceable.
Quote from: edwaleni on May 20, 2020, 10:55:26 PM
Does anyone know if the owner of that Pontiac Fiero museum was able to get his collection out of Sanford before the water came through?
He had a pretty unique collection of cars there. It would be a shame if they were all lost to the flood as they are obviously not replaceable.
I would guess the site is under water. It's less than 1/2 mile from the post office, and I saw a picture of that with water more than halfway up the entrance door.
Quote from: GaryV on May 21, 2020, 07:40:24 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 20, 2020, 10:55:26 PM
Does anyone know if the owner of that Pontiac Fiero museum was able to get his collection out of Sanford before the water came through?
He had a pretty unique collection of cars there. It would be a shame if they were all lost to the flood as they are obviously not replaceable.
I would guess the site is under water. It's less than 1/2 mile from the post office, and I saw a picture of that with water more than halfway up the entrance door.
Someone posted this on Reddit. No clue if any of the cars made it to higher ground beforehand.
(https://i.redd.it/d0i32phc4yz41.jpg)
Edit: Also made the front page of the Detroit News this morning. This shows a couple of the Fieros that didn't make it.
https://www.detroitnews.com/picture-gallery/news/local/michigan/2018/10/16/newspaper-snapshot-todays-front-page/1665115002/
The US-10 bridge over Sanford Lake was damaged due to the flooding. MDOT posted some pictures on their Twitter feed:
https://twitter.com/MichiganDOT/status/1263482681876262912
Some of the bridges in Saginaw County have reopened and gordonville Road in Midland County has reopened as well
I guess this answers the question on the Fieros. The owner had moved several of them to what he thought was higher ground and they were swept up in the current and many were flipped over.
The double sad part is that the owner was retiring and had contracted out a huge auction of all of the Fiero's for August. It was bringing in collectors from all over the country.
(https://s.aolcdn.com/os/ab/_cms/2020/05/21160139/Flooded-Pontiac-Fieros.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYoXJ_8WoAE5Rv8?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYoXIVUWoAExkyR?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYoXLGEWsAApSV6?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Has anyone seen any info from MDOT on any additional 2-lane mileage getting posted for a 60 or 65 mph speed limit? There's fairly extensive stretches in the western U.P. that could stand a bump, for example.
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 24, 2020, 05:50:49 PM
Has anyone seen any info from MDOT on any additional 2-lane mileage getting posted for a 60 or 65 mph speed limit? There's fairly extensive stretches in the western U.P. that could stand a bump, for example.
I haven't, but there are several stretches I've been on that could easily support 65:
US-10 in most of Lake County
M-50 between M-43 and Charlotte
M-52 between Stockbridge and I-96
M-55 between Lake City and Houghton Lake, as well as between M-157 and I-75
M-61 between M-115 and Harrison
M-66 between M-78 and I-96 (with brief drops in Nashville and Woodbury), as well as between M-46 and the Osceola/Missaukee line (with brief drops in Remus, Barryton, and Marion)
M-72 between M-66 and Grayling
M-79 between M-66 and Charlotte
M-115 between Mesick and US-10 (with a drop in the Cadillac area)
M-117 from Engadine to M-28 could use a boost to 65. When I've traveled through there, I could count the number of vehicles on that stretch with one hand.
The Seney Stretch could use a boost to 75.
Didn't the law authorizing the increase come with a mileage cap? MDOT would probably have to go back to the legislature to get any other highways bumped.
It looks like M-137's days are numbered (https://www.traverseticker.com/news/road-commission-prepares-for-next-phase-of-east-west-corridor-study-takeover-of-m-137-in-interlochen/). The GTCRC approved the resolution at its meeting according to minutes posted online, so now MDOT just has to sign off. If they follow GTCRC's time table, the transfer will be effective June 1, 2020.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on May 26, 2020, 10:38:51 AM
It looks like M-137's days are numbered (https://www.traverseticker.com/news/road-commission-prepares-for-next-phase-of-east-west-corridor-study-takeover-of-m-137-in-interlochen/). The GTCRC approved the resolution at its meeting according to minutes posted online, so now MDOT just has to sign off. If they follow GTCRC's time table, the transfer will be effective June 1, 2020.
I wonder if they are trying to eliminate spur routes like that.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2020, 10:58:05 AM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on May 26, 2020, 10:38:51 AM
It looks like M-137's days are numbered (https://www.traverseticker.com/news/road-commission-prepares-for-next-phase-of-east-west-corridor-study-takeover-of-m-137-in-interlochen/). The GTCRC approved the resolution at its meeting according to minutes posted online, so now MDOT just has to sign off. If they follow GTCRC's time table, the transfer will be effective June 1, 2020.
I wonder if they are trying to eliminate spur routes like that.
Maybe, but that kinda sucks. Good thing I have all the M-137 photos I need. And Interlochen National Music Camp has quite a bit of M-137 merchandise for sale as a fundraiser.
A quick question. Why does the M-150 designation along Rochester Road even exist? It literally doesn't connect to another state route apart from M-59 and ends at Tienken Road.
At one time M-150 went as far south as Eight Mile Rd. After I-75 came about, the section from 8 Mile to (nearly) Big Beaver was eliminated as it was a parallel route. Later the portion south of M-59 was relinquished to local control (mostly the city of Troy). Perhaps Rochester Hills and Rochester are not eager to accept control of the remaining short section.
Quote from: GaryV on June 27, 2020, 08:03:21 AM
At one time M-150 went as far south as Eight Mile Rd. After I-75 came about, the section from 8 Mile to (nearly) Big Beaver was eliminated as it was a parallel route. Later the portion south of M-59 was relinquished to local control (mostly the city of Troy). Perhaps Rochester Hills and Rochester are not eager to accept control of the remaining short section.
It use to only go to Romeo Road too. I don't know when or why it was extended north.
MDOT is conducting a survey regarding dynamic message signs. Go to the www.mi.gov/drive traffic website and click when "Notice: Take Electronic Message Sign Survey" appears on the banner.
Confirming that M-137 is no more (posts 544-546). I was on US-31 yesterday through the junction with M-137's northern terminus, and all the junction assemblies and the southbound confirmation assembly are gone.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-539372--,00.html
QuoteThe Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) will be resurfacing almost 4 miles of M-60 from M-311 to I-69. The $481,000 investment includes milling and resurfacing, pavement markings and corrugations.
Let's see if they finally sign the route junction with M-311.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 11, 2020, 03:17:33 PM
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-539372--,00.html
QuoteThe Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) will be resurfacing almost 4 miles of M-60 from M-311 to I-69. The $481,000 investment includes milling and resurfacing, pavement markings and corrugations.
Let's see if they finally sign the route junction with M-311.
Usually sign replacement isn't included in a milling and resurfacing contract, although I believe that area is due for sign replacements.
US-127 in Mason is emerging as a common location for bridge strikes. This time, it was the Columbia Rd overpass.
State highway officials said a trash container being hauled on a truck hit the bridge before another truck hit the trailer carrying the trash container, causing it to strike another part of the bridge.
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2020/10/14/mdot-northbound-u-s-127-closed-near-mason-after-bridge-damaged/3651309001/
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 14, 2020, 04:46:30 PM
US-127 in Mason is emerging as a common location for bridge strikes. This time, it was the Columbia Rd overpass.
State highway officials said a trash container being hauled on a truck hit the bridge before another truck hit the trailer carrying the trash container, causing it to strike another part of the bridge.
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2020/10/14/mdot-northbound-u-s-127-closed-near-mason-after-bridge-damaged/3651309001/
That's just a little ways east of another spot on Columbia Road that was mentioned last summer I think. The intersection at Waverly and the Grand River. My cousin's husband was killed in a similar accident on the Ohio Turnpike last year.
I noticed in Michigan there is a strange type of truck design not seen in other states. They look like a centipede, not an 18 wheeler but more like a 50 wheeler. The whole length of the trailer is all axles and tires. I don't know what these are or why they are not seen in Indiana or Illinois.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on November 15, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
I noticed in Michigan there is a strange type of truck design not seen in other states. They look like a centipede, not an 18 wheeler but more like a 50 wheeler. The whole length of the trailer is all axles and tires. I don't know what these are or why they are not seen in Indiana or Illinois.
I know what you're taking about. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I heard once that those trucks are designed to carry a bunch more weight (hence the need for more axles), and therefore are not allowed in most states except for Michigan. I'm not sure what they're used for, though. Gravel or paving materials, maybe?
Yep, 164k pound weight limit for trucks in MI. And they say (with a straight face) that it doesn't harm the roads because the weight is distributed. Yeah, sure.
The story is that it doesn't matter if you have 2 80,000 lb trucks or 1 160,000 lb truck in terms of road wear as long as you have enough axles to limit the weight of each axle. The 160,000 lb trucks have a LOT of axles to carry the weight, which is how they get away with it.
But in fact, the 160,000 lb trucks actually do 20% less damage to the roadway for the same amount of freight hauled. How?
Assume that one 80,000lb rig can haul 40,000 lbs of freight, and thus 2 80,000 lb rigs can thus haul 80,000 lbs of freight. But a single 160,000 lb truck requires one fewer driver and tractor, freeing up about 20,000 lbs for additional cargo. So your 160,000 lb rig can haul 100,000 lbs of freight.
Assume you have 200,000 lbs of freight to move. A single 160,000 lb truck can haul that in TWO loads, but it takes the 80,000 lb truck FIVE loads to haul that amount.
Or, put another way - you did FOUR 80,000 lb trucks worth of damage to the road with the two 160,000 lb truck trips, but hauled FIVE 80,000 lb truck trips worth of freight in the process.
20% less damage, and 60% fewer trucks to haul that freight. Sounds like a smart idea to me.
So it's just coincidence that Michigan roads are usually worse than the surrounding states? Yeah, yeah, funding, whatever. But our gas prices aren't any lower (usually higher than neighbors) - so where is that gas tax going?
There are several freeways in Michigan that are in dire need of upgrades.
Some of the one's that get on my nerves are US-23 between Flint and the Ohio border, I-94 between Ann Arbor and Benton Harbor, I-75 between Bay City and Standish, I-69 between Flint and Lansing, US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca. Almost every case is, the road needs to be widened. Every highway I mentioned here is four lanes in the stretches I mentioned.
And the thing is these highways have needed upgrades for at least 20 years.
Quote from: GaryV on November 17, 2020, 09:40:25 AM
So it's just coincidence that Michigan roads are usually worse than the surrounding states? Yeah, yeah, funding, whatever. But our gas prices aren't any lower (usually higher than neighbors) - so where is that gas tax going?
Michigan charges 6% sales tax on top of the fuel taxes. For a long time, that went straight into the general fund. I don't know if that's changed since. I don't have a great answer for the rest of your question, besides that Michigan has long underfunded MDOT and transportation in general.
Add I-96 between Grand Rapids and Howell to the 6-laning list. US-131 between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo isn't far off either.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 17, 2020, 04:50:09 PM
Michigan charges 6% sales tax on top of the fuel taxes. For a long time, that went straight into the general fund. I don't know if that's changed since.
The sales tax in Michigan was raised in 1994 from 4% to 6%, and at the time, the additional tax was dedicated to the School Aid Fund. Of the original 4% tax, 60% of the receipts are also dedicated to the School Aid Fund, 15% goes to revenue sharing with local governments on a per capita basis, another 21.3% goes to revenue sharing on a statutory allocation and the remaining 3.7% goes to the General Fund. That formula was set up in 1946. The sales tax on fuel is no different from the sales tax on another other item.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on November 15, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
I noticed in Michigan there is a strange type of truck design not seen in other states. They look like a centipede, not an 18 wheeler but more like a 50 wheeler. The whole length of the trailer is all axles and tires. I don't know what these are or why they are not seen in Indiana or Illinois.
They are locally called "gravel trains".
Quote from: aboges26 on December 13, 2020, 07:52:07 PM
Quote from: captkirk_4 on November 15, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
I noticed in Michigan there is a strange type of truck design not seen in other states. They look like a centipede, not an 18 wheeler but more like a 50 wheeler. The whole length of the trailer is all axles and tires. I don't know what these are or why they are not seen in Indiana or Illinois.
They are locally called "gravel trains".
They need the extra axles because they are hauling very heavy loads; the extra axles limit the weight any one axle exerts on the pavement. Michigan's 160,000 lb weight limit makes use of rigs like this possible.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 13, 2020, 09:58:05 PM
Quote from: aboges26 on December 13, 2020, 07:52:07 PM
Quote from: captkirk_4 on November 15, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
I noticed in Michigan there is a strange type of truck design not seen in other states. They look like a centipede, not an 18 wheeler but more like a 50 wheeler. The whole length of the trailer is all axles and tires. I don't know what these are or why they are not seen in Indiana or Illinois.
They are locally called "gravel trains".
They need the extra axles because they are hauling very heavy loads; the extra axles limit the weight any one axle exerts on the pavement. Michigan's 160,000 lb weight limit makes use of rigs like this possible.
Those 'all wheels' trucks ply Da YooPee, too. Does the Mackinac Bridge authority allow them to cross?
Mike
Quote from: pianocello on November 15, 2020, 02:46:24 PM
Quote from: captkirk_4 on November 15, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
I noticed in Michigan there is a strange type of truck design not seen in other states. They look like a centipede, not an 18 wheeler but more like a 50 wheeler. The whole length of the trailer is all axles and tires. I don't know what these are or why they are not seen in Indiana or Illinois.
I know what you're taking about. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I heard once that those trucks are designed to carry a bunch more weight (hence the need for more axles), and therefore are not allowed in most states except for Michigan. I'm not sure what they're used for, though. Gravel or paving materials, maybe?
I have an uncle who is from Sturgis, and I remember a long time ago telling me that a lot of big trucks heading to Michigan from points west would use the Sturgis/Howe exit from the Indiana Toll Road because it was the only road in Indiana that allowed them and that exit was just a few hundred feet from the state line.
QuoteDecember 16, 2020 -- The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) has launched an online survey for a segment of US-131 between M-11 (28th Street) and the S-curve (Market Avenue) in Grand Rapids and Wyoming as part of a Planning and Environmental Linkages (PEL) study. The PEL process represents a collaborative and integrated approach to transportation decision-making that considers environmental, community, and economic goals, as well as traffic issues, early in the transportation planning process.
MDOT news release with link to survey: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-547864--,00.html
I have a question for Michiganian roadgeeks: Can someone tell me why MDOT did not expand US-127 south of Jackson? From M-50 south to the US-12/US-127 intersection? I have traveled this road before, plus saw the property lines on Google Earth. I don't necessarily mean extend the freeway south. There's nowhere for the freeway to go, unless MDOT were to extend it down to Adrian & Ohio. That is a dead-end after I-73 was cancelled. What I mean is that MDOT has a wide right of way to expand US-127 to a 5-lane cross-section in that area. Especially with MIS down the road in Brooklyn, MI. See the link below for a satellite view. If you zoom in, you can see the MDOT property line marker.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0883111,-84.3638233,3a,38.4y,156.37h,89.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFtJR4O8XcWQjHbkLp89PNQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on December 26, 2020, 01:23:33 PM
I have a question for Michiganian roadgeeks: Can someone tell me why MDOT did not expand US-127 south of Jackson? From M-50 south to the US-12/US-127 intersection? I have traveled this road before, plus saw the property lines on Google Earth. I don't necessarily mean extend the freeway south. There's nowhere for the freeway to go, unless MDOT were to extend it down to Adrian & Ohio. That is a dead-end after I-73 was cancelled. What I mean is that MDOT has a wide right of way to expand US-127 to a 5-lane cross-section in that area. Especially with MIS down the road in Brooklyn, MI. See the link below for a satellite view. If you zoom in, you can see the MDOT property line marker.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0883111,-84.3638233,3a,38.4y,156.37h,89.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFtJR4O8XcWQjHbkLp89PNQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
South of Jackson there really isn't as much traffic as you'd think that uses US-127. The lowest VPD count for the entire state on US-127 is 1,253 near the state line. Any Toledo to Lansing or vice versa traffic is going to use US-23 and I-96.Even for Toledo to Jackson traffic and vice versa that traffic is going to use US-23 and I-94 instead of US-223 and US-127. It's shorter to take 127 and 223 but more time consuming. Jackson isn't really that big of a city either. It's about the 50th largest community in the state.
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on December 26, 2020, 01:23:33 PM
I have a question for Michiganian roadgeeks: Can someone tell me why MDOT did not expand US-127 south of Jackson?
Financial reasons. There were clear plans to build a freeway linking Jackson to Toledo via Adrian, but the funding didn't happen. Chris Bessert of MichiganHighways.org has more info: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys120-139.html#US-127
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 26, 2020, 04:39:38 PM
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on December 26, 2020, 01:23:33 PM
I have a question for Michiganian roadgeeks: Can someone tell me why MDOT did not expand US-127 south of Jackson?
Financial reasons. There were clear plans to build a freeway linking Jackson to Toledo via Adrian, but the funding didn't happen. Chris Bessert of MichiganHighways.org has more info: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys120-139.html#US-127
US-127 is pretty much a lonely highway in most areas south of US-223. I took it as a way to get to Cincinnati once and it was a pretty nice drive most of the way.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 26, 2020, 05:35:46 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 26, 2020, 04:39:38 PM
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on December 26, 2020, 01:23:33 PM
I have a question for Michiganian roadgeeks: Can someone tell me why MDOT did not expand US-127 south of Jackson?
Financial reasons. There were clear plans to build a freeway linking Jackson to Toledo via Adrian, but the funding didn't happen. Chris Bessert of MichiganHighways.org has more info: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys120-139.html#US-127
US-127 is pretty much a lonely highway in most areas south of US-223. I took it as a way to get to Cincinnati once and it was a pretty nice drive most of the way.
Thanks. That makes since, though if the freeway is cancelled and MDOT won't widen the road, they might as well sell the right of way to locals in the area. Instead of hanging on to 100's of feet of land for years.
Quote from: ftballfan on April 27, 2020, 06:04:50 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on April 27, 2020, 03:38:14 PM
MDOT is taking public comment (https://www.michigan.gov/som/0,4669,7-192-47796-527149--,00.html) next month on transferring M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula to the Grand Traverse County Road Commission. Such a transfer would mean the removal of M-37 as a Pure Michigan Byway because county roads are ineligible for inclusion in the program, and the department cannot decommission that byway designation without a 30-day public comment period. The GTRC and City of Traverse City have supported the transfer, but Peninsula Township has opposed it.
If MDOT were to transfer M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula to Grand Traverse County, it would likely lead to the removal of one of very few three-way concurrencies in Michigan (US-31/M-37/M-72 run concurrent along West Grand Traverse Bay for two miles)
They might remove M-37 from the triple concurrency, but MDOT recently issued a contract letting (item #036 on 10/02/2020) for sign replacement on (among other routes) the stretch of US-31/M-37 between its southern split at Chums Corner and its northern junction with M-72 in Traverse City, and the plans show retention of the duplex along that stretch. One would think that if M-37 would also be removed there, MDOT might wait until the issue of eliminating M-37 on Old Mission Peninsula was decided. So we might instead end up with a useless duplex. Or MDOT's left hand (sign replacement) doesn't know what its right hand (route elimination) is doing and they end up removing M-37 shields from the duplex shortly after installing them.
This YouTube channel has documented the work north of Midland to restore the area (including bridges, dams, and lakes) following the flooding in May 2020.
https://www.youtube.com/c/JordanMowbray
For this upcoming weekend's Webinar presentation, we'll be taking a look at the important freeways and interstates across northern & western Michigan, including the Grand Rapids, Lansing, Flint, and Lansing metropolitan areas. Coverage will begin on Saturday (1/23) at 6 PM ET and will feature live contributions from members of this forum; we hope to see you there!
196 is a lot longer than either 496 or 675.
As you all know, the Muskegon-to-Grand Rapids route was originally part of Interstate 196, with 96 heading west and south from Grand Rapids-via-Holland to meet Interstate 94. 96 and 196 were swapped in the 1960's. I think that 196, at 80.594 miles in length, is too long for a 3-digit Interstate Highway, especially one that has an odd first digit. Maybe 196 should have been designated Interstate 67, as was requested by then-Michigan state highway commissioner (and AASHO president) John C. Mackie in 1963: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys180-199.html#I-196.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 20, 2021, 02:37:14 PM
As you all know, the Muskegon-to-Grand Rapids route was originally part of Interstate 196, with 96 heading west and south from Grand Rapids-via-Holland to meet Interstate 94. 96 and 196 were swapped in the 1960's. I think that 196, at 80.594 miles in length, is too long for a 3-digit Interstate Highway, especially one that has an odd first digit. Maybe 196 should have been designated Interstate 67, as was requested by then-Michigan state highway commissioner (and AASHO president) John C. Mackie in 1963: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys180-199.html#I-196.
What would you suggest the maximum length of a three-digit Insterstate be? There's no way anyone would suggest a loop greater than 80 miles (such as Cincinnati's I-275) get a two-digit number.
Quote from: rawmustard on January 20, 2021, 03:56:49 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 20, 2021, 02:37:14 PM
As you all know, the Muskegon-to-Grand Rapids route was originally part of Interstate 196, with 96 heading west and south from Grand Rapids-via-Holland to meet Interstate 94. 96 and 196 were swapped in the 1960's. I think that 196, at 80.594 miles in length, is too long for a 3-digit Interstate Highway, especially one that has an odd first digit. Maybe 196 should have been designated Interstate 67, as was requested by then-Michigan state highway commissioner (and AASHO president) John C. Mackie in 1963: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys180-199.html#I-196.
What would you suggest the maximum length of a three-digit Insterstate be? There's no way anyone would suggest a loop greater than 80 miles (such as Cincinnati's I-275) get a two-digit number.
Kind of like the A10 autobahn in Germany?
Mike
What about 476 PA, 380 IA, etc.?
Since when is there a limit on how long a 3-di can be?
A DDI interchange is coming to 8 Mile/Telegraph Rd interchange in Detroit...
QuoteOne of the biggest projects slated for 2021 will be the reconstruction of the 50-year of Telegraph and 8 Mile interchange. There are plans to make the interchange into a safer diverging diamond.There are also plans for reconstruction of Telegraph from Grand River Avenue to just north of 8 Mile Road."We are going to pull everything out, go down to the sand, and rebuild Telegraph from Grand River to 8 Mile," said Diane Cross with the Michigan Department of Transportation.Cross says Telegraph will have two lanes open at all times during the construction period, however the construction will close down ramps.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/mdot-planning-busy-2021-construction-season
Quote from: afguy on January 21, 2021, 08:16:23 PM
A DDI interchange is coming to 8 Mile/Telegraph Rd interchange in Detroit...
QuoteOne of the biggest projects slated for 2021 will be the reconstruction of the 50-year of Telegraph and 8 Mile interchange. There are plans to make the interchange into a safer diverging diamond.There are also plans for reconstruction of Telegraph from Grand River Avenue to just north of 8 Mile Road."We are going to pull everything out, go down to the sand, and rebuild Telegraph from Grand River to 8 Mile," said Diane Cross with the Michigan Department of Transportation.Cross says Telegraph will have two lanes open at all times during the construction period, however the construction will close down ramps.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/mdot-planning-busy-2021-construction-season
Get ready for massive traffic jams on the Southfield Freeway.
Quote from: afguy on January 21, 2021, 08:16:23 PM
A DDI interchange is coming to 8 Mile/Telegraph Rd interchange in Detroit...
QuoteOne of the biggest projects slated for 2021 will be the reconstruction of the 50-year of Telegraph and 8 Mile interchange. There are plans to make the interchange into a safer diverging diamond.There are also plans for reconstruction of Telegraph from Grand River Avenue to just north of 8 Mile Road."We are going to pull everything out, go down to the sand, and rebuild Telegraph from Grand River to 8 Mile," said Diane Cross with the Michigan Department of Transportation.Cross says Telegraph will have two lanes open at all times during the construction period, however the construction will close down ramps.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/mdot-planning-busy-2021-construction-season
That's interesting, because MDOT's Five-Year 2021-2025 plan shows only "healer sealer" maintenance is scheduled for this year on the 8 Mile Road bridges over Telegraph Road, while this story indicates removal of the bridges and construction of a DDI. Can't say I'm thrilled about another set of traffic signals in one of the corridors, but I agree the current mutated cloverleaf needs to go. Can't wait to see which road will have the exit ramps with no traffic signals.
Other upcoming metro Detroit freeway projects noted in the story:
- Reconstruction of I-275 from south of I-94 to north of 5 Mile Road. This has been needed for years; the road has had asphalt resurfacing but there are many killer potholes from the failing original concrete underneath. I can't believe this all can be done in one year. Work between Ford Road (M-153) and 5 Mile was scheduled for 2020 per previous Five-Year plans but that didn't happen. Work between I-94 and Ford Road was previously scheduled for two years later but maybe that is being accelerated.
- Reconstruction of I-696 between I-275 and Orchard Lake Road. The Five-Year plan says it's a longer stretch, between I-275 and Lahser Road, so we'll see. Previous Five-Year plans had this scheduled for 2023; apparently it's been accelerated. Reconstruction of of I-696 between Lahser Road and Dequindre Road now shows scheduled for 2023.
- Reconstruction of I-96 between I-275 and east of Kent Lake Road. I think this will be the Big One with regards to traffic jams. MDOT announced plans a few years ago to implement a part-time flex-lane system along this stretch, similar to what's on US-23 north of Ann Arbor. I think this also has been accelerated; it originally wasn't scheduled to happen for at least a few more years. I was hoping that with this project now being funded with Rebuilding Michigan bond funds it would be expanded to add a permanent fourth lane in each direction, but apparently that isn't happening and the flex-lane system is still on tap.
The new Five-Year plan shows reconstruction of M-14 between Newburgh and Sheldon roads has been pushed back to 2023. This received asphalt resurfacing a few years ago, which immediately started falling apart because of the failing concrete underneath.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 24, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
Quote from: afguy on January 21, 2021, 08:16:23 PM
A DDI interchange is coming to 8 Mile/Telegraph Rd interchange in Detroit...
QuoteOne of the biggest projects slated for 2021 will be the reconstruction of the 50-year of Telegraph and 8 Mile interchange. There are plans to make the interchange into a safer diverging diamond.There are also plans for reconstruction of Telegraph from Grand River Avenue to just north of 8 Mile Road."We are going to pull everything out, go down to the sand, and rebuild Telegraph from Grand River to 8 Mile," said Diane Cross with the Michigan Department of Transportation.Cross says Telegraph will have two lanes open at all times during the construction period, however the construction will close down ramps.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/mdot-planning-busy-2021-construction-season
That's interesting, because MDOT's Five-Year 2021-2025 plan shows only "healer sealer" maintenance is scheduled for this year on the 8 Mile Road bridges over Telegraph Road, while this story indicates removal of the bridges and construction of a DDI. Can't say I'm thrilled about another set of traffic signals in one of the corridors, but I agree the current mutated cloverleaf needs to go. Can't wait to see which road will have the exit ramps with no traffic signals.
Other upcoming metro Detroit freeway projects noted in the story:
- Reconstruction of I-275 from south of I-94 to north of 5 Mile Road. This has been needed for years; the road has had asphalt resurfacing but there are many killer potholes from the failing original concrete underneath. I can't believe this all can be done in one year. Work between Ford Road (M-153) and 5 Mile was scheduled for 2020 per previous Five-Year plans but that didn't happen. Work between I-94 and Ford Road was previously scheduled for two years later but maybe that is being accelerated.
- Reconstruction of I-696 between I-275 and Orchard Lake Road. The Five-Year plan says it's a longer stretch, between I-275 and Lahser Road, so we'll see. Previous Five-Year plans had this scheduled for 2023; apparently it's been accelerated. Reconstruction of of I-696 between Lahser Road and Dequindre Road now shows scheduled for 2023.
- Reconstruction of I-96 between I-275 and east of Kent Lake Road. I think this will be the Big One with regards to traffic jams. MDOT announced plans a few years ago to implement a part-time flex-lane system along this stretch, similar to what's on US-23 north of Ann Arbor. I think this also has been accelerated; it originally wasn't scheduled to happen for at least a few more years. I was hoping that with this project now being funded with Rebuilding Michigan bond funds it would be expanded to add a permanent fourth lane in each direction, but apparently that isn't happening and the flex-lane system is still on tap.
The new Five-Year plan shows reconstruction of M-14 between Newburgh and Sheldon roads has been pushed back to 2023. This received asphalt resurfacing a few years ago, which immediately started falling apart because of the failing concrete underneath.
The three best ways to get between Metro Airport and Birmingham / Bloomfield Hills are I 94 to Telegraph, or I-94 to the Southfield, or I-275 to I-696 to Telegraph / Lahser / Evergreen.
With two of these three routes affected by construction, and many of the people who would have taken Telegraph choosing the Southfield, it's going to be tough getting to / from the airport if you live in the northwest suburbs.
https://www.wlen.com/2021/01/20/virtual-public-meeting-scheduled-for-us-127-us-223-project/
This is from earlier in the month, but I wanted to add this here as well. I cross-posted this to the I-73 thread. US-127 and US-223 are being repaired/rebuilt. The major item from the article: The US-127/US-223 project involves rebuilding approximately 3.9 miles of US-127 from the north village limit of Addison north to US-12 and rebuilding approximately 11.1 miles of US-223 from US-127 southeast to Stoddard Road in Lenawee County. The proposed work will include building a roundabout at the US-127/US-223 intersection, drainage improvements, geometric upgrades, and signal modernization.
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on February 23, 2021, 02:01:18 PM
https://www.wlen.com/2021/01/20/virtual-public-meeting-scheduled-for-us-127-us-223-project/
This is from earlier in the month, but I wanted to add this here as well. I cross-posted this to the I-73 thread. US-127 and US-223 are being repaired/rebuilt. The major item from the article: The US-127/US-223 project involves rebuilding approximately 3.9 miles of US-127 from the north village limit of Addison north to US-12 and rebuilding approximately 11.1 miles of US-223 from US-127 southeast to Stoddard Road in Lenawee County. The proposed work will include building a roundabout at the US-127/US-223 intersection, drainage improvements, geometric upgrades, and signal modernization.
That'll fix US-223 and US-127 acting as one highway there.
Continued baby steps to rid US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca of direct cross traffic, starting next week and slated for a mid-May completion:
The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) is investing about $2 million to perform safety improvements on US-127 at the French Road, Mead Road, Marshal Road, Hyde Road, and Maple Rapids Road intersections in Clinton County.
Improvements will consist of indirect left turns with loons (Michigan Lefts), extending concrete left-turn lanes to crossroads, and building concrete right-turn lanes.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-554199--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-554199--,00.html)
Loons? The state is saying they will do left turns using waterfowl that get their portraits on Canadian money?
Since when were Michigan Lefts called "loons"?
Quote from: GaryV on March 11, 2021, 04:30:37 PM
Loons? The state is saying they will do left turns using waterfowl that get their portraits on Canadian money?
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2021, 05:32:04 PM
Since when were Michigan Lefts called "loons"?
A loon is the expanded paved apron that allows large vehicles such as semi-trailer trucks and RVs to make a U-turn on a divided highway. US-127 has a fairly narrow median in this area so the additional space is needed.
Here's a loon on southbound M-24 in Oakland County: https://goo.gl/maps/Xx9QipxJwcUaGa2N7
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 11, 2021, 06:02:45 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 11, 2021, 04:30:37 PM
Loons? The state is saying they will do left turns using waterfowl that get their portraits on Canadian money?
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2021, 05:32:04 PM
Since when were Michigan Lefts called "loons"?
A loon is the expanded paved apron that allows large vehicles such as semi-trailer trucks and RVs to make a U-turn on a divided highway. US-127 has a fairly narrow median in this area so the additional space is needed.
Here's a loon on southbound M-24 in Oakland County: https://goo.gl/maps/Xx9QipxJwcUaGa2N7
Thank you for the explanation. I had never heard that usage before.
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 11, 2021, 04:21:21 PM
Continued baby steps to rid US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca of direct cross traffic, starting next week and slated for a mid-May completion:
The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) is investing about $2 million to perform safety improvements on US-127 at the French Road, Mead Road, Marshal Road, Hyde Road, and Maple Rapids Road intersections in Clinton County.
Improvements will consist of indirect left turns with loons (Michigan Lefts), extending concrete left-turn lanes to crossroads, and building concrete right-turn lanes.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-554199--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-554199--,00.html)
Is this any different to the treatment they performed at French Rd and Hyde Rd a couple years back? They already closed the median and added the "loons" (this is the first I've heard that one, too) at those two intersections, so I would think this project is just doing the same thing to the other three.
Quote from: pianocello on March 11, 2021, 10:01:34 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 11, 2021, 04:21:21 PM
Continued baby steps to rid US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca of direct cross traffic, starting next week and slated for a mid-May completion:
The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) is investing about $2 million to perform safety improvements on US-127 at the French Road, Mead Road, Marshal Road, Hyde Road, and Maple Rapids Road intersections in Clinton County.
Improvements will consist of indirect left turns with loons (Michigan Lefts), extending concrete left-turn lanes to crossroads, and building concrete right-turn lanes.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-554199--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-554199--,00.html)
Is this any different to the treatment they performed at French Rd and Hyde Rd a couple years back? They already closed the median and added the "loons" (this is the first I've heard that one, too) at those two intersections, so I would think this project is just doing the same thing to the other three.
Sure sounds like the same thing. I don't know why the locations already done were mentioned, unless they're all in one multi-year project package.
I drove US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns just a couple weeks ago, and I was surprised at the number of direct crossroad intersections still remaining. After this project is finished there are still many more intersections to be modified.
The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) has opened the M-30 temporary bridge over the Tobacco River in Gladwin County today, following a 10-month closure of the M-30 corridor due to several locations of bridge damage following flooding and infrastructure failures in May 2020.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-554246--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-554246--,00.html)
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 11, 2021, 04:21:21 PM
Continued baby steps to rid US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca of direct cross traffic, starting next week and slated for a mid-May completion:
The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) is investing about $2 million to perform safety improvements on US-127 at the French Road, Mead Road, Marshal Road, Hyde Road, and Maple Rapids Road intersections in Clinton County.
Improvements will consist of indirect left turns with loons (Michigan Lefts), extending concrete left-turn lanes to crossroads, and building concrete right-turn lanes.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-554199--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-554199--,00.html)
Does this mean that MDOT is not going to go ahead with plans to convert this to a freeway?
Doesn't look like it, not right now. Looks more like they are trying to upgrade the road to "controlled access", not limited access. Close off the cross roads, consolidate driveways, Michigan Lefts and RIRO intersections seem to be what they are trying to due. Maybe in a decade when more money can be had the full freeway upgrade may happen.
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on March 12, 2021, 01:20:11 PM
Doesn't look like it, not right now. Looks more like they are trying to upgrade the road to "controlled access", not limited access. Close off the cross roads, consolidate driveways, Michigan Lefts and RIRO intersections seem to be what they are trying to due. Maybe in a decade when more money can be had the full freeway upgrade may happen.
"Controlled access" is the term for making a road a full-fledged freeway, whereas "limited access" eliminates most driveways but still allows for access with at-grade intersections. On my last trip up that way, I noticed more properties are being abandoned (likely sold to MDOT), but there are still a few that still need to be sold. I've also not yet seen just how the routing will be at Uncle John's, which is the last major property along the route.
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 14, 2020, 04:46:30 PM
US-127 in Mason is emerging as a common location for bridge strikes. This time, it was the Columbia Rd overpass.
State highway officials said a trash container being hauled on a truck hit the bridge before another truck hit the trailer carrying the trash container, causing it to strike another part of the bridge.
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2020/10/14/mdot-northbound-u-s-127-closed-near-mason-after-bridge-damaged/3651309001/
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.EmLf3MvhsXYTVrWAIpd6MAHaEa%26pid%3DApi&f=1
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 12, 2021, 02:39:04 AM
Does this mean that MDOT is not going to go ahead with plans to convert this to a freeway?
MDOT is far, far away from anything that smells like a highway expansion/upgrade outside of metro Detroit, with a few exceptions where traffic levels or roadway conditions are forcing their hand (US-23 flex lane, I-94 in Kalamazoo & Jackson, US-31/I-94 in Benton Harbor, etc). They are pretty well focused on rebuilding what's crumbling and getting the existing stuff in good condition.
It looked like at one point MDOT was trying to finish the freeway buildout to Ithaca after completing the St. Johns bypass in the late '90s, and the interchange at M-57 in the early 00's was a big step towards it, removing a horribly accident-prone stoplight.
But any funding to take it further has been minimal - thus the series of "baby steps" to remove cross traffic and limit access. When MDOT gets the opportunity to acquire adjacent property and has the funds, they do it. But otherwise it's keeping the status quo as long as it's economically feasible to do so.
US-127 is a busy road, but not THAT busy - AADT counts of ~20,000 vpd are not egregious and well within the capacity limits of a 4-lane controlled-access highway with no stoplights (not counting the seldom-used RR tracks just north of M-57). It's comparable to US-31 in northern Indiana (which still does have stoplights).
Basically, as long as the roadway will still accept concrete joint patching and asphalt overlays without completely disintegrating after the 1st winter's freeze/thaw cycle, MDOT will keep maintaining the existing surface and do small things to address safety. Unlike other stretches of Michigan freeway (I-94, I-69, I-75), US-127 doesn't have heavy truck traffic - which helps that effort.
Once MDOT is forced to perform a complete rebuild of either the northbound or southbound roadways, that's when you'll see the big push to convert it to freeway. But if they can get another 20 years out of the existing roadway and put that funding for more pressing needs, they'll do it.
I would love for US 127 to be completely freeway between Lansing and Interstate 75 near Grayling. Of course, one's fantasies often hit a brick wall when something called "reality" rears its ugly head. That's why I'm grateful that the Forum has a Fictional Highways board, and I am far from the only one grateful for that.
Making US-127 into a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca is pretty low priority. US-127 falls mostly within the Bay and University regions of MDOT and they have higher priority corridors to take care of before making this stretch of US-127 into a freeway. The bottom line is that US-127 flows fine as is and doesn't really need any upgrades. It will never be an Interstate so that can be tossed aside as well.
Quote from: rawmustard on March 12, 2021, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on March 12, 2021, 01:20:11 PM
Doesn't look like it, not right now. Looks more like they are trying to upgrade the road to "controlled access", not limited access. Close off the cross roads, consolidate driveways, Michigan Lefts and RIRO intersections seem to be what they are trying to due. Maybe in a decade when more money can be had the full freeway upgrade may happen.
"Controlled access" is the term for making a road a full-fledged freeway, whereas "limited access" eliminates most driveways but still allows for access with at-grade intersections. On my last trip up that way, I noticed more properties are being abandoned (likely sold to MDOT), but there are still a few that still need to be sold. I've also not yet seen just how the routing will be at Uncle John's, which is the last major property along the route.
Not my term. MDOT described what they are working on between St. John's and Ithaca as "controlled access". A high-speed divided highway with some interchanges, but still driveway access and cross roads here and there. I would need to find the article. This was a news item from about ten years ago in the Lansing paper. Or maybe Gratiot county.
I've been looking at Michigan freeways a bit on GSV recently, and noticed some sort of inconsistency in exit tab size. On the interchange with US 131 from I-196, the WB direction (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9726792,-85.6753764,3a,75y,278.07h,84.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG_WH9kB6mP8r7dktNMC6iQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) have tabbed exit numbers, while the EB direction (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9732912,-85.680757,3a,75y,97h,88.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3syixeKQaK3qzzot5dYwoQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) have full length exit numbers. Sometimes, both exit tab styles are used at the same interchange, like this example between I-75 NB and Baldwin Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7054915,-83.2987702,3a,75y,274.61h,90.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfoBp-woq2X5MPVseX6pa3Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). How does MDOT decide when to use a full length exit tab vs a side tab?
Why was M-120 between Indiana and Ohio decommissioned? It leaves an obvious gap in a 3-state route.
Quote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 06:32:39 AM
Why was M-120 between Indiana and Ohio decommissioned? It leaves an obvious gap in a 3-state route.
Transferred to local control in 1961.
Special meeting May 18 to discuss Annual Mackinac Bridge Walk
QuoteThe Mackinac Bridge Authority (MBA) will meet in an online special session at 9:00 a.m. Tuesday, May 18, to discuss the Annual Bridge Walk currently scheduled for Labor Day.
The meeting will be conducted on the Microsoft Teams platform, and will be available for public viewing through Livestream at https://livestream.com/mdot/mbameeting05182021 or YouTube. This meeting will be conducted in a virtual format under provisions of Mackinac County's resolution and extension of a Local State of Emergency.
"Last year the Mackinac Bridge Authority made the very difficult decision to cancel the Annual Bridge Walk due to COVID-19," said Authority Board Chairman Patrick "Shorty" Gleason. "While we all hope this year's walk can proceed as usual, we need to consider the remaining uncertainty about what effect the pandemic could have on our event that is now just a few months away."
Comments can be submitted online prior to and during the meeting; comments received before 3:00 p.m. Monday will be provided to the board prior to the meeting.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Special_meeting_May_18_to_discuss_Annual_Bridge_Walk_725305_7.pdf
MDOT has I-75 from Square Lake to 8 Mile closed and they have Woodward as the detour.
Quote from: renegade on March 30, 2021, 05:01:01 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 06:32:39 AM
Why was M-120 between Indiana and Ohio decommissioned? It leaves an obvious gap in a 3-state route.
Transferred to local control in 1961.
That doesn't explain why it was removed.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 10, 2021, 11:26:12 PM
MDOT has I-75 from Square Lake to 8 Mile closed and they have Woodward as the detour.
Yep, to take down the 11 Mile Rd bridge. They had to close multiple miles of freeway just so they could have a detour route that still used highways.
At the same time, I-275 is down to 1 lane and the Southfield Freeway is closed in Dearborn. Not a good time to try to get from Ohio to the northern part of metro Detroit.
And, the construction on 12 Mile Rd (wb) near I-75 was not completed, so both 11 Mile and 12 Mile are out of commission to get from Madison Heights to Royal Oak.
Quote from: GaryV on July 11, 2021, 06:54:02 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 10, 2021, 11:26:12 PM
MDOT has I-75 from Square Lake to 8 Mile closed and they have Woodward as the detour.
Yep, to take down the 11 Mile Rd bridge. They had to close multiple miles of freeway just so they could have a detour route that still used highways.
At the same time, I-275 is down to 1 lane and the Southfield Freeway is closed in Dearborn. Not a good time to try to get from Ohio to the northern part of metro Detroit.
And, the construction on 12 Mile Rd (wb) near I-75 was not completed, so both 11 Mile and 12 Mile are out of commission to get from Madison Heights to Royal Oak.
True as there isn't another state highway that could be used south of there until you are past 11 Mile so closing it up to Square Lake and having Woodward as the detour was the best case. Square Lake in that area is part of Business I-75 and 8 Mile is M-102 and Woodward of course is M-1 so they managed to use all state highways as a detour.
You're right on that. Getting from Ohio to the northern suburbs would be difficult with all the closures. I'm not sure if the regular route consists of just using I-75 but I put in a route from Toledo to Rochester Hills and it tells me to take I-75 to I-275 to I-696 to Telegraph to Square Lake back to I-75. As of right now Sunday morning at 9:45 it looks like I-275 is clear. I-75 will be back open at 5:00 tomorrow morning btw.
Also it looks like the service drives north of I-696 are still open with just the freeway being closed but I'm not sure on that I'm going by what it looks like on the cam at 696 and 75.
In Saginaw County southbound I-675 is closed from Tittabawassee at exit 6 to Davenport and Michigan at exit 3..
With the ongoing construction on I-75 between mile markers 148 and 150 this has the makings of being a mess. It's been going on for a couple of weeks and hopefully the I-675 construction is over with soon.
I don't know if I'd advise it but going southbound if you can get off at exit 160 which is M-84 and go southbound to W. Genesee make a left and take Genesee until after it turns into Dixie Highway back to I-75 at the Bridgeport exit you would miss the entirety of the construction zone and the I-675 closure. I would be against advising it because W. Genesee is a city street before becoming E. Genesee and Saginaw's historical main drag.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 04:06:36 PM
In Saginaw County southbound I-675 is closed from Tittabawassee at exit 6 to Davenport and Michigan at exit 3..
With the ongoing construction on I-75 between mile markers 148 and 150 this has the makings of being a mess. It's been going on for a couple of weeks and hopefully the I-675 construction is over with soon.
I don't know if I'd advise it but going southbound if you can get off at exit 160 which is M-84 and go southbound to W. Genesee make a left and take Genesee until after it turns into Dixie Highway back to I-75 at the Bridgeport exit you would miss the entirety of the construction zone and the I-675 closure. I would be against advising it because W. Genesee is a city street before becoming E. Genesee and Saginaw's historical main drag.
I drive from Saginaw to Flint a few times a week. Do you know what happened to the pavement on I-75 SB south of I-475 (exit 125)? It felt like I was going over speed bumps a few nights ago and I don't recall it being like that before. It seemed to affect all the lanes.
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 12, 2021, 09:30:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 04:06:36 PM
In Saginaw County southbound I-675 is closed from Tittabawassee at exit 6 to Davenport and Michigan at exit 3..
With the ongoing construction on I-75 between mile markers 148 and 150 this has the makings of being a mess. It's been going on for a couple of weeks and hopefully the I-675 construction is over with soon.
I don't know if I'd advise it but going southbound if you can get off at exit 160 which is M-84 and go southbound to W. Genesee make a left and take Genesee until after it turns into Dixie Highway back to I-75 at the Bridgeport exit you would miss the entirety of the construction zone and the I-675 closure. I would be against advising it because W. Genesee is a city street before becoming E. Genesee and Saginaw's historical main drag.
I drive from Saginaw to Flint a few times a week. Do you know what happened to the pavement on I-75 SB south of I-475 (exit 125)? It felt like I was going over speed bumps a few nights ago and I don't recall it being like that before. It seemed to affect all the lanes.
That's where it goes from four lanes down to three it's been in pretty bad shape for quite a few years now but I have noticed that it's gotten worse. I've been wondering when it'll be on MDOT's radar to repave and possibly widen it in conjunction with building a new overpass at I-69.
I know that the pavement north of I-475 was repaved last in 2002 and seems to still be in good shape. That was when the project to widen it between Saginaw and Flint started. I know the pavement south of I-475 is older than the pavement north of it though and speaking of I-475 thankfully they repaved that recently on the north end.
I-75 remains closed in both directions this morning near Exit 69 in Troy after a tanker truck fire, pending a damage assessment. The truck driver escaped with only minor injuries.
Link to Troy PD's Twitter feed showing a dashcam video of the accident:
https://twitter.com/TroyMI_Police/status/1414708029514293252
Quote from: catch22 on July 13, 2021, 07:54:35 AM
I-75 remains closed in both directions this morning near Exit 69 in Troy after a tanker truck fire, pending a damage assessment. The truck driver escaped with only minor injuries.
Brand new bridge... brand new roadway... both potentially trashed.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 13, 2021, 10:04:48 AM
Quote from: catch22 on July 13, 2021, 07:54:35 AM
I-75 remains closed in both directions this morning near Exit 69 in Troy after a tanker truck fire, pending a damage assessment. The truck driver escaped with only minor injuries.
Brand new bridge... brand new roadway... both potentially trashed.
All because of a truck driver that was driving too fast around a curve, I can tell he was driving too fast.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 13, 2021, 10:04:48 AM
Quote from: catch22 on July 13, 2021, 07:54:35 AM
I-75 remains closed in both directions this morning near Exit 69 in Troy after a tanker truck fire, pending a damage assessment. The truck driver escaped with only minor injuries.
Brand new bridge... brand new roadway... both potentially trashed.
All because of a truck driver that was driving too fast around a curve, I can tell he was driving too fast.
What's interesting is that the I-75 rebuild between M-102 and the Square Lake Road interchange is being done in concrete but the new freeway surface around the Big Beaver Road (exit 69) curve is asphalt. I wonder if it's that high-friction stuff that's supposed to provide extra traction to help avoid incidents like this. (Understanding it could do only so much with a speeding fully-loaded truck.)
92 km/h (56 MPH) is far below speeding range. The driver is fortunate to have escaped with only minor injuries. Wonder what it was that distracted him?
^ That's what it looked like to me. Why did he drift left? (If Crash_It was driving that car he cut off, we'd have a wonderful video!)
Quote from: GaryV on July 13, 2021, 02:53:12 PM
^ That's what it looked like to me. Why did he drift left? (If Crash_It was driving that car he cut off, we'd have a wonderful video!)
Probably on the phone. I hope the investigation subpoenas his phone logs from his provider.
I-94 closed for flooding. I-75 says hold my beer.
A driver behind the semi said that the semi hit the median, then the driver jumped out and started running, the semi and it flipped over the median and exploded. The driver did get out ok but there was over 15,000 gallons of fuel in that semi. I didn't see in the video where the driver jumped out.
I-75 update: One lane now open southbound, one lane will open northbound later today. Two left lanes in each direction plus the center median will be rebuilt first, then the two right lanes in each direction will be rebuilt. Apparently the incident did not happen near the bridges over Big Beaver Road and they are unharmed.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-563620--,00.html
Quote
July 13, 2021 -- The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) announced that the right lane of southbound I-75 has opened at Big Beaver Road in the city of Troy. All lanes of the freeway have been closed due to a tanker crash that occurred Monday, July 12.
The reopening of the right lane will allow traffic to move on the freeway while crews rebuild the damaged center and left lanes, along with the barrier wall that separates both directions of traffic. In order to minimize expected delays, the entrance ramps to southbound I-75 will remain closed at Crooks and Big Beaver roads until the repair work is completed.
On northbound I-75, crews will reopen the right lane during the afternoon hours on Wednesday, July 14. This will allow for the rebuilding of the center and left lanes that were also significantly damaged during the crash. To minimize expected delays, crews will keep the entrance ramps at 14 Mile and Rochester roads closed during repairs.
Once the repairs to the left and center lanes are complete, crews will then begin rebuilding the right lanes in each direction.
Detroit News reported today that it will take 6 weeks and $1.5M to fix I-75.
Quote from: GaryV on July 17, 2021, 01:21:51 PM
Detroit News reported today that it will take 6 weeks and $1.5M to fix I-75.
Damn 6 weeks that they could have been working on another project and $1.5 million they could have spent on another project.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 17, 2021, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 17, 2021, 01:21:51 PM
Detroit News reported today that it will take 6 weeks and $1.5M to fix I-75.
Damn 6 weeks that they could have been working on another project and $1.5 million they could have spent on another project.
I'm sure they'll get the money from an insurance company somewhere. But insurance can't give you back time.
Quote from: GaryV on July 17, 2021, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 17, 2021, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 17, 2021, 01:21:51 PM
Detroit News reported today that it will take 6 weeks and $1.5M to fix I-75.
Damn 6 weeks that they could have been working on another project and $1.5 million they could have spent on another project.
I'm sure they'll get the money from an insurance company somewhere. But insurance can't give you back time.
Yeah it'll be time wasted more than anything I'm sure the cost is covered by insurance like you said.
Oh wonderful, as if the Troy fire wasn't enough: https://www.clickondetroit.com/traffic/2021/07/18/mackinac-bridge-closed-amid-police-situation/
https://twitter.com/ericlloyd/status/1416848801847988226?s=21
Hopefully nothing happens where the bridge is forced to shut down. As I discussed previously (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29334.msg2616581#msg2616581), it would be a major hardship for the eastern U.P. and a blow to tourism in the region if the bridge was closed for any extended period of time. There's certainly options to reopen ferries, but that would only really make sense for locals or for those whose final destination was east of Manistique.
The Bridge was closed at 2:15pm and reopened a little after 5:00pm after a search. Nothing was found.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 18, 2021, 05:55:19 PM
The Bridge was closed at 2:15pm and reopened a little after 5:00pm after a search. Nothing was found.
Gotta love presumably empty threats. Our local schools have had a couple of them within the past few years, and they're incredibly frustrating because they're so easy to make and can cause so much chaos. You do have to treat them seriously, since they could still be legitimate, but that doesn't make them any less annoying.
Quote from: skluth on July 13, 2021, 03:39:29 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 13, 2021, 02:53:12 PM
^ That's what it looked like to me. Why did he drift left? (If Crash_It was driving that car he cut off, we'd have a wonderful video!)
Probably on the phone. I hope the investigation subpoenas his phone logs from his provider.
We've had two fatal accidents in the last couple of years here in Minnesota where the truck drivers were watching porn on their phones when they should have been driving. In one incident on I-94 northwest of Minneapolis, a construction worker was run over after a semi driver going 72 in a 55 MPH zone hit him, because he was focused on porn and failed to focus on the construction zone. The semi drivers, unfortunately, were given relatively brief prison sentences.
I know I'm in the minority, but I feel any driver who kills someone because they are watching porn (or drunk) should be treated the same way as if they'd used a gun.
Michigan State Police are vamping up efforts to catch speeders in Metro Detroit. Along I-96 yesterday there was a car that was caught doing 114 mph in a 70 mph zone.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 21, 2021, 05:22:26 PM
Michigan State Police are vamping up efforts to catch speeders in Metro Detroit. Along I-96 yesterday there was a car that was caught doing 114 mph in a 70 mph zone.
So why did he get pulled over? Slowest car in metro Detroit? :)
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 21, 2021, 10:37:32 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 21, 2021, 05:22:26 PM
Michigan State Police are vamping up efforts to catch speeders in Metro Detroit. Along I-96 yesterday there was a car that was caught doing 114 mph in a 70 mph zone.
So why did he get pulled over? Slowest car in metro Detroit? :)
I know they issued 133 tickets with the top speed of 115. They didn't even go after anyone under 85 mph either. They plan on doing this on the Lodge, I-75 and 696 too.
Quote
The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) is seeking public input for a future I-94/Ecorse Road interchange replacement project through a public survey at http://metroquestsurvey.com/eh4r4m (a more basic version of the survey is available at https://www.research.net/r/VV8Z5ML).
The survey will first ask users to rank their main concerns about the area of the intersection and then to rank from the four options that will be described, along with a drawing of what the option would look like.
The main concern topics to be ranked are:
- Improve safety,
- Enhance access,
- Accommodate all users,
- Add pedestrian/bike path (to Ecorse Road), and
- Other. (Selecting Other will allow users to type in their own topic.)
The four options under consideration all include eliminating the left-hand entrance ramps to I-94 and adding full access to all directions to and from I-94 and Ecorse Road. The options are:
- A diamond interchange with signals at the ramps,
- Adding a diamond interchange with roundabouts at the ramps,
- A partial cloverleaf interchange with two loop ramps, or
- A diverging diamond at the interchange.
Within the survey there are concept drawings as well as more details for each option.
This is about a mile or so east of the Middlebelt/Merriman interchanges and Detroit Metro Airport.
MDOT release: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-564470--,00.html
More travail for I-75. A sinkhole opened on the nb service drive north of 11 Mile Rd. NB I-75 is closed to assess any damages. (I-75 is below grade there.)
https://www.clickondetroit.com/traffic/2021/07/30/emergency-repairs-close-northbound-i-75-between-i-696-and-12-mile-road/
I-75 in Oakland County is basically dead to me right now.
The M-343 (Gull Road) and G Avenue roundabout opens today (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-565396--,00.html). Some restoration work will continue, and streetlights will be installed in the fall.
https://goo.gl/maps/vJkYCWNftckaQh3e9
I see the missing link of US 31 is now visible on Google Satellite images.
Too bad they could not build it to I-196 as it really should be to have one continuous freeway between the two.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 08, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/vJkYCWNftckaQh3e9
I see the missing link of US 31 is now visible on Google Satellite images.
Too bad they could not build it to I-196 as it really should be to have one continuous freeway between the two.
But that would make too much sense!
MDOT is lame like that all because of a butterfly, give me a break.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 26, 2021, 09:26:35 AM
Quote
The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) is seeking public input for a future I-94/Ecorse Road interchange replacement project through a public survey at http://metroquestsurvey.com/eh4r4m (a more basic version of the survey is available at https://www.research.net/r/VV8Z5ML).
The survey will first ask users to rank their main concerns about the area of the intersection and then to rank from the four options that will be described, along with a drawing of what the option would look like.
The main concern topics to be ranked are:
- Improve safety,
- Enhance access,
- Accommodate all users,
- Add pedestrian/bike path (to Ecorse Road), and
- Other. (Selecting Other will allow users to type in their own topic.)
The four options under consideration all include eliminating the left-hand entrance ramps to I-94 and adding full access to all directions to and from I-94 and Ecorse Road. The options are:
- A diamond interchange with signals at the ramps,
- Adding a diamond interchange with roundabouts at the ramps,
- A partial cloverleaf interchange with two loop ramps, or
- A diverging diamond at the interchange.
Within the survey there are concept drawings as well as more details for each option.
This is about a mile or so east of the Middlebelt/Merriman interchanges and Detroit Metro Airport.
MDOT release: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620-564470--,00.html
I've been wondering when MDOT was going to do something about those left-hand ramps. Especially when it's so close to the airport. Personally, I'd like to see a diamond interchange that touches both Ecorse and Inkster roads, something like the M-14/Maple/Miller interchange on the north side of Ann Arbor: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2990953,-83.7840487,1017m/data=!3m1!1e3 . I think there's enough right-of-way (if not, the northwest corner of I-94 and Inkster is vacant land, so it could easily be acquired for a SB onramp from Inkster)
Quote from: 23skidoo on August 08, 2021, 12:48:27 PM
I've been wondering when MDOT was going to do something about those left-hand ramps. Especially when it's so close to the airport. Personally, I'd like to see a diamond interchange that touches both Ecorse and Inkster roads, something like the M-14/Maple/Miller interchange on the north side of Ann Arbor: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2990953,-83.7840487,1017m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2990953,-83.7840487,1017m/data=!3m1!1e3) . I think there's enough right-of-way (if not, the northwest corner of I-94 and Inkster is vacant land, so it could easily be acquired for a SB onramp from Inkster)
They could extend the C/D lanes for Middlebelt and Merriman Roads east past the Ecorse Rd interchange. It would require, however, some kind of intermediate crossover to allow Inkster and Ecorse Rd-bound traffic to bypass the traffic entering and exiting for Detroit Metro Airport. There's a ton of short-spaced interchanges here already; making it all work smoothly gets more expensive if Inkster Rd needs full access.
There's plenty of easy access already for Inkster via Middlebelt and Inkster Roads; if I was holding the purse strings for MDOT, I'd would put in a SPUI at Ecorse Rd and be done.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 08, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/vJkYCWNftckaQh3e9
I see the missing link of US 31 is now visible on Google Satellite images.
Too bad they could not build it to I-196 as it really should be to have one continuous freeway between the two.
It is beyond pathetic that those freeways aren't being directly connected. This is definitely a case of green tyranny.
It'll be better than Napier Road but it should have been built to connect to I-196. I will never forgive MDOT for that LMAO.
Butterfly in the sky...
I can go twice as high...
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 09, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
I agree. At least what's being built will make US-31 free-flowing with no stops, even though it involves a loop ramp southbound.
If you want to get your shorts in a knot, look at what's happening at the west I-94/US-127 interchange in Jackson. Southbound US-127 freeway traffic has to go through a traffic signal. The DDI now being built does not change that.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 09, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Butterfly in the sky...
I can go twice as high...
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
You're entitled to your opinion and we're entitled to ours. But what's this nonsense about tyranny? You seem to be the one acting like a tyrant in this scenario.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 09, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Butterfly in the sky...
I can go twice as high...
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
You act like I lose sleep at night over there not being a direct connection.
This is a roads forum. Naturally, discussions are going to be road-related. Problems with roads are frequently the subject of said discussions.
Quote from: Terry Shea on August 10, 2021, 03:16:30 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 09, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Butterfly in the sky...
I can go twice as high...
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
You're entitled to your opinion and we're entitled to ours. But what's this nonsense about tyranny? You seem to be the one acting like a tyrant in this scenario.
Actually JoePCool weirdly brought up "tyranny." Which is odd because the Endangered Species Act was passed through the democratic process.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 08, 2021, 08:43:02 PM
It is beyond pathetic that those freeways aren't being directly connected. This is definitely a case of green tyranny.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 10, 2021, 12:50:23 PM
Actually JoePCool weirdly brought up "tyranny." Which is odd because the Endangered Species Act was passed through the democratic process.
And Hugo Chávez was democratically elected. :sombrero:
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 10, 2021, 12:50:23 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on August 10, 2021, 03:16:30 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 09, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Butterfly in the sky...
I can go twice as high...
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
You're entitled to your opinion and we're entitled to ours. But what's this nonsense about tyranny? You seem to be the one acting like a tyrant in this scenario.
Actually JoePCool weirdly brought up "tyranny." Which is odd because the Endangered Species Act was passed through the democratic process.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 08, 2021, 08:43:02 PM
It is beyond pathetic that those freeways aren't being directly connected. This is definitely a case of green tyranny.
This is going to get off topic very quickly, but in this specific case, was there not any alternative to moving the protected land? There are also other examples of this kind of thinking beating out other logic, I'm mostly thinking IL-53 extension.
Protecting species is important. I support a balance though, and not completing an interstate road that connects many miles north and many miles south because of something like that is silly.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 10, 2021, 09:37:22 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 10, 2021, 12:50:23 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on August 10, 2021, 03:16:30 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 09, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Butterfly in the sky...
I can go twice as high...
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
You're entitled to your opinion and we're entitled to ours. But what's this nonsense about tyranny? You seem to be the one acting like a tyrant in this scenario.
Actually JoePCool weirdly brought up "tyranny." Which is odd because the Endangered Species Act was passed through the democratic process.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 08, 2021, 08:43:02 PM
It is beyond pathetic that those freeways aren't being directly connected. This is definitely a case of green tyranny.
This is going to get off topic very quickly, but in this specific case, was there not any alternative to moving the protected land? There are also other examples of this kind of thinking beating out other logic, I'm mostly thinking IL-53 extension.
Protecting species is important. I support a balance though, and not completing an interstate road that connects many miles north and many miles south because of something like that is silly.
But it's the Michigan way! Do something once, in a half-assed, incomplete way. Then tear it out and do it over without one single vehicle ever driving upon it.
They should have built carriageways for US-31 on either side of I-94 in a collector-distributor setup for BL-94 and had slip lanes connecting the two, then US-31 could branch away again to the north to become I-196. Then that would have kept US-31 from going through the butterfly area while keeping it as a full, separate freeway connection to I-196. But that probably would have been way too expensive.
^ At minimum, the I-94 to US-31 south ramp should've been built as a flyover as opposed to the loop going in now.
I'm not going to lose sleep over an interchange that I don't use that often but it would have been better to connect right into I-196.
Quote from: renegade on August 10, 2021, 11:09:57 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 10, 2021, 09:37:22 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 10, 2021, 12:50:23 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on August 10, 2021, 03:16:30 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 09, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Butterfly in the sky...
I can go twice as high...
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
You're entitled to your opinion and we're entitled to ours. But what's this nonsense about tyranny? You seem to be the one acting like a tyrant in this scenario.
Actually JoePCool weirdly brought up "tyranny." Which is odd because the Endangered Species Act was passed through the democratic process.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 08, 2021, 08:43:02 PM
It is beyond pathetic that those freeways aren't being directly connected. This is definitely a case of green tyranny.
This is going to get off topic very quickly, but in this specific case, was there not any alternative to moving the protected land? There are also other examples of this kind of thinking beating out other logic, I'm mostly thinking IL-53 extension.
Protecting species is important. I support a balance though, and not completing an interstate road that connects many miles north and many miles south because of something like that is silly.
But it's the Michigan way! Do something once, in a half-assed, incomplete way. Then tear it out and do it over without one single vehicle ever driving upon it.
Do you remember that stretch of I-696 they had to completely redo right after they had completed it? This happened maybe 2-3 years ago.
I don't remember it on I-696. But recently they had to redo a part of the I-75 rebuild, a mile or so around 13 Mile Rd, where they used the wrong concrete mixture in cold weather.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 10, 2021, 09:37:22 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 10, 2021, 12:50:23 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on August 10, 2021, 03:16:30 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 09, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Butterfly in the sky...
I can go twice as high...
I find it hilarious all the grousing I've read over the years on that particular angle of this slice of our world. And for what? A thirty second faster drive through SW Michigan? Sooo tyrannical... I have to disengage the cruise control!!
The direct connection is never happening. Get over it.
You're entitled to your opinion and we're entitled to ours. But what's this nonsense about tyranny? You seem to be the one acting like a tyrant in this scenario.
Actually JoePCool weirdly brought up "tyranny." Which is odd because the Endangered Species Act was passed through the democratic process.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 08, 2021, 08:43:02 PM
It is beyond pathetic that those freeways aren't being directly connected. This is definitely a case of green tyranny.
This is going to get off topic very quickly, but in this specific case, was there not any alternative to moving the protected land? There are also other examples of this kind of thinking beating out other logic, I'm mostly thinking IL-53 extension.
Protecting species is important. I support a balance though, and not completing an interstate road that connects many miles north and many miles south because of something like that is silly.
I would argue that what they ended up doing is exactly what a balance is. Really it's not that big of a deal.
Quote from: GaryV on August 11, 2021, 08:39:28 AM
I don't remember it on I-696. But recently they had to redo a part of the I-75 rebuild, a mile or so around 13 Mile Rd, where they used the wrong concrete mixture in cold weather.
The I-696 issue was a contractor error, as was the I-75 issue.
Quote from: GaryV on August 11, 2021, 08:39:28 AM
I don't remember it on I-696. But recently they had to redo a part of the I-75 rebuild, a mile or so around 13 Mile Rd, where they used the wrong concrete mixture in cold weather.
It happened in 2018 in Warren.
Part of I-75's new pavement in Saginaw County. Taken from the Janes Road overpass at the southern terminus of I-675.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210815/d8846e5c152201ba712e844f2a762dc2.jpg)
^^ They're paving this final reconstruction/widening stretch with ASPHALT?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 17, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
^^ They're paving this final reconstruction/widening stretch with ASPHALT?
Nothing wrong with that. I've seen it done in other states.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 17, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
^^ They're paving this final reconstruction/widening stretch with ASPHALT?
NY sez: What else would you pave it with?
Nothing inherently wrong with asphalt if it's done correctly, but all the other segments of this long-term reconstruction between Flint and Bay City have been rebuilt in concrete.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 17, 2021, 03:57:40 PM
Nothing inherently wrong with asphalt if it's done correctly, but all the other segments of this long-term reconstruction between Flint and Bay City have been rebuilt in concrete.
I'm not sure if this was part of the original plans because there was a large gap between the end of the construction at MM 148 and the start of construction last year, I'm talking maybe a 10 year gap and in between I-675's terminuses it goes down to six lanes. But I was kind of surprised too that they dids this in asphalt because like you said the rest of it was done in concrete. The project started in 2002.
I had wanted to see the pavement since I noticed that they are removing the dip in I-75 left there from an old railroad overpass and have the SB side completely level with the segments both north and south of there making it a level highway and taking the dip out. It makes sense and I think is nice.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 15, 2021, 02:08:17 PM
Part of I-75's new pavement in Saginaw County. Taken from the Janes Road overpass at the southern terminus of I-675.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210815/d8846e5c152201ba712e844f2a762dc2.jpg)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 17, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
^^ They're paving this final reconstruction/widening stretch with ASPHALT?
Should be fine as long as it's built properly and with enough thickness. Looks like the pavement there before was also asphalt, so it's really just a matter of replacing it with the same thing.
This is the GSV from where I took the pic showing what it looked like before construction began last year.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4290481,-83.890909,3a,15y,179.01h,88.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjhf-mUcyC9W7BM_-y2sCDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Are we sure the final top layer will be asphalt? Not unusual to have asphalt as an underlayment for a concrete layer on top.
Quote from: JREwing78 on August 18, 2021, 08:09:29 PM
Are we sure the final top layer will be asphalt? Not unusual to have asphalt as an underlayment for a concrete layer on top.
I'm still wondering how they are going to get the job done by next June like they are suppose to. They still have to level the northbound side off and repave it, plus do bridge work on the Holland overpass I don't think that will take too long though. I noticed that they have repainted a vastly rusted train bridge on i-675. I have never seen that train bridge without the rust that'll look nice.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4341151,-83.9149823,3a,75y,240.31h,88.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swsRZEyKTWSXWkUYeC0AKGQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 17, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
^^ They're paving this final reconstruction/widening stretch with ASPHALT?
Buckeye wannabes (I'd say 90% of Ohio's hard surface roads use asphalt)
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on August 18, 2021, 11:52:49 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 17, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
^^ They're paving this final reconstruction/widening stretch with ASPHALT?
Buckeye wannabes (I'd say 90% of Ohio's hard surface roads use asphalt)
We are not even close to being Buckeye wannabes
I-675 south of exit 3 has reopened
I just rode on I-75's new asphalt in Saginaw County for the first time. The southbound lanes reopened this morning with the new asphalt. Right now it's three lanes in both directions but they will be starting to work on the northbound lanes soon.
Interesting population numbers out of da U.P. for the 2020 Census:
Marquette County (Marquette) unsurprisingly is still the largest county by population , but down by 1060 residents to 66,017.
Houghton County (Houghton, Hancock), possibly surprisingly, moved from 4th to 2nd place, rising by 733 residents to 37,361.
Delta County (Escanaba) maintains its 3rd place ranking by losing only 74 residents for a total of 36,903.
Chippewa County (Sault. Ste. Marie) slides from 2nd to 4th place after losing 1735 residents, to 36,785.
Turns out, Houghton County is the only U.P. county to increase population between 2010 and 2020. ALL of the other counties, some by negligible amounts, others by dramatic amounts, lost population.
The smallest losers:
Houghton County: +2.00% to 37361
Delta County: -0.45% to 36903
Dickinson County (Iron Mountain): -0.84% to 25947
The biggest losers:
Luce County (Newberry): -19.48% to 5339
Ontonagon County (Ontonagon): -14.22% to 5816
Gogebic County (Ironwood): -12.46% to 14380
The U.P. as a whole lost 9643 residents, for a 3.12% loss. It falls from 311,361 residents in 2010 to 301,608 residents in 2020.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 01, 2021, 10:24:29 PM
The U.P. as a whole lost 9643 residents, for a 3.12% loss. It falls from 311,361 residents in 2010 to 301,608 residents in 2020.
Wikipedia has an article about da U.P. that includes a population of all counties by census year. While not yet updated for 2020, we can see the trend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Peninsula_of_Michigan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Peninsula_of_Michigan)
The U.P.'s highest population was recorded in 1920, with 332,556 residents, after breaking 300,000 just after the turn of the century. Population eased down to 302,258 in 1950, then jumped back up to 319,757 for 1980. After a couple decades of relative stability, populations have fallen again to 1950 levels.
Houghton County still wins for the U.P.'s biggest population loss of all time; it peaked at 88,098 residents in 1910, losing over 60% of its population by 1960. That's what losing a copper mining industry looks like.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 01, 2021, 10:24:29 PM
Interesting population numbers out of da U.P. for the 2020 Census:
Marquette County (Marquette) unsurprisingly is still the largest county by population , but down by 1060 residents to 66,017.
Houghton County (Houghton, Hancock), possibly surprisingly, moved from 4th to 2nd place, rising by 733 residents to 37,361.
Delta County (Escanaba) maintains its 3rd place ranking by losing only 74 residents for a total of 36,903.
Chippewa County (Sault. Ste. Marie) slides from 2nd to 4th place after losing 1735 residents, to 36,785.
Turns out, Houghton County is the only U.P. county to increase population between 2010 and 2020. ALL of the other counties, some by negligible amounts, others by dramatic amounts, lost population.
The smallest losers:
Houghton County: +2.00% to 37361
Delta County: -0.45% to 36903
Dickinson County (Iron Mountain): -0.84% to 25947
The biggest losers:
Luce County (Newberry): -19.48% to 5339
Ontonagon County (Ontonagon): -14.22% to 5816
Gogebic County (Ironwood): -12.46% to 14380
The U.P. as a whole lost 9643 residents, for a 3.12% loss. It falls from 311,361 residents in 2010 to 301,608 residents in 2020.
I can kind of see why it's losing population in those areas like Ontonagon, Sault Ste. Marie, Ironwood and Newberry. I'm not sure why Dickinson County had such a small population drop. I was in these counties last year to finish up the state as far as clinching counties and Houghton was the only city in the U.P. that I visited that I thought was doing well, the other one's seemed to be in decline.
There was a story in the news that there was a big push in Houghton to get MTU students to fill out the census with their school location, not home. Guess it worked!
Out of the cities I visited the one I thought was doing the worst was Ontonagon. It honestly reminded me of the cities in the Lower Peninsula that have lost half their population over the last 70 years. Actually Ontonagon is a village not a city but you get the drift.
Out of the places in the Keweenaw Peninsula it was hard to tell because those places are so sparsely populated. Like Eagle River, Copper Harbor and Ahmeek. It's about 30 miles from the Houghton-Keweenaw County line to the northern terminus of US-41 and all the way to Copper Harbor there is just about nothing except for this really small place called Phoenix where M-26 and US-41 meet closest to Eagle River.
Losing the Smurfit Stone paper mill and the White Pine mine hit the area pretty hard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0zMq0njP4
There are some small copper mining projects in the area, but I wouldn't expect these to create more than a handful of jobs: https://www.highlandcopper.com
Northbound I-75 through the construction zone between mile marker 148 and 150 is down to one lane. Southbound has three lanes open.
The construction project that I mentioned above is now shifted over to the other side. The old northbound lanes are now closed and northbound traffic has been shifted over to the other side of the highway.
Also i-675 northbound north of exit 3 is closed to exit 6.
MDOT has announced a major reconstruction project in Genesee County along I-475. It'll be between 2023 and 2027 and cost around $300 million.
It will involve the stretch of I-475 between Bristol and Carpenter.
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 09, 2021, 09:15:02 AM
MDOT has announced a major reconstruction project in Genesee County along I-475. It'll be between 2023 and 2027 and cost around $300 million.
It will involve the stretch of I-475 between Bristol and Carpenter.
So are they going to have to redo the work they're doing now near the I-69 interchange and just completed near Carpenter? Are they going to shut down the freeway in 1 or both directions? Sounds like an awful expensive and time consuming project, and knowing how MDOT operates they'll probably shut the whole freeway down at the same time they redo the I-75/I-69 interchange!
Quote from: Terry Shea on September 09, 2021, 05:27:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 09, 2021, 09:15:02 AM
MDOT has announced a major reconstruction project in Genesee County along I-475. It'll be between 2023 and 2027 and cost around $300 million.
It will involve the stretch of I-475 between Bristol and Carpenter.
So are they going to have to redo the work they're doing now near the I-69 interchange and just completed near Carpenter? Are they going to shut down the freeway in 1 or both directions? Sounds like an awful expensive and time consuming project, and knowing how MDOT operates they'll probably shut the whole freeway down at the same time they redo the I-75/I-69 interchange!
https://www.abc12.com/2021/09/08/mdot-proposes-big-changes-i-475-with-300-million-project/
US-23 has been closed in both directions at the Ann Arbor Railroad underpass just south of Milan, due to the bridge being struck by an oversized truck. This news just broke in the last 20 minutes. An assessment of the bridge's condition will take place before they re-open the road.
Quote from: JCinSummerfield on September 10, 2021, 01:24:47 PM
US-23 has been closed in both directions at the Ann Arbor Railroad underpass just south of Milan, due to the bridge being struck by an oversized truck. This news just broke in the last 20 minutes. An assessment of the bridge's condition will take place before they re-open the road.
Must have missed hearing about that one. The big news today in Michigan is the Governor signing legislation freeing first-time drunk drivers. Be careful out there.
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 02, 2021, 07:19:32 AM
I can kind of see why it's losing population in those areas like Ontonagon, Sault Ste. Marie, Ironwood and Newberry. I'm not sure why Dickinson County had such a small population drop. I was in these counties last year to finish up the state as far as clinching counties and Houghton was the only city in the U.P. that I visited that I thought was doing well, the other one's seemed to be in decline.
I just went through the U.P. this past week, and it's pretty clear which areas have stable population and which ones fell off a cliff. Houghton and Hancock are clearly doing well, with fairly bustling commercial areas and a surprising amount of tourists in this weird in-between period after Labor Day but before peak color season. Escanaba and Menominee/Marinette are also doing fine, and while Manistique isn't exactly booming, it didn't look unusual for the U.P. in general.
I didn't stop in Ontonagon this trip, but Bruce Crossing looked rough (more so than usual). Ironwood, at least on the US-2 strip, looked exactly like someplace that lost nearly 20% of its residents in the last 20 years. There are a LOT of vacant commercial properties, and the For Sale signs are looking beat up. The Google street view from 3 years ago make it look a lot better than it is.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 19, 2021, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 02, 2021, 07:19:32 AM
I can kind of see why it's losing population in those areas like Ontonagon, Sault Ste. Marie, Ironwood and Newberry. I'm not sure why Dickinson County had such a small population drop. I was in these counties last year to finish up the state as far as clinching counties and Houghton was the only city in the U.P. that I visited that I thought was doing well, the other one's seemed to be in decline.
I just went through the U.P. this past week, and it's pretty clear which areas have stable population and which ones fell off a cliff. Houghton and Hancock are clearly doing well, with fairly bustling commercial areas and a surprising amount of tourists in this weird in-between period after Labor Day but before peak color season. Escanaba and Menominee/Marinette are also doing fine, and while Manistique isn't exactly booming, it didn't look unusual for the U.P. in general.
I didn't stop in Ontonagon this trip, but Bruce Crossing looked rough (more so than usual). Ironwood, at least on the US-2 strip, looked exactly like someplace that lost nearly 20% of its residents in the last 20 years. There are a LOT of vacant commercial properties, and the For Sale signs are looking beat up. The Google street view from 3 years ago make it look a lot better than it is.
Escanaba has lost about 20% of its population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escanaba,_Michigan#Demographics)over the last 50 years. It's better than Ironwood which has steadily lost over 2/3 of its population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironwood,_Michigan#Demographics) since it peaked back in 1920. Ontonagon had a peak population of about 2500 back in 1970 but has lost over half that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontonagon,_Michigan#Demographics) since then. OTOH, Houghton is bigger than it's ever been (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houghton,_Michigan#Demographics). I'm sure being a college town helps.
The UP is dealing with the same problem of losing population that many isolated rural areas are experiencing. You can find the same problem in northern Missouri, the Dakotas, and Wyoming. It's a combination of lack of jobs and poor services from medical to shopping to poor infrastructure. Farms are becoming bigger and more corporate, yet need fewer workers as more tasks become automated. I'd expect these areas to continue to lose people as high-speed internet alone isn't going to solve these issues.
After this week's travels, I'll also revisit my on-going rant about the decision making of the state legislature behind some sections of 2-lane routes in the U.P. having posted speed limits of 65 mph, and others not being posted above 55 mph.
There is literally NOTHING different about routes like US-41, US-141, M-38, or M-35 that are still (underposted) for 55 mph v.s. the 65 mph sections of M-28, US-2, or M-123. Clearly, the results haven't been so disastrous that there's been a widespread clamor to dial back any of the 65 mph sections.
I understand not every section should qualify. For instance, US-41 between Chassell and Houghton is appropriately posted, as is US-41 through Baraga and L'anse, or through Champion. OTOH, there's a whole lot of bupkis on US-141 north of Crystal Falls, or on M-95, or M-69. If M-123 north of M-28 qualifies (I would personally argue it's substandard based on narrow travel lanes, narrow shoulders, and general curviness), there's no route outside of populated areas that shouldn't qualify for the speed limit increase.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 19, 2021, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 02, 2021, 07:19:32 AM
I can kind of see why it's losing population in those areas like Ontonagon, Sault Ste. Marie, Ironwood and Newberry. I'm not sure why Dickinson County had such a small population drop. I was in these counties last year to finish up the state as far as clinching counties and Houghton was the only city in the U.P. that I visited that I thought was doing well, the other one's seemed to be in decline.
I just went through the U.P. this past week, and it's pretty clear which areas have stable population and which ones fell off a cliff. Houghton and Hancock are clearly doing well, with fairly bustling commercial areas and a surprising amount of tourists in this weird in-between period after Labor Day but before peak color season. Escanaba and Menominee/Marinette are also doing fine, and while Manistique isn't exactly booming, it didn't look unusual for the U.P. in general.
I didn't stop in Ontonagon this trip, but Bruce Crossing looked rough (more so than usual). Ironwood, at least on the US-2 strip, looked exactly like someplace that lost nearly 20% of its residents in the last 20 years. There are a LOT of vacant commercial properties, and the For Sale signs are looking beat up. The Google street view from 3 years ago make it look a lot better than it is.
I was coming out of the Keweenaw on M-26 and then took M-38 to Ontonagon then went to US-45's northern terminus and turned around. Ontonagon indeed looks like it's lost a lot of population there are a lot of abandoned places there but downtown seemed ok for a U.P. city (actually village) but the rest of it just looked worn out. I think that might be the case for Ontonagon County because I spent some time riding around there. Bruce Crossing is just a gas station, hardware store, some worn out looking buildings and a cafe, oh and a Dollar General and fire station are there too. I didn't make it all the way to Ironwood, I started to trek south and ended up in Iowa on that trip. I went through Watersmeet in Gogebic County you can tell the loss of population around there too.
US 23 is closed between Dundee and Milan due to a bridge hit. Going to be for a few weeks.
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 19, 2021, 03:32:43 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 19, 2021, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 02, 2021, 07:19:32 AM
I can kind of see why it's losing population in those areas like Ontonagon, Sault Ste. Marie, Ironwood and Newberry. I'm not sure why Dickinson County had such a small population drop. I was in these counties last year to finish up the state as far as clinching counties and Houghton was the only city in the U.P. that I visited that I thought was doing well, the other one's seemed to be in decline.
I just went through the U.P. this past week, and it's pretty clear which areas have stable population and which ones fell off a cliff. Houghton and Hancock are clearly doing well, with fairly bustling commercial areas and a surprising amount of tourists in this weird in-between period after Labor Day but before peak color season. Escanaba and Menominee/Marinette are also doing fine, and while Manistique isn't exactly booming, it didn't look unusual for the U.P. in general.
I didn't stop in Ontonagon this trip, but Bruce Crossing looked rough (more so than usual). Ironwood, at least on the US-2 strip, looked exactly like someplace that lost nearly 20% of its residents in the last 20 years. There are a LOT of vacant commercial properties, and the For Sale signs are looking beat up. The Google street view from 3 years ago make it look a lot better than it is.
I was coming out of the Keweenaw on M-26 and then took M-38 to Ontonagon then went to US-45's northern terminus and turned around. Ontonagon indeed looks like it's lost a lot of population there are a lot of abandoned places there but downtown seemed ok for a U.P. city (actually village) but the rest of it just looked worn out. I think that might be the case for Ontonagon County because I spent some time riding around there. Bruce Crossing is just a gas station, hardware store, some worn out looking buildings and a cafe, oh and a Dollar General and fire station are there too. I didn't make it all the way to Ironwood, I started to trek south and ended up in Iowa on that trip. I went through Watersmeet in Gogebic County you can tell the loss of population around there too.
I was in Ontonagon last year (see my US45 endpoint photos on US Ends (https://www.usends.com/45.html)), and yeah, it looked like a good amount of establishments were abandoned. Is this another case of former mining towns having lots of people skip town when ores become depleted? Of all the places where diaspora was so prominent that became known as "ghost towns," most of them were mining towns. Is this the same sort of phenomenon? I remember Iron Mountain looking like a lot of things were abandoned, too.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on September 21, 2021, 11:02:33 AM
I was in Ontonagon last year (see my US45 endpoint photos on US Ends (https://www.usends.com/45.html)), and yeah, it looked like a good amount of establishments were abandoned. Is this another case of former mining towns having lots of people skip town when ores become depleted? Of all the places where diaspora was so prominent that became known as "ghost towns," most of them were mining towns. Is this the same sort of phenomenon? I remember Iron Mountain looking like a lot of things were abandoned, too.
Iron Mountain's big economic hit was over 50 years ago when Ford closed their plant in Kingsford. Iron mining stopped during the Depression. There is still some industry in the region including a paper mill but it's more a tourist economy now.
Looking at M-59 east of Utica and its abnormally wide median, are there long-term plans to turn it into a freeway all the way east to I-94? The median alone could fit a 6 lane freeway, and taking away two of the four lanes from each side of the "frontage road", you can get a 8-10 lane freeway just from its current ROW.
But where would they put the Golden A.....
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6270082,-82.9894386,3a,75y,77.88h,90.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNsWQU-y_pWhH8whuMHUvcQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2021, 07:25:53 PM
Looking at M-59 east of Utica and its abnormally wide median, are there long-term plans to turn it into a freeway all the way east to I-94? The median alone could fit a 6 lane freeway, and taking away two of the four lanes from each side of the "frontage road", you can get a 8-10 lane freeway just from its current ROW.
M-59 was proposed as a freeway between Pontiac and I-94 but it would have taken a different route than the current M-59 corridor. East of Utica it was proposed to run roughly along 21 Mile Road and north of there (Hall Road which is M-59 is 20 Mile). A lot of Michigan highways with Michigan left turns are wide like that.
Quote from: GaryV on September 27, 2021, 07:31:33 PM
But where would they put the Golden A.....
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6270082,-82.9894386,3a,75y,77.88h,90.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNsWQU-y_pWhH8whuMHUvcQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
In the trash, where it belongs. :bigass:
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2021, 07:25:53 PM
Looking at M-59 east of Utica and its abnormally wide median, are there long-term plans to turn it into a freeway all the way east to I-94? The median alone could fit a 6 lane freeway, and taking away two of the four lanes from each side of the "frontage road", you can get a 8-10 lane freeway just from its current ROW.
I remember when they were building the M-59 trench in Utica, thinking it would be a freeway at least to M-53 and possibly to I-94. I can't believe they ended the freeway where they did, short of M-53. Then again, MDOT rarely, if ever, does anything right!
Quote from: renegade on September 27, 2021, 09:21:31 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 27, 2021, 07:31:33 PM
But where would they put the Golden A.....
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6270082,-82.9894386,3a,75y,77.88h,90.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNsWQU-y_pWhH8whuMHUvcQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
In the trash, where it belongs. :bigass:
Scrap metal
Quote from: Terry Shea on September 27, 2021, 10:29:30 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2021, 07:25:53 PM
Looking at M-59 east of Utica and its abnormally wide median, are there long-term plans to turn it into a freeway all the way east to I-94? The median alone could fit a 6 lane freeway, and taking away two of the four lanes from each side of the "frontage road", you can get a 8-10 lane freeway just from its current ROW.
I remember when they were building the M-59 trench in Utica, thinking it would be a freeway at least to M-53 and possibly to I-94. I can't believe they ended the freeway where they did, short of M-53. Then again, MDOT rarely, if ever, does anything right!
It's all about things falling into their budget. The traffic light at M-59 and Van Dyke really puts M-59 traffic at a standstill.
The Mackinac Bridge Authority will be reinstating its Driver Assistance program on November 1st. The program was suspended in March 2020 due to COVID-19. It provides an Authority staffer to drive your car across the bridge, for those who have fears of driving across themselves or who want to concentrate on the scenery instead.
There will now be a $10 fee, increasing to $15 in 2025 (used to be free). There will also be increased fees for transporting pedestrians, bicycles, and snowmobiles (none of which are usually allowed to cross the bridge on their own).
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MBA_assistance_programs_reinstated_Oct_2021__REV_10-14-21_clean_738456_7.pdf
You could pretty much take a nap while waiting for the temporary traffic light on M-52 in Saginaw County.
Quote from: skluth on October 23, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
..idiot who was driving their Jeep down El Cielo in Palm Springs going about 32-33 in a 45 mph zone in front of me this morning.
I was expecting 12-13 over the speed limit from Michigan drivers, not 12-13 under.
Also, what's the chance that that was a rental car? From all the times my family rented cars, they're almost all a different state plate than the state we rented the car in.
The temporary traffic light in Saginaw County on M-52 between Lakefield Road and Stello Road has been removed and traffic is running in both directions. The temporary traffic light caused delays in both directions all summer.
This link: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151--571899--,00.html has the overview for Michigan's 5 Year Transportation Program. Details on the plan are at this link: https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Five-Year_Transportation_Program_713823_7.pdf
Some highlights:
Rebuilding I-69 from Fenton to M-54 (Dort Highway)
Fixing I-196 in W. Michigan
Rebuild I-96 in Oakland County to include "Flex lanes", similar to US-23 in Washtenaw & Oakland Counties
Work on M-37 in the Traverse City area
Continued work on the I-94/US-31/Bus. I-94 interchange and adjacent roads near Benton Harbor
Work on US-41 in Houghton
Reconstruct I-94 in Jackson County
I just glanced over the document so I don't know if this includes the just passed Infrastructure Plan in Congress
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on November 07, 2021, 05:18:33 PM
I just glanced over the document so I don't know if this includes the just passed Infrastructure Plan in Congress
Nope. Much of this is being expedited due to bonds that were sold prior to the Infrastructure Plan, and a lot of the projects in it are already in progress. When they release the 2022-2027 plan, you may well see a lot of these projects get pushed forward on the schedule and/or completed in a shorter time frame. It's also possible that, depending on the funding rollout, you may not see substantial changes until the 2023-2028 plan.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 07, 2021, 05:32:06 PM
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on November 07, 2021, 05:18:33 PM
I just glanced over the document so I don't know if this includes the just passed Infrastructure Plan in Congress
Nope. Much of this is being expedited due to bonds that were sold prior to the Infrastructure Plan, and a lot of the projects in it are already in progress. When they release the 2022-2027 plan, you may well see a lot of these projects get pushed forward on the schedule and/or completed in a shorter time frame. It's also possible that, depending on the funding rollout, you may not see substantial changes until the 2023-2028 plan.
Looking thru the plans; you're right. Much of the work in the plans are already underway or plotted out in the near future. One thing that made me chuckle: The Belle Isle Bridge over the Detroit River is planned for repair next year. It is listed as OLD 700! I wonder is M-700 was ever signed in the field!
^^ I've commented on this topic twice and that's it. I've said my piece. Everyone can't have the last word.
Moving along...
MDOT will be hosting a virtual public meeting on November 18th to discuss the planned 2024 replacement of the Church Street park deck over I-696 in Oak Park. This is the easternmost of the three park decks built when this section of I-696 was constructed in the mid-1980s. It's been leaking water for years, resulting in large icicles and ice patches on the freeway surface. A project a few years ago that tore up the park to waterproof the deck structure resulted in no improvement.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/11/08/mdot-virtual-meeting-696-construction/6316624001/
(Interestingly, the recently-released 2022-2026 Five Year Plan shows this project in 2023.)
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/11/08/mdot-virtual-meeting-696-construction/6316624001/
I have not driven this route since I was in Michigan before the pandemic. For those in the know; is this end of life design issues, design flaws, problems with the park above or other. I know the Reuther Freeway had these plazas built as a deal of its construction over 30 years ago, but the article only list the symptoms not the cause of the leaks on I-696.
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on November 12, 2021, 06:34:27 PM
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/11/08/mdot-virtual-meeting-696-construction/6316624001/
I have not driven this route since I was in Michigan before the pandemic. For those in the know; is this end of life design issues, design flaws, problems with the park above or other. I know the Reuther Freeway had these plazas built as a deal of its construction over 30 years ago, but the article only list the symptoms not the cause of the leaks on I-696.
I don't know, but I'm sure if we added E-Z Pass it would solve this issue. :)
I think they have bigger things to worry about than that.
https://hub.9and10news.com/homepage_articles/contractor-boat-connected-to-enbridge-hits-mackinac-bridge/article_cbd8e538-92ca-5f0c-acd9-4d25665081e9.html
Quote from: renegade on November 15, 2021, 08:11:20 PM
I think they have bigger things to worry about than that.
https://hub.9and10news.com/homepage_articles/contractor-boat-connected-to-enbridge-hits-mackinac-bridge/article_cbd8e538-92ca-5f0c-acd9-4d25665081e9.html
Ruh roh.
Michigan State Police Troopers saw a green Toyota Tundra heading north on the Mackinac Bridge at a high speed before midnight on Wednesday and pulled the car over near the toll booths. The car was stolen from a used car dealership in San Saba, Texas. He fought with the troopers while they arrested him and he has been lodged in the Mackinac County Jail for possessing a stolen vehicle, resisting and obstructing police officers, operating under the influence of drugs and not having a valid driver license.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 20, 2021, 10:31:51 AM
Michigan State Police Troopers saw a green Toyota Tundra heading north on the Mackinac Bridge at a high speed before midnight on Wednesday and pulled the car over near the toll booths. The car was stolen from a used car dealership in San Saba, Texas. He fought with the troopers while they arrested him and he has been lodged in the Mackinac County Jail for possessing a stolen vehicle, resisting and obstructing police officers, operating under the influence of drugs and not having a valid driver license.
... and he never even got to use his EZPass! :pan:
Quote from: renegade on November 20, 2021, 11:31:40 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 20, 2021, 10:31:51 AM
Michigan State Police Troopers saw a green Toyota Tundra heading north on the Mackinac Bridge at a high speed before midnight on Wednesday and pulled the car over near the toll booths. The car was stolen from a used car dealership in San Saba, Texas. He fought with the troopers while they arrested him and he has been lodged in the Mackinac County Jail for possessing a stolen vehicle, resisting and obstructing police officers, operating under the influence of drugs and not having a valid driver license.
... and he never even got to use his EZPass! :pan:
LMAO
I thought you two were going to say the driver wouldn't of been stopped if EZ Pass was installed.
It looks like MDOT has reopened all lanes of I-75 in the construction zone between mile markers 148 and 150. After almost two decades I-75 is finally 8 Lanes between I-475's northern terminus in Flint and I-675's southern terminus in Saginaw.
This picture was just taken the other day.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211123/7decdf239a6a92f730c014997327dbc5.jpg)
New signage along I-75 northbound.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/7ff38e2a02ada2c7152dd39aa35363fb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/c93ada88c8838d950284719e44aa028c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/a189a482e272f1a34c854a5d8522f0cf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/120d7a01d818177169df616a87a1e43b.jpg)
^^ I really really really really really really dislike how MDOT signing plans no longer evenly line up the bottom edges of multiple signs on a gantry, especially on the triangular trichord ones. It looks sloppy as hell.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 26, 2021, 07:36:12 PM
^^ I really really really really really really dislike how MDOT signing plans no longer evenly line up the bottom edges of multiple signs on a gantry, especially on the triangular trichord ones. It looks sloppy as hell.
Hey, at least they're getting the spelling right. This was over 30 years ago, but they once put up an exit sign on I-196 WB for M-45 Lake MIchigan Dr. which they abbreviated as "Lake Mihc. Dr.":)
Speaking of odd signs in the state, I recently drove through Jackson and noticed this sign that was installed on I-94 during the reconstruction: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2745669,-84.3891765,3a,20.9y,277.14h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0RosTprSMVT-AB1kljJEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Is this intended to be temporary and eventually have an overhead version replace it in a future project? It seems like an odd design and I've never seen one like it before.
Quote from: rhen_var on December 05, 2021, 09:09:42 PM
Speaking of odd signs in the state, I recently drove through Jackson and noticed this sign that was installed on I-94 during the reconstruction: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2745669,-84.3891765,3a,20.9y,277.14h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0RosTprSMVT-AB1kljJEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Is this intended to be temporary and eventually have an overhead version replace it in a future project? It seems like an odd design and I've never seen one like it before.
What's odd about it? Looks like a perfectly normal sign to me.
Not sure how long this is going to last but I-75 is closed between mile marker 144 and 149 due to a power line laying across all lanes of the highway both directions are closed until further notice
I was just on it I-75 has been reopened.
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 06, 2021, 12:27:13 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on December 05, 2021, 09:09:42 PM
Speaking of odd signs in the state, I recently drove through Jackson and noticed this sign that was installed on I-94 during the reconstruction: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2745669,-84.3891765,3a,20.9y,277.14h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0RosTprSMVT-AB1kljJEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Is this intended to be temporary and eventually have an overhead version replace it in a future project? It seems like an odd design and I've never seen one like it before.
What's odd about it? Looks like a perfectly normal sign to me.
It's an exit only sign but with mounted to the side with the arrow pointing diagonally down at the exit only lane. Typically they're directly over the exit lane. Have you ever seen one like that before, and if so, where?
Quote from: rhen_var on December 06, 2021, 09:33:06 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 06, 2021, 12:27:13 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on December 05, 2021, 09:09:42 PM
Speaking of odd signs in the state, I recently drove through Jackson and noticed this sign that was installed on I-94 during the reconstruction: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2745669,-84.3891765,3a,20.9y,277.14h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0RosTprSMVT-AB1kljJEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Is this intended to be temporary and eventually have an overhead version replace it in a future project? It seems like an odd design and I've never seen one like it before.
What's odd about it? Looks like a perfectly normal sign to me.
It's an exit only sign but with mounted to the side with the arrow pointing diagonally down at the exit only lane. Typically they're directly over the exit lane. Have you ever seen one like that before, and if so, where?
I've seen them in situations where a cantilever structure (with an overhead sign) had been removed, I'm guessing because of structural concerns, until the cantilever was replaced. Which sometimes has taken years.
For example: Eastbound I-94 approaching Sargent Road in Jackson. You can see the footing for the previous cantilever structure behind the sign. (This is an older photo; the exit-only lane no longer exists.)
(https://i.imgur.com/iTEPG1b.jpg)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 06, 2021, 10:22:42 PM
Quote from: rhen_var on December 06, 2021, 09:33:06 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 06, 2021, 12:27:13 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on December 05, 2021, 09:09:42 PM
Speaking of odd signs in the state, I recently drove through Jackson and noticed this sign that was installed on I-94 during the reconstruction: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2745669,-84.3891765,3a,20.9y,277.14h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0RosTprSMVT-AB1kljJEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Is this intended to be temporary and eventually have an overhead version replace it in a future project? It seems like an odd design and I've never seen one like it before.
What's odd about it? Looks like a perfectly normal sign to me.
It's an exit only sign but with mounted to the side with the arrow pointing diagonally down at the exit only lane. Typically they're directly over the exit lane. Have you ever seen one like that before, and if so, where?
I've seen them in situations where a cantilever structure (with an overhead sign) had been removed, I'm guessing because of structural concerns, until the cantilever was replaced. Which sometimes has taken years.
For example: Eastbound I-94 approaching Sargent Road in Jackson. You can see the footing for the previous cantilever structure behind the sign. (This is an older photo; the exit-only lane no longer exists.)
Interesting, thanks for the example! So it is a "temporary" solution, that would explain why I'd never seen one before. I suppose the Cooper St one will be around for a while then.
Quote from: rhen_var on December 05, 2021, 09:09:42 PM
Speaking of odd signs in the state, I recently drove through Jackson and noticed this sign that was installed on I-94 during the reconstruction: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2745669,-84.3891765,3a,20.9y,277.14h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0RosTprSMVT-AB1kljJEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Is this intended to be temporary and eventually have an overhead version replace it in a future project? It seems like an odd design and I've never seen one like it before.
Keep this one for the shear fact that it's a modern MDOT sign in FHWA font.
https://www.abc12.com/news/local/tolls-on-bay-citys-drawbridge-scheduled-to-begin-for-some-in-2022/article_b31babd6-61b4-11ec-89b3-f31813ea6913.html
Two toll bridges will be coming to Bay City on the existing drawbridges (Liberty and Independence bridges). Tolls will be collected via a gantry, so there will be a transponder that will cost $15 a month. People who live outside of the Bay City area will be charged, and an invoice of 50 cents per crossing will be added to those who don't have a transponder.
Edit to add: The new tolling system will be designed to be compatible with as many other toll systems as possible, including EZ-Pass and the new MacPass stickers.
Fact sheet: https://baycitybridgepartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/BCBP_FactSheet-Oct20.pdf
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 20, 2021, 05:16:46 PM
https://www.abc12.com/news/local/tolls-on-bay-citys-drawbridge-scheduled-to-begin-for-some-in-2022/article_b31babd6-61b4-11ec-89b3-f31813ea6913.html
Two toll bridges will be coming to Bay City on the existing drawbridges (Liberty and Independence bridges). Tolls will be collected via a gantry, so there will be a transponder that will cost $15 a month. People who live outside of the Bay City area will be charged, and an invoice of 50 cents per crossing will be added to those who don't have a transponder.
Good I won't have any problem shunpiking these bridges. What a stupid idea for a city like Bay City this is utterly ridiculous.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 20, 2021, 05:16:46 PM
https://www.abc12.com/news/local/tolls-on-bay-citys-drawbridge-scheduled-to-begin-for-some-in-2022/article_b31babd6-61b4-11ec-89b3-f31813ea6913.html
Two toll bridges will be coming to Bay City on the existing drawbridges (Liberty and Independence bridges). Tolls will be collected via a gantry, so there will be a transponder that will cost $15 a month. People who live outside of the Bay City area will be charged, and an invoice of 50 cents per crossing will be added to those who don't have a transponder.
Edit to add: The new tolling system will be designed to be compatible with as many other toll systems as possible, including EZ-Pass and the new MacPass stickers.
Fact sheet: https://baycitybridgepartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/BCBP_FactSheet-Oct20.pdf
That will bring tourism to the city! :) Maybe the city can hire Madonna as their spokesperson! :) :) :)
I was just in Bay City today thinking of how old and run down it is. It's just a typical city on the Great Lakes and has very old buildings. There really isn't any reason to toll these bridges. People in Bay City aren't going to be happy having to pay extra money to cross the bridge. This is a city I know very well and trust me this is not going to go over well at all.
Anyone have details of the Traverse City bypass that was never built?
Quote from: texaskdog on December 20, 2021, 09:14:28 PM
Anyone have details of the Traverse City bypass that was never built?
As far I am aware of, I have only seen the bypass as an idea in regards to increasing traffic.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 20, 2021, 08:25:43 PM
I was just in Bay City today thinking of how old and run down it is. It's just a typical city on the Great Lakes and has very old buildings. There really isn't any reason to toll these bridges. People in Bay City aren't going to be happy having to pay extra money to cross the bridge. This is a city I know very well and trust me this is not going to go over well at all.
I remember hearing that the bridges are both in very poor shape and Bay City was struggling with getting the budget to repair or replace them, and citizens didn't want to raise taxes to pay for it. Privatizing it and imposing a toll must have been the only realistic thing they could do without having to demolish one of them to make funding available to repair the other, or shut both down until fixing them was in the budget.
Quote from: rhen_var on December 21, 2021, 12:21:03 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 20, 2021, 08:25:43 PM
I was just in Bay City today thinking of how old and run down it is. It's just a typical city on the Great Lakes and has very old buildings. There really isn't any reason to toll these bridges. People in Bay City aren't going to be happy having to pay extra money to cross the bridge. This is a city I know very well and trust me this is not going to go over well at all.
I remember hearing that the bridges are both in very poor shape and Bay City was struggling with getting the budget to repair or replace them, and citizens didn't want to raise taxes to pay for it. Privatizing it and imposing a toll must have been the only realistic thing they could do without having to demolish one of them to make funding available to repair the other, or shut both down until fixing them was in the budget.
I drove over the Independence Bridge and thought it was fine but have no idea what condition the bridge is actually in. Then returning over the river I came across the Lafayette Bridge which was being raised for a boat when I went through and had to wait 10 minutes for the bridge to go back down. The Lafayette and Vets Bridge's would be the only free ones and would see most of the traffic I'm sure. If you toll these bridges people are going to find a way around it even if it's inconvenient. Bay City residents already pay through the roof for basic services.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 21, 2021, 07:27:46 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on December 21, 2021, 12:21:03 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 20, 2021, 08:25:43 PM
I was just in Bay City today thinking of how old and run down it is. It's just a typical city on the Great Lakes and has very old buildings. There really isn't any reason to toll these bridges. People in Bay City aren't going to be happy having to pay extra money to cross the bridge. This is a city I know very well and trust me this is not going to go over well at all.
I remember hearing that the bridges are both in very poor shape and Bay City was struggling with getting the budget to repair or replace them, and citizens didn't want to raise taxes to pay for it. Privatizing it and imposing a toll must have been the only realistic thing they could do without having to demolish one of them to make funding available to repair the other, or shut both down until fixing them was in the budget.
I drove over the Independence Bridge and thought it was fine but have no idea what condition the bridge is actually in. Then returning over the river I came across the Lafayette Bridge which was being raised for a boat when I went through and had to wait 10 minutes for the bridge to go back down. The Lafayette and Vets Bridge's would be the only free ones and would see most of the traffic I'm sure. If you toll these bridges people are going to find a way around it even if it's inconvenient. Bay City residents already pay through the roof for basic services.
I'm not disagreeing with you that tolling the bridges in the first place, and only tolling half of them, is a silly idea - I'm just pointing out the conditions that lead up to this. According to the article below from 2019, the bridges were in such bad condition that they would have to close them to traffic within 2 years if they were not repaired. Seeing as they're still open now, that estimate must have been a bit extreme, but the point still stands that those bridges were getting to the point of being unsafe. The other two alternatives would have been to raise taxes to repair them, demolish one and repair the other, or close both bridges until they had enough money to repair them, which might have taken years.
https://www.secondwavemedia.com/baycity/features/bay-city-bridges.aspx (https://www.secondwavemedia.com/baycity/features/bay-city-bridges.aspx)
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 20, 2021, 05:16:46 PM
The new tolling system will be designed to be compatible with as many other toll systems as possible, including EZ-Pass and the new MacPass stickers.
After all that noise upthread about the Mac and iPass, surprised to hear crickets about this tidbit. :bigass:
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 21, 2021, 12:39:20 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 20, 2021, 05:16:46 PM
The new tolling system will be designed to be compatible with as many other toll systems as possible, including EZ-Pass and the new MacPass stickers.
After all that noise upthread about the Mac and iPass, surprised to hear crickets about this tidbit. :bigass:
Given the $15/month transponder fee for these bridges, I would think it would make sense for most people to use either MacPass or E-ZPass depending on their travel patterns.
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on December 20, 2021, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on December 20, 2021, 09:14:28 PM
Anyone have details of the Traverse City bypass that was never built?
As far I am aware of, I have only seen the bypass as an idea in regards to increasing traffic.
It was opposed about 20 years ago because of environmental reasons, cost, sprawl, traffic and NIMBYism. Airport Road & 3 Mile Road serve as a defacto bypass of the downtown area.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 21, 2021, 12:39:20 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 20, 2021, 05:16:46 PM
The new tolling system will be designed to be compatible with as many other toll systems as possible, including EZ-Pass and the new MacPass stickers.
After all that noise upthread about the Mac and iPass, surprised to hear crickets about this tidbit. :bigass:
The whole idea is insane! Charge a toll and then make you wait to cross. I think they're going to throw some politicians to the bottom of the Saginaw River. :)
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on December 21, 2021, 01:20:56 PM
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on December 20, 2021, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on December 20, 2021, 09:14:28 PM
Anyone have details of the Traverse City bypass that was never built?
As far I am aware of, I have only seen the bypass as an idea in regards to increasing traffic.
It was opposed about 20 years ago because of environmental reasons, cost, sprawl, traffic and NIMBYism. Airport Road & 3 Mile Road serve as a defacto bypass of the downtown area.
Most of that route is four lanes (with the exception of South Airport between Garfield and Three Mile).
Traverse City already has two de facto bypasses using local roads, with the other being Beitner to Keystone to Hammond to Four Mile (Hammond used to end just shy of Keystone until a few years ago)
Rather than any sort of bypass, I think Traverse City would benefit from a straighter route connecting it to US 131. Something that starts on M-113 and then takes as straight shot to County 611 just outside Mayfield, then taking over that county road into Traverse.
I reckon a good chunk of their tourist traffic is coming up 131 so having a straight shot between TC and US 131 would make that connection easier and safer.
I see a high-quality two-lane highway with turn lanes and such at important intersections as sufficient for this task.
MDOT has agreed to reconstruct the counterclockwise "Woodward Loop" in downtown Pontiac during 2024-2025 and convert it to a series of two-way boulevards with slower speed limits and increased pedestrian access and safety.
Apparently this has been in discussions on and off over the past 20 years, but the last time MDOT seriously considered it the city backed out. Not so now.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2022/01/02/state-unwind-woodward-loop-pontiac-leaders-say-strangles-city/9057673002/
Along with it will be a reconstruction of M-59 through the area. I wonder if we might see a rerouting of westbound M-59 to remove it from the Loop, as well as rerouting of the I-75 and US-24 business loops.
I've never been to Pontiac, but based on looking around on GMSV, this sounds like a good idea. I agree with the article calling it a psychological moat around downtown. It literally helps people avoid the downtown area, which is quite opposite of what you'd want.
I don't agree with the article's race-baiting though. I think we can talk about the current design being antiquated by saying it's bad for everyone without having to bring race into it.
How interesting, I've always wondered what the loop was for around Pontiac.
The Pontiac Loop really isn't that big of a deal.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 03, 2022, 07:14:00 AM
The Pontiac Loop really isn't that big of a deal.
Pontiac isn't that big of a deal since The Lions and The Pistons have both exited the area.
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 03, 2022, 08:21:04 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 03, 2022, 07:14:00 AM
The Pontiac Loop really isn't that big of a deal.
Pontiac isn't that big of a deal since The Lions and The Pistons have both exited the area.
Pontiac, Flint, Saginaw they all seem about the same to me.
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on January 03, 2022, 02:26:41 AM
How interesting, I've always wondered what the loop was for around Pontiac.
The loop was originally known as "Widetrack Boulevard", when Pontiac Motor Division advertised that their cars had "wide track".
It was designed to keep trucks and workers going north from the GM Truck factories on the south side of Pontiac, or going south from the Pontiac Motor Division assembly complex on the north side of Pontiac, out of downtown. In the 1970s, 86,000 people worked at GM's factories in Pontiac. Now that most of GM's factories in Pontiac have closed, there's a lot less truck and GM employee traffic in Pontiac.
Good news: MDOT is going to perform work on I-94 through Battle Creek in 2023
Bad news: Still only 2 lanes each way.
I don't know what the point of this intersection design with Telegraph & Elizabeth Lake Roads in Pontiac. However, if it gets redesigned to a normal intersection, then it could open up space for retail.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6396867,-83.3236357,1034m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on January 04, 2022, 07:37:49 PM
I don't know what the point of this intersection design with Telegraph & Elizabeth Lake Roads in Pontiac. However, if it gets redesigned to a normal intersection, then it could open up space for retail.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6396867,-83.3236357,1034m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0
I'm not entirely sure myself – it's still a 4-phase signal, so the side ramps aren't doing anything.
That said, there's nothing preventing the space within the loop from being used for retail.
Quote from: 1 on January 04, 2022, 07:40:59 PM
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on January 04, 2022, 07:37:49 PM
I don't know what the point of this intersection design with Telegraph & Elizabeth Lake Roads in Pontiac. However, if it gets redesigned to a normal intersection, then it could open up space for retail.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6396867,-83.3236357,1034m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0
I'm not entirely sure myself – it's still a 4-phase signal, so the side ramps aren't doing anything.
Streetview shows the northbound left being prohibited. (https://goo.gl/maps/LBk7MkQ3jhEig1pR9) Is/was there some sort of major imbalance between northbound and southbound traffic around there?
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2022, 10:22:31 PM
Streetview shows the northbound left being prohibited. (https://goo.gl/maps/LBk7MkQ3jhEig1pR9) Is/was there some sort of major imbalance between northbound and southbound traffic around there?
I suspect the ghostly outline of a demolished shopping mall in the northwest quadrant of this intersection is your answer.
There are a couple of these on Van Dyke (M-53) in Warren too, at Chicago Rd and 14 Mile (technically that loop is in Sterling Heights).
I'm not sure what the theory behind them is - something for where a Michigan Left isn't possible?
NB on Van Dyke to WB would originally have had heavy home-bound traffic as the various auto plants and the tank plant south of there had shift changes.
Quote from: GaryV on January 05, 2022, 01:13:58 PM
There are a couple of these on Van Dyke (M-53) in Warren too, at Chicago Rd and 14 Mile (technically that loop is in Sterling Heights).
I'm not sure what the theory behind them is - something for where a Michigan Left isn't possible?
NB on Van Dyke to WB would originally have had heavy home-bound traffic as the various auto plants and the tank plant south of there had shift changes.
There used to be one at Van Dyke & Metro Pkwy: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5663411,-83.0295502,1041m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0
This is 1960's road design. When things were fast n' loose in road construction. Also, Van Dyke probably had more traffic than now because of changing demographics. Not to forget that Mound Road was not expanded as it is now to take the load off M-53.
WB I-94 is getting closed between I-75 and Connor for bridge replacement in advance of the I-94 widening
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2022/01/05/wb-94-between-75-connor-detroit-close-weekend-construction/9102963002/
This is one of those rare freeway expansion projects that I am skeptical of. The EIS bases the need for the extra lane on a 29%(!) increase in traffic forecast by 2040.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 05, 2022, 09:39:18 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2022, 10:22:31 PM
Streetview shows the northbound left being prohibited. (https://goo.gl/maps/LBk7MkQ3jhEig1pR9) Is/was there some sort of major imbalance between northbound and southbound traffic around there?
I suspect the ghostly outline of a demolished shopping mall in the northwest quadrant of this intersection is your answer.
That was Summit Place Mall, which closed in 2009 (though the Sears remained open until 2014).
Quote from: kernals12 on January 05, 2022, 10:11:06 PM
WB I-94 is getting closed between I-75 and Connor for bridge replacement in advance of the I-94 widening
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2022/01/05/wb-94-between-75-connor-detroit-close-weekend-construction/9102963002/
This is one of those rare freeway expansion projects that I am skeptical of. The EIS bases the need for the extra lane on a 29%(!) increase in traffic forecast by 2040.
You have a point, though the work would need to happen for another reason: life-cycle. You may not know, but this road predates the interstate system. When the highway was built, I-94 did not exist yet. The freeway was only known as the Edsel Ford Freeway. With a 1950's (or even late 40's!) design. Low bridges, narrow shoulders, poor lighting, draining you name it. Even if you don't expand the freeway, you would want a rebuild to bring a 70-year old road into the 21st Century.
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on January 06, 2022, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on January 05, 2022, 10:11:06 PM
WB I-94 is getting closed between I-75 and Connor for bridge replacement in advance of the I-94 widening
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2022/01/05/wb-94-between-75-connor-detroit-close-weekend-construction/9102963002/
This is one of those rare freeway expansion projects that I am skeptical of. The EIS bases the need for the extra lane on a 29%(!) increase in traffic forecast by 2040.
You have a point, though the work would need to happen for another reason: life-cycle. You may not know, but this road predates the interstate system. When the highway was built, I-94 did not exist yet. The freeway was only known as the Edsel Ford Freeway. With a 1950's (or even late 40's!) design. Low bridges, narrow shoulders, poor lighting, draining you name it. Even if you don't expand the freeway, you would want a rebuild to bring a 70-year old road into the 21st Century.
I remembered a few times that I was on Interstate 94 in Detroit a couple of years ago and some of the lights were completely out.
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on January 06, 2022, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on January 06, 2022, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on January 05, 2022, 10:11:06 PM
WB I-94 is getting closed between I-75 and Connor for bridge replacement in advance of the I-94 widening
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2022/01/05/wb-94-between-75-connor-detroit-close-weekend-construction/9102963002/
This is one of those rare freeway expansion projects that I am skeptical of. The EIS bases the need for the extra lane on a 29%(!) increase in traffic forecast by 2040.
You have a point, though the work would need to happen for another reason: life-cycle. You may not know, but this road predates the interstate system. When the highway was built, I-94 did not exist yet. The freeway was only known as the Edsel Ford Freeway. With a 1950's (or even late 40's!) design. Low bridges, narrow shoulders, poor lighting, draining you name it. Even if you don't expand the freeway, you would want a rebuild to bring a 70-year old road into the 21st Century.
I remembered a few times that I was on Interstate 94 in Detroit a couple of years ago and some of the lights were completely out.
For a while there, the big thing in Detroit was people actually stealing the copper wiring in the streetlight systems.
I-94 has been in dire need of an upgrade throughout the entire state. It drops from six lanes to four lanes after the I-196 interchange then widens back to six lanes in the Kalamazoo area for a few miles, then back down to four lanes through Jackson and into Ann Arbor then regain six lanes through Detroit and four lanes again after leaving the Detroit area heading to Port Huron.
It should remain six lanes all the way from where it becomes four lanes at I-196 all the way to about the Belleville area and then become eight lanes into Detroit, between I-96 and Conner it should be ten lanes then back down to eight lanes after Conner to 23 Mile where it'd go back to six lanes the rest of the way to Port Huron. I'm super tired of sitting in a mess on I-94 every damn time I use the highway it's always clogged up with truck traffic that is barely moving highway speeds and holding a bunch of traffic up. I-94 is outdated throughout the entire state if you ask me.
Same with US-23 all the way from Flint to Toledo it's nothing but a bottleneck every day it's ridiculous that MDOT has done nothing to improve this highway other than add a stupid flex lane bullshit that they think solves the traffic problems. US-23 is outdated and has traffic volumes that exceed 70,000 VPD and it's four freaking lanes for a majority of the trip between Flint and the Ohio line, what Ohio does is on them.
Both these have been problems for years and MDOT has done very little to improve the quality of these corridors. US-23 has become an alternate route of I-75 and a western bypass of the Detroit area for long distance traffic on I-75 that doesn't have any stops in between Flint and Perrysburg. It isn't quite as bad south of Ann Arbor like through Milan and Dundee but north of Ann Arbor and through Ann Arbor it's a nightmare.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2022, 08:55:41 PM
I-94 has been in dire need of an upgrade throughout the entire state. It drops from six lanes to four lanes after the I-196 interchange then widens back to six lanes in the Kalamazoo area for a few miles, then back down to four lanes through Jackson and into Ann Arbor then regain six lanes through Detroit and four lanes again after leaving the Detroit area heading to Port Huron.
It should remain six lanes all the way from where it becomes four lanes at I-196 all the way to about the Belleville area and then become eight lanes into Detroit, between I-96 and Conner it should be ten lanes then back down to eight lanes after Conner to 23 Mile where it'd go back to six lanes the rest of the way to Port Huron. I'm super tired of sitting in a mess on I-94 every damn time I use the highway it's always clogged up with truck traffic that is barely moving highway speeds and holding a bunch of traffic up. I-94 is outdated throughout the entire state if you ask me.
Same with US-23 all the way from Flint to Toledo it's nothing but a bottleneck every day it's ridiculous that MDOT has done nothing to improve this highway other than add a stupid flex lane bullshit that they think solves the traffic problems. US-23 is outdated and has traffic volumes that exceed 70,000 VPD and it's four freaking lanes for a majority of the trip between Flint and the Ohio line, what Ohio does is on them.
Both these have been problems for years and MDOT has done very little to improve the quality of these corridors. US-23 has become an alternate route of I-75 and a western bypass of the Detroit area for long distance traffic on I-75 that doesn't have any stops in between Flint and Perrysburg. It isn't quite as bad south of Ann Arbor like through Milan and Dundee but north of Ann Arbor and through Ann Arbor it's a nightmare.
I personally think I-94 should be upgraded from Baker Road in Ann Arbor all the way to 26 Mile Road in Lenox Township in Macomb County to 6 lanes. Additionally, I entirely agree that US 23 should be upgraded to six lanes, especially in Ann Arbor and all the way to Interstate 96 from Interstate 94, since the traffic is an absolute nightmare at the peak of traffic.
From a few days ago: http://www.modernize75.com/activity-by-segment/segment3/weekly-updates/20225120-mdot-receives-federal-approval-to-build-innovative-interchange-at-i-75-and-12-mile-road/
Also, an open house next month for more on the I-75 project: http://www.modernize75.com/media/b13ppiqd/i-75-modernization-2022-virtual-public-meeting.pdf
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on January 30, 2022, 11:38:25 AM
From a few days ago: http://www.modernize75.com/activity-by-segment/segment3/weekly-updates/20225120-mdot-receives-federal-approval-to-build-innovative-interchange-at-i-75-and-12-mile-road/
Innovative? DDI's aren't really that innovative anymore. They even mention the 2 DDI's that have already been built just to the north. Plus there's an older one in Auburn Hills on University Drive.
A DDI would undoubtably take up less land than the current interchange. I'd actually like to see a DDI constructed here in Madison (there are two on Interstate 39/90 in Janesville)
I understand when you question the whole innovative
Quote from: GaryV on January 30, 2022, 12:42:55 PM
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on January 30, 2022, 11:38:25 AM
From a few days ago: http://www.modernize75.com/activity-by-segment/segment3/weekly-updates/20225120-mdot-receives-federal-approval-to-build-innovative-interchange-at-i-75-and-12-mile-road/
Innovative? DDI's aren't really that innovative anymore. They even mention the 2 DDI's that have already been built just to the north. Plus there's an older one in Auburn Hills on University Drive.
I do understand completely when you question the whole innovative title for another DDI. I always felt like Michigan has always been late to the ball game when it does come to any innovation towards the freeways. I don't know if it is just me, and this may sound a little strange... but I almost get embarrassed when I drive in other states and wonder how come I don't see this here? How about the HOV for example. Is MDOT going to call that innovative when they finally get that going on I-75. 25 to 30 years way too late! Glad to see its going to happen but come on Michigan!
Although I did hear today that there is going to be an investment to make one of corridors a wireless charging highway for EVs. Not positive, but I am sure that will be a first for the US if they can make it work.
Speaking of the DDI's off 75... they work great! I only have one complaint and it is with the 14 mile DDI. The traffic signal timing needs to be delayed from Red to Green. I noticed today coming from SB I-75 left to EB 14 Mile... When the light hits green, there are still 2 to 3 cars that run through the red on 14 mile as the ramp traffic is starting to move. When the cross lights turn green and I am in front of the line... I'm always holding up for a second or two after witnessing some very close calls there.
The thing that irks me the most about MDOT right now is that they are reconstructing I-75 in Oakland County and not widening the highway when it most certainly should be widened. They are doing six lanes when in reality it should be eight lanes.
It is being widened to 8 lanes, but until it's done, only 6 lanes are being used. Supposedly the 4th lane will be HOV or toll once it gets done.
It's one thing to widen a freeway in one of the nation's fastest shrinking cities, but to claim it needs to be an HOV or toll lane is just crazy.
Only Detroit proper is losing population. Metropolitan Detroit has a mostly staple population for decades. Oakland county, Michigan has a population of 1,274 million folks as of 2020. The AADT of the I-75/12-Mile Rd interchange is 94,000. It needed 4x4 lanes 20 years ago. The interstate is 4x4 just south of I-696 so this is long overdue.
Quote from: kernals12 on February 02, 2022, 12:44:41 PM
It's one thing to widen a freeway in one of the nation's fastest shrinking cities, but to claim it needs to be an HOV or toll lane is just crazy.
It doesn't and as mentioned Metro Detroit has had a pretty stable population over the last 40-50 years. It hasn't grown much but it hasn't lost much either. Detroit itself has lost a considerable amount of population. I still think it could be stable at around a million to about 1.3 million people it should still have that but it doesn't. The Metro area though has over 4 million people and the traffic counts on I-75 in Oakland County call for a widening project which now I see is going to be HOV or toll lanes which I too think is ridiculous it should be a fourth lane in each direction. US-23 has the flex lane but I don't think that having a part time lane makes much sense, just widen it. The traffic on I-75 in Oakland County has been a major problem for years especially the closer to Detroit you get.
Quote from: Ryctor2018 on February 02, 2022, 02:14:20 PM
Only Detroit proper is losing population. Metropolitan Detroit has a mostly staple population for decades. Oakland county, Michigan has a population of 1,274 million folks as of 2020. The AADT of the I-75/12-Mile Rd interchange is 94,000. It needed 4x4 lanes 20 years ago. The interstate is 4x4 just south of I-696 so this is long overdue.
Detroit's inner ring suburbs aren't doing all that great. Sterling Heights and the townships around M-59 in Macomb County like Shelby Township, Clinton Township, Chesterfield Township and Washington Township have all grown pretty significantly over the last 30-40 years. Oakland County has seen growth like in Troy, Novi, Farmington Hills, West Bloomfield and other townships further away from Detroit while losing population in places like Southfield, Pontiac, Hazel Park, Oak Park and so on. Macomb County lost population closer to Detroit too like in Warren mainly south of 10 Mile. Harper Woods is as ghetto as Detroit now, 20 years ago it was a decent suburb and Eastland Mall was doing well but that changed in the 2000's. Harper Woods is in Wayne County though which overall lost population again.
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:32:57 AM
It is being widened to 8 lanes, but until it's done, only 6 lanes are being used. Supposedly the 4th lane will be HOV or toll once it gets done.
HOV between 6:00am and 9:00pm weekdays, and between 3:00pm and 6:0pm weekends. No tolls.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 02, 2022, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:32:57 AM
It is being widened to 8 lanes, but until it's done, only 6 lanes are being used. Supposedly the 4th lane will be HOV or toll once it gets done.
HOV between 6:00am and 9:00pm weekdays, and between 3:00pm and 6:0pm weekends. No tolls.
I can't believe they are only using these lanes part time it's like a cheap way out to be quite honest. These highways carry massive amounts of traffic and if this was another state they would have been widened years ago. I don't get how MDOT figures that six lanes is proper for I-75 in Oakland County when it carries over 100,000 VPD in some areas and their solution is to put in a part time HOV lane. This state only makes sense part of the time.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 02, 2022, 07:26:42 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 02, 2022, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:32:57 AM
It is being widened to 8 lanes, but until it's done, only 6 lanes are being used. Supposedly the 4th lane will be HOV or toll once it gets done.
HOV between 6:00am and 9:00pm weekdays, and between 3:00pm and 6:0pm weekends. No tolls.
I can't believe they are only using these lanes part time it's like a cheap way out to be quite honest. These highways carry massive amounts of traffic and if this was another state they would have been widened years ago. I don't get how MDOT figures that six lanes is proper for I-75 in Oakland County when it carries over 100,000 VPD in some areas and their solution is to put in a part time HOV lane. This state only makes sense part of the time.
The HOV lane will function as a full fourth lane outside of those hours.
https://www.modernize75.com/Project-Highlights-HOV
"HOV Lane will allow all users during off-peak operations."
Looks like there's markings in the pavement with there being two per lane. What could be placed there?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5764628,-83.1593336,3a,55y,174.54h,78.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smSmB29VrybWgkVSX9FYvOQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on February 12, 2022, 06:28:45 PM
Looks like there's markings in the pavement with there being two per lane. What could be placed there?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5764628,-83.1593336,3a,55y,174.54h,78.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smSmB29VrybWgkVSX9FYvOQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Traffic count system
I don't think they are for traffic count I think they are there so you can see the lines easier when there is glare or rainy weather.
I don't think he's talking about the lines between lanes. Rather, the octagonal shapes in the lanes, which typically are used for sensors.
Quote from: GaryV on February 15, 2022, 10:58:33 AM
I don't think he's talking about the lines between lanes. Rather, the octagonal shapes in the lanes, which typically are used for sensors.
Yes, I was talking about the octagonal shape marks within the lanes on I-75.
Southbound I-75 at the Zilwaukee Bridge is closed due to someone who jumped off the bridge.
It's sad people find their own lives so hopeless they have to end it by jumping off a bridge. If any of you find out more about the jumper, let us know.
It has reopened. However it was not a jumper as first reported but rather a pedestrian that was hit by a pickup truck. An Ortonville woman for some reason parked her vehicle on top of the bridge and ran into the path of the oncoming pickup truck. The woman was hospitalized in serious condition but expected to survive.
Thanks for the update, Flint1979.
I-75 is closed between Square Lake (exit 75) and I-696 (exit 61) in both directions.
12 Mile Road is also closed at I-75 in both directions.
Also the ramp from EB M-59 to SB I-75 is closed.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2022, 07:57:31 AM
I-75 is closed between Square Lake (exit 75) and I-696 (exit 61) in both directions.
For this weekend and next weekend
Quote
12 Mile Road is also closed at I-75 in both directions.
For most of the rest of the year as they build a DDI.
The I-75 closure is to take down bridges at Lincoln and Gardenia (effectively 10 1/2 Mile and 11 1/2 Mile roads)
They will also be installing crossovers so that 2 lanes in each direction will be sharing the southbound roadway. I believe this would be in preparation for replacing the nb bridge over 13 Mile Rd. (Sb was done last year.)
Edit: Also ramps from I-696 to nb I-75 will be closed for most of the year.
I didn't mention why it's closed but that is the reason posted above. Best alternate route would be Square Lake to Woodward to I-696 back to I-75 for SB I-75 and vice versa for NB I-75.
For other traffic currently I-275 is backed up NB from north of the US-12 exit to I-94 but that should be clear before anyone reads this.
Quote from: GaryV on February 26, 2022, 08:47:18 AM
The I-75 closure is to take down bridges at Lincoln and Gardenia (effectively 10 1/2 Mile and 11 1/2 Mile roads)
They will also be installing crossovers so that 2 lanes in each direction will be sharing the southbound roadway. I believe this would be in preparation for replacing the nb bridge over 13 Mile Rd. (Sb was done last year.)
Edit: Also ramps from I-696 to nb I-75 will be closed for most of the year.
The crossovers are not only for the northbound bridge, but for reconstruction of northbound I-75 between I-696 and a bit north of 13 Mile Road this year.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2022, 10:23:12 AM
For other traffic currently I-275 is backed up NB from north of the US-12 exit to I-94 but that should be clear before anyone reads this.
Nope. According to the revive275.org website, northbound I-275 is scheduled to be down to one lane between Eureka Road and 5 Mile Road beginning today through early March. I'm guessing this is for lane realignment and placement of the temporary Jersey median barrier in preparation for putting all traffic on the northbound side while the southbound side is reconstructed this year. Then it will be two lanes in each direction through the end of the year. Interestingly, the mi.gov/drive traffic map currently shows the northbound slowdown but nothing about the lane closure.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 26, 2022, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 26, 2022, 08:47:18 AM
The I-75 closure is to take down bridges at Lincoln and Gardenia (effectively 10 1/2 Mile and 11 1/2 Mile roads)
They will also be installing crossovers so that 2 lanes in each direction will be sharing the southbound roadway. I believe this would be in preparation for replacing the nb bridge over 13 Mile Rd. (Sb was done last year.)
Edit: Also ramps from I-696 to nb I-75 will be closed for most of the year.
The crossovers are not only for the northbound bridge, but for reconstruction of northbound I-75 between I-696 and a bit north of 13 Mile Road this year.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2022, 10:23:12 AM
For other traffic currently I-275 is backed up NB from north of the US-12 exit to I-94 but that should be clear before anyone reads this.
Nope. According to the revive275.org website, northbound I-275 is scheduled to be down to one lane between Eureka Road and 5 Mile Road beginning today through early March. I'm guessing this is for lane realignment and placement of the temporary Jersey median barrier in preparation for putting all traffic on the northbound side while the southbound side is reconstructed this year. Then it will be two lanes in each direction through the end of the year. Interestingly, the mi.gov/drive traffic map currently shows the northbound slowdown but nothing about the lane closure.
That was the backup when I made the post. It's now backed up from Ann Arbor Road to Ecorse Road.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2022, 11:17:13 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 26, 2022, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 26, 2022, 08:47:18 AM
The I-75 closure is to take down bridges at Lincoln and Gardenia (effectively 10 1/2 Mile and 11 1/2 Mile roads)
They will also be installing crossovers so that 2 lanes in each direction will be sharing the southbound roadway. I believe this would be in preparation for replacing the nb bridge over 13 Mile Rd. (Sb was done last year.)
Edit: Also ramps from I-696 to nb I-75 will be closed for most of the year.
The crossovers are not only for the northbound bridge, but for reconstruction of northbound I-75 between I-696 and a bit north of 13 Mile Road this year.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2022, 10:23:12 AM
For other traffic currently I-275 is backed up NB from north of the US-12 exit to I-94 but that should be clear before anyone reads this.
Nope. According to the revive275.org website, northbound I-275 is scheduled to be down to one lane between Eureka Road and 5 Mile Road beginning today through early March. I'm guessing this is for lane realignment and placement of the temporary Jersey median barrier in preparation for putting all traffic on the northbound side while the southbound side is reconstructed this year. Then it will be two lanes in each direction through the end of the year. Interestingly, the mi.gov/drive traffic map currently shows the northbound slowdown but nothing about the lane closure.
That was the backup when I made the post. It's now backed up from Ann Arbor Road to Ecorse Road.
I was responding to your "should be clear before anyone reads this" comment. There will be traffic backups for the rest of the year.
An update on plans to turn 375 into a boulevard: https://www.michigan.gov/whitmer/0,9309,7-387-90499_90640-578777--,00.html
QuoteDETROIT, Mich. - Governor Gretchen Whitmer announces that the State of Michigan is moving forward with plans to replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an urban boulevard to spur economic development and provide easier access between adjacent areas of Detroit. The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) has concluded their environmental review process after securing a Finding of No Significant Impact (FONSI), which allows the project to advance to the design phase, beginning this spring.
This is quite telling. Michigan is about 1/3 larger than Indiana in both population and area. So, one might think that Michigan would have more to report on than Indiana, road and highway wise. Yet Indiana Notes has 3 times as many pages as Michigan Notes. I'm guessing it's because Indiana has a much better DOT system and a state government that addresses road and highway needs and does so in a much more timely fashion.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:27:06 PM
This is quite telling. Michigan is about 1/3 larger than Indiana in both population and area. So, one might think that Michigan would have more to report on than Indiana, road and highway wise. Yet Indiana Notes has 3 times as many pages as Michigan Notes. I'm guessing it's because Indiana has a much better DOT system and a state government that addresses road and highway needs and does so in a much more timely fashion.
The general Ohio thread seems to be the loser in the Midwest board for the number of pages as of now.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:27:06 PM
This is quite telling. Michigan is about 1/3 larger than Indiana in both population and area. So, one might think that Michigan would have more to report on than Indiana, road and highway wise. Yet Indiana Notes has 3 times as many pages as Michigan Notes. I'm guessing it's because Indiana has a much better DOT system and a state government that addresses road and highway needs and does so in a much more timely fashion.
All you really need to do is consider how many (how few) major Michigan road projects have actually been completed in recent years.
Or maybe it's just based on the forum population. Many people come from Illinois and that's not a state that comes to mind first when I think of "lots of new roads".
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:27:06 PM
This is quite telling. Michigan is about 1/3 larger than Indiana in both population and area. So, one might think that Michigan would have more to report on than Indiana, road and highway wise. Yet Indiana Notes has 3 times as many pages as Michigan Notes. I'm guessing it's because Indiana has a much better DOT system and a state government that addresses road and highway needs and does so in a much more timely fashion.
It's probably got more to do with the amount of people from the forum that are from Michigan and Indiana. I've posted in the Indiana Notes thread before too considering Indiana is basically my second state after Michigan. But there seems to be more people posting from Indiana and areas around Indiana than Michigan.
I went to Michigan over the last weekend to visit family. This was the talk on the local media broadcast:
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11008_95058---,00.html
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2022/03/20/3-year-flex-route-project-begin-monday-96-oakland-county/7055774001/
https://www.clickondetroit.com/traffic/2022/03/14/3-year-project-to-rebuild-part-of-i-96-add-flex-route-in-oakland-county-to-begin-march-21/
This is similar to the flex lanes on US-23 between Ann Arbor and Brighton.
The Mackinac Bridge has been reopened. It was closed for 12 hours yesterday due to ice falling from the cables and towers.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 25, 2022, 09:32:26 AM
The Mackinac Bridge has been reopened. It was closed for 12 hours yesterday due to ice falling from the cables and towers.
As of 9am Eastern this morning it closed again for the falling ice issue. No timetable for reopening.
SM-G991U
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 25, 2022, 09:50:41 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 25, 2022, 09:32:26 AM
The Mackinac Bridge has been reopened. It was closed for 12 hours yesterday due to ice falling from the cables and towers.
As of 9am Eastern this morning it closed again for the falling ice issue. No timetable for reopening.
SM-G991U
Yeah it's closed again for the same reason. As of right now at 11:46am it is closed.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:27:06 PM
This is quite telling. Michigan is about 1/3 larger than Indiana in both population and area. So, one might think that Michigan would have more to report on than Indiana, road and highway wise. Yet Indiana Notes has 3 times as many pages as Michigan Notes. I'm guessing it's because Indiana has a much better DOT system and a state government that addresses road and highway needs and does so in a much more timely fashion.
The only thing telling is your uninformed bias against MDOT. Really, you're basing its performance by the number of road enthusiasts' posts on a message board? Well, the Ohio thread has about the same number of posts as this thread (proportionally, based on its age); should we conclude that ODOT is a failure? I'd guess the disparity in number of posts also has something to do with the number of projects actually commented and the number of responses to any such comments. Maybe get some actual hard information, such as total number and dollar value of projects in both states, and then get back to us.
I'm not saying there's not a difference in how the states address road needs; only that counting the number of user posts here certainly isn't the way to identify it.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 25, 2022, 11:57:36 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:27:06 PM
This is quite telling. Michigan is about 1/3 larger than Indiana in both population and area. So, one might think that Michigan would have more to report on than Indiana, road and highway wise. Yet Indiana Notes has 3 times as many pages as Michigan Notes. I'm guessing it's because Indiana has a much better DOT system and a state government that addresses road and highway needs and does so in a much more timely fashion.
The only thing telling is your uninformed bias against MDOT. Really, you're basing its performance by the number of road enthusiasts' posts on a message board? Well, the Ohio thread has about the same number of posts as this thread (proportionally, based on its age); should we conclude that ODOT is a failure? I'd guess the disparity in number of posts also has something to do with the number of projects actually commented and the number of responses to any such comments. Maybe get some actual hard information, such as total number and dollar value of projects in both states, and then get back to us.
I'm not saying there's not a difference in how the states address road needs; only that counting the number of user posts here certainly isn't the way to identify it.
Take a chill pill.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 25, 2022, 11:46:14 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 25, 2022, 09:50:41 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 25, 2022, 09:32:26 AM
The Mackinac Bridge has been reopened. It was closed for 12 hours yesterday due to ice falling from the cables and towers.
As of 9am Eastern this morning it closed again for the falling ice issue. No timetable for reopening.
SM-G991U
Yeah it's closed again for the same reason. As of right now at 11:46am it is closed.
A woman stuck waiting on one end of the bridge decided she had enough and tried to make a run for it, but didn't get very far.
https://www.audacy.com/wccoradio/news/national/69-year-old-woman-tired-of-waiting-tries-to-cross-closed-mackinac-bridge?utm_campaign=www.audacy.com%252Fwccoradio&utm_content=1648563030&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=WCCO-AM&fbclid=IwAR0_uFWF2jeiqT6Bwxdz_F2QSQbn6oayvYYb7CyOr5TyT6GcN0KrbIwEDsQ
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 29, 2022, 11:13:07 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 25, 2022, 11:46:14 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 25, 2022, 09:50:41 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 25, 2022, 09:32:26 AM
The Mackinac Bridge has been reopened. It was closed for 12 hours yesterday due to ice falling from the cables and towers.
As of 9am Eastern this morning it closed again for the falling ice issue. No timetable for reopening.
SM-G991U
Yeah it's closed again for the same reason. As of right now at 11:46am it is closed.
A woman stuck waiting on one end of the bridge decided she had enough and tried to make a run for it, but didn't get very far.
https://www.audacy.com/wccoradio/news/national/69-year-old-woman-tired-of-waiting-tries-to-cross-closed-mackinac-bridge?utm_campaign=www.audacy.com%252Fwccoradio&utm_content=1648563030&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=WCCO-AM&fbclid=IwAR0_uFWF2jeiqT6Bwxdz_F2QSQbn6oayvYYb7CyOr5TyT6GcN0KrbIwEDsQ
They never get too far before getting caught. Pretty dumb move on her part.
Grand Radsips is a new control city on a Michigan Freeway ramp to I-96 eastbound somewhere between Muskegon and the aforementioned city.
Someone posted a photo of the spelling error on FB the other day.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 20, 2022, 03:08:39 PM
Grand Radsips is a new control city on a Michigan Freeway ramp to I-96 eastbound somewhere between Muskegon and the aforementioned city.
Someone posted a photo of the spelling error on FB the other day.
48th Avenue (Exit 19)
Don't sign manufacturers know how to spell? R-a-d-s-i-p-s is not how you spell Rapids. Even a brain-dead idiot would know that!
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 20, 2022, 03:22:40 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 20, 2022, 03:08:39 PM
Grand Radsips is a new control city on a Michigan Freeway ramp to I-96 eastbound somewhere between Muskegon and the aforementioned city.
Someone posted a photo of the spelling error on FB the other day.
48th Avenue (Exit 19)
Actually, it was posted as Grand Radips. Coopersville was posted as Cooperville.
https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/local/mdot-sign-typos/69-d0691a6a-dc86-4a84-b893-d66b13946ec4
I theorize that "Grand Radips" was a mixup relating to how a lowercase "d" is an upside-down lowercase "p" (rotationally).
Quote from: roadman65 on April 20, 2022, 03:08:39 PM
Grand Radsips is a new control city on a Michigan Freeway ramp to I-96 eastbound somewhere between Muskegon and the aforementioned city.
Someone posted a photo of the spelling error on FB the other day.
Someone must have been celebrating 4/20 while they were making the sign.......
MDOT released a video discussing closures on the Mackinac Bridge for falling ice, complete with video of that falling ice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcP3AMGBNGs
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 20, 2022, 05:21:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 20, 2022, 03:22:40 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 20, 2022, 03:08:39 PM
Grand Radsips is a new control city on a Michigan Freeway ramp to I-96 eastbound somewhere between Muskegon and the aforementioned city.
Someone posted a photo of the spelling error on FB the other day.
48th Avenue (Exit 19)
Actually, it was posted as Grand Radips. Coopersville was posted as Cooperville.
https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/local/mdot-sign-typos/69-d0691a6a-dc86-4a84-b893-d66b13946ec4
Right. The d and p were in the wrong places. At least they spelled Grand right.
I thought "Radsips" would be an allusion to the number of breweries in the area. ;)
But as it is, that looks to me like a simple typo that slipped through whatever quality control process exists at either MDOT or the contractor.
Does anyone know anything additional about this?: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mdot-us-23-overpass-hit-needs-emergency-repairs/ar-AAXJcO8?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=225ac65fd7c74dc6b35160a80e0b7272.
Lots of low overpasses (< 16 ft) on that section of US-23, but nothing that a normal load would have a problem with.
SM-G991U
That WILL be a problem if MDOT doesn't get that done quickly. Tomorrow is Thursday and by Friday the Memorial Day weekend traffic is going to be very heavy going north on both US-23 and I-75.
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
Looks like US-23 @ Hill Rd will be reopened Thursday morning. They have some good pictures of the damage to the bridge, which looks like it's repairable without having to demolish. That particular bridge is newer and looks like it's has at least 16' of clearance (no clearance signage is posted).
https://nbc25news.com/news/local/freeway-closed-after-vehicle-crash (https://nbc25news.com/news/local/freeway-closed-after-vehicle-crash)
Street view: https://goo.gl/maps/B7BeCAt59z1SGdjJ9 (https://goo.gl/maps/B7BeCAt59z1SGdjJ9)
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 25, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
You're talking about the Parish Road overpass. They had that completely demolished last year and are rebuilding it now it should be done later this year. This was all part of a $29 million project to rebuild 5 miles of I-75 in that area.
I-75 will probably back up in this area. M-13 or 7 Mile Road work good for alternate routes to I-75 in that area.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 25, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
You're talking about the Parish Road overpass. They had that completely demolished last year and are rebuilding it now it should be done later this year. This was all part of a $29 million project to rebuild 5 miles of I-75 in that area.
I-75 will probably back up in this area. M-13 or 7 Mile Road work good for alternate routes to I-75 in that area.
It doesn't look like any work is being done on the bridge and nothing has been done for a very long time.
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 01:15:23 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 25, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
You're talking about the Parish Road overpass. They had that completely demolished last year and are rebuilding it now it should be done later this year. This was all part of a $29 million project to rebuild 5 miles of I-75 in that area.
I-75 will probably back up in this area. M-13 or 7 Mile Road work good for alternate routes to I-75 in that area.
It doesn't look like any work is being done on the bridge and nothing has been done for a very long time.
They just started that project last year and had it completely shut down over the winter. It's been a little while since I've been through there I'll have to look and see if they are doing any work when I go through there next time. It's only about 20 miles from my house.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 11:12:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 01:15:23 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 25, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
You're talking about the Parish Road overpass. They had that completely demolished last year and are rebuilding it now it should be done later this year. This was all part of a $29 million project to rebuild 5 miles of I-75 in that area.
I-75 will probably back up in this area. M-13 or 7 Mile Road work good for alternate routes to I-75 in that area.
It doesn't look like any work is being done on the bridge and nothing has been done for a very long time.
They just started that project last year and had it completely shut down over the winter. It's been a little while since I've been through there I'll have to look and see if they are doing any work when I go through there next time. It's only about 20 miles from my house.
I go through there a couple of times a week. There's nothing going on. Maybe they'll start back up after Memorial Day, but it almost looks like the project has been abandoned. There's some construction equipment shoved off to the side, but it just looks like a very odd place to leave the bridge hanging, and it seems like it's been like that since long before winter arrived.
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 11:12:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 01:15:23 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 25, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
You're talking about the Parish Road overpass. They had that completely demolished last year and are rebuilding it now it should be done later this year. This was all part of a $29 million project to rebuild 5 miles of I-75 in that area.
I-75 will probably back up in this area. M-13 or 7 Mile Road work good for alternate routes to I-75 in that area.
It doesn't look like any work is being done on the bridge and nothing has been done for a very long time.
They just started that project last year and had it completely shut down over the winter. It's been a little while since I've been through there I'll have to look and see if they are doing any work when I go through there next time. It's only about 20 miles from my house.
I go through there a couple of times a week. There's nothing going on. Maybe they'll start back up after Memorial Day, but it almost looks like the project has been abandoned. There's some construction equipment shoved off to the side, but it just looks like a very odd place to leave the bridge hanging, and it seems like it's been like that since long before winter arrived.
I was just through there about an hour ago and got off at the Linwood exit and went around to both sides of it and there isn't anything going on. I'm sure it's something that they are going to get back to because there wasn't any construction on I-75 itself either so nothing is going on at the present moment on this project. The bridge was demolished in April 2021 but it seems like work has been going on in Bay, Saginaw and Genesee counties forever on I-75. I'm not complaining about the construction in Oakland County too much and that is a different region of MDOT anyway.
But still it says that the project resumed in April 2022 and will be complete in August 2022. It's almost June and I see a stalled construction site.
What I'd really like to know is when is MDOT ever going to do anything with US-23 between Flint and the state line? I mean seriously this highway is a joke. The flex lanes they added really don't do that much to help and it's ridiculous that they would even think of such a stupid idea because the idea of a part time lane is downright stupid. It's like this highway has been neglected and it's a pretty important highway in the state even though it didn't start out that way. People get over well too early for the I-96 interchange in both directions which for Detroit bound traffic SB has a left lane exit and for Lansing bound traffic NB has a left lane exit that cause massive backups in the area, they'll get over and drive too slow for the left lane for over a mile at times. It's been this way for years and MDOT hasn't done anything about it. The pavement quality is horrible in some areas as well, it's four lanes for almost the entire stretch except for the stupid flex lanes when they are open and the concurrency with M-14.
It's time to get cracking on this. Starting at the Ohio border this highway should be four lanes until you get to Milan then it should be six lanes until I-94, then eight lanes until M-59, then six lanes until I-75. North of Flint on the concurrency with I-75 it's fine. I-75 itself should be more than four lanes between MM's 111 and 115 as well.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 03:56:20 PM
North of Flint on the concurrency with I-75 it's fine.
The concurrency needs 3 lanes each way from north of Bay City to the split near Standish.
Quote from: GaryV on May 26, 2022, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 03:56:20 PM
North of Flint on the concurrency with I-75 it's fine.
The concurrency needs 3 lanes each way from north of Bay City to the split near Standish.
That wouldn't be a bad idea. It gets a lot of traffic going north on Friday's and south on Sunday's in the summer and hunting season and the US-23 split is where a lot of traffic separates going to and coming from the north. I-75 dips under 10,000 VPD north of the M-55 Houghton Lake exit but maintains about 20,000 VPD in the stretch between Bay City and Standish.
At the US-23 split in Flint there is almost 90,000 VPD using that stretch between MM 115 and 117. It maintains over 60,000 VPD along the six lane stretch between MM 117 and 125. I've looked all along US-23 between Flint and the Ohio border and it doesn't drop below 40,000 VPD at all, no way should the majority of this highway only be four lanes.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 03:43:54 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 11:12:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 01:15:23 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 25, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
You're talking about the Parish Road overpass. They had that completely demolished last year and are rebuilding it now it should be done later this year. This was all part of a $29 million project to rebuild 5 miles of I-75 in that area.
I-75 will probably back up in this area. M-13 or 7 Mile Road work good for alternate routes to I-75 in that area.
It doesn't look like any work is being done on the bridge and nothing has been done for a very long time.
They just started that project last year and had it completely shut down over the winter. It's been a little while since I've been through there I'll have to look and see if they are doing any work when I go through there next time. It's only about 20 miles from my house.
I go through there a couple of times a week. There's nothing going on. Maybe they'll start back up after Memorial Day, but it almost looks like the project has been abandoned. There's some construction equipment shoved off to the side, but it just looks like a very odd place to leave the bridge hanging, and it seems like it's been like that since long before winter arrived.
I was just through there about an hour ago and got off at the Linwood exit and went around to both sides of it and there isn't anything going on. I'm sure it's something that they are going to get back to because there wasn't any construction on I-75 itself either so nothing is going on at the present moment on this project. The bridge was demolished in April 2021 but it seems like work has been going on in Bay, Saginaw and Genesee counties forever on I-75. I'm not complaining about the construction in Oakland County too much and that is a different region of MDOT anyway.
But still it says that the project resumed in April 2022 and will be complete in August 2022. It's almost June and I see a stalled construction site.
Memorial Day is the unofficial start of Construction Season in the Upper Midwest.
Quote from: skluth on May 26, 2022, 06:05:01 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 03:43:54 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 11:12:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 01:15:23 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 25, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
You're talking about the Parish Road overpass. They had that completely demolished last year and are rebuilding it now it should be done later this year. This was all part of a $29 million project to rebuild 5 miles of I-75 in that area.
I-75 will probably back up in this area. M-13 or 7 Mile Road work good for alternate routes to I-75 in that area.
It doesn't look like any work is being done on the bridge and nothing has been done for a very long time.
They just started that project last year and had it completely shut down over the winter. It's been a little while since I've been through there I'll have to look and see if they are doing any work when I go through there next time. It's only about 20 miles from my house.
I go through there a couple of times a week. There's nothing going on. Maybe they'll start back up after Memorial Day, but it almost looks like the project has been abandoned. There's some construction equipment shoved off to the side, but it just looks like a very odd place to leave the bridge hanging, and it seems like it's been like that since long before winter arrived.
I was just through there about an hour ago and got off at the Linwood exit and went around to both sides of it and there isn't anything going on. I'm sure it's something that they are going to get back to because there wasn't any construction on I-75 itself either so nothing is going on at the present moment on this project. The bridge was demolished in April 2021 but it seems like work has been going on in Bay, Saginaw and Genesee counties forever on I-75. I'm not complaining about the construction in Oakland County too much and that is a different region of MDOT anyway.
But still it says that the project resumed in April 2022 and will be complete in August 2022. It's almost June and I see a stalled construction site.
Memorial Day is the unofficial start of Construction Season in the Upper Midwest.
Construction season started over a month ago here.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 03:43:54 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 11:12:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 26, 2022, 01:15:23 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 25, 2022, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 25, 2022, 09:28:29 PM
By the way all eight lanes are open between mile markers 148 and 150 on I-75. The median is complete and the new signs have been installed on the southbound side. I think they are just working on demolishing the rest of the old ramps and completing the project. I-75 is now eight lanes between I-475 at mile marker 125 and I-675 at mile marker 150 and eight lanes again between mile marker 155 and 164.
Do you know what the deal is with that halfway built or demolished bridge near mm 171 on I-75. It seems like it's just been sitting like that with no work being done for a couple of years now.
You're talking about the Parish Road overpass. They had that completely demolished last year and are rebuilding it now it should be done later this year. This was all part of a $29 million project to rebuild 5 miles of I-75 in that area.
I-75 will probably back up in this area. M-13 or 7 Mile Road work good for alternate routes to I-75 in that area.
It doesn't look like any work is being done on the bridge and nothing has been done for a very long time.
They just started that project last year and had it completely shut down over the winter. It's been a little while since I've been through there I'll have to look and see if they are doing any work when I go through there next time. It's only about 20 miles from my house.
I go through there a couple of times a week. There's nothing going on. Maybe they'll start back up after Memorial Day, but it almost looks like the project has been abandoned. There's some construction equipment shoved off to the side, but it just looks like a very odd place to leave the bridge hanging, and it seems like it's been like that since long before winter arrived.
I was just through there about an hour ago and got off at the Linwood exit and went around to both sides of it and there isn't anything going on. I'm sure it's something that they are going to get back to because there wasn't any construction on I-75 itself either so nothing is going on at the present moment on this project. The bridge was demolished in April 2021 but it seems like work has been going on in Bay, Saginaw and Genesee counties forever on I-75. I'm not complaining about the construction in Oakland County too much and that is a different region of MDOT anyway.
But still it says that the project resumed in April 2022 and will be complete in August 2022. It's almost June and I see a stalled construction site.
They had lanes closed on I-75 up until about a week ago just south of the bridge, but nothing has been going on with that bridge for a very long time.
Why is Flint still signed on I-275 being it will never go beyond I-96? Why was it even signed in the first place? Even InDOT is waiting to assign Indy when the last upgrade of IN 37 is completed for I-69 North.
^ I-275 North to I-96 West to US-23 North is still the fastest route to Flint.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 29, 2022, 07:15:01 AM
Why is Flint still signed on I-275 being it will never go beyond I-96? Why was it even signed in the first place? Even InDOT is waiting to assign Indy when the last upgrade of IN 37 is completed for I-69 North.
Because I-275 was originally suppose to end at I-75 near Davisburg. And you can still get to Flint going that way, signs tell you that you have to take I-96 west to US-23 north. And in 1960 Flint was the second largest city in Michigan, still in the 4th largest metro area in Michigan.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2022, 08:18:44 AM
^ I-275 North to I-96 West to US-23 North is still the fastest route to Flint.
Kinda depends on where you're coming from. If you're in Monroe, taking M-50 to US-23 north would be faster than taking I-275 to I-96. If you are already on I-75 north and coming up to I-275 it's faster by about 5 minutes to take that route. It's 8 miles further to continue on I-75. So really you could take your pick there almost.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2022, 03:56:20 PM
What I'd really like to know is when is MDOT ever going to do anything with US-23 between Flint and the state line?
Roughly about the time there are no political repercussions for hiking the fuel tax by 20-30 cents a gallon (or heaven forbid, send the 6% sales tax revenue to roads). I wouldn't hold your breath on that.
There is ZERO appetite for highway expansion in Michigan. They can't even put together a plan to FIX the roads they've got without risking political career-ending backlash for gas prices going up.
There are thousands of miles of highway in Michigan that warrants freeway conversion, widening, and so on, and thousands more that cry for simply fixing the damn potholes. Gov. Whitmer bonded for Rebuilding Michigan because she couldn't get the legislature to play ball on a gas tax hike.
Literally the only way widening is happening now is when the roadbed has to be completely rebuilt, and MDOT can scrape together a bunch of federal dollars to foot the bill. But it's a couple miles here, a couple miles there. There is no outcry for 6-laning any of the congested 4-lane freeways - at least to the extent that people are willing to pay more for gas to do it.
This is why you're seeing BS like the FlexLane popping up everywhere - because MDOT can pull that off without having to completely replace the roadbed or widen the roadway to full Interstate standard. It's also why projects like US-31 in Benton Harbor take decades to complete, why US-127 between Ithaca and St. Johns is a 70-year old divided highway segment, and why M-231 is a 2-lane middle-of-nowhere river crossing instead of a 4-lane freeway connecting Muskegon to Holland.
Meanwhile, Wisconsin in the past 30 years built thousands of miles of new expressway and freeway segments crisscrossing the state. How? They raised the gas tax to a healthy level, then indexed it to inflation so it never lost value. In comparison to other states, some folks argue Wisconsin roads are overbuilt.
Well, at least until the 2008 recession, when they killed the indexing measure. WisDOT has since lost funding relative to inflation and has had to cut budgets, and that's reflected in a lot of roads going to pot and projects delayed or canceled outright. Municipalities have had to resort to a host of measures (including wheel taxes and higher registration) to make up the difference. Without restoration of the pre-2008 funding levels, Wisconsin roads are starting to reflect that underinvestment.
Basically, you have to have a legislature and executive that will take the short-term heat for hiking fuel taxes, registration, and other fees to ensure steady highway funding. Again, don't hold your breath.
^^ If MDOT would let a private/public partnership build and operate HOT lanes along US-23 and I-94 with MDOT getting a percentage of the toll profits that must be used in other highway projects....
....Nah,...too easy!!
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
According to Google Maps, US 31 South -> Benton Center Rd -> Red Arrow Hwy is 3 minutes faster than doubling back at Friday Rd
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
Oh wow...all this time I thought the I-94 East to I-196 North movement was cut off (that's what Google Maps led me to believe, anyway).
If that ramp is indeed open, I'll just go right through. It would be nice to see the work going on for the I-94/196 and US 31 reconstruction. Are they planning C/D ramps for the I-94/196 interchange?
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 01:09:04 PM
Oh wow...all this time I thought the I-94 East to I-196 North movement was cut off (that's what Google Maps led me to believe, anyway).
If that ramp is indeed open, I'll just go right through. It would be nice to see the work going on for the I-94/196 and US 31 reconstruction. Are they planning C/D ramps for the I-94/196 interchange?
No, just an auxiliary lane (or a "weave lane" as MDOT calls it)...
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/i-route-construction/i196-bridge-rebuilding-grand-rapids
MDOT will be investing $100 million to replace a set of bridges on I-196 that go over the Grand River as well as Market Avenue in Grand Rapids.
It will start in October with the closure of eastbound 196 at Market Avenue through July 2024 with traffic being detoured onto M-6 eastbound and US 131 northbound. The completion date for this project is November 2025.
If you detour on EB M-6 to NB US-131, you end up going EB on I-196 across the Grand River bridge. How does that detour work?
Quote from: GaryV on June 01, 2022, 03:35:48 PM
If you detour on EB M-6 to NB US-131, you end up going EB on I-196 across the Grand River bridge. How does that detour work?
There are TWO Grand River crossings on I-196. The one affected by the closure is by the Market Street exit, about 5 miles south and west of US 131.
The Grand River bridge crossing downtown will not be affected. That crossing is good to go (that was actually worked on last year).
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 01, 2022, 01:53:59 PM
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/i-route-construction/i196-bridge-rebuilding-grand-rapids
MDOT will be investing $100 million to replace a set of bridges on I-196 that go over the Grand River as well as Market Avenue in Grand Rapids.
It will start in October with the closure of eastbound 196 at Market Avenue through July 2024 with traffic being detoured onto M-6 eastbound and US 131 northbound. The completion date for this project is November 2025.
"Work begins this October with the closure of eastbound I-196 at Market Avenue. Eastbound I-196 will remain closed through July 2024 with traffic detoured onto eastbound M-6 to northbound US-131. The second phase of the project begins August 2024 with the closure of westbound I-196 at Market Avenue. During this phase, two lanes will be open in each direction on the new eastbound I-196 bridge."
Oh lovely! Send a lot more traffic miles out of the way up US-131. I guess 130,000+ vehicles a day isn't enough. And aren't they going to begin work on the Wealthy St bridge project during this time frame?
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 01, 2022, 09:37:55 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 01, 2022, 01:53:59 PM
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/i-route-construction/i196-bridge-rebuilding-grand-rapids
MDOT will be investing $100 million to replace a set of bridges on I-196 that go over the Grand River as well as Market Avenue in Grand Rapids.
It will start in October with the closure of eastbound 196 at Market Avenue through July 2024 with traffic being detoured onto M-6 eastbound and US 131 northbound. The completion date for this project is November 2025.
"Work begins this October with the closure of eastbound I-196 at Market Avenue. Eastbound I-196 will remain closed through July 2024 with traffic detoured onto eastbound M-6 to northbound US-131. The second phase of the project begins August 2024 with the closure of westbound I-196 at Market Avenue. During this phase, two lanes will be open in each direction on the new eastbound I-196 bridge."
Oh lovely! Send a lot more traffic miles out of the way up US-131. I guess 130,000+ vehicles a day isn't enough. And aren't they going to begin work on the Wealthy St bridge project during this time frame?
Never mind. I gues the Wealthy St bridge project is quite a ways off yet.
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
You could also just stay on M-140 and pick up I-196 in South Haven. Taking I-94 to US-131 works too. If I-69 and I-496 weren't under construction right now, I'd recommend I-94 -> I-69 -> US-127 -> I-75. Nobody's going to notice the drive time difference of any of those options.
I'm assuming your destination is east of Manistique, because otherwise enduring the Tri-State and I-94 into Milwaukee is ultimately faster.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 01, 2022, 01:53:59 PM
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/i-route-construction/i196-bridge-rebuilding-grand-rapids
MDOT will be investing $100 million to replace a set of bridges on I-196 that go over the Grand River as well as Market Avenue in Grand Rapids.
It will start in October with the closure of eastbound 196 at Market Avenue through July 2024 with traffic being detoured onto M-6 eastbound and US 131 northbound. The completion date for this project is November 2025.
That closure sounds miserable. I really hope I don't have to go in that direction anytime soon.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
I just did that very "detour" the weekend before last on my way back to Grand Rapids from Chicago: I-94, exit Napier, east to Benton Center, north to Red Arrow, east back to I-196/US-31. It's fine. The road quality is... meh. There are, I believe two or three four-way stops on Benton Center Rd and there's a stop when you turn right onto Red Arrow Hwy, but it wasn't bad. The worst part of the detour, for me, was that I and the five other cars I was behind were all following a large tanker truck that didn't get going more than 40 mph the entire time. :-(
While I, knowing the area quite well and still possessing a variety of "traditional" maps, know that's the best "local/unofficial" detour (probably, much to the chagrin of the local residents along the route!), it seems that's precisely the same route the primary mapping apps are also recommending as well (e.g. Google Maps, Waze, etc.), hence the numerous others doing the exact same thing and the large tanker truck leading us. That's probably one of my biggest pet peeves about the online mapping/routing apps–they
can give away some of the best alternate detours. But, alternately, because of my mapping background and possessing the aforementioned traditional maps, I've found many a superior alternate route the online maps/apps have no clue about and, therefore have had them all to myself as well. So, it definitely goes both ways. (For example, as long as Google and Waze keep sending Grand Rapids-to-Mackinac Straits bound traffic off US-131 down M-55 over to US-127 and up I-75... that's fine with me!! :-D You folks have fun slogging it along M-55 together. You can't pay me enough to take that route!!)
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 12:24:33 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
I just did that very "detour" the weekend before last on my way back to Grand Rapids from Chicago: I-94, exit Napier, east to Benton Center, north to Red Arrow, east back to I-196/US-31. It's fine. The road quality is... meh. There are, I believe two or three four-way stops on Benton Center Rd and there's a stop when you turn right onto Red Arrow Hwy, but it wasn't bad. The worst part of the detour, for me, was that I and the five other cars I was behind were all following a large tanker truck that didn't get going more than 40 mph the entire time. :-(
While I, knowing the area quite well and still possessing a variety of "traditional" maps, know that's the best "local/unofficial" detour (probably, much to the chagrin of the local residents along the route!), it seems that's precisely the same route the primary mapping apps are also recommending as well (e.g. Google Maps, Waze, etc.), hence the numerous others doing the exact same thing and the large tanker truck leading us. That's probably one of my biggest pet peeves about the online mapping/routing apps–they can give away some of the best alternate detours. But, alternately, because of my mapping background and possessing the aforementioned traditional maps, I've found many a superior alternate route the online maps/apps have no clue about and, therefore have had them all to myself as well. So, it definitely goes both ways. (For example, as long as Google and Waze keep sending Grand Rapids-to-Mackinac Straits bound traffic off US-131 down M-55 over to US-127 and up I-75... that's fine with me!! :-D You folks have fun slogging it along M-55 together. You can't pay me enough to take that route!!)
Really? M-55? Cutting over on M-72 @ Kalkaska would make more sense.
They don't even have you staying on M-55 the whole way. There is a bypass of Lake City that they include. They tell you to take M-55 to M-66 to Lotan Road to Vandermeulen Road back to M-55 then to US-127.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 03, 2022, 01:54:13 AM
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 12:24:33 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
I just did that very "detour" the weekend before last on my way back to Grand Rapids from Chicago: I-94, exit Napier, east to Benton Center, north to Red Arrow, east back to I-196/US-31. It's fine. The road quality is... meh. There are, I believe two or three four-way stops on Benton Center Rd and there's a stop when you turn right onto Red Arrow Hwy, but it wasn't bad. The worst part of the detour, for me, was that I and the five other cars I was behind were all following a large tanker truck that didn't get going more than 40 mph the entire time. :-(
While I, knowing the area quite well and still possessing a variety of "traditional" maps, know that's the best "local/unofficial" detour (probably, much to the chagrin of the local residents along the route!), it seems that's precisely the same route the primary mapping apps are also recommending as well (e.g. Google Maps, Waze, etc.), hence the numerous others doing the exact same thing and the large tanker truck leading us. That's probably one of my biggest pet peeves about the online mapping/routing apps–they can give away some of the best alternate detours. But, alternately, because of my mapping background and possessing the aforementioned traditional maps, I've found many a superior alternate route the online maps/apps have no clue about and, therefore have had them all to myself as well. So, it definitely goes both ways. (For example, as long as Google and Waze keep sending Grand Rapids-to-Mackinac Straits bound traffic off US-131 down M-55 over to US-127 and up I-75... that's fine with me!! :-D You folks have fun slogging it along M-55 together. You can't pay me enough to take that route!!)
Really? M-55? Cutting over on M-72 @ Kalkaska would make more sense.
But then you are going SE toward Grayling so you are more less back tracking.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 03, 2022, 06:59:48 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 03, 2022, 01:54:13 AM
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 12:24:33 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
I just did that very "detour" the weekend before last on my way back to Grand Rapids from Chicago: I-94, exit Napier, east to Benton Center, north to Red Arrow, east back to I-196/US-31. It's fine. The road quality is... meh. There are, I believe two or three four-way stops on Benton Center Rd and there's a stop when you turn right onto Red Arrow Hwy, but it wasn't bad. The worst part of the detour, for me, was that I and the five other cars I was behind were all following a large tanker truck that didn't get going more than 40 mph the entire time. :-(
While I, knowing the area quite well and still possessing a variety of "traditional" maps, know that's the best "local/unofficial" detour (probably, much to the chagrin of the local residents along the route!), it seems that's precisely the same route the primary mapping apps are also recommending as well (e.g. Google Maps, Waze, etc.), hence the numerous others doing the exact same thing and the large tanker truck leading us. That's probably one of my biggest pet peeves about the online mapping/routing apps–they can give away some of the best alternate detours. But, alternately, because of my mapping background and possessing the aforementioned traditional maps, I've found many a superior alternate route the online maps/apps have no clue about and, therefore have had them all to myself as well. So, it definitely goes both ways. (For example, as long as Google and Waze keep sending Grand Rapids-to-Mackinac Straits bound traffic off US-131 down M-55 over to US-127 and up I-75... that's fine with me!! :-D You folks have fun slogging it along M-55 together. You can't pay me enough to take that route!!)
Really? M-55? Cutting over on M-72 @ Kalkaska would make more sense.
But then you are going SE toward Grayling so you are more less back tracking.
I've done the M-55 cutoff multiple times (including that Lake City bypass) to get from SW Michigan to the UP (and I found that "bypass" well before Waze would route me that way). I've found that faster than I-94 to I-69 to US 127, taking US 10 across to Claire, or going up to M-72.
Though it's been a few years since I've been on 131 north of Cadillac. Have they raised the speed limit on the two lane portion to 65, or are they only doing that in the UP?
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 03, 2022, 06:59:48 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 03, 2022, 01:54:13 AM
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 12:24:33 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
I just did that very "detour" the weekend before last on my way back to Grand Rapids from Chicago: I-94, exit Napier, east to Benton Center, north to Red Arrow, east back to I-196/US-31. It's fine. The road quality is... meh. There are, I believe two or three four-way stops on Benton Center Rd and there's a stop when you turn right onto Red Arrow Hwy, but it wasn't bad. The worst part of the detour, for me, was that I and the five other cars I was behind were all following a large tanker truck that didn't get going more than 40 mph the entire time. :-(
While I, knowing the area quite well and still possessing a variety of "traditional" maps, know that's the best "local/unofficial" detour (probably, much to the chagrin of the local residents along the route!), it seems that's precisely the same route the primary mapping apps are also recommending as well (e.g. Google Maps, Waze, etc.), hence the numerous others doing the exact same thing and the large tanker truck leading us. That's probably one of my biggest pet peeves about the online mapping/routing apps–they can give away some of the best alternate detours. But, alternately, because of my mapping background and possessing the aforementioned traditional maps, I've found many a superior alternate route the online maps/apps have no clue about and, therefore have had them all to myself as well. So, it definitely goes both ways. (For example, as long as Google and Waze keep sending Grand Rapids-to-Mackinac Straits bound traffic off US-131 down M-55 over to US-127 and up I-75... that's fine with me!! :-D You folks have fun slogging it along M-55 together. You can't pay me enough to take that route!!)
Really? M-55? Cutting over on M-72 @ Kalkaska would make more sense.
But then you are going SE toward Grayling so you are more less back tracking.
Correct. US-131 north to M-72 east (technically east-southeast) to I-75 north is NOT advised. You're definitely going out of your way and M-72 generally has a decent amount of traffic as well. You're competing with traffic heading from greater Traverse City heading toward I-75 to head back toward the Tri-Cities, Flint and Metro Detroit areas. Best to be avoided.
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 11:50:02 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 03, 2022, 06:59:48 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 03, 2022, 01:54:13 AM
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 12:24:33 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
I just did that very "detour" the weekend before last on my way back to Grand Rapids from Chicago: I-94, exit Napier, east to Benton Center, north to Red Arrow, east back to I-196/US-31. It's fine. The road quality is... meh. There are, I believe two or three four-way stops on Benton Center Rd and there's a stop when you turn right onto Red Arrow Hwy, but it wasn't bad. The worst part of the detour, for me, was that I and the five other cars I was behind were all following a large tanker truck that didn't get going more than 40 mph the entire time. :-(
While I, knowing the area quite well and still possessing a variety of "traditional" maps, know that's the best "local/unofficial" detour (probably, much to the chagrin of the local residents along the route!), it seems that's precisely the same route the primary mapping apps are also recommending as well (e.g. Google Maps, Waze, etc.), hence the numerous others doing the exact same thing and the large tanker truck leading us. That's probably one of my biggest pet peeves about the online mapping/routing apps–they can give away some of the best alternate detours. But, alternately, because of my mapping background and possessing the aforementioned traditional maps, I've found many a superior alternate route the online maps/apps have no clue about and, therefore have had them all to myself as well. So, it definitely goes both ways. (For example, as long as Google and Waze keep sending Grand Rapids-to-Mackinac Straits bound traffic off US-131 down M-55 over to US-127 and up I-75... that's fine with me!! :-D You folks have fun slogging it along M-55 together. You can't pay me enough to take that route!!)
Really? M-55? Cutting over on M-72 @ Kalkaska would make more sense.
But then you are going SE toward Grayling so you are more less back tracking.
Correct. US-131 north to M-72 east (technically east-southeast) to I-75 north is NOT advised. You're definitely going out of your way and M-72 generally has a decent amount of traffic as well. You're competing with traffic heading from greater Traverse City heading toward I-75 to head back toward the Tri-Cities, Flint and Metro Detroit areas. Best to be avoided.
Well it's like 25 miles and you aren't going in the direction you want to be going in so that makes sense not to use M-72. Now using Alba Road to M-32 would be a better choice than using M-72 but still you would get caught up in the Gaylord area. Using US-10 to cut over adds a few more miles and is only 9 minutes longer.
Quote from: zzcarp on June 03, 2022, 10:15:59 AM
I've done the M-55 cutoff multiple times (including that Lake City bypass) to get from SW Michigan to the UP (and I found that "bypass" well before Waze would route me that way). I've found that faster than I-94 to I-69 to US 127, taking US 10 across to Claire, or going up to M-72.
Though it's been a few years since I've been on 131 north of Cadillac. Have they raised the speed limit on the two lane portion to 65, or are they only doing that in the UP?
Neither. There are a variety of 65 stretches in the Lower Peninsula. Unfortunately, the criteria for what got bumped up to 65 and what remains 55 is rather inane so, alas, US-131 from Manton to Petoskey remains
posted at 55... which means traffic generally moves around 62—67, depending on a variety of factors.
My tried-and-true route to Gaylord, the Straits and/or the U.P., even though Google Maps or Waze will try to tell you it's 3—4 minutes longer than the M-55-to-US-127 route (which it never is), is to stay on US-131 to Alba and take C-42 to M-32 to I-75 at Gaylord. Even though traffic volumes on C-42 have definitely increased in the past decade or so, it's still the route I suggest to anyone that I don't dislike. Even with bypassing Lake City on the local roads, you can't pay me any amount of money to take M-55...
Quote from: zzcarp on June 03, 2022, 10:15:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 03, 2022, 06:59:48 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 03, 2022, 01:54:13 AM
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 12:24:33 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
I just did that very "detour" the weekend before last on my way back to Grand Rapids from Chicago: I-94, exit Napier, east to Benton Center, north to Red Arrow, east back to I-196/US-31. It's fine. The road quality is... meh. There are, I believe two or three four-way stops on Benton Center Rd and there's a stop when you turn right onto Red Arrow Hwy, but it wasn't bad. The worst part of the detour, for me, was that I and the five other cars I was behind were all following a large tanker truck that didn't get going more than 40 mph the entire time. :-(
While I, knowing the area quite well and still possessing a variety of "traditional" maps, know that's the best "local/unofficial" detour (probably, much to the chagrin of the local residents along the route!), it seems that's precisely the same route the primary mapping apps are also recommending as well (e.g. Google Maps, Waze, etc.), hence the numerous others doing the exact same thing and the large tanker truck leading us. That's probably one of my biggest pet peeves about the online mapping/routing apps–they can give away some of the best alternate detours. But, alternately, because of my mapping background and possessing the aforementioned traditional maps, I've found many a superior alternate route the online maps/apps have no clue about and, therefore have had them all to myself as well. So, it definitely goes both ways. (For example, as long as Google and Waze keep sending Grand Rapids-to-Mackinac Straits bound traffic off US-131 down M-55 over to US-127 and up I-75... that's fine with me!! :-D You folks have fun slogging it along M-55 together. You can't pay me enough to take that route!!)
Really? M-55? Cutting over on M-72 @ Kalkaska would make more sense.
But then you are going SE toward Grayling so you are more less back tracking.
I've done the M-55 cutoff multiple times (including that Lake City bypass) to get from SW Michigan to the UP (and I found that "bypass" well before Waze would route me that way). I've found that faster than I-94 to I-69 to US 127, taking US 10 across to Claire, or going up to M-72.
Though it's been a few years since I've been on 131 north of Cadillac. Have they raised the speed limit on the two lane portion to 65, or are they only doing that in the UP?
They probably have if it's rural enough. It's not only in the U.P. as there are several state highways in the northern Lower Peninsula that have a 65 mph speed limit. The most southern place I have seen a 65 mph speed limit is on M-65 but there could be a few other places I've missed that have it. M-65 has a 65 mph speed limit at it's southern terminus but US-23 between Au Gres and Omer doesn't it's only 55 mph.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 03, 2022, 12:50:50 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on June 03, 2022, 10:15:59 AM
I've done the M-55 cutoff multiple times (including that Lake City bypass) to get from SW Michigan to the UP (and I found that "bypass" well before Waze would route me that way). I've found that faster than I-94 to I-69 to US 127, taking US 10 across to Claire, or going up to M-72.
Though it's been a few years since I've been on 131 north of Cadillac. Have they raised the speed limit on the two lane portion to 65, or are they only doing that in the UP?
They probably have if it's rural enough. It's not only in the U.P. as there are several state highways in the northern Lower Peninsula that have a 65 mph speed limit. The most southern place I have seen a 65 mph speed limit is on M-65 but there could be a few other places I've missed that have it. M-65 has a 65 mph speed limit at it's southern terminus but US-23 between Au Gres and Omer doesn't it's only 55 mph.
- http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/2017_Speed_Limit_Increases_Map.pdf (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/2017_Speed_Limit_Increases_Map.pdf)
Above is a link to the 2017 Speed Limit Increase Map that MDOT put out. While you can see that M-37 actually beat out M-65 by a teeny little bit to be an even more southerly route that was bumped up to 65, it's easy to miss that M-231 was also raised from 55 to 65... although one could argue that it's not fair to count M-231, since it's a limited-access route already, while the others aren't. Anyway, hopefully this should answer the 55-to-65 questions...
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
If you're going to the UP, here are a few suggestions:
My main suggestion would probably be to just stay on I-94 east, past I-196, until you hit US-131, then start heading north from the Kalamazoo area. (Adds about 12 minutes.)
As for cutting over to I-75 or US-127 from US-131...
I don't know man, I've only done that trip once with my family. We took US-131 to M-55 (not including the Lake City Bypass, we stayed on M-55) to US-127 to I-75.
I have a suggestion in mind, but I don't wanna give it away, cause looking at a map, it looks like a pretty good alternative that I'd like to keep to myself...
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 03, 2022, 12:38:21 PM
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 11:50:02 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 03, 2022, 06:59:48 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 03, 2022, 01:54:13 AM
Quote from: bessertc on June 03, 2022, 12:24:33 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 01, 2022, 10:53:16 AM
The family and I are going back up to the UP at the end of this month, and I'm sure that the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 will still be closed by the time we hit the road. I know the official detour calls for traffic to pass I-196, go to M-140, and double back to I-196 via I-94 west.
I'm not the biggest fan of the "double back to go forward" strategy, so I ask you in the know: should I follow the official detour, or is it quicker to use some connection of Red Arrow and M-63 to pick up I-196 from a connecting road up north?
All suggestions welcome.
It's the ramp from I-196 to I-94 east, the ramp from I-94 east to I-196 is still open. If it is closed at that point though there is an exit before M-140 which is Friday Road. Or get off at Napier and head east to Benton Center Road and make a left, and a right onto Red Arrow which will take you back to I-196.
I just did that very "detour" the weekend before last on my way back to Grand Rapids from Chicago: I-94, exit Napier, east to Benton Center, north to Red Arrow, east back to I-196/US-31. It's fine. The road quality is... meh. There are, I believe two or three four-way stops on Benton Center Rd and there's a stop when you turn right onto Red Arrow Hwy, but it wasn't bad. The worst part of the detour, for me, was that I and the five other cars I was behind were all following a large tanker truck that didn't get going more than 40 mph the entire time. :-(
While I, knowing the area quite well and still possessing a variety of "traditional" maps, know that's the best "local/unofficial" detour (probably, much to the chagrin of the local residents along the route!), it seems that's precisely the same route the primary mapping apps are also recommending as well (e.g. Google Maps, Waze, etc.), hence the numerous others doing the exact same thing and the large tanker truck leading us. That's probably one of my biggest pet peeves about the online mapping/routing apps–they can give away some of the best alternate detours. But, alternately, because of my mapping background and possessing the aforementioned traditional maps, I've found many a superior alternate route the online maps/apps have no clue about and, therefore have had them all to myself as well. So, it definitely goes both ways. (For example, as long as Google and Waze keep sending Grand Rapids-to-Mackinac Straits bound traffic off US-131 down M-55 over to US-127 and up I-75... that's fine with me!! :-D You folks have fun slogging it along M-55 together. You can't pay me enough to take that route!!)
Really? M-55? Cutting over on M-72 @ Kalkaska would make more sense.
But then you are going SE toward Grayling so you are more less back tracking.
Correct. US-131 north to M-72 east (technically east-southeast) to I-75 north is NOT advised. You're definitely going out of your way and M-72 generally has a decent amount of traffic as well. You're competing with traffic heading from greater Traverse City heading toward I-75 to head back toward the Tri-Cities, Flint and Metro Detroit areas. Best to be avoided.
Well it's like 25 miles and you aren't going in the direction you want to be going in so that makes sense not to use M-72. Now using Alba Road to M-32 would be a better choice than using M-72 but still you would get caught up in the Gaylord area. Using US-10 to cut over adds a few more miles and is only 9 minutes longer.
I'm not buying the going out of your way/backtracking factor. M-72 does slope ever so slightly a few miles to the south, but the 2-lane portion of US-131 angles to the east, more than making up for it. Or at least it appears so on maps. And I have never encountered much traffic along that portion of M-72 other than going through Grayling itself.
Here's how Google rates some of these route options, all starting at the end of the EBD to NBD on-ramp to US-131 from I-96, and ending at the Jamet St exit on I-75 just before the Mackinac Bridge.
ultimately, this was all about minimizing non-freeway mileage. The less time spent on slower 2-lane roads, the quicker. However, the difference between the shortest and longest trips were 27 miles and 22 minutes.
US-131 - M-46 -> M-66 -> M-20 -> S. Meridan Rd -> W Pickard Rd -> Bus US-127 -> US-127 -> I-75 - 239 miles in 3:25
Total mileage at 75 mph: 187 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 52 miles
4 towns
6 turns
US-131 -> US-10 -> US-127 -> I-75 - 243 miles in 3:22
Total mileage at 75 mph: 209 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 34 miles
1 town
1 turn + 1 long, slow on-ramp to US-127
LOWEST TIME!
US-131 -> M-55 -> Lake City bypass -> M-55 -> US-127 -> I-75 - 232 miles in 3:12
Total mileage at 75 mph - 197 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less - 34 miles
No towns
6 turns
(According to the Google, not taking the Lake City bypass costs you 1 minute.)
US-131 -> M-72 -> Bus I-75/M-93 -> I-75 - 236 miles in 3:29
Total mileage at 75 mph: 184 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 52 miles
3 towns
3 turns
US-131 -> Alba Rd -> M-32 -> I-75 - 224 miles in 3:25
Total mileage at 75 mph: 162 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 62 miles
6 towns
2 turns
US-131 -> US-31 -> I-75 - 216 miles in 3:34
Total mileage at 75 mph: 107 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 109 miles
9 towns
1 turn
Some interesting observations:
- US-10 is the worst for driving distance, but the time you're stuck at 55 is among the shortest. It's by far the simplest route to drive, and no worse for drive time than taking all manner of back roads.
Could a freeway extension of US-10 to US-131 make up the drive time difference between M-55? (Likely not - 243 miles at 75 mph without stopping would take 3:15, and doubtless an all-freeway US-10 would not shorten mileage much if at all).
- M-72 looks attractive on paper, but it's 4 miles farther than M-55 and costs you 16 minutes of drive time.
- Alba Rd/M-32 is 12 miles shorter than M-72, but you have to drive through Kalkaska, Mancelona, Alba, and Gaylord, so the Google only awards 4 minutes advantage over M-72.
- Google's estimate for staying on US-131 to US-31 is probably optimistic in summer. You're not getting through Petoskey that quickly.
Quote from: JREwing78 on June 04, 2022, 02:19:46 PM
Here's how Google rates some of these route options, all starting at the end of the EBD to NBD on-ramp to US-131 from I-96, and ending at the Jamet St exit on I-75 just before the Mackinac Bridge.
US-131 - M-46 -> M-66 -> M-20 -> S. Meridan Rd -> W Pickard Rd -> Bus US-127 -> US-127 -> I-75 - 239 miles in 3:25
Total mileage at 75 mph: 187 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 52 miles
Really?
I would rather stay on M-46 straight to US-127.
The route when modified into Google's Mapping System, says:
US-131 -> M-46 -> US-127 -> I-75 - 260 miles in 3:39
Total mileage at 70 mph: 12 miles
Total mileage at 75 mph: 205 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 43 miles
Is it a little longer? Yeah, probably, but you probably also make up a lot of the time with the 75 mph limit on US-127.
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on June 04, 2022, 09:47:14 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on June 04, 2022, 02:19:46 PM
Here's how Google rates some of these route options, all starting at the end of the EBD to NBD on-ramp to US-131 from I-96, and ending at the Jamet St exit on I-75 just before the Mackinac Bridge.
US-131 - M-46 -> M-66 -> M-20 -> S. Meridan Rd -> W Pickard Rd -> Bus US-127 -> US-127 -> I-75 - 239 miles in 3:25
Total mileage at 75 mph: 187 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 52 miles
Really?
I would rather stay on M-46 straight to US-127.
The route when modified into Google's Mapping System, says:
US-131 -> M-46 -> US-127 -> I-75 - 260 miles in 3:39
Total mileage at 70 mph: 12 miles
Total mileage at 75 mph: 205 miles
Total mileage at 55 mph or less: 43 miles
Is it a little longer? Yeah, probably, but you probably also make up a lot of the time with the 75 mph limit on US-127.
M-46 curves to the south just east of M-66 and US-127 curves away from Mount Pleasant. It's 10 more miles and actually takes about 5 minutes longer even with the 75 mph speed limit on US-127.
https://goo.gl/maps/JFncZzF6j3kihiA29
I see the Left Exit to M-25 in Port Huron since at least 2013 is been relocated to the right.
Of course I'll bet that the flag and other warning signs won't deter cars that pay attention to the GPS from entering Canada. As a toll collector I will assume that the Border Agents in Canada have to deal with ignorance constantly and have to deal with " Oh I didn't want to come this way, my GPS sent me here."
Quote from: roadman65 on June 08, 2022, 06:32:07 PM
As a toll collector I will assume that the Border Agents in Canada have to deal with ignorance constantly and have to deal with " Oh I didn't want to come this way, my GPS sent me here."
I wouldn't want to find out the hard way what happens in that situation. I don't routinely carry my passport, and don't know anyone who does. Assuming the Canadians get you headed back across the bridge, then you have to convince the US Border Patrol you're a citizen and should be allowed back in. If you're suspicious looking or they don't buy your "I made a wrong turn" excuse, or you don't have a passport, that could be an unpleasant experience.
Quote from: JREwing78 on June 08, 2022, 09:45:19 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 08, 2022, 06:32:07 PM
As a toll collector I will assume that the Border Agents in Canada have to deal with ignorance constantly and have to deal with " Oh I didn't want to come this way, my GPS sent me here."
I wouldn't want to find out the hard way what happens in that situation. I don't routinely carry my passport, and don't know anyone who does. Assuming the Canadians get you headed back across the bridge, then you have to convince the US Border Patrol you're a citizen and should be allowed back in. If you're suspicious looking or they don't buy your "I made a wrong turn" excuse, or you don't have a passport, that could be an unpleasant experience.
That new configuration opened in October 2012. The signs with the flags went up 6 months later.
The bridge toll eastbound is paid in the US, so that's where cars were getting turned back around, not across the border.
Quote from: JREwing78 on June 08, 2022, 09:45:19 PM
Assuming the Canadians get you headed back across the bridge, then you have to convince the US Border Patrol you're a citizen and should be allowed back in. If you're suspicious looking or they don't buy your "I made a wrong turn" excuse, or you don't have a passport, that could be an unpleasant experience.
With all the gizmos they have on the US side, they know goddamn well which vehicles got turned back at Canada customs. Each vehicle making a "u-turn" at Canada is going to be flagged immediately and followed by cameras and software to US customs and the agents alerted when it's their turn at the port of entry. I'm sure 95% of the time, the gizmos tell them to wave that car thru.
They're not going to waste their time at a busy checkpoint with idiots who can't read a sign.
Crews have been building the steel structure for the new Second Avenue bridge over I-94 in downtown Detroit (part of the I-94 Modernization project). This will be the first network tied arch bridge in Michigan. The structure is being built in a Wayne State University parking lot on the south side of the freeway between Second and Third avenues.
I-94 will be closed for seven days while the new bridge structure is rolled into place on modular transports. This is anticipated to begin Sunday, July 10th. MDOT has scheduled a virtual open house this Thursday, June 16th, at 11:30am to discuss the bridge slide. Here is a link to the MDOT announcement, which itself includes a link to the Zoom meeting:
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/06/07/mdot-virtual-open-house-june-16-to-discuss--second-avenue-bridge-slide-over-i-94-in-detroit
I drove down yesterday and got a couple photos from across the freeway; I could not get up close. First photo is looking south across the westbound freeway lanes from Third Avenue. (The Third Avenue bridge was demolished and removed last year, and will not be replaced.)
(https://i.imgur.com/Uu6zvA5.jpg)
Second photo is looking southwest across the freeway from Second Avenue. The upright rebar is the abutment wall where the north end of the bridge will sit.
(https://i.imgur.com/AYDTVm6.jpg)
I see lots of posts that spun off from my I-196 dilemma (which is now a nonstarter) regarding the best route to the UP - which correctly assumes that I'm using the Mighty Mac to enter (we're staying at St. Ignace). This piqued my interests, for a myriad of reasons. I'm trying to see if there's a better surface route between freeways than what I'm currently using.
We usually take M-55 east from US 131 north, taking M-66 north to continue on M-55 east to US 127 and going from there. I'm gonna take M-72 out of my personal running because I like the seamless segue from US 127 to I-75. I keep hearing about this "Lake City Bypass," but it's not obviously apparent on the map. I'd like to learn more about that.
There was a slight murmur about US 10. We actually took that route coming home, and thought it would be a good alternative. Unfortunately (at least on that day), we ran into a decent share of slowpokes, with only one passing zone in that 35 mile span near Evart (to be fair, M-55 has only one passing zone on our routing too). I'd be willing to give this another try, since US 127 is wide open right up to I-75.
With me paring it down to those two choices, which do you guys prefer? Thanks again for all the input.
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 19, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I see lots of posts that spun off from my I-196 dilemma (which is now a nonstarter) regarding the best route to the UP - which correctly assumes that I'm using the Mighty Mac to enter (we're staying at St. Ignace). This piqued my interests, for a myriad of reasons. I'm trying to see if there's a better surface route between freeways than what I'm currently using.
We usually take M-55 east from US 131 north, taking M-66 north to continue on M-55 east to US 127 and going from there. I'm gonna take M-72 out of my personal running because I like the seamless segue from US 127 to I-75. I keep hearing about this "Lake City Bypass," but it's not obviously apparent on the map. I'd like to learn more about that.
There was a slight murmur about US 10. We actually took that route coming home, and thought it would be a good alternative. Unfortunately (at least on that day), we ran into a decent share of slowpokes, with only one passing zone in that 35 mile span near Evart (to be fair, M-55 has only one passing zone on our routing too). I'd be willing to give this another try, since US 127 is wide open right up to I-75.
With me paring it down to those two choices, which do you guys prefer? Thanks again for all the input.
I looked far and wide for different options other than M-55 and US 10 but there don't seem to be too many. Probably just stick with M-55.
M-46
appears to be a better route between US 131 and US 127 in my eyes.
(But then again, people going from Grand Rapids to Saginaw who would otherwise use US 131 -> M-46, end up using I-96 -> I-69 -> I-75 instead. Probably for good reason too.)
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 19, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I see lots of posts that spun off from my I-196 dilemma (which is now a nonstarter) regarding the best route to the UP - which correctly assumes that I'm using the Mighty Mac to enter (we're staying at St. Ignace). This piqued my interests, for a myriad of reasons. I'm trying to see if there's a better surface route between freeways than what I'm currently using.
We usually take M-55 east from US 131 north, taking M-66 north to continue on M-55 east to US 127 and going from there. I'm gonna take M-72 out of my personal running because I like the seamless segue from US 127 to I-75. I keep hearing about this "Lake City Bypass," but it's not obviously apparent on the map. I'd like to learn more about that.
There was a slight murmur about US 10. We actually took that route coming home, and thought it would be a good alternative. Unfortunately (at least on that day), we ran into a decent share of slowpokes, with only one passing zone in that 35 mile span near Evart (to be fair, M-55 has only one passing zone on our routing too). I'd be willing to give this another try, since US 127 is wide open right up to I-75.
With me paring it down to those two choices, which do you guys prefer? Thanks again for all the input.
The Lake City Bypass is like this, when you are going east on M-55 and approaching M-66, make a left on M-66 and take it for about a mile to Lotan Road, make a right on Lotan and take that to Vandermeulen and make a left, take Vandermeulen back to M-55. The whole thing is about 9 or 10 miles and it's the same distance to just go through Lake City actually and most of the time it's about the same time but you're just in the country on Lotan and Vandermeulen or in a tiny city (Lake City) on M-55/66.
And since you asked I would take I-196 to US-131 to M-55, take the Lake City bypass and take M-55 to US-127 then to I-75. The speed limit on 131 is 75 mph starting several miles north of GR and M-55 to the Lake City bypass back to M-55 to US-127 will get you to I-75 and the Mackinac Bridge the quickest. US-127 and I-75 are also both 75 mph in the areas you'll be using them except for the Mackinac Bridge which is 45 mph.
US-10 and M-72 will take you awhile, M-46 is a two lane highway like M-55 that will take you longer to get to US-127 than M-55 will. It's 33 miles and 36 minutes via M-55 and the LCBP back to M-55. It's 42 miles and 46 minutes to take M-46 between US-131 and US-127.
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on June 19, 2022, 09:23:30 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 19, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I see lots of posts that spun off from my I-196 dilemma (which is now a nonstarter) regarding the best route to the UP - which correctly assumes that I'm using the Mighty Mac to enter (we're staying at St. Ignace). This piqued my interests, for a myriad of reasons. I'm trying to see if there's a better surface route between freeways than what I'm currently using.
We usually take M-55 east from US 131 north, taking M-66 north to continue on M-55 east to US 127 and going from there. I'm gonna take M-72 out of my personal running because I like the seamless segue from US 127 to I-75. I keep hearing about this "Lake City Bypass," but it's not obviously apparent on the map. I'd like to learn more about that.
There was a slight murmur about US 10. We actually took that route coming home, and thought it would be a good alternative. Unfortunately (at least on that day), we ran into a decent share of slowpokes, with only one passing zone in that 35 mile span near Evart (to be fair, M-55 has only one passing zone on our routing too). I'd be willing to give this another try, since US 127 is wide open right up to I-75.
With me paring it down to those two choices, which do you guys prefer? Thanks again for all the input.
I looked far and wide for different options other than M-55 and US 10 but there don't seem to be too many. Probably just stick with M-55.
M-46 appears to be a better route between US 131 and US 127 in my eyes.
(But then again, people going from Grand Rapids to Saginaw who would otherwise use US 131 -> M-46, end up using I-96 -> I-69 -> I-75 instead. Probably for good reason too.)
It depends on where in Saginaw and Grand Rapids you are coming from and going to. If you are in Saginaw Township I-75 is on the other side of town and M-46 to US-131 is the best way to go. I-75 is almost never a good option if you are coming from or going to the west in Saginaw, M-13 connects to I-69 and shaves off 10 miles or so going into the city of Saginaw it's always the best way to go to get to I-69 going westbound, going eastbound on I-69 you'd take I-75 to I-475 to I-69. M-57 is sometimes a better route, it goes through less towns with Carson City and Greenville really being the only two and you can bypass St. Charles by taking Merrill Road off of Swan Creek Road. There are a few different ways to get between Saginaw and Grand Rapids but coming from where I live in Saginaw Township M-46 to US-131 is pretty much still the best way. Swan Creek Road will bypass several towns along M-46 except for Alma which at that point it's called Lincoln Road but you'll bypass Shields, Hemlock, Merrill, Wheeler, Breckenridge, St. Louis and Edmore because you'd just make a right on M-66 and take that back to M-46 it becomes Lake Montcalm Road in Montcalm County.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 19, 2022, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on June 19, 2022, 09:23:30 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 19, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I see lots of posts that spun off from my I-196 dilemma (which is now a nonstarter) regarding the best route to the UP - which correctly assumes that I'm using the Mighty Mac to enter (we're staying at St. Ignace). This piqued my interests, for a myriad of reasons. I'm trying to see if there's a better surface route between freeways than what I'm currently using.
We usually take M-55 east from US 131 north, taking M-66 north to continue on M-55 east to US 127 and going from there. I'm gonna take M-72 out of my personal running because I like the seamless segue from US 127 to I-75. I keep hearing about this "Lake City Bypass," but it's not obviously apparent on the map. I'd like to learn more about that.
There was a slight murmur about US 10. We actually took that route coming home, and thought it would be a good alternative. Unfortunately (at least on that day), we ran into a decent share of slowpokes, with only one passing zone in that 35 mile span near Evart (to be fair, M-55 has only one passing zone on our routing too). I'd be willing to give this another try, since US 127 is wide open right up to I-75.
With me paring it down to those two choices, which do you guys prefer? Thanks again for all the input.
I looked far and wide for different options other than M-55 and US 10 but there don't seem to be too many. Probably just stick with M-55.
M-46 appears to be a better route between US 131 and US 127 in my eyes.
(But then again, people going from Grand Rapids to Saginaw who would otherwise use US 131 -> M-46, end up using I-96 -> I-69 -> I-75 instead. Probably for good reason too.)
It depends on where in Saginaw and Grand Rapids you are coming from and going to. If you are in Saginaw Township I-75 is on the other side of town and M-46 to US-131 is the best way to go. I-75 is almost never a good option if you are coming from or going to the west in Saginaw, M-13 connects to I-69 and shaves off 10 miles or so going into the city of Saginaw it's always the best way to go to get to I-69 going westbound, going eastbound on I-69 you'd take I-75 to I-475 to I-69. M-57 is sometimes a better route, it goes through less towns with Carson City and Greenville really being the only two and you can bypass St. Charles by taking Merrill Road off of Swan Creek Road. There are a few different ways to get between Saginaw and Grand Rapids but coming from where I live in Saginaw Township M-46 to US-131 is pretty much still the best way. Swan Creek Road will bypass several towns along M-46 except for Alma which at that point it's called Lincoln Road but you'll bypass Shields, Hemlock, Merrill, Wheeler, Breckenridge, St. Louis and Edmore because you'd just make a right on M-66 and take that back to M-46 it becomes Lake Montcalm Road in Montcalm County.
Are you drunk?
If I-69 wasn't under construction for much of the time you'd be on it, I-94 -> I-69 -> US-127 -> I-75 is not terribly slower and is almost all freeway (excepting the 15 miles or so of US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca). This would be the optimal route in winter; the freeways get priority plowing and lake effect snow is minimal once you reach the I-69 corridor. If lake effect is particularly brutal, the Indiana Toll Road will get you away from it, and then it's I-69 north to US-127.
You could also opt for I-196 -> M-6 -> I-96 -> I-69 -> US-127 -> I-75, which is similar in drive time and distance outside of winter.
Michigan has a lot of good ways to head northwest - thank generations of tourists from Detroit, Flint, and so on for driving demand for good road mobility to the sunset side of the state. The connections pointed northeast are far less developed, with no freeways or divided 4-lane highways north of the Grand Rapids - Lansing - Flint line defined by I-96 and I-69 (excepting US-10, which is pointed the wrong way for Alpena traffic).
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 20, 2022, 12:40:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 19, 2022, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on June 19, 2022, 09:23:30 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 19, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I see lots of posts that spun off from my I-196 dilemma (which is now a nonstarter) regarding the best route to the UP - which correctly assumes that I'm using the Mighty Mac to enter (we're staying at St. Ignace). This piqued my interests, for a myriad of reasons. I'm trying to see if there's a better surface route between freeways than what I'm currently using.
We usually take M-55 east from US 131 north, taking M-66 north to continue on M-55 east to US 127 and going from there. I'm gonna take M-72 out of my personal running because I like the seamless segue from US 127 to I-75. I keep hearing about this "Lake City Bypass," but it's not obviously apparent on the map. I'd like to learn more about that.
There was a slight murmur about US 10. We actually took that route coming home, and thought it would be a good alternative. Unfortunately (at least on that day), we ran into a decent share of slowpokes, with only one passing zone in that 35 mile span near Evart (to be fair, M-55 has only one passing zone on our routing too). I'd be willing to give this another try, since US 127 is wide open right up to I-75.
With me paring it down to those two choices, which do you guys prefer? Thanks again for all the input.
I looked far and wide for different options other than M-55 and US 10 but there don't seem to be too many. Probably just stick with M-55.
M-46 appears to be a better route between US 131 and US 127 in my eyes.
(But then again, people going from Grand Rapids to Saginaw who would otherwise use US 131 -> M-46, end up using I-96 -> I-69 -> I-75 instead. Probably for good reason too.)
It depends on where in Saginaw and Grand Rapids you are coming from and going to. If you are in Saginaw Township I-75 is on the other side of town and M-46 to US-131 is the best way to go. I-75 is almost never a good option if you are coming from or going to the west in Saginaw, M-13 connects to I-69 and shaves off 10 miles or so going into the city of Saginaw it's always the best way to go to get to I-69 going westbound, going eastbound on I-69 you'd take I-75 to I-475 to I-69. M-57 is sometimes a better route, it goes through less towns with Carson City and Greenville really being the only two and you can bypass St. Charles by taking Merrill Road off of Swan Creek Road. There are a few different ways to get between Saginaw and Grand Rapids but coming from where I live in Saginaw Township M-46 to US-131 is pretty much still the best way. Swan Creek Road will bypass several towns along M-46 except for Alma which at that point it's called Lincoln Road but you'll bypass Shields, Hemlock, Merrill, Wheeler, Breckenridge, St. Louis and Edmore because you'd just make a right on M-66 and take that back to M-46 it becomes Lake Montcalm Road in Montcalm County.
Are you drunk?
Why would I be drunk?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 13, 2022, 04:51:55 PM
Crews have been building the steel structure for the new Second Avenue bridge over I-94 in downtown Detroit (part of the I-94 Modernization project). This will be the first network tied arch bridge in Michigan. The structure is being built in a Wayne State University parking lot on the south side of the freeway between Second and Third avenues.
I-94 will be closed for seven days while the new bridge structure is rolled into place on modular transports. This is anticipated to begin Sunday, July 10th. MDOT has scheduled a virtual open house this Thursday, June 16th, at 11:30am to discuss the bridge slide. Here is a link to the MDOT announcement, which itself includes a link to the Zoom meeting:
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/06/07/mdot-virtual-open-house-june-16-to-discuss--second-avenue-bridge-slide-over-i-94-in-detroit
I drove down yesterday and got a couple photos from across the freeway; I could not get up close. First photo is looking south across the westbound freeway lanes from Third Avenue. (The Third Avenue bridge was demolished and removed last year, and will not be replaced.)
(https://i.imgur.com/Uu6zvA5.jpg)
Second photo is looking southwest across the freeway from Second Avenue. The upright rebar is the abutment wall where the north end of the bridge will sit.
(https://i.imgur.com/AYDTVm6.jpg)
Thanks for sharing these pictures. :) However, it's too bad then the scenario of continuous service roads have been dropped, here some "what might have been" plans they had once studied for the area of 2nd Ave. https://web.archive.org/web/20150215130004/http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDOT_Figure_13-4_I-94_M-10_to_John_R_118213_7.pdf
And there's a bit more.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150213074447/https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11058_53088_53115-112105--,00.html
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2022, 06:26:18 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 20, 2022, 12:40:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 19, 2022, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on June 19, 2022, 09:23:30 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 19, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I see lots of posts that spun off from my I-196 dilemma (which is now a nonstarter) regarding the best route to the UP - which correctly assumes that I'm using the Mighty Mac to enter (we're staying at St. Ignace). This piqued my interests, for a myriad of reasons. I'm trying to see if there's a better surface route between freeways than what I'm currently using.
We usually take M-55 east from US 131 north, taking M-66 north to continue on M-55 east to US 127 and going from there. I'm gonna take M-72 out of my personal running because I like the seamless segue from US 127 to I-75. I keep hearing about this "Lake City Bypass," but it's not obviously apparent on the map. I'd like to learn more about that.
There was a slight murmur about US 10. We actually took that route coming home, and thought it would be a good alternative. Unfortunately (at least on that day), we ran into a decent share of slowpokes, with only one passing zone in that 35 mile span near Evart (to be fair, M-55 has only one passing zone on our routing too). I'd be willing to give this another try, since US 127 is wide open right up to I-75.
With me paring it down to those two choices, which do you guys prefer? Thanks again for all the input.
I looked far and wide for different options other than M-55 and US 10 but there don't seem to be too many. Probably just stick with M-55.
M-46 appears to be a better route between US 131 and US 127 in my eyes.
(But then again, people going from Grand Rapids to Saginaw who would otherwise use US 131 -> M-46, end up using I-96 -> I-69 -> I-75 instead. Probably for good reason too.)
It depends on where in Saginaw and Grand Rapids you are coming from and going to. If you are in Saginaw Township I-75 is on the other side of town and M-46 to US-131 is the best way to go. I-75 is almost never a good option if you are coming from or going to the west in Saginaw, M-13 connects to I-69 and shaves off 10 miles or so going into the city of Saginaw it's always the best way to go to get to I-69 going westbound, going eastbound on I-69 you'd take I-75 to I-475 to I-69. M-57 is sometimes a better route, it goes through less towns with Carson City and Greenville really being the only two and you can bypass St. Charles by taking Merrill Road off of Swan Creek Road. There are a few different ways to get between Saginaw and Grand Rapids but coming from where I live in Saginaw Township M-46 to US-131 is pretty much still the best way. Swan Creek Road will bypass several towns along M-46 except for Alma which at that point it's called Lincoln Road but you'll bypass Shields, Hemlock, Merrill, Wheeler, Breckenridge, St. Louis and Edmore because you'd just make a right on M-66 and take that back to M-46 it becomes Lake Montcalm Road in Montcalm County.
Are you drunk?
Why would I be drunk?
I don't know why, but none of this makes any sense. M-46 is a slow 2-lane route with lots of slow traffic, few passing zones and lots of small towns. Ditto for M-57 and M-13. And I have no idea where you were trying to go with this, but it's obviously not going to get anyone anywhere:
"...going eastbound on I-69 you'd take I-75 to I-475 to I-69."
Stick to the freeways. It may be a bit longer, but you'll save about an hour over the other routes.
https://goo.gl/maps/y29EGrbawYzAgrco9
Thought this is unusual an at grade diamond on I-94 BL near Benton Harbor.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2022, 02:21:55 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/y29EGrbawYzAgrco9
Thought this is unusual an at grade diamond on I-94 BL near Benton Harbor.
Not anymore. This stretch of BL I-94 was just reconstructed as a two-lane road and this intersection is now a roundabout with no ramps. This was part of the US-31 interchange project.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 21, 2022, 02:50:08 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2022, 02:21:55 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/y29EGrbawYzAgrco9
Thought this is unusual an at grade diamond on I-94 BL near Benton Harbor.
Not anymore. This stretch of BL I-94 was just reconstructed as a two-lane road and this intersection is now a roundabout with no ramps. This was part of the US-31 interchange project.
What about Euclid Avenue to the east.? Was the overpass eliminated then?
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2022, 03:00:55 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 21, 2022, 02:50:08 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2022, 02:21:55 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/y29EGrbawYzAgrco9
Thought this is unusual an at grade diamond on I-94 BL near Benton Harbor.
Not anymore. This stretch of BL I-94 was just reconstructed as a two-lane road and this intersection is now a roundabout with no ramps. This was part of the US-31 interchange project.
What about Euclid Avenue to the east.? Was the overpass eliminated then?
Yes, it has been replaced with an at-grade intersection.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 20, 2022, 11:22:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2022, 06:26:18 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 20, 2022, 12:40:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 19, 2022, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on June 19, 2022, 09:23:30 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on June 19, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I see lots of posts that spun off from my I-196 dilemma (which is now a nonstarter) regarding the best route to the UP - which correctly assumes that I'm using the Mighty Mac to enter (we're staying at St. Ignace). This piqued my interests, for a myriad of reasons. I'm trying to see if there's a better surface route between freeways than what I'm currently using.
We usually take M-55 east from US 131 north, taking M-66 north to continue on M-55 east to US 127 and going from there. I'm gonna take M-72 out of my personal running because I like the seamless segue from US 127 to I-75. I keep hearing about this "Lake City Bypass," but it's not obviously apparent on the map. I'd like to learn more about that.
There was a slight murmur about US 10. We actually took that route coming home, and thought it would be a good alternative. Unfortunately (at least on that day), we ran into a decent share of slowpokes, with only one passing zone in that 35 mile span near Evart (to be fair, M-55 has only one passing zone on our routing too). I'd be willing to give this another try, since US 127 is wide open right up to I-75.
With me paring it down to those two choices, which do you guys prefer? Thanks again for all the input.
I looked far and wide for different options other than M-55 and US 10 but there don't seem to be too many. Probably just stick with M-55.
M-46 appears to be a better route between US 131 and US 127 in my eyes.
(But then again, people going from Grand Rapids to Saginaw who would otherwise use US 131 -> M-46, end up using I-96 -> I-69 -> I-75 instead. Probably for good reason too.)
It depends on where in Saginaw and Grand Rapids you are coming from and going to. If you are in Saginaw Township I-75 is on the other side of town and M-46 to US-131 is the best way to go. I-75 is almost never a good option if you are coming from or going to the west in Saginaw, M-13 connects to I-69 and shaves off 10 miles or so going into the city of Saginaw it's always the best way to go to get to I-69 going westbound, going eastbound on I-69 you'd take I-75 to I-475 to I-69. M-57 is sometimes a better route, it goes through less towns with Carson City and Greenville really being the only two and you can bypass St. Charles by taking Merrill Road off of Swan Creek Road. There are a few different ways to get between Saginaw and Grand Rapids but coming from where I live in Saginaw Township M-46 to US-131 is pretty much still the best way. Swan Creek Road will bypass several towns along M-46 except for Alma which at that point it's called Lincoln Road but you'll bypass Shields, Hemlock, Merrill, Wheeler, Breckenridge, St. Louis and Edmore because you'd just make a right on M-66 and take that back to M-46 it becomes Lake Montcalm Road in Montcalm County.
Are you drunk?
Why would I be drunk?
I don't know why, but none of this makes any sense. M-46 is a slow 2-lane route with lots of slow traffic, few passing zones and lots of small towns. Ditto for M-57 and M-13. And I have no idea where you were trying to go with this, but it's obviously not going to get anyone anywhere:
"...going eastbound on I-69 you'd take I-75 to I-475 to I-69."
Stick to the freeways. It may be a bit longer, but you'll save about an hour over the other routes.
It makes perfect sense. I live in Saginaw and travel around the state frequently so I'm pretty aware of how to get to other cities in the state. M-46 barely has a bunch of slow moving traffic, between the towns traffic moves at about 60 mph, M-57 and M-13 have even less slow moving traffic than M-46 does and what's wrong with using the combo of Swan Creek/Lincoln/Lake Montcalm Roads to bypass the small towns along M-46? The only city you go through is Alma and it takes you all the way to M-66 just before the S curve at Six Lakes. And really you could cut over on US-127 since US-127 shifts in the direction you are going into there and only have one more small town (Edmore) to go through. There are several different ways you can go between Saginaw and Grand Rapids and most of them end up being around the same amount of time. Adding on 7 more minutes to save 17 miles is worth it. And you use up more gas using the freeways too.
None of those three state highways are very slow moving highways at all. M-46 is a fine highway to take to get to US-131 it might go through some small towns Taking M-46 and US-131 from Saginaw to Grand Rapids adds on a grand total of 7 more minutes and cuts off 17 miles. I'll gladly trade those 7 more minutes to save 17 miles and the fact that I would do a return trip would save me a total of 34 miles. I travel on all three of these state highways frequently and add in M-52 that I travel on frequently as well. It might save you a few minutes but in the long run it's a lot further.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 21, 2022, 03:20:45 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2022, 03:00:55 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 21, 2022, 02:50:08 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2022, 02:21:55 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/y29EGrbawYzAgrco9
Thought this is unusual an at grade diamond on I-94 BL near Benton Harbor.
Not anymore. This stretch of BL I-94 was just reconstructed as a two-lane road and this intersection is now a roundabout with no ramps. This was part of the US-31 interchange project.
What about Euclid Avenue to the east.? Was the overpass eliminated then?
Yes, it has been replaced with an at-grade intersection.
It's kind of a shame. I love the little mini-freeways and the weird and unique 1950-60s era designs that came with them (some examples are the "freeway" in Benton Harbor on M-63 and the really strange interchange at Klock Road or the little segment of US-12 south of Niles, or the Willow Run freeway). They're slowly being removed one by one. I understand that their replacements are safer and are usually cheaper and make more sense but I'm still sad to see them go.
Quote from: rhen_var on June 22, 2022, 10:22:31 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 21, 2022, 03:20:45 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2022, 03:00:55 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 21, 2022, 02:50:08 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2022, 02:21:55 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/y29EGrbawYzAgrco9
Thought this is unusual an at grade diamond on I-94 BL near Benton Harbor.
Not anymore. This stretch of BL I-94 was just reconstructed as a two-lane road and this intersection is now a roundabout with no ramps. This was part of the US-31 interchange project.
What about Euclid Avenue to the east.? Was the overpass eliminated then?
Yes, it has been replaced with an at-grade intersection.
It's kind of a shame. I love the little mini-freeways and the weird and unique 1950-60s era designs that came with them (some examples are the "freeway" in Benton Harbor on M-63 and the really strange interchange at Klock Road or the little segment of US-12 south of Niles, or the Willow Run freeway). They're slowly being removed one by one. I understand that their replacements are safer and are usually cheaper and make more sense but I'm still sad to see them go.
Well, my experience has been that traffic always moves slowly on these 2 lane highways. There are no passing lanes and not nearly enough passing zones, and the few passing zones are short. Trucks, farm equipment and Amish buggies are also problems. These 2 lane highways are downright dangerous, imo. I generally stay off from them unless it's a holiday weekend with bumper to bumper traffic on the freeways. The top speed limit on these 2 lane highways is 55. It's 70-75 on the freeways. I see absolutely no reason to take these 2 lane road routes. I want to get to where I'm going as quickly as possible and as safely as possible.
Well from my driveway in Saginaw Township to downtown Grand Rapids the quickest way is to take M-46 to US-131 it's also shorter by 22 miles to take this route than to take M-13 to I-69. Taking I-75 to I-69 to go toward Lansing doesn't make any sense either. It is a route that you COULD use but it's longer and is going to take a longer period of time to travel.
Look at these routings from my driveway to downtown Grand Rapids.
Taking I-75 to I-69 to I-96: 150 miles, 2 hours 18 minutes.
Taking M-46 to US-131: 114 miles, 2 hours 9 minutes.
Taking Center than Swan Creek Road to M-52 to M-57 to US-131: 114 miles, 2 hours 14 minutes.
Taking M-13 to I-69 to I-96: 136 miles, 2 hours 13 minutes.
So you see the times are about the same but you are saving miles and gas mileage by taking the shorter route. And you can go 60 mph on M-46, M-52 and M-57. I've never had a problem with slow moving traffic, the traffic volumes on M-46 aren't generally that high in the rural areas that it's going to be much of a factor. M-46 honestly has it's highest traffic volumes near it's western terminus and the lowest traffic volumes near it's eastern terminus and the traffic volumes between Saginaw and US-131 are below 8,000 VPD. M-57's are even lower until you get to Greenville.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 23, 2022, 08:17:03 AM
Well from my driveway in Saginaw Township to downtown Grand Rapids the quickest way is to take M-46 to US-131 it's also shorter by 22 miles to take this route than to take M-13 to I-69. Taking I-75 to I-69 to go toward Lansing doesn't make any sense either. It is a route that you COULD use but it's longer and is going to take a longer period of time to travel.
Look at these routings from my driveway to downtown Grand Rapids.
Taking I-75 to I-69 to I-96: 150 miles, 2 hours 18 minutes.
Taking M-46 to US-131: 114 miles, 2 hours 9 minutes.
Taking Center than Swan Creek Road to M-52 to M-57 to US-131: 114 miles, 2 hours 14 minutes.
Taking M-13 to I-69 to I-96: 136 miles, 2 hours 13 minutes.
So you see the times are about the same but you are saving miles and gas mileage by taking the shorter route. And you can go 60 mph on M-46, M-52 and M-57. I've never had a problem with slow moving traffic, the traffic volumes on M-46 aren't generally that high in the rural areas that it's going to be much of a factor. M-46 honestly has it's highest traffic volumes near it's western terminus and the lowest traffic volumes near it's eastern terminus and the traffic volumes between Saginaw and US-131 are below 8,000 VPD. M-57's are even lower until you get to Greenville.
I don't know where you're getting those times from, but I don't believe them. It takes me about an hour longer taking the 2-lane highways. And I don't think there's any savings gas mileage wise either. Slower speed limits do not necessarily mean higher gas mileage when there are a lot of stops and starts and slow downs involved as opposed to just putting it in cruise on the freeways. Now, I will say that road construction plays a factor, and right now taking I-96 to I-69 to Flint is a real headache with the EB I-96 to ramp to EB I-69 being closed, with no good detour routes available! I've been taking 2 lane roads up to Mount Pleasant, but I avoid M-46 for all but about 10 miles. And I'll go back to using I-196 to US-127 as soon as the construction is complete.
^ I would personally also prefer the interstate routing over arterial roads for the convenience of cruising at ~80 mph the whole way, but I do question if it would add an hour... especially considering mileage wise, the arterial routes in question are shorter distance.
I was actually in Grand Rapids yesterday. I had to take an indirect route to get there because I was going from Saginaw to Harrison to Big Rapids then to Grand Rapids. But anyway Grand Rapids was my last stop and I was heading back to Saginaw after that. I was at the Meijer at 28th and Kalamazoo when I started to head back to Saginaw. I took this route going back to Saginaw.
Started out heading east on 28th to M-37 north, then took M-44 east to M-91 north, took Fairplains Street in Greenville to connect to M-57 east. Once I was on M-57 it was smooth sailing, I started out doing about 60 mph, then went up to 65, then 70 and finally 75 mph as that is what the traffic was moving. The only city you encounter is Carson City and I made it across Gratiot County in real good time. Took M-57 to M-52 north going through St. Charles which doesn't bother me since I'm use to that town. Then took Swan Creek to Center which at that point you're in Saginaw. The only problem I thought I was going to have is once I turned on M-44 to head east there was a truck two vehicles ahead of me and I thought he might go slower but he was moving 65 mph the entire way to M-91.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 24, 2022, 06:54:10 AM
^ I would personally also prefer the interstate routing over arterial roads for the convenience of cruising at ~80 mph the whole way, but I do question if it would add an hour... especially considering mileage wise, the arterial routes in question are shorter distance.
It doesn't even come close to adding an hour. Taking I-96 and I-69 actually adds two minutes going from downtown Grand Rapids to my driveway over taking US-131 to M-46. You're moving 75 on US-131 anyway for 35 miles then heading east on M-46. I-96 to I-69 to I-75 isn't even a suggestion on Google Maps. And you are adding 21 miles. It's quicker to take US-131 to M-46.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 23, 2022, 09:57:45 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 23, 2022, 08:17:03 AM
Well from my driveway in Saginaw Township to downtown Grand Rapids the quickest way is to take M-46 to US-131 it's also shorter by 22 miles to take this route than to take M-13 to I-69. Taking I-75 to I-69 to go toward Lansing doesn't make any sense either. It is a route that you COULD use but it's longer and is going to take a longer period of time to travel.
Look at these routings from my driveway to downtown Grand Rapids.
Taking I-75 to I-69 to I-96: 150 miles, 2 hours 18 minutes.
Taking M-46 to US-131: 114 miles, 2 hours 9 minutes.
Taking Center than Swan Creek Road to M-52 to M-57 to US-131: 114 miles, 2 hours 14 minutes.
Taking M-13 to I-69 to I-96: 136 miles, 2 hours 13 minutes.
So you see the times are about the same but you are saving miles and gas mileage by taking the shorter route. And you can go 60 mph on M-46, M-52 and M-57. I've never had a problem with slow moving traffic, the traffic volumes on M-46 aren't generally that high in the rural areas that it's going to be much of a factor. M-46 honestly has it's highest traffic volumes near it's western terminus and the lowest traffic volumes near it's eastern terminus and the traffic volumes between Saginaw and US-131 are below 8,000 VPD. M-57's are even lower until you get to Greenville.
I don't know where you're getting those times from, but I don't believe them. It takes me about an hour longer taking the 2-lane highways. And I don't think there's any savings gas mileage wise either. Slower speed limits do not necessarily mean higher gas mileage when there are a lot of stops and starts and slow downs involved as opposed to just putting it in cruise on the freeways. Now, I will say that road construction plays a factor, and right now taking I-96 to I-69 to Flint is a real headache with the EB I-96 to ramp to EB I-69 being closed, with no good detour routes available! I've been taking 2 lane roads up to Mount Pleasant, but I avoid M-46 for all but about 10 miles. And I'll go back to using I-196 to US-127 as soon as the construction is complete.
Ok fine don't believe them. I'm getting those times from actually driving these routes. How does it take you an hour longer to take M-46 to US-131 vs. M-13 to I-69 to I-96? I don't believe that time at all. There isn't any savings gas mileage wise? How do you figure that? You are driving your car at 70-80 mph for far longer than you are driving your car at 55-60 mph if you take the Interstate's. Slower speed limits mean you are going to get better gas mileage than driving on the highway. I drive a Ford Fusion Hybrid I know my car pretty good. There aren't a lot of stops and starts and slow downs taking M-46 just because it goes through some small towns along the way then hop down M-66 and take Lake Montcalm Road which becomes Lincoln Road in Gratiot County and Swan Creek Road in Saginaw County and the only town you'll go through is Alma. If the route is shorter but only a few minutes longer I'm taking that route.
I honestly have no idea where you are coming from and going to but the routings I have taken haven't taken an hour more than going down and taking the Interstate's. Like I've been saying there it's possible to bypass the small towns along M-46 as well.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2022, 10:45:23 AM
I honestly have no idea where you are coming from and going to but the routings I have taken haven't taken an hour more than going down and taking the Interstate's. Like I've been saying there it's possible to bypass the small towns along M-46 as well.
I can do 75-85 on the freeways w/o getting pulled over. I can very rarely get over 55 on the 2-lane highways, and only for short periods of time. With the towns, slow traffic, lack of passing areas and stops for other roads out in the middle of nowhere, I'd be lucky to average 45 MPH on the 2-lane highways. We're talking about a 30-40 MPH difference, and that easily adds up to an hour difference covering such a distance.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 24, 2022, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2022, 10:45:23 AM
I honestly have no idea where you are coming from and going to but the routings I have taken haven't taken an hour more than going down and taking the Interstate's. Like I've been saying there it's possible to bypass the small towns along M-46 as well.
I can do 75-85 on the freeways w/o getting pilled over. I can very rarely get over 55 on the 2-lane highways, and only for short periods of time. With the towns, slow traffic, lack of passing areas and stops for other roads out in the middle of nowhere, I'd be lucky to average 45 MPH on the 2-lane highways. We're talking about a 30-40 MPH difference, and that easily adds up to an hour difference covering such a distance.
From Saginaw City Hall (I'm using this as the reference point in Saginaw) to the northern junction of M-46 and US-131 is 79.2 miles and Google Maps estimates that it will take 1 hour and 37 minutes to drive this. 79 miles from Saginaw City Hall using M-13 to I-69 to I-96 is going to put you at exit 86 on I-96 at 1 hour 16 minutes which is only a 21 minute savings. The distance the rest of the way to downtown Grand Rapids from those two points first from exit 86 on I-96 to downtown GR is 52.8 miles and will take 47 minutes based on Google Maps at this hour of the night it's 11:22pm right now. From M-46 and US-131's northern junction it's 35.9 miles and takes 32 minutes.
Right now btw the suggested route to take from Saginaw to GR is M-13 to Verne to Bueche to Fergus (three county roads in Saginaw County) to M-52 south to M-57 west to US-131 south. It gives you a different route all the time, there are several different ways to get between Saginaw and Grand Rapids. You aren't wrong for sticking with the freeways but I'm just saying you'll cut off miles if you can sacrifice a few minutes. It's generally within 5-7 minutes more to take M-46 to US-131 but over 20 miles shorter.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2022, 11:27:04 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 24, 2022, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2022, 10:45:23 AM
I honestly have no idea where you are coming from and going to but the routings I have taken haven't taken an hour more than going down and taking the Interstate's. Like I've been saying there it's possible to bypass the small towns along M-46 as well.
I can do 75-85 on the freeways w/o getting pilled over. I can very rarely get over 55 on the 2-lane highways, and only for short periods of time. With the towns, slow traffic, lack of passing areas and stops for other roads out in the middle of nowhere, I'd be lucky to average 45 MPH on the 2-lane highways. We're talking about a 30-40 MPH difference, and that easily adds up to an hour difference covering such a distance.
From Saginaw City Hall (I'm using this as the reference point in Saginaw) to the northern junction of M-46 and US-131 is 79.2 miles and Google Maps estimates that it will take 1 hour and 37 minutes to drive this. 79 miles from Saginaw City Hall using M-13 to I-69 to I-96 is going to put you at exit 86 on I-96 at 1 hour 16 minutes which is only a 21 minute savings. The distance the rest of the way to downtown Grand Rapids from those two points first from exit 86 on I-96 to downtown GR is 52.8 miles and will take 47 minutes based on Google Maps at this hour of the night it's 11:22pm right now. From M-46 and US-131's northern junction it's 35.9 miles and takes 32 minutes.
Right now btw the suggested route to take from Saginaw to GR is M-13 to Verne to Bueche to Fergus (three county roads in Saginaw County) to M-52 south to M-57 west to US-131 south. It gives you a different route all the time, there are several different ways to get between Saginaw and Grand Rapids. You aren't wrong for sticking with the freeways but I'm just saying you'll cut off miles if you can sacrifice a few minutes. It's generally within 5-7 minutes more to take M-46 to US-131 but over 20 miles shorter.
Ok, there may be certain times of day when it isn't a problem, but for the most part, US-131 in GR and north of town to about 14 or 17 Mile Road is a parking lot. I've probably done that stretch in 32 minutes or less before, but if I have to venture to the north, probably more times than not I have to get off the freeway or not enter it at all and use Pine Island Dr. and Algoma Rd. because traffic is at a standstill or close to it. I just don't see any reason to go that way.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 27, 2022, 02:39:42 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2022, 11:27:04 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 24, 2022, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2022, 10:45:23 AM
I honestly have no idea where you are coming from and going to but the routings I have taken haven't taken an hour more than going down and taking the Interstate's. Like I've been saying there it's possible to bypass the small towns along M-46 as well.
I can do 75-85 on the freeways w/o getting pilled over. I can very rarely get over 55 on the 2-lane highways, and only for short periods of time. With the towns, slow traffic, lack of passing areas and stops for other roads out in the middle of nowhere, I'd be lucky to average 45 MPH on the 2-lane highways. We're talking about a 30-40 MPH difference, and that easily adds up to an hour difference covering such a distance.
From Saginaw City Hall (I'm using this as the reference point in Saginaw) to the northern junction of M-46 and US-131 is 79.2 miles and Google Maps estimates that it will take 1 hour and 37 minutes to drive this. 79 miles from Saginaw City Hall using M-13 to I-69 to I-96 is going to put you at exit 86 on I-96 at 1 hour 16 minutes which is only a 21 minute savings. The distance the rest of the way to downtown Grand Rapids from those two points first from exit 86 on I-96 to downtown GR is 52.8 miles and will take 47 minutes based on Google Maps at this hour of the night it's 11:22pm right now. From M-46 and US-131's northern junction it's 35.9 miles and takes 32 minutes.
Right now btw the suggested route to take from Saginaw to GR is M-13 to Verne to Bueche to Fergus (three county roads in Saginaw County) to M-52 south to M-57 west to US-131 south. It gives you a different route all the time, there are several different ways to get between Saginaw and Grand Rapids. You aren't wrong for sticking with the freeways but I'm just saying you'll cut off miles if you can sacrifice a few minutes. It's generally within 5-7 minutes more to take M-46 to US-131 but over 20 miles shorter.
Ok, there may be certain times of day when it isn't a problem, but for the most part, US-131 in GR and north of town to about 14 or 17 Mile Road is a parking lot. I've probably done that stretch in 32 minutes or less before, but if I have to venture to the north, probably more times than not I have to get off the freeway or not enter it at all and use Pine Island Dr. and Algoma Rd. because traffic is at a standstill or close to it. I just don't see any reason to go that way.
Yeah US-131 is a mess north of town no doubt. I was leaving GR at 5:00pm and was at 28th and Kalamazoo at the Meijer store there. It kept telling me to go to US-131 north and take that to M-46 east. I was like screw that I'll stick with M-44 to M-91 to M-57 to M-52. With the shortcut in Greenville (Fairplains Street). Then the only two towns I had to go through after that were Carson City and St. Charles as M-57 bypasses Sheridan, Middleton and Perrinton (three super small towns). M-57 is actually a better route than M-46 is considering there is less traffic on M-57 except for west of Greenville. The only thing is M-57 doesn't go across the state like M-46 does, M-57 ends at US-131 on the west end and M-15 on the east end.
Just came back from the beautiful UP this week.
I did manage to find the Lake City Bypass going up north, and I thought that was an excellent decision. Speed limit stays at 55 at all points, and the path is not as beaten as if I stayed on M-55/66 through downtown Lake City. I also found a viable path going back, going from Gaylord to Alba and picking up US 131 much earlier than usual. That may be my new favorite path, since there's a nice stretch of two-lane roadway supported with passing zones along the way.
Lots of progress with the I-94/196/US 31 project. Among some notes I discovered...
When going west on I-94, older signage for I-196/US 31 northbound omitted Grand Rapids in favor of South Haven, with Holland as the other control city (likely because of long range westbound drivers encountering US 131 first, which is the shorter route to Grand Rapids). Not anymore; Grand Rapids and Holland are the controls for I-196/US 31 northbound for both directions of I-94.
APL signage is in place for the I-94 east to I-196/US 31 ramp, but for obvious reasons, the arrows are covered up. The loop ramp for I-94 west to US 31 south is paved, ready for fall opening. Some BGS's for the new interchange are up, covered with "CLOSED" signage, but I could see that US 31 south has South Bend as its control city, with Niles oddly omitted.
I'm gonna find a reason to be up there later this fall to see the final product.
The road you found going from Gaylord to Alba I'm just wondering if it's CR-42. Because I've used that road coming off NB 131 going toward Gaylord before.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2022, 12:52:12 PM
The road you found going from Gaylord to Alba I'm just wondering if it's CR-42. Because I've used that road coming off NB 131 going toward Gaylord before.
Probably was CR-42, I don't see any other route between Alba and Gaylord (other than perhaps M-32 itself, which would be longer and out of the way).
MDOT is planning to rebuild the Grand River interchange at I-96 as a DDI beginning in 2025.
QuoteMDOT project managers recently met with Brighton City Council to discuss coming improvements to the I-96/Grand River interchange, which commonly backs up during peak hours. After performing a bridge and feasibility study and considering 7 different intersection alternatives, MDOT will be constructing a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI), anticipated to begin in 2025. DDI's are a fairly new concept and have proven to be effective in the small number of communities they have been built in nationally. When completed, drivers going through the underpass will find themselves crossing over to other side of the road they would normally be on. In this way, the DDI makes for better traffic flow, simpler left turns, reduced stop times, and results in 53% fewer accidents.
https://www.whmi.com/news/article/brighton-mdot-diverging-diamond-ddi
Quote from: afguy on July 03, 2022, 11:15:56 PM
MDOT is planning to rebuild the Grand River interchange at I-96 as a DDI beginning in 2025.
QuoteMDOT project managers recently met with Brighton City Council to discuss coming improvements to the I-96/Grand River interchange, which commonly backs up during peak hours. After performing a bridge and feasibility study and considering 7 different intersection alternatives, MDOT will be constructing a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI), anticipated to begin in 2025. DDI's are a fairly new concept and have proven to be effective in the small number of communities they have been built in nationally. When completed, drivers going through the underpass will find themselves crossing over to other side of the road they would normally be on. In this way, the DDI makes for better traffic flow, simpler left turns, reduced stop times, and results in 53% fewer accidents.
https://www.whmi.com/news/article/brighton-mdot-diverging-diamond-ddi
Should be noted that this is the one in Brighton (there are several Grand River/I-96 interchanges across the state). I was confused for a bit since I was originally thinking of Exit 90 northwest of Lansing.
When I think of Grand River meeting I-96 I think of the two interchanges in Detroit.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 04, 2022, 09:41:48 PM
When I think of Grand River meeting I-96 I think of the two interchanges in Detroit.
I've never understood why the section between Lansing and Detroit is called Grand River Ave, since it goes nowhere near The Grand River.
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 04, 2022, 11:05:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 04, 2022, 09:41:48 PM
When I think of Grand River meeting I-96 I think of the two interchanges in Detroit.
I've never understood why the section between Lansing and Detroit is called Grand River Ave, since it goes nowhere near The Grand River.
I think it was just the name given to the entire trail from when they were Indian footpaths and when the street layout of Detroit was made in 1805 it was part of that trail so the name stuck is my best guess at it. I read somewhere where they gave it that name because it paralleled at least half of the river's length. The Grand River goes south at Lansing toward Jackson though so it does seem odd but it's all one trail I know that much.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 04, 2022, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 04, 2022, 11:05:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 04, 2022, 09:41:48 PM
When I think of Grand River meeting I-96 I think of the two interchanges in Detroit.
I've never understood why the section between Lansing and Detroit is called Grand River Ave, since it goes nowhere near The Grand River.
I think it was just the name given to the entire trail from when they were Indian footpaths and when the street layout of Detroit was made in 1805 it was part of that trail so the name stuck is my best guess at it. I read somewhere where they gave it that name because it paralleled at least half of the river's length. The Grand River goes south at Lansing toward Jackson though so it does seem odd but it's all one trail I know that much.
This was also back in the day when road names were just as popular as numbers are today. Many roads across the state, indeed many states, have a road name that spans 100 miles or more with the same name. Grand River, Michigan Gratiot, Dixie highway, Van Dyke are just some off the top of my head with a road name spanning many cities, counties and miles.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 04, 2022, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 04, 2022, 11:05:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 04, 2022, 09:41:48 PM
When I think of Grand River meeting I-96 I think of the two interchanges in Detroit.
I've never understood why the section between Lansing and Detroit is called Grand River Ave, since it goes nowhere near The Grand River.
I think it was just the name given to the entire trail from when they were Indian footpaths and when the street layout of Detroit was made in 1805 it was part of that trail so the name stuck is my best guess at it. I read somewhere where they gave it that name because it paralleled at least half of the river's length. The Grand River goes south at Lansing toward Jackson though so it does seem odd but it's all one trail I know that much.
But when you think about it, it really doesn't run along the river at all. It crosses the river in Portland and in Lansing, but other than that the road and the river are separated by several miles for almost the entire stretch. I never understood why exit 113 on I-69 is Grand River Rd. either.
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 06, 2022, 10:09:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 04, 2022, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 04, 2022, 11:05:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 04, 2022, 09:41:48 PM
When I think of Grand River meeting I-96 I think of the two interchanges in Detroit.
I've never understood why the section between Lansing and Detroit is called Grand River Ave, since it goes nowhere near The Grand River.
I think it was just the name given to the entire trail from when they were Indian footpaths and when the street layout of Detroit was made in 1805 it was part of that trail so the name stuck is my best guess at it. I read somewhere where they gave it that name because it paralleled at least half of the river's length. The Grand River goes south at Lansing toward Jackson though so it does seem odd but it's all one trail I know that much.
But when you think about it, it really doesn't run along the river at all. It crosses the river in Portland and in Lansing, but other than that the road and the river are separated by several miles for almost the entire stretch. I never understood why exit 113 on I-69 is Grand River Rd. either.
Not too closely it doesn't you're right. It actually crosses it twice in Lansing and once in Portland but other than that nope it doesn't cross it again. So it's got to be just what the trail got named and that's the name they went with. As for the one in Shiawassee County I think that was again part of a trail this time called the Pontiac and Grand River trail. That ends up as Round Lake Road in Clinton County and Cutler Road in Ionia County and intersects Grand River in Portland.
Grand River Ave follows the native trading trail that went from the Detroit area to the settlements in the Grand River Valley. Once white settlement started, the trail was given the Grand River name, and the name carried over to the road. It was never meant to be a road that followed a river bank.
Quote from: GaryV on July 07, 2022, 09:48:23 AM
Grand River Ave follows the native trading trail that went from the Detroit area to the settlements in the Grand River Valley. Once white settlement started, the trail was given the Grand River name, and the name carried over to the road. It was never meant to be a road that followed a river bank.
You'd think after all these years the name would have been changed to something more applicable.
Quote from: GaryV on July 07, 2022, 09:48:23 AM
Grand River Ave follows the native trading trail that went from the Detroit area to the settlements in the Grand River Valley. Once white settlement started, the trail was given the Grand River name, and the name carried over to the road. It was never meant to be a road that followed a river bank.
This is the routing that it follows. It comes in from the NE and turns on M-89, goes up to US-131 and goes south back to where it originally connected to go west toward South Haven. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3907303,-85.455287/42.2958593,-85.6665463/@42.3637659,-85.7477421,11z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1
Kalamazoo for some reason wanted to eliminate the state highway from going through downtown due to confusing one way streets that they made into two way streets. M-343 took over a part of the route but it ends at Riverview Drive about a half mile inside Kalamazoo city limits so it doesn't go through the city or even make it downtown.
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 08, 2022, 12:05:38 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 07, 2022, 09:48:23 AM
Grand River Ave follows the native trading trail that went from the Detroit area to the settlements in the Grand River Valley. Once white settlement started, the trail was given the Grand River name, and the name carried over to the road. It was never meant to be a road that followed a river bank.
You'd think after all these years the name would have been changed to something more applicable.
I really don't see any reason to change the name since it's already well established as GR Avenue and changing the name would just cause confusion.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 08, 2022, 08:37:13 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 07, 2022, 09:48:23 AM
Grand River Ave follows the native trading trail that went from the Detroit area to the settlements in the Grand River Valley. Once white settlement started, the trail was given the Grand River name, and the name carried over to the road. It was never meant to be a road that followed a river bank.
This is the routing that it follows. It comes in from the NE and turns on M-89, goes up to US-131 and goes south back to where it originally connected to go west toward South Haven. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3907303,-85.455287/42.2958593,-85.6665463/@42.3637659,-85.7477421,11z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1
Kalamazoo for some reason wanted to eliminate the state highway from going through downtown due to confusing one way streets that they made into two way streets. M-343 took over a part of the route but it ends at Riverview Drive about a half mile inside Kalamazoo city limits so it doesn't go through the city or even make it downtown.
I think you answered the wrong post in the wrong forum. ;)
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 08, 2022, 11:28:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 08, 2022, 08:37:13 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 07, 2022, 09:48:23 AM
Grand River Ave follows the native trading trail that went from the Detroit area to the settlements in the Grand River Valley. Once white settlement started, the trail was given the Grand River name, and the name carried over to the road. It was never meant to be a road that followed a river bank.
This is the routing that it follows. It comes in from the NE and turns on M-89, goes up to US-131 and goes south back to where it originally connected to go west toward South Haven. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3907303,-85.455287/42.2958593,-85.6665463/@42.3637659,-85.7477421,11z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1
Kalamazoo for some reason wanted to eliminate the state highway from going through downtown due to confusing one way streets that they made into two way streets. M-343 took over a part of the route but it ends at Riverview Drive about a half mile inside Kalamazoo city limits so it doesn't go through the city or even make it downtown.
I think you answered the wrong post in the wrong forum. ;)
Yeah I did GaryV noticed it yesterday and messaged me asking me about it too. I was wondering where that post that I made went and then I noticed I posted in the wrong thread.
That post that you quoted was my answer to your question about what happens to M-43 on both sides of Kalamazoo. Since I'm on this post though I'd say M-43 should be two highways, one from M-52 to M-89 and then one from US-131 to South Haven.
I drove through Kalamazoo last year and noticed that the removal of trunkline route signing was oddly selective.
- The eastern terminus of M-343 at M-89 in Richland has an END assembly. No END assembly at the western terminus at Riverview Drive.
- The BL I-94 shields along the remaining eastern portion between I-94 and Mills Street were replaced with BS I-94 shields and the eastern terminus has a new END assembly. No END assembly at the now-western terminus at Mills Street.
- No END assembly at the now-southern terminus of BS US-131 at Hopkins Street.
- None of the overhead BGSs in the city had been removed. At what is now the western terminus of M-343, the overhead M-43 DOWNTOWN sign still points motorists south on Riverview Drive toward Michigan Avenue. On wbd Kalamazoo Avenue at Westnedge Avenue, the overhead BGSs showing the correct lanes for M-43 and the business routes still remain. On ebd Michigan Avenue at Harrison Street, the poorly-placed overhead BGSs showing the M-43/BL I-94 split still remain. Of course, there are no longer any confirmation assemblies for any of these routes.
I wonder whether (a) this is MDOT sloppiness, or (b) Kalamazoo requested that MDOT do the sign removal in this half-assed fashion to continue routing unsuspecting motorists into the city.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 09, 2022, 01:23:30 PM
I drove through Kalamazoo last year and noticed that the removal of trunkline route signing was oddly selective.
- The eastern terminus of M-343 at M-89 in Richland has an END assembly. No END assembly at the western terminus at Riverview Drive.
- The BL I-94 shields along the remaining eastern portion between I-94 and Mills Street were replaced with BS I-94 shields and the eastern terminus has a new END assembly. No END assembly at the now-western terminus at Mills Street.
- No END assembly at the now-southern terminus of BS US-131 at Hopkins Street.
- None of the overhead BGSs in the city had been removed. At what is now the western terminus of M-343, the overhead M-43 DOWNTOWN sign still points motorists south on Riverview Drive toward Michigan Avenue. On wbd Kalamazoo Avenue at Westnedge Avenue, the overhead BGSs showing the correct lanes for M-43 and the business routes still remain. On ebd Michigan Avenue at Harrison Street, the poorly-placed overhead BGSs showing the M-43/BL I-94 split still remain. Of course, there are no longer any confirmation assemblies for any of these routes.
I wonder whether (a) this is MDOT sloppiness, or (b) Kalamazoo requested that MDOT do the sign removal in this half-assed fashion to continue routing unsuspecting motorists into the city.
I remember US-10 signs in Detroit as late as the 2000's. A sign would say US-10 Lodge Freeway and I got thinking are they ever going to replace these signs? They are all gone now I do believe but leave it to me I might find one lingering around someday who knows. It's probably MDOT being sloppy though. You should see the new signs on NB I-75 in Saginaw that are off centered.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 09, 2022, 08:58:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 08, 2022, 11:28:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 08, 2022, 08:37:13 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 07, 2022, 09:48:23 AM
Grand River Ave follows the native trading trail that went from the Detroit area to the settlements in the Grand River Valley. Once white settlement started, the trail was given the Grand River name, and the name carried over to the road. It was never meant to be a road that followed a river bank.
This is the routing that it follows. It comes in from the NE and turns on M-89, goes up to US-131 and goes south back to where it originally connected to go west toward South Haven. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3907303,-85.455287/42.2958593,-85.6665463/@42.3637659,-85.7477421,11z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1
Kalamazoo for some reason wanted to eliminate the state highway from going through downtown due to confusing one way streets that they made into two way streets. M-343 took over a part of the route but it ends at Riverview Drive about a half mile inside Kalamazoo city limits so it doesn't go through the city or even make it downtown.
I think you answered the wrong post in the wrong forum. ;)
Yeah I did GaryV noticed it yesterday and messaged me asking me about it too. I was wondering where that post that I made went and then I noticed I posted in the wrong thread.
If that ever happens, click "Report to moderator" on your own post (!) and let us know that it's in the wrong place.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 09, 2022, 11:26:35 PM
You should see the new signs on NB I-75 in Saginaw that are off centered.
If you're talking about overhead BGSs not having their bottom edges lined up with each other, I agree that's a sad design change. I know other states do it, but I think it looks sloppy as hell. It's not just in Saginaw; it's all over the state.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 11, 2022, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 09, 2022, 11:26:35 PM
You should see the new signs on NB I-75 in Saginaw that are off centered.
If you're talking about overhead BGSs not having their bottom edges lined up with each other, I agree that's a sad design change. I know other states do it, but I think it looks sloppy as hell. It's not just in Saginaw; it's all over the state.
This is how it used to look. But the sign on the left was taken down about 8-9 years ago, then put back up after this recent reconstruction. It looks sloppy now I agree. But here's a view back to when it looked right. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4258273,-83.8906482,3a,15.6y,2.27h,94.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV1wntXEGFvCvXcJbWcSKiw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Also I-675 sure has been closed a lot and under construction the past 15 years it seems like. It's only 7 miles long.
Not sure if this is an everyday thing but for the past 2 days I have noticed a speed trap by the Michigan State Police on the I-96 and I-69 concurrency on the west side of Lansing. I noticed as many as six State Police cruisers in that stretch and it looks like they're looking at both directions.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2022, 10:09:37 AM
Not sure if this is an everyday thing but for the past 2 days I have noticed a speed trap by the Michigan State Police on the I-96 and I-69 concurrency on the west side of Lansing. I noticed as many as six State Police cruisers in that stretch and it looks like they're looking at both directions.
State Patrol HQ is in the southwest corner of Lansing (Lansing and Canal). They also have their training facility there. So it never surprises me to see a lot of staties on that side of the city.
MDOT has launched a PEL study for the M-14/Barton Driver interchange in Ann Arbor. Considering how tight that interchange is and the number of accidents that occur there, I'm curious to see what improvements MDOT could implement there.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/planning-and-environmental-linkages-studies/m14-barton-drive-interchange
Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 13, 2022, 11:18:32 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2022, 10:09:37 AM
Not sure if this is an everyday thing but for the past 2 days I have noticed a speed trap by the Michigan State Police on the I-96 and I-69 concurrency on the west side of Lansing. I noticed as many as six State Police cruisers in that stretch and it looks like they're looking at both directions.
State Patrol HQ is in the southwest corner of Lansing (Lansing and Canal). They also have their training facility there. So it never surprises me to see a lot of staties on that side of the city.
That could be why.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 13, 2022, 04:51:55 PM
Crews have been building the steel structure for the new Second Avenue bridge over I-94 in downtown Detroit (part of the I-94 Modernization project). This will be the first network tied arch bridge in Michigan. The structure is being built in a Wayne State University parking lot on the south side of the freeway between Second and Third avenues.
I-94 will be closed for seven days while the new bridge structure is rolled into place on modular transports. This is anticipated to begin Sunday, July 10th. MDOT has scheduled a virtual open house this Thursday, June 16th, at 11:30am to discuss the bridge slide. Here is a link to the MDOT announcement, which itself includes a link to the Zoom meeting:
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/06/07/mdot-virtual-open-house-june-16-to-discuss--second-avenue-bridge-slide-over-i-94-in-detroit
I drove down yesterday and got a couple photos from across the freeway; I could not get up close. First photo is looking south across the westbound freeway lanes from Third Avenue. (The Third Avenue bridge was demolished and removed last year, and will not be replaced.)
(https://i.imgur.com/Uu6zvA5.jpg)
Second photo is looking southwest across the freeway from Second Avenue. The upright rebar is the abutment wall where the north end of the bridge will sit.
(https://i.imgur.com/AYDTVm6.jpg)
Both directions of I-94 between I-75 and M-10 in downtown Detroit will close at 4:00am this Friday 07/22 to move the bridge structure into place, and will reopen by 4:00am Friday 07/29.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/07/15/second-avenue-bridge-move-over-i-94-in-detroit-begins-july-22
Quote from: afguy on July 14, 2022, 08:17:45 PM
MDOT has launched a PEL study for the M-14/Barton Driver interchange in Ann Arbor. Considering how tight that interchange is and the number of accidents that occur there, I'm curious to see what improvements MDOT could implement there.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/planning-and-environmental-linkages-studies/m14-barton-drive-interchange
The study encompasses the entire stretch of M-14 from the US-23 interchange to after the ramps to Main St, including the bridge over the Huron River. It'll be interesting to see what MDOT ends up doing in the area.
Normally, this area would be ripe for a widening, and a C/D lane arrangement that separates the entering and existing traffic from the through traffic. The replacement bridge would end up roughly double the width of the original to provide enough room for said movements.
Many locals would prefer the freeway is removed altogether. There's extensive park space in and around the interchange. Residential homes and offices are up close to the roadway. Aside from the shared section with US-23, this would be the first section around Ann Arbor itself that would get a widening to 6 lanes.
This is the one section of M-14 that prevents an Interstate designation (not that MDOT is necessarily concerned about that) due to being substandard.
It'll be interesting to watch this one and see how MDOT pulls this off.
I-94 in Detroit to close Friday for installation of new Second Avenue bridge (https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/i-94-in-detroit-to-close-friday-for-installation-of-new-second-avenue-bridge)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52234815051_2eae842a0e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nzP5Fv)
It's really blurry (the image), but should give some idea of what the construction status was (as of last week) with the I-94/US-31 interchange in Benton Harbor.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 18, 2022, 06:39:50 PM
Both directions of I-94 between I-75 and M-10 in downtown Detroit will close at 4:00am this Friday 07/22 to move the bridge structure into place, and will reopen by 4:00am Friday 07/29.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/07/15/second-avenue-bridge-move-over-i-94-in-detroit-begins-july-22
Here's a picture showing the progress of the bridge slide:
(https://i.redd.it/ls4i0yr0ald91.jpg)
Edit: Found this Twitter post with a time-lapse video showing the progress:
https://twitter.com/LtGovGilchrist/status/1551612566543257601
I found this tidbit about two future construction projects planned for U.S. 127/I-496 in Lansing. MDOT currently has several major projects planned for U.S. 127 between the Ingham/Jackson County line and I-69. The two projects that caught my eye are planned reconstruction of U.S. 127/I-496 between I-96 and I-496. This project will begin in 2023 and finally add a 3rd lane to this segment. The final project is between I-496 and I-69. This project will rebuild and realign U.S. 127 between I-496 and Kalamazoo St. For the last project I'm curious to see how it will turn out.
QuoteBridge replacement of the southbound US-127 ramp to westbound I-496 and the eastbound I-496 ramp to northbound US-127
MDOT is investing approximately $8 million to replace two bridges within the US-127/I-496 interchange in Ingham County. This work will take place in spring 2023.
QuoteUS-127/I-496 from I-96 to I-496
MDOT is proposing to rebuild and provide operational improvements on this segment of US-127/I-496 to address safety concerns, improve roadway geometrics, and improve vehicular movement, all while keeping future maintenance concerns, the environment, and cost-effectiveness in mind for roadway users by adding a permanent third lane through this corridor. This major project will also include improving and rebuilding bridges through this segment, as well as upgrades to drainage, signs, intelligent transportation systems (ITS), and pavement markings. This work is proposed to occur from summer 2023 through 2025
QuoteUS-127 from I-496 to I-69
MDOT is proposing to rebuild and realign a portion of US-127 from I-496 to Kalamazoo Street to improve roadway geometrics, safety, and vehicular movement through this corridor. MDOT is proposing to improve the freeway from Kalamazoo Street north to I-69, with concrete pavement repairs and an asphalt overlay. In addition to this work, the project would improve bridges through this corridor as well as upgrade drainage, signs, ITS, and pavement markings. This work is proposed to begin in spring 2025.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/us-route-construction/us127-resurfacing-project-ingham-county#:~:text=and%20I%2D496.-,US%2D127%2FI%2D496%20from,I%2D96%20to%20I%2D496&text=This%20major%20project%20will%20also,from%20summer%202023%20through%202025.
Quote from: afguy on July 25, 2022, 03:30:38 PM
The two projects that caught my eye are planned reconstruction of U.S. 127/I-496 between I-96 and I-496. This project will begin in 2023 and finally add a 3rd lane to this segment. The final project is between I-496 and I-69. This project will rebuild and realign U.S. 127 between I-496 and Kalamazoo St. For the last project I'm curious to see how it will turn out.
I'm slightly amazed that MDOT didn't try to cram a Flex Lane down this stretch of US-127, or rebuild it as a 4-lane freeway instead. Then again, it has a number of narrow overpasses over other roads that are at the end of their design life (not to mention the accident-prone Trowbridge Rd exit). Since they have to replace a bunch of bridges anyway, 6-laning is kind of a no-brainer.
The rebuild at I-496/Trowbridge Rd might be simpler if they flip-flop the NBD lane assignments. Currently I-496 veers left while US-127 stays right. If instead US-127 breaks off to the left and I-496 to the right, the curves for US-127 can be made shallower. There's land that MDOT can expand into just east of the current highway to make a more gentle turn for Trowbridge Rd and to ease the curve for I-496, without having to take buildings.
The other advantage with flip-flopping the US-127/I-496 split is that both the NBD US-127 and WBD I-496 on-ramps from Trowbridge can be combined, with an appropriate split farther down, and the ability to make both on-ramps enter the highway from the right. They can also start a weave-merge lane back before Trowbridge Rd for drivers exiting at Kalamazoo Ave for Frandor, to limit the amount of rapid weaving and merging needed. Ultimately, this might require a fourth lane at the point they merge the Trowbridge and I-496 traffic into NBD US-127, and carrying the third lane past Lake Lansing Rd.
SBD US-127 could also carry a 4th lane south of Saginaw St, with US-127 taking the left 2 lanes, I-496 exiting from the 3rd lane, and Trowbridge Rd traffic taking the 4th lane at the split. About 3/4 mile to cut over 2 lanes from Saginaw isn't ideal, but not a deal-killer. The on-ramps from Kalamazoo St can be unkinked and laid out more logically, without forcing Trowbridge Rd traffic to hop on and off US-127 in rapid succession. Someone with more time to doodle is welcome to sketch it out for the rest of us. :bigass:
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 19, 2022, 08:29:21 AM
Quote from: afguy on July 14, 2022, 08:17:45 PM
MDOT has launched a PEL study for the M-14/Barton Driver interchange in Ann Arbor. Considering how tight that interchange is and the number of accidents that occur there, I'm curious to see what improvements MDOT could implement there.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/planning-and-environmental-linkages-studies/m14-barton-drive-interchange
The study encompasses the entire stretch of M-14 from the US-23 interchange to after the ramps to Main St, including the bridge over the Huron River. It'll be interesting to see what MDOT ends up doing in the area.
Normally, this area would be ripe for a widening, and a C/D lane arrangement that separates the entering and existing traffic from the through traffic. The replacement bridge would end up roughly double the width of the original to provide enough room for said movements.
Many locals would prefer the freeway is removed altogether. There's extensive park space in and around the interchange. Residential homes and offices are up close to the roadway. Aside from the shared section with US-23, this would be the first section around Ann Arbor itself that would get a widening to 6 lanes.
This is the one section of M-14 that prevents an Interstate designation (not that MDOT is necessarily concerned about that) due to being substandard.
It'll be interesting to watch this one and see how MDOT pulls this off.
I hope the NIMBYs in Ann Arbor don't get this freeway removed. Because it's a northern bypass of Ann Arbor for people coming from Detroit's west / north suburbs to westbound I 94, it carries a lot of through traffic that would have to take US 23 south to join I 94 on the southeast side of Ann Arbor.
Also, it's a good way to get to U of M stadium even though downtown Ann Arbor is between M 14 and the stadium. I shudder at how much worse traffic would get on days when U of M was playing at home if the large number of U of M alumni in Bloomfield Hills and Birmingham couldn't take this freeway to "the big house".
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on July 26, 2022, 03:10:34 PM
I hope the NIMBYs in Ann Arbor don't get this freeway removed. Because it's a northern bypass of Ann Arbor for people coming from Detroit's west / north suburbs to westbound I 94, it carries a lot of through traffic that would have to take US 23 south to join I 94 on the southeast side of Ann Arbor.
Also, it's a good way to get to U of M stadium even though downtown Ann Arbor is between M 14 and the stadium. I shudder at how much worse traffic would get on days when U of M was playing at home if the large number of U of M alumni in Bloomfield Hills and Birmingham couldn't take this freeway to "the big house".
Just to clarify, I fully expect M-14 won't be going anywhere. What I fear is that MDOT will either go cheap, or the NIMBYs force MDOT to only make "safety" improvements and won't be allowed to add the third lane in each direction or a proper weave/merge area for entering and exiting traffic. That bridge over the Huron was not designed with M-14 in mind - it was for US-23 (or Business US-23) into and out of downtown Ann Arbor. That stretch definitely wasn't built for the traffic it gets now.
The only section of freeway around Ann Arbor that doesn't need 6 (or 8)-laning would be M-14 west of Main St, since traffic drops off enough there to not need it. The US-23/M-14 multiplex should be widened to 8 lanes. I-94 east of M-14 needs to be bumped to 6 lanes. US-23 south of M-14 to at least US-12 needs 6-laning - maybe 8-laning between Washtenaw Ave and I-94. Washtenaw Ave's cloverleaf needs to be converted to a SPUI or diverging diamond interchange.
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 26, 2022, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on July 26, 2022, 03:10:34 PM
I hope the NIMBYs in Ann Arbor don't get this freeway removed. Because it's a northern bypass of Ann Arbor for people coming from Detroit's west / north suburbs to westbound I 94, it carries a lot of through traffic that would have to take US 23 south to join I 94 on the southeast side of Ann Arbor.
Also, it's a good way to get to U of M stadium even though downtown Ann Arbor is between M 14 and the stadium. I shudder at how much worse traffic would get on days when U of M was playing at home if the large number of U of M alumni in Bloomfield Hills and Birmingham couldn't take this freeway to "the big house".
Just to clarify, I fully expect M-14 won't be going anywhere. What I fear is that MDOT will either go cheap, or the NIMBYs force MDOT to only make "safety" improvements and won't be allowed to add the third lane in each direction or a proper weave/merge area for entering and exiting traffic. That bridge over the Huron was not designed with M-14 in mind - it was for US-23 (or Business US-23) into and out of downtown Ann Arbor. That stretch definitely wasn't built for the traffic it gets now.
The only section of freeway around Ann Arbor that doesn't need 6 (or 8)-laning would be M-14 west of Main St, since traffic drops off enough there to not need it. The US-23/M-14 multiplex should be widened to 8 lanes. I-94 east of M-14 needs to be bumped to 6 lanes. US-23 south of M-14 to at least US-12 needs 6-laning - maybe 8-laning between Washtenaw Ave and I-94. Washtenaw Ave's cloverleaf needs to be converted to a SPUI or diverging diamond interchange.
I agree with that as well. It makes no since to me that M-14 isn't 6 lanes from Main St east to Plymouth. Also, I-94 and U.S.23 should have been widened years ago. One interesting note is that MDOT is planning to rebuild U.S. 23 between I-94 and M-14 in 2026. I would hope MDOT plans on adding a flex lane or third lane when they rebuild this stretch. There's just way too much growth and congestion along that stretch.
As part of the Rebuilding Michigan program, MDOT is planning to rebuild U.S. 131 between the Allegan/Kent County and 76th Street. The project will include adding a weave/merge lane on U.S. 131 between 84th and 76th street, plus a concrete median barrier. Honestly, I never understood why MDOT never made U.S. 131 six lanes between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo. There's a lot of truck traffic along that route and Grand Rapids is slowly, but surely growing south toward Kalamazoo. Also, The U.S. 131 freeway needs to be extended to the Indiana Toll Road.
QuoteGrand Region: US-31 from Allegan/Kent County Line to 76th Street
Work Activity: 2024-2025
Location: Byron Township
Type of Work: Road Improvements and Rebuilding
-Improve operations and safety in this growing area with weave-merge lanes between 84th Street and 76th Street interchanges[/li][/list]
-Construction of a concrete median barrier, saving on maintenance needs and costs[/li][/list]
-Culvert replacement and improvements to minimize stream disruption[/li][/list]
-Stormwater management improvements promoting longer pavement life and more reliable driving surfaces
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/programs/planning/five-year-transportation-program/road-and-bridge-highlights
The flex lane is the stupidest idea ever. Just add the third lane and be done with it how freaking hard is that? And while I'm at it why has almost nothing been done to US-23 in years? It's a federal highway that serves an important corridor and MDOT just leaves it at four lanes for all but the M-14 concurrency and the stupid flex lanes between the Ohio line and Flint. I-94 is another one that should have already been widened throughout the state. Basically all the way from I-196 to at least 23 Mile Road needs an extra lane in each direction. I can't count how many times I've come off SB I-69 to WB I-94 and been held up all the way to Kalamazoo by truck traffic. I-196 to 23 Mile Road is 209 miles so that right there tells you how far behind they are. And US-23 is 90 miles of headache between Flint and the Ohio border.
Honestly I think with the development and everything it would be very hard to widen I-94 in Ann Arbor between M-14 and US-23. A re-route of the highway might need to be done in order to do that.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:32:37 PM
The flex lane is the stupidest idea ever. Just add the third lane and be done with it how freaking hard is that? And while I'm at it why has almost nothing been done to US-23 in years? It's a federal highway that serves an important corridor and MDOT just leaves it at four lanes for all but the M-14 concurrency and the stupid flex lanes between the Ohio line and Flint. I-94 is another one that should have already been widened throughout the state. Basically all the way from I-196 to at least 23 Mile Road needs an extra lane in each direction. I can't count how many times I've come off SB I-69 to WB I-94 and been held up all the way to Kalamazoo by truck traffic. I-196 to 23 Mile Road is 209 miles so that right there tells you how far behind they are. And US-23 is 90 miles of headache between Flint and the Ohio border.
Honestly I think with the development and everything it would be very hard to widen I-94 in Ann Arbor between M-14 and US-23. A re-route of the highway might need to be done in order to do that.
While I certainly agree that I-94 and U.S. 23 should have been widened years ago, a lot of this comes down to MDOT's budget. Everyone knows that spending on roads in Michigan needs to increase, but the politicians in Lansing don't seem to be in the mood for any sort of tax increase to fix the damn roads. Michigan spends far less on its roads than its neighbors to the south, Ohio and Indiana and it shows. Until the budget for MDOT is increased, you will continue to see our state's infrastructure crumble and these poor-man's widenings called flex lanes continue to be built.
Quote from: afguy on July 27, 2022, 01:58:13 PMThe U.S. 131 freeway needs to be extended to the Indiana Toll Road.
This. Heck, even just some proper freeway bypass(es) of Three Rivers and/or Constantine would make a world of a difference.
Right now, the best way to go south appears to be either US-31 or I-69, depending on where you're starting and where you're going. But US-131 could do a much better job than both of these if it was upgraded. Much straighter path.
The draft 2023-2027 Five-Year Plan is now available on MDOT's website. The only highlights for me are the 1-375 removal project that will begin in 2027 and the total reconstruction of U.S. 23 between I-94 and M-14, including replacing all the bridges along that stretch. I'm really hoping MDOT adds a third lane here because that stretch of U.S. 23 needs it.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Five-Year-Transportation-Program/2023-2027-Draft-5YTP.pdf?rev=7be7999b307e4779a0aa4a9b8c2a80bd&hash=F042F924BA941C9D5B0C255B01212DCC
Every time I drive past US 23 in the afternoon (especially around 3-4pm), it was always on jam, especially around Ann Arbor.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:32:37 PM
Honestly I think with the development and everything it would be very hard to widen I-94 in Ann Arbor between M-14 and US-23. A re-route of the highway might need to be done in order to do that.
A 6 to 8-lane fully Interstate-standard freeway needs, at a minimum:
10-foot outer shoulder
3-4 12-foot travel lanes
10 foot inner shoulder
12 feet in the median for bridge abutments, drainage, barrier, etc
10 foot inner shoulder
3-4 12-foot travel lanes
10 foot outer shoulder
Total minimum width: 124 feet for 6 lanes, 148 feet for 8 lanes
I-94 is sitting on 200' right-of-way. So even if they jam in 8 lanes through there, there's room. Even with 8 lanes, there's 26 feet on each side to install barriers, noise walls, and whatever else might be needed. If MDOT purchases additional right-of-way width, it's because it's cheaper to do so v.s. the cost to jam it into the 200' wide footprint.
The Lodge Freeway (M-10) squeezes a 6-lane freeway into a 100-foot wide footprint between the service drives. They cheat a little by cantilevering a few feet of guardrail and service drive over the freeway. But they can be forgiven - consider that those 6 lanes of freeway, full-width outer shoulders, 12 feet in the middle for bridge abutment, barrier, and lighting, 6 lanes of service drives, a few feet of grass strip, and outer sidewalks all fit into 200 feet of right-of-way.
By comparison, I-94 around Ann Arbor is a cakewalk - mainly suburban, and room for modest additional amounts of ROW without touching any buildings. It would certainly be easier if MDOT was working with 300 ' or 400' of ROW, but
Quote from: afguy on July 31, 2022, 02:18:41 PM
The draft 2023-2027 Five-Year Plan is now available on MDOT's website. The only highlights for me are the 1-375 removal project that will begin in 2027 and the total reconstruction of U.S. 23 between I-94 and M-14, including replacing all the bridges along that stretch. I'm really hoping MDOT adds a third lane here because that stretch of U.S. 23 needs it.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Five-Year-Transportation-Program/2023-2027-Draft-5YTP.pdf?rev=7be7999b307e4779a0aa4a9b8c2a80bd&hash=F042F924BA941C9D5B0C255B01212DCC (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Five-Year-Transportation-Program/2023-2027-Draft-5YTP.pdf?rev=7be7999b307e4779a0aa4a9b8c2a80bd&hash=F042F924BA941C9D5B0C255B01212DCC)
Pretty safe bet it's going to be at a minimum 6 lanes, and probably 8 between Washtenaw Ave and I-94. Unlike US-23 north of M-14, the overpasses are wide enough as they sit now to take 6 lanes. Even if that was a problem, they're replacing the bridges anyway, so there's no cost benefit to building a "Flex Lane". They *might* build the outer shoulder wide enough for Flex Lanes, but that'll be in addition to 6 full-time travel lanes.
The whole Flex Lane thing for north of M-14 was about buying time before having to completely replace the roadway from the ground up. As much as we despise the idea, it working well enough for MDOT to expand its use to other areas.
As pointed out earlier, MDOT is working with a limited budget that could easily be curtailed further out of political expediency. US-23 north of Ann Arbor is a busy roadway, yes, but there are freeways in Michigan that need widening more. I'd rather the money for widening got prioritized for things like I-94 (and it's > 10,000 commercial trucks per day) than for a roadway like US-23 that's mostly commuter traffic.
I found this interesting section in the 5-year plan:
County: Houghton
Route: US-41
Location: US-41 and M-26, Railroad (Abandoned) over
Portage Lake and EB M-26
Type of work: Bridge Miscellaneous
$ allocated in 2023
County: Houghton
Route: US-41
Location: US-41 and M-26, Railroad (Abandoned) over
Portage Lake and EB M-26
Type of work: Special Needs
$ allocated in 2023
County: Houghton
Route: US-41
Location: US-41 and M-26, Railroad (Abandoned) over
Portage Lake and EB M-26
Type of work: Bridge Replacement
$ allocated in 2026
This is obviously about the Portage Lake Lift Bridge connecting Houghton to Hancock. It is fairly old (opened to traffic in 1959) but still in fair condition according to the National Bridge Inventory. It was recognized as a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark by the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) on June 17.
I would be surprised if MDOT was seriously considering a full replacement in the next 20 years. It is expensive to maintain, but any alternative that would functionally replace it would also be expensive. I also doubt MDOT is seriously entertaining the idea of an out-of-town bypass, which would go over like a copper balloon (100 years ago it was a major copper mining area).
Update: Apparently, this funding is for a deck replacement, which makes complete sense.
Speaking of the bridges on U.S. 23 north of M-14, MDOT is planning to replace the Warren and Joy Rod bridges over U.S. 23 in 2026.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/07/05/us-31-m-22-roundabout-project-in-manistee-township-starts-july-12 (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/07/05/us-31-m-22-roundabout-project-in-manistee-township-starts-july-12)
MDOT began a project to convert the US-31/M-22 intersection near the Little River Casino north of Manistee into a roundabout. Construction will run through October 2022. The Little River tribe apparently is kicking in some money on the project as they expect to benefit from the finished project, making it safer (presumably) for northbound US-31 travelers to navigate to the casino. The old intersection was at an odd angle and controlled only by flasher signals and stop signs.
Quote from: vegas1962 on August 01, 2022, 06:00:21 PM
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/07/05/us-31-m-22-roundabout-project-in-manistee-township-starts-july-12 (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/07/05/us-31-m-22-roundabout-project-in-manistee-township-starts-july-12)
MDOT began a project to convert the US-31/M-22 intersection near the Little River Casino north of Manistee into a roundabout. Construction will run through October 2022. The Little River tribe apparently is kicking in some money on the project as they expect to benefit from the finished project, making it safer (presumably) for northbound US-31 travelers to navigate to the casino. The old intersection was at an odd angle and controlled only by flasher signals and stop signs.
All they needed to do was to put up a traffic signal. What a waste!
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on July 31, 2022, 03:08:27 PM
Every time I drive past US 23 in the afternoon (especially around 3-4pm), it was always on jam, especially around Ann Arbor.
Did MDOT ever widen M-14 east of US-23 to make it a full 6-laner between US-23 & I-96/275?
Quote from: thenetwork on August 01, 2022, 08:54:30 PM
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on July 31, 2022, 03:08:27 PM
Every time I drive past US 23 in the afternoon (especially around 3-4pm), it was always on jam, especially around Ann Arbor.
Did MDOT ever widen M-14 east of US-23 to make it a full 6-laner between US-23 & I-96/275?
No, unfortunately MDOT has not widened M-14 east of US-23. The only six lane sections of M-14 are the short section with US-23 and the section from just east of Ridge Rd to the I-96/I-275 Interchange in Livonia.
Quote from: afguy on August 01, 2022, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on August 01, 2022, 08:54:30 PM
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on July 31, 2022, 03:08:27 PM
Every time I drive past US 23 in the afternoon (especially around 3-4pm), it was always on jam, especially around Ann Arbor.
Did MDOT ever widen M-14 east of US-23 to make it a full 6-laner between US-23 & I-96/275?
No, unfortunately MDOT has not widened M-14 east of US-23. The only six lane sections of M-14 are the short section with US-23 and the section from just east of Ridge Rd to the I-96/I-275 Interchange in Livonia.
Does MDOT ever do anything right or in a timely fashion?
A few more projects from the latest 5-year plan that caught my eye include MDOT's plans to replace every bridge along US-127 north of I-496 to I-69 with the exception of the State Rd bridge. MDOT is also replacing the US-23 bridges around Milan at Plank Rd, Milan-Oakville Rd, Saline River and Carpenter Rd in 2023. My only criticism of the US-23 project is that they are not replacing the railroad bridge in this area as well. By not replacing this bridge now, it will cost more in the long run when MDOT ever does decide US-23. The final project that caught my eye, while not listed in the 5-year plan is a project to rehabilitate I-75 between W. Court St and the northern terminus of I-475 and to replace bridges at Carpenter and Coldwater Roads in 2028. I seriously hope MDOT adds a fourth lane to this section of I-75 as it is needed. The I-75 project can be seen on this interactive map on MDOT's website.
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/f3a4872ac4444f5eac3adf4c656d0a53/page/page_0/?views=view_3
Other than extreme rural areas every Interstate in Michigan could use an extra lane in each direction.
Here's a rendering the "braid" design that MDOT is constructing to take EB and WB I-696 traffic to NB I-75 as part of the I-75 Modernization Project in Oakland County. Work on the I-75/I-696 interchange is supposed to wrap up in November.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmodernize75.com%2Fmedia%2Ffuui1xqa%2Fi-75-11-mile-road-interchange-proposed-rendering.jpg&hash=f98249d13383ba002e6a6136d8dae9d079f404af)
The Grand Traverse County Road Commission is planning to build a $100 million bridge that would cross the Boardman River. If built, it would be the third longest bridge in Michigan.
$100 million bridge planned for Traverse City would be third longest in state(https://www.mlive.com/resizer/j3abCKEzn8_yaJ40q3ZNSoBMSoc=/800x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/EIPK4M4TVJDEJHGQGYCCS5QB6A.jpg)
QuoteThe Grand Traverse County Road Commission has been working for decades to build a new crossing over the Boardman River, the report said. The board recently voted to accept Hartman-Hammond as the preferred location.
If everything goes smoothly, it will be another six years before vehicles are driving over the river at that spot, the report said. Environmental review, property acquisition, design/engineering will all come before an estimated two-year construction process. Federal, state and local funding will also need to come through.
https://www.mlive.com/news/2022/08/100-million-bridge-planned-for-traverse-city-would-be-third-longest-in-state.html
Quote from: afguy on August 09, 2022, 07:01:23 PM
The Grand Traverse County Road Commission is planning to build a $100 million bridge that would cross the Boardman River. If built, it would be the third longest bridge in Michigan.
That mainly goes to show how rare long bridges are in Michigan. We can argue whether this would truly stand as the 3rd longest bridge in Michigan - I-196 over the Grand River and US-131 clocks in at 2800', for instance. Still, 2000' isn't anything to sneeze at.
If anywhere in northern Michigan justifies such an investment, it would be Traverse City. I just wonder what $100 million could accomplish in terms of improving traffic if it wasn't sunk into a new bridge.
Boy, it sure doesn't look like a hundred million dollar bridge.
A two-lane span over a small river and its floodplain costs that much? Ouch. (or is that four-lane undivided? hard to tell from image. Either way, ouch.)
Location:
http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=44.71527,-445.61946&z=14&t=M (http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=44.71527,-445.61946&z=14&t=M)
There's a bridge a mile north and a bridge a mile south over this river. I guess it'll be one leg of a rather half-ass bypass route around Traverse City. I dunno; seems like a huge cost for a mostly redundant crossing in a place that will never build what's actually needed to get people around.
Seems the authors got fact-checked out of their "third longest bridge" claim. They pointed to M-231 over the Grand River.
To me, I think they've got more than 2,000 feet of the 3 (soon to be 4) international bridges in their state so that further dilutes the claim.
The International bridges are all over 2,000 feet but only half the bridge is in Michigan in each case. Also the Rouge River Bridge also on I-75 is longer than the Zilwaukee Bridge is.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 10, 2022, 11:58:25 AM
Seems the authors got fact-checked out of their "third longest bridge" claim. They pointed to M-231 over the Grand River.
To me, I think they've got more than 2,000 feet of the 3 (soon to be 4) international bridges in their state so that further dilutes the claim.
Granted, it was 7 years ago, but $151 million paid for the entire 2-lane M-231 bypass, including a 300' ROW, several overpasses, and 7 miles of 2-lane roadway.
It sounds like, being a new build bridge, Grand Traverse County is being forced to build a high structure here, which certainly jacks up the costs. It's also not clear what amount of money is dedicated to other improvements along Hartman-Hammond to accommodate the anticipated traffic.
The costs don't stop at the new bridge, however. It will also require heavy maintenance costs to keep it functional through its design life, which may or may not be sustainable. It's not like county governments in Michigan are doing so hot at bridge maintenance on much lesser spans.
MDOT is planning a $50 million upgrade for Michigan Ave between Campus Martius and I-96.
Michigan Avenue in Detroit's Corktown to undergo $50 million overhaul(https://s3-prod.crainsdetroit.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_792/public/Corktown%20mobility%20corridor_i.jpg)
QuoteThe project, scheduled to start in 2024, is intended to tie into Ford Motor Co.'s renovation of Michigan Central Station, the nation's first wireless EV-charging road and the broader vision of creating a "connected corridor" from Detroit to Ann Arbor.
The Detroit Mobility and Innovation Corridor will include:
Expanded sidewalks and pedestrian amenities such as seating, lighting and street trees
- Raised bike lanes at sidewalk level for areas with existing lanes, new dedicated and buffered bike lanes downtown and bike racks
- Two center-running dedicated lanes for transit vehicles and for connected and autonomous vehicles, with transit signal priority to limit waiting time
- Concrete transit islands and new shelters with improved amenities
- Additional/enhanced mid-block pedestrian crossings with improved markings and islands
- New signalized intersections
The red brick drag at the heart of Corktown, beloved for its historical value but bemoaned by motorists for its poor condition, will be replaced by new red concrete pavers while the old brick "will be carefully removed, restored, and reincorporated into other aspects of the roadway's design," according to the RAISE grant application.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/infrastructure/michigan-avenue-corktown-get-50-million-overhaul (https://www.crainsdetroit.com/infrastructure/michigan-avenue-corktown-get-50-million-overhaul)
Quote from: afguy on August 08, 2022, 08:23:35 PM
Here's a rendering the "braid" design that MDOT is constructing to take EB and WB I-696 traffic to NB I-75 as part of the I-75 Modernization Project in Oakland County. Work on the I-75/I-696 interchange is supposed to wrap up in November.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmodernize75.com%2Fmedia%2Ffuui1xqa%2Fi-75-11-mile-road-interchange-proposed-rendering.jpg&hash=f98249d13383ba002e6a6136d8dae9d079f404af)
Here's another sketch showing the complete movements:
(https://i.imgur.com/2P8ASrZ.jpg)
Why are all highways in Michigan called Trunklines?
Quote from: roadman65 on August 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Why are all highways in Michigan called Trunklines?
As stated on my website's glossary (https://www.paulacrossamerica.com/glossary.html#Trunk_Highway), "Trunk" is a word to describe highways used by people who like talking about trees. :sombrero:
Quote from: roadman65 on August 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Why are all highways in Michigan called Trunklines?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trunk%20line#:~:text=Definition%20of%20trunk%20line,b%20%3A%20trunk%20sense%205b
Quote from: roadman65 on August 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Why are all highways in Michigan called Trunklines?
When the system was created in 1913, the legislation called them "State Reward Trunk Line Highways". Over the years, "reward" was removed from the name (the state was no longer paying county road commissions to maintain the highways on its behalf) and the space was removed to result in "trunkline". As mentioned above, a "trunkline" implies a main corridor in a transportation system, and since traffic funnels onto the state highways to pass from place to place, that adjective is appropriate.
Quote from: afguy on August 02, 2022, 10:17:21 PM
My only criticism of the US-23 project is that they are not replacing the railroad bridge in this area as well. By not replacing this bridge now, it will cost more in the long run when MDOT ever does decide US-23.
Railroad bridges are usually owned and maintained by whichever rail company owns the tracks crossing it. MDOT probably can't touch it without the involvement of the rail company.
MDOT has unveiled three options for improving the ramps at M-14/Barton Drive. I personally prefer the 4th option which is the "dogbone" interchange design.
Potential changes to Ann Arbor M-14 interchange could include extended ramps, roundabouts(https://www.mlive.com/resizer/aPfHFudHnlY1vvwQshFbXcaTNiA=/800x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/EETIGGSH3JEFXJOK6Z2PIBQS2Y.JPG)
QuoteOfficials have now unveiled some concepts under consideration to reconfigure the interchange. They include four alternatives, with the first representing the status quo and no additional construction or changes, for comparison with the other options.The second would involve closing the eastbound M-14 ramps at Barton Drive, without changing the westbound ramps. Approximately 10,000 vehicles a day use the eastbound ramps, according to an MDOT video presentation.The third, "modified loop" design would move the eastbound ramps further north on MDOT property, allowing for free-flowing traffic to merge onto the highway without having to slow to a stop.
Designs show the reconfiguration would also include a nature trail connection crossing the ramps. A trail now runs from Whitmore Lake Road, through a tunnel under M-14 north of the current ramps and on to Pontiac Trail.The last, "dog bone" design is configured as a diamond interchange with single-lane roundabouts at the end of the ramps, connecting both sides of the highway to Whitmore Lake Road, where another traffic circle would be installed.
Sidewalks and trail connections are also included in the design, indicated in light blue.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2022/09/potential-changes-to-ann-arbor-m-14-interchange-could-include-extended-ramps-roundabouts.html
Quote from: bulldog1979 on August 25, 2022, 06:03:56 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Why are all highways in Michigan called Trunklines?
When the system was created in 1913, the legislation called them "State Reward Trunk Line Highways". Over the years, "reward" was removed from the name (the state was no longer paying county road commissions to maintain the highways on its behalf) and the space was removed to result in "trunkline". As mentioned above, a "trunkline" implies a main corridor in a transportation system, and since traffic funnels onto the state highways to pass from place to place, that adjective is appropriate.
Here's another comment from MN about this:
QuoteA trunk highway system is a network of interstates and state highways that, similar to the trunk of a tree, serves as a main route connecting cities, ports, airports and other important locations within the state, Barnard said.
https://www.startribune.com/minnesta-trunk-or-state-highway-what-s-the-difference/568611692/#:~:text=A%20trunk%20highway%20system%20is,within%20the%20state%2C%20Barnard%20said. (possible paywall)
As far as I know, MN, WI and MI are the only three states that use trunk or trunkline highway, and in MN at least, every state-numbered road is a trunk highway internally including interstates and US routes.
Quote from: afguy on September 15, 2022, 03:25:52 PM
MDOT has unveiled three options for improving the ramps at M-14/Barton Drive. I personally prefer the 4th option which is the "dogbone" interchange design.
Potential changes to Ann Arbor M-14 interchange could include extended ramps, roundabouts
That dogbone option makes a lot of sense. It's easy for drivers to figure out. It ultimately takes up less space. It allows for proper distance to enter and exit the highway. It's appropriately sized for the volume it will receive. All of this is assuming that there's matching weave/merge lanes on the south side of the bridge for N Main/Bus US-23 traffic entering and exiting M-14.
Ideally, MDOT would replace the bridge with a 10-lane wide structure with proper shoulders, and a barrier separating 6 through travel lanes from 4 weave/merge lanes.
I'm glad a proposal to replace the Barton Drive interchange has finally come. That interchange is horrible, though I will miss its quirky 1960's design. I think the dogbone option is the best, as it lengthens the weaving lane for southbound traffic for the Main Street exit somewhat, while the longer and straighter ramp would also lessen the speed differential at the weave. Though I question the need for the roundabout at the southbound exit/entrance, no one is going to need to turn left onto M-14 south after exiting northbound or vice versa. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a straight ramp there with an exit to M-14 south for the eastbound portion on the westbound part of the ramp have the M-14 south exit ramp merge?
The T's have been crossed, the I's have been dotted and the funding is now officially secured for the downsizing of I-375:
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2022/09/15/feds-repair-black-bottom-damage-i-375-detroit/69494632007/
That's disappointing, though not unexpected. The proposed downgrade has been in the works since 2013.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2022, 12:09:08 PM
That's disappointing, though not unexpected. The proposed downgrade has been in the works since 2013.
Who cares about the demolition of a freeway that hardly anyone uses?
I do find it hillarious that people are raving about a few acres of surplus land in a city where entire blocks are vacant.
Quote from: kernals12 on September 18, 2022, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2022, 12:09:08 PM
That's disappointing, though not unexpected. The proposed downgrade has been in the works since 2013.
Who cares about the demolition of a freeway that hardly anyone uses?
I do find it hillarious that people are raving about a few acres of surplus land in a city where entire blocks are vacant.
It gets people talking and thinking that Detroit is instantly going to become great again overnight.
It's still fine that it's being downgraded though.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on September 18, 2022, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on September 18, 2022, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2022, 12:09:08 PM
That's disappointing, though not unexpected. The proposed downgrade has been in the works since 2013.
Who cares about the demolition of a freeway that hardly anyone uses?
I do find it hillarious that people are raving about a few acres of surplus land in a city where entire blocks are vacant.
It gets people talking and thinking that Detroit is instantly going to become great again overnight.
It's still fine that it's being downgraded though.
There's absolutely no reason to waste money on such stupidity. It is what it is. Detroit is what it is. That neighborhood is what it is.
Quote from: Terry Shea on September 18, 2022, 06:20:08 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on September 18, 2022, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on September 18, 2022, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2022, 12:09:08 PM
That's disappointing, though not unexpected. The proposed downgrade has been in the works since 2013.
Who cares about the demolition of a freeway that hardly anyone uses?
I do find it hillarious that people are raving about a few acres of surplus land in a city where entire blocks are vacant.
It gets people talking and thinking that Detroit is instantly going to become great again overnight.
It's still fine that it's being downgraded though.
There's absolutely no reason to waste money on such stupidity. It is what it is. Detroit is what it is. That neighborhood is what it is.
Nothing's going to change overnight, but removing that freeway very much could transform that neighborhood over a decade or two.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 18, 2022, 06:36:20 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on September 18, 2022, 06:20:08 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on September 18, 2022, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on September 18, 2022, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2022, 12:09:08 PM
That's disappointing, though not unexpected. The proposed downgrade has been in the works since 2013.
Who cares about the demolition of a freeway that hardly anyone uses?
I do find it hillarious that people are raving about a few acres of surplus land in a city where entire blocks are vacant.
It gets people talking and thinking that Detroit is instantly going to become great again overnight.
It's still fine that it's being downgraded though.
There's absolutely no reason to waste money on such stupidity. It is what it is. Detroit is what it is. That neighborhood is what it is.
Nothing's going to change overnight, but removing that freeway very much could transform that neighborhood over a decade or two.
The only thing it's going to do is waste more taxpayer money on absolutely stupid, unnecessary projects that could be used for 100 other necessary projects that MDOT can't seem to find any funding for.
I will note that the only nice part* of Detroit is right next to 375, so there is some thought here to extend the visitable area and try to make the city core viable again.
*I'm well aware there are many.
Is the condition of 375 deteriorated? If so, then something has to be done either way and a boulevard conversion would makes sense. I can understand if the freeway is in good condition and spending the money would be unnecessary.
No the freeway is not in good condition.
The I-375 removal project also includes fixing the 75 to 75 access (removing the tightest turns). That's a big positive.
Quote from: Terry Shea on September 19, 2022, 12:30:01 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 18, 2022, 06:36:20 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on September 18, 2022, 06:20:08 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on September 18, 2022, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on September 18, 2022, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2022, 12:09:08 PM
That's disappointing, though not unexpected. The proposed downgrade has been in the works since 2013.
Who cares about the demolition of a freeway that hardly anyone uses?
I do find it hillarious that people are raving about a few acres of surplus land in a city where entire blocks are vacant.
It gets people talking and thinking that Detroit is instantly going to become great again overnight.
It's still fine that it's being downgraded though.
There's absolutely no reason to waste money on such stupidity. It is what it is. Detroit is what it is. That neighborhood is what it is.
Nothing's going to change overnight, but removing that freeway very much could transform that neighborhood over a decade or two.
The only thing it's going to do is waste more taxpayer money on absolutely stupid, unnecessary projects that could be used for 100 other necessary projects that MDOT can't seem to find any funding for.
Well, once they do this, MDOT won't need to pay to maintain the freeway.
Let's also remember that at the same time as this, MDOT is widening I-94.
Quote from: GaryV on September 19, 2022, 09:21:25 AM
The I-375 removal project also includes fixing the 75 to 75 access (removing the tightest turns). That's a big positive.
Hell yeah it is. That's a terrible curve there on I-75 where the suggested speed is only 25 mph.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/09/13/us-31-m-22-roundabout-in-manistee-opens-to-traffic-next-week (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/09/13/us-31-m-22-roundabout-in-manistee-opens-to-traffic-next-week)
The new roundabout at US-31 and M-22 north of Manistee opened to traffic yesterday (Monday, Sept. 19).
It will be interesting to what MDOT recommends. Personally, I would love to BRT running down the middle of Gratiot from Downtown to 8 Mile.
QuoteThe Planning and Environmental Linkages (PEL) study for M-3 (Gratiot Avenue) from Randolph Street to M-102 (8 Mile Road) in Detroit will identify and evaluate safety, multimodal mobility, transit needs, and proposed improvements. The PEL study will help to refine the recommendations of existing plans and studies to create one unified vision for the corridor.
The Gratiot Avenue PEL study will also evaluate:
Safety issues for nonmotorized users
Abundance of travel lanes
Lack of nonmotorized facilities
High transit use
Sidewalk lighting and maintenance
A proposed road diet with dedicated center transit lanes and medians
The PEL study will consider environmental, community, and economic goals early in the transportation planning process. The information analysis and services or recommendations developed during the PEL study will inform the environmental review process.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/planning-and-environmental-linkages-studies/m-3-in-detroit
What is with MDOT and the font in the 58?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221011/55c98a09c8bbb6a041ee7c660fe3b044.jpg)
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 10, 2022, 11:45:13 PM
What is with MDOT and the font in the 58?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221011/55c98a09c8bbb6a041ee7c660fe3b044.jpg)
I'm willing to bet that sign was installed by the local County Road Commission. CRCs are notorious for using bad fonts on signs (at least, they are around my part of Michigan).
We are one season into the rebuilds of I-275 (between M-14 and I-94) and I-96 (between I-275 and Milford). Now the next big Metro area rebuilding project begins this weekend. On Saturday 10/13, westbound I-696 will be down to one open lane between Evergreen Road and M-10, and two open lanes between M-10 and I-96/I-275. Beginning Sunday and continuing through late December, two lanes will be open through that entire westbound stretch. This is for prep work for the 2023-2024 reconstruction of I-696. The work includes widening the right shoulder, pavement patching, and median crossovers.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/10/12/i-696-project-begins-with-westbound-i-696-lane-closures-from-evergreen-road-to-i-275-in-oakland-co
Eastbound will be rebuilt in 2023; westbound will be rebuilt in 2024. Both directions of traffic will be maintained on the other carriageway with two lanes each direction. This will be interesting; westbound already has big backups most of the day because of construction on I-96.
Quote from: jzn110 on October 11, 2022, 08:10:52 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 10, 2022, 11:45:13 PM
What is with MDOT and the font in the 58?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221011/55c98a09c8bbb6a041ee7c660fe3b044.jpg)
I'm willing to bet that sign was installed by the local County Road Commission. CRCs are notorious for using bad fonts on signs (at least, they are around my part of Michigan).
It's not the only one and the one on the other side of the street is the normal MDOT one.
Woodward Avenue will be undergoing a "road diet" between 8 Mile and Interstate 696. Woodward will be reduced from 8 lanes to 6 and will feature protected bike lanes.
QuoteOn Oct. 17, construction on Woodward Avenue between Eight Mile and Interstate 696 will begin. Woodward Moves, a joint venture between Ferndale, Pleasant Ridge and the Michigan Department of Transportation, will reduce one lane in each direction, add a nine-foot parking-protected bike lane, where the parking lane puts a barrier between cars and bicyclists, a three-foot buffer, and about 900 delineators to ensure cars don't cross into the bike lane, Ferndale Downtown Development Authority's Executive Director Lena Stevens told Crain's.
The project also includes repaving up to the northern Ferndale boundary. Pleasant Ridge's portion of the roadway has already been repaved.
The city has received some pushback from residents and businesses who express concern about the year-long construction project obstructing roadways, and the reduction of car lanes increasing traffic density in an already busy area. Lawn signs protesting the "road diet" have been a visible presence in local neighborhoods.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/transportation/woodward-avenue-road-diet-construction-will-add-bike-lanes
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 13, 2022, 04:51:54 PM
We are one season into the rebuilds of I-275 (between M-14 and I-94) and I-96 (between I-275 and Milford). Now the next big Metro area rebuilding project begins this weekend. On Saturday 10/13, westbound I-696 will be down to one open lane between Evergreen Road and M-10, and two open lanes between M-10 and I-96/I-275. Beginning Sunday and continuing through late December, two lanes will be open through that entire westbound stretch. This is for prep work for the 2023-2024 reconstruction of I-696. The work includes widening the right shoulder, pavement patching, and median crossovers.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/10/12/i-696-project-begins-with-westbound-i-696-lane-closures-from-evergreen-road-to-i-275-in-oakland-co
Eastbound will be rebuilt in 2023; westbound will be rebuilt in 2024. Both directions of traffic will be maintained on the other carriageway with two lanes each direction. This will be interesting; westbound already has big backups most of the day because of construction on I-96.
Huh? 696 was down to one lane each way within my traveling lifetime. Why does it need it again?
Quote from: afguy on October 13, 2022, 06:04:01 PM
Woodward Avenue will be undergoing a "road diet" between 8 Mile and Interstate 696. Woodward will be reduced from 8 lanes to 6 and will feature protected bike lanes.
QuoteOn Oct. 17, construction on Woodward Avenue between Eight Mile and Interstate 696 will begin. Woodward Moves, a joint venture between Ferndale, Pleasant Ridge and the Michigan Department of Transportation, will reduce one lane in each direction, add a nine-foot parking-protected bike lane, where the parking lane puts a barrier between cars and bicyclists, a three-foot buffer, and about 900 delineators to ensure cars don't cross into the bike lane, Ferndale Downtown Development Authority's Executive Director Lena Stevens told Crain's.
The project also includes repaving up to the northern Ferndale boundary. Pleasant Ridge's portion of the roadway has already been repaved.
The city has received some pushback from residents and businesses who express concern about the year-long construction project obstructing roadways, and the reduction of car lanes increasing traffic density in an already busy area. Lawn signs protesting the "road diet" have been a visible presence in local neighborhoods.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/transportation/woodward-avenue-road-diet-construction-will-add-bike-lanes
I've never been to this area, but this seems like a no-brainer on the surface. I appreciate it when bike/pedestrian infrastructure is added to under-capacity roads.
I have to laugh, though, this has got to be one of the only cases in history where there's a six-lane road left
after a road diet takes place.
Woodward Ave is a pretty wide boulevard, with room for median turnarounds and 8 lanes on top of street parking from McNichols Rd (Six Mile) north . When it was built out, the area between Detroit and Pontiac was undeveloped, and it was the main highway between the two cities.
I doubt losing 2 lanes is going to be that big of a problem in Ferndale, but I don't daily commute on Woodward.
Quote from: pianocello on October 13, 2022, 08:50:19 PM
Quote from: afguy on October 13, 2022, 06:04:01 PM
Woodward Avenue will be undergoing a "road diet" between 8 Mile and Interstate 696. Woodward will be reduced from 8 lanes to 6 and will feature protected bike lanes.
QuoteOn Oct. 17, construction on Woodward Avenue between Eight Mile and Interstate 696 will begin. Woodward Moves, a joint venture between Ferndale, Pleasant Ridge and the Michigan Department of Transportation, will reduce one lane in each direction, add a nine-foot parking-protected bike lane, where the parking lane puts a barrier between cars and bicyclists, a three-foot buffer, and about 900 delineators to ensure cars don't cross into the bike lane, Ferndale Downtown Development Authority's Executive Director Lena Stevens told Crain's.
The project also includes repaving up to the northern Ferndale boundary. Pleasant Ridge's portion of the roadway has already been repaved.
The city has received some pushback from residents and businesses who express concern about the year-long construction project obstructing roadways, and the reduction of car lanes increasing traffic density in an already busy area. Lawn signs protesting the "road diet" have been a visible presence in local neighborhoods.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/transportation/woodward-avenue-road-diet-construction-will-add-bike-lanes
I've never been to this area, but this seems like a no-brainer on the surface. I appreciate it when bike/pedestrian infrastructure is added to under-capacity roads.
I have to laugh, though, this has got to be one of the only cases in history where there's a six-lane road left after a road diet takes place.
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 14, 2022, 01:21:59 PM
Woodward Ave is a pretty wide boulevard, with room for median turnarounds and 8 lanes on top of street parking from McNichols Rd (Six Mile) north . When it was built out, the area between Detroit and Pontiac was undeveloped, and it was the main highway between the two cities.
I doubt losing 2 lanes is going to be that big of a problem in Ferndale, but I don't daily commute on Woodward.
When I first saw "road diet" I was also not expecting a road that would end up being six lanes
after the diet. :-D :-D
But that's definitely a lot of lanes for a surface street, which is no stranger to Metro Detroit from what I've seen on Google Maps.
But it seems like the section of (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4358888,-83.117962,3a,60.6y,157.27h,89.62t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOwovY7ovcYXB6grlXJ8UkQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOwovY7ovcYXB6grlXJ8UkQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D335.38504%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) Woodward Avenue (M-1)
south of Eight Mile Road (M-102) is even
more deserving of a road diet, as it is a staggering 10 lanes.
Woodward is a very busy street that is an alternate route for I-75 in the area as well. It's indeed worthy of the amount of lanes it has as much as 65,000 VPD using it.
I don't have photographic evidence, but last week I was on northbound US-24 Telegraph Rd in a major construction zone between I-94 and US-12 Michigan Ave in the Taylor/Dearborn area. This project is being worked by the MDOT Taylor TSC, according to the MDOTjboss site. Well, Taylor screwed up. They have already posted new reassurance markers along the route but unfortunately have posted M-24 (state diamond) shields instead of the correct US-24 shields.
Hard to believe that Taylor wouldn't have the correct shields stocked; despite the obvious numerical confusion with US-24, M-24 doesn't run anywhere near Taylor. Why would they have shields for a highway that doesn't run through their jurisdiction?
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 24, 2022, 08:06:03 AM
Woodward is a very busy street that is an alternate route for I-75 in the area as well. It's indeed worthy of the amount of lanes it has as much as 65,000 VPD using it.
Stuff like this makes me think of Kramer restriping....
I passed the Parrish Road bridge in Bay County twice last night and it looks like they are completing it. This was the bridge between MM 171 and 172 that sat half complete for the entire summer.
This is a GSV from August. They have more done now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7100282,-84.0120697,3a,49.4y,342.44h,87.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ss8rqN8XFK4Sxot9Bs3CMTQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Ds8rqN8XFK4Sxot9Bs3CMTQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D132.71487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 26, 2022, 07:19:43 AM
I passed the Parrish Road bridge in Bay County twice last night and it looks like they are completing it. This was the bridge between MM 171 and 172 that sat half complete for the entire summer.
This is a GSV from August. They have more done now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7100282,-84.0120697,3a,49.4y,342.44h,87.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ss8rqN8XFK4Sxot9Bs3CMTQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Ds8rqN8XFK4Sxot9Bs3CMTQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D132.71487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Yeah, I drove through there yesterday and could finally see some work being done. But it actually sat there looking like just prior to that pic being taken (pretty much only the beam on the left being added) for about a year or more.
Quote from: vegas1962 on October 25, 2022, 02:41:20 PM
I don't have photographic evidence, but last week I was on northbound US-24 Telegraph Rd in a major construction zone between I-94 and US-12 Michigan Ave in the Taylor/Dearborn area. This project is being worked by the MDOT Taylor TSC, according to the MDOTjboss site. Well, Taylor screwed up. They have already posted new reassurance markers along the route but unfortunately have posted M-24 (state diamond) shields instead of the correct US-24 shields.
Hard to believe that Taylor wouldn't have the correct shields stocked; despite the obvious numerical confusion with US-24, M-24 doesn't run anywhere near Taylor. Why would they have shields for a highway that doesn't run through their jurisdiction?
Not surprising at all considering how much MDOT has been screwing up signage and detour routing in other areas. MDOT got creative with the confusion this summer in the Lansing area by signing detours that either don't exist (in whole or in part), make no sense or involve routes and/or exit numbers that don't exist. The northernmost I-69/I-96 interchange has been closed down for most of the year. First, the ramp to EB I-69, exit 89, was closed off. Traffic was detoured to the next exit, Grand River Ave (exit 90), continued east on Grand River and then north on Airport Road back to I-69. No problem there, other than some pretty good backups attempting to turn left from Grand River Ave onto Airport Road, as there is no left turn signal to facilitate all the extra traffic going that way. But at about this time the electronic message board on SB US-127 north of the I-69 interchange announced that I-69 was closed at exit 89... except there is no exit 89 on I-69! Exit 89 is the exit I mentioned above, from EB I-96 to EB I-69. They got the wrong freeway and I'm not certain what the relevance of such signage on SB-127 would be: how is a driver going to get from SB-127 to EB I-96 west of the interchange with I-69? And the situation would get totally mucked up if you decided to stay on SB-127 to WB-96 to it's multiplex with NB I-69 to the point where EB I-69 exists (essentially doing a near full clockwise circle around town), since the exit number for EB I-69 from WB I-96 is exit 91 and not exit 89.
Oh, but it doesn't end there. When they re-opened the EB ramps from I-96 to EB I-69, they closed down the WB ramps from I-69 to WB I-96. Now I realize that a dyslexic sex maniac is going to be all over his/her self at this point, but please bear with me. The posted detour to continue on WB I-69 to WB I-96 was Airport Road south to Grand River Ave west back to the I/96/I-69 interchange, which once again makes sense. But one day, I was backed up in traffic on SB US-127 and decided to weave my way along backroads. I eventually got to Airport Rd about a half mile north of the I-69 interchange. When I got to the interchange, there was a sign indicating that the ramp from Airport Rd to WB I-69 was closed. The posted detour sent traffic down the EB I-69 ramp. I found this quite odd, since the detour for WB I-69 to WB I-96 along Airport Road and Grand River Ave gets you to essentially the exact same spot where the 2 freeways split/merge. But the story doesn't end there!
Curious as to where that posted detour went after heading down the the EB I-69 ramp off from Airport Rd, I did my due diligence and sought out signage on EB I-69 on my next several trips through the area. There was none! Finally about 3 weeks later, detour signs were posted to exit EB I-69 at exit 87, Old 27, cross the bridge and exit again onto WB I-69, essentially doing a full circle. The problem is, once again, if you want to exit WB I-69 onto WB I-96 to return to Grand Rapids, you can't do it because the exit is closed!🤣 And, once again, for at least 3 weeks, there was no detour signage once entering EB I-69. I wonder how many people ended up in Flint, Port Huron or Canada before they figured it out?🤣 But the story doesn't end here.
One night heading home from Mt. Pleasant heading south on US-127, I came across that same electronic message board mentioned earlier. I had already decided I was going to stick to the freeways and avoid the posted 2-lane road detours. I knew I-496 had been closed through town, but I wasn't sure if it was still closed. Anyway, the electronic message board said "I-96 closed at exit 7A." I knew there was no exit 7A on I-96, but for some reason, I thought they had the right freeway but the wrong exit number. So I hopped onto I-496 thinking that it was finally open, but as soon as I did so, I realized that exit 7A was part of the I-496 numbering scheme, and had to exit the freeway and detour some more!
Quote from: vegas1962 on October 25, 2022, 02:41:20 PM
I don't have photographic evidence, but last week I was on northbound US-24 Telegraph Rd in a major construction zone between I-94 and US-12 Michigan Ave in the Taylor/Dearborn area. This project is being worked by the MDOT Taylor TSC, according to the MDOTjboss site. Well, Taylor screwed up. They have already posted new reassurance markers along the route but unfortunately have posted M-24 (state diamond) shields instead of the correct US-24 shields.
Hard to believe that Taylor wouldn't have the correct shields stocked; despite the obvious numerical confusion with US-24, M-24 doesn't run anywhere near Taylor. Why would they have shields for a highway that doesn't run through their jurisdiction?
Taylor TSC might be overseeing the project but I doubt they are actually doing the work, especially if it's "major" as you described and not simply patching potholes or clearing a stormwater drain. My guess is it's a contractor screw-up.
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 26, 2022, 11:42:16 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 26, 2022, 07:19:43 AM
I passed the Parrish Road bridge in Bay County twice last night and it looks like they are completing it. This was the bridge between MM 171 and 172 that sat half complete for the entire summer.
This is a GSV from August. They have more done now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7100282,-84.0120697,3a,49.4y,342.44h,87.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ss8rqN8XFK4Sxot9Bs3CMTQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Ds8rqN8XFK4Sxot9Bs3CMTQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D132.71487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Yeah, I drove through there yesterday and could finally see some work being done. But it actually sat there looking like just prior to that pic being taken (pretty much only the beam on the left being added) for about a year or more.
They've been slowly redoing that stretch of I-75. I really can't understand why they wouldn't consider adding an extra lane in each direction between MM 164 and 188.
Remember how long the US-10 shields remained up in Detroit for the Lodge Freeway? I think it was only about 15 or so years ago since the last one I can remember was removed and replaced with a M-10 shield. I saw a M-14 sign on Plymouth Road once too and I think that is actually still an unsigned state highway.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2022, 03:42:57 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 26, 2022, 11:42:16 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 26, 2022, 07:19:43 AM
I passed the Parrish Road bridge in Bay County twice last night and it looks like they are completing it. This was the bridge between MM 171 and 172 that sat half complete for the entire summer.
This is a GSV from August. They have more done now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7100282,-84.0120697,3a,49.4y,342.44h,87.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ss8rqN8XFK4Sxot9Bs3CMTQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Ds8rqN8XFK4Sxot9Bs3CMTQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D132.71487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Yeah, I drove through there yesterday and could finally see some work being done. But it actually sat there looking like just prior to that pic being taken (pretty much only the beam on the left being added) for about a year or more.
They've been slowly redoing that stretch of I-75. I really can't understand why they wouldn't consider adding an extra lane in each direction between MM 164 and 188.
It might be on the MDOT 250-year plan.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2022, 03:49:48 PM
Remember how long the US-10 shields remained up in Detroit for the Lodge Freeway? I think it was only about 15 or so years ago since the last one I can remember was removed and replaced with a M-10 shield. I saw a M-14 sign on Plymouth Road once too and I think that is actually still an unsigned state highway.
Yes, Ann Arbor Road / Plymouth Road from the Washtenaw County line to the city limits of Detroit just east of Telegraph Road (US-24).
http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-014.html
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
(https://i.imgur.com/V3na6ZJ.jpg)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
(https://i.imgur.com/V3na6ZJ.jpg)
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
(https://i.imgur.com/V3na6ZJ.jpg)
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Oh yeah, they've been dead for quite awhile.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 31, 2022, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
(https://i.imgur.com/V3na6ZJ.jpg)
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Oh yeah, they've been dead for quite awhile.
It was in their 5-year plan not that long ago.
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 03:36:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 31, 2022, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Oh yeah, they've been dead for quite awhile.
It was in their 5-year plan not that long ago.
I wouldn't call a US-127 freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca dead. More like dormant, as in "we have bigger fish to fry".
At the point MDOT has to do a ground-up rebuild of the roadbed, then they'll expend the $$$ to convert it to freeway. But they've addressed the chief safety concerns over the past 30 years - removing the stoplight at M-57, limiting cross-traffic, and purchasing and removing driveway and side-road access.
As much as having this gap in the freeway north irks me, it's at least a 4-lane divided highway. US-127 south of M-50 in Jackson carries comparable traffic on a (nominally) 2-lane roadway with passing lanes. The chances of that stretch becoming freeway are a lot more dead than the Ithaca to St. Johns stretch.
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 31, 2022, 08:22:17 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 03:36:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 31, 2022, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Oh yeah, they've been dead for quite awhile.
It was in their 5-year plan not that long ago.
I wouldn't call a US-127 freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca dead. More like dormant, as in "we have bigger fish to fry".
At the point MDOT has to do a ground-up rebuild of the roadbed, then they'll expend the $$$ to convert it to freeway. But they've addressed the chief safety concerns over the past 30 years - removing the stoplight at M-57, limiting cross-traffic, and purchasing and removing driveway and side-road access.
As much as having this gap in the freeway north irks me, it's at least a 4-lane divided highway. US-127 south of M-50 in Jackson carries comparable traffic on a (nominally) 2-lane roadway with passing lanes. The chances of that stretch becoming freeway are a lot more dead than the Ithaca to St. Johns stretch.
I believe the reason MDOT isn't converting this stretch to a freeway, along with US-31 north of Ludington and US-131 north of Manton, is because the average daily traffic counts don't justify it. But anyone who's driven these stretches of highway on a summer weekend... especially a holiday weekend, knows that average traffic counts are virtually meaningless on these roads. They can get exponentially more traffic on weekends and holiday weekends. At least US-127 is 4-lane divided, but I don't see that the changes they're making are going to improve anything all that much, other than cosmetically. I think they're just doing it so they can say they did something.
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 01, 2022, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 31, 2022, 08:22:17 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 03:36:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 31, 2022, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Oh yeah, they've been dead for quite awhile.
It was in their 5-year plan not that long ago.
I wouldn't call a US-127 freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca dead. More like dormant, as in "we have bigger fish to fry".
At the point MDOT has to do a ground-up rebuild of the roadbed, then they'll expend the $$$ to convert it to freeway. But they've addressed the chief safety concerns over the past 30 years - removing the stoplight at M-57, limiting cross-traffic, and purchasing and removing driveway and side-road access.
As much as having this gap in the freeway north irks me, it's at least a 4-lane divided highway. US-127 south of M-50 in Jackson carries comparable traffic on a (nominally) 2-lane roadway with passing lanes. The chances of that stretch becoming freeway are a lot more dead than the Ithaca to St. Johns stretch.
I believe the reason MDOT isn't converting this stretch to a freeway, along with US-31 north of Ludington and US-131 north of Manton, is because the average daily traffic counts don't justify it. But anyone who's driven these stretches of highway on a summer weekend... especially a holiday weekend, knows that average traffic counts are virtually meaningless on these roads. They can get exponentially more traffic on weekends and holiday weekends. At least US-127 is 4-lane divided, but I don't see that the changes they're making are going to improve anything all that much, other than cosmetically. I think they're just doing it so they can say they did something.
Having to constantly pave, salt, and plow highway lanes that are only going to be used a few weekends a year is obviously quite expensive.
Quote from: kernals12 on November 01, 2022, 11:49:03 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 01, 2022, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 31, 2022, 08:22:17 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 03:36:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 31, 2022, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Oh yeah, they've been dead for quite awhile.
It was in their 5-year plan not that long ago.
I wouldn't call a US-127 freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca dead. More like dormant, as in "we have bigger fish to fry".
At the point MDOT has to do a ground-up rebuild of the roadbed, then they'll expend the $$$ to convert it to freeway. But they've addressed the chief safety concerns over the past 30 years - removing the stoplight at M-57, limiting cross-traffic, and purchasing and removing driveway and side-road access.
As much as having this gap in the freeway north irks me, it's at least a 4-lane divided highway. US-127 south of M-50 in Jackson carries comparable traffic on a (nominally) 2-lane roadway with passing lanes. The chances of that stretch becoming freeway are a lot more dead than the Ithaca to St. Johns stretch.
I believe the reason MDOT isn't converting this stretch to a freeway, along with US-31 north of Ludington and US-131 north of Manton, is because the average daily traffic counts don't justify it. But anyone who's driven these stretches of highway on a summer weekend... especially a holiday weekend, knows that average traffic counts are virtually meaningless on these roads. They can get exponentially more traffic on weekends and holiday weekends. At least US-127 is 4-lane divided, but I don't see that the changes they're making are going to improve anything all that much, other than cosmetically. I think they're just doing it so they can say they did something.
Having to constantly pave, salt, and plow highway lanes that are only going to be used a few weekends a year is obviously quite expensive.
It is. But weekend traffic is what drove neighboring Wisconsin to four lane US 41 (and much of US 141) north of Green Bay, US 45 NW of Oshkosh, US 51 (now I-39), US 53 north of Chippewa Falls, and WI 57 to Sturgeon Bay. None of these highways is especially busy during the week. But every summer weekend, they would be dangerous highways with cars mixing with all sorts of slower moving vehicles, often towing campers or boats. Wisconsin's leaders realized expressways or better to the North Woods would be very beneficial for the tourism industry, both for monetary and safety reasons. The improvements have more than paid for themselves in lower accident rates and saved lives.
It's more than just a few weekends a year. It's pretty much every summer weekend and hunting season as well
This stretch of US-127 also gets fairly heavy commuter traffic coming into and going out of Lansing during the weekdays. There are a surprising number of folks commuting daily to Lansing from places like Mount Pleasant, Clare, Harrison, and even Houghton Lake. This only works as long as the highway is free flowing, weather is cooperative, and snowplowing is reliable when the weather isn't cooperative.
Average daily traffic counts are well into the range to justify a freeway there, as is the rest of US-127 to at least Clare. But it was 4-laned in the early 1950s, before MDOT gave much thought to the "limited access" idea - or that 70 years later the highway is largely in the same configuration. Now MDOT has to acquire property to get a freeway done.
That stretch of US-127 gets regular safety upgrades because it's a relatively hazardous stretch (compared to the freeway sections north and south of there), but the safety measures have been effective enough that MDOT's been able to push back freeway conversion several decades. It's allowed them to focus limited resources on other places that need it more (I-94 through Kalamazoo and Jackson, for instance).
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 01, 2022, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 31, 2022, 08:22:17 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 03:36:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 31, 2022, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Oh yeah, they've been dead for quite awhile.
It was in their 5-year plan not that long ago.
I wouldn't call a US-127 freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca dead. More like dormant, as in "we have bigger fish to fry".
At the point MDOT has to do a ground-up rebuild of the roadbed, then they'll expend the $$$ to convert it to freeway. But they've addressed the chief safety concerns over the past 30 years - removing the stoplight at M-57, limiting cross-traffic, and purchasing and removing driveway and side-road access.
As much as having this gap in the freeway north irks me, it's at least a 4-lane divided highway. US-127 south of M-50 in Jackson carries comparable traffic on a (nominally) 2-lane roadway with passing lanes. The chances of that stretch becoming freeway are a lot more dead than the Ithaca to St. Johns stretch.
I believe the reason MDOT isn't converting this stretch to a freeway, along with US-31 north of Ludington and US-131 north of Manton, is because the average daily traffic counts don't justify it. But anyone who's driven these stretches of highway on a summer weekend... especially a holiday weekend, knows that average traffic counts are virtually meaningless on these roads. They can get exponentially more traffic on weekends and holiday weekends. At least US-127 is 4-lane divided, but I don't see that the changes they're making are going to improve anything all that much, other than cosmetically. I think they're just doing it so they can say they did something.
To say nothing about removing the at-grade rail crossing just north of the M-57 interchange. It surprised me that this wasn't rectified when that interchange was built.
But there's a flaw in your comparison of US-127 with US-31 north of Ludington and US-131 north of Manton: the proposed 31 and 131 projects are
extensions from the current northern ends. The 127 project would be to
fill in a gap between two freeway segments. Big difference.
It's my understanding that the 31 and 131 northern extensions have not happened largely due to (low) traffic counts that don't justify the build, but filling in the 127 gap is a question of whether to improve the current highway (including the Maple River crossing) or acquire the land necessary to build on a completely new alignment (likely east of the current highway), but that would come at a prohibitive cost that MDOT can't justify. Keeping the status quo (existing highway with turnarounds to eliminate cross traffic and a 65-mph speed limit) is probably the best option for the near future.
Quote from: vegas1962 on November 03, 2022, 02:02:36 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 01, 2022, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 31, 2022, 08:22:17 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 03:36:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 31, 2022, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 31, 2022, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
MDOT will be letting a contract for work on US-127 between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca -- repaving, creek crossings, and more elimination of direct cross road intersections.
I take it that plans to convert US-127 to a freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca are dead.
Oh yeah, they've been dead for quite awhile.
It was in their 5-year plan not that long ago.
I wouldn't call a US-127 freeway between St. Johns and Ithaca dead. More like dormant, as in "we have bigger fish to fry".
At the point MDOT has to do a ground-up rebuild of the roadbed, then they'll expend the $$$ to convert it to freeway. But they've addressed the chief safety concerns over the past 30 years - removing the stoplight at M-57, limiting cross-traffic, and purchasing and removing driveway and side-road access.
As much as having this gap in the freeway north irks me, it's at least a 4-lane divided highway. US-127 south of M-50 in Jackson carries comparable traffic on a (nominally) 2-lane roadway with passing lanes. The chances of that stretch becoming freeway are a lot more dead than the Ithaca to St. Johns stretch.
I believe the reason MDOT isn't converting this stretch to a freeway, along with US-31 north of Ludington and US-131 north of Manton, is because the average daily traffic counts don't justify it. But anyone who's driven these stretches of highway on a summer weekend... especially a holiday weekend, knows that average traffic counts are virtually meaningless on these roads. They can get exponentially more traffic on weekends and holiday weekends. At least US-127 is 4-lane divided, but I don't see that the changes they're making are going to improve anything all that much, other than cosmetically. I think they're just doing it so they can say they did something.
To say nothing about removing the at-grade rail crossing just north of the M-57 interchange. It surprised me that this wasn't rectified when that interchange was built.
But there's a flaw in your comparison of US-127 with US-31 north of Ludington and US-131 north of Manton: the proposed 31 and 131 projects are extensions from the current northern ends. The 127 project would be to fill in a gap between two freeway segments. Big difference.
It's my understanding that the 31 and 131 northern extensions have not happened largely due to (low) traffic counts that don't justify the build, but filling in the 127 gap is a question of whether to improve the current highway (including the Maple River crossing) or acquire the land necessary to build on a completely new alignment (likely east of the current highway), but that would come at a prohibitive cost that MDOT can't justify. Keeping the status quo (existing highway with turnarounds to eliminate cross traffic and a 65-mph speed limit) is probably the best option for the near future.
As far as that RR crossing goes, I've driven that stretch 2-3 times a week both ways for the past dozen years or so, and I've never had to stop for a train. In fact, I thought the tracks had been decommissioned until I actually did see a train well down the tracks one night. At any rate, if they're not going to turn it into a freeway, the RR tracks are about the least of their worries.
As for US-31 and US-131 freeways not being extended due to low traffic counts, once again, those are average daily counts and don't reflect the enormous traffic these routes receive on weekends/holidays. In fact, I'm certain there is enough weekend traffic on these routes to justify adding at least 1 lane in each direction on the freeway portions. And certainly, lanes should be added to at least a good portion of the 2-lane sections. It can take better than an hour just to drive through the Traverse City area, even during the week.
And I could be wrong, but I believe that much of the Right of Way along US-127 has already been purchased. I also believe the study was already completed, including the environmental assessment. It was on the MDOT website a few years ago, but now I can't find it anywhere. At any rate, a significant amount of money has already been spent on this project, so why abandon it?
Trolling MDOT's Right-of-Way documents in Clinton County, it's clear MDOT has been acquiring ROW on the west side of the existing US-127 north of St. Johns. It comes in fits and spurts, but there have been consistent parcel purchases since 1998 in pursuit of a US-127 freeway conversion. MDOT has more acquisitions to make before dirt can start flying, but it's hardly the moves one would expect of a "dead" project.
Clinton Co:
https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/BITMIX/getMapDocument.htm?docGuid=b5ba1148-4289-4374-a06d-196d8e9d5461&fileName=Clinton.pdf&rowMapProjNum=1315934&rowMapLegendFileName=ROW+Map+Legend.pdf&realEstatePhoneNumber=517-599-6740 (https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/BITMIX/getMapDocument.htm?docGuid=b5ba1148-4289-4374-a06d-196d8e9d5461&fileName=Clinton.pdf&rowMapProjNum=1315934&rowMapLegendFileName=ROW+Map+Legend.pdf&realEstatePhoneNumber=517-599-6740)
Gratiot Co:
https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/BITMIX/getMapDocument.htm?docGuid=02f7fdfb-0eac-41af-aa78-cfcaffbd1735&fileName=Gratiot.pdf&rowMapProjNum=1315934&rowMapLegendFileName=ROW+Map+Legend.pdf&realEstatePhoneNumber=517-599-6740 (https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/BITMIX/getMapDocument.htm?docGuid=02f7fdfb-0eac-41af-aa78-cfcaffbd1735&fileName=Gratiot.pdf&rowMapProjNum=1315934&rowMapLegendFileName=ROW+Map+Legend.pdf&realEstatePhoneNumber=517-599-6740)
I also noticed that the section of M-99 at Holt Rd. near Dimondale has survey lines drawn out leading due north of the Holt Rd intersection, following the section line towards I-96. I doubt there were serious plans for a freeway-to-freeway interchange for M-99 roughly where Williams Rd meets I-96, but it's tempting to speculate what MDOT planners were aiming for.
https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/BITMIX/getMapDocument.htm?docGuid=bf417942-75fe-422b-b880-30f2590dbba4&fileName=sheet057.pdf&rowMapProjNum=1315934&rowMapLegendFileName=ROW+Map+Legend.pdf&realEstatePhoneNumber=517-599-6740 (https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/BITMIX/getMapDocument.htm?docGuid=bf417942-75fe-422b-b880-30f2590dbba4&fileName=sheet057.pdf&rowMapProjNum=1315934&rowMapLegendFileName=ROW+Map+Legend.pdf&realEstatePhoneNumber=517-599-6740)
I wonder what this new approach will look like?
Whitmer: Entirely new approach needed to 'fix the damn roads'QuoteMichigan's road funding primarily comes from fuel taxes and vehicle registration fees, plus $600 million a year from the state's general fund.
In 2020, Whitmer went around the Legislature to get the State Transportation Commission to OK $3.5-billion in bonds to help her step up road repairs. She's also used general funds and Michigan's share of President Joe Biden's $1.2-trillion infrastructure bill to ramp up projects on Michigan roads long known for their poor quality.
But now, a whole new approach is needed, she said.
"We are undergoing a historic transformation from ICE (internal combustion engines) to EVs (electric vehicles) and being able to build out and maintain infrastructure that can support this technology is something that every state in the country is going to grapple with," Whitmer said.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2022/11/17/whitmer-entirely-new-approach-needed-to-fix-the-damn-roads/69653322007/
Quote from: afguy on November 17, 2022, 07:14:50 PM
I wonder what this new approach will look like?
Whitmer: Entirely new approach needed to 'fix the damn roads'
QuoteMichigan's road funding primarily comes from fuel taxes and vehicle registration fees, plus $600 million a year from the state's general fund.
In 2020, Whitmer went around the Legislature to get the State Transportation Commission to OK $3.5-billion in bonds to help her step up road repairs. She's also used general funds and Michigan's share of President Joe Biden's $1.2-trillion infrastructure bill to ramp up projects on Michigan roads long known for their poor quality.
But now, a whole new approach is needed, she said.
"We are undergoing a historic transformation from ICE (internal combustion engines) to EVs (electric vehicles) and being able to build out and maintain infrastructure that can support this technology is something that every state in the country is going to grapple with," Whitmer said.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2022/11/17/whitmer-entirely-new-approach-needed-to-fix-the-damn-roads/69653322007/
Great question. Regardless of whether we're driving cars with ICEs or batteries, the roads should be smooth.
Indiana and Ohio are looking like better places to live.
Update on "Phase 2" of the flex lane project on U.S. 23 that will go from 9 Mile to I-96. I honestly wish MDOT would just do a proper widening and add a full third lane.
Officials set to preview 3-year, $146-million expansion of U.S. 23 Flex Route to I-96QuoteOfficials plan to extend the Flex Route north from its current end point at M-36 (9 Mile Road) to the I-96 interchange just outside Brighton.
Doing so won't be a quick task, with road work planned for the next three construction seasons, 2023 through 2025, according to MDOT. The project is slated to proceed north to south with next year's work focusing on the stretch of highway between Spencer Road to a point north of the Huron River.
Officials plan to add an auxiliary lane along southbound U.S. 23 between the eastbound I-96 on-ramp and the Lee Road off-ramp, allowing vehicles entering U.S. 23 and exiting to Lee Road to stay in the same lane while providing additional time for other cars to get in the right lane.
MDOT also plans to complete repair work on the Grand River Avenue bridges and Lee Road bridge, and U.S. 23 will be lowered under Lee Road to improve vertical clearance. The ramps at the exit will also be repaved.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2022/11/officials-set-to-preview-3-year-146-million-expansion-of-us-23-flex-route-to-i-96.html
Quote from: afguy on November 22, 2022, 09:11:51 PM
Update on "Phase 2" of the flex lane project on U.S. 23 that will go from 9 Mile to I-96. I honestly wish MDOT would just do a proper widening and add a full third lane.
Officials set to preview 3-year, $146-million expansion of U.S. 23 Flex Route to I-96
QuoteOfficials plan to extend the Flex Route north from its current end point at M-36 (9 Mile Road) to the I-96 interchange just outside Brighton.
Doing so won't be a quick task, with road work planned for the next three construction seasons, 2023 through 2025, according to MDOT. The project is slated to proceed north to south with next year's work focusing on the stretch of highway between Spencer Road to a point north of the Huron River.
Officials plan to add an auxiliary lane along southbound U.S. 23 between the eastbound I-96 on-ramp and the Lee Road off-ramp, allowing vehicles entering U.S. 23 and exiting to Lee Road to stay in the same lane while providing additional time for other cars to get in the right lane.
MDOT also plans to complete repair work on the Grand River Avenue bridges and Lee Road bridge, and U.S. 23 will be lowered under Lee Road to improve vertical clearance. The ramps at the exit will also be repaved.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2022/11/officials-set-to-preview-3-year-146-million-expansion-of-us-23-flex-route-to-i-96.html
Which will do little to help. That area of US-23 needs to be widened and the lanes need to be open 24 hours a day not just during peak hours. US-23 is underbuilt between Flint and Toledo for the massive volumes of traffic that use it.
That's really disappointing. Flex lanes should only be used where space is genuinely unavailable or significantly difficult to get ahold of, like the Madison Beltline. US-23 has enough space for proper widening and needs it too. They'll build the flex lane and realize the mistake within a decade.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on November 22, 2022, 10:25:32 PM
That's really disappointing. Flex lanes should only be used where space is genuinely unavailable or significantly difficult to get ahold of, like the Madison Beltline. US-23 has enough space for proper widening and needs it too. They'll build the flex lane and realize the mistake within a decade.
They have it already south of there all the way to the M-14 interchange and it really hasn't done anything to help. I don't understand MDOT's laziness with this highway I really don't. It's a pretty important corridor and with the traffic volumes it should be at least six lanes the entire stretch. I can't count the times I've been on this highway and was unable to pass because of both lanes being occupied and in both directions the closer you get to the I-96 interchange everyone always seems to get in the left lane too early and drive slow. I have numerous times hopped in the right lane and blown around them it really pisses me off how they drive on this highway.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 22, 2022, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on November 22, 2022, 10:25:32 PM
That's really disappointing. Flex lanes should only be used where space is genuinely unavailable or significantly difficult to get ahold of, like the Madison Beltline. US-23 has enough space for proper widening and needs it too. They'll build the flex lane and realize the mistake within a decade.
They have it already south of there all the way to the M-14 interchange and it really hasn't done anything to help. I don't understand MDOT's laziness with this highway I really don't. It's a pretty important corridor and with the traffic volumes it should be at least six lanes the entire stretch. I can't count the times I've been on this highway and was unable to pass because of both lanes being occupied and in both directions the closer you get to the I-96 interchange everyone always seems to get in the left lane too early and drive slow. I have numerous times hopped in the right lane and blown around them it really pisses me off how they drive on this highway.
Yeah. I drove this stretch a few months ago over the summer and I agree with what you're saying. But this all shouldn't be seen as a surprise given the state of I-94 throughout Michigan, a more important corridor.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on November 23, 2022, 02:20:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 22, 2022, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on November 22, 2022, 10:25:32 PM
That's really disappointing. Flex lanes should only be used where space is genuinely unavailable or significantly difficult to get ahold of, like the Madison Beltline. US-23 has enough space for proper widening and needs it too. They'll build the flex lane and realize the mistake within a decade.
They have it already south of there all the way to the M-14 interchange and it really hasn't done anything to help. I don't understand MDOT's laziness with this highway I really don't. It's a pretty important corridor and with the traffic volumes it should be at least six lanes the entire stretch. I can't count the times I've been on this highway and was unable to pass because of both lanes being occupied and in both directions the closer you get to the I-96 interchange everyone always seems to get in the left lane too early and drive slow. I have numerous times hopped in the right lane and blown around them it really pisses me off how they drive on this highway.
Yeah. I drove this stretch a few months ago over the summer and I agree with what you're saying. But this all shouldn't be seen as a surprise given the state of I-94 throughout Michigan, a more important corridor.
Yeah I-94 is a joke too. It seems like just about the entire stretch of I-94 through Michigan should be at least six lanes as well and it's beyond pathetic in Detroit where it's six lanes through the city with traffic volumes well over 150,000 VPD, I think it gets up to about 170,000 VPD around the I-75/Chene Street area.
A recent Michigan State University study linked the bump in posted speeds from 70 to 75 mph on rural freeways with a 5% bump in accidents, based on statistics from 2014-2016 crash data (pre-increase) and 2018-2019 crash data (post-increase).
From the Free Press article (requires subscription): https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/11/28/msu-study-speed-limit-increases-crashes/69673491007/ (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/11/28/msu-study-speed-limit-increases-crashes/69673491007/)
Former Michigan Rep. Bradford Jacobsen sponsored the 2016 bill that led to the 75-mph limit changes. The Oxford Republican left the state House in 2017 because of term limits.
"What they don't do is look at the actual accidents themselves, which is what I think you need to do," he said. "This doesn't take into account accidents caused by alcohol, drugs or excessive speed. It's usually not the speed necessarily, its driver error, distraction, excessive speed."
Many of Michigan's freeways were designed for traveling speeds of up to 80 mph, Jacobsen said. During the gasoline shortages of the 1980s, freeway speeds were reduced 65 or 70 mph to 55 mph "and things never changed back," he said.
The 2016 bills were motivated by motorists "who drive extensive miles in areas that were designed for higher speeds but they were artificially low," Jacobsen said. The bill left it to MDOT and Michigan State Police to determine what roads could safely implement the increases.
That approach seems to have helped the crash statistics, said Nischal Gupta, an MSU graduate researcher and coauthor of the study. By implementing the changes on more rural freeways with wide shoulders and fewer access points, it provided more areas for avoiding crashes.
"That is a primary reason why we are seeing a lower increase in crashes compared to other literature" from other states, he said.
But that also means that if the Legislature looked to expand increased speed zones in the state to other areas, the safest areas for such changes are already utilized.
Study results: https://tsr.international/TSR/article/view/24337 (https://tsr.international/TSR/article/view/24337)
The areas that got bumped from 55 to 65 mph were also touched on. Again, from the Free Press:
At the same time as freeway speeds were increased, the state Legislature in 2016 also hiked speed limits to 65 mph on nearly 950 miles of two-lane highways in northern Michigan and the Upper Peninsula. The MSU researchers, in a separate study using video camera, radar and LIDAR speed guns, found traveling speeds on those highways – the so-called 85th percentile speed, at which 85% of motorists will drive during free-flowing conditions – increased by 5 mph two years after the speed limit changes. The impact on crashes from those two-lane highway speed changes is a topic of ongoing research, Savolainen said.
Personal commentary: It would be nice if MDOT was able to arrive at design standards that would allow the bump to 65 mph in at least the U.P., or north of US-10. With areas like the Keweenaw and Ironwood being 9-10 hours away from the capitol, those 2017 speed limit hikes easily save 1-2 hours of drive time. If they were able to apply those hikes more universally, it would save even more.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 18, 2022, 11:34:45 AM
Indiana and Ohio are looking like better places to live.
As an Indiana resident, I am always jealous when driving on Michigan roads, (while I understand some road conditions may be worse and Indiana) Indiana may be widening and upgrading infrastructure at a faster rate than Michigan (interstates like 65 and 465) However when I drive through Three Rivers on the newly redone 131 with the 50mph speed limit, TIMED LIGHTS, and Michigan lefts it would take twice as long to get through any divided highway in an Indiana city. Every state road in the South Bend area has horrendous lights that need to be timed and could benefit from Michigan lefts to improve efficiency even more. For Indiana 331 between the US 20 bypass and SR 23, which I drive every day and 90% of the time get stopped by every light, or have them change and run through the cycle when no one is even at the intersection or wants to turn left, it will give a left turn arrow to no one, and also only uses protected left turns which makes the lights even longer) Many people have complained to INDOT with a similar story on almost every state road I have driven on in Indiana, but they just put in all this nice infrastructure and don't care about efficiency the way MDOT does. I think MDOT does the best it can with its limited money, and still ends up running more efficiently. Even driving through Kalamazoo all the stop lights were timed on the arterial roads unlike South Bend-Mishawaka or Indy areas. Similar story with speed limits, Indiana has a 65 mph cap on any freeway that isn't an interstate, and 60 mph for four-lane highways (like US 31) that isn't to freeway standards. I was so shocked when I was up north in Michigan on 131 and the speed limit was 75mph on a road similar to US 31 between Veterans Pwky Pierce Rd. (only 65mph)
As part of the ongoing I-275 reconstruction between Eureka Road and the M-14/I-96 interchange, MDOT is starting the process of moving two-way traffic from the NB lanes to the newly-built SB lanes beginning today. There will be short-term ramp closures over the next few days as traffic is flipped, but the biggest headache will be that I-275 will be down to one lane in both directions for "two to three weeks" as MDOT moves the concrete barrier sections over to the new pavement. Then, there will be two lanes in both directions on the new pavement with all ramps open until the SB lanes are reconstructed next year.
Details here in this MDOT press release: https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/3395e16
Quote from: dlovechio on November 28, 2022, 09:55:03 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 18, 2022, 11:34:45 AM
Indiana and Ohio are looking like better places to live.
As an Indiana resident, I am always jealous when driving on Michigan roads, (while I understand some road conditions may be worse and Indiana) Indiana may be widening and upgrading infrastructure at a faster rate than Michigan (interstates like 65 and 465) However when I drive through Three Rivers on the newly redone 131 with the 50mph speed limit, TIMED LIGHTS, and Michigan lefts it would take twice as long to get through any divided highway in an Indiana city. Every state road in the South Bend area has horrendous lights that need to be timed and could benefit from Michigan lefts to improve efficiency even more. For Indiana 331 between the US 20 bypass and SR 23, which I drive every day and 90% of the time get stopped by every light, or have them change and run through the cycle when no one is even at the intersection or wants to turn left, it will give a left turn arrow to no one, and also only uses protected left turns which makes the lights even longer) Many people have complained to INDOT with a similar story on almost every state road I have driven on in Indiana, but they just put in all this nice infrastructure and don't care about efficiency the way MDOT does. I think MDOT does the best it can with its limited money, and still ends up running more efficiently. Even driving through Kalamazoo all the stop lights were timed on the arterial roads unlike South Bend-Mishawaka or Indy areas. Similar story with speed limits, Indiana has a 65 mph cap on any freeway that isn't an interstate, and 60 mph for four-lane highways (like US 31) that isn't to freeway standards. I was so shocked when I was up north in Michigan on 131 and the speed limit was 75mph on a road similar to US 31 between Veterans Pwky Pierce Rd. (only 65mph)
The thing is Michigan lefts aren't everywhere in the state, they are in a lot of places but there are still traffic lights that are poorly timed. We have lights like that in my area where there will be a green light and no traffic will be present on the street that has the green light but there will be 10-15 cars at the red light making all that traffic stop for no reason at all. The 75 mph speed limit is mostly in rural areas, except for US-10 between Midland and Bay City and I-69 between Flint and Lansing, those two highways have quite a bit of traffic on them for a 75 mph speed limit. I'd still rather live in Ohio or Indiana than this messed up state.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 28, 2022, 08:28:39 AM
The areas that got bumped from 55 to 65 mph were also touched on. Again, from the Free Press:
At the same time as freeway speeds were increased, the state Legislature in 2016 also hiked speed limits to 65 mph on nearly 950 miles of two-lane highways in northern Michigan and the Upper Peninsula. The MSU researchers, in a separate study using video camera, radar and LIDAR speed guns, found traveling speeds on those highways – the so-called 85th percentile speed, at which 85% of motorists will drive during free-flowing conditions – increased by 5 mph two years after the speed limit changes. The impact on crashes from those two-lane highway speed changes is a topic of ongoing research, Savolainen said.
Personal commentary: It would be nice if MDOT was able to arrive at design standards that would allow the bump to 65 mph in at least the U.P., or north of US-10. With areas like the Keweenaw and Ironwood being 9-10 hours away from the capitol, those 2017 speed limit hikes easily save 1-2 hours of drive time. If they were able to apply those hikes more universally, it would save even more.
I'm not seeing how it would save you 1-2 hours of drive time, maybe about 45 minutes but 1-2 hours seems to be stretching it.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 29, 2022, 11:00:17 AM
The thing is Michigan lefts aren't everywhere in the state, they are in a lot of places but there are still traffic lights that are poorly timed. We have lights like that in my area where there will be a green light and no traffic will be present on the street that has the green light but there will be 10-15 cars at the red light making all that traffic stop for no reason at all. The 75 mph speed limit is mostly in rural areas, except for US-10 between Midland and Bay City and I-69 between Flint and Lansing, those two highways have quite a bit of traffic on them for a 75 mph speed limit. I'd still rather live in Ohio or Indiana than this messed up state.
Even if Michigan lefts aren't absolutely everywhere, at least in Michigan they exist and that's more than can be said about other states. We get stuck with almost every road having inefficient left turn signalization.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 28, 2022, 08:18:44 AM
A recent Michigan State University study linked the bump in posted speeds from 70 to 75 mph on rural freeways with a 5% bump in accidents, based on statistics from 2014-2016 crash data (pre-increase) and 2018-2019 crash data (post-increase).
Thanks for posting this, I especially appreciate the direct link to the research. This is literally an extension of the research I worked on in grad school!
Quote from: catch22 on November 29, 2022, 07:14:02 AM
As part of the ongoing I-275 reconstruction between Eureka Road and the M-14/I-96 interchange, MDOT is starting the process of moving two-way traffic from the NB lanes to the newly-built SB lanes beginning today. There will be short-term ramp closures over the next few days as traffic is flipped, but the biggest headache will be that I-275 will be down to one lane in both directions for "two to three weeks" as MDOT moves the concrete barrier sections over to the new pavement. Then, there will be two lanes in both directions on the new pavement with all ramps open until the SB lanes are reconstructed next year.
Details here in this MDOT press release: https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/3395e16
Interesting; this is the first time I can recall where both directions of traffic have been temporarily aligned on one carriageway at the end of the year. I guess the contractor plans to continue working over the winter months with whatever demolition can be done on the nbd lanes.
Contrast that with the I-96 rebuild in western Oakland County. That was shut down a couple weeks ago for the winter, with all lanes reopened on both carriageways.
Sheetz is planning to open a Detroit location in 2025, with other Michigan locations to follow.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/11/29/sheetz-convenience-store-michigan/69684793007/
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 29, 2022, 06:49:24 PM
Sheetz is planning to open a Detroit location in 2025, with other Michigan locations to follow.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/11/29/sheetz-convenience-store-michigan/69684793007/
That's pretty interesting since they don't have any Michigan locations yet kinda like Loves was not too long ago.
Quote
"What they don't do is look at the actual accidents themselves, which is what I think you need to do," he said. "This doesn't take into account accidents caused by alcohol, drugs or excessive speed. It's usually not the speed necessarily, its driver error, distraction, excessive speed."
I'd bet donuts to dollars that much of that increase of accidents can be attributed to people using their cell phones while driving. No mention of that anywhere...
Quote from: thenetwork on November 29, 2022, 07:40:30 PM
Quote
"What they don't do is look at the actual accidents themselves, which is what I think you need to do," he said. "This doesn't take into account accidents caused by alcohol, drugs or excessive speed. It's usually not the speed necessarily, its driver error, distraction, excessive speed."
I'd bet donuts to dollars that much of that increase of accidents can be attributed to people using their cell phones while driving. No mention of that anywhere...
I'm seeing a lot more accidents of people simply refusing to yield a right of way, sometimes via just blowing through red lights.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 29, 2022, 07:46:27 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on November 29, 2022, 07:40:30 PM
Quote
"What they don't do is look at the actual accidents themselves, which is what I think you need to do," he said. "This doesn't take into account accidents caused by alcohol, drugs or excessive speed. It's usually not the speed necessarily, its driver error, distraction, excessive speed."
I'd bet donuts to dollars that much of that increase of accidents can be attributed to people using their cell phones while driving. No mention of that anywhere...
I'm seeing a lot more accidents of people simply refusing to yield a right of way, sometimes via just blowing through red lights.
I think it's more the reckless driving and impatience than it is cellphone use. I've said before and I'll say it again: A lot of people got used to living out their
Fast and the Furious fantasies while the roads were empty during COVID and they don't want to give it up.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 29, 2022, 11:01:25 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 28, 2022, 08:28:39 AM
With areas like the Keweenaw and Ironwood being 9-10 hours away from the capitol, those 2017 speed limit hikes easily save 1-2 hours of drive time. If they were able to apply those hikes more universally, it would save even more.
I'm not seeing how it would save you 1-2 hours of drive time, maybe about 45 minutes but 1-2 hours seems to be stretching it.
Starting from downtown Lansing, a drive to Houghton is 495 miles. A drive to Ironwood is 540 miles. Out of simplicity's sake, let's ignore the relatively short sections of sub-55mph highway and assume you can average at least 55 mph the entire distance. I'll deduct the time savings of the speed limit increases from that figure.
Between 1974 and 1986, you are legally restricted to 55 mph. Drive time without any stops or other slowdowns, Houghton (not the lake) is a 9 hour drive from Lansing, and Ironwood takes 9 hours, 48 minutes. The portion from Lansing to the Mackinac Bridge is 230 miles and takes 4 hours, 10 minutes on its own.
By the end of the '80s, you could travel 65 mph north of Ithaca to the bridge. So for 188 of those ~500 miles, you can travel 65 mph. That alone saves a half-hour of drive time.
By the end of the '90s, the St. Johns bypass was completed and speed limits on the freeways were bumped to 70 mph. Now we have 215 miles one could travel at 70 mph. Travel time from Lansing to the Mackinac Bridge drops to 3 hours, 23 minutes from 4 hours, 10 minutes, for a savings of 47 minutes.
Fast forward to the end of 2018, after all the speed limit hikes take effect. Lansing to the Mackinac Bridge now takes 3 hours, 8 minutes, which is a whole hour saved right there. Haven't even taken the U.P. into account yet.
Taking the fastest route from the Bridge to Houghton (US-2, M-77, M-28, US-41), there are now approx. 150 miles of 65 mph speed limits. That saves you 25 minutes of drive time. Between Ishpeming and Chassell, another 75 miles could be reasonably posted for 65 mph, which would save another 12 minutes.
Lansing to Houghton, 1986: 9 hours
Lansing to Houghton, 2018:
7 hours, 33 minutes - 1 hour, 27 minutes saved
Lansing to Houghton, all available 65 mph sections: 7 hours, 21 minutes - 1 hour, 39 minutes saved
Looking at Ironwood, I'll favor the northern path along M-28 to maximize mileage at 65 mph. I can traverse about 228 miles of the 303 miles at 65 mph. Drive time to cross the U.P. falls from 5 hours, 30 minutes to 4 hours, 52 minutes, a savings of 38 minutes. Bump up the US-41 stretch into Ishpeming to 65 and you'll knock off another 6 minutes.
Lansing to Ironwood, 1986: 9 hours, 48 minutes
Lansing to Ironwood, 2018:
8 hours, 10 minutes - 1 hour, 38 minutes saved
Lansing to Ironwood, all available 65 mph sections: 8 hours, 4 minutes - 1 hour, 44 minutes saved
Note that in both cases, it takes half-again as long to cross the U.P. as it does to get from the Mackinac Bridge to Lansing. Not only is it shorter in distance (to Houghton, you travel 260 miles in the U.P. v.s. 230 miles in the L.P..), the 10 additional MPH you can legally travel on I-75 and US-127 does a lot to shrink drive time across the L.P.
^
It's not just drives down to the Mitten. I worked in hotels while I was finishing college in Green Bay (mid-80s). We'd regularly host visitors coming down to Green Bay from the UP for medical appointments, shopping, and entertainment (one hotel was walking distance from the Brown County Arena). We'd have close to 20 rooms booked by shoppers each Thanksgiving coming down from Houghton, Escanaba, Iron Mountain, and especially the Marquette area for Black Friday shopping. The difference between 55 mph and 65 mph is at least a half hour drive extra (and it was two lanes back then except around Escanaba/Gladstone and south of Abrams). I wouldn't be surprised if even more shoppers took the extra couple hours down I-43 to Milwaukee for more shopping options.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 29, 2022, 06:42:16 PM
Quote from: catch22 on November 29, 2022, 07:14:02 AM
As part of the ongoing I-275 reconstruction between Eureka Road and the M-14/I-96 interchange, MDOT is starting the process of moving two-way traffic from the NB lanes to the newly-built SB lanes beginning today. There will be short-term ramp closures over the next few days as traffic is flipped, but the biggest headache will be that I-275 will be down to one lane in both directions for "two to three weeks" as MDOT moves the concrete barrier sections over to the new pavement. Then, there will be two lanes in both directions on the new pavement with all ramps open until the SB lanes are reconstructed next year.
Details here in this MDOT press release: https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/3395e16
Interesting; this is the first time I can recall where both directions of traffic have been temporarily aligned on one carriageway at the end of the year. I guess the contractor plans to continue working over the winter months with whatever demolition can be done on the nbd lanes.
Contrast that with the I-96 rebuild in western Oakland County. That was shut down a couple weeks ago for the winter, with all lanes reopened on both carriageways.
This is the first one I can recall as well. It will make snow removal somewhat of a problem with the narrow left shoulder.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 29, 2022, 09:18:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 29, 2022, 11:01:25 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 28, 2022, 08:28:39 AM
With areas like the Keweenaw and Ironwood being 9-10 hours away from the capitol, those 2017 speed limit hikes easily save 1-2 hours of drive time. If they were able to apply those hikes more universally, it would save even more.
I'm not seeing how it would save you 1-2 hours of drive time, maybe about 45 minutes but 1-2 hours seems to be stretching it.
Starting from downtown Lansing, a drive to Houghton is 495 miles. A drive to Ironwood is 540 miles. Out of simplicity's sake, let's ignore the relatively short sections of sub-55mph highway and assume you can average at least 55 mph the entire distance. I'll deduct the time savings of the speed limit increases from that figure.
Between 1974 and 1986, you are legally restricted to 55 mph. Drive time without any stops or other slowdowns, Houghton (not the lake) is a 9 hour drive from Lansing, and Ironwood takes 9 hours, 48 minutes. The portion from Lansing to the Mackinac Bridge is 230 miles and takes 4 hours, 10 minutes on its own.
By the end of the '80s, you could travel 65 mph north of Ithaca to the bridge. So for 188 of those ~500 miles, you can travel 65 mph. That alone saves a half-hour of drive time.
By the end of the '90s, the St. Johns bypass was completed and speed limits on the freeways were bumped to 70 mph. Now we have 215 miles one could travel at 70 mph. Travel time from Lansing to the Mackinac Bridge drops to 3 hours, 23 minutes from 4 hours, 10 minutes, for a savings of 47 minutes.
Fast forward to the end of 2018, after all the speed limit hikes take effect. Lansing to the Mackinac Bridge now takes 3 hours, 8 minutes, which is a whole hour saved right there. Haven't even taken the U.P. into account yet.
Taking the fastest route from the Bridge to Houghton (US-2, M-77, M-28, US-41), there are now approx. 150 miles of 65 mph speed limits. That saves you 25 minutes of drive time. Between Ishpeming and Chassell, another 75 miles could be reasonably posted for 65 mph, which would save another 12 minutes.
Lansing to Houghton, 1986: 9 hours
Lansing to Houghton, 2018: 7 hours, 33 minutes - 1 hour, 27 minutes saved
Lansing to Houghton, all available 65 mph sections: 7 hours, 21 minutes - 1 hour, 39 minutes saved
Looking at Ironwood, I'll favor the northern path along M-28 to maximize mileage at 65 mph. I can traverse about 228 miles of the 303 miles at 65 mph. Drive time to cross the U.P. falls from 5 hours, 30 minutes to 4 hours, 52 minutes, a savings of 38 minutes. Bump up the US-41 stretch into Ishpeming to 65 and you'll knock off another 6 minutes.
Lansing to Ironwood, 1986: 9 hours, 48 minutes
Lansing to Ironwood, 2018: 8 hours, 10 minutes - 1 hour, 38 minutes saved
Lansing to Ironwood, all available 65 mph sections: 8 hours, 4 minutes - 1 hour, 44 minutes saved
Note that in both cases, it takes half-again as long to cross the U.P. as it does to get from the Mackinac Bridge to Lansing. Not only is it shorter in distance (to Houghton, you travel 260 miles in the U.P. v.s. 230 miles in the L.P..), the 10 additional MPH you can legally travel on I-75 and US-127 does a lot to shrink drive time across the L.P.
I'm talking about bumping the speed from 70 mph to 75 mph and from 55 mph to 65 mph. It might save you about 25 minutes or so to travel 75 mph vs. 70 mph between Lansing and the bridge. I know how far it is to Houghton it's just over 7 hours and 450 miles from where I live. When I spent the night in Norway which is near Iron Mountain where US-8 ends I was checking into a hotel there and told the person at the front desk that I was from Saginaw and they said that's at least a day's drive away and this was in Norway. That was when I was finishing up my counties in Michigan. The next morning after I checked out of the hotel I proceeded to drive to Copper Harbor which I thought eh I'm in the U.P. it's not that long of a drive to go north and south, it took me over 3 hours to drive to Copper Harbor and that is even an hour north of Houghton. I thought it would take me half the time it did.
The U.P. is no joke though, the towns are far and few in between and most of the time aren't very big towns at all, the biggest city up there is Marquette with a population of around 20,000. Sault Ste. Marie and Escanaba are the only other cities with a population over 10,000. I don't know why but I always feel rather isolated from the rest of the state when I'm in Sault Ste. Marie.
MDOT is planning to rebuild I-94/Capital Avenue Interchange in 2023. An open house will be held on Dec 8th to discuss the plans. No word if they will keep the current configuration or rebuild it as a DDI.
QuoteMDOT plans to rebuild the I-94 interchange at Capital Avenue in summer 2023. Capital Avenue will be closed and detoured while the bridge is rebuilt. During the closure, there will be pedestrian access to a transit shuttle and the I-94 ramps will remain open. The closure will result in a better finished bridge (requiring less ongoing maintenance and future traffic interruptions), will require 75 days instead of the originally planned 240-day work schedule, and will save $1.5 million in project cost. The Capital Avenue interchange ramps will be closed and rebuilt after the bridge is completed and reopened.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/11/30/mdot-open-house-dec-8-for-i-94-capital-avenue-interchange-rebuilding-project
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 30, 2022, 04:01:34 PM
The U.P. is no joke though, the towns are far and few in between and most of the time aren't very big towns at all, the biggest city up there is Marquette with a population of around 20,000. Sault Ste. Marie and Escanaba are the only other cities with a population over 10,000. I don't know why but I always feel rather isolated from the rest of the state when I'm in Sault Ste. Marie.
Pretty much because you ARE isolated, even by U.P. standards. The central and western U.P. is an isolated area, but there's far more people there than in the eastern U.P.. East of Munising and Manistique, bears probably outnumber the un-incarcerated human population.
Sure, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario has over 100,000 residents and is one of the largest cities on Lake Superior. But without a passport it might as well be outer space.
Since we're discussing speed limits, apparently the Michigan State Police is going to pull overtime working enforcing speed limits through the end of February. So, maybe you cut your 10-over or so to more like a 5-over the speed limit for a while?
MSP to target speeding drivers across Michigan for next 3 months
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/12/01/msp-speeding-michigan-fatalities/69691869007/
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 30, 2022, 07:55:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 30, 2022, 04:01:34 PM
The U.P. is no joke though, the towns are far and few in between and most of the time aren't very big towns at all, the biggest city up there is Marquette with a population of around 20,000. Sault Ste. Marie and Escanaba are the only other cities with a population over 10,000. I don't know why but I always feel rather isolated from the rest of the state when I'm in Sault Ste. Marie.
Pretty much because you ARE isolated, even by U.P. standards. The central and western U.P. is an isolated area, but there's far more people there than in the eastern U.P.. East of Munising and Manistique, bears probably outnumber the un-incarcerated human population.
Sure, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario has over 100,000 residents and is one of the largest cities on Lake Superior. But without a passport it might as well be outer space.
That's true. There are only about 60,000 people in Chippewa, Mackinac, Luce and Schoolcraft counties combined. Chippewa has almost the same population that Houghton and Delta counties have. Luce is one of the least populated counties in the state, Mackinac has twice the population that Luce does and Schoolcraft is in between the two in population. I have a lot of experience with the U.P. especially in the eastern part of it and own property just south of Cedarville. I love the U.P.
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario is pretty spread out. It's actually got a population of around 75,000 people in an area of about 300 square miles.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 01, 2022, 03:30:40 PM
Since we're discussing speed limits, apparently the Michigan State Police is going to pull overtime working enforcing speed limits through the end of February. So, maybe you cut your 10-over or so to more like a 5-over the speed limit for a while?
MSP to target speeding drivers across Michigan for next 3 months
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/12/01/msp-speeding-michigan-fatalities/69691869007/
Thanks for the heads up. We plan to be in Michigan around Christmastime, but we'll be on I-94 a lot and I'm sure we'll struggle to really hit the limit much. :-P
I won't encourage anyone to speed but I know in Detroit last summer there was a sting on the Jeffries where they were pulling you over for anything over 85 mph. They'd let you go 80 and did nothing about that. State police actually agree that doing 80 is fine but don't do anything over that.
Awhile back I was on SB I-75 coming onto SB I-675 in Saginaw and was in the left lane doing 80 mph with a state cop behind me I think I saw him flinch a little but disregarded and I got over in the right lane and he passed me. I usually drive about 80 on the highways.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2022, 05:07:50 PM
I won't encourage anyone to speed but I know in Detroit last summer there was a sting on the Jeffries where they were pulling you over for anything over 85 mph. They'd let you go 80 and did nothing about that. State police actually agree that doing 80 is fine but don't do anything over that.
Awhile back I was on SB I-75 coming onto SB I-675 in Saginaw and was in the left lane doing 80 mph with a state cop behind me I think I saw him flinch a little but disregarded and I got over in the right lane and he passed me. I usually drive about 80 on the highways.
Which I think is a reasonable methodology. The biggest problems are those going significantly faster than the general flow (i.e., 90+ when most are going 70) and
weaving. Actual dangerous driving.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 01, 2022, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2022, 05:07:50 PM
I won't encourage anyone to speed but I know in Detroit last summer there was a sting on the Jeffries where they were pulling you over for anything over 85 mph. They'd let you go 80 and did nothing about that. State police actually agree that doing 80 is fine but don't do anything over that.
Awhile back I was on SB I-75 coming onto SB I-675 in Saginaw and was in the left lane doing 80 mph with a state cop behind me I think I saw him flinch a little but disregarded and I got over in the right lane and he passed me. I usually drive about 80 on the highways.
Which I think is a reasonable methodology. The biggest problems are those going significantly faster than the general flow (i.e., 90+ when most are going 70) and weaving. Actual dangerous driving.
My best advice is don't stand out. If you are going with the flow and the flow is doing 80 the cops aren't going to mess with you but say the flow is going 80 and you're doing 90 or more miles an hour then yeah the cops are going to go after that guy. Just blend in and you're fine.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2022, 04:15:53 PM
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario is pretty spread out. It's actually got a population of around 75,000 people in an area of about 300 square miles.
Many municipalities in Ontario are huge, encompassing rural areas. Look at the one called Kawartha Lakes.
My experience (mainly in rural areas of Michigan) has been the MSP is fine up to about 8 or 9 over, then at 10 over will start pulling people over. At 10 over they'll give you a roadside chat, but as long as you behave properly during the stop they'll generally let it go. Beyond that, you're probably getting a ticket.
I normally stick to about 7 or 8 over, allowing some leeway with cruise control to drift up a little on downhills. Beyond that is generally not worth the extra gas and mental stress of watching for the hiding spots the troopers like to use. On the 75 mph sections, I'll let it drift up to 80, but that's about it.
Along the "Seney Stretch" (a 25-mile dead-straight and level stretch of M-28 between Seney and Shingleton), the MSP catches a lot of people off-guard. It's literally the middle of nowhere, and people don't expect actual enforcement there. But there's nowhere to hide, and usually they get a lock on their radar before the driver's aware it's a cop headed in the opposing lane. Usually it's closer to Shingleton, about the point where drivers are lulled into a false sense that there's no enforcement.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 01, 2022, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2022, 05:07:50 PM
I won't encourage anyone to speed but I know in Detroit last summer there was a sting on the Jeffries where they were pulling you over for anything over 85 mph. They'd let you go 80 and did nothing about that. State police actually agree that doing 80 is fine but don't do anything over that.
Awhile back I was on SB I-75 coming onto SB I-675 in Saginaw and was in the left lane doing 80 mph with a state cop behind me I think I saw him flinch a little but disregarded and I got over in the right lane and he passed me. I usually drive about 80 on the highways.
Which I think is a reasonable methodology. The biggest problems are those going significantly faster than the general flow (i.e., 90+ when most are going 70) and weaving. Actual dangerous driving.
or slower, especially in the left lane
What gets me on highways like US-23 south of Flint is that it's two lanes in each direction for almost the entire 90 miles to the Ohio border. You get people in the left lane going slower especially near I-96, then you get both lanes moving slow and you have no other lane to pass in.
A sad day for railfans and roadgeeks - the Newberry Road wooden railroad trestle bridge over the Canadian National Railway line burned up in a fire Saturday.
Historic railroad bridge on fire in Shiawassee County
https://www.wilx.com/2022/12/03/historic-railroad-bridge-fire-shiawassee-county/ (https://www.wilx.com/2022/12/03/historic-railroad-bridge-fire-shiawassee-county/)
Newberry Road Bridge
https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=michigan/newberry/ (https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=michigan/newberry/)
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 03, 2022, 06:39:39 PM
A sad day for railfans and roadgeeks - the Newberry Road wooden railroad trestle bridge over the Canadian National Railway line burned up in a fire Saturday.
Historic railroad bridge on fire in Shiawassee County
https://www.wilx.com/2022/12/03/historic-railroad-bridge-fire-shiawassee-county/ (https://www.wilx.com/2022/12/03/historic-railroad-bridge-fire-shiawassee-county/)
Newberry Road Bridge
https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=michigan/newberry/ (https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=michigan/newberry/)
That was a rather strange bridge, it was on a dirt road and of course was wooden. It seemed like it was more like a railroad bridge. Here it is on Google Maps, https://www.google.com/maps/@42.891802,-84.0186875,18z
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2022, 08:24:33 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 03, 2022, 06:39:39 PM
A sad day for railfans and roadgeeks - the Newberry Road wooden railroad trestle bridge over the Canadian National Railway line burned up in a fire Saturday.
Historic railroad bridge on fire in Shiawassee County
https://www.wilx.com/2022/12/03/historic-railroad-bridge-fire-shiawassee-county/ (https://www.wilx.com/2022/12/03/historic-railroad-bridge-fire-shiawassee-county/)
Newberry Road Bridge
https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=michigan/newberry/ (https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=michigan/newberry/)
That was a rather strange bridge, it was on a dirt road and of course was wooden. It seemed like it was more like a railroad bridge. Here it is on Google Maps, https://www.google.com/maps/@42.891802,-84.0186875,18z
That's unfortunate. Was it arson?
Street View exists from 2009. You can even see the Weight Limit sign for "1 Tons".
https://goo.gl/maps/4jTZHQ2amrzBsR4a9
Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 05, 2022, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2022, 08:24:33 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 03, 2022, 06:39:39 PM
A sad day for railfans and roadgeeks - the Newberry Road wooden railroad trestle bridge over the Canadian National Railway line burned up in a fire Saturday.
Historic railroad bridge on fire in Shiawassee County
https://www.wilx.com/2022/12/03/historic-railroad-bridge-fire-shiawassee-county/ (https://www.wilx.com/2022/12/03/historic-railroad-bridge-fire-shiawassee-county/)
Newberry Road Bridge
https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=michigan/newberry/ (https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=michigan/newberry/)
That was a rather strange bridge, it was on a dirt road and of course was wooden. It seemed like it was more like a railroad bridge. Here it is on Google Maps, https://www.google.com/maps/@42.891802,-84.0186875,18z
That's unfortunate. Was it arson?
Street View exists from 2009. You can even see the Weight Limit sign for "1 Tons".
https://goo.gl/maps/4jTZHQ2amrzBsR4a9
As far as I know they are still investigating it.
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up. I haven't seen any other information about this anywhere else, so it's been kept pretty close to the vest, for some reason.
I've updated the M-30 route listing on the Michigan Highways website: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-030.html
Speaking of which, if you haven't stopped by lately, you may want to peruse the What's New? page: http://www.michiganhighways.org/whats_new.html . There's a bunch of new info on the US-31 Freeway completion in Berrien County, a literal crap-ton of new route maps have been added, a bunch of updates, and several new route listings have been migrated to the new format. As always, feedback is always welcomed and encouraged!
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up. I haven't seen any other information about this anywhere else, so it's been kept pretty close to the vest, for some reason.
I've updated the M-30 route listing on the Michigan Highways website: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-030.html
Speaking of which, if you haven't stopped by lately, you may want to peruse the What's New? page: http://www.michiganhighways.org/whats_new.html . There's a bunch of new info on the US-31 Freeway completion in Berrien County, a literal crap-ton of new route maps have been added, a bunch of updates, and several new route listings have been migrated to the new format. As always, feedback is always welcomed and encouraged!
I've said that should have been done a long time ago. I've been on Meridian Road between M-20 and M-46 recently and haven't noticed anything. It would only go as far south as M-46 though because Meridian turns into a dirt road south of Swan Creek/Lincoln Road. That's as far south as M-30 has ever gone anyway.
Wouldn't the southern 4 miles include the Gratiot County Road Commission as well or is that just going to be Saginaw County? I don't see how it could be since half the roadway is in Gratiot County. Also this would be the second re-extension of M-30 including the re-extension from US-10 to M-20 in 2009 which included a new bridge over the Tittabawassee River.
MDOT studying traffic relief for busy Birch Run commercial areaQuoteMDOT is planning a community meeting on Dec. 14 to study a variety of traffic relief measures for the busy I-75 interchange and commercial corridor. The meeting is part of a year-long study to develop potential plans.
M-83 carries traffic from I-75 to the main entrance at Birch Run Premium Outlets and numerous businesses. The interchange also serves as the gateway for tourists visiting Frankenmuth about five miles away.
MDOT is looking at current traffic patterns and future projections for the I-75 interchange in Birch Run, along with M-83 heading east to Gera Road.
https://www.abc12.com/traffic/mdot-studying-traffic-relief-for-busy-birch-run-commercial-area/article_587587ce-727f-11ed-a24e-8bcaa898386b.html
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up. I haven't seen any other information about this anywhere else, so it's been kept pretty close to the vest, for some reason.
It appears Saginaw County has been trying to offer it back to MDOT as early as April 24, 2018: https://www.scrc-mi.org/wp-content/uploads/BM2018.pdf (https://www.scrc-mi.org/wp-content/uploads/BM2018.pdf)
AADT on the stretch vary from about 4,000 just north of M-46 to nearly 7,000 at M-20. (https://mdot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Mdot&mod=TCDS (https://mdot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Mdot&mod=TCDS)) So, it's certainly a well-used roadway.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 06, 2022, 01:12:50 PM
Wouldn't the southern 4 miles include the Gratiot County Road Commission as well or is that just going to be Saginaw County? I don't see how it could be since half the roadway is in Gratiot County. Also this would be the second re-extension of M-30 including the re-extension from US-10 to M-20 in 2009 which included a new bridge over the Tittabawassee River.
It appears that the section bordering Saginaw County was under their jurisdiction, which is not uncommon. For example, Waverly Rd south of Columbia Rd is under Eaton County jurisdiction, and north of Columbia is under Ingham County jurisdiction (at least the sections that aren't in the City of Lansing).
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM... if you haven't stopped by lately, you may want to peruse the What's New? page: http://www.michiganhighways.org/whats_new.html . There's a bunch of new info on the US-31 Freeway completion in Berrien County, a literal crap-ton of new route maps have been added, a bunch of updates, and several new route listings have been migrated to the new format. As always, feedback is always welcomed and encouraged!
I'm assuming the Rest Area marker on EBD I-94 just east of the I-196/US-31 interchange is an artifact. It's been at least 10 years since that rest area's been open.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 06, 2022, 08:18:08 PM
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up. I haven't seen any other information about this anywhere else, so it's been kept pretty close to the vest, for some reason.
It appears Saginaw County has been trying to offer it back to MDOT as early as April 24, 2018: https://www.scrc-mi.org/wp-content/uploads/BM2018.pdf (https://www.scrc-mi.org/wp-content/uploads/BM2018.pdf)
AADT on the stretch vary from about 4,000 just north of M-46 to nearly 7,000 at M-20. (https://mdot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Mdot&mod=TCDS (https://mdot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Mdot&mod=TCDS)) So, it's certainly a well-used roadway.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 06, 2022, 01:12:50 PM
Wouldn't the southern 4 miles include the Gratiot County Road Commission as well or is that just going to be Saginaw County? I don't see how it could be since half the roadway is in Gratiot County. Also this would be the second re-extension of M-30 including the re-extension from US-10 to M-20 in 2009 which included a new bridge over the Tittabawassee River.
It appears that the section bordering Saginaw County was under their jurisdiction, which is not uncommon. For example, Waverly Rd south of Columbia Rd is under Eaton County jurisdiction, and north of Columbia is under Ingham County jurisdiction (at least the sections that aren't in the City of Lansing).
Waverly shifts at Columbia, Meridian doesn't shift anywhere along this stretch and is half in Midland County, half in Saginaw County and half in Gratiot County, half in Saginaw County. Meridian is a well traveled north-south route in this area.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 06, 2022, 08:18:08 PM
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up. I haven't seen any other information about this anywhere else, so it's been kept pretty close to the vest, for some reason.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 06, 2022, 01:12:50 PM
Wouldn't the southern 4 miles include the Gratiot County Road Commission as well or is that just going to be Saginaw County? I don't see how it could be since half the roadway is in Gratiot County. Also this would be the second re-extension of M-30 including the re-extension from US-10 to M-20 in 2009 which included a new bridge over the Tittabawassee River.
It appears that the section bordering Saginaw County was under their jurisdiction, which is not uncommon. For example, Waverly Rd south of Columbia Rd is under Eaton County jurisdiction, and north of Columbia is under Ingham County jurisdiction (at least the sections that aren't in the City of Lansing).
Correct. As I'm the one who created and maintains the current iteration of the Kalamazoo County Act 51 Certification Mapbook ( https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/SpecProv/getDocumentById.htm?docGuid=dbdc63fb-6af6-4572-82a9-af36ea192c64&fileName=%22Kalamazoo%20Co_2022.pdf%22 ), I can tell you that county line roads are always "owned" by one of the two counties. Usually, on a given county line, the two counties will divvy up the mileage of the county line road in a way that makes sense, giving each county about 50% of the mileage. When it comes to municipal boundary line roads in Michigan, either they are County Primary/Local roads or City Major/Minor streets–never shared. Now, if it's on the boundary between two incorporated cities, I've seen a street with mileage shared 50/50 between each city, but it's kind of rare.
But back to this particular case, the portion of Meridian Rd from the Midland Co line south to M-46 that is being re-constituted as M-30 is under Saginaw County jurisdiction. Other parts of the Saginaw/Gratiot Co line road would likely be under Gratiot Co jurisdiction.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 06, 2022, 08:57:59 PM
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM... if you haven't stopped by lately, you may want to peruse the What's New? page: http://www.michiganhighways.org/whats_new.html . There's a bunch of new info on the US-31 Freeway completion in Berrien County, a literal crap-ton of new route maps have been added, a bunch of updates, and several new route listings have been migrated to the new format. As always, feedback is always welcomed and encouraged!
I'm assuming the Rest Area marker on EBD I-94 just east of the I-196/US-31 interchange is an artifact. It's been at least 10 years since that rest area's been open.
Indeed. Good catch. I meant to either make a note on the map or possibly just remove it for now. MDOT has stated they are committed to re-opening that rest area at some point in the future, pending the availability of funding and possibly being able to connect to municipal water/sewer, which is the biggest issue with that rest area (it needed costly new water treatment facilities). I'm hopeful it gets reopened someday, even though I don't travel that segment of I-94 very often (I head north on I-196) because I'm a firm believer in the utility and benefits of the rest areas on our highways.
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up. I haven't seen any other information about this anywhere else, so it's been kept pretty close to the vest, for some reason.
I've updated the M-30 route listing on the Michigan Highways website: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-030.html
Speaking of which, if you haven't stopped by lately, you may want to peruse the What's New? page: http://www.michiganhighways.org/whats_new.html . There's a bunch of new info on the US-31 Freeway completion in Berrien County, a literal crap-ton of new route maps have been added, a bunch of updates, and several new route listings have been migrated to the new format. As always, feedback is always welcomed and encouraged!
UPDATE! Okay, this is odd, but the MDOT Right-of-Way maps indicate the portion of Meridian Rd south of M-20 in Midland County only was "reacquired" by MDOT on
February 10, 2022 with MOU 2022-0519. This same notation is NOT on the two M-30 ROW sheets in Saginaw County, which have not been updated since 2001. But based on MCRC board meeting minutes, it's clear they don't consider Meridian Rd as being transferred yet, so I have to believe this "reacquired" means this was the date MCRC signed the MOU with MDOT to transfer the road "at such time it is brought to standards agreed to by both parties blah, blah, blah...". Since MDOT hasn't made mention of M-30 south of M-20–they sure didn't put it on the 2022 official map!–I have to assume my theory is correct and that the official transfer has yet to take place. And, if that is, indeed, correct, I'm a bit surprised MDOT engineers would put such a "reacquired" date on the ROW maps like that. Weird...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fimages%2FM-30_reacquired_2022_MDOTROW.png&hash=87623bb55bf88a48037fba8317137443a3811395)
https://goo.gl/maps/Ki59mWqcxouF9axk8
https://goo.gl/maps/2DjzvLwnjSnBddA46
APL signage at I-196 on I-94 EB. What I like is "Grand Rapids" is spelled out. No Gd as before.
https://goo.gl/maps/XYCuX69HuZLKHu1u9
Quote from: roadman65 on December 12, 2022, 03:04:08 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/Ki59mWqcxouF9axk8
https://goo.gl/maps/2DjzvLwnjSnBddA46
APL signage at I-196 on I-94 EB. What I like is "Grand Rapids" is spelled out. No Gd as before.
https://goo.gl/maps/XYCuX69HuZLKHu1u9
The conversion from "Gd" to "Grand" statewide has been underway for several years now. And, as a lifelong Michigander who very much appreciates "character" and idiosyncratic things, I
never was a fan of "Gd." I'm nostalgic for the old underlined directionals (and "
DOWNTOWN") on freeway signs and miss when Michigan was the last bastion of ONLY spanwire traffic signals. But, to me "G-D" was always shorthand for "Goddamn", so I've never been a huge fan of living in suburban "Goddamn Rapids" to be honest and I was born and lived the first five years of my life two houses off "Goddamn River Ave" in downtown Howell. "Gd" can't go away fast enough, IMHO.
Here are some photos I took earlier today on my way back from Chicagoland (the third–the APL sign–is actually from early November from the day before the US-31 freeway opened to traffic):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2Fsigns_I-94_at_I-196_2022a.jpg&hash=18d3fc7357b796fcb5c4d02614366b9c59c67bd2)
The first sign announcing the exit for I-196 & US-31 NORTH from I-94 EAST.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2Fsigns_I-94_at_I-196_2022b.jpg&hash=351f46cd1aa861f7cfe4d2737a199878fe29609c)
The OLD first sign announcing Exit 34. You can see it's probably a few years beyond needing to be removed. I assume it'll come down in the spring when the construction contractor takes care of the final punchlist items for the US-31 freeway construction project.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2Fsigns_I-94_at_I-196_2022c.jpg&hash=edbf65ba1cf8f4a2a2116bde7fcc6b4626efb84a)
The "one mile" (or 1 1/4 mile sign since they took advantage of the overpass) for Exit 34.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2Fsigns_I-94_at_I-196_2022d.jpg&hash=2889badc1e97d460198c6c132afe3b4a06dbe921)
That new APL sign, taken back on November 8, 2022. From GSV, it looks like the first "Grand Rapids" signs (not featuring "Gd") showed up here at Exit 34 back around 2015.
Nice photos, thanks for sharing. The new signs look nice. I even like how the option arrow is the combined up and straight arrow design rather than the MUTCD-spec option arrow which doesn't look like it matches.
I could certainly nitpick though about how I've noticed contractors struggle to get these big signs in place where there are actually two separate panels split vertically down the middle, and then you can see through the gap between them sometimes.
Quote from: roadman65 on December 12, 2022, 03:04:08 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/Ki59mWqcxouF9axk8
https://goo.gl/maps/2DjzvLwnjSnBddA46
APL signage at I-196 on I-94 EB. What I like is "Grand Rapids" is spelled out. No Gd as before.
https://goo.gl/maps/XYCuX69HuZLKHu1u9
They usually will spell the word Grand out when they have room on the sign to do so. One interchange that has fondled me over this is the interchange with I-69 and I-96 on the NW side of Lansing. One direction they have it spelled out as Grand Rapids and in the other direction it's spelled out Gd Rapids. It might be a hold over from when they replaced the signs there about 10-12 years ago when they didn't have the room on the sign to do so because of the Grand River exit being mentioned which is no longer mentioned.
Anyway here's where they spell it out: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7934649,-84.6512327,3a,15y,233.83h,89.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4_44slSOm2a4PXHCd73rBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
And where they don't: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7734006,-84.6691256,3a,15y,346.28h,96.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s60elbQWDaUZEaON1tNl_ww!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is the same spot as the second one but more dated: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.773663,-84.6692403,3a,75y,339.79h,100.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sprbeeaEviqBn3mNVfotskQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 12, 2022, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 12, 2022, 03:04:08 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/Ki59mWqcxouF9axk8
https://goo.gl/maps/2DjzvLwnjSnBddA46
APL signage at I-196 on I-94 EB. What I like is "Grand Rapids" is spelled out. No Gd as before.
https://goo.gl/maps/XYCuX69HuZLKHu1u9
They usually will spell the word Grand out when they have room on the sign to do so. One interchange that has fondled me over this is the interchange with I-69 and I-96 on the NW side of Lansing. One direction they have it spelled out as Grand Rapids and in the other direction it's spelled out Gd Rapids. It might be a hold over from when they replaced the signs there about 10-12 years ago when they didn't have the room on the sign to do so because of the Grand River exit being mentioned which is no longer mentioned.
Anyway here's where they spell it out: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7934649,-84.6512327,3a,15y,233.83h,89.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4_44slSOm2a4PXHCd73rBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
And where they don't: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7734006,-84.6691256,3a,15y,346.28h,96.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s60elbQWDaUZEaON1tNl_ww!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is the same spot as the second one but more dated: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.773663,-84.6692403,3a,75y,339.79h,100.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sprbeeaEviqBn3mNVfotskQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664
Nah, it was pretty much an MDOT-wide "rule" to abbreviate "Grand" as "Gd" no matter what, even if there was copious space to do so. In the OLDEN days, you'd be hard-pressed to find "Grand" anywhere out there on Michigan's freeway system. You'll notice that on many of the newer sign installations where they've spelled out "Grand" in the past ten years or so, they've had to widen the physical sign panel or go to a two-line legend in some cases to get it to fit. As many MDOT contacts as I've had over the years, this is one I don't have any
specific insider knowledge on–I can only speculate with an informed guess. I'd say the individual in charge of sign legends retired and some new guy or gal came in and asked "Why do we abbreviate 'Grand' as 'Gd'?" and when no one could give a real answer, he or she decided it was time to retire that old "rule." And good riddance! :clap:
Quote from: bessertc on December 12, 2022, 03:14:26 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 12, 2022, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 12, 2022, 03:04:08 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/Ki59mWqcxouF9axk8
https://goo.gl/maps/2DjzvLwnjSnBddA46
APL signage at I-196 on I-94 EB. What I like is "Grand Rapids" is spelled out. No Gd as before.
https://goo.gl/maps/XYCuX69HuZLKHu1u9
They usually will spell the word Grand out when they have room on the sign to do so. One interchange that has fondled me over this is the interchange with I-69 and I-96 on the NW side of Lansing. One direction they have it spelled out as Grand Rapids and in the other direction it's spelled out Gd Rapids. It might be a hold over from when they replaced the signs there about 10-12 years ago when they didn't have the room on the sign to do so because of the Grand River exit being mentioned which is no longer mentioned.
Anyway here's where they spell it out: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7934649,-84.6512327,3a,15y,233.83h,89.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4_44slSOm2a4PXHCd73rBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
And where they don't: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7734006,-84.6691256,3a,15y,346.28h,96.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s60elbQWDaUZEaON1tNl_ww!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is the same spot as the second one but more dated: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.773663,-84.6692403,3a,75y,339.79h,100.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sprbeeaEviqBn3mNVfotskQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664
Nah, it was pretty much an MDOT-wide "rule" to abbreviate "Grand" as "Gd" no matter what, even if there was copious space to do so. In the OLDEN days, you'd be hard-pressed to find "Grand" anywhere out there on Michigan's freeway system. You'll notice that on many of the newer sign installations where they've spelled out "Grand" in the past ten years or so, they've had to widen the physical sign panel or go to a two-line legend in some cases to get it to fit. As many MDOT contacts as I've had over the years, this is one I don't have any specific insider knowledge on–I can only speculate with an informed guess. I'd say the individual in charge of sign legends retired and some new guy or gal came in and asked "Why do we abbreviate 'Grand' as 'Gd'?" and when no one could give a real answer, he or she decided it was time to retire that old "rule." And good riddance! :clap:
I'm glad to see the abbreviation being retired. I borrowed a copy of the 1948 Michigan MUTCD from the Library of Michigan several years ago, and it had example mileage signs bearing "GD RAPIDS", so it was a long-standing convention.
Are they starting to de-abbreviate the Mackinac Bridge
signs?
I recently saw a newer sign somewhere online where it said Bridge instead of Br.
Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 09:50:09 AM
Are they starting to de-abbreviate the Mackinac Bridge
signs?
I recently saw a newer sign somewhere online where it said Bridge instead of Br.
I would have to say no because the sign I'm about to post in GSV (GSV went through in August so it's there) has Br on it. I think it depends on the sign, the one in this GSV would be off center if it spelled the word Bridge out.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4258639,-83.8906184,3a,25y,358.5h,102.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQzuMeIWwqhuZ9WXhFoPqjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
On this sign here they used the space under Mackinac to put the word Bridge on it. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.612216,-84.7383427,3a,40.1y,13.8h,115.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJB2kz_S3-UQd1MmO0m4wwA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Both directions of the Mackinac Bridge have reopened following an earlier accident that shut the entire bridge down.
Delay in Block on YouTube posted a video today discussing the short-lived at-grade railroad crossing on I-94 just west of M-99 near Albion, as well as another rail line that crossed at-grade both I-94 and US-23 just west of their interchange in Ann Arbor. Also featured: the at-grade railroad crossing of US-127 just north of M-57 in operation.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 15, 2022, 08:35:38 PM
Delay in Block on YouTube posted a video today discussing the short-lived at-grade railroad crossing on I-94 just west of M-99 near Albion, as well as another rail line that crossed at-grade both I-94 and US-23 just west of their interchange in Ann Arbor. Also featured: the at-grade railroad crossing of US-127 just north of M-57 in operation.
There was another at grade RR crossing along US-131 in Wyoming, near the 54th St exit in the 1960's. I believe it was removed prior to 1970. There were traffic signals associated with it, but it was still considered a freeway or "expressway" as they were called back then.
You could probably say that many of these interchanges along US-127 are secondary but in Mount Pleasant they use Mackinac Bridge as a control city twice, at the M-20 interchange and at the US-10 interchange. Otherwise the exits between Mount Pleasant and Clare use Clare as the control city then north of Clare they use Grayling as the control city. I don't understand why they can't keep it consistent. The Mackinac Bridge isn't even on US-127 but it will take you to I-75 which the Mackinac Bridge is on so using Mackinac Bridge as a control city on US-127 is fine but going back to use Clare again and then using Grayling is just a mess IMO.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 15, 2022, 08:35:38 PM
Delay in Block on YouTube posted a video today discussing the short-lived at-grade railroad crossing on I-94 just west of M-99 near Albion, as well as another rail line that crossed at-grade both I-94 and US-23 just west of their interchange in Ann Arbor. Also featured: the at-grade railroad crossing of US-127 just north of M-57 in operation.
Thanks for posting that. I've driven over that US-127 crossing at least 100 times in the last 30 years, and never saw a train cross there.
I'm old enough to remember the crossings at the I-94/US-23 interchange, but never had to stop for a train there either.
I can think of one more. US-23 just south of Exit 13 (Ida/Petersburg). Here's a Google Maps aerial where you can see by the tree lines where the old LS&MS (later NYC) line ran. Not sure when this one was removed, but it was gone by the early 1970s.
https://goo.gl/maps/3qNgGqPCvnkHqRZT8
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up. I haven't seen any other information about this anywhere else, so it's been kept pretty close to the vest, for some reason.
I've updated the M-30 route listing on the Michigan Highways website: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-030.html
Speaking of which, if you haven't stopped by lately, you may want to peruse the What's New? page: http://www.michiganhighways.org/whats_new.html . There's a bunch of new info on the US-31 Freeway completion in Berrien County, a literal crap-ton of new route maps have been added, a bunch of updates, and several new route listings have been migrated to the new format. As always, feedback is always welcomed and encouraged!
Hi all. I can confirm that jurisdiction for Meridian Rd from M-46 to Midland-Gratiot County Line Rd was transferred from the Saginaw County Road Commission to MDOT effective September 27, 2022, and that jurisdiction for Meridian Rd from Midland-Gratiot County Line Rd to M-20 was transferred from the Midland County Road Commission to MDOT effective October 12, 2022. This combined section of Meridian Rd will be signed as an extension of M-30 at some point. -Patrick Allen (MDOT)
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2022, 03:49:48 PM
Remember how long the US-10 shields remained up in Detroit for the Lodge Freeway? I think it was only about 15 or so years ago since the last one I can remember was removed and replaced with a M-10 shield. I saw a M-14 sign on Plymouth Road once too and I think that is actually still an unsigned state highway.
I can confirm that Plymouth Rd from Ann Arbor Rd to the Detroit city limit in Livonia and Redford Township is currently unsigned state trunkline (Old M-14). You can see that it is unsigned trunkline on the MDOT Truck Operators Map. I can also confirm that there were some M-14 route shields still on the ground until maybe ten years ago. However, I believe that they are all gone now. -Patrick Allen (MDOT)
Quote from: dpatrickallen on December 16, 2022, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up.
Hi all. I can confirm that jurisdiction for Meridian Rd from M-46 to Midland-Gratiot County Line Rd was transferred from the Saginaw County Road Commission to MDOT effective September 27, 2022, and that jurisdiction for Meridian Rd from Midland-Gratiot County Line Rd to M-20 was transferred from the Midland County Road Commission to MDOT effective October 12, 2022. This combined section of Meridian Rd will be signed as an extension of M-30 at some point. -Patrick Allen (MDOT)
Any information on when MDOT plans to rehabilitate the asphalt roadway and update signage? For obvious reasons, this hasn't shown up on any 5 year plans posted thus far. I also presume MDOT won't bother to post the M-30 designation until pending roadwork has been completed.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 16, 2022, 09:12:12 PM
Quote from: dpatrickallen on December 16, 2022, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: bessertc on December 06, 2022, 03:43:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else here has heard of this yet, but I just discovered the Midland and Saginaw Co. Road Commissions have been working together for well over a year to prepare the 14-ish miles of Meridian Rd from M-20 west of Midland to M-46 west of Merrill to be transferred (back) to state control as a southerly (re-)extension of M-30, 61 years after it was originally cancelled as a trunkline. The info I was able to gather is that this transfer is supposed to take place "in 2023" but things seem to be ramping up.
Hi all. I can confirm that jurisdiction for Meridian Rd from M-46 to Midland-Gratiot County Line Rd was transferred from the Saginaw County Road Commission to MDOT effective September 27, 2022, and that jurisdiction for Meridian Rd from Midland-Gratiot County Line Rd to M-20 was transferred from the Midland County Road Commission to MDOT effective October 12, 2022. This combined section of Meridian Rd will be signed as an extension of M-30 at some point. -Patrick Allen (MDOT)
Any information on when MDOT plans to rehabilitate the asphalt roadway and update signage? For obvious reasons, this hasn't shown up on any 5 year plans posted thus far. I also presume MDOT won't bother to post the M-30 designation until pending roadwork has been completed.
The MDOT Bay Region's plans and the timing are outside my direct knowledge, but it is my understanding that there are some improvements coming, including the complete replacement of two bridges in the former Midland County section. Last I knew, the Bay Region was also still discussing the timing of the extension of the M-30 signing.
Quote from: catch22 on December 16, 2022, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 15, 2022, 08:35:38 PM
Delay in Block on YouTube posted a video today discussing the short-lived at-grade railroad crossing on I-94 just west of M-99 near Albion, as well as another rail line that crossed at-grade both I-94 and US-23 just west of their interchange in Ann Arbor. Also featured: the at-grade railroad crossing of US-127 just north of M-57 in operation.
Thanks for posting that. I've driven over that US-127 crossing at least 100 times in the last 30 years, and never saw a train cross there.
I'm old enough to remember the crossings at the I-94/US-23 interchange, but never had to stop for a train there either.
I can think of one more. US-23 just south of Exit 13 (Ida/Petersburg). Here's a Google Maps aerial where you can see by the tree lines where the old LS&MS (later NYC) line ran. Not sure when this one was removed, but it was gone by the early 1970s.
https://goo.gl/maps/3qNgGqPCvnkHqRZT8
I drive the US-127 crossing at least 100 times a year, and I've never had to stop for a train crossing. I had to stop once when there was a signal malfunction but no train, and another time at night I saw train lights well down the track when I crossed.
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 18, 2022, 02:39:58 PM
I drive the US-127 crossing at least 100 times a year, and I've never had to stop for a train crossing. I had to stop once when there was a signal malfunction but no train, and another time at night I saw train lights well down the track when I crossed.
Yeah, I certainly never had to stop for that crossing. IIRC it's only used about once a week.
That crossing was kind of a big deal when the M-57 interchange was put in, because the whole point of the interchange was that it was going to remove the only remaining stoplight between Jackson and I-75 near Grayling. Apparently the railroad was going to abandon the line, and then it didn't. Does a rail line used once a week justify overpasses? Apparently not - since it's survived 20+ additional years without massive public outcry. It probably helps that, as railroad crossings go, it's pretty hard to miss.
In other US-127 news, the folks at MLive posted a video from a couple weeks ago about the diverging diamond in operation @ I-94 in Jackson.
Compared to the ones I've used in Wisconsin, this one feels a bit short and tight to navigate. Clearly, since West Ave south of the interchange is posted for only 30 mph, high-speed movements aren't appropriate here. But I imagine there's going to be a couple folks surprised by the new interchange that will end up in a ditch or driving the wrong way through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hZULyJsXo
Same here on the US-127 railroad crossing, never seen a train there before.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 18, 2022, 06:47:30 PM
In other US-127 news, the folks at MLive posted a video from a couple weeks ago about the diverging diamond in operation @ I-94 in Jackson.
Compared to the ones I've used in Wisconsin, this one feels a bit short and tight to navigate. Clearly, since West Ave south of the interchange is posted for only 30 mph, high-speed movements aren't appropriate here. But I imagine there's going to be a couple folks surprised by the new interchange that will end up in a ditch or driving the wrong way through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hZULyJsXo
So instead of removing the signal on NB US-127 and making it a freeway-to-freeway interchange to make US-127 a full, free-flowing freeway, they instead added a signal to what would otherwise be a freeway, along with several twists and turns to confuse people and cause more accidents. Sounds like another brilliant MDOT plan!
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 19, 2022, 12:46:21 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 18, 2022, 06:47:30 PM
In other US-127 news, the folks at MLive posted a video from a couple weeks ago about the diverging diamond in operation @ I-94 in Jackson.
Compared to the ones I've used in Wisconsin, this one feels a bit short and tight to navigate. Clearly, since West Ave south of the interchange is posted for only 30 mph, high-speed movements aren't appropriate here. But I imagine there's going to be a couple folks surprised by the new interchange that will end up in a ditch or driving the wrong way through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hZULyJsXo
So instead of removing the signal on NB US-127 and making it a freeway-to-freeway interchange to make US-127 a full, free-flowing freeway, they instead added a signal to what would otherwise be a freeway, along with several twists and turns to confuse people and cause more accidents. Sounds like another brilliant MDOT plan!
Yes, this is a much better example of MDOT's follies than the US 31 movement where at least the major movements were free-flowing.
Technically SB US 127 had a traffic light here before so it's not really a downgrade. But, it doesn't seem to be an improvement either.
I know it was probably a boondoggle, but this would never have happened had the I-73 project been constructed-the Interstate shield would have forced MDOT into making it free-flowing.
The I-73 project plan originally was to extend US-127 north of the east interchange with I-94, going around the north side of the prison complex, and merge into the existing US-127 alignment near Van Horn Rd. The section south of Van Horn Rd would be an extension of the US-127 business route.
If traffic demands ever require it, MDOT *could* build a flyover ramp from SBD US-127 to EBD I-94. And let's be fair - the previous interchange set the bar just high enough to trip over if you weren't paying attention.
Or if Michigan had the cash to do something more elaborate.
Been like pulling teeth getting just this third lane thru Jackson, much less the longer I-94 corridor. The traffic numbers probably told them they don't need a free-flow ramp from SB->EB. The DDI also slows down traffic entering the city compared to the old configuration.
And really, compared to getting stuck behind a truck on a loop ramp, the DDI will probably get ya on 94 faster.
Quote from: zzcarp on December 19, 2022, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 19, 2022, 12:46:21 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 18, 2022, 06:47:30 PM
In other US-127 news, the folks at MLive posted a video from a couple weeks ago about the diverging diamond in operation @ I-94 in Jackson.
Compared to the ones I've used in Wisconsin, this one feels a bit short and tight to navigate. Clearly, since West Ave south of the interchange is posted for only 30 mph, high-speed movements aren't appropriate here. But I imagine there's going to be a couple folks surprised by the new interchange that will end up in a ditch or driving the wrong way through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hZULyJsXo
So instead of removing the signal on NB US-127 and making it a freeway-to-freeway interchange to make US-127 a full, free-flowing freeway, they instead added a signal to what would otherwise be a freeway, along with several twists and turns to confuse people and cause more accidents. Sounds like another brilliant MDOT plan!
Yes, this is a much better example of MDOT's follies than the US 31 movement where at least the major movements were free-flowing.
Probably, but it's a little like saying Joseph Stalin was more of a humanitarian than Adolph Hitler.
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 19, 2022, 09:54:07 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on December 19, 2022, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 19, 2022, 12:46:21 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 18, 2022, 06:47:30 PM
In other US-127 news, the folks at MLive posted a video from a couple weeks ago about the diverging diamond in operation @ I-94 in Jackson.
Compared to the ones I've used in Wisconsin, this one feels a bit short and tight to navigate. Clearly, since West Ave south of the interchange is posted for only 30 mph, high-speed movements aren't appropriate here. But I imagine there's going to be a couple folks surprised by the new interchange that will end up in a ditch or driving the wrong way through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hZULyJsXo
So instead of removing the signal on NB US-127 and making it a freeway-to-freeway interchange to make US-127 a full, free-flowing freeway, they instead added a signal to what would otherwise be a freeway, along with several twists and turns to confuse people and cause more accidents. Sounds like another brilliant MDOT plan!
Yes, this is a much better example of MDOT's follies than the US 31 movement where at least the major movements were free-flowing.
Probably, but it's a little like saying Joseph Stalin was more of a humanitarian than Adolph Hitler.
WOW :wow:
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 19, 2022, 09:54:07 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on December 19, 2022, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 19, 2022, 12:46:21 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 18, 2022, 06:47:30 PM
In other US-127 news, the folks at MLive posted a video from a couple weeks ago about the diverging diamond in operation @ I-94 in Jackson.
Compared to the ones I've used in Wisconsin, this one feels a bit short and tight to navigate. Clearly, since West Ave south of the interchange is posted for only 30 mph, high-speed movements aren't appropriate here. But I imagine there's going to be a couple folks surprised by the new interchange that will end up in a ditch or driving the wrong way through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hZULyJsXo
So instead of removing the signal on NB US-127 and making it a freeway-to-freeway interchange to make US-127 a full, free-flowing freeway, they instead added a signal to what would otherwise be a freeway, along with several twists and turns to confuse people and cause more accidents. Sounds like another brilliant MDOT plan!
Yes, this is a much better example of MDOT's follies than the US 31 movement where at least the major movements were free-flowing.
Probably, but it's a little like saying Joseph Stalin was more of a humanitarian than Adolph Hitler.
wut
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 19, 2022, 12:55:59 PM
And really, compared to getting stuck behind a truck on a loop ramp, the DDI will probably get ya on 94 faster.
I will *not* miss the old SBD->EBD ramp, entering 80+ mph traffic at 20 mph stuck behind a loaded semi, hoping not to get rear-ended before I can get to the left lane and floor it around them. Definitely won't miss the lack of shoulders or the crumbling pavement either.
I-75 has reopened after being closed earlier due to several crashes between the Birch Run and Clio exits. Exits 136 and 131 respectively.
MSP is strongly requesting that drivers stay off I-94 from Battle Creek to the west. There is a closure between St Joe and Watervliet.
I-196 south of Holland is another one to avoid with closures in the South Haven area.
US-131 is closed south of Grand Rapids.
M-40 is closed south of Holland.
The Mackinac Bridge is under a wind escort. Motorists are asked to reduce their speed to 20 mph as they approach the bridge and be prepared to stop. Winds are currently gusting up to 50 mph in the Straits area.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 23, 2022, 07:41:21 PM
I-196 south of Holland is another one to avoid with closures in the South Haven area.
US-131 is closed south of Grand Rapids.
M-40 is closed south of Holland.
The Mackinac Bridge is under a wind escort. Motorists are asked to reduce their speed to 20 mph as they approach the bridge and be prepared to stop. Winds are currently gusting up to 50 mph in the Straits area.
Weather Channel has a guy in Holland and it looks brutal there.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 23, 2022, 07:44:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 23, 2022, 07:41:21 PM
I-196 south of Holland is another one to avoid with closures in the South Haven area.
US-131 is closed south of Grand Rapids.
M-40 is closed south of Holland.
The Mackinac Bridge is under a wind escort. Motorists are asked to reduce their speed to 20 mph as they approach the bridge and be prepared to stop. Winds are currently gusting up to 50 mph in the Straits area.
Weather Channel has a guy in Holland and it looks brutal there.
I don't know how I could be standing outside like that in this.
Northbound I-75 is now closed from the Clio exit to the Zilwaukee Bridge, a distance of about 22 miles.
Make that a complete shutdown of I-75 between Clio and Zilwaukee. It is closed from mile marker 131 to mile marker 154.
There is a video here of a MSP cruiser riding along I-75 for about 35 seconds and you can see the damage to the vehicles. I-75 has been reopened for awhile now but yesterday was closed for several hours due to the winter storm in various places which included a 23 mile stretch from Clio to Zilwaukee.
https://www.abc12.com/weather/michigan-state-police-stay-home-and-keep-large-vehicles-off-freeways/article_526f6c0e-82fc-11ed-9e03-af7fc0355878.html?fbclid=IwAR1jSyHYsx8LsiFABaZ2Fbi_RWJEAae01Ns4_e2jywS0ypOZ1_kM0WZX7n4
I-75 has been reopened in all the areas it was closed in since Friday morning.
SB I-75 at the Saginaw/Genesee County line is a slow go though as you come across the overpass from Saginaw County to Genesee County.
Yeah, it was definitely a brutal drive for the holidays, and I didn't drive out until Christmas Eve. I stayed south out of as much of the lake-effect snow belt as possible, taking the IN Toll Road to I-69 north. There were numerous storm chasers trolling the Lake Michigan shore, helping stranded drivers and showing the nasty weather conditions. Even out as far east as Lansing, the snow drifts built up quick if the plows didn't actively keep up.
Not road related but Genesee Valley Center in Flint is closed until further notice due to a water main break.
I noted some months ago in another thread that when Cobo Center in downtown Detroit was renamed TCF Center, MDOT sent out a crew to slap a "TCF" patch over the word "Cobo" on BGSs along I-75. I wondered what MDOT would do after Huntington Bank acquired TCF Bank and renamed the facility Huntington Place, as that definitely would not fit on a patch.
I drove through downtown a week or so ago and saw the answer: They made "Huntington Place" fit by eliminating the second control destination of "Civic Ctr." On southbound I-75 at I-375 (exit 51C), where "Civic Center" was the only control destination, the patch now says "DOWNTOWN."
Some quick and dirty photos from the recent I-94 and US-127 construction work around the north side of Jackson, taken yesterday.
https://imgur.com/a/T8rMjVs
Some observations:
- I-94 @ US-127 North has 3 through lanes EBD but only 2 through lanes WBD. The 3rd lane returns WBD as a weave-merge lane for Airport Rd. It would seem that MDOT does not envision an immediate need for 3 through WBD lanes beyond US-127.
- Hudson is punching well above its weight with equal billing as Detroit as a control city.
(https://i.imgur.com/qhkVZs0.png)
- Hudson does not receive any mention at all on SBD US-127. Simply Detroit.
(https://i.imgur.com/xcxCCdG.png)
^ I happened to drive to Battle Creek for a conference yesterday, and gave myself extra time to stop in Jackson and get my own photos of the signs at the new I-94/US-127/M-50 interchange. Whatever you think of the interchange itself, you have to be impressed with the amount and completeness of the new overhead signage. There is still a little sign work to be done.
Previously the only pull-thru sign was on the southbound side; now there is one in all four directions. Perhaps Hudson was added eastbound because the sign was going to be that wide anyway, so why not.
Nice to see that BL US-127 has been added to the eastbound exit; that was omitted previously.
The redundant Exit Only sign on southbound US-127 (cantilever support in your second photo) is from the original interchange signing and I'm guessing eventually it will be removed.
I happened to drive on SB I-75 the other day from Linwood to Saginaw. The Parrish Road overpass that had been half built over the summer is now complete but I'm not sure if it has been reopened to traffic yet or not.
Huge fire in Saginaw County last night. The old Ramada Inn at M-46 and I-75 burned down. It was this building right here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4146342,-83.8949768,3a,23.8y,20.13h,90.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOFbgVU7QiDi7Z6P74HgH6Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOFbgVU7QiDi7Z6P74HgH6Q%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D275.10825%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
MDOT will be hosting a public meeting on Jan. 31st to discuss the upcoming reconstruction and widening of U.S. 127I-496 between I-96 and I-496. Also, in 2025, U.S. 127 will be rebuilt between I-496 and I-69.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/01/17/mdot-public-meeting-jan-31-to-discuss-planned-us-127---i-496
On this week's Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation with Eric Morris, Michigan office lead for HNTB, the transportation consultant selected to complete a tolling study.
Some 35 states have at least one facility with tolling. But that number is a little deceiving because Michigan would be counted in that total since there is tolling on big bridges and/or international crossings but no tolling on non-bridge road segments.
Morris says the experts analyzed all 31 highways in Michigan for the study and determined that 14 could become toll roads, including large portions of Interstates 75, 94 and 96.
As Bridge Michigan reported, any tolls would take years to implement and require approval from the Legislature and the governor, among numerous hurdles.
Morris talks about the differences between various road user charge (RUC) options, including mileage-based user fees (MBUF) and tolling and how pilot programs seeking people to participate have been voluntary, so far, including one in Oregon that has generated a lot of discussion.
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1374205/12086503-study-examines-feasibility-of-tolling-some-michigan-roads
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 22, 2023, 11:59:26 AM
Morris says the experts analyzed all 31 highways in Michigan for the study and determined that 14 could become toll roads, including large portions of Interstates 75, 94 and 96.
Those roads were built with Federal Funds by Eisenhower and Kennedy for all of us, how can these people suddenly start charging money on traditional free roads? Weren't toll roads supposed to be routes that couldn't get built any other way due to lack of funding? Even the scam we were sold then was that stuff like the Tri-State Tollway was supposed to be temporary until they paid the bonds off, last I drove it they still charge and made it so unfriendly for out of state drivers by not even having a single cash or credit card option for those who aren't part of the local club with transponders. They ought to pass a federal law requiring all tollways and toll bridges to be forced to have cash tollbooths available for non locals and not over charge them as well. Those jerks just did the same to the decades old free I 65 crossing over the Ohio river. The crooked elites looting the country probably have their eyes set on selling off our interstates and bridges to the CCP and Gulf Oil Princes next.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on January 26, 2023, 08:35:02 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 22, 2023, 11:59:26 AM
Morris says the experts analyzed all 31 highways in Michigan for the study and determined that 14 could become toll roads, including large portions of Interstates 75, 94 and 96.
Those roads were built with Federal Funds by Eisenhower and Kennedy for all of us, how can these people suddenly start charging money on traditional free roads? Weren't toll roads supposed to be routes that couldn't get built any other way due to lack of funding? Even the scam we were sold then was that stuff like the Tri-State Tollway was supposed to be temporary until they paid the bonds off, last I drove it they still charge and made it so unfriendly for out of state drivers by not even having a single cash or credit card option for those who aren't part of the local club with transponders. They ought to pass a federal law requiring all tollways and toll bridges to be forced to have cash tollbooths available for non locals and not over charge them as well. Those jerks just did the same to the decades old free I 65 crossing over the Ohio river. The crooked elites looting the country probably have their eyes set on selling off our interstates and bridges to the CCP and Gulf Oil Princes next.
Well said. The problem is the government theft and waste. Whether it's the politicians making bank, or the insane pension packages for government employees. If the money wasn't stolen or wasted, we wouldn't have as much trouble maintaining our highways and bridges.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on January 26, 2023, 08:35:02 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 22, 2023, 11:59:26 AM
Morris says the experts analyzed all 31 highways in Michigan for the study and determined that 14 could become toll roads, including large portions of Interstates 75, 94 and 96.
Those roads were built with Federal Funds by Eisenhower and Kennedy for all of us, how can these people suddenly start charging money on traditional free roads? Weren't toll roads supposed to be routes that couldn't get built any other way due to lack of funding? Even the scam we were sold then was that stuff like the Tri-State Tollway was supposed to be temporary until they paid the bonds off, last I drove it they still charge and made it so unfriendly for out of state drivers by not even having a single cash or credit card option for those who aren't part of the local club with transponders. They ought to pass a federal law requiring all tollways and toll bridges to be forced to have cash tollbooths available for non locals and not over charge them as well. Those jerks just did the same to the decades old free I 65 crossing over the Ohio river. The crooked elites looting the country probably have their eyes set on selling off our interstates and bridges to the CCP and Gulf Oil Princes next.
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.
You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.
You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law
should be changed to protect cash transactions.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.
You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.
Absolutely not. It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 08:25:08 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.
You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.
Absolutely not. It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.
There is absolutely zero expense with cash. Credit cards charge both ways.
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 26, 2023, 08:48:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 08:25:08 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.
You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.
Absolutely not. It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.
There is absolutely zero expense with cash. Credit cards charge both ways.
Zero expense? You have to count it, secure it, and take it to the bank. None of that is free. On top of that, it's a lot riskier. It makes you vulnerable to crime both internally and externally.
In the case of the Tollway, you have to employ people to do all of that. It's a lot cheaper to pay or pass along credit fees than pay those expenses.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 09:31:59 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 26, 2023, 08:48:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 08:25:08 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.
You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.
Absolutely not. It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.
There is absolutely zero expense with cash. Credit cards charge both ways.
Zero expense? You have to count it, secure it, and take it to the bank. None of that is free. On top of that, it's a lot riskier. It makes you vulnerable to crime both internally and externally.
In the case of the Tollway, you have to employ people to do all of that. It's a lot cheaper to pay or pass along credit fees than pay those expenses.
Usually a salaried manager does those duties. You have to add up and account credit card receipts too, and then the bank charges you through the nose for each credit card transaction. Now maybe it's different for a tollway with transponders and such, but I don't think that technology comes cheaply. At any rate, there is virtually no expense with cash. Adding it up and taking it to the bank doesn't take that long, and as already stated it's usually done by a salaried (non-hourly) manager. I've managed several gas stations in the past and cash is much preferred. Many gas stations charge more for credit purchases to offset bank charges.
^ Usually transponder rates are the lowest because it's an effortless process to simply post the transaction to the transponder account.
Toll-by-plate, on the other hand, requires more work behind the scenes, and is often why it's a higher rate.
This country needs to make all toll passes interoperable so the amount of toll-by-plate transactions, particularly for out of state drivers, goes significantly down.
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 26, 2023, 11:39:42 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 09:31:59 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 26, 2023, 08:48:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 08:25:08 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 26, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 26, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use.
Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.
This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.
You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.
Absolutely not. It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.
There is absolutely zero expense with cash. Credit cards charge both ways.
Zero expense? You have to count it, secure it, and take it to the bank. None of that is free. On top of that, it's a lot riskier. It makes you vulnerable to crime both internally and externally.
In the case of the Tollway, you have to employ people to do all of that. It's a lot cheaper to pay or pass along credit fees than pay those expenses.
Usually a salaried manager does those duties. You have to add up and account credit card receipts too, and then the bank charges you through the nose for each credit card transaction. Now maybe it's different for a tollway with transponders and such, but I don't think that technology comes cheaply. At any rate, there is virtually no expense with cash. Adding it up and taking it to the bank doesn't take that long, and as already stated it's usually done by a salaried (non-hourly) manager. I've managed several gas stations in the past and cash is much preferred. Many gas stations charge more for credit purchases to offset bank charges.
You keep saying this, but the bolded is false. I don't care if it is a "salaried manager" that does some of these things, there is still a cost involved to do those things. And who adds up credit card receipts these days? This is done automatically with current POS systems.
Regardless, I understand why some businesses would prefer cash. And that's absolutely fine. But I understand completely why some want nothing to do with it, and that's fine too. There shouldn't be a law mandating businesses accept cash.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 27, 2023, 09:07:55 AMThere shouldn't be a law mandating businesses accept cash.
Massachusetts has had one since 1978.
Quote from: 1 on January 27, 2023, 09:10:03 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 27, 2023, 09:07:55 AMThere shouldn't be a law mandating businesses accept cash.
Massachusetts has had one since 1978.
I think it should be appealed, but I don't live there so I doubt I will have much influence on the matter.
The tolltakers,and those working between them and the banking system, were all paid at union scale, too. As a non-local, I do like having options, too, such as the toll facility running the plates and mailing a bill for the accrued tolls plus a REASONABLE handling fee.
Mike
Balancing end-of day cash receipts to cash on hand at the end of a shift has been increasingly harder to do -- especially nowadays when many smaller retailers either round change to the nearest nickel (sometimes restaurants now round change to the nearest dollar), or the occasions where if a cash total comes to $1.03, and if you offer them $2.00, they just say, "keep the other dollar, I got it".
At least with credit or debit, the total is what they get, and the balancing us pretty much a snap.
What about privacy for the consumer? Why do I have to tell a company or bank about every little dollar I spend? So they can sell my data and use it for advertising? So the government can accuse me of doing something they don't like?
I'm not trying to say I use cash as much as I can, I don't. But I should have the option. I should be able to give my kid $10 and ask him to buy me something or buy himself something without giving him access to my entire bank account.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 28, 2023, 11:25:57 AM
What about privacy for the consumer? Why do I have to tell a company or bank about every little dollar I spend? So they can sell my data and use it for advertising? So the government can accuse me of doing something they don't like?
I'm not trying to say I use cash as much as I can, I don't. But I should have the option. I should be able to give my kid $10 and ask him to buy me something or buy himself something without giving him access to my entire bank account.
Do you actually have that problem? 99% of the places I shop accept cash.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 28, 2023, 11:25:57 AM
What about privacy for the consumer? Why do I have to tell a company or bank about every little dollar I spend? So they can sell my data and use it for advertising? So the government can accuse me of doing something they don't like?
I'm not trying to say I use cash as much as I can, I don't. But I should have the option. I should be able to give my kid $10 and ask him to buy me something or buy himself something without giving him access to my entire bank account.
There is an option. It's called "not buying that particular something" or "buying something else." You might not like that option, but it is in fact an option.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 28, 2023, 11:32:04 AM
Do you actually have that problem? 99% of the places I shop accept cash.
It's not so much that I have the problem now, but that I'll have the problem within the next several years.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 28, 2023, 11:36:15 AM
There is an option. It's called "not buying that particular something" or "buying something else." You might not like that option, but it is in fact an option.
It isn't about that. It's about the principle of cash being accepted in general. And I echo my statement above: I think cash will become almost impossible, if not completely impossible to use in the not-so-distant future.
I don't think you understand how much of our economy is driven by cash. The idea that it will be nearly impossible to conduct transactions with cash in the near future is hyperbolic.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 28, 2023, 12:23:44 PM
I don't think you understand how much of our economy is driven by cash. The idea that it will be nearly impossible to conduct transactions with cash in the near future is hyperbolic.
I would love to be proved wrong. I guess come back to this thread in 2030 and see where things are at. Unless the Internet has gone down and there's no such thing as credit cards.
When I was in London, quite a lot of places didn't accept cash. Even the ones that I thought had to (sit-down restaurants, where the concept of legal tender is supposed to exist since you get your meal first and pay later).
(Paris wasn't like this.)
Quote from: 1 on January 28, 2023, 01:34:07 PM
When I was in London, quite a lot of places didn't accept cash. Even the ones that I thought had to (sit-down restaurants, where the concept of legal tender is supposed to exist since you get your meal first and pay later).
(Paris wasn't like this.)
Again, that's not what "legal tender" means.
How about I get everyone riled up with a new topic? On March 3rd, MDOT will be letting a contract for rehab and flex route extension on US-23 between M-36 and I-96. Given the late letting, I'm guessing there will be some prep work later this year with the bulk of the work happening in 2024 and 2025.
(https://i.imgur.com/k5bQWs3.jpg)
No need to guess. It's in the 5-year Transportation Plan:
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/programs/planning/five-year-transportation-program
They are scheduling this stretch for completion in 2025.
Was noticing today that I-196 north of its split with US 31 is signed E-W instead of N-S like its entire concurrency with US 31 is.
https://goo.gl/maps/Pnb7LvT5GyhfWqUC6
Plus GSV captured the left US 31 exit being closed NB and reversed for SB traffic on US 31 to use the left NB lane on I-196. MDOT sends US 31 NB detour via a lengthy circle as the detour is not via M-40, but Adams Street exit to BL I-196 WB and then back to US 31.
Strange signing and much stranger detour for US 31 NB.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 29, 2023, 07:49:49 PM
Was noticing today that I-196 north of its split with US 31 is signed E-W instead of N-S like its entire concurrency with US 31 is.
https://goo.gl/maps/Pnb7LvT5GyhfWqUC6
Plus GSV captured the left US 31 exit being closed NB and reversed for SB traffic on US 31 to use the left NB lane on I-196. MDOT sends US 31 NB detour via a lengthy circle as the detour is not via M-40, but Adams Street exit to BL I-196 WB and then back to US 31.
Strange signing and much stranger detour for US 31 NB.
The NORTH/EAST and WEST/SOUTH directional change has always been at that interchange.
Is the interchange being reconfigured or is it just something simple as reconstructing and resurfacing the roadbed? There really is not anything wrong with the interchange as it currently is. Just asking because of the large mound of dirt next to the I-196 overpass of US 31 NB.
Quote from: thenetwork on January 27, 2023, 09:05:29 PM
Balancing end-of day cash receipts to cash on hand at the end of a shift has been increasingly harder to do -- especially nowadays when many smaller retailers either round change to the nearest nickel (sometimes restaurants now round change to the nearest dollar), or the occasions where if a cash total comes to $1.03, and if you offer them $2.00, they just say, "keep the other dollar, I got it".
At least with credit or debit, the total is what they get, and the balancing us pretty much a snap.
Probably because most people under the age of, oh say, 40 don't know how to do simple math.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 29, 2023, 07:49:49 PM
Was noticing today that I-196 north of its split with US 31 is signed E-W instead of N-S like its entire concurrency with US 31 is.
https://goo.gl/maps/Pnb7LvT5GyhfWqUC6
Plus GSV captured the left US 31 exit being closed NB and reversed for SB traffic on US 31 to use the left NB lane on I-196. MDOT sends US 31 NB detour via a lengthy circle as the detour is not via M-40, but Adams Street exit to BL I-196 WB and then back to US 31.
Strange signing and much stranger detour for US 31 NB.
I-196 has always been signed E-W between US-31 and I-96.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 28, 2023, 04:19:53 PM
How about I get everyone riled up with a new topic? On March 3rd, MDOT will be letting a contract for rehab and flex route extension on US-23 between M-36 and I-96. Given the late letting, I'm guessing there will be some prep work later this year with the bulk of the work happening in 2024 and 2025.
(https://i.imgur.com/k5bQWs3.jpg)
Sounds to me like MDOT let one again! :)
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 29, 2023, 11:06:42 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 29, 2023, 07:49:49 PM
Was noticing today that I-196 north of its split with US 31 is signed E-W instead of N-S like its entire concurrency with US 31 is.
https://goo.gl/maps/Pnb7LvT5GyhfWqUC6
Plus GSV captured the left US 31 exit being closed NB and reversed for SB traffic on US 31 to use the left NB lane on I-196. MDOT sends US 31 NB detour via a lengthy circle as the detour is not via M-40, but Adams Street exit to BL I-196 WB and then back to US 31.
Strange signing and much stranger detour for US 31 NB.
I-196 has always been signed E-W between US-31 and I-96.
Didn't say it wasn't. Just pointing out it's being odd considering it's not a beltway.
Then again I-69 is the same at Lansing. It changes from N-S to E-W there too.
https://goo.gl/maps/DWaWozSemiFnr6H98
Are these enhanced mile markers accurate? If these are correct then the duplex with I-196 would be only 20 miles then in which Exit 44 on I-196 would be out of synch.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2023, 02:34:33 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/DWaWozSemiFnr6H98
Are these enhanced mile markers accurate? If these are correct then the duplex with I-196 would be only 20 miles then in which Exit 44 on I-196 would be out of synch.
Not from the state line they're not. That's the mileage from the southern end of I-196.
The SB Lodge has reopened at Grand Blvd. There was a shooting this afternoon.
Quote from: amroad17 on January 29, 2023, 10:18:24 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 29, 2023, 07:49:49 PM
Was noticing today that I-196 north of its split with US 31 is signed E-W instead of N-S like its entire concurrency with US 31 is.
https://goo.gl/maps/Pnb7LvT5GyhfWqUC6 (https://goo.gl/maps/Pnb7LvT5GyhfWqUC6)
Plus GSV captured the left US 31 exit being closed NB and reversed for SB traffic on US 31 to use the left NB lane on I-196. MDOT sends US 31 NB detour via a lengthy circle as the detour is not via M-40, but Adams Street exit to BL I-196 WB and then back to US 31.
Strange signing and much stranger detour for US 31 NB.
The NORTH/EAST and WEST/SOUTH directional change has always been at that interchange.
Is the interchange being reconfigured or is it just something simple as reconstructing and resurfacing the roadbed? There really is not anything wrong with the interchange as it currently is. Just asking because of the large mound of dirt next to the I-196 overpass of US 31 NB.
No, they were accommodating a rebuild of the I-94 NB roadway near Benton Harbor between Napier Rd (former US-31) and east of the I-196/US-31 interchange while they replaced the Bus I-94 interchange with a US-31/Bus I-94 interchange. That roadwork is basically complete, with mainly landscaping stuff that might be left this spring.
Speaking of Benton Harbor, there's some great Street View coverage of the construction in the area! Catch the SBD/WBD side of I-94 and you see the construction state in Sep. 2022 while both directions were on the SBD/WBD side still. Select NBD/EBD, and you see Oct. 2022 when traffic was back on their respective sides and they were wrapping up paving the ramps to/from US-31/Bus I-94.
https://goo.gl/maps/W71XwdvNi3Q12ft26 (https://goo.gl/maps/W71XwdvNi3Q12ft26)
The Michigan Legislature approved $25 million to rebuild the I-96/Fruit Ridge Ave Interchange....
QuoteFirst, Michigan Department of Transportation Grand Region Engineer Erick Kind talks about how the interchange at I-96 and Fruit Ridge Avenue in Walker, northwest of Grand Rapids, has been outdated and in need of improvement for several years. As with all transportation infrastructure in Michigan, decades-long underinvestment has made the improvements cost-prohibitive, despite the growing manufacturing, agricultural, service industry, and community needs in the corridor.
The interchange is categorized as functionally obsolete and in need of replacement. Fruit Ridge Avenue has five lanes north and four lanes to the south of the bridge over I-96, but the bridge has only two lanes, which presents congestion and safety challenges. In the podcast's second segment, State Rep. Carol Glanville, who helped secure the $25 million for the project, talks about her advocacy and success helping others understand why it's a priority not just for the city of Walker but the broader region. She also explains how expanding the Fruit Ridge Avenue bridge will allow for nonmotorized lanes and connections between trails.
https://orionontv.org/2023/01/25-million-for-a-key-west-michigan-freeway-interchange/
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2023, 08:49:48 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on January 29, 2023, 10:18:24 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 29, 2023, 07:49:49 PM
Was noticing today that I-196 north of its split with US 31 is signed E-W instead of N-S like its entire concurrency with US 31 is.
https://goo.gl/maps/Pnb7LvT5GyhfWqUC6 (https://goo.gl/maps/Pnb7LvT5GyhfWqUC6)
Plus GSV captured the left US 31 exit being closed NB and reversed for SB traffic on US 31 to use the left NB lane on I-196. MDOT sends US 31 NB detour via a lengthy circle as the detour is not via M-40, but Adams Street exit to BL I-196 WB and then back to US 31.
Strange signing and much stranger detour for US 31 NB.
The NORTH/EAST and WEST/SOUTH directional change has always been at that interchange.
Is the interchange being reconfigured or is it just something simple as reconstructing and resurfacing the roadbed? There really is not anything wrong with the interchange as it currently is. Just asking because of the large mound of dirt next to the I-196 overpass of US 31 NB.
No, they were accommodating a rebuild of the I-94 NB roadway near Benton Harbor between Napier Rd (former US-31) and east of the I-196/US-31 interchange while they replaced the Bus I-94 interchange with a US-31/Bus I-94 interchange. That roadwork is basically complete, with mainly landscaping stuff that might be left this spring.
I believe what roadman65 was referring to is the rebuild of the US-31 freeway segment pavement between I-196 and Central Avenue on the south side of Holland. Nbd was detoured; nbd side was reconstructed first and then sbd traffic was maintained on the nbd side while sbd side was reconstructed. For that second phase, there was insufficient room for a crossover back to the sbd side before merging into 196, so that traffic was kept on the left side of nbd 196 and then the crossover was a bit farther south. The interchange was not reconfigured.
My guess is that M-40 was not the designated detour because of truck restrictions, particularly the 90-degree turn from 49th Street to Lincoln Avenue. MDOT usually does not post separate car and truck detours; one detour is posted that accommodates both.
Rust Avenue (M-46) in Saginaw is down to one lane in each direction between Sheridan and Washington (M-13). This is on a stretch that they just repaved in the summer of 2021. Not sure what they are doing this time of the year out there.
I would have just used M-40 anyway. That right turn from 48th to Lincoln is no different than any other right turn. I've never had a problem there.
I-94 in Detroit will be closed this weekend so the Cass Avenue bridge can be demolished.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/02/01/bridge-demolition-requires-closing-a-portion-of-i-94-in-detroit-this-weekend
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2023, 02:34:33 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/DWaWozSemiFnr6H98
Are these enhanced mile markers accurate? If these are correct then the duplex with I-196 would be only 20 miles then in which Exit 44 on I-196 would be out of synch.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 30, 2023, 07:16:35 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2023, 02:34:33 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/DWaWozSemiFnr6H98
Are these enhanced mile markers accurate? If these are correct then the duplex with I-196 would be only 20 miles then in which Exit 44 on I-196 would be out of synch.
Not from the state line they're not. That's the mileage from the southern end of I-196.
Never saw that before, but I never go that way. Did they continue using I-196 mileage just on the short freeway portion after US-31 splits off toward Holland? Why would they do that?
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 01, 2023, 07:57:28 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2023, 02:34:33 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/DWaWozSemiFnr6H98
Are these enhanced mile markers accurate? If these are correct then the duplex with I-196 would be only 20 miles then in which Exit 44 on I-196 would be out of synch.
Not from the state line they're not. That's the mileage from the southern end of I-196.
Never saw that before, but I never go that way. Did they continue using I-196 mileage just on the short freeway portion after US-31 splits off toward Holland? Why would they do that?
[/quote]
Odd, because the exit numbering starting at the M-104 exit (which coincidentally is Exit 104) is spot on.
The milemarkers starting from the I-196 interchange should start at 76 or so, making the M-40 exit 77 or 78
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 01, 2023, 08:34:53 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 01, 2023, 07:57:28 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 30, 2023, 07:16:35 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2023, 02:34:33 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/DWaWozSemiFnr6H98
Are these enhanced mile markers accurate? If these are correct then the duplex with I-196 would be only 20 miles then in which Exit 44 on I-196 would be out of synch.
Not from the state line they're not. That's the mileage from the southern end of I-196.
Never saw that before, but I never go that way. Did they continue using I-196 mileage just on the short freeway portion after US-31 splits off toward Holland? Why would they do that?
Odd, because the exit numbering starting at the M-104 exit (which coincidentally is Exit 104) is spot on.
The milemarkers starting from the I-196 interchange should start at 76 or so, making the M-40 exit 77 or 78
I suppose restarting the milemarkers from 0 at I-196 made sense because the routing of the "missing gap" south of there was still up in the air at the time. Why they got reset again at M-104, I dunno.
By the way, with US-31's current routing, the exit at M-104 actually should be Exit 100.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 01, 2023, 07:57:28 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2023, 02:34:33 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/DWaWozSemiFnr6H98
Are these enhanced mile markers accurate? If these are correct then the duplex with I-196 would be only 20 miles then in which Exit 44 on I-196 would be out of synch.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 30, 2023, 07:16:35 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2023, 02:34:33 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/DWaWozSemiFnr6H98
Are these enhanced mile markers accurate? If these are correct then the duplex with I-196 would be only 20 miles then in which Exit 44 on I-196 would be out of synch.
Not from the state line they're not. That's the mileage from the southern end of I-196.
Never saw that before, but I never go that way. Did they continue using I-196 mileage just on the short freeway portion after US-31 splits off toward Holland? Why would they do that?
For some reason the mileage starts over when US-31 is concurrent with I-196. I don't think it should as US-31 is at mile 81 not 47 at that location. I saw someone mention the M-104 exit which is exit 104 in Ferrysburg. Strange because on the wikipedia page for US-31 in Michigan the mileage they have stops at Napier Avenue for some reason. I think the mileage list for US-31 needs to be updated.
I could see I-94, US-23 and I-75 south of 275 being feasible for tolls. I don't think M-14 would work as a toll road.
Toll roads in Michigan? Study shows where they might workQuoteThe consultants used 21 criteria to review the feasibility of assessing mileage-based tolls on all 1,922 miles of limited-access highways. Of the 31 routes, 17 were screened out, partly to avoid affecting low-income communities and to have self-supporting toll roads.
The 14 remaining corridors, encompassing 1,156 miles, were broken into three tiers based on their readiness for tolling: five to seven years for 545 miles, seven to 14 years for 232 miles and 15 or more years for 379 miles.
Tier 1, the nearer-term scenario that is based on tolls starting in 2028, includes:
all of Interstate 275 in metro Detroit.
all of I-696.
I-75 between the Ohio border and I-275 south of Detroit, and between I-695 north of Saginaw and U.S. 127 north of Higgins Lake.
I-94 between the Indiana border and U.S. 24 in Detroit.
I-69 between Marshall and Flint.
I-196 between I-94 north of St. Joseph and M-6 southwest of Grand Rapids.
M-14 between I-94 southwest of Ann Arbor and the M-14/U.S. 23 split north of Ann Arbor.[/li][/list]
[
Such a system would generate $1.3 billion in revenue annually by 2032 if the tolling rate was 6 cents a mile for passenger cars and 24 cents per mile for commercial trucks. The current transportation budget is $6.1 billion.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/toll-roads-michigan-study-shows-where-they-might-work
Quote from: afguy on February 07, 2023, 07:35:27 PM
I could see I-94, US-23 and I-75 south of 275 being feasible for tolls. I don't think M-14 would work as a toll road.
Toll roads in Michigan? Study shows where they might work
QuoteThe consultants used 21 criteria to review the feasibility of assessing mileage-based tolls on all 1,922 miles of limited-access highways. Of the 31 routes, 17 were screened out, partly to avoid affecting low-income communities and to have self-supporting toll roads.
The 14 remaining corridors, encompassing 1,156 miles, were broken into three tiers based on their readiness for tolling: five to seven years for 545 miles, seven to 14 years for 232 miles and 15 or more years for 379 miles.
Tier 1, the nearer-term scenario that is based on tolls starting in 2028, includes:
all of Interstate 275 in metro Detroit.
all of I-696.
I-75 between the Ohio border and I-275 south of Detroit, and between I-695 north of Saginaw and U.S. 127 north of Higgins Lake.
I-94 between the Indiana border and U.S. 24 in Detroit.
I-69 between Marshall and Flint.
I-196 between I-94 north of St. Joseph and M-6 southwest of Grand Rapids.
M-14 between I-94 southwest of Ann Arbor and the M-14/U.S. 23 split north of Ann Arbor.[/li][/list]
[
Such a system would generate $1.3 billion in revenue annually by 2032 if the tolling rate was 6 cents a mile for passenger cars and 24 cents per mile for commercial trucks. The current transportation budget is $6.1 billion.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/toll-roads-michigan-study-shows-where-they-might-work
Good lord, why not just toll every mile of freeway!
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 02:52:07 PM
Quote from: afguy on February 07, 2023, 07:35:27 PM
I could see I-94, US-23 and I-75 south of 275 being feasible for tolls. I don't think M-14 would work as a toll road.
Toll roads in Michigan? Study shows where they might work
QuoteThe consultants used 21 criteria to review the feasibility of assessing mileage-based tolls on all 1,922 miles of limited-access highways. Of the 31 routes, 17 were screened out, partly to avoid affecting low-income communities and to have self-supporting toll roads.
The 14 remaining corridors, encompassing 1,156 miles, were broken into three tiers based on their readiness for tolling: five to seven years for 545 miles, seven to 14 years for 232 miles and 15 or more years for 379 miles.
Tier 1, the nearer-term scenario that is based on tolls starting in 2028, includes:
all of Interstate 275 in metro Detroit.
all of I-696.
I-75 between the Ohio border and I-275 south of Detroit, and between I-695 north of Saginaw and U.S. 127 north of Higgins Lake.
I-94 between the Indiana border and U.S. 24 in Detroit.
I-69 between Marshall and Flint.
I-196 between I-94 north of St. Joseph and M-6 southwest of Grand Rapids.
M-14 between I-94 southwest of Ann Arbor and the M-14/U.S. 23 split north of Ann Arbor.[/li][/list]
[
Such a system would generate $1.3 billion in revenue annually by 2032 if the tolling rate was 6 cents a mile for passenger cars and 24 cents per mile for commercial trucks. The current transportation budget is $6.1 billion.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/toll-roads-michigan-study-shows-where-they-might-work
Good lord, why not just toll every mile of freeway!
And of course you have to pay for a subscription to read about future tolls! D'oh!
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 02:52:07 PM
Quote from: afguy on February 07, 2023, 07:35:27 PM
I could see I-94, US-23 and I-75 south of 275 being feasible for tolls. I don't think M-14 would work as a toll road.
Toll roads in Michigan? Study shows where they might work
QuoteThe consultants used 21 criteria to review the feasibility of assessing mileage-based tolls on all 1,922 miles of limited-access highways. Of the 31 routes, 17 were screened out, partly to avoid affecting low-income communities and to have self-supporting toll roads.
The 14 remaining corridors, encompassing 1,156 miles, were broken into three tiers based on their readiness for tolling: five to seven years for 545 miles, seven to 14 years for 232 miles and 15 or more years for 379 miles.
Tier 1, the nearer-term scenario that is based on tolls starting in 2028, includes:
all of Interstate 275 in metro Detroit.
all of I-696.
I-75 between the Ohio border and I-275 south of Detroit, and between I-695 north of Saginaw and U.S. 127 north of Higgins Lake.
I-94 between the Indiana border and U.S. 24 in Detroit.
I-69 between Marshall and Flint.
I-196 between I-94 north of St. Joseph and M-6 southwest of Grand Rapids.
M-14 between I-94 southwest of Ann Arbor and the M-14/U.S. 23 split north of Ann Arbor.[/li][/list]
[
Such a system would generate $1.3 billion in revenue annually by 2032 if the tolling rate was 6 cents a mile for passenger cars and 24 cents per mile for commercial trucks. The current transportation budget is $6.1 billion.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/toll-roads-michigan-study-shows-where-they-might-work
Good lord, why not just toll every mile of freeway!
And of course you have to pay for a subscription to read about future tolls! D'oh!
And I'd really like to know more about this I-695 north of Saginaw! :)
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 02:57:16 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 02:52:07 PM
Quote from: afguy on February 07, 2023, 07:35:27 PM
I could see I-94, US-23 and I-75 south of 275 being feasible for tolls. I don't think M-14 would work as a toll road.
Toll roads in Michigan? Study shows where they might work
QuoteThe consultants used 21 criteria to review the feasibility of assessing mileage-based tolls on all 1,922 miles of limited-access highways. Of the 31 routes, 17 were screened out, partly to avoid affecting low-income communities and to have self-supporting toll roads.
The 14 remaining corridors, encompassing 1,156 miles, were broken into three tiers based on their readiness for tolling: five to seven years for 545 miles, seven to 14 years for 232 miles and 15 or more years for 379 miles.
Tier 1, the nearer-term scenario that is based on tolls starting in 2028, includes:
all of Interstate 275 in metro Detroit.
all of I-696.
I-75 between the Ohio border and I-275 south of Detroit, and between I-695 north of Saginaw and U.S. 127 north of Higgins Lake.
I-94 between the Indiana border and U.S. 24 in Detroit.
I-69 between Marshall and Flint.
I-196 between I-94 north of St. Joseph and M-6 southwest of Grand Rapids.
M-14 between I-94 southwest of Ann Arbor and the M-14/U.S. 23 split north of Ann Arbor.[/li][/list]
[
Such a system would generate $1.3 billion in revenue annually by 2032 if the tolling rate was 6 cents a mile for passenger cars and 24 cents per mile for commercial trucks. The current transportation budget is $6.1 billion.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/toll-roads-michigan-study-shows-where-they-might-work
Good lord, why not just toll every mile of freeway!
And of course you have to pay for a subscription to read about future tolls! D'oh!
And I'd really like to know more about this I-695 north of Saginaw! :)
Probably meant I-675 but still it's a stupid idea that will probably never happen.
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:11:51 PM
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 10:59:30 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:11:51 PM
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.
Citation needed
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 09, 2023, 01:48:00 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 10:59:30 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:11:51 PM
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.
Citation needed
See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 09, 2023, 04:32:00 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 09, 2023, 01:48:00 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 10:59:30 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:11:51 PM
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.
Citation needed
See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.
I'm not seeing any evidence of that, since a lot of people have to pay tolls to get to or around Michigan (Ohio Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road, Mackinac Bridge, toll bridges between MI and Canada...).
And then, even without tolls, you still have to drive a considerable ways to get to touristy areas in the north (Sleeping Dunes, Mackinac Island, Painted Rocks and the other shore communities).
Reminds me of Flint and Autoworld...
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 09, 2023, 04:32:00 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 09, 2023, 01:48:00 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 10:59:30 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:11:51 PM
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.
Citation needed
See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.
Citation still needed
Quote from: Rothman on February 09, 2023, 09:15:46 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 09, 2023, 04:32:00 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 09, 2023, 01:48:00 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 10:59:30 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:11:51 PM
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.
Citation needed
See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.
I'm not seeing any evidence of that, since a lot of people have to pay tolls to get to or around Michigan (Ohio Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road, Mackinac Bridge, toll bridges between MI and Canada...).
And then, even without tolls, you still have to drive a considerable ways to get to touristy areas in the north (Sleeping Dunes, Mackinac Island, Painted Rocks and the other shore communities).
Reminds me of Flint and Autoworld...
And yet a lot of people don't have to pay tolls coming from other states. Yeah, if you cross an international border, you're going to have to pay a small toll, just like you have to do anywhere between Minnesota and extreme eastern New York, so what's your point? Michiganders can vacation in the state and not have to pay any tolls other than a small fee to cross The Mackinac Bridge. People coming up through Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin likely won't have to pay any tolls in those states, but even if they do, they won't pay any tolls in Michigan other than to cross The Big Mac.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 09, 2023, 09:52:01 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 09, 2023, 04:32:00 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 09, 2023, 01:48:00 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 10:59:30 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:11:51 PM
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.
Citation needed
See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.
Citation still needed
No, I don't need any citation. This is not Wikipedia. It's a place to express opinions and that's what I'm doing. And I don't see any official title such as "Forum Tyrant" associated with you.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 09, 2023, 05:59:46 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 09, 2023, 09:15:46 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 09, 2023, 04:32:00 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 09, 2023, 01:48:00 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 08, 2023, 10:59:30 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:11:51 PM
Proposing to charge tolls are a hard sell to states that historically have not had any toll roads.
Part of the reason that Michigan is such a tourist attraction is because of the lack of having to pay tolls.
Citation needed
See common sense, logic and rational thought processes.
I'm not seeing any evidence of that, since a lot of people have to pay tolls to get to or around Michigan (Ohio Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road, Mackinac Bridge, toll bridges between MI and Canada...).
And then, even without tolls, you still have to drive a considerable ways to get to touristy areas in the north (Sleeping Dunes, Mackinac Island, Painted Rocks and the other shore communities).
Reminds me of Flint and Autoworld...
And yet a lot of people don't have to pay tolls coming from other states. Yeah, if you cross an international border, you're going to have to pay a small toll, just like you have to do anywhere between Minnesota and extreme eastern New York, so what's your point? Michiganders can vacation in the state and not have to pay any tolls other than a small fee to cross The Mackinac Bridge. People coming up through Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin likely won't have to pay any tolls in those states, but even if they do, they won't pay any tolls in Michigan other than to cross The Big Mac.
Well, to answer your question, I still find your assertion that Michigan is a tourist destination because of some lack of tolls to not be well-founded. Like said elsewhere, you need a citation backing your opinion up with some real data or information.
People still flood toll-filled states for tourism. Heck, New York City itself receives tens of millions of tourists per year -- probably just as many or more than MI as a whole -- and you have to pay to get in that city.
New England is flooded with tourists and of course, Florida.
MI is hardly a tourist mecca on the same level, despite the quality of the draws.
Road construction and maintenance in Michigan is primarily funded by the gas tax. With EVs becoming more and more popular (and eventually likely compulsory), the revenue from the gas tax will only decrease, and will start to disproportionately put the burden of funding roads on gasoline car owners, so how else would funding continue? There has to be some kind of tax increase somewhere else to cover it, so why not directly tax those using the road via tolls? The only other obvious route would be to put an additional tax on electric utilities.
This proposal is pointless in an era of gasoline cars, but given the context of the change in how cars are powered, it makes sense.
If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.
Quote from: Rothman on February 09, 2023, 09:49:48 PM
Well, to answer your question, I still find your assertion that Michigan is a tourist destination because of some lack of tolls to not be well-founded. Like said elsewhere, you need a citation backing your opinion up with some real data or information.
People still flood toll-filled states for tourism. Heck, New York City itself receives tens of millions of tourists per year -- probably just as many or more than MI as a whole -- and you have to pay to get in that city.
New England is flooded with tourists and of course, Florida.
MI is hardly a tourist mecca on the same level, despite the quality of the draws.
Actually, the amount of tourist dollars spent in Michigan is massive and, aside from the auto industry–and we know how fickle that can be–it's the second-largest driver of the state's economy. And while we're not the agricultural powerhouse on the level of many of the Great Plains states or California, ag and forestry are also HUGE parts of the state's economy, so for tourism to be No.2, that's saying a lot. I found this data that may be pertinent: "According to Tourism Economics, Michigan hosted 113.4 million visitors who spent $22.8 billion in the state. Domestic and overseas travelers spent $21.3 billion and $1.5 billion, respectively. The report showed visitor spending directly supports more than 214,000 Michigan jobs." So, Florida and California may be tourism hotspots, especially for international travelers, but for domestic/Canadian travelers, Michigan and its Great Lakes are a huge draw.
As for the idea that a lack of toll roads in the state helps draw tourists, that's been a statistic that's been cited by transportation and state tourism officials since the 1950s. It was one of the reasons the Toledo—Detroit—Saginaw Toll Road (which was actually in the planning stages in the late 1950s) as well as the proposed Detroit—Chicago Toll Road were both eventually abandoned. Michigan was always cited as a "destination state" for both tourism and economic reasons, being off the main transcontinental routes, although this was well before the concept of NAFTA was a thing and before Detroit became the single busiest international border crossing in terms of trade and commerce. I'm not sure where the original "statistic" came from that people have been citing for over 65 years now, but it's been something oft-quoted that entire time.
And I don't know how true it is that tolls are any level of an overall "barrier" to tourism, but I can give you one concrete example from last year: Our best friends (from greater Grand Rapids, Michigan) were heading to a family reunion being held in Brooklyn last summer. They actually
did stop and factor in the effect of tolls–both highway tolls in Ohio and Pennsylvania as well as bridge tolls to get to or from Manhattan–as part of their vacation plans. Maybe it's just a "Michigander's mindset" thing, where we generally only have to have either $4.00 or $8.00 in our pocket to get anywhere in our state, aside from the cost of gas, of course, but it something that at least
some people do consider.
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
Quote from: rhen_var on February 09, 2023, 11:22:25 PM
Road construction and maintenance in Michigan is primarily funded by the gas tax. With EVs becoming more and more popular (and eventually likely compulsory), the revenue from the gas tax will only decrease, and will start to disproportionately put the burden of funding roads on gasoline car owners, so how else would funding continue? There has to be some kind of tax increase somewhere else to cover it, so why not directly tax those using the road via tolls? The only other obvious route would be to put an additional tax on electric utilities.
This proposal is pointless in an era of gasoline cars, but given the context of the change in how cars are powered, it makes sense.
The other proposal that's being thrown around is a straight-up mileage tax. You pay a tax directly based on how many miles you drive, regardless of where you drove them. I'm not sure where and how I'd prefer my taxes to be calculated, but one thing is for certain: I'd prefer the criminals holding the purse strings not waste our money. Then maybe they'd actually have the funds to fix our infrastructure.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 10, 2023, 07:27:23 AM
If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.
Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in Chicagoland?
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:32:24 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 09, 2023, 09:49:48 PM
Well, to answer your question, I still find your assertion that Michigan is a tourist destination because of some lack of tolls to not be well-founded. Like said elsewhere, you need a citation backing your opinion up with some real data or information.
People still flood toll-filled states for tourism. Heck, New York City itself receives tens of millions of tourists per year -- probably just as many or more than MI as a whole -- and you have to pay to get in that city.
New England is flooded with tourists and of course, Florida.
MI is hardly a tourist mecca on the same level, despite the quality of the draws.
Actually, the amount of tourist dollars spent in Michigan is massive and, aside from the auto industry–and we know how fickle that can be–it's the second-largest driver of the state's economy. And while we're not the agricultural powerhouse on the level of many of the Great Plains states or California, ag and forestry are also HUGE parts of the state's economy, so for tourism to be No.2, that's saying a lot. I found this data that may be pertinent: "According to Tourism Economics, Michigan hosted 113.4 million visitors who spent $22.8 billion in the state. Domestic and overseas travelers spent $21.3 billion and $1.5 billion, respectively. The report showed visitor spending directly supports more than 214,000 Michigan jobs." So, Florida and California may be tourism hotspots, especially for international travelers, but for domestic/Canadian travelers, Michigan and its Great Lakes are a huge draw.
As for the idea that a lack of toll roads in the state helps draw tourists, that's been a statistic that's been cited by transportation and state tourism officials since the 1950s. It was one of the reasons the Toledo—Detroit—Saginaw Toll Road (which was actually in the planning stages in the late 1950s) as well as the proposed Detroit—Chicago Toll Road were both eventually abandoned. Michigan was always cited as a "destination state" for both tourism and economic reasons, being off the main transcontinental routes, although this was well before the concept of NAFTA was a thing and before Detroit became the single busiest international border crossing in terms of trade and commerce. I'm not sure where the original "statistic" came from that people have been citing for over 65 years now, but it's been something oft-quoted that entire time.
And I don't know how true it is that tolls are any level of an overall "barrier" to tourism, but I can give you one concrete example from last year: Our best friends (from greater Grand Rapids, Michigan) were heading to a family reunion being held in Brooklyn last summer. They actually did stop and factor in the effect of tolls–both highway tolls in Ohio and Pennsylvania as well as bridge tolls to get to or from Manhattan–as part of their vacation plans. Maybe it's just a "Michigander's mindset" thing, where we generally only have to have either $4.00 or $8.00 in our pocket to get anywhere in our state, aside from the cost of gas, of course, but it something that at least some people do consider.
NY state on its own has over twice the tourists per year than MI (266m), which helps to put your MI statistics in proper perspective. Sure, they look big on their own, but in the grand scheme of things, they are merely above average. And, of course, to be fair, NY has tourist draws of a more global nature than MI (Statue of Liberty, Niagara Falls, Broadway, etc.), so strength of interest also comes into play.
Per border crossing data for trucks, Laredo, TX makes Detroit, MI look like a very distant second per USDOT, but freight data is quite volatile over time (still scratching my head over how Port of New York/NJ beat out Long Beach and New Orleans for a recent quarter for busiest port in U.S.): https://explore.dot.gov/views/BorderCrossingData/CrossingRank?%3Aembed=y. Even broader slices of the data makes Detroit fall lower in the current rankings.
Still, the idea of tolls being a strong deterrent to tourism just doesn't seem well-founded when states with tolls, either within or en route to get to them, have truly gargantuan tourist numbers.
Yes, there are going to be anecdotes about those people that need to shunpike or do so out of some extreme adherence to principle, but the traffic volumes on our nation's major toll roads and bridges speak for themselves.
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
Makes some of the fictional proposals on this site seem tame in comparison.
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
That is excellent. A nice one-stop place to see the fever dreams of highway planners from way back when. It also helps make some of the freeway stubs make more sense for folks.
For example:
- the 4-lane Niles bypass
- the short stub of M-60 freeway on the west side of Jackson
- the wide ROW of US-127 between Jackson and US-12
- the long section of freeway ROW M-52 rides atop between Adrian and Manchester
I'll add a third freeway segment not shown on the map to your list: M-6
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 10, 2023, 07:27:23 AM
If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.
Absolutely!
Quote from: JoePCool14 on February 10, 2023, 09:59:04 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on February 09, 2023, 11:22:25 PM
Road construction and maintenance in Michigan is primarily funded by the gas tax. With EVs becoming more and more popular (and eventually likely compulsory), the revenue from the gas tax will only decrease, and will start to disproportionately put the burden of funding roads on gasoline car owners, so how else would funding continue? There has to be some kind of tax increase somewhere else to cover it, so why not directly tax those using the road via tolls? The only other obvious route would be to put an additional tax on electric utilities.
This proposal is pointless in an era of gasoline cars, but given the context of the change in how cars are powered, it makes sense.
The other proposal that's being thrown around is a straight-up mileage tax. You pay a tax directly based on how many miles you drive, regardless of where you drove them. I'm not sure where and how I'd prefer my taxes to be calculated, but one thing is for certain: I'd prefer the criminals holding the purse strings not waste our money. Then maybe they'd actually have the funds to fix our infrastructure.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 10, 2023, 07:27:23 AM
If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.
Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in Chicagoland?
I have lived there and I shunpiked those roads too.
Good lord, people, even MDOT says tolls may discourage tourism!
"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
Is that enough citation for you laxative junkies? :)
Now, please show some citation that constructing toll roads will improve tourism in Michigan!
Quote from: JoePCool14 on February 10, 2023, 09:59:04 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on February 09, 2023, 11:22:25 PM
Road construction and maintenance in Michigan is primarily funded by the gas tax. With EVs becoming more and more popular (and eventually likely compulsory), the revenue from the gas tax will only decrease, and will start to disproportionately put the burden of funding roads on gasoline car owners, so how else would funding continue? There has to be some kind of tax increase somewhere else to cover it, so why not directly tax those using the road via tolls? The only other obvious route would be to put an additional tax on electric utilities.
This proposal is pointless in an era of gasoline cars, but given the context of the change in how cars are powered, it makes sense.
The other proposal that's being thrown around is a straight-up mileage tax. You pay a tax directly based on how many miles you drive, regardless of where you drove them. I'm not sure where and how I'd prefer my taxes to be calculated, but one thing is for certain: I'd prefer the criminals holding the purse strings not waste our money. Then maybe they'd actually have the funds to fix our infrastructure.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 10, 2023, 07:27:23 AM
If they made any of these highways into toll roads I would shunpike them just like I do in the states that have toll roads. Other than crossing the Mackinac Bridge I haven't paid a toll to ride on a highway in years. And the Mackinac Bridge is $8 round trip.
Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in Chicagoland?
I don't live there, I wouldn't live there, and I won't even visit that Hellhole anymore! The last time I did visit there I inadvertently blew through 2 toll pay zones. I saw the 3rd one, stopped and was told I didn't have to worry about it, so I didn't. Everything about Chicago sucks now! I remember when The Museum of Science and Industry was free to park and cost $5! As of about 10 years ago, it cost $20 bucks to park and admission was similar to Disney World... maybe higher. I'm assuming the other museums are about the same now. Both airports suck and I refuse to fly into or out Chicago now. Tolls everywhere and you have a better chance of getting shot than finding anything approaching being reasonably priced... especially hotels!
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 10, 2023, 02:58:30 PM
I don't live there, I wouldn't live there, and I won't even visit that Hellhole anymore! The last time I did visit there I inadvertently blew through 2 toll pay zones. I saw the 3rd one, stopped and was told I didn't have to worry about it, so I didn't. Everything about Chicago sucks now! I remember when The Museum of Science and Industry was free to park and cost $5! As of about 10 years ago, it cost $20 bucks to park and admission was similar to Disney World... maybe higher. I'm assuming the other museums are about the same now. Both airports suck and I refuse to fly into or out Chicago now. Tolls everywhere and you have a better chance of getting shot than finding anything approaching being reasonably priced... especially hotels!
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/044/247/297.png)
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
Some of it is downright hilarious. A freeway to Bad Axe? Three freeways between Detroit and Chicago? And what's going on with that little freeway between like Adrian and Clinton?
Also gotta love the direct freeway between Grand Rapids and Flint; that would've saved what, 5 minutes over 96->69?
Nice of them to throw the UP a bone, too.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 10, 2023, 02:48:11 PM
Good lord, people, even MDOT says tolls may discourage tourism!
"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
Is that enough citation for you laxative junkies? :)
Perhaps you should read the entire pamphlet, which definitely is trying to persuade people of the benefits of tolling rather than criticizing it.
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
lol @ an M-21 freeway between Grand Rapids and Flint. As a lifetime visitor of St. Johns, I don't think that ever crossed my mind even in my FritzOwl-ish youth.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 10, 2023, 02:48:11 PM
"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."
People who won't pay $5 to get somewhere probably weren't going to spend a lot once they got there. A loss for Budget Inn and McDonald's perhaps, but not for the Hilton or the high end steakhouses.
i know a lot of people (for various reasons) will shunpike the Indiana Toll Road for free I-94, but that southernmost Michigan freeway proposal looked like it would've been within 10 miles of the ITR for most of it's run.
I wonder if Indiana had somehow "persuaded" MDOT, and/or the Michiganders along the border towns to NIMBY the idea?
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 10, 2023, 02:48:11 PM
Good lord, people, even MDOT says tolls may discourage tourism!
"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
Is that enough citation for you laxative junkies? :)
Perhaps you should read the entire pamphlet, which definitely is trying to persuade people of the benefits of tolling rather than criticizing it.
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
Citation needed. You're implying that toll roads encourage tourism, which is an absolutely asinine statement!
^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.
Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 11, 2023, 08:00:01 PM
^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.
Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.
I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization. At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal. That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation. I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted. But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan.
Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism. If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
I'll answer anyway. It's an apples to oranges comparison. There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers. For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have. It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have. But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't. I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways. So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is. But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it. Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited: https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/
1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii
Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states. So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states. That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not. It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 11, 2023, 07:12:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 10, 2023, 02:48:11 PM
Good lord, people, even MDOT says tolls may discourage tourism!
"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
Is that enough citation for you laxative junkies? :)
Perhaps you should read the entire pamphlet, which definitely is trying to persuade people of the benefits of tolling rather than criticizing it.
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
Citation needed. You're implying that toll roads encourage tourism, which is an absolutely asinine statement!
See my response to Bessert in the thread. I am not saying toll roads generate tourism, but that they aren't that big of a deterrent, if at all.
All these highways they are talking about becoming toll roads are easily shunpiked. Like if I was going north of Saginaw to say Grayling, I'd just take M-58 to M-47 to US-10 to US-127 back to I-75 if that part isn't tolled. If I was using I-94 between Detroit and the Indiana border and that was tolled I'd just use US-12 even though it's slower I'm not going to pay to ride on a highway. And I heard in Ohio or Pennsylvania or maybe both that if you get on the toll road and you exit it too quickly like say you drive 60 miles along it and make it in a half hour they are supposed to give you a ticket. I'd avoid that by simply hitting a service plaza and staying there for a few minutes to off set any of that but I'd avoid tolls all together by shunpiking.
One of the best shunpikes I did was when I went to Pittsburgh in 2021. I didn't really care how long it took me to get to Pittsburgh, I took US-30 across Ohio and West Virginia to get to Pittsburgh it was a rather nice route too especially between Upper Sandusky and Mansfield about a 45 mile drive that took about 40 minutes to complete.
Quote from: pianocello on February 11, 2023, 12:02:49 AM
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
lol @ an M-21 freeway between Grand Rapids and Flint. As a lifetime visitor of St. Johns, I don't think that ever crossed my mind even in my FritzOwl-ish youth.
I have never thought of M-21 being a freeway. I-69 and I-96 are there now so that will never be brought up again.
Regardless of whether charging tolls encourages or discourages tourism, I think the likelihood of more tolls being implemented in Michigan is highly unlikely. Of course, if I'm wrong, I will own up to it.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 12, 2023, 07:30:40 AM
Quote from: pianocello on February 11, 2023, 12:02:49 AM
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
lol @ an M-21 freeway between Grand Rapids and Flint. As a lifetime visitor of St. Johns, I don't think that ever crossed my mind even in my FritzOwl-ish youth.
I have never thought of M-21 being a freeway. I-69 and I-96 are there now so that will never be brought up again.
Funny thing is, those are on the map too!
Also I like the fact that of all the crazy lines on this map, there's still nothing between Traverse City and I-75. And no love for the UP either; it looks like the planners at the time thought the Thumb should be more connected than Marquette or Houghton/Hancock.
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
I really wish the east/west UP freeway had been built. The short expressway segment near Gladstone is just a tantalizing taste of what could have been.
Quote from: rhen_var on February 13, 2023, 12:04:43 AM
Quote from: bessertc on February 10, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org) this morning:
- Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961) (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/projected1980frwys1961.html)
Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... :-D
I really wish the east/west UP freeway had been built. The short expressway segment near Gladstone is just a tantalizing taste of what could have been.
Why? Traffic volumes don't warrant it and there is no place you are going to get to that much faster than if it was a freeway.
^ Given the distance of 150 miles, you should shave off about 30 minutes of travel time assuming a 75 mph speed limit.
So there is some time saving involve. But I do agree that the traffic volumes do not warrant it.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 13, 2023, 08:35:58 AM
^ Given the distance of 150 miles, you should shave off about 30 minutes of travel time assuming a 75 mph speed limit.
So there is some time saving involve. But I do agree that the traffic volumes do not warrant it.
A lot of traffic on US-2 is doing about 70-75 mph already. The U.P. would be the least populated state if it was it's own state.
Unless you positively have be in Saginaw stay away from the city there have been shootings in various spots of the city today.
Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 13, 2023, 03:11:59 PM
Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.
Yikes! I stop there for gas quite often.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 13, 2023, 10:00:25 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 13, 2023, 03:11:59 PM
Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.
Yikes! I stop there for gas quite often.
It's not a bad area or anything I think they were just trying to get away and of course didn't. I mean there are 5 gas stations, multiple restaurants, the outlet mall and everything. The two exits I wouldn't get off at knowing how the area is but of course if I wasn't from the area I probably wouldn't know this but exit 149 and exit 151. 149 is M-46 and 151 is M-81 but both lead you through some real rough areas of Saginaw, going east of I-75 is fine though.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 11, 2023, 09:30:54 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 11, 2023, 08:00:01 PM
^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.
Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.
I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization. At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal. That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation. I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted. But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan.
Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism. If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
I'll answer anyway. It's an apples to oranges comparison. There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers. For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have. It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have. But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't. I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways. So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is. But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it. Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited: https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/
1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii
Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states. So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states. That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not. It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.
Southern California has a bunch of toll roads and I have the transponder receipts to prove it. Texas has several toll roads, especially around Dallas and Houston along with that thing around Austin that few use. Virginia has a few toll roads, notably around Richmond and DC. So that's five out of ten with those five in the top six.
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 11, 2023, 09:30:54 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 11, 2023, 08:00:01 PM
^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.
Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.
I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization. At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal. That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation. I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted. But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan.
Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism. If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
I'll answer anyway. It's an apples to oranges comparison. There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers. For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have. It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have. But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't. I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways. So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is. But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it. Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited: https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/
1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii
Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states. So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states. That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not. It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.
Southern California has a bunch of toll roads and I have the transponder receipts to prove it. Texas has several toll roads, especially around Dallas and Houston along with that thing around Austin that few use. Virginia has a few toll roads, notably around Richmond and DC. So that's five out of ten with those five in the top six.
Eyeballing my atlas I'm not seeing any that you mentioned. They must be very short in length. The point is you can easily transverse these states without paying tolls.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 14, 2023, 06:43:55 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 13, 2023, 10:00:25 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 13, 2023, 03:11:59 PM
Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.
Yikes! I stop there for gas quite often.
It's not a bad area or anything I think they were just trying to get away and of course didn't. I mean there are 5 gas stations, multiple restaurants, the outlet mall and everything. The two exits I wouldn't get off at knowing how the area is but of course if I wasn't from the area I probably wouldn't know this but exit 149 and exit 151. 149 is M-46 and 151 is M-81 but both lead you through some real rough areas of Saginaw, going east of I-75 is fine though.
No, I was just thinking that I could have been caught right in the middle of that.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 15, 2023, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 14, 2023, 06:43:55 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 13, 2023, 10:00:25 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 13, 2023, 03:11:59 PM
Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.
Yikes! I stop there for gas quite often.
It's not a bad area or anything I think they were just trying to get away and of course didn't. I mean there are 5 gas stations, multiple restaurants, the outlet mall and everything. The two exits I wouldn't get off at knowing how the area is but of course if I wasn't from the area I probably wouldn't know this but exit 149 and exit 151. 149 is M-46 and 151 is M-81 but both lead you through some real rough areas of Saginaw, going east of I-75 is fine though.
No, I was just thinking that I could have been caught right in the middle of that.
Yeah that too. I remember the rock throwing incident at Dodge Road and thinking that could have been me.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 15, 2023, 05:55:33 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 11, 2023, 09:30:54 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 11, 2023, 08:00:01 PM
^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.
Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.
I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization. At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal. That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation. I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted. But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan.
Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism. If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
I'll answer anyway. It's an apples to oranges comparison. There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers. For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have. It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have. But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't. I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways. So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is. But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it. Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited: https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/
1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii
Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states. So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states. That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not. It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.
Southern California has a bunch of toll roads and I have the transponder receipts to prove it. Texas has several toll roads, especially around Dallas and Houston along with that thing around Austin that few use. Virginia has a few toll roads, notably around Richmond and DC. So that's five out of ten with those five in the top six.
Eyeballing my atlas I'm not seeing any that you mentioned. They must be very short in length. The point is you can easily transverse these states without paying tolls.
I suppose, but last time I was in Texas, you'll find toll roads as the direct route to wherever your destination lies due to being critical links in urban areas. I ended up on the PGBT that way.
Dallas and Houston have a number of toll roads that stretch for 30+ miles in many cases.
They are definitely not "small" .
How about Orlando, FL? Their freeway network is entirely toll roads with the exception of I-4.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 15, 2023, 11:22:23 PM
Dallas and Houston have a number of toll roads that stretch for 30+ miles in many cases.
They are definitely not "small" .
How about Orlando, FL? Their freeway network is entirely toll roads with the exception of I-4.
Once again, eyeballing the atlas they were not apparent. I see them now in metro areas, but they are indeed short and easily avoided by travelers. I've driven through Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin many times and never had to pay a toll. As for Florida, once again, I included it as one of the tourist states with tolls. Why do you keep trying to start something over nothing?
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 15, 2023, 05:55:33 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 11, 2023, 09:30:54 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 11, 2023, 08:00:01 PM
^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.
Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.
I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization. At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal. That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation. I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted. But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan.
Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism. If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
I'll answer anyway. It's an apples to oranges comparison. There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers. For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have. It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have. But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't. I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways. So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is. But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it. Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited: https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/
1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii
Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states. So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states. That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not. It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.
Southern California has a bunch of toll roads and I have the transponder receipts to prove it. Texas has several toll roads, especially around Dallas and Houston along with that thing around Austin that few use. Virginia has a few toll roads, notably around Richmond and DC. So that's five out of ten with those five in the top six.
Eyeballing my atlas I'm not seeing any that you mentioned. They must be very short in length. The point is you can easily transverse these states without paying tolls.
Here's a list of US toll roads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_United_States) including hybrids like HOT lanes. Your point was certain states have no tolls, not that you can cross them while avoiding tolls. You don't get to change what you originally claimed once proven wrong. I've crossed New York state on NY 17/I-86 to avoid the toll so it's not like those cross-state toll roads can't be shunpiked. Also, most of those toll roads are where the most people are driving, not in sparsely populated areas like I-40 through the Mojave or I-10 through West Texas.
Here's a little one. The Chesapeake Expressway (VA-168) is a 16 mile freeway through Chesapeake connecting I-64 to the North Carolina state line, a major thoroughfare for travelers and tourist bound to the Outer Banks during the summer months.
The southern 6 miles is tolled, and during the summer, has tolls as high as $9 one-way on the weekends. It's easily avoidable by the parallel rural two-lane VA-168 Business, and many locals do shunpike it to avoid the $4 off-peak toll. But during the summer months, while a number do choke up VA-168 Business, the toll road still remains fairly busy with out of state plates happily paying $9 to remain on an underposted 55 mph rural freeway (should be 65 or 70 mph and the local police love setting up shop during the summer, because the $9 for each vehicle already being paid isn't enough) for a few more miles, that still dumps you onto a choked 5 lane undivided arterial south of there.
Clearly no discouragement to head to the Outer Banks due to it. I certainly don't care for the road (actually - the road is very nice. I don't care for the high toll and low speed limit), but I can't deny it brings in a significant amount of revenue for the city each summer.
Quote from: skluth on February 16, 2023, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 15, 2023, 05:55:33 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 11, 2023, 09:30:54 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 11, 2023, 08:00:01 PM
^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.
Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.
I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization. At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal. That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation. I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted. But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan.
Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism. If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
I'll answer anyway. It's an apples to oranges comparison. There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers. For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have. It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have. But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't. I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways. So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is. But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it. Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited: https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/
1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii
Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states. So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states. That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not. It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.
Southern California has a bunch of toll roads and I have the transponder receipts to prove it. Texas has several toll roads, especially around Dallas and Houston along with that thing around Austin that few use. Virginia has a few toll roads, notably around Richmond and DC. So that's five out of ten with those five in the top six.
Eyeballing my atlas I'm not seeing any that you mentioned. They must be very short in length. The point is you can easily transverse these states without paying tolls.
Here's a list of US toll roads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_United_States) including hybrids like HOT lanes. Your point was certain states have no tolls, not that you can cross them while avoiding tolls. You don't get to change what you originally claimed once proven wrong. I've crossed New York state on NY 17/I-86 to avoid the toll so it's not like those cross-state toll roads can't be shunpiked. Also, most of those toll roads are where the most people are driving, not in sparsely populated areas like I-40 through the Mojave or I-10 through West Texas.
If you're going to attempt to speak for me then make sure you speak accurately and include all the information!
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 11, 2023, 09:30:54 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 11, 2023, 08:00:01 PM
^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.
Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.
I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization. At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal. That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation. I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted. But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan.
Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism. If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 05:56:41 PM
Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.
I'll answer anyway. It's an apples to oranges comparison. There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers. For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have. It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have. But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't. I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways. So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is. But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it. Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited: https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/
1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii
Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states. So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states. That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not. It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.
I already stated that I was technically wrong about that, but so what? Yeah, Texas and California do have a few miles of toll roads that you have to strain to see and look diligently for on a state road atlas. I don't see any on the interstates or leading to any tourist attractions such as Six Flags or ballparks. I don't see upon entering these states. I don't see any long ones like The New York State Thruway or The Florida Turnpike. I don't see any tolls along any route that would chase off tourists. I see them in metro areas that would affect almost exclusively locals. And once again, that being said, it doesn't make a bit of difference what other states do, or what their reasons are for doing or not doing something. Yeah, New York state has the New York State Thruway and does a lot of tourism, but they don't do tourism because of The New York State Thruway- they do tourism in spite of this barrier. Why? Because New York has Niagara Falls, New York City, the Statue of Liberty, The Catskills and so on and so forth. There are a lot of attractions in every part of the state. New York can get away with it, but I have no doubt that they'd do more tourism without requiring visitors to pay tolls. They can get away with charging high city, state and business taxes too. Does that mean Michigan should charge high city, state and business taxes so we can become a populated state like New York? It didn't work too well for Granholm, now did it? People fled the state in droves.
I have no idea why a few of you insist on conducting and continuing this witch hunt and deliberately altering what I've stated and/or what I obviously meant.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 16, 2023, 02:38:13 PM
Here's a little one. The Chesapeake Expressway (VA-168) is a 16 mile freeway through Chesapeake connecting I-64 to the North Carolina state line, a major thoroughfare for travelers and tourist bound to the Outer Banks during the summer months.
The southern 6 miles is tolled, and during the summer, has tolls as high as $9 one-way on the weekends. It's easily avoidable by the parallel rural two-lane VA-168 Business, and many locals do shunpike it to avoid the $4 off-peak toll. But during the summer months, while a number do choke up VA-168 Business, the toll road still remains fairly busy with out of state plates happily paying $9 to remain on an underposted 55 mph rural freeway (should be 65 or 70 mph and the local police love setting up shop during the summer, because the $9 for each vehicle already being paid isn't enough) for a few more miles, that still dumps you onto a choked 5 lane undivided arterial south of there.
Clearly no discouragement to head to the Outer Banks due to it. I certainly don't care for the road (actually - the road is very nice. I don't care for the high toll and low speed limit), but I can't deny it brings in a significant amount of revenue for the city each summer.
And your point is?
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 16, 2023, 11:38:17 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 16, 2023, 02:38:13 PM
Here's a little one. The Chesapeake Expressway (VA-168) is a 16 mile freeway through Chesapeake connecting I-64 to the North Carolina state line, a major thoroughfare for travelers and tourist bound to the Outer Banks during the summer months.
The southern 6 miles is tolled, and during the summer, has tolls as high as $9 one-way on the weekends. It's easily avoidable by the parallel rural two-lane VA-168 Business, and many locals do shunpike it to avoid the $4 off-peak toll. But during the summer months, while a number do choke up VA-168 Business, the toll road still remains fairly busy with out of state plates happily paying $9 to remain on an underposted 55 mph rural freeway (should be 65 or 70 mph and the local police love setting up shop during the summer, because the $9 for each vehicle already being paid isn't enough) for a few more miles, that still dumps you onto a choked 5 lane undivided arterial south of there.
Clearly no discouragement to head to the Outer Banks due to it. I certainly don't care for the road (actually - the road is very nice. I don't care for the high toll and low speed limit), but I can't deny it brings in a significant amount of revenue for the city each summer.
And your point is?
You said tolls discourage tourism... this one hasn't seemed to.
The State of Michigan says that toll roads may discourage tourism.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
It's time to stop talking in circles and toll I-75 from the border to Detroit.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2023, 06:28:56 AM
The State of Michigan says that toll roads may discourage tourism.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
It says
may discourage. Is there any concrete proof? Study?
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 17, 2023, 08:25:24 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2023, 06:28:56 AM
The State of Michigan says that toll roads may discourage tourism.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
It says may discourage. Is there any concrete proof? Study?
What makes you think that paying money to ride on a highway isn't going to discourage people from riding on it? Especially when Michigan has never had a toll road.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 08:59:01 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 17, 2023, 08:25:24 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2023, 06:28:56 AM
The State of Michigan says that toll roads may discourage tourism.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
It says may discourage. Is there any concrete proof? Study?
What makes you think that paying money to ride on a highway isn't going to discourage people from riding on it? Especially when Michigan has never had a toll road.
I've no doubt it will discourage
some people from driving it. But then, the toll roads in Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc. are hardly empty even though they can be shunpiked. That point has already been made.
What might make Michigan unique is that it's a peninsula, and therefore presumably it doesn't get as much border-to-border thru traffic as the other states. I wonder if that's been considered as I think that somehow would result in a higher rate of shunpiking, especially if Michigan is the destination state for the trip. But that's just a gut feeling; I have nothing to back it up.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 08:59:01 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 17, 2023, 08:25:24 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2023, 06:28:56 AM
The State of Michigan says that toll roads may discourage tourism.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
It says may discourage. Is there any concrete proof? Study?
What makes you think that paying money to ride on a highway isn't going to discourage people from riding on it? Especially when Michigan has never had a toll road.
It might discourage a few to avoid it, but any other states with toll roads will show you that they can be quite busy. The previous comment about the Turnpikes is certainly true.
And even if someone avoids a toll road, it doesn't mean they'll avoid going to Michigan all together.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2023, 10:14:42 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 08:59:01 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 17, 2023, 08:25:24 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2023, 06:28:56 AM
The State of Michigan says that toll roads may discourage tourism.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf
It says may discourage. Is there any concrete proof? Study?
What makes you think that paying money to ride on a highway isn't going to discourage people from riding on it? Especially when Michigan has never had a toll road.
It might discourage a few to avoid it, but any other states with toll roads will show you that they can be quite busy. The previous comment about the Turnpikes is certainly true.
And even if someone avoids a toll road, it doesn't mean they'll avoid going to Michigan all together.
Those other states have had toll roads for decades, Michigan has never had a toll road so with the tourism that we already have here in Michigan it could very easily have an effect on tourism. It wouldn't matter to me anyway because I'd just shunpike whatever the toll road is.
I-75 between Bay City and Standish is pretty easy to bypass along with other interstates in the state.
Pretty easy to bypass if you're willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits, etc.
If any other toll roads show, some may divert, but the vast majority will remain on the interstates, especially if the tolls are relatively inexpensive.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2023, 10:25:01 AM
Pretty easy to bypass if you're willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits, etc.
If any other toll roads show, some may divert, but the vast majority will remain on the interstates, especially if the tolls are relatively inexpensive.
I am willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits. Although in the example that I am giving for I-75 between Standish and Bay City I wouldn't be dealing with no two lane roads at all, just a slower speed limit.
Like when I'm going to Cleveland or other points East I don't take the Ohio Turnpike. I'll take OH-2 and I-90 between Toledo and Cleveland that's just one example right there.
But if you're on like the Pennsylvania Turnpike which is very expensive I think I may just stay on I-80 and work my way across Pennsylvania that way.
You might be right if it's an inexpensive toll but I still think that the locals are going to shunpike.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 10:29:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2023, 10:25:01 AM
Pretty easy to bypass if you're willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits, etc.
If any other toll roads show, some may divert, but the vast majority will remain on the interstates, especially if the tolls are relatively inexpensive.
I am willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits. Although in the example that I am giving for I-75 between Standish and Bay City I wouldn't be dealing with no two lane roads at all, just a slower speed limit.
Like when I'm going to Cleveland or other points East I don't take the Ohio Turnpike. I'll take OH-2 and I-90 between Toledo and Cleveland that's just one example right there.
But if you're on like the Pennsylvania Turnpike which is very expensive I think I may just stay on I-80 and work my way across Pennsylvania that way.
You might be right if it's an inexpensive toll but I still think that the locals are going to shunpike.
Given traffic volumes on the major toll roads, I am not persuaded that you are representative of the broader driving population.
Time to bring tolls to MI.
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2023, 10:43:14 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 10:29:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2023, 10:25:01 AM
Pretty easy to bypass if you're willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits, etc.
If any other toll roads show, some may divert, but the vast majority will remain on the interstates, especially if the tolls are relatively inexpensive.
I am willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits. Although in the example that I am giving for I-75 between Standish and Bay City I wouldn't be dealing with no two lane roads at all, just a slower speed limit.
Like when I'm going to Cleveland or other points East I don't take the Ohio Turnpike. I'll take OH-2 and I-90 between Toledo and Cleveland that's just one example right there.
But if you're on like the Pennsylvania Turnpike which is very expensive I think I may just stay on I-80 and work my way across Pennsylvania that way.
You might be right if it's an inexpensive toll but I still think that the locals are going to shunpike.
Given traffic volumes on the major toll roads, I am not persuaded that you are representative of the broader driving population.
Time to bring tolls to MI.
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.
In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.
Quote from: GaryV on February 18, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.
In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.
LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2023, 10:43:14 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 10:29:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2023, 10:25:01 AM
Pretty easy to bypass if you're willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits, etc.
If any other toll roads show, some may divert, but the vast majority will remain on the interstates, especially if the tolls are relatively inexpensive.
I am willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits. Although in the example that I am giving for I-75 between Standish and Bay City I wouldn't be dealing with no two lane roads at all, just a slower speed limit.
Like when I'm going to Cleveland or other points East I don't take the Ohio Turnpike. I'll take OH-2 and I-90 between Toledo and Cleveland that's just one example right there.
But if you're on like the Pennsylvania Turnpike which is very expensive I think I may just stay on I-80 and work my way across Pennsylvania that way.
You might be right if it's an inexpensive toll but I still think that the locals are going to shunpike.
Given traffic volumes on the major toll roads, I am not persuaded that you are representative of the broader driving population.
Time to bring tolls to MI.
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
I wont give an opinion on whether Michigan needs tolls or not, but he does have a point. The vast majority of traffic isn't going to change course due to a toll.
I'll give another "local" example. They widened and replaced the 2 lane Dominion Blvd (US-17) here in Chesapeake with a 4 lane freeway and high level bridge over the Elizabeth River a few years ago, and charged a toll on a previously free route. Despite a lot of local opposition (I can't say that I supported tolling it either, but I understand why it was necessary), the traffic volumes only dropped from around 31-33k vehicles a day to about 27-28k a day. While around 3-4k may have diverted to other routes, 27-28k remained on the route. And since then, I believe the volumes have increased back to pre-toll volumes.
I avoid the road when traffic is light (the non toll route for me is less mileage and only a couple minutes slower), but will gladly take the toll road during peak hours and there's more congestion on the arterial / free route since it's only $1.30 or something. If I'm heading to I-64 or I-464 though, I will take it without question because the arterial alternatives for heading north add 10+ minutes and miles, and ultimately waste a good amount of time.
Bottom line: tolling was opposed locally, but ultimately did not result in much diversion, and allowed the city to construct a $400 million project and complete the 4 lane US-17 between North Carolina and I-64 / I-464 as a limited access (with intersections) highway.
I've advocated in the past for tolls for new freeway routes, where they could help relieve the load on existing freeways. A toll connection from the Indiana Toll Road to Detroit would pull traffic off I-94 and roll back the need for 6-laning, for example.
It could allow for a Jackson -> Toledo tollway and finally give Adrian a limited-access highway, most welcome during events at Michigan International Speedway. Extend it up M-50 through Charlotte to I-96 outside Grand Rapids, and that traffic now has another way to get across the state.
A tollway connecting Muskegon to Holland and Kalamazoo via Allegan would allow the M-231 corridor to go to 4 lanes and fully limited access. It could also extend along US-131 south of Portage to connect to the Indiana Toll Road and get the truck traffic out of Schoolcraft.
Another potential option would be to complete the M-59 expressway from I-96 to I-94 through Pontiac, or to complete the M-53/Mound Rd expressway between Imlay City and M-8 in Detroit.
This may be sketchier in terms of getting enough tolls for financing, but tolling could also allow limited-access expressway to finally reach Traverse City and Petoskey.
Assuming the numbers work, tolling can get much-needed capacity improvements without having to push a tax increase. The struggle is that in many of the places that would warrant it, they're already established "free" roads. But if played correctly, new tollways could ease pressure on existing freeways.
Traverse City-Officials have finally decided to build a new bridge across the Boardman River Valley which will create a new east-west bypass of Traverse City. The bridge has been a hot topic for many years in the area. Traverse City is one of the fastest growing areas in the state and needs more east-west corridors to help move traffic in the area. When complete, it will be the fourth longest span in the state.
A $100M bridge: Traverse City bypass plan emerges from 30-year debate(https://www.mlive.com/resizer/j3abCKEzn8_yaJ40q3ZNSoBMSoc=/800x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/EIPK4M4TVJDEJHGQGYCCS5QB6A.jpg)
QuoteIn Grand Traverse County, officials have finally decided to embark on a multi-year project to build a controversial piece of infrastructure that would alleviate traffic congestion in one of the fastest growing communities in Michigan.In 2022, the county Road Commission voted unanimously to pave way for advance work on a 2,200-foot-long bridge across the Boardman River Valley, which, when finished, will create a new east-west corridor for drivers to bypass Traverse City.
Officials estimate the arching span will last 120 years and cost $100 million to build. Much of that is expected to come from federal infrastructure grants. Not counting international spans, it would be Michigan's fourth longest bridge.
The July 28 decision marked a turning point in the long-successful effort by environmental and development opponents to keep the bridge at bay due to concern about potential negative impacts on valley wetlands and wildlife.
Opposition remains to the bridge, but project supporters say it has dwindled as the Traverse City area population swells and the few corridors which drivers can use to transit east or west across town have undergone reconstruction.
"It shouldn't take me 40 minutes to get from one side of Traverse City to the other," said Kevin Endres, chairman of the Grand Traverse County Economic Development Corporation. "It's just five miles. It's not a city with a million people."
"There's a demand. There's a need for it. I see it every day," said Endres, who works in commercial real estate. "We're probably behind the eight ball in having this built already."
"It's well overdue."
https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2023/02/in-traverse-city-a-bypass-bridge-plan-emerges-from-30-year-debate.html
They are just proposing to build the bridge and not revive the whole bypass, right? Something tells me the opposition will prevail, and the bridge will ultimately not be built. Call it pessimistic, but I feel my prediction has history on my side.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 19, 2023, 11:58:19 AM
They are just proposing to build the bridge and not revive the whole bypass, right?
This is *just* to build the bridge. Now, obviously, we both know once the bridge is built, it unlocks a whole array of possibilities to build out Hammond/Harmon Rd to a 5-lane divided or boulevard-type roadway. But it's not ever going to be high-speed 70 mph freeway - think 35 to 45 mph surface street.
Also, given local politics, I would expect this would never get uploaded to MDOT as a state roadway. That's the kind of move that would freak residents out about "paving over paradise" or something. I suspect any significant roadway expansion would be to county-owned roadways connecting south to M-113 and southeast to US-131, though you might see small extensions of 5-lane roadway (4-lanes with TWLTL) south along M-37 and east along M-72.
This bridge in Traverse City was proposed last year.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2023, 08:48:07 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2023, 10:43:14 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 10:29:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2023, 10:25:01 AM
Pretty easy to bypass if you're willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits, etc.
If any other toll roads show, some may divert, but the vast majority will remain on the interstates, especially if the tolls are relatively inexpensive.
I am willing to add travel time, deal with two lane roads and slower speed limits. Although in the example that I am giving for I-75 between Standish and Bay City I wouldn't be dealing with no two lane roads at all, just a slower speed limit.
Like when I'm going to Cleveland or other points East I don't take the Ohio Turnpike. I'll take OH-2 and I-90 between Toledo and Cleveland that's just one example right there.
But if you're on like the Pennsylvania Turnpike which is very expensive I think I may just stay on I-80 and work my way across Pennsylvania that way.
You might be right if it's an inexpensive toll but I still think that the locals are going to shunpike.
Given traffic volumes on the major toll roads, I am not persuaded that you are representative of the broader driving population.
Time to bring tolls to MI.
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
I wont give an opinion on whether Michigan needs tolls or not, but he does have a point. The vast majority of traffic isn't going to change course due to a toll.
I'll give another "local" example. They widened and replaced the 2 lane Dominion Blvd (US-17) here in Chesapeake with a 4 lane freeway and high level bridge over the Elizabeth River a few years ago, and charged a toll on a previously free route. Despite a lot of local opposition (I can't say that I supported tolling it either, but I understand why it was necessary), the traffic volumes only dropped from around 31-33k vehicles a day to about 27-28k a day. While around 3-4k may have diverted to other routes, 27-28k remained on the route. And since then, I believe the volumes have increased back to pre-toll volumes.
I avoid the road when traffic is light (the non toll route for me is less mileage and only a couple minutes slower), but will gladly take the toll road during peak hours and there's more congestion on the arterial / free route since it's only $1.30 or something. If I'm heading to I-64 or I-464 though, I will take it without question because the arterial alternatives for heading north add 10+ minutes and miles, and ultimately waste a good amount of time.
Bottom line: tolling was opposed locally, but ultimately did not result in much diversion, and allowed the city to construct a $400 million project and complete the 4 lane US-17 between North Carolina and I-64 / I-464 as a limited access (with intersections) highway.
Nobody said anything about "the vast majority of traffic" changing course, but in the example you just gave, according to your own figures, traffic dropped off by about 12%, which seems rather significant to me. And even if that is merely a temporary situation, that's still enough of a drop-off to cause some, and perhaps many, businesses to fail. And you're talking about southern Virginia, which has pretty nice weather year-round. In Michigan, much of the tourism business is seasonal, and businesses which may only be open for a few months, or do little business during the off-season, sure aren't going to be able to deal with a 12% traffic avoidance, or any traffic reduction for that matter.
I-75 is a mess north of Flint. Looking at Google Maps they have the orange on I-75 from Flint all the way to the bridge.
Got about 8 in of snow in Saginaw.
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 20, 2023, 09:15:13 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 19, 2023, 11:58:19 AM
They are just proposing to build the bridge and not revive the whole bypass, right?
This is *just* to build the bridge. Now, obviously, we both know once the bridge is built, it unlocks a whole array of possibilities to build out Hammond/Harmon Rd to a 5-lane divided or boulevard-type roadway. But it's not ever going to be high-speed 70 mph freeway - think 35 to 45 mph surface street.
Also, given local politics, I would expect this would never get uploaded to MDOT as a state roadway. That's the kind of move that would freak residents out about "paving over paradise" or something. I suspect any significant roadway expansion would be to county-owned roadways connecting south to M-113 and southeast to US-131, though you might see small extensions of 5-lane roadway (4-lanes with TWLTL) south along M-37 and east along M-72.
One has to wonder if there was
any connection between this development and the GTRC taking over
M-137 (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys120-139.html#M-137) and coming within a hair's width of taking over M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula in mid-2020. Anyone who knows me knows I'm no conspiracy theorist (a high school girlfriend of mine recently reached out to me asking me if her husband's belief that "the government" was seeding the clouds so that the snow falling to the earth in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area wasn't snow at all, but actually a chemical compound that doesn't melt... :-D), but I also know that MDOT and local road agencies tend to have months and sometimes
years of discussions over jurisdictional transfers before we in the public realm ever catch wind of it. And that actually includes yours truly, the Glorious and All-Knowing Webmaster of MichiganHighways.org (http://www.michiganhighways.org)! :thumbsup:
If you've read any of the media reports about this new "BUT-IT'S-NOT-A-BYPASS!!"-bridge, you can see there's still a TON of division in the local populace over whether or not to build this thing for a wide variety of reasons. Unfortunately, I can see
everyone's points here, so there's no really good answers without pissing off some group of people, but the idea the GTRC
wouldn't transfer Hammond-Hartman Rds plus some north-south corridor (e.g. Garfield, Four Mile, Five Mile, etc.) to the State as a trunkline route as a
Magical TC Bypass Route! doesn't hold a lot of water, IMHO. If they'll go ahead and piss off that many people by building such a major bridge that was voted down in by the populace in the 1980s and in opinion polls since, why wouldn't they just hand off the route to MDOT the first chance they get? Midland County did it ten seconds after they finished the new Meridian Rd bridge at Sanford (which became the new re-extension of M-30 down to M-20 back in 2009), so there's definitely precedent in a County Road Commission building major infrastructure and then immediately handing it off to the state. The City of Muskegon did it with their Shoreline Dr project, too. It's happened more than people think.
But if that happened, would the State hand Grandview Pkwy—Front St—Munson St over to the city and county and take all trunklines out of the City of Traverse City? I doubt it. Would TC even want to maintain Grandview Parkway? It would really make the route of M-72 quite circuitous, but after the M-43/Kalamazoo Embarrasment... er... Debacle of 2019, who knows anymore? Those are just my thoughts. Let's see if the darn bridge gets built first!
The Parish Road overpass on I-75 in Bay County, 2 miles south of the Linwood exit has re-opened. I was on M-13 yesterday and decided to take Parrish Road to see if the bridge was open yet and it is. It must have re-opened a couple of months ago I haven't been in that part of Bay County in awhile up until yesterday.
Quote from: bessertc on February 26, 2023, 02:57:24 AM
Anyone who knows me knows I'm no conspiracy theorist (a high school girlfriend of mine recently reached out to me asking me if her husband's belief that "the government" was seeding the clouds so that the snow falling to the earth in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area wasn't snow at all, but actually a chemical compound that doesn't melt... :-D
Dodged that bullet! :-D
A $69 million project on U.S. 23 and Michigan Avenue south of Ann Arbor started today. U.S. 12 will be widened between Platt and Carpenter Roads. Several new loop ramps will be built at the interchange of U.S. 23 and Michigan and auxiliary lanes will be added to U.S. 23 between I-94 and Michigan.
QuoteThe Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) will be closing shoulders of US-23 between Stony Creek and I-94 beginning Wednesday for rebuilding.
The $69 million US-23 and US-12 (Michigan Avenue) improvement project includes new travel lanes on US-12 in both directions beginning just west of the Pittsfield Township police station and extending across US-23 to Carpenter Road, plus redesigned intersections and a new right-turn lane from eastbound US-12 to southbound Platt Road.
The US-23/US-12 interchange, new loop ramps are being added in the northwest and southeast quadrants to eliminate left-turn movements onto US-23. An auxiliary lane is being added in both directions on US-23 between I-94 and US-12, and the acceleration/de-acceleration lanes south of US-12 are being extended.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/02/28/us-23-project-between-stony-creek-and-i-94-in-washtenaw-county
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 18, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.
In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.
LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.
An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/
Quote from: GaryV on March 01, 2023, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 18, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.
In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.
LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.
An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/
Yep, tolls are good for you. Need to start with I-94 around Battle Creek.
Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2023, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 01, 2023, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 18, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.
In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.
LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.
An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/
Yep, tolls are good for you. Need to start with I-94 around Battle Creek.
Why is it that posters who apparently live outside of the state of Michigan and even outside of the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley areas, feel that it's necessary to tell us what's good for us here in Michigan? You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to dictate or speak for us about what is good for us. I certainly wouldn't go to the Northeast board or any other regional board and start telling you what is good for you or how your state or region should be run. I believe we're good without tolls here. We presently have about a $9 billion budget surplus. Certainly, some of that could be used to improve and build new roads. What do we need tolls for? So we can get an even bigger surplus?
I agree with Terry Shea. Those who live in Michigan (or any other state) should decide what they believe is best for their state. That includes whether or not to charge more tolls within the state. I'm sure people here in Wisconsin would have similar feelings to people in Michigan if Wisconsin's DOT proposed charging tolls on its Interstates. Wisconsin did have a toll study performed in 2016: https://wisconsindot.gov/pages/projects/solvency.aspx, but obviously it was not implemented. I'm not sure how I'd feel about charging tolls here, although I would support it if the toll money was exclusively used to maintain the tolled roadway, and not diverted to other unrelated uses.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 05, 2023, 01:38:52 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2023, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 01, 2023, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 18, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.
In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.
LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.
An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/
Yep, tolls are good for you. Need to start with I-94 around Battle Creek.
Why is it that posters who apparently live outside of the state of Michigan and even outside of the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley areas, feel that it's necessary to tell us what's good for us here in Michigan? You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to dictate or speak for us about what is good for us. I certainly wouldn't go to the Northeast board or any other regional board and start telling you what is good for you or how your state or region should be run. I believe we're good without tolls here. We presently have about a $9 billion budget surplus. Certainly, some of that could be used to improve and build new roads. What do we need tolls for? So we can get an even bigger surplus?
Pfft. Welcome to the forum. In what universe have we ever left opinions to some geographic boundary, which becomes arbitrary when taking into account interstate travel? Might want to read the Commerce Clause of the Constitution while you're at it. We are all in the same boat: The U.S.S. America...and beyond.
Perhaps you might want to take a step back and perceive more accurately the broader significance of statements made on here...or lack thereof.
But, now I truly wonder how much power I have to get the gears really turning to get tolls implemented in Michigan. Might test those waters...
Quote from: Rothman on March 05, 2023, 11:57:01 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 05, 2023, 01:38:52 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2023, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 01, 2023, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 18, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Nope. We don't need rolls here.
Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.
In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.
LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.
An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/
Yep, tolls are good for you. Need to start with I-94 around Battle Creek.
Why is it that posters who apparently live outside of the state of Michigan and even outside of the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley areas, feel that it's necessary to tell us what's good for us here in Michigan? You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to dictate or speak for us about what is good for us. I certainly wouldn't go to the Northeast board or any other regional board and start telling you what is good for you or how your state or region should be run. I believe we're good without tolls here. We presently have about a $9 billion budget surplus. Certainly, some of that could be used to improve and build new roads. What do we need tolls for? So we can get an even bigger surplus?
Pfft. Welcome to the forum. In what universe have we ever left opinions to some geographic boundary, which becomes arbitrary when taking into account interstate travel? Might want to read the Commerce Clause of the Constitution while you're at it. We are all in the same boat: The U.S.S. America...and beyond.
Perhaps you might want to take a step back and perceive more accurately the broader significance of statements made on here...or lack thereof.
But, now I truly wonder how much power I have to get the gears really turning to get tolls implemented in Michigan. Might test those waters...
I said you are entitled to your opinion, and you are. But when I, a taxpaying, voting resident of Michigan gave my opinion, which was merely common sense and backed up by MDOT and other sources, I was told "citation needed." You and others don't have to agree with my opinion. You and others don't have to like my opinion. You and others don't have to agree with what is common sense. You and others are free to express your opinion on this matter or any others. But please knock off the condescending, Hollier than thou, "I know better than you, I know what's good for you and I'm going to dictate to you how your state should be run, because I'm a tyrant wannabee" nonsense. Especially when such edicts come from someone who apparently lives in a state that has the highest overall taxes in the country, still feels that it's necessary to charge tolls on some of its highways and despite all that revenue has about a $3 billion dollar deficit, while we have a $9 billion dollar surplus, despite having much lower taxes and no tolls except for border crossings and one rather long bridge. If you want to push for even higher taxes in your state, push to have every square inch of roadway in your state tolled, or whatever, have at it. I'll leave you alone and not interfere. Maybe you can brainwash a few lost souls into joining you. But I'm not about to let some outsider, from what I believe to be by far the biggest taxpayer money wasting state in America, run roughshod and bully people from my state and region into submission. Once again, you're entitled to your opinion and so am I, and so is everyone else. We can agree to disagree and/or we can discuss it rationally. But I am not going to have my opinion dismissed, I am not going to be talked down to, I am not going to be bullied and I am not going to cower to such a hypocritical mindset. And I will stand up for every person wishing to express his/her opinion here no matter what it is, including you. But these tyrannical edicts must stop.
https://www.silive.com/news/2022/03/study-reveals-us-states-with-highest-taxes-heres-where-new-york-ranks.html
https://www.rochesterfirst.com/new-york-state/new-york-is-2022s-state-with-the-most-tax-burden/
Lord Carhorn's law: As an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a Wallethub ranking approaches 1.
Your first link is a Wallethub ranking.
So...because my state is running a budget deficit, it means that I can't have an opinion on tolling in Michigan. That's a non sequitur.
More than one person pointed out the problem with your source, which was just a tightrope-walking PR brochure by MDOT. Got a shrug from us due to the lack of actual analysis therein and the mushy language used.
Like I said, instead of protesting into the void of insignificance here, you've done nothing but make me think what influence an out-of-stater, or a good group thereof, could have on the issue of tolling in Michigan.
The Michigan Infrastructure and Transportation Association released a report today that Michigan faces a $3.9 billion deficit when it comes to road funding. I think in the long run a mix of options will be needed to fix Michigan's roads. Whether that includes higher fuel taxes, local option sales taxes or tolls, we will have to wait to find out.
Report estimates up to $3.9B funding gap for Michigan roads, floats tax increaseQuoteThe funding gap is based on new assessments that put Michigan's transportation network costs higher than previously believed – between $9 billion and $16.7 billion annually to operate and maintain, with the upper end depending on the amount of deferred maintenance. The estimates are higher than those prepared by the Michigan Department of Transportation because the plan looked at road rebuilds that would last 50 years instead of a 20-year design life.The study conducted by Lansing-based Public Sector Consultants was commissioned by the Michigan Infrastructure and Transportation Association, a trade group that represents road construction companies.
"I recognize that our model puts forward a number that is a much larger investment than previous reports but that shouldn't surprise you," said Maggie Pallone, vice president for Public Sector Consultants. "Our road system is aging and it needs work." Closing the revenue gap would cost between $285 and $535 annually for every adult in Michigan, the report said.
Groups present at a Tuesday press conference detailing the PSC report's fidning – including MITA, the Michigan Chamber of Commerce, the County Road Association of Michigan, the Detroit Regional Chamber and the Michigan Municipal League – said they would be working with state leaders to develop a solution.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/03/07/report-michigan-roads-face-funding-deficit-without-higher-taxes-public-sector-consultants/69976681007/
If they do increase taxes, let's hope the tax money is used to fix the roads, and not diverted to non-road projects.
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
We have heard the fix the roads crap in Michigan for a generation. Snyder claimed he was going to work on fixing the roads in his second term which ran from 2015-2019. Where did all that money go? Because it certainly didn't go to fix the roads. I live in Michigan and criss cross the state on a regular basis and can tell you that the roads might seem like they are getting fixed but those are pretty much only MDOT roads that they normally work on every summer in the first place. I haven't noticed any more construction than summers in the past 40 years it's about the same.
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:53:54 PM
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
Wrong! There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads! Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads. This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 08, 2023, 03:29:29 PM
We have heard the fix the roads crap in Michigan for a generation. Snyder claimed he was going to work on fixing the roads in his second term which ran from 2015-2019. Where did all that money go? Because it certainly didn't go to fix the roads. I live in Michigan and criss cross the state on a regular basis and can tell you that the roads might seem like they are getting fixed but those are pretty much only MDOT roads that they normally work on every summer in the first place. I haven't noticed any more construction than summers in the past 40 years it's about the same.
It goes back even further than that. Granholm, Engler and probably even Blanchard and Milliken all promised to fix the roads. In 2015 a gas tax increase was indeed implemented but those extra funds seemingly keep getting diverted one way or another. There was an additional 1.4 cents/gallon gas tax implemented earlier this year. Interestingly, a good portion of school funding comes from gas tax revenue, and school funding is showing a $4.1 billion dollar surplus in the current budget. One would think that a good portion of that surplus could be used to fix and build roads.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 12:23:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:53:54 PM
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
Wrong! There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads! Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads. This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/
Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 06:58:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 12:23:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:53:54 PM
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
Wrong! There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads! Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads. This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/
Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.
No, it's not the same thing! Out state government is running a $9 billion budget surplus! Obviously, we pay more than enough taxes and tolls certainly are not necessary. It's simply a matter of re-prioritizing the budgeting process and sorting out where it's being spent. School funding is showing an excess of $4.1 billion and a good portion of school funding comes from diverted fuel taxes! We don't need more taxes. We don't need tolls. We need to keep fuel tax monies going exclusively to roads. But you really shouldn't be worried about our state when the state that employs you is currently running a $3 billion budget deficit, is over $160 billion in debt and projected to be over $200 billion in debt by 2027, despite all the massive taxes and tolls you pay there!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/305318/new-york-state-debt/
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 07, 2023, 08:50:28 PM
If they do increase taxes, let's hope the tax money is used to fix the roads, and not diverted to non-road projects.
Actually, they're talking about lowering the income tax rate from 4.25% to 4.05%. But they've been saying that for years, so I'll believe it when it happens.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 11:00:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 06:58:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 12:23:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:53:54 PM
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
Wrong! There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads! Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads. This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/
Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.
No, it's not the same thing! Out state government is running a $9 billion budget surplus! Obviously, we pay more than enough taxes and tolls certainly are not necessary. It's simply a matter of re-prioritizing the budgeting process and sorting out where it's being spent. School funding is showing an excess of $4.1 billion and a good portion of school funding comes from diverted fuel taxes! We don't need more taxes. We don't need tolls. We need to keep fuel tax monies going exclusively to roads. But you really shouldn't be worried about our state when the state that employs you is currently running a $3 billion budget deficit, is over $160 billion in debt and projected to be over $200 billion in debt by 2027, despite all the massive taxes and tolls you pay there!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/305318/new-york-state-debt/
If you have to re-prioritize, there's not enough funding to do everything, the surplus is really just a charade given MI's needs across the board and roads are not a priority in MI. Therefore, you need more revenue to pay for roads.
Time to toll Battle Creek.
Toll Battle Creek for what? Battle Creek is a city not a highway.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 10, 2023, 06:07:46 AM
Toll Battle Creek for what? Battle Creek is a city not a highway.
Toll them for highway funds. Sort of like how a lot of major roads to get into NYC are tolled.
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 11:19:10 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 11:00:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 06:58:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 12:23:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:53:54 PM
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
Wrong! There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads! Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads. This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/
Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.
No, it's not the same thing! Out state government is running a $9 billion budget surplus! Obviously, we pay more than enough taxes and tolls certainly are not necessary. It's simply a matter of re-prioritizing the budgeting process and sorting out where it's being spent. School funding is showing an excess of $4.1 billion and a good portion of school funding comes from diverted fuel taxes! We don't need more taxes. We don't need tolls. We need to keep fuel tax monies going exclusively to roads. But you really shouldn't be worried about our state when the state that employs you is currently running a $3 billion budget deficit, is over $160 billion in debt and projected to be over $200 billion in debt by 2027, despite all the massive taxes and tolls you pay there!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/305318/new-york-state-debt/
If you have to re-prioritize, there's not enough funding to do everything, the surplus is really just a charade given MI's needs across the board and roads are not a priority in MI. Therefore, you need more revenue to pay for roads.
Time to toll Battle Creek.
Not enough money in that. Toll Ann Arbor. Every road leading there, but only inbound. It costs you to get there but it's free to leave.
Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2023, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 10, 2023, 06:07:46 AM
Toll Battle Creek for what? Battle Creek is a city not a highway.
Toll them for highway funds. Sort of like how a lot of major roads to get into NYC are tolled.
Battle Creek isn't even comparable to NYC.
I have a better idea. Let's toll every Ohio license plate at the border.
You know one thing I'm getting sick and tired of. That'd be Michigan winters. This winter has been stupid. It snows, melts, snows again, melts again, snows again, melts again seriously this state sucks in the winter. Like oh it's winter time in Michigan it's gotta snow, we gotta have snow on the ground. I wish I was in Texas right now.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on March 10, 2023, 07:05:20 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 11:19:10 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 11:00:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 06:58:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 12:23:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:53:54 PM
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
Wrong! There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads! Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads. This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/
Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.
No, it's not the same thing! Out state government is running a $9 billion budget surplus! Obviously, we pay more than enough taxes and tolls certainly are not necessary. It's simply a matter of re-prioritizing the budgeting process and sorting out where it's being spent. School funding is showing an excess of $4.1 billion and a good portion of school funding comes from diverted fuel taxes! We don't need more taxes. We don't need tolls. We need to keep fuel tax monies going exclusively to roads. But you really shouldn't be worried about our state when the state that employs you is currently running a $3 billion budget deficit, is over $160 billion in debt and projected to be over $200 billion in debt by 2027, despite all the massive taxes and tolls you pay there!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/305318/new-york-state-debt/
If you have to re-prioritize, there's not enough funding to do everything, the surplus is really just a charade given MI's needs across the board and roads are not a priority in MI. Therefore, you need more revenue to pay for roads.
Time to toll Battle Creek.
Not enough money in that. Toll Ann Arbor. Every road leading there, but only inbound. It costs you to get there but it's free to leave.
I could get behind that.
Heck, it doesn't have to be exclusive. We could do both.
Anyway, point is that MI needs more money for roads and either has to tax or toll given other political pressures on its budget.
I noticed a new roundabout at the northern terminus of M-13 at US-23 yesterday. It used to be just an overpass with loop ramps now it's a through roundabout looks a lot better without the overpass there.
Since US 23 will likely forever remain a two-lane highway between Standish and Mackinaw City, a roundabout at the M-13/US 23 intersection seems logical, at least to me.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 12, 2023, 12:46:53 PM
Since US 23 will likely forever remain a two-lane highway between Standish and Mackinaw City, a roundabout at the M-13/US 23 intersection seems logical, at least to me.
Yeah it's better than it used to be.
Eastbound I-94 in Ann Arbor between the M-14 exit and Ann Arbor-Saline Road, and Liberty Road over I-94, are closed for emergency repairs after a high-load hit today at the Liberty Road bridge.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/03/13/part-of-i-94-closes-near-ann-arbor-following-bridge-damage/70005009007/
It is beyond time to seriously lower the monetary/criminal penalty hammer on these a-holes who drive their vehicles under bridges and over railroad crossings that are clearly posted as inadequate for said vehicles.
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 11:19:10 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 11:00:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 06:58:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 12:23:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:53:54 PM
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
Wrong! There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads! Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads. This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/
Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.
No, it's not the same thing! Out state government is running a $9 billion budget surplus! Obviously, we pay more than enough taxes and tolls certainly are not necessary. It's simply a matter of re-prioritizing the budgeting process and sorting out where it's being spent. School funding is showing an excess of $4.1 billion and a good portion of school funding comes from diverted fuel taxes! We don't need more taxes. We don't need tolls. We need to keep fuel tax monies going exclusively to roads. But you really shouldn't be worried about our state when the state that employs you is currently running a $3 billion budget deficit, is over $160 billion in debt and projected to be over $200 billion in debt by 2027, despite all the massive taxes and tolls you pay there!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/305318/new-york-state-debt/
If you have to re-prioritize, there's not enough funding to do everything, the surplus is really just a charade given MI's needs across the board and roads are not a priority in MI. Therefore, you need more revenue to pay for roads.
Time to toll Battle Creek.
Whatever you say, Mr. $200 billion debt. We need to be just like New York, and have the highest taxes in the country while also having the most debt. I bow to your tyrannical thinking... not!
Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2023, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 10, 2023, 06:07:46 AM
Toll Battle Creek for what? Battle Creek is a city not a highway.
Toll them for highway funds. Sort of like how a lot of major roads to get into NYC are tolled.
Does the name Battle Creek trigger you? Does it sound too violent or something? Now if you people in New York had any smarts you'd let people into the state and/or city without tolls... and then toll the Hell out of them trying to escape the grasp of your tyrannical, tax-happy, toll-happy, God-forsaken city and/or state! :)
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 10, 2023, 07:21:19 AM
You know one thing I'm getting sick and tired of. That'd be Michigan winters. This winter has been stupid. It snows, melts, snows again, melts again, snows again, melts again seriously this state sucks in the winter. Like oh it's winter time in Michigan it's gotta snow, we gotta have snow on the ground. I wish I was in Texas right now.
Yeah. It was just announced that the Grand Rapids area may have its snowiest winter ever. That's seems unbelievable because days with snow on the ground have been quite rare. And it's been well warmer than normal.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 13, 2023, 10:33:23 PM
Eastbound I-94 in Ann Arbor between the M-14 exit and Ann Arbor-Saline Road, and Liberty Road over I-94, are closed for emergency repairs after a high-load hit today at the Liberty Road bridge.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/03/13/part-of-i-94-closes-near-ann-arbor-following-bridge-damage/70005009007/
It is beyond time to seriously lower the monetary/criminal penalty hammer on these a-holes who drive their vehicles under bridges and over railroad crossings that are clearly posted as inadequate for said vehicles.
Aw c'mon man! He couldn't have missed by more than a foot or 2! :)
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 12, 2023, 08:58:55 AM
I noticed a new roundabout at the northern terminus of M-13 at US-23 yesterday. It used to be just an overpass with loop ramps now it's a through roundabout looks a lot better without the overpass there.
Wait... are you saying they removed the overpass and replaced it with a roundabout? What's the sense in that?
Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2023, 08:29:58 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on March 10, 2023, 07:05:20 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 11:19:10 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 11:00:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 06:58:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 09, 2023, 12:23:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:53:54 PM
Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.
Wrong! There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads! Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads. This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/
Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.
No, it's not the same thing! Out state government is running a $9 billion budget surplus! Obviously, we pay more than enough taxes and tolls certainly are not necessary. It's simply a matter of re-prioritizing the budgeting process and sorting out where it's being spent. School funding is showing an excess of $4.1 billion and a good portion of school funding comes from diverted fuel taxes! We don't need more taxes. We don't need tolls. We need to keep fuel tax monies going exclusively to roads. But you really shouldn't be worried about our state when the state that employs you is currently running a $3 billion budget deficit, is over $160 billion in debt and projected to be over $200 billion in debt by 2027, despite all the massive taxes and tolls you pay there!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/305318/new-york-state-debt/
If you have to re-prioritize, there's not enough funding to do everything, the surplus is really just a charade given MI's needs across the board and roads are not a priority in MI. Therefore, you need more revenue to pay for roads.
Time to toll Battle Creek.
Not enough money in that. Toll Ann Arbor. Every road leading there, but only inbound. It costs you to get there but it's free to leave.
I could get behind that.
Heck, it doesn't have to be exclusive. We could do both.
Anyway, point is that MI needs more money for roads and either has to tax or toll given other political pressures on its budget.
Well fortunately, you aren't the Michigan Tyrantasoreass (although it sure sounds like you would like to be) and you have no say in what goes on here whatsoever. If you ever visit our state, please feel free to stop by Lansing and pay all the voluntary tolls your little heart desires. :-D
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 14, 2023, 01:16:05 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 10, 2023, 07:21:19 AM
You know one thing I'm getting sick and tired of. That'd be Michigan winters. This winter has been stupid. It snows, melts, snows again, melts again, snows again, melts again seriously this state sucks in the winter. Like oh it's winter time in Michigan it's gotta snow, we gotta have snow on the ground. I wish I was in Texas right now.
Yeah. It was just announced that the Grand Rapids area may have its snowiest winter ever. That's seems unbelievable because days with snow on the ground have been quite rare. And it's been well warmer than normal.
Grand Rapids gets an average of 75 inches per year, on January 13th they were at 68 inches which at that point was 31 inches more than normal. But here's the kicker they say Detroit had only received 7 inches of snow for the entire season on January 13th. The totals are all over the place but it seems strange that Grand Rapids would get that much more snow than Detroit. But then again I think Grand Rapids is right in the path of lake effect snow.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 14, 2023, 01:12:09 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2023, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 10, 2023, 06:07:46 AM
Toll Battle Creek for what? Battle Creek is a city not a highway.
Toll them for highway funds. Sort of like how a lot of major roads to get into NYC are tolled.
Does the name Battle Creek trigger you? Does it sound too violent or something? Now if you people in New York had any smarts you'd let people into the state and/or city without tolls... and then toll the Hell out of them trying to escape the grasp of your tyrannical, tax-happy, toll-happy, God-forsaken city and/or state! :)
I don't think I'm the one that's triggered...
In NYC they do toll you as you are coming into the city but when you are leaving you don't pay a toll. The toll of course is off set as if you paid in both directions it's like $17 to cross the GWB. Even our toll bridges don't cost that much, for a round trip over the Mackinac Bridge it's $8. I think the Ambassador Bridge is like $7 to cross in each direction which is more expensive than the tunnel, Bluewater Bridge and International Bridge.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 14, 2023, 01:20:04 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 12, 2023, 08:58:55 AM
I noticed a new roundabout at the northern terminus of M-13 at US-23 yesterday. It used to be just an overpass with loop ramps now it's a through roundabout looks a lot better without the overpass there.
Wait... are you saying they removed the overpass and replaced it with a roundabout? What's the sense in that?
I don't know for a fact the reason, but
if that bridge needed work then MDOT
might have decided the better investment was to remove it. A US-23 freeway extension isn't going to happen.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 14, 2023, 07:27:41 AM
In NYC they do toll you as you are coming into the city but when you are leaving you don't pay a toll. The toll of course is off set as if you paid in both directions it's like $17 to cross the GWB. Even our toll bridges don't cost that much, for a round trip over the Mackinac Bridge it's $8. I think the Ambassador Bridge is like $7 to cross in each direction which is more expensive than the tunnel, Bluewater Bridge and International Bridge.
Hm. You're right. MI had better toll both directions.
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 14, 2023, 07:27:41 AM
In NYC they do toll you as you are coming into the city but when you are leaving you don't pay a toll. The toll of course is off set as if you paid in both directions it's like $17 to cross the GWB. Even our toll bridges don't cost that much, for a round trip over the Mackinac Bridge it's $8. I think the Ambassador Bridge is like $7 to cross in each direction which is more expensive than the tunnel, Bluewater Bridge and International Bridge.
Hm. You're right. MI had better toll both directions.
I very highly doubt Michigan will ever toll their roads so they won't even be tolled in one direction.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 14, 2023, 08:58:42 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 14, 2023, 01:20:04 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 12, 2023, 08:58:55 AM
I noticed a new roundabout at the northern terminus of M-13 at US-23 yesterday. It used to be just an overpass with loop ramps now it's a through roundabout looks a lot better without the overpass there.
Wait... are you saying they removed the overpass and replaced it with a roundabout? What's the sense in that?
I don't know for a fact the reason, but if that bridge needed work then MDOT might have decided the better investment was to remove it. A US-23 freeway extension isn't going to happen.
It was an old overpass.
This is the past/present configurations on Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9509262,-83.9664833,982m/data=!3m1!1e3 for overhead; https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9501701,-83.9738689,3a,75y,93.64h,93.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syBPlu8xOkMsQcHAfcj_wMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 for Street View. The last Street View is dated September 2019, so one will have to wait to get a Street View image of the roundabout.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 14, 2023, 04:49:10 PM
This is the past/present configurations on Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9509262,-83.9664833,982m/data=!3m1!1e3 for overhead; https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9501701,-83.9738689,3a,75y,93.64h,93.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syBPlu8xOkMsQcHAfcj_wMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 for Street View. The last Street View is dated September 2019, so one will have to wait to get a Street View image of the roundabout.
I've already driven through it so already seen it myself.
Always a sad day to see an interchange removed and replaced with an at-grade intersection.
There's more to come. US-12 at M-51 and US-12 @ M-60 in Niles are both slated to be replaced with at-grade intersections in the coming years.
None of these were ever meant to be there for these short bypasses; they were to be extended as freeways for far longer distances.
Here's another intersection that had a bridge removed and not replaced, likely to save costs (US-12 & Business US-12 east of Ypsilanti).
Before:
(https://i.imgur.com/n4IRBVg.jpg)
After:
(https://i.imgur.com/OONzxzq.jpg)
Removal of many of these removals wouldn't be necessary if the state of Michigan knew how to budget correctly.
One could also argue the removals would not be necessary had Michigan not overbuilt in a few places decades ago.
But that of course ignores the trends planners were observing in the post-war era. They had every reason to believe Michigan would keep adding millions of taxpayers for decades, so not only would they be able to pay to maintain their roads, they'd better invest in building stuff now to stay ahead of demand. It was not obvious the state's population was about to plateau and several of its major cities were about to decline.
Here we are a lifetime removed from that optimistic era and there are hard choices to make. The interchange built for a cancelled freeway or a closed manufacturing plant no longer has the traffic demand, so when it comes time to replace the bridges involved, it's just cheaper to downgrade the junction.
We've done the same thing in a few places here on the other side of Lake Michigan with quirky old legacy interchanges downgraded to at-grades. The north end of US 51, for example, was this neat, if out of place, trumpet interchange that hearkened back to headier times up in the Snow Belt when iron was still coming out the ground and politicos were eager to get their share of highway dough.
Quote from: catch22 on March 15, 2023, 09:24:23 AM
Here's another intersection that had a bridge removed and not replaced, likely to save costs (US-12 & Business US-12 east of Ypsilanti).
Before:
(https://i.imgur.com/n4IRBVg.jpg)
After:
(https://i.imgur.com/OONzxzq.jpg)
That whole area by Willow Run has seen some very sad changes in recent years. At least the triple level interchanges were saved by the ACM (and hopefully will thus be preserved for a long time to come) and the removal of the publicly accessible freeway-like attributes of US-12 and Wiard Rd is offset a little bit by the ACM test track "freeway."
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 15, 2023, 11:56:44 AM
One could also argue the removals would not be necessary had Michigan not overbuilt in a few places decades ago.
But that of course ignores the trends planners were observing in the post-war era. They had every reason to believe Michigan would keep adding millions of taxpayers for decades, so not only would they be able to pay to maintain their roads, they'd better invest in building stuff now to stay ahead of demand. It was not obvious the state's population was about to plateau and several of its major cities were about to decline.
1970 was pretty much the point that massive population increases ended. Every decade prior, population in Michigan increased 15 to 30%. Ever since, it's been low single digits. The entire state had a population of 8.9 million in 1970, and 10.1 million in 2020. Michigan ranked #7 in 1970, but only #10 in 2020. That's pretty much on par with the rest of the Great Lakes region, however, where every single Midwest and Northeast state had low or stagnant population growth while the south and west increased their population substantially.
So, yeah, MDOT is being more selective about where to put massive overpasses and elaborate interchanges. They're trying not to sink major investments into corridors that aren't seeing rising levels of accidents or traffic counts. US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca is one example where planners have decided massive investment is not warranted, and instead has seen a bunch of Band-Aids to eke out another decade or two before a full rebuild is necessary.
The Grand Rapids region is the outlier, with Kent and Ottawa counties growing 10-20% per decade. It's not surprising that MDOT has put more investments into this region in the past 20 years, with the building of the M-6 freeway and M-231 Grand River crossing, plus select widening of US-131. If the trends continue, the pressure to bypass Holland with a new-alignment US-31 will become more evident.
Elsewhere, the main reason you're seeing widening is that the roads were already overloaded, but have now come to require ground-up rebuilds and design to modern standards. There's no way I-94 in Jackson could legally have been rebuilt as its late 1940's design, or I-94 around Kalamazoo as its late 1950's design. But even then, you see the (lack of) extravagance, with Kilgore Rd rerouted to eliminate an overpass, and the interchange with US-127 rebuilt as an at-grade affair instead of a freeway-to-freeway interchange.
I'll throw out M-20 between Mount Pleasant and Midland as another example. No divided highway here (except for a short stretch of narrow-median boulevard in front of the Soaring Eagle casino. A 5-lane arrangement (with Two-Way Left Turn Lane) was deemed adequate for traffic loads. Given the (lack of) population growth in either Isabella or Midland counties, don't hold your breath for a M-20 freeway supplanting this 5-lane during the remainder of your lifetime.
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 15, 2023, 08:21:10 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 15, 2023, 11:56:44 AM
One could also argue the removals would not be necessary had Michigan not overbuilt in a few places decades ago.
But that of course ignores the trends planners were observing in the post-war era. They had every reason to believe Michigan would keep adding millions of taxpayers for decades, so not only would they be able to pay to maintain their roads, they'd better invest in building stuff now to stay ahead of demand. It was not obvious the state's population was about to plateau and several of its major cities were about to decline.
1970 was pretty much the point that massive population increases ended. Every decade prior, population in Michigan increased 15 to 30%. Ever since, it's been low single digits. The entire state had a population of 8.9 million in 1970, and 10.1 million in 2020. Michigan ranked #7 in 1970, but only #10 in 2020. That's pretty much on par with the rest of the Great Lakes region, however, where every single Midwest and Northeast state had low or stagnant population growth while the south and west increased their population substantially.
So, yeah, MDOT is being more selective about where to put massive overpasses and elaborate interchanges. They're trying not to sink major investments into corridors that aren't seeing rising levels of accidents or traffic counts. US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca is one example where planners have decided massive investment is not warranted, and instead has seen a bunch of Band-Aids to eke out another decade or two before a full rebuild is necessary.
The Grand Rapids region is the outlier, with Kent and Ottawa counties growing 10-20% per decade. It's not surprising that MDOT has put more investments into this region in the past 20 years, with the building of the M-6 freeway and M-231 Grand River crossing, plus select widening of US-131. If the trends continue, the pressure to bypass Holland with a new-alignment US-31 will become more evident.
Elsewhere, the main reason you're seeing widening is that the roads were already overloaded, but have now come to require ground-up rebuilds and design to modern standards. There's no way I-94 in Jackson could legally have been rebuilt as its late 1940's design, or I-94 around Kalamazoo as its late 1950's design. But even then, you see the (lack of) extravagance, with Kilgore Rd rerouted to eliminate an overpass, and the interchange with US-127 rebuilt as an at-grade affair instead of a freeway-to-freeway interchange.
I'll throw out M-20 between Mount Pleasant and Midland as another example. No divided highway here (except for a short stretch of narrow-median boulevard in front of the Soaring Eagle casino. A 5-lane arrangement (with Two-Way Left Turn Lane) was deemed adequate for traffic loads. Given the (lack of) population growth in either Isabella or Midland counties, don't hold your breath for a M-20 freeway supplanting this 5-lane during the remainder of your lifetime.
And the last half mile when you are crossing the Tittabawassee River in Midland.
I stumbled across the presentation for the upcoming U.S. 127 reconstruction and widening project in Lansing. Some highlights include adding a third lane between I-96 Road and Trowbridge Road. In addition, freeway lighting will be added between Dunckel and Trowbridge Roads. Below are some of the slides from the presentation.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52752423129_7a28a2b4c2_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2onxXwH)us127project (https://flic.kr/p/2onxXwH) by Brandon Dolley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125122378@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52751646042_da04e6788c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ontYwE)us127project2 (https://flic.kr/p/2ontYwE) by Brandon Dolley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125122378@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52752678018_c283a15daa_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2onzgim)us127project3 (https://flic.kr/p/2onzgim) by Brandon Dolley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125122378@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52752183981_4715182755_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2onwJrt)us127project4 (https://flic.kr/p/2onwJrt) by Brandon Dolley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125122378@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52751646562_b44ae1ff36_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ontYFC)us127project5 (https://flic.kr/p/2ontYFC) by Brandon Dolley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125122378@N05/), on Flickr
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/US-Route/US-127/I496-US127-Public-Mtg-Presentation.pdf?rev=74c2054c38e940e38e81b7402baeac04&hash=1008C6CD8EE1E857EC21ACE0A20D1674
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 14, 2023, 07:27:41 AM
In NYC they do toll you as you are coming into the city but when you are leaving you don't pay a toll. The toll of course is off set as if you paid in both directions it's like $17 to cross the GWB. Even our toll bridges don't cost that much, for a round trip over the Mackinac Bridge it's $8. I think the Ambassador Bridge is like $7 to cross in each direction which is more expensive than the tunnel, Bluewater Bridge and International Bridge.
Hm. You're right. MI had better toll both directions.
I think you have the terms toll and troll confused. Lurk under bridges much? :)
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 15, 2023, 08:21:10 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 15, 2023, 11:56:44 AM
One could also argue the removals would not be necessary had Michigan not overbuilt in a few places decades ago.
But that of course ignores the trends planners were observing in the post-war era. They had every reason to believe Michigan would keep adding millions of taxpayers for decades, so not only would they be able to pay to maintain their roads, they'd better invest in building stuff now to stay ahead of demand. It was not obvious the state's population was about to plateau and several of its major cities were about to decline.
1970 was pretty much the point that massive population increases ended. Every decade prior, population in Michigan increased 15 to 30%. Ever since, it's been low single digits. The entire state had a population of 8.9 million in 1970, and 10.1 million in 2020. Michigan ranked #7 in 1970, but only #10 in 2020. That's pretty much on par with the rest of the Great Lakes region, however, where every single Midwest and Northeast state had low or stagnant population growth while the south and west increased their population substantially.
So, yeah, MDOT is being more selective about where to put massive overpasses and elaborate interchanges. They're trying not to sink major investments into corridors that aren't seeing rising levels of accidents or traffic counts. US-127 between St. Johns and Ithaca is one example where planners have decided massive investment is not warranted, and instead has seen a bunch of Band-Aids to eke out another decade or two before a full rebuild is necessary.
The Grand Rapids region is the outlier, with Kent and Ottawa counties growing 10-20% per decade. It's not surprising that MDOT has put more investments into this region in the past 20 years, with the building of the M-6 freeway and M-231 Grand River crossing, plus select widening of US-131. If the trends continue, the pressure to bypass Holland with a new-alignment US-31 will become more evident.
Elsewhere, the main reason you're seeing widening is that the roads were already overloaded, but have now come to require ground-up rebuilds and design to modern standards. There's no way I-94 in Jackson could legally have been rebuilt as its late 1940's design, or I-94 around Kalamazoo as its late 1950's design. But even then, you see the (lack of) extravagance, with Kilgore Rd rerouted to eliminate an overpass, and the interchange with US-127 rebuilt as an at-grade affair instead of a freeway-to-freeway interchange.
I'll throw out M-20 between Mount Pleasant and Midland as another example. No divided highway here (except for a short stretch of narrow-median boulevard in front of the Soaring Eagle casino. A 5-lane arrangement (with Two-Way Left Turn Lane) was deemed adequate for traffic loads. Given the (lack of) population growth in either Isabella or Midland counties, don't hold your breath for a M-20 freeway supplanting this 5-lane during the remainder of your lifetime.
I travel M-20 between Mt. Pleasant and Midland at least twice a week. There is absolutely no reason to build a freeway along this stretch. In fact, most of the 5-lane stretch seems to be a case of over-building. There isn't much traffic at all between Oil City and M-30.
MDOT is hosting a public open house on March 22nd for the automated vehicle lane planned for I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. From what I gather, a lane will be built along I-94 each way. I wonder if MDOT will try to start this project next year since its planning to rebuild I-94 between Wayne Road and Beech Daly starting next year. Also, will this project tie in with the I-94 modernization project in Detroit.
QuoteThe proposed CAV corridor project is a partnership between Cavnue and MDOT and envisions creating a CAV lane along each direction of I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. The CAV lanes will enable a mix of CAVs, traditional transit, shared mobility, and personal vehicles. The proposed project will involve the installation of technology to enhance safety and efficiency for all users of the corridor. A public outreach process is underway pursuant to the requirements under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 to identify potential project impacts. Visit the CAV Corridor webpage for more information.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/mdot-events/2023/03/22/public-open-house-to-discuss-proposed-connected-and-automated-vehicle-lane-along-i-94
Quote from: afguy on March 17, 2023, 03:55:02 PM
MDOT is hosting a public open house on March 22nd for the automated vehicle lane planned for I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. From what I gather, a lane will be built along I-94 each way. I wonder if MDOT will try to start this project next year since its planning to rebuild I-94 between Wayne Road and Beech Daly starting next year. Also, will this project tie in with the I-94 modernization project in Detroit.
QuoteThe proposed CAV corridor project is a partnership between Cavnue and MDOT and envisions creating a CAV lane along each direction of I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. The CAV lanes will enable a mix of CAVs, traditional transit, shared mobility, and personal vehicles. The proposed project will involve the installation of technology to enhance safety and efficiency for all users of the corridor. A public outreach process is underway pursuant to the requirements under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 to identify potential project impacts. Visit the CAV Corridor webpage for more information.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/mdot-events/2023/03/22/public-open-house-to-discuss-proposed-connected-and-automated-vehicle-lane-along-i-94
This open house is to begin gathering public input for an upcoming environmental assessment process. I imagine it will be quite some time (read: years) before any construction actually begins. Contrary to your wonder, I wonder if this means MDOT will postpone the reconstruction planned for next year.
The one light of hope is that it appears this project is a public-private partnership, and that might accelerate the construction timetable once it proceeds (if it proceeds). A public-private partnership is the reason the current I-75 reconstruction/modernization in Oakland County is being completed in eight years instead of the 20-or-so years MDOT originally projected.
The press release says only that the corridor is "between Ann Arbor and Detroit." No specific endpoints mentioned. Whether it would stretch so far east as to be able to tie into the current I-94 Detroit modernization project is a good question. If it does, it would probably include reconstruction of I-94 between Michigan/Wyoming avenues and I-96 (unless that will be a system gap), which alone would involve the huge regulatory review hassle the current I-94 project faced. And how it might impact the timetable of the current I-94 project is a good question, as those designs are pretty much finalized and approved.
Oh, but wait: It says "creating a CAV lane along each direction" but doesn't actually say it would involve adding a lane. Maybe it would just take one of the existing lanes.
"Traditional transit, shared mobility, and personal vehicles" somehow seems redundant.
If MDOT did take away a current lane for the automated vehicles, would they prohibit non-automated vehicles from using them? If that's the case it would be a bad idea as that would reduce the number of driving lanes for general drivers and traffic along 94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor is fairly heavy as it is now. I think the best route would be to build new lanes and segregate the automated vehicles from everyone else.
Quote from: afguy on March 16, 2023, 09:01:47 PM
I stumbled across the presentation for the upcoming U.S. 127 reconstruction and widening project in Lansing. Some highlights include adding a third lane between I-96 Road and Trowbridge Road. In addition, freeway lighting will be added between Dunckel and Trowbridge Roads. Below are some of the slides from the presentation.
<pictures galore>
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/US-Route/US-127/I496-US127-Public-Mtg-Presentation.pdf?rev=74c2054c38e940e38e81b7402baeac04&hash=1008C6CD8EE1E857EC21ACE0A20D1674 (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/US-Route/US-127/I496-US127-Public-Mtg-Presentation.pdf?rev=74c2054c38e940e38e81b7402baeac04&hash=1008C6CD8EE1E857EC21ACE0A20D1674)
This is much-needed and will be a great improvement once construction is finished. It will definitely be hell from a traffic standpoint while under construction.
I'm a little surprised MDOT didn't elect to perform a full-on closure to save construction time. However, it would force very long detours and cripple Okemos Rd, Grand River Ave, Jolly Rd, and Mt. Hope with additional traffic.
Quote from: afguy on March 17, 2023, 03:55:02 PM
MDOT is hosting a public open house on March 22nd for the automated vehicle lane planned for I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. From what I gather, a lane will be built along I-94 each way. I wonder if MDOT will try to start this project next year since its planning to rebuild I-94 between Wayne Road and Beech Daly starting next year. Also, will this project tie in with the I-94 modernization project in Detroit.
QuoteThe proposed CAV corridor project is a partnership between Cavnue and MDOT and envisions creating a CAV lane along each direction of I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. The CAV lanes will enable a mix of CAVs, traditional transit, shared mobility, and personal vehicles. The proposed project will involve the installation of technology to enhance safety and efficiency for all users of the corridor. A public outreach process is underway pursuant to the requirements under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 to identify potential project impacts. Visit the CAV Corridor webpage for more information.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/mdot-events/2023/03/22/public-open-house-to-discuss-proposed-connected-and-automated-vehicle-lane-along-i-94
I've got so many questions about this that I really don't even know how to properly word them. How? Where? Why? When?
I understand this would be a "first of its kind" type of project. Of course there's going to be many unknowns to answer. But you can call me very skeptical of this.
I thought I heard of a "dream" project in Michigan where the "roadway" would recharge electric vehicles as they drove on these lanes: Is this part of the CAV project, or is this a totally different project idea?
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 18, 2023, 12:35:03 PM
I've got so many questions about this that I really don't even know how to properly word them. How? Where? Why? When?
I understand this would be a "first of its kind" type of project. Of course there's going to be many unknowns to answer. But you can call me very skeptical of this.
Yeah me too. Now that I know about it, I plan on going to the meeting and being That Guy.
Even the press release makes it sound like a total scam that would be guaranteed to be outdated before ground is even broken on it.
Saturday's accident on I-96 had 150 cars involved.
More: https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2023/03/18/interstate-96-pileup-portland-michigan-50-100-vehicles/70024824007/ (https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2023/03/18/interstate-96-pileup-portland-michigan-50-100-vehicles/70024824007/)
Sadly, these kinds of pileup accidents are way too common. I-96 gets heavy traffic, and most of that traffic is too "in the zone" to become aware of sudden changes in travel conditions, or to particularly care too much about them until they've run out of following distance and talent.
This is the kind of situation I wish the folks causing the crashes would automatically get a suspended license for. They've only had 5 months of winter to figure out snow-covered roads get slippery. Having to pay out the ass for Uber to get anywhere for a few months might smarten them up a little? Maybe?
I know... politically unpopular. But I wish the requirements were a little more stringent to get a license beyond fogging a mirror. In the meantime, I try to actively avoid freeways in those conditions.
This one happened at the Knox Road over pass on I-96 in Portland but I-94 is also prone for these kind of accidents.
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 20, 2023, 07:37:44 PM
More: https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2023/03/18/interstate-96-pileup-portland-michigan-50-100-vehicles/70024824007/ (https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2023/03/18/interstate-96-pileup-portland-michigan-50-100-vehicles/70024824007/)
Sadly, these kinds of pileup accidents are way too common. I-96 gets heavy traffic, and most of that traffic is too "in the zone" to become aware of sudden changes in travel conditions, or to particularly care too much about them until they've run out of following distance and talent.
This is the kind of situation I wish the folks causing the crashes would automatically get a suspended license for. They've only had 5 months of winter to figure out snow-covered roads get slippery. Having to pay out the ass for Uber to get anywhere for a few months might smarten them up a little? Maybe?
I know... politically unpopular. But I wish the requirements were a little more stringent to get a license beyond fogging a mirror. In the meantime, I try to actively avoid freeways in those conditions.
If there's a 150 car pileup, how is fault going to be determined? Maybe fault could be determined on the first collision, but after that, what? I might stop in time and get rear ended by the vehicle behind me that sends me into the vehicle in front of me and so on. In Michigan, we sometimes have clear roads that suddenly get icy stretches and/or clear weather that suddenly turns into zero visibility without warning. Lake effect snow bands can be a tricky thing. I've been on I-196/US-31 before where it literally alternates about every 3 miles between being completely clear and blizzard-like conditions.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2023, 11:32:25 AM
Lake effect snow bands can be a tricky thing. I've been on I-196/US-31 before where it literally alternates about every 3 miles between being completely clear and blizzard-like conditions.
I'm intimately familiar with all the back road options to get from Michigan City to Marshall without taking I-94, thanks to lake effect. I don't care if the plows don't have them as clear as I-94 - I'm not in nearly as much danger of being taken out by a fully-loaded semi whose driver is half-asleep (or otherwise distracted).
MDOT is planning replace the I-75 bridges over M-32 beginning in 2025. They are also considering modifying the interchange design as either a DDI, SPUI or traditional interchange with roundabouts.
QuoteBeginning in fall 2025, MDOT plans to replace the northbound and southbound I-75 bridges over M-32 in Gaylord and reconstruct M-32 between Edelweiss Village Parkway and Wisconsin Avenue. These bridges were built in 1961, are currently in poor condition, and will need to be replaced. This offers an opportunity to consider alternatives for this interchange that will provide safe and efficient movement of people and goods through the Gaylord area and accommodate future increased traffic.
MDOT will consider replacing the current bridges in the current configuration but will also examine other possible configurations for the interchange, including a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI), a Single-Point Urban Interchange (SPUI), or a traditional interchange with roundabouts. These options will be examined for suitability, but no design has been selected yet. MDOT and its consultant will share these options with the community for feedback and suggestions.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/i-route-construction/i75-m32-interchange-otsego-county
Quote from: afguy on March 23, 2023, 08:51:57 PM
MDOT is planning replace the I-75 bridges over M-32 beginning in 2025. They are also considering modifying the interchange design as either a DDI, SPUI or traditional interchange with roundabouts.
QuoteBeginning in fall 2025, MDOT plans to replace the northbound and southbound I-75 bridges over M-32 in Gaylord and reconstruct M-32 between Edelweiss Village Parkway and Wisconsin Avenue. These bridges were built in 1961, are currently in poor condition, and will need to be replaced. This offers an opportunity to consider alternatives for this interchange that will provide safe and efficient movement of people and goods through the Gaylord area and accommodate future increased traffic.
MDOT will consider replacing the current bridges in the current configuration but will also examine other possible configurations for the interchange, including a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI), a Single-Point Urban Interchange (SPUI), or a traditional interchange with roundabouts. These options will be examined for suitability, but no design has been selected yet. MDOT and its consultant will share these options with the community for feedback and suggestions.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/i-route-construction/i75-m32-interchange-otsego-county
As someone who made this exit the final gas stop on I-75 northbound before crossing the Bridge into the UP, this interchange needs a LOT of work, and I'm glad they are addressing it. We would have to wait through two or more light cycles to turn onto M-32 west, and if we weren't in the front of the line to turn left onto I-75 northbound, forget it. No matter which interchange configuration they go with, there has two be at least two left turn lanes in that area. Speaking of which...
Any of those interchange modifications will definitely affect the businesses immediately around the interchange. The southbound exit ramp feeds directly into Dickerson Road, which houses a Shell station and a few restaurants and hotels. The work on M-32 itself between the roads listed should help with that.
Dickerson Road and business entrances wouldn't be altered too much with a SPUI or a DDI, but I think a dogbone would be too invasive.
I've been to Gaylord once back in 2020 to see family. I'd vote for either a DDI or a SPUI, probably leaning towards a DDI in order to reduce costs. Most traffic is likely interfacing with I-75, either exiting or entering. A DDI would cut down on the number of phases while not hampering through traffic on M-32 very much.
Roundabouts would be okay, but I think would be unnecessary. It would be interesting to see how roundabout costs compare to the other two. I would expect higher capital, lower long-term.
Dickerson Road on the west side makes things more challenging through. You can't have a signalized intersection that close to a DDI. That might push the other alternatives up a bit.
M-20 (Pickard Rd) is a real mess right now between US-127 and Mission St. Construction and lane closures will be happening for the next year and a half.
Quote from: afguy on March 23, 2023, 08:51:57 PM
MDOT is planning replace the I-75 bridges over M-32 beginning in 2025. They are also considering modifying the interchange design as either a DDI, SPUI or traditional interchange with roundabouts.
That M-32 corridor west of the interchange has exploded in retail growth in recent years. I think it's safe to say MDOT never anticipated that; the interchange at exit 279 seemed intended for heavier traffic than the one at exit 282. Definitely the stretch of old 27 into downtown Gaylord is older retail development.
At exit 282, a DDI would probably be optimal and capable of whatever traffic flows Gaylord will throw at it. I think a SPUI would be a bit harder to navigate, particularly in poor conditions. I think the fine folks in Gaylord would serve the MDOT director's head on a platter if they seriously considered a dogbone here; it's too busy with incompetent drivers pretending they're "Big Rig" drivers in their mobile McMansions.
Fun fact: almost a year ago (May 20th, 2022) a EF3 tornado touched down in Gaylord just west and north of this interchange, and the cleanup is still in progress. I'm sure this fact will come up a lot as they negotiate construction timelines and determine how to handle traffic. A complete shutdown of the interchange here would be a non-starter.
Pretty cool article in today's Free Press about freeway construction in Detroit...
Free Press Flashback: The life cycle of Detroit's freeways(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2023/03/22/PDTF/e5335803-1b9b-4cca-9552-644f796351cc-DFPE11933.jpg?width=660&height=532&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
QuoteFreeways cutting through American cities are an endangered species these days, as the movement picks up steam to remove urban highways and replace them with people-friendly features.
Even in Detroit, Interstate 375 downtown appears doomed, likely to be filled in and replaced by a grade-level boulevard.
It is difficult to imagine the Motor City without freeways: Two million residents crowding on streetcars and buses; city officials constantly tweaking streets to alleviate traffic jams. Driving from Dearborn to Grosse Pointe? Before the ditches, motorists had no alternative but to spend an hour or more in crosstown traffic.You might remember those days – if you're pushing 90. In 1942, the first freeway, tiny Davison, opened in the hope it would relieve traffic congestion in central Detroit.
The big push for freeways came after World War II. Rejecting streetcars and plans for subways, officials decided that making Detroit hospitable for automobiles would be, not surprisingly, a top priority. In 1944, a slick city publication told residents: "Of all the various projects now under consideration, perhaps none is of greater importance to Detroiters than the proposed system of expressways, wider and straighter streets, and the elimination of traffic bottlenecks."
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/03/26/metro-detroit-freeways-construction/70039370007/ (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/03/26/metro-detroit-freeways-construction/70039370007/)
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on March 23, 2023, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: afguy on March 23, 2023, 08:51:57 PM
MDOT is planning replace the I-75 bridges over M-32 beginning in 2025. They are also considering modifying the interchange design as either a DDI, SPUI or traditional interchange with roundabouts.
QuoteBeginning in fall 2025, MDOT plans to replace the northbound and southbound I-75 bridges over M-32 in Gaylord and reconstruct M-32 between Edelweiss Village Parkway and Wisconsin Avenue. These bridges were built in 1961, are currently in poor condition, and will need to be replaced. This offers an opportunity to consider alternatives for this interchange that will provide safe and efficient movement of people and goods through the Gaylord area and accommodate future increased traffic.
MDOT will consider replacing the current bridges in the current configuration but will also examine other possible configurations for the interchange, including a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI), a Single-Point Urban Interchange (SPUI), or a traditional interchange with roundabouts. These options will be examined for suitability, but no design has been selected yet. MDOT and its consultant will share these options with the community for feedback and suggestions.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/i-route-construction/i75-m32-interchange-otsego-county
As someone who made this exit the final gas stop on I-75 northbound before crossing the Bridge into the UP, this interchange needs a LOT of work, and I'm glad they are addressing it. We would have to wait through two or more light cycles to turn onto M-32 west, and if we weren't in the front of the line to turn left onto I-75 northbound, forget it. No matter which interchange configuration they go with, there has two be at least two left turn lanes in that area. Speaking of which...
Any of those interchange modifications will definitely affect the businesses immediately around the interchange. The southbound exit ramp feeds directly into Dickerson Road, which houses a Shell station and a few restaurants and hotels. The work on M-32 itself between the roads listed should help with that.
Dickerson Road and business entrances wouldn't be altered too much with a SPUI or a DDI, but I think a dogbone would be too invasive.
A SPUI is three-phase; a DDI is two-phase. With a traffic signal located very close to each side of the interchange, I think a DDI would better serve traffic flow. It would also better serve a high volume of left-turn traffic.
Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed? It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then? And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)? There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning. With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish. This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on. Can't they get anything right?
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 31, 2023, 12:35:22 AM
Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed? It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then? And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)? There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning. With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish. This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on. Can't they get anything right?
Probably because they are repaving it and rebuilding 19 bridges, they are repaving it to the north end of Standish. Going south you can us it though I'm thinking maybe they are finishing up northbound then going to do southbound after. I wouldn't go through Pinconning itself to get to the casino though, take exit 181 then make a left at Mackinaw Road, go up one mile to Cody Estey Road and make a right, then take a left at Shore Road and a right at Worth Road. The only traffic light you'd deal with is at M-13 and Cody Estey.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 31, 2023, 12:35:22 AM
Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed? It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then? And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)? There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning. With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish. This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on. Can't they get anything right?
You didn't say when you went through there, but right now the MI Drive map shows both 188 exits open with a lane closure in each direction at Melita Road (just east of I-75). Maybe there was a short-term closure for bridge demolition or some such. I don't remember if this is one of the bridges with a recent truck hit.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 31, 2023, 12:35:22 AM
Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed? It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then? And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)? There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning. With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish. This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on. Can't they get anything right?
You didn't say when you went through there, but right now the MI Drive map shows both 188 exits open with a lane closure in each direction at Melita Road (just east of I-75). Maybe there was a short-term closure for bridge demolition or some such. I don't remember if this is one of the bridges with a recent truck hit.
It was closed on Sunday, March 26 when I went through there. No reason they can't put a warning before exit 181 so people can exit there.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 31, 2023, 12:35:22 AM
Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed? It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then? And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)? There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning. With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish. This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on. Can't they get anything right?
You didn't say when you went through there, but right now the MI Drive map shows both 188 exits open with a lane closure in each direction at Melita Road (just east of I-75). Maybe there was a short-term closure for bridge demolition or some such. I don't remember if this is one of the bridges with a recent truck hit.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 31, 2023, 07:52:25 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 31, 2023, 12:35:22 AM
Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed? It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then? And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)? There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning. With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish. This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on. Can't they get anything right?
Probably because they are repaving it and rebuilding 19 bridges, they are repaving it to the north end of Standish. Going south you can us it though I'm thinking maybe they are finishing up northbound then going to do southbound after. I wouldn't go through Pinconning itself to get to the casino though, take exit 181 then make a left at Mackinaw Road, go up one mile to Cody Estey Road and make a right, then take a left at Shore Road and a right at Worth Road. The only traffic light you'd deal with is at M-13 and Cody Estey.
I just don't understand why they couldn't do it last year when they already had that exit closed down for several months. And yeah, that's the route I take when I exit at 181, but there are probably a lot of people that don't know how to avoid Pinconning.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 31, 2023, 06:53:37 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 31, 2023, 12:35:22 AM
Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed? It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then? And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)? There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning. With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish. This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on. Can't they get anything right?
You didn't say when you went through there, but right now the MI Drive map shows both 188 exits open with a lane closure in each direction at Melita Road (just east of I-75). Maybe there was a short-term closure for bridge demolition or some such. I don't remember if this is one of the bridges with a recent truck hit.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 31, 2023, 07:52:25 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 31, 2023, 12:35:22 AM
Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed? It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then? And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)? There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning. With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish. This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on. Can't they get anything right?
Probably because they are repaving it and rebuilding 19 bridges, they are repaving it to the north end of Standish. Going south you can us it though I'm thinking maybe they are finishing up northbound then going to do southbound after. I wouldn't go through Pinconning itself to get to the casino though, take exit 181 then make a left at Mackinaw Road, go up one mile to Cody Estey Road and make a right, then take a left at Shore Road and a right at Worth Road. The only traffic light you'd deal with is at M-13 and Cody Estey.
I just don't understand why they couldn't do it last year when they already had that exit closed down for several months. And yeah, that's the route I take when I exit at 181, but there are probably a lot of people that don't know how to avoid Pinconning.
Same thing a few years ago with I-475 in Genesee County. They had northbound closed for an entire winter.
Beginning in late spring, MDOT will be kicking off a 3-year, $160 million resurfacing project along I-75 from M-15 to the Oakland/Genessee County Line. I honestly wish they would remove some of the remaining left lane exits, such as the ones at Exit 93 and 106.
QuoteThe multi-year project includes three years of construction and will include milling and resurfacing three lanes of I-75 in both directions, reconstruction of shoulders, culvert replacement, signs and guardrail replacement, and significant improvements on 11 bridges. The bridge work includes deck patching, overlays and some full deck replacements, painting, substructure repairs and superstructure repairs.
Beginning in May 2023 through late fall — temporary crossovers will be constructed along with bridge work and pavement repairs on northbound and southbound I-75 between M-15 and the Genesee County line.
2024 — milling and resurfacing of northbound I-75 from M-15 to the county line. There will be two lanes of northbound and southbound traffic sharing the existing southbound roadway.
2025 — milling and resurfacing of southbound I-75 from the Genesee County line to M-15. Traffic will share the existing northbound roadway.
2026 — removal of the temporary crossovers and remaining miscellaneous work.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/03/31/i-75resurfacingproject-m-15-geneseeco-line
New roundabout at M-13's northern terminus.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230402/6e2ec6b83b825994b303a7de5b6e05a1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230402/70793db005cf50e407794bfc6f41236b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230402/71734171c3a1ab82a6134c27067f54fe.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230402/2a3466329321a33deaffa1753dcda767.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230402/9e76d664d1f238668554f6e040eb71da.jpg)
The overpass made much more sense.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 02, 2023, 08:25:03 PM
The overpass made much more sense.
If the overpass was deteriorating / in poor condition, and the traffic volumes are low, there's no reason to retain it.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 02, 2023, 11:02:57 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 02, 2023, 08:25:03 PM
The overpass made much more sense.
If the overpass was deteriorating / in poor condition, and the traffic volumes are low, there's no reason to retain it.
It was an old overpass that needed to be replaced so instead of replacing it they demolished it and built the roundabout.
Here's a GSV of the old setup:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.948293,-83.9665289,3a,15y,0.93h,89.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_5Z22KQ_vVcn27ziWA8STA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 03, 2023, 07:12:11 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 02, 2023, 11:02:57 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 02, 2023, 08:25:03 PM
The overpass made much more sense.
If the overpass was deteriorating / in poor condition, and the traffic volumes are low, there's no reason to retain it.
It was an old overpass that needed to be replaced so instead of replacing it they demolished it and built the roundabout.
Here's a GSV of the old setup:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.948293,-83.9665289,3a,15y,0.93h,89.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_5Z22KQ_vVcn27ziWA8STA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Yeah, but now the roundabout needs to be replaced by sanity.
Not that this really has anything to do with the roundabout being there or the old overpass. I was thinking yesterday when I went and took those pictures that M-13 should have ended at the connector and US-23 split off I-75 at exit 164 and follow the current M-13 north to connect with current US-23 where the roundabout is. The connector between Exit 188 and M-13's northern terminus could have either been demolished and let nature take over or they could have built a two lane roadway between I-75 and the roundabout because to be honest that area really doesn't get that much traffic. You'll have people going up to Au Gres, Tawas, Oscoda, Alpena, Rogers City and so on but as we all know US-23 is not the quickest or shortest route between there and Mackinaw City that'd be I-75 but still I think US-23 should have even went up M-65's corridor and had another shoreline highway. Oh well though that will never happen but it makes more sense than what they have now IMO at least.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 03, 2023, 12:16:40 PM
Not that this really has anything to do with the roundabout being there or the old overpass. I was thinking yesterday when I went and took those pictures that M-13 should have ended at the connector and US-23 split off I-75 at exit 164 and follow the current M-13 north to connect with current US-23 where the roundabout is. The connector between Exit 188 and M-13's northern terminus could have either been demolished and let nature take over or they could have built a two lane roadway between I-75 and the roundabout because to be honest that area really doesn't get that much traffic. You'll have people going up to Au Gres, Tawas, Oscoda, Alpena, Rogers City and so on but as we all know US-23 is not the quickest or shortest route between there and Mackinaw City that'd be I-75 but still I think US-23 should have even went up M-65's corridor and had another shoreline highway. Oh well though that will never happen but it makes more sense than what they have now IMO at least.
A long business route would do.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 03, 2023, 12:16:40 PM
Not that this really has anything to do with the roundabout being there or the old overpass. I was thinking yesterday when I went and took those pictures that M-13 should have ended at the connector and US-23 split off I-75 at exit 164 and follow the current M-13 north to connect with current US-23 where the roundabout is. The connector between Exit 188 and M-13's northern terminus could have either been demolished and let nature take over or they could have built a two lane roadway between I-75 and the roundabout because to be honest that area really doesn't get that much traffic. You'll have people going up to Au Gres, Tawas, Oscoda, Alpena, Rogers City and so on but as we all know US-23 is not the quickest or shortest route between there and Mackinaw City that'd be I-75 but still I think US-23 should have even went up M-65's corridor and had another shoreline highway. Oh well though that will never happen but it makes more sense than what they have now IMO at least.
Splitting off US-23 at the Kawkawlin connector (exit 164) may make more sense now. But I think that when I-75 was built, the connector at exit 188 was included because even then the plan was to continue a US-23 freeway some distance north, as evidenced by the westbound ghost lanes and the alignment of the (now removed) eastbound bridge at the US-23/M-13 interchange. Demolishing the exit 188 connector now would be an unnecessary expenditure of limited funds. But I can see MDOT considering it when the pavement becomes too poor to feasibly continue repair and/or the exit 188 bridges over I-75 reach the end of their service life.
As for swapping the routes of US-23 and M-65 ... what's the point? Because the US route should be the fastest route between two arbitrarily-selected towns? It would seem a more plausible explanation that the US-23 designation was given to the more scenic highway (my guess; I don't know whether that really was the reason).
This is a whole lot of change-for-the-sake-of-change being thrown out there.
US-23 north of Standish didn't suddenly lose importance because MDOT figured (correctly) the existing interchange with M-13 was way overkill. I suspect the fine folks of Standish appreciate the reminder to folks that they're driving through a town and need to slow accordingly. Had MDOT finished the Standish bypass, I'd understand the keyboard warrior gnashing over a roundabout. But it never was and likely never will be, so no sense keeping it around. Since it's also (still) the through route to Oscoda and Alpena, which are at least geographically important (if not so much economically anymore), US-23 still justifies its existence despite it not being the quick way to Mackinac City.
It also seems silly to force US-23 to downgrade to a lesser highway for 30 miles of its length because "3 highway designations on 2 roads in the same area is just too damn many!" The tourist trade along M-13 probably appreciates fewer heavy trucks panic braking because they didn't see Bob and Midge trying to turn left into the cheese shop!
The M-13 connector gets enough traffic (low 5-figures) to justify remaining 4-lanes. That continues northward to Pinconning. While I would pursue 5-laning to reduce danger to left-turning traffic and to give some margin of error to wayward head-on traffic, it's fine as-is.
I'm not in a hurry to demote/remove US-23 from the map just because it shares 70 miles of pavement with I-75. It's an important enough route on its own.
A lot of flooding going on in the Saginaw and Thumb area.
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 04, 2023, 10:34:15 PM
This is a whole lot of change-for-the-sake-of-change being thrown out there.
US-23 north of Standish didn't suddenly lose importance because MDOT figured (correctly) the existing interchange with M-13 was way overkill. I suspect the fine folks of Standish appreciate the reminder to folks that they're driving through a town and need to slow accordingly. Had MDOT finished the Standish bypass, I'd understand the keyboard warrior gnashing over a roundabout. But it never was and likely never will be, so no sense keeping it around. Since it's also (still) the through route to Oscoda and Alpena, which are at least geographically important (if not so much economically anymore), US-23 still justifies its existence despite it not being the quick way to Mackinac City.
It also seems silly to force US-23 to downgrade to a lesser highway for 30 miles of its length because "3 highway designations on 2 roads in the same area is just too damn many!" The tourist trade along M-13 probably appreciates fewer heavy trucks panic braking because they didn't see Bob and Midge trying to turn left into the cheese shop!
The M-13 connector gets enough traffic (low 5-figures) to justify remaining 4-lanes. That continues northward to Pinconning. While I would pursue 5-laning to reduce danger to left-turning traffic and to give some margin of error to wayward head-on traffic, it's fine as-is.
I'm not in a hurry to demote/remove US-23 from the map just because it shares 70 miles of pavement with I-75. It's an important enough route on its own.
MDOT circa 1960: "Let's waste taxpayer money by over planning and over building."
MDOT circa 2020: "Let's waste taxpayer money tearing down what we shouldn't have been planned/built in the first place. We'll fool the taxpayers by including a merry-go-round to amuse them."
^ Either tear it down or spend even more money rehabilitating it. Tearing down was the better option.
MDOT sent out a survey for potential fixes to the I-96 / M-39 four level stack.
https://metroquestsurvey.com/5uj2
Would expanding the ramps from one lane to two be an option? Or do traffic demands not warrant it? I would be strongly against removing any of the ramps, though.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 05, 2023, 05:32:14 PM
^ Either tear it down or spend even more money rehabilitating it. Tearing down was the better option.
$37 million for a not-so-merry-go-round? I'll pass!
^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 05, 2023, 11:20:12 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 05, 2023, 05:32:14 PM
^ Either tear it down or spend even more money rehabilitating it. Tearing down was the better option.
$37 million for a not-so-merry-go-round? I'll pass!
You're going to hate that I strongly suggested they do the same to the Bus I-75 / Odpyke Rd grade seperation in Bloomfield Twp.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.60529/-83.24696
They wanted to remove an on ramp due to weaving. I said tear it all down and replace it with a roundabout.
Neither Truck and Bus nor Pontiac East Assembly are there anymore. So no need to rehab the bridges while reconfiguring the old intersection. Time to nuke it.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 06, 2023, 12:03:54 AM
^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?
How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require? And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 06, 2023, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 06, 2023, 12:03:54 AM
^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?
How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require? And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.
You're comparing a surface roundabout to a bridge structure. The maintenance is going to be far more involved and costly on a bridge vs. a roundabout.
Speaking of going in circles, these same boring arguments over roundabouts!!
Quote from: KelleyCook on April 06, 2023, 07:38:25 AM
You're going to hate that I strongly suggested they do the same to the Bus I-75 / Odpyke Rd grade seperation in Bloomfield Twp.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.60529/-83.24696
They wanted to remove an on ramp due to weaving. I said tear it all down and replace it with a roundabout.
Neither Truck and Bus nor Pontiac East Assembly are there anymore. So no need to rehab the bridges while reconfiguring the old intersection. Time to nuke it.
I'm actually not opposed to that idea, but I don't think it's so simple because it would be a five-leg roundabout with all legs carrying a decent amount of traffic. (I know there's at least one five-leg roundabout in Michigan but a couple legs carry little or nearly no traffic.) I think there's room to put a larger-than-usual roundabout a bit northeast of where BL I-75 currently overpasses Opdyke Road, but I wonder what the traffic modeling would look like. Another idea is to break it into two roundabouts -- one for Square Lake Road and Opdyke Road, and one east of there for Square Lake Road and the ramps to/from I-75.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 06, 2023, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 06, 2023, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 06, 2023, 12:03:54 AM
^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?
How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require? And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.
You're comparing a surface roundabout to a bridge structure. The maintenance is going to be far more involved and costly on a bridge vs. a roundabout.
I'm not comparing anything. You only gave one side of the equation.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 06, 2023, 10:14:46 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 06, 2023, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 06, 2023, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 06, 2023, 12:03:54 AM
^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?
How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require? And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.
You're comparing a surface roundabout to a bridge structure. The maintenance is going to be far more involved and costly on a bridge vs. a roundabout.
I'm not comparing anything. You only gave one side of the equation.
You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 06, 2023, 02:57:51 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on April 06, 2023, 07:38:25 AM
You're going to hate that I strongly suggested they do the same to the Bus I-75 / Odpyke Rd grade seperation in Bloomfield Twp.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.60529/-83.24696
They wanted to remove an on ramp due to weaving. I said tear it all down and replace it with a roundabout.
Neither Truck and Bus nor Pontiac East Assembly are there anymore. So no need to rehab the bridges while reconfiguring the old intersection. Time to nuke it.
I'm actually not opposed to that idea, but I don't think it's so simple because it would be a five-leg roundabout with all legs carrying a decent amount of traffic. (I know there's at least one five-leg roundabout in Michigan but a couple legs carry little or nearly no traffic.) I think there's room to put a larger-than-usual roundabout a bit northeast of where BL I-75 currently overpasses Opdyke Road, but I wonder what the traffic modeling would look like. Another idea is to break it into two roundabouts -- one for Square Lake Road and Opdyke Road, and one east of there for Square Lake Road and the ramps to/from I-75.
There's still plenty of business (hotels, stores, etc.) and residential development along Opdyke, and this doesn't begin to discuss the high speed of traffic exiting from I-75 onto Square Lake. Mixing a roundabout into Square Lake's traffic counts and freeway speeds at Opdyke will no doubt cause panic stops and backups that will cascade back onto I-75, making an already-congested area worse. I think putting a roundabout there is a disaster waiting to happen.
Quote from: vegas1962 on April 12, 2023, 03:56:36 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 06, 2023, 02:57:51 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on April 06, 2023, 07:38:25 AM
You're going to hate that I strongly suggested they do the same to the Bus I-75 / Odpyke Rd grade seperation in Bloomfield Twp.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.60529/-83.24696
They wanted to remove an on ramp due to weaving. I said tear it all down and replace it with a roundabout.
Neither Truck and Bus nor Pontiac East Assembly are there anymore. So no need to rehab the bridges while reconfiguring the old intersection. Time to nuke it.
I'm actually not opposed to that idea, but I don't think it's so simple because it would be a five-leg roundabout with all legs carrying a decent amount of traffic. (I know there's at least one five-leg roundabout in Michigan but a couple legs carry little or nearly no traffic.) I think there's room to put a larger-than-usual roundabout a bit northeast of where BL I-75 currently overpasses Opdyke Road, but I wonder what the traffic modeling would look like. Another idea is to break it into two roundabouts -- one for Square Lake Road and Opdyke Road, and one east of there for Square Lake Road and the ramps to/from I-75.
There's still plenty of business (hotels, stores, etc.) and residential development along Opdyke, and this doesn't begin to discuss the high speed of traffic exiting from I-75 onto Square Lake. Mixing a roundabout into Square Lake's traffic counts and freeway speeds at Opdyke will no doubt cause panic stops and backups that will cascade back onto I-75, making an already-congested area worse. I think putting a roundabout there is a disaster waiting to happen.
That westbound high-speed traffic needs to slow down somewhere, and right now a lot of it is panic stops from the backups approaching Woodward (M-1). Lotta high-speed traffic on both directions of Square Lake between Opdyke and Woodward because drivers think they're on the freeway, but you correctly note there are side streets and driveways. A roundabout might be the thing to slow things down on that stretch.
Quote from: KelleyCook on April 05, 2023, 05:42:38 PM
MDOT sent out a survey for potential fixes to the I-96 / M-39 four level stack.
https://metroquestsurvey.com/5uj2
Eliminating the westbound express exit ramp and the eastbound express entrance ramp should be a no-brainer.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 13, 2023, 09:41:06 AM
... because drivers think they're on the freeway, but you correctly note there are side streets and driveways. A roundabout might be the thing to slow things down on that stretch.
Yes, these were my thoughts exactly. Force EB drivers to slow down before they get to Woodward. For WB, dissuade people from accelerating to 70+mph through the section with houses.
I've seen multiple accidents where people are slowing down to turn into the Mulberry Square Apartments or the swim club while someone behind them clips them; presumedly because they weren't paying attention as they felt they were on a freeway.
A roundabout would make an effective transition between freeway/non-freeway.
Michigan gets $73M from feds to rebuild 85-year-old moveable Bay City bridgeQuoteThe federal government is providing Michigan with a $73 million grant toward rebuilding the moveable Lafayette Avenue Bridge over the Saginaw River in Bay City that is in such bad shape it closed 20 times for repairs last year, officials said.
The $73 million award by the Federal Highway Administration will cover the bulk of the $91.25 million rebuild project through the U.S. Department of Transportation's Bridge Investment Program, which was set up as part of the bipartisan infrastructure law enacted in 2021.Federal Highway Administrator Shailen Bhatt, who lives in Troy, said he's taken his family over the Lafayette Avenue Bridge a number of times.
"We vacation and drive through Bay City quite a bit, and I have spent a lot of time up there, so it's really exciting when we get to show how $73 million of our bridge funds are going to replace a bridge that was built in 1938 as part of the New Deal," Bhatt said.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/04/13/michigan-gets-73m-from-feds-to-rebuild-85-year-old-moveable-bay-city-bridge/70108710007/
Was the massive interchange at I-696 and Mound Road meant for a never-built freeway along Mound or is it just a really busy intersection?
There was to be a Mound Rd. Freeway, though it was never built. Some information is located here: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-053.html.
Quote from: jzn110 on April 12, 2023, 10:51:00 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 06, 2023, 10:14:46 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 06, 2023, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 06, 2023, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 06, 2023, 12:03:54 AM
^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?
How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require? And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.
You're comparing a surface roundabout to a bridge structure. The maintenance is going to be far more involved and costly on a bridge vs. a roundabout.
I'm not comparing anything. You only gave one side of the equation.
You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?
Of course I hate roundabouts! Everyone I know hates roundabouts! And I hate it when the government wastes money! Here's a roundabout that was just built near where I live. Lake Eastbrook used to be a 4-lane road. Then they wasted taxpayer money by downsizing it to a 3-lane road. Now they wasted more money downsizing it to a 2-lane boulevard with extremely narrow lanes, and an extremely stupid, narrow, not-so-merry-go-round at Sparks Dr. There's a shopping mall and a lot of businesses along this stretch. Delivery trucks have to get in and out, but boulevard and the roundabout are way too dinky for a truck to properly navigate. There are pedestrian crossings at each end of the unmerry-go-round, further complicating matters. There's a sidewalk on the mall side of the circular disaster that suddenly ends for no apparent reason. For a pedestrian heading north toward 28th St., the person would have to use the crosswalk and cross at the entrance/exit to the Pi Hole on Lake Eastbrook Blvd., use the crosswalk to cross Sparks Dr., and then use the crosswalk at the other end of the circle of insanity to continue using the sidewalk. Brilliant planning!
https://www.google.com/maps/place/3761+Lake+Eastbrook+Blvd+SE,+Grand+Rapids,+MI+49546/@42.9159399,-85.5748791,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS9ZZUkp9lHfRekpJI0AD5Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DS9ZZUkp9lHfRekpJI0AD5Q%26cb_client%3Dsearch.gws-prod.gps%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D338.78214%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x88184d6ce966eaa7:0x3bf92cc03f9f1395!2s3761+Lake+Eastbrook+Blvd+SE,+Grand+Rapids,+MI+49546!3b1!8m2!3d42.9159691!4d-85.5748286!10e5!3m5!1s0x88184d6ce966eaa7:0x3bf92cc03f9f1395!8m2!3d42.9159691!4d-85.5748286!10e5
Here's another "gem" on Pfeiffer Woods Dr!
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8928528,-85.5961204,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shEM6h3rqtYZ9rzdPjN7ibw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DhEM6h3rqtYZ9rzdPjN7ibw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D300.41745%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
I doubt Pheiffer Woods Dr. gets more than a few hundred cars/day. The other "street" (Mountain Laurel) at the stupid-go-round is nothing but a driveway that services an employee parking lot that never has more than 4-5 vehicles in it and a dumpster at the end of the drive. Once again, great planning and a total waste of taxpayer monies!
I have never seen any reason to build such a stupid contraption! I have not found any that are necessary or effective. And now I hear that in Europe they're starting to realize how ineffective they are and are adding traffic signals to them. Of course, Rothman would probably like to add toll booths to them! :)
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: jzn110 on April 12, 2023, 10:51:00 AM
You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?
Of course I hate roundabouts! Everyone I know hates roundabouts! And I hate it when the government wastes money!
In other words:
"I hate it!" = "Government waste"
"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
I doubt Pheiffer Woods Dr. gets more than a few hundred cars/day. The other "street" (Mountain Laurel) at the stupid-go-round is nothing but a driveway that services an employee parking lot that never has more than 4-5 vehicles in it and a dumpster at the end of the drive. Once again, great planning and a total waste of taxpayer monies!
That example appears to have been built apart of a development.
Was your first example a city project or a development project?
You know not all road construction is city / taxpayer dollar?
Quote
I have never seen any reason to build such a stupid contraption! I have not found any that are necessary or effective. And now I hear that in Europe they're starting to realize how ineffective they are and are adding traffic signals to them.
They definitely have their place and can be very effective, especially as a traffic-calming device and also is more efficient than, for instance, a 4 way stop that has a lot of traffic.
But to each their own, I suppose.
Quote
Of course, Rothman would probably like to add toll booths to them! :)
wut
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 13, 2023, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: jzn110 on April 12, 2023, 10:51:00 AM
You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?
Of course I hate roundabouts! Everyone I know hates roundabouts! And I hate it when the government wastes money!
In other words:
"I hate it!" = "Government waste"
"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"
You might try reading and comprehending the rest of what I posted.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2023, 10:30:48 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
I doubt Pheiffer Woods Dr. gets more than a few hundred cars/day. The other "street" (Mountain Laurel) at the stupid-go-round is nothing but a driveway that services an employee parking lot that never has more than 4-5 vehicles in it and a dumpster at the end of the drive. Once again, great planning and a total waste of taxpayer monies!
That example appears to have been built apart of a development.
Was your first example a city project or a development project?
You know not all road construction is city / taxpayer dollar?
Quote
I have never seen any reason to build such a stupid contraption! I have not found any that are necessary or effective. And now I hear that in Europe they're starting to realize how ineffective they are and are adding traffic signals to them.
They definitely have their place and can be very effective, especially as a traffic-calming device and also is more efficient than, for instance, a 4 way stop that has a lot of traffic.
But to each their own, I suppose.
Quote
Of course, Rothman would probably like to add toll booths to them! :)
wut
The first one was a City of Grand Rapids project.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 10:42:17 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 13, 2023, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: jzn110 on April 12, 2023, 10:51:00 AM
You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?
Of course I hate roundabouts! Everyone I know hates roundabouts! And I hate it when the government wastes money!
In other words:
"I hate it!" = "Government waste"
"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"
You might try reading and comprehending the rest of what I posted.
I did. You just say all the projects are wasteful, without looking at any data, besides the fact you hate roundabouts with a burning passion.
If you hate roundabouts do not and I repeat do not travel on Baldwin Road north of I-75, also don't get off at the Lee Road exit on US-23.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2023, 11:23:34 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 10:42:17 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 13, 2023, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: jzn110 on April 12, 2023, 10:51:00 AM
You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?
Of course I hate roundabouts! Everyone I know hates roundabouts! And I hate it when the government wastes money!
In other words:
"I hate it!" = "Government waste"
"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"
You might try reading and comprehending the rest of what I posted.
I did. You just say all the projects are wasteful, without looking at any data, besides the fact you hate roundabouts with a burning passion.
First off, I was responding to JREwing78, not to you. I had no problem with what you had posted. Now I do, because both you and JREwing78 appear to be deliberately misconstruing what I stated and/or deliberately editing my comments to remove context. To be clear, yes, I generally hate roundabouts. I used the closest roundabouts to where I live as examples of why I and probably 95% of the residents in this area hate them so much. That's not to say that an unmerry-go-round that is properly designed and constructed can't work in certain locations and situations, but the whole concept is being used as a catch all. They're building them where they are certainly not necessary, needed, wanted or make any sense. There was absolutely no reason for that Pfeiffer Woods Dr. roundabout to be built, and there was absolutely no reason to waste money to narrow Lake Eastbrook Blvd from 4 lanes to 3 and then to waste more money to narrow it again from 3 lanes to 2 extremely narrow lanes, and put a dinky, narrow tight turned roundabout with entrance and exit points right on top of each other. All they've done is to waste an awful lot of money making the entire drive and/or walk much more unsafe.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 12:01:18 PM
If you hate roundabouts do not and I repeat do not travel on Baldwin Road north of I-75, also don't get off at the Lee Road exit on US-23.
I'm not sure where either location is, but if I happen to exit onto one, I'll deal with it.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 14, 2023, 02:09:50 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 12:01:18 PM
If you hate roundabouts do not and I repeat do not travel on Baldwin Road north of I-75, also don't get off at the Lee Road exit on US-23.
I'm not sure where either location is, but if I happen to exit onto one, I'll deal with it.
Exit 84 on I-75 and exit 58 on US-23.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
Delivery trucks have to get in and out, but boulevard and the roundabout are way too dinky for a truck to properly navigate. There are pedestrian crossings at each end of the unmerry-go-round, further complicating matters. There's a sidewalk on the mall side of the circular disaster that suddenly ends for no apparent reason. For a pedestrian heading north toward 28th St., the person would have to use the crosswalk and cross at the entrance/exit to the Pi Hole on Lake Eastbrook Blvd., use the crosswalk to cross Sparks Dr., and then use the crosswalk at the other end of the circle of insanity to continue using the sidewalk. Brilliant planning!
The roundabout has a very wide truck apron and depressed splitter islands for larger trucks to drive over, so I don't see the issue there. However, I agree with you on the sidewalk. It's a poor design to force a pedestrian to have to cross three legs of the roundabout (six crosswalks) when a sidewalk on the west side would require zero crossings and a much shorter distance. There's a bit of a grade differential to the parking lot, but maybe a small retaining wall with a railing could've worked?
MDOT has launched a study of the U.S. 23 corridor in Ann Arbor between I-94 and M-14. While no concrete alternatives have been announced, I believe MDOT is leaning toward adding a third lane. This widening is totally overdue as this section of freeway always backs up during the morning and afternoon rush hour.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/traffic-and-environmental-linkages-studies/us-23-improvement-project-study-ann-arbor
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 14, 2023, 02:03:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2023, 11:23:34 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 10:42:17 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 13, 2023, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: jzn110 on April 12, 2023, 10:51:00 AM
You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?
Of course I hate roundabouts! Everyone I know hates roundabouts! And I hate it when the government wastes money!
In other words:
"I hate it!" = "Government waste"
"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"
You might try reading and comprehending the rest of what I posted.
I did. You just say all the projects are wasteful, without looking at any data, besides the fact you hate roundabouts with a burning passion.
First off, I was responding to JREwing78, not to you. I had no problem with what you had posted. Now I do, because both you and JREwing78 appear to be deliberately misconstruing what I stated and/or deliberately editing my comments to remove context. To be clear, yes, I generally hate roundabouts. I used the closest roundabouts to where I live as examples of why I and probably 95% of the residents in this area hate them so much. That's not to say that an unmerry-go-round that is properly designed and constructed can't work in certain locations and situations, but the whole concept is being used as a catch all. They're building them where they are certainly not necessary, needed, wanted or make any sense.
Without doing the engineering studies and data collection involved to verify said roundabouts are "wasteful", I can only assume that the City of Grand Rapids, while relatively affluent, is not so flush with cash they can afford to build things like roundabouts out of sheer vanity.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 14, 2023, 02:03:13 PM
There was absolutely no reason for that Pfeiffer Woods Dr. roundabout to be built, and there was absolutely no reason to waste money to narrow Lake Eastbrook Blvd from 4 lanes to 3 and then to waste more money to narrow it again from 3 lanes to 2 extremely narrow lanes, and put a dinky, narrow tight turned roundabout with entrance and exit points right on top of each other. All they've done is to waste an awful lot of money making the entire drive and/or walk much more unsafe.
Other than re-striping, what did it cost the City (of Grand Rapids) to convert a 4-lane to a 3-lane road? It doesn't appear (from the 2007 Google Street View) that they removed/replaced curbs and gutters to do it. A 4-lane to 3-lane conversion in most cases doesn't cause congestion and prevents turning traffic from being rear-ended.
For this last redo, the 2 "extremely narrow" lanes and roundabout and the raised median have a purpose - to get drivers to slow the f*** down! Notice also that they incorporated somewhere for people to walk, which wasn't there before. And I bet you it's no more congested (or not congested, by the Street View imagery), than it was before the change. Also note the 15+ years that elapsed (and the horrid roadway condition before the last redo) between these changes. The road surface was clearly used up.
It's only a "waste of money" if you can objectively show people how it's a waste. Otherwise, "That's just like, your opinion, man!"
Quote from: afguy on April 14, 2023, 06:27:45 PM
MDOT has launched a study of the U.S. 23 corridor in Ann Arbor between I-94 and M-14. While no concrete alternatives have been announced, I believe MDOT is leaning toward adding a third lane. This widening is totally overdue as this section of freeway always backs up during the morning and afternoon rush hour.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/traffic-and-environmental-linkages-studies/us-23-improvement-project-study-ann-arbor
Given its age and general condition, it's ripe for a ground-up rebuild. I would also assume, given how the I-94 widening in Jackson and Kalamazoo was handled, that it will gain a third travel lane in each direction. If MDOT was smart, they would also have a C/D lane between each exit.
Washtenaw Ave would be a good candidate for a diverging-diamond interchange or a SPUI. The diverging-diamond tends to be cheaper to build and clearer to navigate (once people understand why they're being directed to the left side), so it will likely win.
There's unlikely to be much of a change at Geddes Rd besides replacing the bridge with a taller and longer one to fit additional lanes.
Plymouth Rd is a good diverging-diamond candidate. They would need to relocate the Park & Ride, but there's room in the NE quadrant of the interchange for it, or two smaller ones in the NE and SW quadrants.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 12:01:18 PM
If you hate roundabouts do not and I repeat do not travel on Baldwin Road north of I-75, also don't get off at the Lee Road exit on US-23.
I agree with you all the way on the Lee Road Mess off US-23. I have been very close to getting hit there many times. I know this will never happen, but I wish they would remove the roundabout on Van Dyke and 18 Mile and rework the whole connection to M-53. In my opinion, that roundabout has never been safe!
MDOT needs to add a third lane to more than just that stretch of US-23. The flex lanes are stupid because they are only used during certain times of the day it should be at least three lanes in each direction through north of Ann Arbor.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 15, 2023, 06:43:48 AM
MDOT needs to add a third lane to more than just that stretch of US-23. The flex lanes are stupid because they are only used during certain times of the day it should be at least three lanes in each direction through north of Ann Arbor.
I'll be curious to see if the Democratic-majorirty legislature actually has the balls to implement a substantive fuel tax increase (and some kind of pay-per-mile on electric vehicles). Frankly, that's the only way MDOT's coffers are going to be funded sufficiently to widen the I-94, I-96, US-131, and US-23 corridors anywhere traffic counts warrant the widening.
So, far, the "Fix the Damn Roads" shtick seems to strictly mean "Fix", not "Widen", with limited exceptions for areas getting a ground-up roadway rebuild (I-94 in Kalamazoo, I-94 in Jackson, I-75 in Oakland County, etc).
Quote from: afguy on April 14, 2023, 06:27:45 PM
MDOT has launched a study of the U.S. 23 corridor in Ann Arbor between I-94 and M-14. While no concrete alternatives have been announced, I believe MDOT is leaning toward adding a third lane. This widening is totally overdue as this section of freeway always backs up during the morning and afternoon rush hour.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/traffic-and-environmental-linkages-studies/us-23-improvement-project-study-ann-arbor
Traffic during rush hour is pretty bad around Ann Arbor. Even prior the afternoon rush it gets jammed up there.
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 14, 2023, 07:54:43 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 14, 2023, 02:03:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2023, 11:23:34 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 10:42:17 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 13, 2023, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 13, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: jzn110 on April 12, 2023, 10:51:00 AM
You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?
Of course I hate roundabouts! Everyone I know hates roundabouts! And I hate it when the government wastes money!
In other words:
"I hate it!" = "Government waste"
"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"
You might try reading and comprehending the rest of what I posted.
I did. You just say all the projects are wasteful, without looking at any data, besides the fact you hate roundabouts with a burning passion.
First off, I was responding to JREwing78, not to you. I had no problem with what you had posted. Now I do, because both you and JREwing78 appear to be deliberately misconstruing what I stated and/or deliberately editing my comments to remove context. To be clear, yes, I generally hate roundabouts. I used the closest roundabouts to where I live as examples of why I and probably 95% of the residents in this area hate them so much. That's not to say that an unmerry-go-round that is properly designed and constructed can't work in certain locations and situations, but the whole concept is being used as a catch all. They're building them where they are certainly not necessary, needed, wanted or make any sense.
Without doing the engineering studies and data collection involved to verify said roundabouts are "wasteful", I can only assume that the City of Grand Rapids, while relatively affluent, is not so flush with cash they can afford to build things like roundabouts out of sheer vanity.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 14, 2023, 02:03:13 PM
There was absolutely no reason for that Pfeiffer Woods Dr. roundabout to be built, and there was absolutely no reason to waste money to narrow Lake Eastbrook Blvd from 4 lanes to 3 and then to waste more money to narrow it again from 3 lanes to 2 extremely narrow lanes, and put a dinky, narrow tight turned roundabout with entrance and exit points right on top of each other. All they've done is to waste an awful lot of money making the entire drive and/or walk much more unsafe.
Other than re-striping, what did it cost the City (of Grand Rapids) to convert a 4-lane to a 3-lane road? It doesn't appear (from the 2007 Google Street View) that they removed/replaced curbs and gutters to do it. A 4-lane to 3-lane conversion in most cases doesn't cause congestion and prevents turning traffic from being rear-ended.
For this last redo, the 2 "extremely narrow" lanes and roundabout and the raised median have a purpose - to get drivers to slow the f*** down! Notice also that they incorporated somewhere for people to walk, which wasn't there before. And I bet you it's no more congested (or not congested, by the Street View imagery), than it was before the change. Also note the 15+ years that elapsed (and the horrid roadway condition before the last redo) between these changes. The road surface was clearly used up.
It's only a "waste of money" if you can objectively show people how it's a waste. Otherwise, "That's just like, your opinion, man!"
Actually, there were sidewalks before the recent construction. And the 3-lane configuration also had bike paths which are now gone, adding to the safety issues. And it was impossible to speed through there because the pavement was the absolute worst in the state, which is saying a lot! I had to go to the Secretary of State office in the mall there last week, and pulling out onto Lake Eastbrook Blvd just north of the roundabout in an Encore was no picnic. I'm glad they finally did something about the pavement issues, but everything else they did simply made everything less safe. And although I don't have a breakdown on the construction figures, I'm sure the work was rather costly. And no, I do not believe that the City of Grand Rapids is affluent or relatively affluent by any stretch of the imagination. And yes, in my opinion, everything but the repaving was an unnecessary waste of money, making the stretch of roadway far less safe. Yes, that is my opinion. And that shouldn't be a problem because this is a forum for expressing opinions.
Quote from: jOnstar1979 on April 14, 2023, 10:33:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 12:01:18 PM
If you hate roundabouts do not and I repeat do not travel on Baldwin Road north of I-75, also don't get off at the Lee Road exit on US-23.
I agree with you all the way on the Lee Road Mess off US-23. I have been very close to getting hit there many times. I know this will never happen, but I wish they would remove the roundabout on Van Dyke and 18 Mile and rework the whole connection to M-53. In my opinion, that roundabout has never been safe!
I've never been through that one, but I believe there is one at the end of the exit ramp from Van Dyke to 26 Mile that had me afraid to pull out. Traffic was just flying through there!
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 16, 2023, 01:11:49 AM
Actually, there were sidewalks before the recent construction.
Where exactly?
QuoteAnd the 3-lane configuration also had bike paths which are now gone, adding to the safety issues.
They removed the bike lanes that were shared with the travel lane, and constructed a new multi-use path that is separated by a curb and grass buffer... how exactly did this "add to safety issues?"
QuoteI had to go to the Secretary of State office in the mall there last week, and pulling out onto Lake Eastbrook Blvd just north of the roundabout in an Encore was no picnic.
Where exactly is the issue? Having to exit, and do a U-turn at the roundabout? Having to use another exit? Roundabouts are fairly easy to navigate.
QuoteI'm glad they finally did something about the pavement issues, but everything else they did simply made everything less safe.
You still have yet to provide evidence of where they diminished safety. They added a raised median controlling access and removing several left turning conflict points, and eliminated a three-way stop, replacing it with a roundabout with less conflict points. They barrier separated bike lanes (via a curb / gutter and grass buffer) and relocated them onto a new shared used / multi-use path and eliminated conflicts between cars and bicycles.
Where in this have they diminished safety?
QuoteAnd although I don't have a breakdown on the construction figures, I'm sure the work was rather costly.
So... you're
assuming it was costly. There's no actual figure to back up that it was costly. What other aspects were involved? I did a little Googling and found that they replaced a water main on that stretch of roadway that required tearing it up. Considering the road was fully reconstructed then, how much more cost would those safety and operational improvements really have added?
Quoteeverything but the repaving was an unnecessary waste of money
Replacing a water main was a waste of money? Tearing the roadway up and fully reconstructing it - as opposed to a simple resurfacing that would just crumble in 5 years from a base that is faulty - was a waste?
Quotemaking the stretch of roadway far less safe.
How?
QuoteYes, that is my opinion. And that shouldn't be a problem because this is a forum for expressing opinions.
No one is saying it's a problem. But at the same time, this is a forum, where critical questions can be asked as well about said opinions.
Just wondering, any updates from Detroitland regarding the I-375 boulevard project? It's been several months since this development broke:
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 01:48:35 AM
$105 million dollar grand awarded for this project:
"On Sept. 15, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg and local Detroit leaders announced that Michigan won a $105 million competitive federal grant to fund the I-375 modernization project in Detroit. The project will replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an accessible boulevard, spurring economic development and linking adjacent areas of Detroit."
- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/officials-celebrate-michigan-winning-105m-for-historic-i-375/58052
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
To supplement any forthcoming answers, there is March 2023 Street View available along I-375.
Quote from: Henry on April 21, 2023, 10:17:16 AM
Just wondering, any updates from Detroitland regarding the I-375 boulevard project? It's been several months since this development broke:
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 01:48:35 AM
$105 million dollar grand awarded for this project:
"On Sept. 15, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg and local Detroit leaders announced that Michigan won a $105 million competitive federal grant to fund the I-375 modernization project in Detroit. The project will replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an accessible boulevard, spurring economic development and linking adjacent areas of Detroit."
- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/officials-celebrate-michigan-winning-105m-for-historic-i-375/58052
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
Coincidental to your asking, MDOT had an open house presentation last night that unfortunately I was not able to attend. Here are a few excerpts from the
Detroit Free Press article today (paywalled):
Quote
I-375 project in Detroit could mean big changes -- but some wonder who will benefit
Eric D. Lawrence, Detroit Free Press
... Lewis, who, along with a couple of hundred other interested people, attended a Michigan Department of Transportation open house Wednesday, doesn't necessarily envision a Walmart in the area, but he does see possibilities for what he described as upgrading the city. Count him as a fan of this project, now estimated to cost about $360 million, that epitomizes efforts to reimagine the kinds of highway building and affiliated "urban renewal" efforts in the last century blamed for targeting many minority and immigrant neighborhoods around the country.
"I don't like the idea. I love the idea," Lewis said, noting that I-375 should never have been built.
That sentiment reflects the idea expressed by numerous officials and others in recent years, including U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, that racism influenced where many U.S. highways were sited. Buttigieg, notably, announced a nearly $105 million grant for the I-375 project in September during a stop in Detroit, where Mayor Mike Duggan said he'd been advocating for years "to fill in this ditch and knit this city back together."
Turning I-375 into a street-level boulevard wouldn't recreate what was lost when Black Bottom, Paradise Valley and most of Hastings Street were removed or replaced, but a number of those at the open house said they hope the project will provide some benefits to the community, although they also worry the benefits could disproportionately benefit wealthy landowners in the city and want to prevent that from happening.
... Although the final design isn't complete, the "selected alternative" envisions six lanes for much of the route stretching south from I-75 to Atwater Street but adding cycling and pedestrian infrastructure. Project manager Jon Loree said design should be completed in 2025, with major construction possible from 2026 to 2028 although work could start in late 2025. Three years of construction is the worst-case scenario, he said, but noted that unlike some other major projects that closed to traffic to allow for a shorter construction period, vehicle access will be maintained throughout the process for this effort.
... Hill said she has concerns, including that Black-owned businesses will get pushed out, an echo of the destruction that accompanied the end of Hastings Street as a key commercial corridor for Detroit's Black community in preparation for the new highway and service drives decades ago.
... Harris said he feels the boulevard will be an improvement but he acknowledged that the new boulevard will still be a large roadway. "I do think that's too many lanes. It still feels very wide," he said, echoing comments from others who have questioned how such a wide boulevard would actually reconnect the city.
Although numerous people at the open house said they support changing I-375 to a boulevard, not everyone is necessarily a fan.
... Joe Smith, 53, who has lived in Lafayette Park since 2013 and downtown since 2009, said I-375 has divided downtown and the Lafayette Park area beautifully, providing a barrier that has protected a tree-lined section of the city. "It exists because I-375 is our moat," he said.
Smith said he loves that the current project has gotten people talking about the history of the area, specifically what happened to Black Bottom, which wasn't widely recognized, especially in the suburbs, but he's skeptical about how that discussion has been used as justification for this project. Repairing the damage can only happen with free land, Smith said, but he sees it becoming a development opportunity that a billionaire might snap up.
"What they did here, how are you going to fix that?" Smith said, referencing the people who were displaced to build I-375 and Lafayette Park.
Here is the current project website, which includes a link to yesterday's presentation: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/special-construction/i-375-project
If you watch the concept video at the bottom of that website, you'll see it shows exit signs with "M-XX" shields for the new boulevard, which suggests it will be a numbered state trunkline.
I personally wouldn't tear down 375. I would rebuild it as a freeway and build decks over the existing freeway. I don't think the 375 downgrade will be the boon everyone says it will be.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 21, 2023, 11:00:57 AM
Quote from: Henry on April 21, 2023, 10:17:16 AM
Just wondering, any updates from Detroitland regarding the I-375 boulevard project? It's been several months since this development broke:
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 01:48:35 AM
$105 million dollar grand awarded for this project:
"On Sept. 15, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg and local Detroit leaders announced that Michigan won a $105 million competitive federal grant to fund the I-375 modernization project in Detroit. The project will replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an accessible boulevard, spurring economic development and linking adjacent areas of Detroit."
- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/officials-celebrate-michigan-winning-105m-for-historic-i-375/58052
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
Just wondering... a "name change" for what? The project name ("I-375 Reconnecting Communities Project")? What it's often referred to as ("I-375 modernization project")? The name of the facility (Walter P Chrysler Freeway)? Something else?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 21, 2023, 11:00:57 AM
Coincidental to your asking, MDOT had an open house presentation last night that unfortunately I was not able to attend. Here are a few excerpts from the Detroit Free Press article today (paywalled):
<snip>
Here is the current project website, which includes a link to yesterday's presentation: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/special-construction/i-375-project
If you watch the concept video at the bottom of that website, you'll see it shows exit signs with "M-XX" shields for the new boulevard, which suggests it will be a numbered state trunkline.
Yes, MDOT has stated in the past what is now I-375 will remain a state trunkline route, as Jefferson east of Woodward Ave has long been unsigned BS I-375 and it, too, is remaining a state trunkline as well. I haven't heard any definites on the route designation, but, as I noted when I updated my I-375 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys250-696.html#I-375) on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org) website, it will
likely be M-375. I also postulated they could call it M-175 or even BS I-75, but I doubt it. I also doubt they'd extend the M-10 designation along Jefferson from Woodward east, then north along the new boulevard, since that would create two M-10 & I-75 junctions, which would be quite confusing to out-of-towners and especially create havoc for 9-1-1 emergency response.
Also on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org) website related to I-375:
- I-375 Route Map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/I-375.html)
- Downtown Detroit Trunklines Map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/DetroitDowntownTrunklines.pdf) (PDF)
- BS I-375 Route Listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwysBus96-496.html#I-375BS)
I've also updated the I-375 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys250-696.html#I-375) with the $360 million figure–it had previously been $270 million–which is a far cry from the originally-anticipated $80 million cost when this all first started. I've also added a link to the new version of the project website (the archived old site is also there). I should probably move the I-375 route listing to its own page soon, as I've been in the process of doing with the rest of the route listings on the site... for the past decade.
New interchange planned for U.S. 131, but project is on hold for fundingQuoteA project to add two interchange ramps at U.S. 131 and the U.S. 131 Business Route north of Kalamazoo is in the works, but there is no timeline for when it might be built, Michigan Department of Transportation spokesperson Nick Schirripa said.
There are currently two ramps at the interchange — one that allow business route drivers to get on U.S. 131 northbound, and one that lets U.S. 131 southbound drivers get on the business route. This potential project would add two more ramps — from northbound U.S. 131 onto the business route and from the business route onto to southbound U.S. 131 (as shown in orange on the map, above).
Local municipalities, including Oshtemo and Kalamazoo townships, have asked for the extra connection, so MDOT has designed the project. But it will sit on the shelf until there's funding, Schirripa said.
A main reason the project is requested is because it would offer more access from U.S. 131 to and from downtown from places other than West Main Street and Stadium Drive, Schirripa said
https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/2023/04/new-interchange-planned-for-us-131-but-project-is-on-hold-for-funding.html#:~:text=KALAMAZOO%2C%20MI%20%E2%80%93%20A%20new%20interchange,Transportation%20spokesperson%20Nick%20Schirripa%20said.
Quote from: afguy on April 21, 2023, 08:17:00 PM
New interchange planned for U.S. 131, but project is on hold for funding
QuoteA project to add two interchange ramps at U.S. 131 and the U.S. 131 Business Route north of Kalamazoo is in the works, but there is no timeline for when it might be built, Michigan Department of Transportation spokesperson Nick Schirripa said.
There are currently two ramps at the interchange — one that allow business route drivers to get on U.S. 131 northbound, and one that lets U.S. 131 southbound drivers get on the business route. This potential project would add two more ramps — from northbound U.S. 131 onto the business route and from the business route onto to southbound U.S. 131 (as shown in orange on the map, above).
Local municipalities, including Oshtemo and Kalamazoo townships, have asked for the extra connection, so MDOT has designed the project. But it will sit on the shelf until there's funding, Schirripa said.
A main reason the project is requested is because it would offer more access from U.S. 131 to and from downtown from places other than West Main Street and Stadium Drive, Schirripa said
https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/2023/04/new-interchange-planned-for-us-131-but-project-is-on-hold-for-funding.html#:~:text=KALAMAZOO%2C%20MI%20%E2%80%93%20A%20new%20interchange,Transportation%20spokesperson%20Nick%20Schirripa%20said.
Well, that's definitely a much more scaled-down version of what had originally been planned, which was a quasi-complete interchange at G Avenue–"quasi" in that all movements to and from mainline US-131 and G Ave were going to be offered with the exception of the nbd off-ramp to G Ave would have only been accessible from BUS US-131 coming out of Kalamazoo. This ramp would have been what facilitated the movements from nbd BUS US-131 to sbd US-131, via the new G Ave overpass to the sbd US-131 on-ramp from G Ave. Of the originally-proposed interchange plans, I liked this one the best, personally, since every time I go into the office, I use this interchange twice–once in each direction. Some of the other plans had the BUS US-131 freeway being narrowed down into a two-lane roadway that would have overpassed US-131 and continued westerly onto G Ave (with all ramps available). Yes, I'm being somewhat selfish in that I like my full-freeway-speed ramps onto and off of BUS US-131 right now and I didn't want to have to slow to 55 or 45 mph and have to make 90º turns and deal with stop signs or traffic lights. Hey, what can I say... sometimes I
do think of myself, too! :-D
Here's what I had in the Kalamazoo County GIS database until I just updated it a few minutes ago to what MDOT had on their map in the newspaper. You can see how much the plan differs, as I've georeferenced the new map into our system (that's the darker aerial image with the two lighter, thinner orange lines. The originally-proposed ramps from my system are the slightly darker and thicker orange lines. (One good thing about this new version is that the currently-undeveloped Kalamazoo Nature Center property on the southwest quadrant of the originally-proposed interchange won't be carved into by the realigned 10th St.)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2FUS-131_US-131BR_original_plan.png&hash=315b01aaa106f1b34abfebeab216025a7a12ef64)
Wasn't Business 131 (along with most of Business 94, and MI-43 through town) decommissioned within Kalamazoo save for the freeway spur in 2019? Google Maps still shows Business 131 starting and ending at W. Kalamazoo Ave., when it really starts and ends at W. Dunkley St.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 24, 2023, 12:54:02 PM
Wasn't Business 131 (along with most of Business 94, and MI-43 through town) decommissioned within Kalamazoo save for the freeway spur in 2019? Google Maps still shows Business 131 starting and ending at W. Kalamazoo Ave., when it really starts and ends at W. Dunkley St.
According to the current MDOT map (@BessertC would have better info):
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Map/State-Map/State-Map-Full.pdf?rev=8870c04507b84311b33042f77a31d953&hash=1AF678CD32B4FADA4E9BF40A738ADE6C (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Map/State-Map/State-Map-Full.pdf?rev=8870c04507b84311b33042f77a31d953&hash=1AF678CD32B4FADA4E9BF40A738ADE6C)
- BR US-131 still officially exists from the US-131 interchange along the freeway spur to Westnedge Ave, but does not enter the City of Kalamazoo
- M-43 is multiplexed with M-89 west to US-131, then with US-131 south to the existing M-43/Main St interchange (exit 38). M-43 is not designated east of US-131 at exit 38 along Main St.
- A new designation, M-343, exists on Gull Rd (former M-43) northeast to M-89 in Richland.
- M-96 and Bus. I-94 terminate at their intersection (King Hwy @ AmVet Memorial Hwy) just inside Kalamazoo city limits
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 24, 2023, 05:45:51 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 24, 2023, 12:54:02 PM
Wasn't Business 131 (along with most of Business 94, and MI-43 through town) decommissioned within Kalamazoo save for the freeway spur in 2019? Google Maps still shows Business 131 starting and ending at W. Kalamazoo Ave., when it really starts and ends at W. Dunkley St.
According to the current MDOT map (@BessertC would have better info):
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Map/State-Map/State-Map-Full.pdf?rev=8870c04507b84311b33042f77a31d953&hash=1AF678CD32B4FADA4E9BF40A738ADE6C (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Map/State-Map/State-Map-Full.pdf?rev=8870c04507b84311b33042f77a31d953&hash=1AF678CD32B4FADA4E9BF40A738ADE6C)
- BR US-131 still officially exists from the US-131 interchange along the freeway spur to Westnedge Ave, but does not enter the City of Kalamazoo
- M-43 is multiplexed with M-89 west to US-131, then with US-131 south to the existing M-43/Main St interchange (exit 38). M-43 is not designated east of US-131 at exit 38 along Main St.
- A new designation, M-343, exists on Gull Rd (former M-43) northeast to M-89 in Richland.
- M-96 and Bus. I-94 terminate at their intersection (King Hwy @ AmVet Memorial Hwy) just inside Kalamazoo city limits
Ask and ye shall receive.
Yes. The freeway spur (and the small segment of limited-access "expressway" from the end of the freeway at N Westnedge Ave southerly to the city limit) is still a trunkline route designated as BUS US-131. While MDOT likes to claim BS I-94 (Business SPUR I-94) terminates along with M-96 at the corner of King Hwy & the Amvets Memorial Pkwy–which matches what an MDOT Regional Engineer said to me first-hand back in 2019–but they ended up signing BS I-94 along King Hwy from Amvets Memorial Pkwy west and northwest to the end of the trunkline at Mills St. So, while internal MDOT GIS databases state the portion of BS I-94 from M-96 to Mills St is an "unsigned state trunkline," it's actually signed–hence the way I depict it on my website. OLD M-43 is unsigned along W Main St from Douglas St west to US-131 and OLD BL I-94(/BUS US-131) is similarly unsigned along Stadium Dr from Rambling Rd west to US-131. However, oddly enough, MDOT failed to remove the BL I-94 route markers from the concurrent stretch along US-131 between Stadium Dr and I-94, however I consider that an MDOT error and not a sign that the Business LOOP is still designated along that stretch. MDOT internal data similarly supports this conclusion.
You can see the current limits of the various routes from this map I created of the Greater Kalamazoo area (on this map, dark magenta highways are the unsigned trunkline routes):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2FKzooAreaTrunklines_2023-01.png&hash=d38f1fd5dd8c6c55189b1b13b91d209f7ef65840)
Additionally, as you can read on my
M-343 Route Listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-343.html) on how MDOT considers M-343 and M-89 to run concurrently from downtown Richland northerly to the jct with M-43 north of Richland, while signage clearly states M-343 "ENDS" in downtown Richland at jct M-89. Yet another disagreement between MDOT's GIS and mapping folks and MDOT's route-signing folks. (Makes for some fun when trying to maintain a comprehensive website about Michigan's Highway system... eh? :spin:)
I'm going to guess there's no forthcoming plans to create an interchange (partial or otherwise) at Ravine Rd or Nichols Rd from Bus US-131, which would help justify the new US-131 ramps.
Douglas Ave is a ways to backtrack from G Ave or Drake Rd to hit US-131 - those folks would probably still be better off hopping on at Main St. or D Ave. There's no ROW reserved for such a connection; Kalamazoo Twp is going to have to take several homes to make an additional interchange from Bus US-131 happen. Can it make up for it in additional development? Who knows...
I also don't see where Oshtemo Twp gains anything from these ramps. An exit at G Ave or GH Ave would be far more useful than these ramps.
It's also telling that MDOT isn't jumping up and down to build it. Back prior to the development along the Bus US-131 ROW, when an exit to Nichols Rd would've been cheap to build, I could see the usefulness of the additional ramps. But now? I don't see the point.
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 24, 2023, 07:32:47 PM
I'm going to guess there's no forthcoming plans to create an interchange (partial or otherwise) at Ravine Rd or Nichols Rd from Bus US-131, which would help justify the new US-131 ramps.
Douglas Ave is a ways to backtrack from G Ave or Drake Rd to hit US-131 - those folks would probably still be better off hopping on at Main St. or D Ave. There's no ROW reserved for such a connection; Kalamazoo Twp is going to have to take several homes to make an additional interchange from Bus US-131 happen. Can it make up for it in additional development? Who knows...
I also don't see where Oshtemo Twp gains anything from these ramps. An exit at G Ave or GH Ave would be far more useful than these ramps.
It's also telling that MDOT isn't jumping up and down to build it. Back prior to the development along the Bus US-131 ROW, when an exit to Nichols Rd would've been cheap to build, I could see the usefulness of the additional ramps. But now? I don't see the point.
Well, this is where some of the alternate plans, including the planned interchange we had in our system at the County until this morning, would've been helpful. If there was a quasi-full interchange with G Ave, you would've had your connection with Ravine Rd, 12th St and Drake Rd. That's why I was pulling for that version versus just completing the interchange with the two ramps they seem to be wanting to put in at this point. MDOT recently put traffic lights at both off-ramp terminals at D Ave, in part due to the increased truck traffic because of the new Loves truckstop, but also because there's so much traffic getting on and off at that interchange. It's becoming like the same issue as the Milford Rd exit on I-96 in western Oakland County.
With the article didn't report on and what MDOT failed to mention, for some odd reason, is that MDOT continues to state to local governments in the area that if they come up with all or most of the funding for the interchange, MDOT will construct it. Now. What's also being lost is there are several major industrial developments on the north side of Kalamazoo that are drastically increasing their truck shipments, which is part of the reason all of the local governments and the County are on board with completing this interchange. And when MDOT states the traffic volumes aren't there, that's due, in part, to the fact that many people can't use this route because the ramps aren't there! It's a Catch 22. When you complete the interchange, traffic volumes along that freeway spur will absolutely increase! The major industry on the north side has already stated they would be happy to redirect their trucks out of downtown Kalamazoo if there was a complete interchange there. It's puzzling to hear MDOT using this type of reasoning.
Quote from: bessertc on April 21, 2023, 12:57:00 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 21, 2023, 11:00:57 AM
Quote from: Henry on April 21, 2023, 10:17:16 AM
Just wondering, any updates from Detroitland regarding the I-375 boulevard project? It's been several months since this development broke:
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 01:48:35 AM
$105 million dollar grand awarded for this project:
"On Sept. 15, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg and local Detroit leaders announced that Michigan won a $105 million competitive federal grant to fund the I-375 modernization project in Detroit. The project will replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an accessible boulevard, spurring economic development and linking adjacent areas of Detroit."
- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/officials-celebrate-michigan-winning-105m-for-historic-i-375/58052
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
Just wondering... a "name change" for what? The project name ("I-375 Reconnecting Communities Project")? What it's often referred to as ("I-375 modernization project")? The name of the facility (Walter P Chrysler Freeway)? Something else?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 21, 2023, 11:00:57 AM
Coincidental to your asking, MDOT had an open house presentation last night that unfortunately I was not able to attend. Here are a few excerpts from the Detroit Free Press article today (paywalled):
<snip>
Here is the current project website, which includes a link to yesterday's presentation: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/special-construction/i-375-project
If you watch the concept video at the bottom of that website, you'll see it shows exit signs with "M-XX" shields for the new boulevard, which suggests it will be a numbered state trunkline.
Yes, MDOT has stated in the past what is now I-375 will remain a state trunkline route, as Jefferson east of Woodward Ave has long been unsigned BS I-375 and it, too, is remaining a state trunkline as well. I haven't heard any definites on the route designation, but, as I noted when I updated my I-375 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys250-696.html#I-375) on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org) website, it will likely be M-375. I also postulated they could call it M-175 or even BS I-75, but I doubt it. I also doubt they'd extend the M-10 designation along Jefferson from Woodward east, then north along the new boulevard, since that would create two M-10 & I-75 junctions, which would be quite confusing to out-of-towners and especially create havoc for 9-1-1 emergency response.
Also on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org) website related to I-375:
- I-375 Route Map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/I-375.html)
- Downtown Detroit Trunklines Map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/DetroitDowntownTrunklines.pdf) (PDF)
- BS I-375 Route Listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwysBus96-496.html#I-375BS)
I've also updated the I-375 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys250-696.html#I-375) with the $360 million figure–it had previously been $270 million–which is a far cry from the originally-anticipated $80 million cost when this all first started. I've also added a link to the new version of the project website (the archived old site is also there). I should probably move the I-375 route listing to its own page soon, as I've been in the process of doing with the rest of the route listings on the site... for the past decade.
It is my understanding that the intent is to sign the boulevard replacing I-375 as an M route, but to the best of my knowledge, no M route number has been assigned at this time. (For context, I am someone who is involved in route numbering at MDOT.)
Quote from: bessertc on April 24, 2023, 06:17:17 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 24, 2023, 05:45:51 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 24, 2023, 12:54:02 PM
Wasn't Business 131 (along with most of Business 94, and MI-43 through town) decommissioned within Kalamazoo save for the freeway spur in 2019? Google Maps still shows Business 131 starting and ending at W. Kalamazoo Ave., when it really starts and ends at W. Dunkley St.
According to the current MDOT map (@BessertC would have better info):
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Map/State-Map/State-Map-Full.pdf?rev=8870c04507b84311b33042f77a31d953&hash=1AF678CD32B4FADA4E9BF40A738ADE6C (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Map/State-Map/State-Map-Full.pdf?rev=8870c04507b84311b33042f77a31d953&hash=1AF678CD32B4FADA4E9BF40A738ADE6C)
- BR US-131 still officially exists from the US-131 interchange along the freeway spur to Westnedge Ave, but does not enter the City of Kalamazoo
- M-43 is multiplexed with M-89 west to US-131, then with US-131 south to the existing M-43/Main St interchange (exit 38). M-43 is not designated east of US-131 at exit 38 along Main St.
- A new designation, M-343, exists on Gull Rd (former M-43) northeast to M-89 in Richland.
- M-96 and Bus. I-94 terminate at their intersection (King Hwy @ AmVet Memorial Hwy) just inside Kalamazoo city limits
Ask and ye shall receive.
Yes. The freeway spur (and the small segment of limited-access "expressway" from the end of the freeway at N Westnedge Ave southerly to the city limit) is still a trunkline route designated as BUS US-131. While MDOT likes to claim BS I-94 (Business SPUR I-94) terminates along with M-96 at the corner of King Hwy & the Amvets Memorial Pkwy–which matches what an MDOT Regional Engineer said to me first-hand back in 2019–but they ended up signing BS I-94 along King Hwy from Amvets Memorial Pkwy west and northwest to the end of the trunkline at Mills St. So, while internal MDOT GIS databases state the portion of BS I-94 from M-96 to Mills St is an "unsigned state trunkline," it's actually signed–hence the way I depict it on my website. OLD M-43 is unsigned along W Main St from Douglas St west to US-131 and OLD BL I-94(/BUS US-131) is similarly unsigned along Stadium Dr from Rambling Rd west to US-131. However, oddly enough, MDOT failed to remove the BL I-94 route markers from the concurrent stretch along US-131 between Stadium Dr and I-94, however I consider that an MDOT error and not a sign that the Business LOOP is still designated along that stretch. MDOT internal data similarly supports this conclusion.
You can see the current limits of the various routes from this map I created of the Greater Kalamazoo area (on this map, dark magenta highways are the unsigned trunkline routes):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2FKzooAreaTrunklines_2023-01.png&hash=d38f1fd5dd8c6c55189b1b13b91d209f7ef65840)
Additionally, as you can read on my M-343 Route Listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-343.html) on how MDOT considers M-343 and M-89 to run concurrently from downtown Richland northerly to the jct with M-43 north of Richland, while signage clearly states M-343 "ENDS" in downtown Richland at jct M-89. Yet another disagreement between MDOT's GIS and mapping folks and MDOT's route-signing folks. (Makes for some fun when trying to maintain a comprehensive website about Michigan's Highway system... eh? :spin:)
I can confirm that in 2019, MDOT submitted applications to the AASHTO Route Numbering Committee, and the applications were approved (originally conditionally approved and then MDOT supplied the additional information requested for approval).
The first application was for the partial elimination of I-94BL in Kalamazoo from I-94 at the west end to M-96, leaving a business spur (I-94BS). So, M-96 is the current AASHTO-approved west terminus. Here is the specific language from the application to AASHTO:
"I-94 Business Loop in Kalamazoo, MI, is being shortened (not entirely eliminated, but shortening of a route is not an available choice on the application), and the route will now be I-94 Business Spur. The current business route between I-94 (west junction) and Kings Highway (M-96) is being eliminated (the signs are being removed) because a portion of the business route was turned back to local jurisdiction in January 2019. The business route will be resigned as I-94 Business Spur (vs. Loop) between Kings Highway (M-96) and I-94 (east junction). "
The second was for the partial elimination of US-131BR in Kalamazoo from US-131 at the south end to Dunkley St, leaving US-131BR as a spur. Here is the specific language from the application to AASHTO:
"Business US 131 in Kalamazoo, MI, is being shortened (not entirely eliminated, but shortening of a route is not an available choice on the application). The current business route between US 131 (south junction) and Dunkley Street is being eliminated (the signs are being removed) because a portion of the business route was turned back to local jurisdiction in January 2019. This business route will remain signed between Dunkley Street and US-131 (north junction)."
I cannot speak to the current state of the signing in the field for these routes, that is outside my direct influence here at MDOT, but the above are the current AASHTO-approved limits for the business routes - for what that is worth.
Quote from: dpatrickallen on April 26, 2023, 02:46:07 PM
It is my understanding that the intent is to sign the boulevard replacing I-375 as an M route, but to the best of my knowledge, no M route number has been assigned at this time. (For context, I am someone who is involved in route numbering at MDOT.)
Are there suggestions to simply switching it to M-375? I feel like that's not going to happen, but the idea has surely come up, right?
Maybe they could extend M-10 east along unsigned BS 375, and then northward along the new boulevard back up to Interstate 75. The idea is likely crazy, since it could cause confusion, but if they don't number the new boulevard something like M-375, that could be one alternative.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on April 26, 2023, 05:36:10 PM
Quote from: dpatrickallen on April 26, 2023, 02:46:07 PM
It is my understanding that the intent is to sign the boulevard replacing I-375 as an M route, but to the best of my knowledge, no M route number has been assigned at this time. (For context, I am someone who is involved in route numbering at MDOT.)
Are there suggestions to simply switching it to M-375? I feel like that's not going to happen, but the idea has surely come up, right?
If I was a betting man (not to say that I'm not, TBH!), I'd say there's a good chance it will be M-375. It would retain the "375" number that people have known for 59 years, I can't see MDOT using a completely new, unrelated number (e.g. M-16 or M-7, etc.), and even with today's jurisdictional transfer of the portion of M-3 along Randolph St, and I really can't see MDOT removing the M-3 designation off Gratiot west of "375" so they could route it southerly on only a portion of the new boulevard (leaving the portion north of Gratiot to I-75 unnumbered), then westerly along Jefferson to M-10 at Randolph St. That would be quite a convoluted route (as long as we ignore BL I-94 in downtown Battle Creek or BL I-94 in southwestern Battle Creek or M-43 in the Greater Kalamazoo area... I should stop.). So, as I noted in a previous comment as well as on my I-375 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys250-696.html#I-375) on my website (http://www.michiganhighways.org/), I have a good feeling it'll be M-375.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2023, 06:57:52 PM
Maybe they could extend M-10 east along unsigned BS 375, and then northward along the new boulevard back up to Interstate 75. The idea is likely crazy, since it could cause confusion, but if they don't number the new boulevard something like M-375, that could be one alternative.
As I noted on Friday:
Quote from: bessertc on April 21, 2023, 12:57:00 PM
I also doubt they'd extend the M-10 designation along Jefferson from Woodward east, then north along the new boulevard, since that would create two M-10 & I-75 junctions, which would be quite confusing to out-of-towners and especially create havoc for 9-1-1 emergency response.
I was informed (thanks P.A.!) that, effective today, the 0.396 mile segment of M-3 in downtown Detroit along Randolph St from Jefferson Ave (M-10 and BS I-375) northerly six blocks to Gratiot Ave has been transferred to the City of Detroit. M-3 now begins at the corner of Gratiot Ave & Randolph St and creates the fifth "spur" trunkline route in downtown Detroit that begins at a random city street instead of another trunkline or natural feature. The transfer agreement, as noted on my site, includes more than $7.6 million in project funding from MDOT to the City of Detroit to reconstruct Randolph St between Jefferson and Gratiot. I've included a modified version of my Downtown Detroit Trunklines map showing the transferred section below and I've changed the following pages on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org/) website to reflect today's transfer:
- M-3 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-003.html)
- Downtown Detroit Trunklines Map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/DetroitDowntownTrunklines.pdf) (PDF)
- M-10 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-010.html)
- BS I-375 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwysBus96-496.html#I-375BS)
- BS I-375 route map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/I-375BS.html)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2FM-3_DetroitTurnback2023.png&hash=df33dc96d59c8b7c2a9b5b5523e66728f44f92fc)
Quote from: JoePCool14 on April 26, 2023, 05:36:10 PM
Quote from: dpatrickallen on April 26, 2023, 02:46:07 PM
It is my understanding that the intent is to sign the boulevard replacing I-375 as an M route, but to the best of my knowledge, no M route number has been assigned at this time. (For context, I am someone who is involved in route numbering at MDOT.)
Are there suggestions to simply switching it to M-375? I feel like that's not going to happen, but the idea has surely come up, right?
I can confirm that the MDOT Metro Region is aware that M-375 is available, but it is my understanding that no decision has yet been made. They will probably coordinate with Detroit and others on the final selection.
Could always bring back M-2 from the grave (briefly used in the 70s for Schoolcraft Road prior to the completion of I-96 through Livonia). Then downtown Detroit would have M-1, M-2 and M-3 within the area -- a nice numeric trio.
Quote from: dpatrickallen on April 26, 2023, 07:39:41 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on April 26, 2023, 05:36:10 PM
Quote from: dpatrickallen on April 26, 2023, 02:46:07 PM
It is my understanding that the intent is to sign the boulevard replacing I-375 as an M route, but to the best of my knowledge, no M route number has been assigned at this time. (For context, I am someone who is involved in route numbering at MDOT.)
Are there suggestions to simply switching it to M-375? I feel like that's not going to happen, but the idea has surely come up, right?
I can confirm that the MDOT Metro Region is aware that M-375 is available, but it is my understanding that no decision has yet been made. They will probably coordinate with Detroit and others on the final selection.
Sounds good. Personally, I'd vouch for it for the sake of consistency. But I can see someone pulling strings, outside of your control, who would want to remove that number entirely and do something completely new. Appreciate the insights!
I would hope they don't sign it any number. MDOT would be smart to turn control over to the city.
Quote from: bessertc on April 26, 2023, 07:32:10 PM
I was informed (thanks P.A.!) that, effective today, the 0.396 mile segment of M-3 in downtown Detroit along Randolph St from Jefferson Ave (M-10 and BS I-375) northerly six blocks to Gratiot Ave has been transferred to the City of Detroit. M-3 now begins at the corner of Gratiot Ave & Randolph St and creates the fifth "spur" trunkline route in downtown Detroit that begins at a random city street instead of another trunkline or natural feature. The transfer agreement, as noted on my site, includes more than $7.6 million in project funding from MDOT to the City of Detroit to reconstruct Randolph St between Jefferson and Gratiot. I've included a modified version of my Downtown Detroit Trunklines map showing the transferred section below and I've changed the following pages on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org/) website to reflect today's transfer:
- M-3 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-003.html)
- Downtown Detroit Trunklines Map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/DetroitDowntownTrunklines.pdf) (PDF)
- M-10 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-010.html)
- BS I-375 route listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwysBus96-496.html#I-375BS)
- BS I-375 route map (http://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/I-375BS.html)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michiganhighways.org%2Fetc%2FM-3_DetroitTurnback2023.png&hash=df33dc96d59c8b7c2a9b5b5523e66728f44f92fc)
On the plus side: Since the southbound M-3 ENDS signage has been missing for years, and M-3 has never been signed from Jefferson Avenue, I think MDOT/Wayne County/Detroit need do nothing to reflect this turnback.
I also reiterate the pathetic signing of these spur trunklines. The termini of US-12, M-10, and now M-3 are unsigned, and very little trailblazer signage for any of the routes on Chris' map exists anywhere on surface streets downtown (save for the TO M-1 trailblazer on the eastbound I-75 service drive that incorrectly directs such traffic south/east on M-5). If MDOT has contracted for Wayne County to maintain signage, they are paying to receive nothing.
MDOT has done a poor job of signage in downtown Detroit for years. Remember US-10 signs still being present up until about 15 years ago? US-10 had been scaled back to end at I-75 in Bay City in the 1980s.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 27, 2023, 10:56:20 PM
MDOT has done a poor job of signage in downtown Detroit for years. Remember US-10 signs still being present up until about 15 years ago? US-10 had been scaled back to end at I-75 in Bay City in the 1980s.
I believe most of the old Detroit US-10 signs were from when the City of Detroit maintained the city's surface trunklines for many years under contract with MDOT. IIRC, the state took back over direct maintenance of its Detroit trunklines during the whole Detroit Budget Crisis situation and signage (and maintenance, snow plowing, traffic signal quality, etc) improved GREATLY.
Another problem is,
generally, Michigan's trunkline signage is pretty stellar. Not perfect, of course, but I've been to many states and provinces in North America and Michigan is one of the best in terms of trunkline signage in general and route marker signage in particular. So, those "less-than-stellar" situations (e.g. downtown Detroit and the new termini of other recent jurisdictional transfers, like BS I-94 Kalamazoo, BUS US-131 Kalamazoo, M-343 Kalamazoo, BS/BL I-196 Wyoming, etc.) become more obvious than they otherwise would be. In some jurisdictions I've been to, even basic signage indicating route turns can be missing, let alone signing route termini.
Without the I-375 heritage, one could argue it would be an excellent Business Loop/Spur for I-75. But not sure that would be any clearer for anyone.
There's also precedent for a special route designation, the Capitol Loop in Lansing being one example.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 27, 2023, 09:19:53 PM
I would hope they don't sign it any number. MDOT would be smart to turn control over to the city.
That would be my preferred solution too. No point in assigning a state highway number to what is essentially a city street.
MDOT begins adding more Flex to US-23 by extending the "Flex Lanes" section north to I-96.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/04/27/us-23-flex-project-to-begin-in-livingston-county-on-friday-with-lane-closures (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/04/27/us-23-flex-project-to-begin-in-livingston-county-on-friday-with-lane-closures)
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/US-Route/US-23-Flex/Phase-Two-Final-Alternatives-Analysis-Report.pdf?rev=cd8df06a872346c38890747daffd2aaf&hash=888FDE0DCA88CEC8303440E1508BCD06 (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/US-Route/US-23-Flex/Phase-Two-Final-Alternatives-Analysis-Report.pdf?rev=cd8df06a872346c38890747daffd2aaf&hash=888FDE0DCA88CEC8303440E1508BCD06)
The median width on this section is about 20' wider than the section south of 8 Mile. In theory, there's enough space to go with full-width lanes and inside shoulders without having to replace any overpasses crossing US-23 (except the CSX railroad), but for continuity with the southern Flex Lanes section and cost reasons it makes more sense to add the 3rd set of lanes as temporary lanes. It also appears from the study plans that MDOT is getting a design exception for the shoulder widths under the CSX railroad bridge, which narrow to as little as 5'9" northbound and 7' southbound.
US-131 rebuilding in Kalamazoo County starts Monday
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/04/25/us-131-rebuilding-in-kalamazoo-county-starts-monday
Highlights: every intersection outside of the Village of Schoolcraft, and south of Shaver Rd, are to be converted to Michigan Lefts (according to the press release). Also, no bypass of Schoolcraft, though new streetscape, curbs and gutters are included within Schoolcraft.
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 29, 2023, 03:40:58 PM
MDOT begins adding more Flex to US-23 by extending the "Flex Lanes" section north to I-96.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/04/27/us-23-flex-project-to-begin-in-livingston-county-on-friday-with-lane-closures (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/04/27/us-23-flex-project-to-begin-in-livingston-county-on-friday-with-lane-closures)
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/US-Route/US-23-Flex/Phase-Two-Final-Alternatives-Analysis-Report.pdf?rev=cd8df06a872346c38890747daffd2aaf&hash=888FDE0DCA88CEC8303440E1508BCD06 (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/US-Route/US-23-Flex/Phase-Two-Final-Alternatives-Analysis-Report.pdf?rev=cd8df06a872346c38890747daffd2aaf&hash=888FDE0DCA88CEC8303440E1508BCD06)
The median width on this section is about 20' wider than the section south of 8 Mile. In theory, there's enough space to go with full-width lanes and inside shoulders without having to replace any overpasses crossing US-23 (except the CSX railroad), but for continuity with the southern Flex Lanes section and cost reasons it makes more sense to add the 3rd set of lanes as temporary lanes. It also appears from the study plans that MDOT is getting a design exception for the shoulder widths under the CSX railroad bridge, which narrow to as little as 5'9" northbound and 7' southbound.
Would design exceptions even be needed? US-23 is not an interstate highway, and therefore does not need to meet interstate standards.
It should be built to them, but there's nothing requiring it.
US-23 has needed attention for over 20 years now. It's a pain in the ass to drive on and in fact I hate that freeway especially between Flint and Ann Arbor. Two lanes in each direction with traffic volumes that warrant 3-4 lanes in each direction. That whole split in Flint is undersized, I-75 is also two lanes in each direction but for only 4 miles. Totally undersized highways and the flex lanes are going to solve nothing. MDOT is insane for even considering the flex lanes. And let's not forget to mention that the pavement quality on US-23 is in poor condition for most of the stretch between Flint and the Ohio line. I'll say one thing though, at least Old US-23 is there for most of the stretch that road is nice when the freeway backs up with traffic.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 29, 2023, 07:46:24 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 29, 2023, 03:40:58 PM
It also appears from the study plans that MDOT is getting a design exception for the shoulder widths under the CSX railroad bridge, which narrow to as little as 5'9" northbound and 7' southbound.
Would design exceptions even be needed? US-23 is not an interstate highway, and therefore does not need to meet interstate standards.
It should be built to them, but there's nothing requiring it.
All I know is that MDOT specifically stated they had to get design exceptions for the CSX bridge in the study documentation. Probably a federal funding requirement?
Does anyone know when the Fulton St (M-21) entrance ramp to EB I-96 is going to be completed, or why they started a new project on I-96, closing down a lane in each direction between Cascade Rd and 28th St, before completing the ramp? I believe an extra lane of travel between Fulton St and Cascade Rd is also being included in the Fulton St ramp project, and it could really be used right now with. That area could really get backed up before either project started, and it's really a mess now. I drove by there today and there are no signs of completing the ramp/extra lane anytime soon.
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 30, 2023, 08:18:13 PM
Does anyone know when the Fulton St (M-21) entrance ramp to EB I-96 is going to be completed, or why they started a new project on I-96, closing down a lane in each direction between Cascade Rd and 28th St, before completing the ramp? I believe an extra lane of travel between Fulton St and Cascade Rd is also being included in the Fulton St ramp project, and it could really be used right now with. That area could really get backed up before either project started, and it's really a mess now. I drove by there today and there are no signs of completing the ramp/extra lane anytime soon.
Things didn't go as planned for MDOT and the work was suspended until sometime this year. The location of the planned ramp contains areas of unstable soil so they need more time for planning and getting more materials needed to stabilize the ramp area. There never was a ramp there so this is all new construction for MDOT. They will be resuming construction there sometime this Spring if they haven't already started.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2023, 07:05:03 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 30, 2023, 08:18:13 PM
Does anyone know when the Fulton St (M-21) entrance ramp to EB I-96 is going to be completed, or why they started a new project on I-96, closing down a lane in each direction between Cascade Rd and 28th St, before completing the ramp? I believe an extra lane of travel between Fulton St and Cascade Rd is also being included in the Fulton St ramp project, and it could really be used right now with. That area could really get backed up before either project started, and it's really a mess now. I drove by there today and there are no signs of completing the ramp/extra lane anytime soon.
Things didn't go as planned for MDOT and the work was suspended until sometime this year. The location of the planned ramp contains areas of unstable soil so they need more time for planning and getting more materials needed to stabilize the ramp area. There never was a ramp there so this is all new construction for MDOT. They will be resuming construction there sometime this Spring if they haven't already started.
They haven't and there is no sign that they're going to resume anytime soon. I don't see any construction vehicles/equipment in the area. Everything has been removed and the project looks like it's been totally abandoned. The ramp itself looks virtually complete except for the paving. I hope this isn't some new MDOT cost-cutting plan to have unpaved freeway entrance ramps. :)
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 01, 2023, 01:56:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2023, 07:05:03 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 30, 2023, 08:18:13 PM
Does anyone know when the Fulton St (M-21) entrance ramp to EB I-96 is going to be completed, or why they started a new project on I-96, closing down a lane in each direction between Cascade Rd and 28th St, before completing the ramp? I believe an extra lane of travel between Fulton St and Cascade Rd is also being included in the Fulton St ramp project, and it could really be used right now with. That area could really get backed up before either project started, and it's really a mess now. I drove by there today and there are no signs of completing the ramp/extra lane anytime soon.
Things didn't go as planned for MDOT and the work was suspended until sometime this year. The location of the planned ramp contains areas of unstable soil so they need more time for planning and getting more materials needed to stabilize the ramp area. There never was a ramp there so this is all new construction for MDOT. They will be resuming construction there sometime this Spring if they haven't already started.
They haven't and there is no sign that they're going to resume anytime soon. I don't see any construction vehicles/equipment in the area. Everything has been removed and the project looks like it's been totally abandoned. The ramp itself looks virtually complete except for the paving. I hope this isn't some new MDOT cost-cutting plan to have unpaved freeway entrance ramps. :)
They could still finish it this year. The unstable soil issue has to be thrown in the plans now as soon as they can get the materials they need I'm sure they'll resume working on it.
Regarding US-23 I have an example of the headache that highway is right now. There is an accident just south of I-96 on the SB side backing traffic up to M-59. Google Maps suggests getting off at M-59 and taking Old US-23 all the way to Silver Lake Road before getting back on the freeway. A distance of 12 miles.
TL/DR: Want to fix congested highways in Michigan? Figure out how to cough up $20 Billion on short notice.
(MDOT's highway budget for the next 5 years: $12 Billion)
How did I come up with that number? Read on:
Using this cost example because it's handy, Florida's DOT estimates a new-construction 6-lane freeway to run about $10 - 20 million per mile. https://www.fdot.gov/programmanagement/estimates/documents/costpermilemodelsreports (https://www.fdot.gov/programmanagement/estimates/documents/costpermilemodelsreports)
Assuming a 50,000 vpd threshold to 6-lane a freeway, and a 90,000 threshold to go to 8 lanes (borrowing WisDOT's rules for this), the following sections of freeway qualify for widening. Note: I excluded urban and suburban freeways in metro Detroit from this list for brevity.
US-23 - 61 miles of 4-lane freeway > 50,000 vpd
MM 27-42 (Dundee to M-14 Ann Arbor east)
MM 45-91 (Ann Arbor M-14 to I-75 near Flint)
3 miles of 6-lane freeway > 90,000 vpd
MM 42-45 (M-14 multiplex around Ann Arbor)
US-31 - 6 miles of 4-lane freeway > 50,000 vpd
MM 110-116 (Muskegon)
US-127 -
14 miles of 4-lane divided to freeway
(throwing this here for system continuity reasons)
MM 100-114 (Ithaca to St. Johns)
7 miles of 4-lane freeway > 50,000 vpd
MM 73-80 (Lansing)
US-131 - 28 miles of 4-lane freeway > 50,000 vpd
MM 34-38 (Kalamazoo)
MM 64-76 (Wayland to 76th St)
MM 89-101 (I-96 to M-57)
12 miles of existing 6-lane freeway > 90,000 vpd
MM 77-89 (Grand Rapids, M-6 to I-96)
I-75 - 3 miles of 6-lane freeway > 90,000 vpd
MM 114-117 (Flint, US-23 to I-69)
I-94 - 62 miles of existing 4-lane sections > 50,000 vpd
MM 72 to 108 (K'zoo to I-69)
MM 136-142 (Jackson - M-60 to US-127 South, w/ 3 miles already constructed)
MM 159-166 (Chelsea to existing 6-lane)
MM 171-180 (Ann Arbor, incl. 8-laning MM 177-180)
MM 243-247 (New Baltimore)
3 miles of 6-lane freeway > 90,000 vpd
MM 182-185 (Ypsilanti, US-12 multiplex)
I-96 -
25 miles of 4-lane freeway > 50,000 vpd
MM 26-33 (Grand Rapids, Fruit Ridge Ave to Plainfield Ave
MM 38-43 (Grand Rapids, M-21 to M-11)
MM 46-53 (M-6 to M-50)
MM 104-110 (Lansing - Cedar St to Okemos Rd)
14 miles of 6-lane freeway > 90,000 vpd
MM 145-159 (Brighton, Grand River Ave to Wixom Rd, Novi)
I-196 - 17 miles of 4-lane freeway > 50,000 vpd
MM 55-64 (Zeeland, I-196BL to M-6)
MM 69-77 (Grand Rapids, M-121 to US-131)
In total, I estimate:
14 miles of 4-lane divided highway to 4-lane freeway (US-127 Ithaca to St. Johns)
206 miles of 4-lane freeway to widen to 6 lanes
32 miles of 6-lane freeway to widen to 8 lanes
Using guesstimates of $15 million/mile for new 4-lane, $20 million/mile for new 6-lane, and $30 million/mile for new 8-lane, I come up with:
$210 Million to finish the US-127 freeway between Ithaca and St. Johns
$4.1 Billion to 6-lane the overloaded 4-lane stretches
~ $1 Billion to 8-lane the 6-lane stretches - this feels low.
If I use the I-75 work in Oakland County as an example, it cost about $2 Billion for 18 miles of rebuild/widening. That would put 8-laning the congested 6-lane sections of I-96 and US-131 at about $4 Billion, which feels closer to the mark.
Add another $2 Billion or so to modernize I-94 through Detroit. Throw another $1.5 Billion or so to complete the US-31 bypass of Holland and run a US-131 freeway south to I-80/90. Finally, let's throw another $1 Billion to connect Jackson to Toledo with new freeway, and another $1 Billion to uncork Traverse City.
And now I've induced travel demand. So, kick up another 50 miles of 6-laning and 20 miles of 8-laning. Another roughly $3 Billion. And for funsies, let's 4-lane expressway US-2 between Iron Mountain and St. Ignace, and US-41 between Houghton and Menominee. Another $2 Billion
I'm sitting at roughly $20 Billion to uncork every major highway in Michigan. Keep in mind MDOT's budget for the 2023-2027 highway program over 5 years is $12 Billion.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2023, 01:59:56 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 01, 2023, 01:56:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 01, 2023, 07:05:03 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 30, 2023, 08:18:13 PM
Does anyone know when the Fulton St (M-21) entrance ramp to EB I-96 is going to be completed, or why they started a new project on I-96, closing down a lane in each direction between Cascade Rd and 28th St, before completing the ramp? I believe an extra lane of travel between Fulton St and Cascade Rd is also being included in the Fulton St ramp project, and it could really be used right now with. That area could really get backed up before either project started, and it's really a mess now. I drove by there today and there are no signs of completing the ramp/extra lane anytime soon.
Things didn't go as planned for MDOT and the work was suspended until sometime this year. The location of the planned ramp contains areas of unstable soil so they need more time for planning and getting more materials needed to stabilize the ramp area. There never was a ramp there so this is all new construction for MDOT. They will be resuming construction there sometime this Spring if they haven't already started.
They haven't and there is no sign that they're going to resume anytime soon. I don't see any construction vehicles/equipment in the area. Everything has been removed and the project looks like it's been totally abandoned. The ramp itself looks virtually complete except for the paving. I hope this isn't some new MDOT cost-cutting plan to have unpaved freeway entrance ramps. :)
They could still finish it this year. The unstable soil issue has to be thrown in the plans now as soon as they can get the materials they need I'm sure they'll resume working on it.
I certainly hope so. They already have signage up for the ramp on Fulton St and it's not covered. Instead of a bridge to nowhere, it's a non-ramp to Lansing! :)
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 01, 2023, 08:13:23 PM
Using this cost example because it's handy, Florida's DOT estimates a new-construction 6-lane freeway to run about $10 - 20 million per mile. https://www.fdot.gov/programmanagement/estimates/documents/costpermilemodelsreports (https://www.fdot.gov/programmanagement/estimates/documents/costpermilemodelsreports)
That number can certainly vary widely depending on the area... for example, a 4 mile widening along I-81 outside Salem, VA is costing around $200 million, roughly $50 million per mile for 4 to 6 lane widening.
$10-20 million per mile is certainly a low ball estimate. I'm not sure what the trends are in Michigan for similar rural freeway widening projects.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 01, 2023, 10:03:17 PM
$10-20 million per mile is certainly a low ball estimate. I'm not sure what the trends are in Michigan for similar rural freeway widening projects.
Yeah. I'm assuming that figure is just the mainline roadway, without bridges, overpasses, exits, etc.
Still, I think it does a good job explaining the reluctance for Michigan to widen highways to alleviate traffic. Insufficient funds will do that.
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 02, 2023, 01:30:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 01, 2023, 10:03:17 PM
$10-20 million per mile is certainly a low ball estimate. I'm not sure what the trends are in Michigan for similar rural freeway widening projects.
Yeah. I'm assuming that figure is just the mainline roadway, without bridges, overpasses, exits, etc.
Still, I think it does a good job explaining the reluctance for Michigan to widen highways to alleviate traffic. Insufficient funds will do that.
I just want to congratulate you and tell you that, personally, as one who hasn't worked for MDOT and who will make note of times when they make mistakes or seemingly-bad decisions (we're all human!), I also try to have a balanced viewpoint, too. I've had people e-mail me at my website over the past 26 years complaining "Why doesn't MDOT just do
x?" or "MDOT is just stupid for not doing
y!". What you have done is not only a fair bit of real-world research on the actual (potential) costs for certain infrastructure upgrades, you then applied that statewide (essentially) which helped illustrate why MDOT "doesn't just do
x"! Personally, I'd
love it your US-131 widening in the Kalamazoo area and from Wayland to 76th St south of Grand Rapids happened! It would make my commute easier. Personally, I'd love three through lanes both ways from Kalamazoo to 76th St after regularly sitting behind total morons sitting in the left lane doing 68 mph for 15—20 miles passing a 65 mph semi in the right lane... :banghead: But, I'm also realistic and, like you, I know there are real-world costs and with the citizens of the state generally unwilling to pay for said infrastructure upgrades (it's always easier to bitch about the roads than to shell out a couple more cents a gallon in gasoline taxes!), I know it's not in the cards.
I also have to recognize you for noting the induced travel all "your" capacity improvements would bring. People often just don't think of that kind of stuff. And when you referred to "uncorking" Traverse City... I could only imagine the
Record-Eagle's "Letters to the Editor" section blowing up for months (years!) on end with the backlash of connecting T.C. to the freeway system! The last thing many people who move to Northwest Michigan want is for others to do exactly what they did. A freeway to T.C. would bring out every single NIMBY within 50 miles. :-D
BUS US-31 Pentwater: 1955—2023I've received official word that today, BUS US-31 at Pentwater is no longer. Of course, signage changes will likely take a few weeks or months to implement and BUS US-31 will likely continue to show up on the US-31 freeway exit signage at Exit 154 (nbd) and Exit 158 (sbd) for some time, if MDOT's usual practice remains. (They
often, but not always, wait for a freeway signage update/replacement to make those types of changes.)
Effective today, May 4, 2023, the portion of BUS US-31 within the village limits of Pentwater, approximately 1.95 miles, was transferred to village jurisdiction. As the route through the village is up to current standards and in good repair, no additional money is included in the transfer. MDOT will also have to modify its trunkline maintenance contract with the Oceana Co Road Commission to no longer maintain the former BUS US-31 through the village. The remainder of former BUS US-31 north and southeast of Pentwater will be an unsigned state trunkline route, for now. And knowing how many
decades it's taken Oceana Co to take back former parts of US-31–and they still haven't taken it all back yet!–it'll likely remain unsigned trunkline for awhile. (There are still 8.215 miles of OLD US-31 still under MDOT jurisdiction 40+ years later!)
The route of BUS US-31 at Pentwater had existed since July 12, 1955 (just shy of 68 full years) when the US-31 "Pentwater Bypass" was completed. This route was originally M-11–the "West Michigan Pike"– since February 14, 1914 and the actual route through the village was transferred to state control on June 26, 1919, just short of 104 years of trunkline existence. Of course, from May 1927 until mid-1955, it was signed as the mainline route of US-31. I've
just updated the following pages on the Michigan Highways (http://www.michiganhighways.org) website:
- BUS US-31 (Pentwater) Route Listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwysBus2-31.html#US-31BUS-P)
- US-31 Route Listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/US-031.html)
- OLD US-31BR (Pentwater) Route Listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/other/unsigned.html#US-031BROLD-P)
- Lake Michigan Circle Tour (http://www.michiganhighways.org/other/lmct.html)
- West Michigan Pike Historic Byway (http://www.michiganhighways.org/other/byways_historic.html#WMP)
- B-15 Route Listing (http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwysA2-C81.html#B-15)
Quote from: bessertc on May 04, 2023, 08:28:31 PM
BUS US-31 Pentwater: 1955—2023
I've received official word that today, BUS US-31 at Pentwater is no longer. Of course, signage changes will likely take a few weeks or months to implement and BUS US-31 will likely continue to show up on the US-31 freeway exit signage at Exit 154 (nbd) and Exit 158 (sbd) for some time, if MDOT's usual practice remains. (They often, but not always, wait for a freeway signage update/replacement to make those types of changes.)
Any idea of the reason for the turnback? Another squabble over street parking?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 04, 2023, 09:11:50 PM
Quote from: bessertc on May 04, 2023, 08:28:31 PM
BUS US-31 Pentwater: 1955—2023
I've received official word that today, BUS US-31 at Pentwater is no longer. Of course, signage changes will likely take a few weeks or months to implement and BUS US-31 will likely continue to show up on the US-31 freeway exit signage at Exit 154 (nbd) and Exit 158 (sbd) for some time, if MDOT's usual practice remains. (They often, but not always, wait for a freeway signage update/replacement to make those types of changes.)
Any idea of the reason for the turnback? Another squabble over street parking?
The MDOT MOU with the Village doesn't state anything specific, other than the usual boilerplate verbiage of "The ROAD SEGMENTS are within the VILLAGE boundaries and are no longer functioning as State Trunkline." I believe that's a catch-all "reason" the Department uses with regard to many of their more minor trunkline turnbacks.
The Pentwater Village President noted in April that when he met with MDOT staff at the Muskegon TSC to discuss the turnback, that "Two-lane business routes are not in the long term goals of MDOT. They have offered us an opportunity to take back this route as a major road in our street program." I've also found MDOT is also working with the City of Hart on a transfer of BUS US-31 in that city as well, along with attempting to get the Oceana Co Road Commission to take back the remaining segments of OLD US-31 (Oceana Dr + a portion of Polk St at Hart) as well. So it seems MDOT may be actively reaching out to counties and municipalities to take over at least some of the more minor Business Connections. I don't know yet if this is more of a regional effort or a statewide endeavor. I'll have to see if folks I know at MDOT and FHWA are able to provide any feedback on this whole effort...
MDOT has been turning back some short mainline spur routes that no longer have purpose in a statewide transportation network, but to my mind business routes don't fall in that category (notwithstanding mutual turnback agreements because a town/city wants to change a road's operation). I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given MDOT's long-ago abandoning its involvement with the intercounty route system.
Maybe we're looking at Michigan's slow-moving version of the Great Ontario Download.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 04, 2023, 09:11:50 PM
Quote from: bessertc on May 04, 2023, 08:28:31 PM
BUS US-31 Pentwater: 1955—2023
I've received official word that today, BUS US-31 at Pentwater is no longer. Of course, signage changes will likely take a few weeks or months to implement and BUS US-31 will likely continue to show up on the US-31 freeway exit signage at Exit 154 (nbd) and Exit 158 (sbd) for some time, if MDOT's usual practice remains. (They often, but not always, wait for a freeway signage update/replacement to make those types of changes.)
Any idea of the reason for the turnback? Another squabble over street parking?
Of course I am not privy to all that is going on at MDOT, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no statewide effort to
Quote from: bessertc on May 04, 2023, 10:09:38 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 04, 2023, 09:11:50 PM
Quote from: bessertc on May 04, 2023, 08:28:31 PM
BUS US-31 Pentwater: 1955—2023
I've received official word that today, BUS US-31 at Pentwater is no longer. Of course, signage changes will likely take a few weeks or months to implement and BUS US-31 will likely continue to show up on the US-31 freeway exit signage at Exit 154 (nbd) and Exit 158 (sbd) for some time, if MDOT's usual practice remains. (They often, but not always, wait for a freeway signage update/replacement to make those types of changes.)
Any idea of the reason for the turnback? Another squabble over street parking?
The MDOT MOU with the Village doesn't state anything specific, other than the usual boilerplate verbiage of "The ROAD SEGMENTS are within the VILLAGE boundaries and are no longer functioning as State Trunkline." I believe that's a catch-all "reason" the Department uses with regard to many of their more minor trunkline turnbacks.
The Pentwater Village President noted in April that when he met with MDOT staff at the Muskegon TSC to discuss the turnback, that "Two-lane business routes are not in the long term goals of MDOT. They have offered us an opportunity to take back this route as a major road in our street program." I've also found MDOT is also working with the City of Hart on a transfer of BUS US-31 in that city as well, along with attempting to get the Oceana Co Road Commission to take back the remaining segments of OLD US-31 (Oceana Dr + a portion of Polk St at Hart) as well. So it seems MDOT may be actively reaching out to counties and municipalities to take over at least some of the more minor Business Connections. I don't know yet if this is more of a regional effort or a statewide endeavor. I'll have to see if folks I know at MDOT and FHWA are able to provide any feedback on this whole effort...
I am of course not aware of everything going on at MDOT, but I feel safe saying that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no statewide effort behind this jurisdictional transfer. MDOT often cannot give business routes the priority that a local agency would like, and in some of those cases it is mutually agreed by MDOT and the local agency that the local agency would be the better steward for the facility, leading to a transfer.
Quote from: bessertc on May 04, 2023, 10:09:38 PM
The MDOT MOU with the Village doesn't state anything specific, other than the usual boilerplate verbiage of "The ROAD SEGMENTS are within the VILLAGE boundaries and are no longer functioning as State Trunkline." I believe that's a catch-all "reason" the Department uses with regard to many of their more minor trunkline turnbacks.
The Pentwater Village President noted in April that when he met with MDOT staff at the Muskegon TSC to discuss the turnback, that "Two-lane business routes are not in the long term goals of MDOT. They have offered us an opportunity to take back this route as a major road in our street program." I've also found MDOT is also working with the City of Hart on a transfer of BUS US-31 in that city as well, along with attempting to get the Oceana Co Road Commission to take back the remaining segments of OLD US-31 (Oceana Dr + a portion of Polk St at Hart) as well. So it seems MDOT may be actively reaching out to counties and municipalities to take over at least some of the more minor Business Connections. I don't know yet if this is more of a regional effort or a statewide endeavor. I'll have to see if folks I know at MDOT and FHWA are able to provide any feedback on this whole effort...
Another MDOT contact did confirm to me today the Department is in serious discussions with both the Oceana Co Road Commission and the City of Hart to take over their BUS US-31 route and the remaining segments of OLD US-31 (Oceana Dr + Polk Rd between State St and Oceana Dr). I find this interesting in that it's 40+ years that the remaining segment of OLD US-31 along Oceana Dr has been an unsigned trunkline and the County has seemingly been unwilling to take it back up to now. It would be interesting if they took back all of OLD US-31
and, now, the OLD US-31BR segments at Pentwater.
MDOT finally asphalted a crumbling part of M-58 in Saginaw. I swear they did it in less than a week all the way from Court Street down to about Benjamin Street. A couple years ago they did the same thing on a crumbling part of M-46 on the other side of town and had that done in 2 weeks. But the Saginaw County Road Commission will take an entire summer to repave one street. Speaking of the Road commission their garage is on Sheridan Avenue in Saginaw and the part of Sheridan that this is located on has some of the worst concrete in the county. Dixie Highway between Bridgeport and Birch Run is yet another crumbling road and that road should serve as an alternate to I-75 and be in better condition.
Senate backs $50M grant program to reduce congested rail crossings by building overpasses, underpassesQuoteMichigan would create and fund a grant program to pay for projects that create roads that go above or under railroad crossing and stop congestion under bills that received Senate approval on Wednesday.
The policy legislation, which was passed 38-0, is designed to address traffic, safety and noise concerns through grade separation. The Senate also approved a transportation spending bill, 20-18 along party lines, with $50 million for the initiative.
It remains to be seen if the funding will be included in the final budget to be negotiated among the Democratic-led Senate, Democratic-controlled House and Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer. The House is expected to include $33 million for the program in a spending plan it will pass this week. Whitmer did not propose such funding in her blueprint. Under Senate Bill 125, the state Department of Transportation would be required to establish the program to issue grade-separation grants to cities, villages and county road commissions. Applicants would have to provide a local, private or federal grant equaling at least 10% of cost to build an overpass or underpass. The measure also would create the local grade separation fund.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/michigan-senate-votes-create-50m-rail-separation-fund
Great I'd love to see them get started in Saginaw at the railroad crossing on W. Genesee just east of N. Michigan. This railroad crossing is so bad that STARS tried to reroute their bus routes around the railroad crossing but some routes go over the tracks there now again.
The problem is that trains go through there often and actually come to a stop and sit on the tracks for multiple minutes at a time blocking the street. The traffic backs up on both Genesee and Michigan. I remember one time about 10 years ago I was on the bus, as soon as the bus was coming across the bridge over the Saginaw River the lights went on for the train crossing and a train was coming, the train proceeded to stop on the tracks for 25 minutes, I am not making this up or anything on the time it was 25 minutes because I looked at my phone and saw the time when the bus stopped and when the bus was able to move again. This caused the entire STARS system to run late because route 6 was 25 minutes late getting to Fashion Square. The inbound bus was already back downtown by the time the outbound bus could move.
I found this nugget of info on Senator Gary Peters website. An appropriations request for $1.8 million for a project called the I-75 Overbuild Project.
QuoteThis funding will support the planning and community engagement phase of Detroit's I-75 Overbuild Project which proposes placing a nearly 5 acre cover over I-75 near Cass Corridor that will connect the community to downtown
https://www.peters.senate.gov/services/spending-requests/transportation-housing-urban-development-and-related-agencies
Quote from: afguy on May 15, 2023, 06:52:23 PM
I found this nugget of info on Senator Gary Peters website. An appropriations request for $1.8 million for a project called the I-75 Overbuild Project.
QuoteThis funding will support the planning and community engagement phase of Detroit's I-75 Overbuild Project which proposes placing a nearly 5 acre cover over I-75 near Cass Corridor that will connect the community to downtown
https://www.peters.senate.gov/services/spending-requests/transportation-housing-urban-development-and-related-agencies
LOL Gary Peters who's that? That's what we're basically asking up here in Michigan.
Quote from: afguy on May 15, 2023, 06:52:23 PM
I found this nugget of info on Senator Gary Peters website. An appropriations request for $1.8 million for a project called the I-75 Overbuild Project.
QuoteThis funding will support the planning and community engagement phase of Detroit's I-75 Overbuild Project which proposes placing a nearly 5 acre cover over I-75 near Cass Corridor that will connect the community to downtown
https://www.peters.senate.gov/services/spending-requests/transportation-housing-urban-development-and-related-agencies
Maybe they'll make that one so it doesn't leak and form icicles that fall on traffic, like on I-696.
I-75 NB is closed from MM 326 to MM 336. Detour would be to get off at exit 326 and make a left onto Levering Road, follow Levering Road to Levering and make a right on US-31 north and take US-31 back to I-75.
Quote from: afguy on May 15, 2023, 06:52:23 PM
I found this nugget of info on Senator Gary Peters website. An appropriations request for $1.8 million for a project called the I-75 Overbuild Project.
QuoteThis funding will support the planning and community engagement phase of Detroit's I-75 Overbuild Project which proposes placing a nearly 5 acre cover over I-75 near Cass Corridor that will connect the community to downtown
https://www.peters.senate.gov/services/spending-requests/transportation-housing-urban-development-and-related-agencies
No doubt it would make the area look nicer, if it's kept up. But I'm curious to know what is the connectivity issue? Every north-south street in the area has a bridge over I-75, except for Park Street and Witherell Street which both exist only on the south side. Repair or replace the Brush Street bridge, if that hasn't yet been done.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 16, 2023, 08:55:13 AM
Quote from: afguy on May 15, 2023, 06:52:23 PM
I found this nugget of info on Senator Gary Peters website. An appropriations request for $1.8 million for a project called the I-75 Overbuild Project.
QuoteThis funding will support the planning and community engagement phase of Detroit's I-75 Overbuild Project which proposes placing a nearly 5 acre cover over I-75 near Cass Corridor that will connect the community to downtown
https://www.peters.senate.gov/services/spending-requests/transportation-housing-urban-development-and-related-agencies
No doubt it would make the area look nicer, if it's kept up. But I'm curious to know what is the connectivity issue? Every north-south street in the area has a bridge over I-75, except for Park Street and Witherell Street which both exist only on the south side. Repair or replace the Brush Street bridge, if that hasn't yet been done.
The connectivity issue is I-75 between all the bridges.
GSV show a recent view (April 2023) of the new Grand River Ave overpass over I-94 almost completed. https://goo.gl/maps/mUhnRuktw8jU3rW18
A Mackinac Bridge icon is retiring. Pat Rickley has been a toll attendant at the bridge for 30 years and anyone that has met him will not forget him. His classic one liners were great and he was funny. Hope he enjoys a great retirement his last day is Saturday. I'll miss seeing him on my way between Saginaw and Cedarville.
If anyone is heading north in Michigan along I-75 just want to pass along the gas at the Bridgeport exit 144 is $3.22 a gallon currently it's higher everywhere else along the highway.
Also in the Bay City area M-25 westbound from M-13 to its western terminus at US 10 and I-75 is closed as is the southbound ramp to I-75 from eastbound US 10. Use Mackinaw Road south to Delta Road east to M-84 north to get from eastbound US 10 to southbound I-75. The ramp is closed due to the construction on Three Mile Road. US 10 and M-25 eastbound are open to go into Bay City.
Quote from: afguy on May 15, 2023, 06:52:23 PM
I found this nugget of info on Senator Gary Peters website. An appropriations request for $1.8 million for a project called the I-75 Overbuild Project.
QuoteThis funding will support the planning and community engagement phase of Detroit's I-75 Overbuild Project which proposes placing a nearly 5 acre cover over I-75 near Cass Corridor that will connect the community to downtown
$1.8M for a project that would easily end up costing $200M and take a decade before it would be implemented.
I-75 in Genesee County will have some construction delays after the Memorial Day weekend. Between Dort highway and the US 23 split.
Lane closures and traffic shifts will be in place throughout the project. Northbound I-75 will close entirely from 6 p.m. to 7 a.m. on consecutive nights June 7 and 8 for joint repairs.
One week later, northbound I-75 will close to all traffic for three days to accommodate milling and resurfacing. Dates for that closure will be determined by progress on the joint repairs.
All northbound I-75 traffic will be directed off the I-475 exit in Grand Blanc Township and detoured north to I-69 and west to I-75 while the full closures are in effect.
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 28, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Are all shielded state routes owned by MI, or is it like NY, where municipalities have maintenance/operations responsibilities on some of them?
Quote from: Rothman on May 28, 2023, 10:13:25 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 28, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Are all shielded state routes owned by MI, or is it like NY, where municipalities have maintenance/operations responsibilities on some of them?
All state trunklines are maintained by MDOT.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:09:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 28, 2023, 10:13:25 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 28, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Are all shielded state routes owned by MI, or is it like NY, where municipalities have maintenance/operations responsibilities on some of them?
All state trunklines are maintained by MDOT.
Although they may contract out some items to counties, maybe cities. Such as snow removal.
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 28, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Yeah they have a parade, carinval, fireworks and other stuff. I don't get why people are shooting off fireworks over Memorial Day weekend. Memorial Day is supposed to be for honoring and mourning the U.S. military personnel who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces not a celebration of anything. But as far as closing M-66 for the weekend that doesn't make much sense because for one thing M-66 is a major north-south highway in the state of Michigan, along with I-75, US-23, US-127, US-131, M-37, US-31 and so on and there is really no good way to bypass Sheridan which is a pretty small community in the first place and like you said they have you detouring along narrow streets with cars parked along both sides of the street. Not a very good detour. You have Sidney Road and M-57 for east-west travel but nothing for north-south except for M-66 in that area.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 28, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Yeah they have a parade, carinval, fireworks and other stuff. I don't get why people are shooting off fireworks over Memorial Day weekend. Memorial Day is supposed to be for honoring and mourning the U.S. military personnel who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces not a celebration of anything. But as far as closing M-66 for the weekend that doesn't make much sense because for one thing M-66 is a major north-south highway in the state of Michigan, along with I-75, US-23, US-127, US-131, M-37, US-31 and so on and there is really no good way to bypass Sheridan which is a pretty small community in the first place and like you said they have you detouring along narrow streets with cars parked along both sides of the street. Not a very good detour. You have Sidney Road and M-57 for east-west travel but nothing for north-south except for M-66 in that area.
It's ironic too. I was traveling to Mt. Pleasant and wanted to avoid US-127 because it gets backed up every holiday weekend.
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 29, 2023, 02:25:53 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 28, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Yeah they have a parade, carinval, fireworks and other stuff. I don't get why people are shooting off fireworks over Memorial Day weekend. Memorial Day is supposed to be for honoring and mourning the U.S. military personnel who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces not a celebration of anything. But as far as closing M-66 for the weekend that doesn't make much sense because for one thing M-66 is a major north-south highway in the state of Michigan, along with I-75, US-23, US-127, US-131, M-37, US-31 and so on and there is really no good way to bypass Sheridan which is a pretty small community in the first place and like you said they have you detouring along narrow streets with cars parked along both sides of the street. Not a very good detour. You have Sidney Road and M-57 for east-west travel but nothing for north-south except for M-66 in that area.
It's ironic too. I was traveling to Mt. Pleasant and wanted to avoid US-127 because it gets backed up every holiday weekend.
I got on I-75 southbound in the Saginaw area last night for a minute just between the M-81 and southern I-675 exits and the traffic was heavy but moving at the speed limit. I was thinking this will be a mess tomorrow. Thankfully they have completed the widening and repaving between MM 148 and 150. As I was getting on 75 last night a car behind me was trying to overtake me I was like wtf are you doing? So I just punched it and merged onto the highway, this car was still trying to get past me as the on ramp was ending. Oh well, everyone is Up North right now and southbound will be a haul today.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 28, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Yeah they have a parade, carinval, fireworks and other stuff. I don't get why people are shooting off fireworks over Memorial Day weekend. Memorial Day is supposed to be for honoring and mourning the U.S. military personnel who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces not a celebration of anything. But as far as closing M-66 for the weekend that doesn't make much sense because for one thing M-66 is a major north-south highway in the state of Michigan, along with I-75, US-23, US-127, US-131, M-37, US-31 and so on and there is really no good way to bypass Sheridan which is a pretty small community in the first place and like you said they have you detouring along narrow streets with cars parked along both sides of the street. Not a very good detour. You have Sidney Road and M-57 for east-west travel but nothing for north-south except for M-66 in that area.
Brown Road is a mile to the west. Not ideal, but not any worse than any rural route detour for roadwork. If MDOT was properly notified to obtain consent, the closure would have been shown in advance on the mi.gov/drive traffic map and I'd also hope MDOT required a signed detour. Was the posted detour really routed through neighborhood streets?
Near me, Grand River Avenue in Farmington (Old BL I-96) is closed three times a year for events. The closures always show on the traffic map and detours are signed.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:21:05 PM
I don't get why people are shooting off fireworks over Memorial Day weekend. Memorial Day is supposed to be for honoring and mourning the U.S. military personnel who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces not a celebration of anything.
Give Americans a day off and a 30-rack of cheap beer and that tends to happen, even if it's not the traditional way to observe a holiday.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 30, 2023, 03:07:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 28, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
Avoid M-66 going through Sheridan this weekend, like the plague! M-66 is closed for Memorial weekend going through town, due to something called Sheridan Springfest, which appears to be a street fair. Traffic is detoured along narrow streets with vehicles parked every which way, hanging out into the roadways and so on. It looked like about half the traffic was trying to get through town and half were looking for a place to park. I can't believe the state would allow for a state highway to be closed on a busy holiday weekend for something like this, especially when there are no good alternatives to get through town and no warnings about the upcoming closure!
Yeah they have a parade, carinval, fireworks and other stuff. I don't get why people are shooting off fireworks over Memorial Day weekend. Memorial Day is supposed to be for honoring and mourning the U.S. military personnel who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces not a celebration of anything. But as far as closing M-66 for the weekend that doesn't make much sense because for one thing M-66 is a major north-south highway in the state of Michigan, along with I-75, US-23, US-127, US-131, M-37, US-31 and so on and there is really no good way to bypass Sheridan which is a pretty small community in the first place and like you said they have you detouring along narrow streets with cars parked along both sides of the street. Not a very good detour. You have Sidney Road and M-57 for east-west travel but nothing for north-south except for M-66 in that area.
Brown Road is a mile to the west. Not ideal, but not any worse than any rural route detour for roadwork. If MDOT was properly notified to obtain consent, the closure would have been shown in advance on the mi.gov/drive traffic map and I'd also hope MDOT required a signed detour. Was the posted detour really routed through neighborhood streets?
Near me, Grand River Avenue in Farmington (Old BL I-96) is closed three times a year for events. The closures always show on the traffic map and detours are signed.
Streets? Neighborhood alleys would probably be a more fitting description. :) Traffic was detoured to the east of M-66, still within sight of the rides and stuff on the highway, in places anyway. They were narrow, residential streets with short driveways, and it appeared that people may have been parking in private driveways w/o permission, but that's speculation on my part. But many driveways were full with vehicles hanging out into the narrow roadways.
I've never used the mi.gov/drive traffic map before. I've never had a reason to. The detour was signed, but I'm not sure if it was signed by MDOT or locally. I didn't really pay much attention to that. But I didn't see any signage warning of the upcoming closure and detour until I got there.
For a little more than a half mile, looking at Google Maps and not remembering off the top of my head I believe it was Sherman Street that was used as the detour.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2023, 08:20:55 AM
For a little more than a half mile, looking at Google Maps and not remembering off the top of my head I believe it was Sherman Street that was used as the detour.
That looks right. I believe the detour was Condensery Rd to Sherman St to St. Clair St. The other weird thing is, the Marathon station at the corner of M-66 and St. Clair St. was open and accessible. I'm not sure if the Shell station a block and a half south of it was open or not, but it sure wasn't accessible, at least not to through town traffic. So on a busy holiday weekend, the Marathon station got all the through town business while the Shell station got zippo. That hardly sounds fair. I wonder if a local politician owns the Marathon station. ;)
https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/10-year-old-arrested-after-stealing-car-fleeing-police-on-i-75-in-saginaw/
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 01, 2023, 06:12:03 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 01, 2023, 08:20:55 AM
For a little more than a half mile, looking at Google Maps and not remembering off the top of my head I believe it was Sherman Street that was used as the detour.
That looks right. I believe the detour was Condensery Rd to Sherman St to St. Clair St. The other weird thing is, the Marathon station at the corner of M-66 and St. Clair St. was open and accessible. I'm not sure if the Shell station a block and a half south of it was open or not, but it sure wasn't accessible, at least not to through town traffic. So on a busy holiday weekend, the Marathon station got all the through town business while the Shell station got zippo. That hardly sounds fair. I wonder if a local politician owns the Marathon station. ;)
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's what the detour was. I'm not sure if the Shell station was open or not, I avoided the area.
A 10-year-old child stealing a car and taking it for a joyride? Where the hell were the child's parents? They should probably also face some charges for their negligence.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 04, 2023, 12:40:21 PM
A 10-year-old child stealing a car and taking it for a joyride? Where the hell were the child's parents? They should probably also face some charges for their negligence.
I know it. When I heard that I was like you've got to be kidding. The area where the car was stolen from is a crime ridden area and I'm willing to bet that the kids parents are nowhere to be found or they influence this behavior.
MDOT will be letting a contract (#2307-002 on July 7th) to continue road rehabilitation and elimination of direct left turns and perpendicular crossings on US-127. This project will be between M-57 and the freeway terminus south of Ithaca.
(https://i.imgur.com/vtiw88X.jpg)
MDOT will be hosting a public house for the I-194 PEL study. From what I've seen from the long-term transportation plan for Battle Creek, the goal is either to do a full reconstruction or downgrade it to a boulevard similar to the I-375 plan in Detroit.
QuoteThe PEL study will focus on the I-194 corridor from the north side of the I-94/I-194 interchange to Fountain Street in Battle Creek. I-194 plays a significant role in Calhoun County by providing regional connections to I-94 and downtown Battle Creek. The PEL study is a collaborative process that considers environmental, community, and economic goals in transportation planning.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/06/07/mdot-public-open-house-for-i-194-pel-study-in-calhoun-county (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/06/07/mdot-public-open-house-for-i-194-pel-study-in-calhoun-county)
Another downgrade to a boulevard? If I lived in Battle Creek, I would strongly oppose it.
Unlike 375, I-194 doesn't really divide anything until the very end. And there, one is probably going to want to keep the grade separation with the railroad, so at the point, might as well retain the interchange with Dickman Rd. (heh, heh...)
Total sidetrack, but looking at some aerials in Battle Creek; Dickman Road (Bus I-94)'s crossing of the Kalamzoo River is absolutely hideous. What is that, like 8 culvert pipes? They should totally remove that low-rise, useless damn, put in an actual bridge, clap the two carriageways of Dickman Rd together closer, and fix them up a nice park along the restored channel in what is currently just a shallow, useless impoundment.
Can't do much about that channelized portion the rest of the way downstream to the confluence with Battle Creek, but it wouldn't hurt to try.
As gorgeous as their waterfront on the creek looks, that's how ugly the Kalamazoo River is on the other side of downtown. Some seriously good opportunities to do better with that reach of the river and probably spur a bunch of development alongside it as a result.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 08, 2023, 02:51:18 PM
Unlike 375, I-194 doesn't really divide anything until the very end. And there, one is probably going to want to keep the grade separation with the railroad, so at the point, might as well retain the interchange with Dickman Rd. (heh, heh...)
Total sidetrack, but looking at some aerials in Battle Creek; Dickman Road (Bus I-94)'s crossing of the Kalamzoo River is absolutely hideous. What is that, like 8 culvert pipes? They should totally remove that low-rise, useless damn, put in an actual bridge, clap the two carriageways of Dickman Rd together closer, and fix them up a nice park along the restored channel in what is currently just a shallow, useless impoundment.
Can't do much about that channelized portion the rest of the way downstream to the confluence with Battle Creek, but it wouldn't hurt to try.
As gorgeous as their waterfront on the creek looks, that's how ugly the Kalamazoo River is on the other side of downtown. Some seriously good opportunities to do better with that reach of the river and probably spur a bunch of development alongside it as a result.
How does I-375 divide anything? It may have at one time, but I don't see any residences on the west side of I-375.
If anything I-75 divides more than I-375 does. Capping I-75 would be wonderful it would connect downtown and midtown. I-375 has Lafayette Park east of it and downtown west of it. It'll be nice when I-375 is removed though but capping I-75 should be done as well. I would love to see I-75 in Detroit like I-5 is going through Seattle.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 08, 2023, 09:45:38 PM
If anything I-75 divides more than I-375 does. Capping I-75 would be wonderful it would connect downtown and midtown. I-375 has Lafayette Park east of it and downtown west of it. It'll be nice when I-375 is removed though but capping I-75 should be done as well. I would love to see I-75 in Detroit like I-5 is going through Seattle.
I'm sorry, but I don't see anything good about removing I-375 and replacing it with a boulevard. Presently it provides easy, free flowing access to Comerica Park, Ford Field, Greektown Casino, The Renaissance Center, the tunnel to Canada, the waterfront, etc. I see no reason for a 6-lane surface street which will just cause more congestion. If they're going to tear it down, just turn it into a massive parking lot for $10/day or something.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 08, 2023, 11:39:40 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 08, 2023, 09:45:38 PM
If anything I-75 divides more than I-375 does. Capping I-75 would be wonderful it would connect downtown and midtown. I-375 has Lafayette Park east of it and downtown west of it. It'll be nice when I-375 is removed though but capping I-75 should be done as well. I would love to see I-75 in Detroit like I-5 is going through Seattle.
I'm sorry, but I don't see anything good about removing I-375 and replacing it with a boulevard. Presently it provides easy, free flowing access to Comerica Park, Ford Field, Greektown Casino, The Renaissance Center, the tunnel to Canada, the waterfront, etc. I see no reason for a 6-lane surface street which will just cause more congestion. If they're going to tear it down, just turn it into a massive parking lot for $10/day or something.
Comerica Park and Ford Field are at the northern end of the freeway. Making I-375 into a boulevard gives Detroit a chance to build up the area and connect downtown to Lafayette Park. There are only about 14,000 VPD that use the southern end of I-375 and about 53,000 VPD that use the northern end, I don't think making this into a boulevard is going to cause more congestion. Maybe they should have built I-75 along the river instead of going north of downtown.
At least when the Interstate 75 junction with present-day 375 is reconstructed, traffic will not have to exit to stay on Interstate 75. I wonder if and how the current spur from 75/375 to Gratiot Avenue will be redeveloped, although if downtown Milwaukee when the Park East Freeway was torn down is any guide, redevelopment of the vacated land may be a long and slow process.
Quote from: afguy on June 07, 2023, 06:15:23 PM
MDOT will be hosting a public house for the I-194 PEL study. From what I've seen from the long-term transportation plan for Battle Creek, the goal is either to do a full reconstruction or downgrade it to a boulevard similar to the I-375 plan in Detroit.
QuoteThe PEL study will focus on the I-194 corridor from the north side of the I-94/I-194 interchange to Fountain Street in Battle Creek. I-194 plays a significant role in Calhoun County by providing regional connections to I-94 and downtown Battle Creek. The PEL study is a collaborative process that considers environmental, community, and economic goals in transportation planning.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/06/07/mdot-public-open-house-for-i-194-pel-study-in-calhoun-county (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/06/07/mdot-public-open-house-for-i-194-pel-study-in-calhoun-county)
Yeah, there's no reason to pursue a downgrade here. It doesn't need a widening or anything extravagant. It just needs some modernization.
The interchange layout at Dickman Rd doesn't necessary need a change. But the "Magnificent Motor Mile" needs sidewalks and bike paths - it's an area that is in the city center, after all. And as @triplemultiplex suggested, let's make the Dickman Rd crossing of the Kalamazoo River something other than a weed-choked impoundment. Probably also a discussion for another day. However, MDOT owns both of these messes and should clean them up.
At Columbia Ave (M-96), a diverging diamond interchange would be useful. Also, a sidewalk/bike path are needed (and frankly, need to be extended along Columbia Ave both ways, but that's a discussion for another time). Otherwise, rebuild the overpass and call it a day.
Where I would recommend major changes is at the other end at I-94. C/D lanes between M-294 (Beadle Lake Rd) and Capital Ave SW are needed (regardless of whether I-94 is 6-laned in the next 20 years), and under I-194/M-66, they should be barrier separated (much like at I-94 and I-69 a few miles east). This would allow for plenty of time for all traffic to safely weave and merge as necessary to negotiate the three interchanges at Beadle Lake Rd, I-94/M-66, and Capital Ave SW.
The EBD rest area just east of Capital Ave SW needs to be relocated about 2 miles east, between Hedges Ln and Stone Jug Rd, and expanded to handle the > 10,000 commercial trucks that ply this section of I-94 daily. The current rest area is jammed full constantly and is too close to the Capital Ave SW exit. It's the first official EBD rest area for 95 miles and desperately needs a change. MDOT could also use another EBD rest area north of the Indiana line; I'd split the difference between the one at MM 35 and the one at MM 72 and put one in between the Decatur and Paw Paw exits, around MM 58.
The stoplight at Beckley Rd begs for something different, but they kinda missed the boat 50 years ago when they didn't obtain the ROW for it. They could put a SPUI or a parclo in (both would chew up commercial property south of Beckley Rd, but are doable. They could also move the ramps about 1500' south and come in behind the commercial properties, with traffic headed to/from SBD M-66 connecting to Whitmark Dr and NBD M-66 connecting to 6 Mile Rd.
MDOT also needs to extend the boulevard section of M-66 south to about F Drive South, and enforce access limits before sprawl makes it too expensive. I don't envision M-66 ever needing to become a freeway, but it's the most important N-S corridor and has the traffic to justify extension. I envision it looking much like M-37 immediately south of M-6.
MLive.com had a fairly detailed article about the ongoing U.S. 23 study in Ann Arbor. So far it looks like the leading alternatives are adding an additional lane between I-94 and M-14 or adding flex lanes. I honestly believe MDOT will widen 23 which is sorely needed. The study will wrap up next summer with construction starting in 2026 at the earliest.
Big U.S. 23 project coming to Ann Arbor corridor. Here's how to weigh inQuotePlans under development through the study process could include replacing the bridges along the route – four of which are in "poor" condition, according to a state database – as well as possibly widening the highway, MDOT officials previously told MLive/The Ann Arbor News.Additional lanes are a possibility, as is the addition of a flex lane, like the one present north of Ann Arbor on U.S. 23, they said.
Needs identified on the corridor include addressing aging infrastructure, modernizing antiquated geometric elements of the highway and easing the congestion, according to a MDOT video about the study process. The study will look at the condition of pavement and bridges, stormwater quality, operational deficiencies, non-motorized and transit connections across U.S. 23, traffic noise, aesthetics and the impact on surrounding land uses, officials say.
Goals of the project include increasing safety for users of multiple modes of transportation, including cyclists and public transit users, and working toward state and Ann Arbor goals of eliminating deaths and serious injuries on roadways and streets.
The study area stretches from the I-94 interchange to the south to the easternmost M-14 interchange to the north, including busy exits and crossings at Ellsworth Road, Packard Street, Washtenaw Avenue, Geddes Road, Earhart Road and Plymouth Road.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/06/big-us-23-project-coming-to-ann-arbor-corridor-heres-how-to-weigh-in.html&subscribed=google-oauth2%7C111097261880221082500
Quote from: afguy on June 12, 2023, 03:23:52 PM
MLive.com had a fairly detailed article about the ongoing U.S. 23 study in Ann Arbor. So far it looks like the leading alternatives are adding an additional lane between I-94 and M-14 or adding flex lanes. I honestly believe MDOT will widen 23 which is sorely needed. The study will wrap up next summer with construction starting in 2026 at the earliest.
I agree. They have to replace overpasses and rebuild most (all?) of the interchanges; there's no way MDOT is going to be able to band-aid this part of US-23 like the recently Flex-Laned section north to M-36. The traffic counts easily justify 3 lanes each way, approaching a need for 4 lanes each way in places. Available ROW is also a non-issue on this section, unlike that of the Flex-Laned section.
What I suspect MDOT will do is opt for a 6-lane footprint with a Flex Lane to open it up to 8-lanes, but build it out with sufficient room to add one more permanent lane later, to an 8-lane that can Flex to 10 lanes.
Between Washtenaw Ave and I-94, I could see 8 permanent lanes initially, with option to add 2 more and the option to Flex to 12. It's hard to overbuild on that section, which somehow is pulling over 80,000 vpd with 2 lanes.
They might as well continue on to US-12/Michigan Ave, which is nearly as busy as the section just before the east M-14 interchange. There's little evidence that the 8% population growth per decade Washtenaw County clocked between 2010 and 2020 is going to slow anytime soon.
This is honestly how US-23 should go starting in the north in Flint at the I-75 interchange near Bishop Airport.
I-75 split to I-96: 6 lanes.
I-96 to US-12: 8 lanes.
US-12 to the Ohio line: 6 lanes.
And let's add that this is something that should have been done 25-30 years ago.
Here's a link to the notice about the June 21st open house for the US-23 study:
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/06/09/mdot-public-open-house-june-21-on-us-23-study-in-washtenaw-county
There's a link to a video showing a project overview. I haven't watched it yet.
More information on the U.S. 23 project. The three alternatives being looked at are adding a third lane, a flex lane and HOV lanes. MDOT is also looking at improvements at the M-14/U.S. 23 interchange, M-17 interchange and the I-94 interchange.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/Studies/Traffic-and-Environmental-Assessment-Studies/US-23-Ann-Arbor/Local-Advisory-Group-Presentation-May-2023.pdf?rev=83706dba5a654aebabf517efb991e7a1&hash=476F666AE037A2463A29B115D639CEA4
Quote from: afguy on June 17, 2023, 08:07:38 AM
More information on the U.S. 23 project. The three alternatives being looked at are adding a third lane, a flex lane and HOV lanes. MDOT is also looking at improvements at the M-14/U.S. 23 interchange, M-17 interchange and the I-94 interchange.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/Studies/Traffic-and-Environmental-Assessment-Studies/US-23-Ann-Arbor/Local-Advisory-Group-Presentation-May-2023.pdf?rev=83706dba5a654aebabf517efb991e7a1&hash=476F666AE037A2463A29B115D639CEA4
Their plans seem underwhelming. Notably missing is a 6 full-time + 2 flex lanes arrangement. I get that the Flex Lane equipment and monitoring costs $$$, but this would seem to be a location such a scheme would come in handy. A rebuild with 4 full-time + 2 flex lanes is clearly unacceptable.
They just rebuilt a part of US 23 between M-59 and i-96 and all it was was a rebuild it was not a widening or anything it's still four lanes total.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2023, 03:23:42 PM
They just rebuilt a part of US 23 between M-59 and i-96 and all it was was a rebuild it was not a widening or anything it's still four lanes total.
It was a resurfacing, not a rebuild.
Could someone provide a list of updates depicted on the 2022 edition and 2023 edition of the Michigan official transportation map?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 20, 2023, 03:30:45 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2023, 03:23:42 PM
They just rebuilt a part of US 23 between M-59 and i-96 and all it was was a rebuild it was not a widening or anything it's still four lanes total.
It was a resurfacing, not a rebuild.
Well whatever it was it has new asphalt.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2023, 10:14:09 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 20, 2023, 03:30:45 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2023, 03:23:42 PM
They just rebuilt a part of US 23 between M-59 and i-96 and all it was was a rebuild it was not a widening or anything it's still four lanes total.
It was a resurfacing, not a rebuild.
Well whatever it was it has new asphalt.
The distinction is important, because the difference between "new asphalt" and "ground-up rebuild" is enormous. This goes to the entire justification for the Flex Lanes.
A ground-up rebuild to Interstate-standard freeway is very expensive and takes a long time to build. If the bridges and underlying roadway still have life remaining, it's far cheaper to just widen a bit in the middle, put up a sturdy center median barrier, and lay down fresh asphalt.
Is it as good as a proper widening? Hell no. I don't think anyone here would argue otherwise. At some point the traffic loads are too large for a Flex Lane setup to help.
Does it free up cash to put towards other roadwork where they HAVE to rebuild from scratch? Yes.
Quote from: midwesternroadguy on June 24, 2023, 04:16:55 AM
Could someone provide a list of updates depicted on the 2022 edition and 2023 edition of the Michigan official transportation map?
Can't say I've studied them side-by-side in detail, but the 2023 map shows the southern extension of M-30 (between M-20 and M-46) and the US-31 freeway connection with I-94. A few errors regarding the latter: The Napier Road connector is still shown in trunkline red, the former BL I-94 (Benton Harbor) divided highway and interchange (former exit 33) are still shown, and the new US-31 interchange shows no exit number (it's the new exit 33). The new realigned BL I-94 carriageway is shown, but in non-trunkline gray.
(https://i.imgur.com/tkMqxxO.jpg)
Was Saginaw Street/ Road in Flint ever part of US 10 before it got truncated to Saginaw?
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2023, 07:03:31 AM
Was Saginaw Street/ Road in Flint ever part of US 10 before it got truncated to Saginaw?
For a few years in the beginning before Dort Highway was built, it's always been called Saginaw Street though as it's part of the Saginaw Trail. Saginaw became M-10 and then Business US-10 after that. Outside of that it was Saginaw Road from the split with Dort Highway north of Mount Morris and south of the Dort Highway/Saginaw Road split in Grand Blanc. North of town US-10 and US-23 ran concurrently. US-23 was on Fenton Road south of town.
NB I-75 is backed up across the entire length of the Mackinac Bridge. I'm at Clyde's in St. Ignace and just crossed the bridge it took about a half hour to cross it.
The Bridge cams tell the tale. https://www.mackinacbridge.org/fares-traffic/bridge-cam/
SM-G991U
From today's
Detroit Free Press:
Quote
Construction for part of the state's long-awaited expansion of the U.S. Customs Plaza at the Blue Water Bridge could be underway in less than a year.
The massive project, spearheaded by the Michigan Department of Transportation, has been in the works for close to two decades, but has gained steam within the last couple of years after a wait on funding delayed its launch and as the agency has finalized its plans.
Now, with a stamp of approval for its design concept from the Federal Highway Administration, Carrie Warren, senior project manager for the plaza expansion, said they're expecting to wrap up the design and engineering process for the first phase before breaking ground early next year.
That initial work will include reconfiguring the intersection of Pine Grove and 10th avenues to accommodate a new off-ramp slightly further south of the bridge, as well as reconstruction of the eastbound Interstate 94 MDOT maintenance building, potential noise walls, and landscaping along Scott Avenue.
"It is a design-bid-build project for about $40 million. It's currently in design. We will be having a plan review, which is about 60% plans, a week from tomorrow with the city (and) Aug. 7 with the MDOT QA/QC (quality assurance and control) staff, so we're well on our way," Warren told Port Huron City Council members during a presentation on Monday. "We expect to advertise it for a (bid) letting in March of next year and begin construction in April or May -- probably closer to May."
The second phase planning will continue next summer, with construction on that expected in early 2025.
The latest footprint planned is about 75% of the original project proposed in the late 2000s, meaning some of the property MDOT originally accumulated for the plaza expansion is not included.
Overall, MDOT is planning an expansion by building new facilities to replace the current while also reportedly aiming to spur safer and clearer traffic paths throughout the plaza by:
- Moving toll booths and outbound primary inspection for U.S. Customs and Border Protection slightly west
- Relocating Duty Free to the south side with a new entrance ramp that would loop around it
Currently, the entrance ramp and Duty Free are just north of the bridge. The existing layout requires trucks to exit the highway to access Duty Free, which officials have said is potential hazard for traffic on Pine Grove Avenue.
The relocation of Duty Free will be included in the second phase, as will new toll booths, the MDOT administration building, plaza storage, CBP outbound building and inspection booths, associated parking for bridge structures, a westbound I-94 entrance ramp, plaza entrance and exit ramps.
It's slated to cost $160 million with two years' worth of construction continuing into 2026.
Full article at https://www.freep.com/story/news/2023/07/12/heres-what-to-expect-for-mdots-massive-blue-water-bridge-plaza-expansion/70401303007/
I believe the original plan years ago would have relocated Pine Grove Avenue to the west, where the current connector road between M-25 and I-94/I-69 is.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53044347925_e8658a98f7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oPm9AR)
I don't remember where I got this image from but here you go. It seems like the Bridges in Detroit will only be referred to by their names on the BGS.
So exit 46 will be the Gordie Howe, 47B the Ambassador, and 51C to the Tunnel
Since the existing sign on Interstate 75 to the Ambassador Bridge has a Canadian Flag on it, it is likely the future sign to the Gordie Howe Internation Bridge will have one too (although a To ON 401 shield on the sign would suffice as well).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 13, 2023, 11:06:47 PM
Since the existing sign on Interstate 75 to the Ambassador Bridge has a Canadian Flag on it, it is likely the future sign to the Gordie Howe Internation Bridge will have one too (although a To ON 401 shield on the sign would suffice as well).
That's all they'll have on it is the Canadian flag as well as No Re-entry to USA.
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on July 13, 2023, 06:16:15 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53044347925_e8658a98f7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oPm9AR)
This mock-up makes it seem as though the Ambassador Bridge is free. Which it is definitely not.
Like one is trying to trick motorists to use the for-profit bridge by making them skip the exit for the Howe Bridge. :-/
Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 14, 2023, 09:37:54 AM
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on July 13, 2023, 06:16:15 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53044347925_e8658a98f7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oPm9AR)
This mock-up makes it seem as though the Ambassador Bridge is free. Which it is definitely not.
Like one is trying to trick motorists to use the for-profit bridge by making them skip the exit for the Howe Bridge. :-/
Without knowing the source of this image, I'm not jumping to any conclusions. This doesn't look like other renderings/animations I've seen from MDOT. For starters, I've never before seen a "night view" rendering. And the lettering is very different between the two signs.
Following current MDOT convention, neither sign would be marked as toll. They also would have a big yellow banner labeled "NO RE-ENTRY TO USA". MDOT is also generally consistent with types of signage, so if the Gordie got a Toll banner, so would the Ambassador. There's no Mouron family love at MDOT.
Current approach to the Blue Water: https://goo.gl/maps/QPwhFPhBZVzWaxuK6
Current approach to the Ambassador: https://goo.gl/maps/FkaCSy61jkXQm2R38
In Sault Ste. Marie they don't use the yellow NO RE-ENTRY TO USA sign but rather use a LAST EXIT BEFORE FARE sign on the Easterday Avenue exit sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.4889431,-84.3741443,3a,49.2y,21.88h,102.56t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIC3Qk2I5fhr7xIYFR8lGmA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DIC3Qk2I5fhr7xIYFR8lGmA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D291.1625%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Is the International Bridge adequate as a two-lane bridge? I would have constructed it as a four-lane bridge.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 15, 2023, 10:13:48 PM
Is the International Bridge adequate as a two-lane bridge? I would have constructed it as a four-lane bridge.
Yes, it's adequate. There are no backups because of insufficient lanes. Any backups are due to more traffic than the immigration booths can handle. You can make the damn bridge 20 lanes and that won't speed up anything. Ditto the Blue Water Bridge, Ambassador Bridge, Detroit-Windsor Tunnel, and all other international crossings.
If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!" :-D
Do Michiganders have a specific name for the infamous backlit cube that is on most stoplights and flashing beacons featuring traffic control icons?
I always found that suspended cube to be fascinating when I visited there in 08.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2023, 07:53:10 PM
Do Michiganders have a specific name for the infamous backlit cube that is on most stoplights and flashing beacons featuring traffic control icons?
I always found that suspended cube to be fascinating when I visited there in 08.
Not that I know of.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 17, 2023, 04:44:57 PM
If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!" :-D
I was up in the U.P. on Saturday driving around. I have a place in Cedarville so I stopped there for awhile and hung out at Cattails Cove which is a bar in Cedarville. After I left there I wanted to take a little drive before I started heading back home because I had to work the next day so I couldn't stay. So I started east on M-134 and then it hit me on how remote the U.P. really is. Like not seeing other cars for miles, seeing nothing but remote forest and then some lake views which are nice. I then headed up M-48 from it's eastern terminus and followed that back to Mackinac Trail. But in reality that part of the U.P. is so remote that a two lane highway would work fine. I had to take Mackinac Trail for 11 miles since I was going southbound I didn't take M-48 to Rudyard and get on there but instead turned left and got on at exit 359. I was able to do 70-75 mph in the stretch of Mackinac Trail I was on and when I got on I-75 SB there were no cars at all in front of me or behind me for as far as I could see. This highway is indeed one of the least traveled stretches of Interstate highway in the country Sault Ste. Marie is a somewhat decent sized city for the U.P. it's a big city but it is isolated from the rest of the state and really isn't very big just big for U.P. standards.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 17, 2023, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 17, 2023, 04:44:57 PM
If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!" :-D
I was up in the U.P. on Saturday driving around. I have a place in Cedarville so I stopped there for awhile and hung out at Cattails Cove which is a bar in Cedarville. After I left there I wanted to take a little drive before I started heading back home because I had to work the next day so I couldn't stay. So I started east on M-134 and then it hit me on how remote the U.P. really is. Like not seeing other cars for miles, seeing nothing but remote forest and then some lake views which are nice. I then headed up M-48 from it's eastern terminus and followed that back to Mackinac Trail. But in reality that part of the U.P. is so remote that a two lane highway would work fine. I had to take Mackinac Trail for 11 miles since I was going southbound I didn't take M-48 to Rudyard and get on there but instead turned left and got on at exit 359. I was able to do 70-75 mph in the stretch of Mackinac Trail I was on and when I got on I-75 SB there were no cars at all in front of me or behind me for as far as I could see. This highway is indeed one of the least traveled stretches of Interstate highway in the country Sault Ste. Marie is a somewhat decent sized city for the U.P. it's a big city but it is isolated from the rest of the state and really isn't very big just big for U.P. standards.
I drove I-75 in 08 north of St. Ignace and I saw one car every two minutes pass the other way. I was amazed at how sparsely populated that part of the state was even on the interstate.
As far as Sault Ste. Marie goes, I believe it’s because of its larger sister across the border. I’m guessing the majority of patrons crossing the bridge between the two are locals or regional UP residents. Sault Ste. Marie, ON has more action than Sault Ste. Marie, MI and I’m sure many cross the border as simple as us going to the biggest nearby city within our own state. Most residents near Sault Ste. Marie consider going to Canada as a simple drive up the road.
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 17, 2023, 04:44:57 PM
If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!" :-D
If not for the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956 and attendant national defense demands, it's unlikely a 4-lane freeway would have been built to Sault Ste. Marie. The US-2 alignment it replaced was plenty adequate for traffic demands of the 1960s, and aside from some modernization would be adequate today absent I-75. We'd likely have seen a 2 or 4-lane St. Ignace bypass, and maybe the last few miles to the Soo north of M-28 would've been 4-laned by now. But it's unlikely much more of that would've materialized; the area has had stable or declining population for the last 50 years.
It's a safe bet absent an Interstate highway Michigan would've have extended a freeway to the Mackinac Bridge. Given MDOT's rapid buildout of US-10 west of Bay City and the US-27 expressway/freeway north to the Bridge, that was clearly their game plan to manage weekend "Up North" traffic from metro Detroit prior to the Interstate act.
Absent a federal mandate, I-75 north of Bay City to Grayling seems unlikely to have made the cut, despite being 15 miles shorter than US-10/US-27. I suspect US-10/US-27 would've managed traffic from metro Detroit "Up North" adequately even today with few changes, aside from safety upgrades and possibly some 6-laning of US-10 around Midland.
US-23 was already 4-laned north of Bay City (albeit as undivided highway); short of Alpena having the influx of folks Traverse City has today, I doubt much would've changed.
US-131 would likely be the same or similar to what it is now; no Federal mandate compelled MDOT to punch a freeway up to Manton. Ditto for US-31, probably.
I also suspect much of the rest of Michigan's freeway network would be similar to today's absent federal mandate. However, with 150 miles of I-75 freeway not built "Up North", MDOT may well have reallocated funding to a Toledo to Jackson connection, or built out US-31 and US-131 farther north, or a more direct Detroit to Chicago connection?
Wisconsin, in the absence of federal mandate and with half of Michigan's population, was understandably slower to bring 4-lane expressways and freeways north. Duluth/Superior wasn't a big enough draw to get a full 4-lane US-53 built until well after 2000. Wausau didn't get an Interstate placard until the 1990s, with US-51 only 4-laned and converted to freeway a few years earlier. Even as a regional destination from the central and western U.P., Green Bay didn't merit having a 4-lane US-41/141 north towards Abrams until the early '90s, with a 4-lane US-41 only reaching completion to Marinette a little over a decade ago.
The UP probably doesn't need to widen US 2 either, as it's two lanes more than likely handles the needs placed upon it.
I believe only 4 percent of Michigan's general population lives in the UP.
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 17, 2023, 11:41:04 PM
Absent a federal mandate, I-75 north of Bay City to Grayling seems unlikely to have made the cut, despite being 15 miles shorter than US-10/US-27. I suspect US-10/US-27 would've managed traffic from metro Detroit "Up North" adequately even today with few changes, aside from safety upgrades and possibly some 6-laning of US-10 around Midland.
I concur that the current route of I-75 would not have been built. But US-10 would have to be 6 lanes at least from Bay City to Midland, and probably to Clare. The current I-75 from Bay City to the northern US-23 split is often inadequate at 4 lanes.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2023, 11:51:10 PM
The UP probably doesn't need to widen US 2 either, as it's two lanes more than likely handles the needs placed upon it.
I believe only 4 percent of Michigan's general population lives in the UP.
While the population of the UP is small, there's a lot of vacation traffic. US-2 does slow down in sections where there's not enough passing lanes. The same with M-28 and US-41.
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though. Just another case of Google Maps sucking.
Thanks for confirming.
It's two lanes in each direction from 13 Mile to I-696. They are doing SB this year, they did NB last year to finish up that stretch.
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though. Just another case of Google Maps sucking.
Thanks for confirming.
Was your intent to exit to 12 Mile Road, 11 Mile Road, or I-696? Those southbound I-75 exits are closed this year.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2023, 09:52:28 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 17, 2023, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 17, 2023, 04:44:57 PM
If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!" :-D
I was up in the U.P. on Saturday driving around. I have a place in Cedarville so I stopped there for awhile and hung out at Cattails Cove which is a bar in Cedarville. After I left there I wanted to take a little drive before I started heading back home because I had to work the next day so I couldn't stay. So I started east on M-134 and then it hit me on how remote the U.P. really is. Like not seeing other cars for miles, seeing nothing but remote forest and then some lake views which are nice. I then headed up M-48 from it's eastern terminus and followed that back to Mackinac Trail. But in reality that part of the U.P. is so remote that a two lane highway would work fine. I had to take Mackinac Trail for 11 miles since I was going southbound I didn't take M-48 to Rudyard and get on there but instead turned left and got on at exit 359. I was able to do 70-75 mph in the stretch of Mackinac Trail I was on and when I got on I-75 SB there were no cars at all in front of me or behind me for as far as I could see. This highway is indeed one of the least traveled stretches of Interstate highway in the country Sault Ste. Marie is a somewhat decent sized city for the U.P. it's a big city but it is isolated from the rest of the state and really isn't very big just big for U.P. standards.
I drove I-75 in 08 north of St. Ignace and I saw one car every two minutes pass the other way. I was amazed at how sparsely populated that part of the state was even on the interstate.
As far as Sault Ste. Marie goes, I believe it's because of its larger sister across the border. I'm guessing the majority of patrons crossing the bridge between the two are locals or regional UP residents. Sault Ste. Marie, ON has more action than Sault Ste. Marie, MI and I'm sure many cross the border as simple as us going to the biggest nearby city within our own state. Most residents near Sault Ste. Marie consider going to Canada as a simple drive up the road.
Actually the Lower Peninsula is pretty sparsely populated in the northern part too just the U.P. is even more sparsely populated. Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan is of course the control city up there. The Ontario city is bigger but even that city is sparsely populated like many cities in Canada, it has around 75,000 people which for the area is pretty big but factor in that the Ontario city takes up 86 square miles that's about 872 people per square mile, the Michigan city only takes about 15 square miles and has a population of about 13,000 people for a density of about the same. So my point is in reality they feel about the same. It just seems like larger Canadian cities take up a lot of land area giving them a bigger city feel sometimes.
I've been across the International Bridge before but the thing is you need a passport or enhanced drivers license to cross which makes it a little more difficult for some people. Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario does have a little more going on around the downtown area than Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan does though.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 18, 2023, 09:11:57 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though. Just another case of Google Maps sucking.
Thanks for confirming.
Was your intent to exit to 12 Mile Road, 11 Mile Road, or I-696? Those southbound I-75 exits are closed this year.
Nope.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2023, 11:51:10 PM
The UP probably doesn't need to widen US 2 either, as it's two lanes more than likely handles the needs placed upon it.
I believe only 4 percent of Michigan's general population lives in the UP.
The 2020 population for the U.P. was 301,609, the population of the state was 10,077,331. You were about dead on, actually it'd be about 2.9% of the population.
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 09:17:22 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 18, 2023, 09:11:57 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though. Just another case of Google Maps sucking.
Thanks for confirming.
Was your intent to exit to 12 Mile Road, 11 Mile Road, or I-696? Those southbound I-75 exits are closed this year.
Nope.
It might depend on where you were trying to get on at, the SB service drive is closed in areas.
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though. Just another case of Google Maps sucking.
Thanks for confirming.
Another thought on this. Google wouldn't give me directions for getting on SB I-75 at 9 Mile / John R. The SB service drive is open to the entrance ramp, but closed after that. I'm guessing Google wasn't given or couldn't pull the correct closure spot. There may have been something similar in the mainline routing you were attempting.
And from time to time, various sections of metro Detroit freeway construction projects are closed completely for weekends. Part of I-696 will be closed this coming weekend.
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though. Just another case of Google Maps sucking.
Thanks for confirming.
Another thought on this. Google wouldn't give me directions for getting on SB I-75 at 9 Mile / John R. The SB service drive is open to the entrance ramp, but closed after that. I'm guessing Google wasn't given or couldn't pull the correct closure spot. There may have been something similar in the mainline routing you were attempting.
And from time to time, various sections of metro Detroit freeway construction projects are closed completely for weekends. Part of I-696 will be closed this coming weekend.
There is a bridge in Saginaw (Johnson Street Bridge over the Saginaw River) that was closed earlier this year in the Spring. It's now reopen and Google still routes me around it making me turn onto Niagara Street to Genesee Avenue and then going over the river there. What I just said here is just an example of Google not getting it right, it's a minor detour but Google is wrong.
Here's another thing about Google and it was discussed on this forum when it happened but I remember a couple years ago there was a traffic backup on I-70 in Denver and Google routed a bunch of cars down a dirt road where the cars proceeded to get stuck. It was around 100 cars that this happened to. Google is right most of the time but there are times where they are completely wrong. In fact I was looking at Google Maps in my area today and noticed a street that Google says is there but it isn't, the street in question is Eastlawn.
Here is a map of the area, Eastlawn does not exist between Broadway and Orange, then dead ends west of Orange.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3879311,-83.9106426,17z?entry=ttu
Don't you think this would be a good place for a No Outlet sign?
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3885834,-83.9123849,3a,75y,357.16h,89.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swU8CwgXvUjnmIKi__cwYQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though. Just another case of Google Maps sucking.
Thanks for confirming.
Another thought on this. Google wouldn't give me directions for getting on SB I-75 at 9 Mile / John R. The SB service drive is open to the entrance ramp, but closed after that. I'm guessing Google wasn't given or couldn't pull the correct closure spot. There may have been something similar in the mainline routing you were attempting.
And from time to time, various sections of metro Detroit freeway construction projects are closed completely for weekends. Part of I-696 will be closed this coming weekend.
I was playing around with directions from way northwest -- Waterford, MI to downtown Detroit. Google was and still is making me get off of I-75 north of I-696 nonetheless.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 18, 2023, 09:20:10 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2023, 11:51:10 PM
The UP probably doesn't need to widen US 2 either, as it's two lanes more than likely handles the needs placed upon it.
I believe only 4 percent of Michigan's general population lives in the UP.
The 2020 population for the U.P. was 301,609, the population of the state was 10,077,331. You were about dead on, actually it'd be about 2.9% of the population.
Not only that, but 80% of the U.P.'s population lies west of Munising, in the central and western U.P.. Yoopers are more economically tied to Green Bay or Milwaukee (and to a smaller degree Wausau) than downstate Michigan. Likewise, there's significantly greater tourist traffic bubbling up from Wisconsin and Illinois than from lower Michigan, which tends to stay under the bridge.
Only about 60,000 residents reside in the eastern U.P.. It's barely enough to sustain chains like Meijer and Wal-Mart in the Soo. Those closer to St. Ignace are more likely to hop over the bridge to Cheboygan or Petoskey rather than venture north, while folks near Munising or Manistique will go to Marquette or Escanaba instead. Does Soo Ontario see significant shopping traffic from the eastern U.P.? Doubt it.
All of this tends to support the (lack of) traffic on I-75 past St. Ignace.
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 02:44:54 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 18, 2023, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right? Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.
Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.
I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though. Just another case of Google Maps sucking.
Thanks for confirming.
Another thought on this. Google wouldn't give me directions for getting on SB I-75 at 9 Mile / John R. The SB service drive is open to the entrance ramp, but closed after that. I'm guessing Google wasn't given or couldn't pull the correct closure spot. There may have been something similar in the mainline routing you were attempting.
And from time to time, various sections of metro Detroit freeway construction projects are closed completely for weekends. Part of I-696 will be closed this coming weekend.
I was playing around with directions from way northwest -- Waterford, MI to downtown Detroit. Google was and still is making me get off of I-75 north of I-696 nonetheless.
Yup, it's messed up. You don't have to get off at 14 Mile.
Updated Google Street View images of a significant portion of what used-to-be and is-now-again M-30 between M-20 and M-46 got posted recently, with a date stamp of July 2023. Conspicuous in their absence are any reassurance signs indicating its status as a state highway.
@ M-46 - https://goo.gl/maps/cvXiFbrdFg9o5Ldz8 (https://goo.gl/maps/cvXiFbrdFg9o5Ldz8)
@ Frost Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/2hnbTBQbdK6NsmGy6 (https://goo.gl/maps/2hnbTBQbdK6NsmGy6)
@ Dice Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/m4wTCJ8JaHTdQ2AE7 (https://goo.gl/maps/m4wTCJ8JaHTdQ2AE7)
@ Redstone Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/kXSePuCDhq9yiywHA (https://goo.gl/maps/kXSePuCDhq9yiywHA)
Notice the center rumble strips start just north of the intersection here. They were not present in earlier Street View images. Is this MDOT working to bring M-30 up to state highway standards?
@ Tittawabassee Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/6fUgbKWKqyn5m4Bg8 (https://goo.gl/maps/6fUgbKWKqyn5m4Bg8)
@ E Laporte Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/q9pcwfA7eFQcqJ9bA (https://goo.gl/maps/q9pcwfA7eFQcqJ9bA)
This is where the updated Street View imagery ends; it appears the Street View car traveled west on E Laporte Rd, then traveled south on M-30.
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 20, 2023, 09:33:57 PM
Updated Google Street View images of a significant portion of what used-to-be and is-now-again M-30 between M-20 and M-46 got posted recently, with a date stamp of July 2023. Conspicuous in their absence are any reassurance signs indicating its status as a state highway.
@ M-46 - https://goo.gl/maps/cvXiFbrdFg9o5Ldz8 (https://goo.gl/maps/cvXiFbrdFg9o5Ldz8)
@ Frost Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/2hnbTBQbdK6NsmGy6 (https://goo.gl/maps/2hnbTBQbdK6NsmGy6)
@ Dice Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/m4wTCJ8JaHTdQ2AE7 (https://goo.gl/maps/m4wTCJ8JaHTdQ2AE7)
@ Redstone Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/kXSePuCDhq9yiywHA (https://goo.gl/maps/kXSePuCDhq9yiywHA)
Notice the center rumble strips start just north of the intersection here. They were not present in earlier Street View images. Is this MDOT working to bring M-30 up to state highway standards?
@ Tittawabassee Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/6fUgbKWKqyn5m4Bg8 (https://goo.gl/maps/6fUgbKWKqyn5m4Bg8)
@ E Laporte Rd - https://goo.gl/maps/q9pcwfA7eFQcqJ9bA (https://goo.gl/maps/q9pcwfA7eFQcqJ9bA)
This is where the updated Street View imagery ends; it appears the Street View car traveled west on E Laporte Rd, then traveled south on M-30.
I live near there and no they haven't done anything really.
From today's
Detroit Free Press: S.S. Badger ferry carrying traffic across Lake Michigan suspends service (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/07/22/s-s-badger-lake-michigan-carferry-ludington-manitowoc-wisconsin-closed/70450071007/)
Quote
LUDINGTON, Mich. – A ferry carrying traffic across Lake Michigan suspended trips indefinitely on Friday after a mechanical failure of its ramping system.
Lake Michigan Carferry, which owns and operates the S.S. Badger from Ludington, Michigan, to Manitowoc, Wisconsin, said it has "engaged a quick-response team of Great Lakes partners to repair the issue as quickly and safely as possible. They are at work now assessing the situation."
Ticketed passengers can call 1-800-841-4243 for a refund or to change a reservation.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 22, 2023, 08:55:37 AM
From today's Detroit Free Press: S.S. Badger ferry carrying traffic across Lake Michigan suspends service (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/07/22/s-s-badger-lake-michigan-carferry-ludington-manitowoc-wisconsin-closed/70450071007/)
Quote
LUDINGTON, Mich. – A ferry carrying traffic across Lake Michigan suspended trips indefinitely on Friday after a mechanical failure of its ramping system.
Lake Michigan Carferry, which owns and operates the S.S. Badger from Ludington, Michigan, to Manitowoc, Wisconsin, said it has "engaged a quick-response team of Great Lakes partners to repair the issue as quickly and safely as possible. They are at work now assessing the situation."
Ticketed passengers can call 1-800-841-4243 for a refund or to change a reservation.
In other words, US-10 is CLOSED between Ludington and Manitowoc. ;-)
I wonder at which point the owners decide to replace/supplement the SS Badger. Reportedly the SS Spartan (the twin of the Badger) is in no condition to be put back into service - and the EPA would not allow the coal-burning boilers to make a comeback.
Interlake Maritime Services (current parent company) appears to have the financial wherewithal to repair or replace the SS Badger should it become necessary. But the fact that they haven't made substantive changes to the SS Badger (still runs on coal) or lined up a suitable sister or alternative ship to the Badger tells me that they don't want to make that kind of investment on the route.
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 24, 2023, 03:04:08 AM
I wonder at which point the owners decide to replace/supplement the SS Badger. Reportedly the SS Spartan (the twin of the Badger) is in no condition to be put back into service - and the EPA would not allow the coal-burning boilers to make a comeback.
Interlake Maritime Services (current parent company) appears to have the financial wherewithal to repair or replace the SS Badger should it become necessary. But the fact that they haven't made substantive changes to the SS Badger (still runs on coal) or lined up a suitable sister or alternative ship to the Badger tells me that they don't want to make that kind of investment on the route.
Glad I got to ride it once before it went away.
I'm sure the S.S. Badger will reopen at some point, although the vessel used will probably be replaced before it reopens.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 24, 2023, 10:33:20 AM
I'm sure the S.S. Badger will reopen at some point, although the vessel used will probably be replaced before it reopens.
I think they will probably just fix the "ramping system" and be back in service. I really doubt they will ever be able to afford a complete replacement of the Badger given the costs involved.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 24, 2023, 07:08:58 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 24, 2023, 03:04:08 AM
I wonder at which point the owners decide to replace/supplement the SS Badger. Reportedly the SS Spartan (the twin of the Badger) is in no condition to be put back into service - and the EPA would not allow the coal-burning boilers to make a comeback.
Interlake Maritime Services (current parent company) appears to have the financial wherewithal to repair or replace the SS Badger should it become necessary. But the fact that they haven't made substantive changes to the SS Badger (still runs on coal) or lined up a suitable sister or alternative ship to the Badger tells me that they don't want to make that kind of investment on the route.
Glad I got to ride it once before it went away.
It'll be back. They aren't sure on when though.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 24, 2023, 10:33:20 AM
I'm sure the S.S. Badger will reopen at some point, although the vessel used will probably be replaced before it reopens.
That thing is about 70 years old. I'm wondering how easy it is to get parts for that.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 24, 2023, 10:38:22 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 24, 2023, 10:33:20 AM
I'm sure the S.S. Badger will reopen at some point, although the vessel used will probably be replaced before it reopens.
I think they will probably just fix the "ramping system" and be back in service. I really doubt they will ever be able to afford a complete replacement of the Badger given the costs involved.
Plus it really wasn't all that long ago that they made a sizable investment to install the equipment needed to comply with EPA regulations.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 24, 2023, 11:15:35 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 24, 2023, 10:33:20 AM
I'm sure the S.S. Badger will reopen at some point, although the vessel used will probably be replaced before it reopens.
That thing is about 70 years old. I'm wondering how easy it is to get parts for that.
If it's the right parts, they're sitting at the dock, on the Spartan.
But once a unique critical part has to be replaced a second time, it gets more complicated. I'm sure some parts are custom made.
Beginning 10/01/2023, the Mackinac Bridge will no longer accept Canadian cash for the tolls.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/07/25/canadian-cash-mackinac-bridge-authority/70463760007/
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 25, 2023, 11:22:17 PM
Beginning 10/01/2023, the Mackinac Bridge will no longer accept Canadian cash for the tolls.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/07/25/canadian-cash-mackinac-bridge-authority/70463760007/
When I first saw the headline I was like WTF! Then I read the article and now I completely understand why. That's a hell of a process after accepting the Canadian cash.
Quote from: plain on July 26, 2023, 12:06:25 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 25, 2023, 11:22:17 PM
Beginning 10/01/2023, the Mackinac Bridge will no longer accept Canadian cash for the tolls.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/07/25/canadian-cash-mackinac-bridge-authority/70463760007/
When I first saw the headline I was like WTF! Then I read the article and now I completely understand why. That's a hell of a process after accepting the Canadian cash.
True Americans should never accept cash with the British Monarch on it.
That's fine. I never have any Canadian cash on me anyway.
Quote from: Rothman on July 26, 2023, 07:06:28 AM
Quote from: plain on July 26, 2023, 12:06:25 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 25, 2023, 11:22:17 PM
Beginning 10/01/2023, the Mackinac Bridge will no longer accept Canadian cash for the tolls.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/07/25/canadian-cash-mackinac-bridge-authority/70463760007/
When I first saw the headline I was like WTF! Then I read the article and now I completely understand why. That's a hell of a process after accepting the Canadian cash.
True Americans should never accept cash with the British Monarch on it.
Are they keeping the Queen on their money even though she has passed on?
I have $3.76 in Canadian coins, as well as a $5 bill I found on the streets of Toronto in 1998. As I haven't been to Canada in 20 years, I don't expect any of my Canadian money to be spent any time soon.
MDOT has rescheduled the public house meeting for the CAV lane to August 15th. From the press release they finally provided a bit more detail on the set up of this lane. It will use of the existing lanes along I-94. I'm not sure that I like this set up of mixing automated and manual traffic.
QuoteThe proposed CAV corridor project is a partnership between Cavnue and MDOT and envisions repurposing an existing travel lane into a technology-enabled express lane along each direction of I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit that will accommodate a mix of traditional personal vehicles, CAVs, transit, and shared mobility services. The proposed project will involve installing technology to enhance safety and efficiency for all users of the corridor. A public outreach process is underway pursuant to the requirements under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 to identify potential project impacts.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/08/01/mdot-public-open-house-aug-15-to-discuss-proposed-cav-lane-along-i-94
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 24, 2023, 11:14:26 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 24, 2023, 07:08:58 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 24, 2023, 03:04:08 AM
I wonder at which point the owners decide to replace/supplement the SS Badger. Reportedly the SS Spartan (the twin of the Badger) is in no condition to be put back into service - and the EPA would not allow the coal-burning boilers to make a comeback.
Interlake Maritime Services (current parent company) appears to have the financial wherewithal to repair or replace the SS Badger should it become necessary. But the fact that they haven't made substantive changes to the SS Badger (still runs on coal) or lined up a suitable sister or alternative ship to the Badger tells me that they don't want to make that kind of investment on the route.
Glad I got to ride it once before it went away.
It'll be back. They aren't sure on when though.
The Badger itself is just fine. Their loading ramp in Ludington - which is attached to the shore, not the boat - has two large counterweight structures on either side of it, and one of those counterweights collapsed into the water after the underwater pilings gave out. Those structures are well over 100 years old, so it's not entirely surprising.
They announced yesterday that the Badger was shutting down for the rest of the season after underwater surveying and engineering determined that it wasn't going to be a quick fix to repair the collapsed tower. I believe Interlake intends on rebuilding the pilings for both counterweight towers to ensure that they're both structurally sound, and to have everything ready in time for the start of the Badger's season next May.
Quote from: jzn110 on August 02, 2023, 12:48:57 PM
They announced yesterday that the Badger was shutting down for the rest of the season after underwater surveying and engineering determined that it wasn't going to be a quick fix to repair the collapsed tower. I believe Interlake intends on rebuilding the pilings for both counterweight towers to ensure that they're both structurally sound, and to have everything ready in time for the start of the Badger's season next May.
That makes sense and explains the extended outage. I'm also going to guess that other ports like Frankfort or Manistee are out of the question because they don't have this ramp system needed to work with the S.S. Badger.
In the meantime, might be worth taking a trip to Ludington or Manitowoc to give a hand to the folks who are being affected by the early shutdown of the S.S. Badger.
More detail on the Badger shutdown and the Ludington dock: https://boatnerd.com/boatnerd-news-august-2-2023/
MLive had a great article on the proposed automated lane project along I-94 today. The project will stretch from Ann Arbor-Saline Rd to the Lodge Freeway using the existing far left lane. The lane would have barriers set up to separate it from the existing lanes and entry points would be designated. If a future phase as automated cars become more common, a lane would be built exclusively for them using private funds.
I-94 could host self-driving vehicle lanes between Ann Arbor and Detroit. Here's how to learn more(https://www.cavnue.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Corridor-Phasing-Map-webres-1536x933.jpg.webp)
QuoteWhen fully complete, it would stretch from Ann Arbor-Saline Road in Ann Arbor to M-10, the Lodge Freeway, in Detroit, officials said.
MDOT previously announced open houses in the Ann Arbor area in March for the project but then postponed them, saying officials and Cavnue needed "further alignment" on an environmental study necessary for the project before presenting it to the public. The Belleville event is meant to discuss the environmental study, and more meetings are anticipated at different points along the proposed corridor in Wayne and Washtenaw counties in 2023, MDOT officials said.
The Ann Arbor meetings haven't yet been rescheduled, though MDOT anticipates hosting an open house in Washtenaw County sometime this year, spokesperson Rob Morosi said in an email.
Officials have said the project would involve designated I-94 lanes with equipment for autonomous vehicles and smart technology, including sensors to detect traffic, weather and road conditions, while allowing driverless vehicles to communicate with each other.
"At its core, the project is designed to be "˜future-proofed' and evolve to meet transportation goals, beginning with connected buses and shared mobility vehicles such as vans and shuttles, and expanding to additional types of (connected and automated vehicles) such as freight and personal vehicles," reads a project description on MDOT's website. The lanes will likely be physically separated from the rest of the highway, accessible only at certain points. At the start of the project, all vehicles will be able to use them, but as self-driving vehicles become more common and their usage exceeds a certain threshold, the lanes may be restricted to only the high-tech vehicles, according to a question and answer page for the project.
Construction will bring improved pavement and updated striping on the far-left lane of I-94 in both directions, as well as new poles to support camera and sensor equipment installed along the median and new signs to identify lane entrances and exits, according to MDOT.
The building of the specialized lanes is expected to be privately funded, the agency says. They would be built in three phases, with the first stretching from U.S. 23 in the west to Oakwood Boulevard in the east.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/08/i-94-could-host-self-driving-vehicle-lanes-between-ann-arbor-and-detroit-heres-how-to-learn-more.html
Quote from: afguy on August 02, 2023, 03:08:52 PM
MLive had a great article on the proposed automated lane project along I-94 today. The project will stretch from Ann Arbor-Saline Rd to the Lodge Freeway using the existing far left lane. The lane would have barriers set up to separate it from the existing lanes and entry points would be designated. If a future phase as automated cars become more common, a lane would be built exclusively for them using private funds.
I-94 could host self-driving vehicle lanes between Ann Arbor and Detroit. Here's how to learn more
(https://www.cavnue.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Corridor-Phasing-Map-webres-1536x933.jpg.webp)
QuoteWhen fully complete, it would stretch from Ann Arbor-Saline Road in Ann Arbor to M-10, the Lodge Freeway, in Detroit, officials said.
MDOT previously announced open houses in the Ann Arbor area in March for the project but then postponed them, saying officials and Cavnue needed "further alignment" on an environmental study necessary for the project before presenting it to the public. The Belleville event is meant to discuss the environmental study, and more meetings are anticipated at different points along the proposed corridor in Wayne and Washtenaw counties in 2023, MDOT officials said.
The Ann Arbor meetings haven't yet been rescheduled, though MDOT anticipates hosting an open house in Washtenaw County sometime this year, spokesperson Rob Morosi said in an email.
Officials have said the project would involve designated I-94 lanes with equipment for autonomous vehicles and smart technology, including sensors to detect traffic, weather and road conditions, while allowing driverless vehicles to communicate with each other.
"At its core, the project is designed to be 'future-proofed' and evolve to meet transportation goals, beginning with connected buses and shared mobility vehicles such as vans and shuttles, and expanding to additional types of (connected and automated vehicles) such as freight and personal vehicles," reads a project description on MDOT's website. The lanes will likely be physically separated from the rest of the highway, accessible only at certain points. At the start of the project, all vehicles will be able to use them, but as self-driving vehicles become more common and their usage exceeds a certain threshold, the lanes may be restricted to only the high-tech vehicles, according to a question and answer page for the project.
Construction will bring improved pavement and updated striping on the far-left lane of I-94 in both directions, as well as new poles to support camera and sensor equipment installed along the median and new signs to identify lane entrances and exits, according to MDOT.
The building of the specialized lanes is expected to be privately funded, the agency says. They would be built in three phases, with the first stretching from U.S. 23 in the west to Oakwood Boulevard in the east.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/08/i-94-could-host-self-driving-vehicle-lanes-between-ann-arbor-and-detroit-heres-how-to-learn-more.html
A private lane built with private funds...
Brings to mind: "You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today!"
MDOT has the draft 2024-2028 5-year plan available. Overall I'm really not impressed with anything. Most of the big projects were previously announced such as the I-375 removal, the US-23 project in Ann Arbor and construction starting on the I-94 modernization project.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Five-Year-Transportation-Program/2024-2028-5YTP.pdf?rev=07a2ce289a334c369c97b882571db81e&hash=5D9F1B7C0A729F51E6FD32E36D6DD209
There is about a 7 mile traffic jam on I-96 right now east of Lansing, the eastbound traffic is backed up from Williamston Road to Okemos Road.
EDIT: Williamston Road not M-52.
MDOT has created a page for the proposed infrastructure improvements that will be taking place along I-94, I-69 and M-96 to make way for Ford's battery plant in Marshall. Below are the main improvements that will be made:
- Diverging Diamond Interchange at I-69/M-96 (Michigan Avenue)
- 3 lane boulevard (3x3) with indirect left turns along M-96 (Michigan Avenue) between
site entry at C Drive North and I-69 interchange
- Reroute of M-96 just west of 15 Mile Road (North leg) to accommodate direct access
into the Marshall Mega site for trucks and passenger vehicles
- Direct access off C Drive North
- Improvements at adjacent local roadway intersections to handle inbound/outbound
traffic
- Widening of I-69 to 3-lanes between I-94 and M-96
- System interchange improvements at I-69 and I-94 including widening the EB I-94 to SB
I-69; NB I-69 to EB I-69 and build a fly-over ramp for NB I-69 to WB I-94.
- 2 lane boulevard (2x2) with indirect left turns along M-96 (Michigan Avenue) between
M-311/11 Mile Rd and M-96/Main Entrance to site.
- Pedestrian enhancements along M-96 (Michigan Avenue)
- Diverging Diamond Interchange at I-94/M-96 (Michigan Avenue)/M-311 (11 Mile Road)
o Combination of 11 Mile Road and M-96 (Michigan Avenue) over I-94
3 lane boulevard with indirect left turns along M-96 (Michigan Avenue)/11 Mile Road
between I-94 interchange and M-96 east leg connection
- Widening of 11 Mile Road (2x2 lanes)
- Widening of I-94 to 3-lanes (in each direction) between M-311 and I-69 with median
barrier. MDOT is anticipating a subsequent separate future widening to 3-lanes (in each
direction) from Calhoun County Line to M-311 when Sackrider site is developed
- Wheatfield connection to existing truck stop facilities along 11 Mile Road
- Verona at 11 Mile Road: Dual northbound left-turn lane
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/additional-studies/marshall-modernization
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/Studies/Additional-Studies/Marshall-Modernization/Marshall-Traffic-Impact-Study.pdf?rev=a088b322237c45f5b469e0cf67e1971e&hash=420F987B7BB04F83849FDECA200E3BDC
Holy s***! There's going to be some massive changes in this area in a few short years!
- 27 miles of 4 lane -> 6-lane freeway upgrades
- A *flyover* ramp from NBD I-69 to I-94
- Complete rebuild of the I-94 interchange at M-96 (Michigan Ave)
- A 4-lane divided boulevard along M-96 (Michigan Ave) and M-311 (11 Mile Rd)
I also suspect with the additional traffic volume anticipated that it won't take long for MDOT to scrape together funding to extend the 6-laning eastward from Sprinkle Rd (Exit 80) in Kalamazoo. Current traffic counts are already well into the upper end of viability for a 4-lane freeway, and between Sprinkle Rd and 40th St (exit 88 east of Galesburg) requires a ground-up rebuild.
The I-94 segment between Sprinkle Rd and 40th St is early 1950's spec US-12 4-lane, designed and built prior to the Interstate highway system on a narrow 200' (if that) right-of-way. While the segments eastward towards and through Battle Creek were only built a handful of years later, the design spec is dramatically different - a 300' ROW and ample space for a third travel lane each way without touching the overpasses.
I was picturing a time frame for a full 6-laning of I-94 between US-131 and I-69 in the 2050-2060 range prior to this battery plant development. But with these developments, there's going to be pressure on MDOT to uncork I-94 in Kalamazoo County a lot quicker than that. 2035 seems awfully soon given the constraints of MDOT funding, but 2040 is certainly possible.
Can't see all the cars but southbound I-75 is a slow go across the Zilwaukee Bridge on a very dreary day around the middle of Michigan.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230806/78929932400c4c4fe544896f4346cd17.jpg)
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 06, 2023, 01:44:26 PM
southbound I-75 is a slow go across the Zilwaukee Bridge
They're all preparing for the closure in Oakland County.
https://www.clickondetroit.com/traffic/2023/07/27/i-75-closure-planned-for-next-weekend-in-oakland-county-what-drivers-should-know/
(Week old story, but it's relevant)
Quote from: JREwing78 on August 04, 2023, 09:21:09 PM
Holy s***! There's going to be some massive changes in this area in a few short years!
- 27 miles of 4 lane -> 6-lane freeway upgrades
- A *flyover* ramp from NBD I-69 to I-94
- Complete rebuild of the I-94 interchange at M-96 (Michigan Ave)
- A 4-lane divided boulevard along M-96 (Michigan Ave) and M-311 (11 Mile Rd)
According to the Mi.gov/drive traffic map, the existing loop ramp from nbd I-69 to wbd I-94 is scheduled to close this Friday through September 1st for reconstruction. I wonder if MDOT is putting a halt on that. I don't know whether the two slip ramps to and from ebd I-94 have yet been reconstructed, but if so I'm thinking they will be torn out and rebuilt again. Tacking on an additional lane to existing pavement around a curve doesn't sound like a good idea.
Construction started today on the pilot project for the CAV lanes on I-94. The three-mile pilot section will stretch from Haggerty to Rawsonville Road. Construction is expected to be complete by November.
Work begins on pilot project to build 'world’s most sophisticated roadway' in Wayne County(https://www.detroitnews.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2023/08/07/PDTN/70546156007-cavnue.PNG?width=660&height=376&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
QuoteA 3-mile stretch of the left lane of westbound I-94 from Haggerty to Rawsonville roads will be equipped with digital infrastructure, including an underground electrical conduit, to support CAV, or connected and automated vehicles. The shoulder on I-94 will be closed until early September while work is done.
"This pilot is the first-of-its-kind in the U.S. and will upgrade a portion of I-94 from Belleville to Rawsonville roads with technology to improve safety and operations by utilizing digital infrastructure," said Michelle Mueller, the senior project manger for connected and automated vehicles at Michigan Department of Transportation. "The pilot will allow us to document lessons learned, benefits, and evaluate potential business models for future deployment opportunities." Unveiled in 2020, the pilot project on I-94 aims to improve safety, congestion, and accessibility, according to state transportation officials. MDOT is partnering with Cavnue, a Washington D.C.-based technology firm that develops and integrates technologies for roadways, on the pilot. After September, crews will close the left lane in the area of I-94 to widen the roadway and resurface the road. Any closures with multiple lanes will be restricted to off-peak travel times, according to MDOT. This should be done by late November.
Eventually, existing left lanes on I-94 in each direction will be converted to support CAV use between Ann Arbor and Detroit. Described by Cavnue as "future-proof," it will have connected buses and shared mobility vehicles such as vans and shuttles before it expands to freight and personal vehicles.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/07/mdot-begins-pilot-project-on-connected-automated-vehicle-lane-in-wayne-county/70540898007/
^ Oh, this should be interesting. Let's physically separate a single lane on the left (no passing) with remaining traffic in two lanes on the right. What could possibly go wrong with traffic flow? Also, would be great to know how exit from/entrance to the left lane will be handled.
Why don't they just widen the damn highways and be done with it? MDOT is doing all these stupid things like the flex lanes on US-23 and now this?
I am not thrilled with the idea of flex lanes (although the Madison Beltline flex lanes could be an exception), since I think the shoulders of a highway should be used for emergency stops only. My question to Flint1979 is do you oppose the concept of flex lanes in general, or do you just oppose flex lanes on US 23? I would agree that 23 probably should get additional lanes, if need be, but the DOT has the final authority on that. As for the Interstate 94 pilot project, I would have preferred that the lane pictured be used as an express lane and do the pilot project on an uncongested rural roadway.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2023, 12:20:32 PM
I am not thrilled with the idea of flex lanes (although the Madison Beltline flex lanes could be an exception), since I think the shoulders of a highway should be used for emergency stops only. My question to Flint1979 is do you oppose the concept of flex lanes in general, or do you just oppose flex lanes on US 23? I would agree that 23 probably should get additional lanes, if need be, but the DOT has the final authority on that. As for the Interstate 94 pilot project, I would have preferred that the lane pictured be used as an express lane and do the pilot project on an uncongested rural roadway.
I think flex lanes are stupid in general, I just don't get why there is a lane there and it's not used 24 hours a day. As far as US-23 goes, that highway was part of my headache today along with I-96, I-275 and I-94. I-94 was so backed up that I had to get off it at the Southfield coming from Metro to downtown earlier and take the Southfield to I-75. But anyway yeah I would prefer at least 3 lanes in each direction for the entire 90 mile stretch of US-23 between Flint and the Ohio state line. I can usually knock it out in a little over an hour but it is stressful at times especially the part between Ann Arbor and I-96.
Yesterday during the peak of Detroit's afternoon rush hour Dearborn police discovered the body of a deceased woman on the Southfield Freeway just after the Ford Road exit.
I got this email today in regard to the status of the M-3 PEL study in Detroit:
QuoteThis project is now underway and engagement with stakeholders has begun. We are now planning our first public meeting in early September at Eastern Market (date and shed are not yet confirmed). At this meeting we plan to discuss the project, what issues residents are seeing along the corridor, begin discussing a draft purpose and need statement for the project, and to start talking about solutions for Gratiot.
I have feeling MDOT is going to have Gratiot look similar to what they are planning for Michigan Ave in Corktown.
Quote from: afguy on August 04, 2023, 06:15:02 PM
MDOT has created a page for the proposed infrastructure improvements that will be taking place along I-94, I-69 and M-96 to make way for Ford's battery plant in Marshall. Below are the main improvements that will be made:
I'm glad Ford is siting the battery plant in Marshall, because that area needs an economic boost. Some of my friends went to Albion College, and they say the town of Albion has been dying for years, and there's speculation that the college itself may close within 5 years because of enrollment declines and mismanagement.
MLive posted a 5-day time lapse video from MDOT of the replacement of the railroad overpass over Jackson St. in Jackson.
Close some Ann Arbor M-14 ramps, build $41M double roundabout, MDOT study recommendsQuoteA new Michigan Department of Transportation study recommends shuttering Ann Arbor M-14 ramps in an area near the Huron River bridge long marred by safety concerns, then later pursing a $41-million reconfiguration involving a dual roundabout system.
The Barton Drive on- and off-ramps to eastbound M-14 should be closed in the short-term with the long-term solution coming through the costly overhaul that would place a roundabout on Whitmore Lake Road and two on either side of the highway in a "dog bone" formation, the study advises. Those options, chosen from a menu of potential changes at the Barton Drive interchange marked by a history of crashes, are now open for public feedback. As of Wednesday, Aug. 23, people can visit m14-bartonpel.com to participate. The comment period is open through Friday, Sept. 8. The MDOT planning and environmental linkages study was commissioned after Ann Arbor leaders asked the agency to look at ways to boost safety and prevent truck crashes on the Huron River bridge, following the 2019 death of a trucker and a string of incidents including a diesel spill into the river.
But now that it's complete, the study is already generating pushback.
The most vocal opposition is coming from Barton Hills Village, an upscale hamlet of about 140 homes on the north side of the river, with an entrance directly across from the Barton Drive interchange.
Access to the ramps is "pivotal" for Barton Hills, said village Treasurer Carla Smith, a member of the community's board of trustees who has also served on a MDOT advisory group around safety on the section of highway.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/08/close-some-ann-arbor-m-14-ramps-build-41m-double-roundabout-mdot-study-recommends.html
Quote from: afguy on August 24, 2023, 03:16:48 PM
Close some Ann Arbor M-14 ramps, build $41M double roundabout, MDOT study recommends
QuoteA new Michigan Department of Transportation study recommends shuttering Ann Arbor M-14 ramps in an area near the Huron River bridge long marred by safety concerns, then later pursing a $41-million reconfiguration involving a dual roundabout system.
The Barton Drive on- and off-ramps to eastbound M-14 should be closed in the short-term with the long-term solution coming through the costly overhaul that would place a roundabout on Whitmore Lake Road and two on either side of the highway in a "dog bone" formation, the study advises. Those options, chosen from a menu of potential changes at the Barton Drive interchange marked by a history of crashes, are now open for public feedback. As of Wednesday, Aug. 23, people can visit m14-bartonpel.com to participate. The comment period is open through Friday, Sept. 8. The MDOT planning and environmental linkages study was commissioned after Ann Arbor leaders asked the agency to look at ways to boost safety and prevent truck crashes on the Huron River bridge, following the 2019 death of a trucker and a string of incidents including a diesel spill into the river.
But now that it's complete, the study is already generating pushback.
The most vocal opposition is coming from Barton Hills Village, an upscale hamlet of about 140 homes on the north side of the river, with an entrance directly across from the Barton Drive interchange.
Access to the ramps is "pivotal" for Barton Hills, said village Treasurer Carla Smith, a member of the community's board of trustees who has also served on a MDOT advisory group around safety on the section of highway.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/08/close-some-ann-arbor-m-14-ramps-build-41m-double-roundabout-mdot-study-recommends.html
Ugh. Having lived near this interchange, this re-do definitely needs to happen, but I don't agree with closing the interchange before we can rebuild it. It's not *that* hard to use safely.
I'm curious to learn more about the U.S. 131 project. I'm wondering why MDOT is only adding lanes southbound between Post Drive and I-96 and not on the northbound side.
More lanes on U.S. 131, bridge repairs: MDOT reveals proposed projects in 5-year plan(https://www.mlive.com/resizer/y2ebSikjLbisCxi1jzcmx-OGtJc=/800x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/UNKNXZHOABD6NMOPIIWKY2L7ZI.jpg)
QuoteAmong the many projects planned for Kent County are bridge replacements and repairs, rehabilitating numerous roads, and other road maintenance.
One notable proposed project on the horizon is the transformation of the Fruit Ridge Avenue bridge over I-96 in Walker.
The bridge is going to be torn down and rebuilt. It will be upgraded from two lanes to five lanes to help with the increase of traffic in the area over the years. Construction is expected to start in 2024 and wrap up in 2026, according to the draft.Elsewhere, transportation officials want to do major widening on about three miles of M-37 from 92nd Street to 76th Street.
The project is expected to start the bidding process in 2024 with construction happening in a two-year phase from 2025-26. The draft does not include how much the road will be widened.
Another major project — planned much further down the road — is to add lanes to roughly six miles of southbound U.S. 131 near 6 Mile Road. There are few details surrounding this project, however, construction isn't planned until 2027.
https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2023/08/more-lanes-on-us-131-bridge-repairs-mdot-reveals-proposed-projects-in-5-year-plan.html
Why does Interstate 96 just west of Exit 26 have such a wide gap in the median? Surely it could have been constructed with a similar median width as both west of the eastbound rest area and east of Fruit Ridge Ave. NW?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 30, 2023, 06:31:59 PM
Why does Interstate 96 just west of Exit 26 have such a wide gap in the median? Surely it could have been constructed with a similar median width as both west of the eastbound rest area and east of Fruit Ridge Ave. NW?
It might have to do with the creek that snakes through there otherwise they'd have to build more than one bridge. That's my guess on it.
The new M-30 southerly extension from M-20/Isabella Rd west of Midland to M-46/Gratiot Rd—Monroe Rd west of Merrill is now (mostly) signed in the field. An MDOT contact said the Midland Co portion would likely be signed in August, but the "Saginaw Co" portion (technically along the Saginaw/Gratiot Co line, but formerly under the juridiction of Saginaw Co) would likely wait until some necessary "improvements" were completed. Well, they've signed it all the way to M-46 anyway, but yesterday, there were plenty of survey stakes along the highway between M-46 and the Midland Co line, so it's clear something is imminent for that stretch. There are full directional route marker assemblies at the M-46 & M-30 jct as well as the M-20 & M-30 jct, except nothing for northbound M-30 at M-20 yet for some reason. There are about a half dozen M-30 reassurance markers each way between M-46 and M-20.
(https://www.michiganhighways.org/photos/m-30_extension/M-30ext_2023-09-02_01.jpg)
Eastbound M-46/Monroe Rd approaching M-30/Merdian Rd.
(https://www.michiganhighways.org/photos/m-30_extension/M-30ext_2023-09-02_02.jpg)
Westbound M-46/Gratiot Rd approaching M-30/Meridian Rd.
(https://www.michiganhighways.org/photos/m-30_extension/M-30ext_2023-09-02_03.jpg)
First northbound M-30 reassurance marker north of M-46. You can also see the survey stakes alongside the highway in this shot, too.
(https://www.michiganhighways.org/photos/m-30_extension/M-30ext_2023-09-02_04.jpg)
Westbound M-20/Isabella Rd approaching M-30/Meridian Rd.
(https://www.michiganhighways.org/photos/m-30_extension/M-30ext_2023-09-02_05.jpg)
Southbound M-30/Meridian Rd approaching M-20/Isabella Rd. You can see how the existing wooden signpost was reused here for the newly expanded route marker assembly.
I've also updated all of the relavant portions of the M-30 Route Listing (https://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-030.html) on the Michigan Highways (https://www.michiganhighways.org) website.
The M-30 route map (https://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/M-030.html) is now technically 100% accurate, too! :D
^ So no BEGIN tabs on M-46 like there used to be on M-20.
(https://i.imgur.com/S2SMGXM.jpg)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 03, 2023, 09:45:56 PM
^ So no BEGIN tabs on M-46 like there used to be on M-20.
Well, Photo Nos.1 & 2 show the current assemblies at that location and, alas, the rather unique "BEGIN" treatment didn't transfer from the M-20 terminus down to the new M-46 terminus. :-/ But, OTOH, you can see MDOT kept the M-20-using-FHWA-C-while-M-30-uses-FHWA-D situation on the route markers at that intersection. I'm curious to know why you can fit "30" on using FHWA-B but you CANNOT fit "20" on with it? Both have zeros and both have a first digit that are essentially the same width. Curious...
just got back from a Trip to Monroe it was a cluster going into Mi what are they doing to the 75 north side ?
If they're going to lay new asphalt on M-30 this season, they're going to have to move quickly. It doesn't look like it'll need a ground up rebuild simply to repave to similar standards as that of M-30 north of M-20.
North into Midland County it actually looks like it's in decent shape and will be fine as is for a while.
SM-G991U
Quote from: bessertc on September 03, 2023, 10:22:01 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 03, 2023, 09:45:56 PM
^ So no BEGIN tabs on M-46 like there used to be on M-20.
Well, Photo Nos.1 & 2 show the current assemblies at that location and, alas, the rather unique "BEGIN" treatment didn't transfer from the M-20 terminus down to the new M-46 terminus. :-/ But, OTOH, you can see MDOT kept the M-20-using-FHWA-C-while-M-30-uses-FHWA-D situation on the route markers at that intersection. I'm curious to know why you can fit "30" on using FHWA-B but you CANNOT fit "20" on with it? Both have zeros and both have a first digit that are essentially the same width. Curious...
I wondered why the marker for M-22 specifically calls for Series C, while the other two-digit numbers are done in Series D. I think it's because of the digits 0 through 9, only the 2 has a full width at the bottom of the character.
They use a begin sign for M-84 at it's southern terminus at M-58.
Quote from: bessertc on September 03, 2023, 10:22:01 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 03, 2023, 09:45:56 PM
^ So no BEGIN tabs on M-46 like there used to be on M-20.
Well, Photo Nos.1 & 2 show the current assemblies at that location and, alas, the rather unique "BEGIN" treatment didn't transfer from the M-20 terminus down to the new M-46 terminus. :-/ But, OTOH, you can see MDOT kept the M-20-using-FHWA-C-while-M-30-uses-FHWA-D situation on the route markers at that intersection. I'm curious to know why you can fit "30" on using FHWA-B but you CANNOT fit "20" on with it? Both have zeros and both have a first digit that are essentially the same width. Curious...
At the same exact size, proportion, and position, a "20" in size D would probably result in the bottom left corner of the '2' going off the edge of the diamond.
But that said, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of size-D M-20 signs over here on the west side of the state.
Pretty sure these are series D.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53087876144_c574afc5cb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oTcf2o)
MI-020-US31ER (https://flic.kr/p/2oTcf2o) by Paul Across America (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4782/40699852611_8b52cab424_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/251vodK)
MI-020-US131NS (https://flic.kr/p/251vodK) by Paul Across America (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
I struggle to think of a reason why MDOT can't use Series D for any 2-digit number. (These 20s are cutting it close.) But that's what I tend to see, anyway, besides the occasional Series C oddball.
Quote from: bessertc on September 03, 2023, 10:22:01 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 03, 2023, 09:45:56 PM
^ So no BEGIN tabs on M-46 like there used to be on M-20.
Well, Photo Nos.1 & 2 show the current assemblies at that location and, alas, the rather unique "BEGIN" treatment didn't transfer from the M-20 terminus down to the new M-46 terminus. :-/ But, OTOH, you can see MDOT kept the M-20-using-FHWA-C-while-M-30-uses-FHWA-D situation on the route markers at that intersection. I'm curious to know why you can fit "30" on using FHWA-B but you CANNOT fit "20" on with it? Both have zeros and both have a first digit that are essentially the same width. Curious...
I'm going to guess that MDOT's sign shop (or their supplier) whipped off a batch of the Series C markers some time ago, and just pulled some out of inventory when it came time to sign the new routing. It's not like they needed a large number of them - clearly not enough to make a full batch.
Obviously, with the number of M-30 markers needed, that probably merited MDOT ordering up a full batch, which was dutifully done to Series B.
Totally a guess. I can't pretend to know how MDOT's signage operations work, but it's a plausible explanation.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 04, 2023, 03:08:49 AM
If they're going to lay new asphalt on M-30 this season, they're going to have to move quickly. It doesn't look like it'll need a ground up rebuild simply to repave to similar standards as that of M-30 north of M-20.
North into Midland County it actually looks like it's in decent shape and will be fine as is for a while.
While I wasn't around in 1962 when M-30 south of US-10 was handed back to county control, I would
assume the Midland and Saginaw Co segments were of similar construction and in a similar condition. Both segments feature the typical "state highway"-type shoulders left over from when this was a trunkline prior to 1962, but Midland Co added 3-foot paved shoulders to the overall 7—8-foot shoulder. According to the Saginaw Co Road Commission, Meridian Rd between M-40 and South County Line Rd/Midland—Gratiot County Line Rd was an "All-Season Road" under their control, assumedly due to the "trunkline-quality" of the construction from c.1953—54. The best I can come up with is the 1953—54 paving of Meridian Rd may still be underneath the present-day surface of M-30 in Saginaw Co, while the late-1961 paving may still form the base of today's M-30 in Midland Co, resulting in a better surface in Midland versus Saginaw.
I went down Meridan Road from M-20 to M-46 yesterday and only noticed a few signs. One just south of M-20, one just south of Freeland Road and one just south of Tittabawassee/Redstone Road. Outside of that I didn't see any signs on Meridan itself or maybe I missed a few.
Quote from: doglover44 on September 03, 2023, 10:33:59 PM
just got back from a Trip to Monroe it was a cluster going into Mi what are they doing to the 75 north side ?
Reconstruction between Erie Road and South Otter Creek Road. Northbound side this year, southbound side next year. It's phase three of the five-phase reconstruction between the OH/MI state line and I-275.
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 05, 2023, 07:57:49 AM
I went down Meridan Road from M-20 to M-46 yesterday and only noticed a few signs. One just south of M-20, one just south of Freeland Road and one just south of Tittabawassee/Redstone Road. Outside of that I didn't see any signs on Meridan itself or maybe I missed a few.
Here are the new M-30
reassurance markers I saw (and got photos of many of them) on Saturday:
- M-46/Monroe Rd—Gratiot Rd — nbd only
- Tittabawassee Rd — both directions
- Freeland Rd — both directions
- Pine River/Gordonville Rds — both directions
- Chippewa River Rd — both directions
- M-20/Isabella Rd — sbd (new); nbd (existing)
Yes, there could be more reassurance markers, but maybe Bay Region only puts them after County Primary Roads (which all of the above are). I think some different MDOT Regions have slightly different reassurance route marker policies.
Google Maps has been updated to include M-30's re-extension to M-46. At least they didn't drag their feet on that!
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 05, 2023, 03:25:29 PM
Google Maps has been updated to include M-30's re-extension to M-46. At least they didn't drag their feet on that!
Yeah, I saw Google had updated that back in mid-July. That's when I asked a contact at MDOT what the plan was for actually signing the new extension. She's the one that said the Midland section would be done by mid-August and the Saginaw portion would wait until the "scheduled maintenance project" was completed "hopefully this fall." Obviously, at least some of the signs were placed south of the Midland Co line anyway.
MDOT has published their final version of the PEL study for I-475 in Flint. Some of the highlights of the study includes the following:
- The overall cost will more than double from $300 million to $700 million, due to the additional improvements along the corridor.
- The preferred alternative is the reduced footprint with the urban retaining walls
- A potential freeway cap may be added
Here's a link to the final PEL report: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/Studies/Planning-and-Environmental-Linkages-Studies/I-475/PEL-Report.pdf?rev=63f4edd73d58419dac97ebce8a571b02&hash=1E4CF29F1F4A8A0F623DFF64F9717243
I wonder if Michigan will ever reopen the welcome center coming in on US 31 if Indiana upgrades it to a major corridor.
Quote from: dvferyance on September 24, 2023, 06:22:36 PM
I wonder if Michigan will ever reopen the welcome center coming in on US 31 if Indiana upgrades it to a major corridor.
It's kind of odd that MDOT can staff a Welcome Center on lightly-trafficked corridors like US-2, US-141, or US-41, but US-31 and US-131 are neglected. Then again, MDOT has spent the last 20+ years closing rest areas, so it probably shouldn't be surprising.
The real estate is still there for the Welcome Center. Whenever the powers that be decide to make it happen, they can do it. But as long as US-31 in Berrien County was an unfinished red-headed stepchild, building and staffing a rest area was apparently very low priority.
I mean, there's *FOUR* freaking rest areas on US-31 between Muskegon and Ludington. Meanwhile, one doesn't encounter a rest area on northbound US-31 until north of South Haven, about an hour north of the Indiana state line.
Speaking of rest areas, there's some interesting metadata on this Rest Area map from MDOT:
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/travel/tourists/rest-areas-and-welcome-centers (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/travel/tourists/rest-areas-and-welcome-centers)
There appears to be a hierarchy of route classification that I'm not familiar with on the map. It appears to depict certain routes as higher classification than others, but it doesn't directly follow route numbers or other obvious classification.
For example, while all the interstates are obviously present and accounted for, and routes like M-28, US-2, US-127 and US-31 have this classification in their entirety, US-23 is shown as a "lesser" route north of Standish. US-131 is shown as "lesser" north of Kalkaska, and only the section of US-12 between Coldwater and Ypsilanti is given this "higher" status. M-24 between I-75 and I-69 qualifies. US-223, oddly, does not (despite arguably being more important regionally than US-127 south of US-223).
It also doesn't line up with either the National Functional Classification or the National Highway System classification. It does roughly appear to be the most "important" routes. It's just unclear to me how they were determined, or what that may signify in terms of future highway investment/expansion.
Really unless you are going to one of the cities or places along the route like US-23 north of Standish, US-23 can be bypassed if you aren't going to Au Gres, Tawas, Harrisville, Oscoda or Alpena by taking M-65 which part of is the old US-23 route before US-23 was moved to run along the lakeshore. In the summer it's pretty consistent with people coming and going in northern Michigan but when winter comes there are hardly any people around. I've been up north in the winter before and loved the peace and quiet but of course the snow is a pain.
US-31 is pretty much the same way though it goes through the cities but doesn't have a real good bypass route to it like M-65 is to US-23. US-131 and M-231 help. But the travel seasons up there are seasonal, summer weekends expect there to be people around, winter weekends not so much.
I drove by what I think will be a new roundabout at the intersection of US 127 and US 223 last night.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 25, 2023, 09:24:08 PM
I drove by what I think will be a new roundabout at the intersection of US 127 and US 223 last night.
Yes, it will be a roundabout.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/04/06/roundabout-and-resurfacing-project-in-lenawee-county-begins-monday
The current design at US-223 and US-127 goes back to when US-127 originally went to Toledo instead of US-223 before US-127 got re-routed onto it's current route. I don't mind these roundabouts but people complain about them a lot. In fact during the widening and resurfacing of I-75 in Saginaw County between 2020 and 2022 two roundabouts were constructed at the M-46 interchange. Some people in Saginaw were complaining about it and I mentioned that the one at M-81 and I-75 has been there since 2006 and everyone seems to use it just fine, one of the comments I got back was from someone that has lived in Saginaw for at least that long and told me that they had never used that interchange before. I told them I find that hard to believe because it's a major interchange with two truck stops and your telling me you never went to Reese or Caro or into the thumb ever?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 26, 2023, 10:38:31 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 25, 2023, 09:24:08 PM
I drove by what I think will be a new roundabout at the intersection of US 127 and US 223 last night.
Yes, it will be a roundabout.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/04/06/roundabout-and-resurfacing-project-in-lenawee-county-begins-monday
If the intersection qualified for an all-way stop, then I might have also opted for a roundabout instead, as a design/traffic engineer.
How common are roundabouts in Michigan? I don't have to tell you how common they are here in Wisconsin.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 29, 2023, 11:54:27 AM
How common are roundabouts in Michigan? I don't have to tell you how common they are here in Wisconsin.
Increasingly so, though not yet at Wisconsin's level.
There's a number of them on US-41/M-28 between Negaunee and Marquette, and a number of freeway interchanges are being rebuilt with them (they can get away with a narrower over- or underpass using them). They're also cropping up in places like the US-127/223 intersection, outside Traverse City on M-72 and US-131, and north of Grand Rapids at M-37 and M-46.
M-99 at M-50 south of Eaton Rapids would be a prime candidate - it's an old-style "fork in the road" intersection that got partially converted into a scrunched-up T intersection. Currently, NBD M-99 takes a sharp right turn to intersect M-50, while SBD traffic to M-99 takes the right fork without stopping. I don't have recent crash statistics there, but it was notoriously bad for NBD M-99 drivers running the stop sign.
They are popping up a lot more often now with new construction.
In Saginaw County both the intersection of Swan Creek Road and Merrill Road as well as Swan Creek Road and Hemlock Road are all way stop's now. Swan Creek Road and M-52 has been a nightly all way stop for years, during the day it operates as a normal traffic light.
Construction on the Mackinac Bridge has it all messed up up there. It took about 15 minutes to cross that thing today.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 03, 2023, 08:50:53 PM
Construction on the Mackinac Bridge has it all messed up up there. It took about 15 minutes to cross that thing today.
The construction is needed. Those approaches were horrible when I drove over it a few weeks ago.
The legislature approved carpool lanes on I-75 in Oakland County. Awaiting the gov's signature. This was a condition of some federal funding to expand from 3 to 4 lanes in each direction.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/03/house-gives-final-ok-to-bills-creating-carpool-lanes-on-i-75/70991826007/
I noticed yesterday that in Burlington, there is no signage along M-60 marking the intersection with M-311. If I hadn't been using GPS navigation, I'd have missed it.
Quote from: Rothman on October 03, 2023, 11:12:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 03, 2023, 08:50:53 PM
Construction on the Mackinac Bridge has it all messed up up there. It took about 15 minutes to cross that thing today.
The construction is needed. Those approaches were horrible when I drove over it a few weeks ago.
I drive over the bridge probably 30 times a year and never noticed anything wrong with the approaches.
Quote from: GaryV on October 04, 2023, 07:06:04 AM
The legislature approved carpool lanes on I-75 in Oakland County. Awaiting the gov's signature. This was a condition of some federal funding to expand from 3 to 4 lanes in each direction.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/03/house-gives-final-ok-to-bills-creating-carpool-lanes-on-i-75/70991826007/
Yep as usual instead of widening it like it should be let's put in some lanes that only select cars can use or in the case of the flex lanes lets put in a lane that can only be used at certain times of the day. That's Michigan trying to cut corners again as usual. Having I-75 at 6 lanes in Oakland County is severely under capacity it should be 8-10 lanes. It really seems that Michigan's freeways lack an extra lane when it's needed and then they throw this part time crap at us.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
I noticed yesterday that in Burlington, there is no signage along M-60 marking the intersection with M-311. If I hadn't been using GPS navigation, I'd have missed it.
I just notified MDOT on that one.
Yesterday, the popular YouTube channel, FSC Trucking, uploaded a video showcasing a crossing of the Mackinac Bridge. For those unfamiliar with the channel, it follows the life of trucker Steve Feszchak and his 1984 cabover truck, named Orwell. The video is well done and well worth a watch.
Quote from: ITB on October 04, 2023, 02:37:25 PM
Yesterday, the popular YouTube channel, FSC Trucking, uploaded a video showcasing a crossing of the Mackinac Bridge. For those unfamiliar with the channel, it follows the life of trucker Steve Feszchak and his 1984 cabover truck, named Orwell. The video is well done and well worth a watch.
I stopped listening after he mispronounced Mackinac.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 03:06:01 PM
I stopped listening after he mispronounced Mackinac.
Well, let's give him a break, as he's from Wisconsin. And, I myself, have been wondering about the correct pronunciation. Is it MAK-e-nac or MAK-e-naw?
Quote from: ITB on October 04, 2023, 03:31:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 03:06:01 PM
I stopped listening after he mispronounced Mackinac.
Well, let's give him a break, as he's from Wisconsin. And, I myself, have been wondering about the correct pronunciation. Is it MAK-e-nac or MAK-e-naw?
It's Mack-in-aw.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: ITB on October 04, 2023, 03:31:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 03:06:01 PM
I stopped listening after he mispronounced Mackinac.
Well, let's give him a break, as he's from Wisconsin. And, I myself, have been wondering about the correct pronunciation. Is it MAK-e-nac or MAK-e-naw?
It's Mack-in-aw.
Gotcha. Thanks! Beautiful scenery in upper Michigan. And the bridge is spectacular, but crossing it is not for those who might be a bit queasy.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 11:22:19 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 03, 2023, 11:12:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 03, 2023, 08:50:53 PM
Construction on the Mackinac Bridge has it all messed up up there. It took about 15 minutes to cross that thing today.
The construction is needed. Those approaches were horrible when I drove over it a few weeks ago.
I drive over the bridge probably 30 times a year and never noticed anything wrong with the approaches.
That's...strange. Washboards.
Then again, maybe MI has bad roads...
Quote from: ITB on October 04, 2023, 04:04:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: ITB on October 04, 2023, 03:31:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 03:06:01 PM
I stopped listening after he mispronounced Mackinac.
Well, let's give him a break, as he's from Wisconsin. And, I myself, have been wondering about the correct pronunciation. Is it MAK-e-nac or MAK-e-naw?
It's Mack-in-aw.
Gotcha. Thanks! Beautiful scenery in upper Michigan. And the bridge is spectacular, but crossing it is not for those who might be a bit queasy.
You're welcome. Actually the way it goes up there is that places on the U.P. side are spelled Mackinac and places on the L.P. side are spelled Mackinaw but they are pronounced the same way. I see people spell it Mackinaw for the island and bridge a lot even though both are spelled Mackinac. The county I'm sure people would spell Mackinaw but it's Mackinac.
The area around Hessel, Cedarville and pretty much anywhere in the Les Cheneaux (pronounced lay shen oh) Islands area is my favorite part of Michigan. I have a cabin up there that I built myself and love to go up there to go fishing and to hang out.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
I noticed yesterday that in Burlington, there is no signage along M-60 marking the intersection with M-311. If I hadn't been using GPS navigation, I'd have missed it.
MDOT has received notice about this and replied to me already. They have shared my information with their maintenance coordinator for investigation and appropriate action.
I drove up to Copper Harbor today. I don't really understand why the Superior circe tour spur follows US 41 instead of M-26, since 26 is actually right on the shoreline,
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 04, 2023, 10:20:47 PM
I drove up to Copper Harbor today. I don't really understand why the Superior circe tour spur follows US 41 instead of M-26, since 26 is actually right on the shoreline,
Me neither. Easy enough to make a loop of it.
A sad discovery I also made today: the ancient US 41/M-203 sign pair in Calumet have been removed (sometime after April 2021, my last visit).
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/385067508_2592478150916218_1867638721231099475_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=49d041&_nc_ohc=taN2hJ245I4AX9eCweZ&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfB92FVPU1kvPha3WJ-l4ol4n8DPzMa7lY1AKe2U1tz9Kw&oe=6523AFED)
After looking at every direction of the M-60/M-311 intersection in Burlington there are signs on M-311 approaching M-60 that tell you that M-60 goes both ways and that M-311 ends there. However it is correct that there is no signage at all regarding M-311 on M-60. MDOT now knows about it.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 08:47:45 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
I noticed yesterday that in Burlington, there is no signage along M-60 marking the intersection with M-311. If I hadn't been using GPS navigation, I'd have missed it.
MDOT has received notice about this and replied to me already. They have shared my information with their maintenance coordinator for investigation and appropriate action.
It's been like this for quite some time. I don't know if there was ever signage on M-60 for M-311.
MDOT was also quite slow to post M-311 on the BGS at the I-94 interchange. It didn't make it onto a BGS until sometime in 2013 or 2014.
Hell, M-311 itself didn't have reassurance markers posted until 2009; it had been in existence since 1998 (per michiganhighways.org)
M-311 was designated as part of the "Rationalization Process" of 1998: https://michiganhighways.org/indepth/rationalization.html. A list of the jurisdiction transfers between 1998 and 2002 is located at this page: https://michiganhighways.org/indepth/juristrans_1998-2002.html.
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 05, 2023, 02:30:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 08:47:45 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
I noticed yesterday that in Burlington, there is no signage along M-60 marking the intersection with M-311. If I hadn't been using GPS navigation, I'd have missed it.
MDOT has received notice about this and replied to me already. They have shared my information with their maintenance coordinator for investigation and appropriate action.
It's been like this for quite some time. I don't know if there was ever signage on M-60 for M-311.
MDOT was also quite slow to post M-311 on the BGS at the I-94 interchange. It didn't make it onto a BGS until sometime in 2013 or 2014.
Hell, M-311 itself didn't have reassurance markers posted until 2009; it had been in existence since 1998 (per michiganhighways.org)
Well there might be now that I informed MDOT about it. M-311 was an unsigned highway before 2009 so that is why there weren't any signs before that year. It was one of the highways created as part of John Engler's Rationalization process. Personally I don't even know why it's a state highway in the first place as 11 Mile Road could have remained a county road.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 04, 2023, 10:20:47 PM
I drove up to Copper Harbor today. I don't really understand why the Superior circe tour spur follows US 41 instead of M-26, since 26 is actually right on the shoreline,
Is there any snow up there yet?
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 05, 2023, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 05, 2023, 02:30:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 08:47:45 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
I noticed yesterday that in Burlington, there is no signage along M-60 marking the intersection with M-311. If I hadn't been using GPS navigation, I'd have missed it.
MDOT has received notice about this and replied to me already. They have shared my information with their maintenance coordinator for investigation and appropriate action.
It's been like this for quite some time. I don't know if there was ever signage on M-60 for M-311.
MDOT was also quite slow to post M-311 on the BGS at the I-94 interchange. It didn't make it onto a BGS until sometime in 2013 or 2014.
Hell, M-311 itself didn't have reassurance markers posted until 2009; it had been in existence since 1998 (per michiganhighways.org)
Well there might be now that I informed MDOT about it. M-311 was an unsigned highway before 2009 so that is why there weren't any signs before that year. It was one of the highways created as part of John Engler's Rationalization process. Personally I don't even know why it's a state highway in the first place as 11 Mile Road could have remained a county road.
Calhoun County roads are complete and utter crap, even by Michigan standards. I don't know what kind of black hole their funding goes into, but they have a bunch of roads that would be better off gravel. Some of them basically are, since they've deteriorated so much.
They took the opportunity of the "Rationalization" during Engler's time in office to get MDOT to take over maintenance on a bunch of roads. That got a bunch of roads off their books.
SM-G991U
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 06, 2023, 02:10:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 05, 2023, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 05, 2023, 02:30:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 04, 2023, 08:47:45 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
I noticed yesterday that in Burlington, there is no signage along M-60 marking the intersection with M-311. If I hadn't been using GPS navigation, I'd have missed it.
MDOT has received notice about this and replied to me already. They have shared my information with their maintenance coordinator for investigation and appropriate action.
It's been like this for quite some time. I don't know if there was ever signage on M-60 for M-311.
MDOT was also quite slow to post M-311 on the BGS at the I-94 interchange. It didn't make it onto a BGS until sometime in 2013 or 2014.
Hell, M-311 itself didn't have reassurance markers posted until 2009; it had been in existence since 1998 (per michiganhighways.org)
Well there might be now that I informed MDOT about it. M-311 was an unsigned highway before 2009 so that is why there weren't any signs before that year. It was one of the highways created as part of John Engler's Rationalization process. Personally I don't even know why it's a state highway in the first place as 11 Mile Road could have remained a county road.
Calhoun County roads are complete and utter crap, even by Michigan standards. I don't know what kind of black hole their funding goes into, but they have a bunch of roads that would be better off gravel. Some of them basically are, since they've deteriorated so much.
They took the opportunity of the "Rationalization" during Engler's time in office to get MDOT to take over maintenance on a bunch of roads. That got a bunch of roads off their books.
SM-G991U
Calhoun County pretty much sucks anyway. Battle Creek and Albion sure do. Yeah they got MDOT to take 11 Mile over so they didn't have to deal with it that's pretty much the only reason M-311 even exists.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6mQZc2DzRfBwnuWN9
Why is there this stub on the Michigan side of the Ambassador Bridge?
I've been told that the stubborn owner of the bridge has no plans to add another parallel span to it at all hence the Geordie Howe Bridge need. So why is it built?
Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2023, 12:33:15 PM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6mQZc2DzRfBwnuWN9
Why is there this stub on the Michigan side of the Ambassador Bridge?
I've been told that the stubborn owner of the bridge has no plans to add another parallel span to it at all hence the Geordie Howe Bridge need. So why is it built?
It was intended to be the starting point for a second span. The problem with where the bridge is located is that on the Windsor side you are thrown right into overcrowded streets in Windsor and have to stop at traffic lights. When the Gordie Howe Bridge opens you'll be able to get right onto the 401 freeway. The owner of the bridge died about 3 years ago, I believe his kids are in control of his company now. Manuel Moroun was not well liked in Detroit at all.
I also see that you can't get directly onto I-75 SB from the Ambassador Bridge either. Once you pay the toll you're forced onto either I-75 NB or I-96 WB or a side street to the Welcome Center.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2023, 12:50:01 PM
I also see that you can't get directly onto I-75 SB from the Ambassador Bridge either. Once you pay the toll you're forced onto either I-75 NB or I-96 WB or a side street to the Welcome Center.
Stay to the left after clearing customs, that's the SB I-75 ramp. It's the ramp that does a circle basically turning around.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 09, 2023, 12:46:59 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2023, 12:33:15 PM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6mQZc2DzRfBwnuWN9
Why is there this stub on the Michigan side of the Ambassador Bridge?
I've been told that the stubborn owner of the bridge has no plans to add another parallel span to it at all hence the Geordie Howe Bridge need. So why is it built?
It was intended to be the starting point for a second span. The problem with where the bridge is located is that on the Windsor side you are thrown right into overcrowded streets in Windsor and have to stop at traffic lights. When the Gordie Howe Bridge opens you'll be able to get right onto the 401 freeway. The owner of the bridge died about 3 years ago, I believe his kids are in control of his company now. Manuel Moroun was not well liked in Detroit at all.
Also, Canada had a condition that they had to tear down the Ambassador once the replacement was constructed and open to traffic. Mouron wanted it to be a twin span, and he wasn't going to dump the money in a 2nd span if he couldn't use it as he intended.
As little as they liked him in Detroit, they liked him even less in Canada.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 09, 2023, 12:58:00 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2023, 12:50:01 PM
I also see that you can't get directly onto I-75 SB from the Ambassador Bridge either. Once you pay the toll you're forced onto either I-75 NB or I-96 WB or a side street to the Welcome Center.
Stay to the left after clearing customs, that's the SB I-75 ramp. It's the ramp that does a circle basically turning around.
Although truckers cannot get directly onto nbd I-75 after passing through their separate customs inspection station. Their only options are I-96 or sbd I-75.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/u3VrCCdZM7DWg4jS7
Some notes from a recent weekend trip to Michigan:
- 55 mph speed limits in the U.P. are mind-numbingly slow. The section of 65 mph limits on US-2 make the drive less tedious.
- A friend posted a picture from Sunday afternoon of at least 3 miles of backed-up EBD traffic on US-2 outside St. Ignace, waiting to get across the Mackinac Bridge. Not sure what was the holdup there; in theory they should be able to have 5 toll collection agents handling SBD traffic. The bridge itself was not backed up or closed or anything like that. The interchange construction at US-2 and I-75 shouldn't have been a factor, as even squeezed down to one lane w/ I-75 it shouldn't have hampered the toll booth's ability to move cars through. It's just weird.
- US-127 south of M-57 is looking good from the recent repaving, bridge work, and installation of J-turns in the median. There is no longer any cross traffic; it's now either right-turning traffic or traffic turning at the crossover points. Ditto the repaving and safety enhancement work on US-127 between Mason and Leslie.
The J-turn thing is becoming more common in Michigan, instead of the traditional Michigan left that allows cross traffic or right-turns. US-2/41 between Escanaba and Rapid River has them (aside from the two signalized intersections in Gladstone). Bus I-69 (Saginaw Rd) on the divided section between East Lansing and I-69 in Haslett has them. Recent work on M-99 between Lansing and Eaton Rapids converted several crossroads into J-turns (but did not modify existing two-way crossovers between the intersections). Presumably MDOT will also convert the 4-lane divided section of US-127 north of M-57 when that section gets fresh pavement.
- We're within a week or so of I-94 construction in Kalamazoo wrapping up. All 6 lanes are open west of Sprinkle Rd, and the Portage Rd exit is simply missing signage (overhead and otherwise). That will be worthwhile relief.
- US-131 between Schoolcraft and Three Rivers is also getting a repave and J-turn treatment. It will probably be done by the onset of winter. Unclear if at that point they'll elect to bump the speed limit to 65; my guess is that with all the driveways in Moore Park and the relatively short distances involved that they'll just leave it at 55. But they may surprise us.
MDOT has launched a study of the 8 Mile/I-75 Interchange on the Detroit/Hazel Park border. If I were a betting man, I have a feeling MDOT will tear down the current 8 Mile bridge over I-75 and rebuild it as a traditional interchange.
QuoteMDOT is undertaking a feasibility study, also known as an early preliminary engineering (EPE) study, for the I-75/M-102 (8 Mile Road) interchange in the cities of Detroit and Hazel Park. The existing interchange contains aging infrastructure built in 1969. Since it was originally built, traffic patterns and land uses have changed. MDOT is evaluating the interchange to improve the transportation system, connectivity, and aesthetics; reduce long-term maintenance costs; and complement the I-75 modernization project north of 8 Mile Road.
The outcome of this study will enable MDOT, in partnership with the local communities, to enhance safety, improve design and mobility, and plan for future transportation needs and changing travel behaviors through this unique area.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/feasibility-studies/i-75-m-102-study
Quote from: afguy on October 09, 2023, 08:50:29 PM
MDOT has launched a study of the 8 Mile/I-75 Interchange on the Detroit/Hazel Park border. If I were a betting man, I have a feeling MDOT will tear down the current 8 Mile bridge over I-75 and rebuild it as a traditional interchange.
QuoteMDOT is undertaking a feasibility study, also known as an early preliminary engineering (EPE) study, for the I-75/M-102 (8 Mile Road) interchange in the cities of Detroit and Hazel Park. The existing interchange contains aging infrastructure built in 1969. Since it was originally built, traffic patterns and land uses have changed. MDOT is evaluating the interchange to improve the transportation system, connectivity, and aesthetics; reduce long-term maintenance costs; and complement the I-75 modernization project north of 8 Mile Road.
The outcome of this study will enable MDOT, in partnership with the local communities, to enhance safety, improve design and mobility, and plan for future transportation needs and changing travel behaviors through this unique area.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/feasibility-studies/i-75-m-102-study
Also, MDOT could add a 4th lane each way through the interchange on I-75...
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 09, 2023, 06:01:37 PM
Some notes from a recent weekend trip to Michigan:
- 55 mph speed limits in the U.P. are mind-numbingly slow. The section of 65 mph limits on US-2 make the drive less tedious.
- A friend posted a picture from Sunday afternoon of at least 3 miles of backed-up EBD traffic on US-2 outside St. Ignace, waiting to get across the Mackinac Bridge. Not sure what was the holdup there; in theory they should be able to have 5 toll collection agents handling SBD traffic. The bridge itself was not backed up or closed or anything like that. The interchange construction at US-2 and I-75 shouldn't have been a factor, as even squeezed down to one lane w/ I-75 it shouldn't have hampered the toll booth's ability to move cars through. It's just weird.
- US-127 south of M-57 is looking good from the recent repaving, bridge work, and installation of J-turns in the median. There is no longer any cross traffic; it's now either right-turning traffic or traffic turning at the crossover points. Ditto the repaving and safety enhancement work on US-127 between Mason and Leslie.
The J-turn thing is becoming more common in Michigan, instead of the traditional Michigan left that allows cross traffic or right-turns. US-2/41 between Escanaba and Rapid River has them (aside from the two signalized intersections in Gladstone). Bus I-69 (Saginaw Rd) on the divided section between East Lansing and I-69 in Haslett has them. Recent work on M-99 between Lansing and Eaton Rapids converted several crossroads into J-turns (but did not modify existing two-way crossovers between the intersections). Presumably MDOT will also convert the 4-lane divided section of US-127 north of M-57 when that section gets fresh pavement.
- We're within a week or so of I-94 construction in Kalamazoo wrapping up. All 6 lanes are open west of Sprinkle Rd, and the Portage Rd exit is simply missing signage (overhead and otherwise). That will be worthwhile relief.
- US-131 between Schoolcraft and Three Rivers is also getting a repave and J-turn treatment. It will probably be done by the onset of winter. Unclear if at that point they'll elect to bump the speed limit to 65; my guess is that with all the driveways in Moore Park and the relatively short distances involved that they'll just leave it at 55. But they may surprise us.
The 55 mph in the U.P. are insanely slow I agree. When I was up at my place in Cedarville last week I drove to Sault Ste. Marie and on M-129 I was doing 70-75 mph, there was no traffic and the speed limit was 55 I didn't care though.
The holdup on the Mackinac Bridge is that they are doing construction and have lane closures. I drove across it twice last week and it took me about 15 minutes to get across and traffic came to a stand still, this was on Tuesday afternoon. Also exit 344 has ramp closures.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 09, 2023, 10:34:14 PM
The 55 mph in the U.P. are insanely slow I agree. When I was up at my place in Cedarville last week I drove to Sault Ste. Marie and on M-129 I was doing 70-75 mph, there was no traffic and the speed limit was 55 I didn't care though.
When Michigan increased the 55 mph, all the roads were supposed to get engineering studies to prove 65 was safe. Which is kind of unneeded, since most of them were at 65 mph before Nixon made us all go 55. Still, they had to do some studies to determine where no passing zones were needed for the higher speeds, I can see that.
But M-129? It's straight as an arrow. 70-75 is certainly safe there, just like it is in the Seney Stretch on M-28.
Quote from: GaryV on October 10, 2023, 07:29:56 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 09, 2023, 10:34:14 PM
The 55 mph in the U.P. are insanely slow I agree. When I was up at my place in Cedarville last week I drove to Sault Ste. Marie and on M-129 I was doing 70-75 mph, there was no traffic and the speed limit was 55 I didn't care though.
When Michigan increased the 55 mph, all the roads were supposed to get engineering studies to prove 65 was safe. Which is kind of unneeded, since most of them were at 65 mph before Nixon made us all go 55. Still, they had to do some studies to determine where no passing zones were needed for the higher speeds, I can see that.
But M-129? It's straight as an arrow. 70-75 is certainly safe there, just like it is in the Seney Stretch on M-28.
That's true. I had no problem doing 70-75 on M-129, I did about the same on the Seney Stretch last time I was on that stretch of M-28. I have heard that cops sit in the Seney Stretch at times though so you might have to watch it a little bit. Other than driving through Pickford you can do 75 on M-129 just fine like you said it's straight as an arrow. It's actually Meridian Road on the U.P. side as it continues from the Lower Peninsula.
The only curve is at the eastern terminus of M-28 where M-129 does that S curve but other than that it's straight.
Speaking of Michigan Speed Limits, is I-75 in the UP the only 75 mph freeway in the entire state?
Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Speaking of Michigan Speed Limits, is I-75 in the UP the only 75 mph freeway in the entire state?
I-75 north of Bay City, most (or maybe all) of US-10, parts of I-69, US-131 north of GR. Maybe more.
Quote from: GaryV on October 10, 2023, 10:20:00 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Speaking of Michigan Speed Limits, is I-75 in the UP the only 75 mph freeway in the entire state?
I-75 north of Bay City, most (or maybe all) of US-10, parts of I-69, US-131 north of GR. Maybe more.
Some of US 127 as well.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Speaking of Michigan Speed Limits, is I-75 in the UP the only 75 mph freeway in the entire state?
No. I-75 is 75 mph north of MM 164 except for the areas before, on and after the Mackinac Bridge where it slows down to 60 mph in Mackinaw City, then 45 mph for the bridge, then 60 mph again in St. Ignace before resuming 75 mph. Also I-69 is 75 mph between East Lansing and Swartz Creek and again from the Lapeer/Genesee County line to Port Huron, in between it's 70 mph. Also US-10, US-127 and US-131 are 75 mph.
Quote from: GaryV on October 10, 2023, 10:20:00 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Speaking of Michigan Speed Limits, is I-75 in the UP the only 75 mph freeway in the entire state?
I-75 north of Bay City, most (or maybe all) of US-10, parts of I-69, US-131 north of GR. Maybe more.
US-10 west of Farwell is a two lane road and slows down to 55 mph.
Quote from: GaryV on October 10, 2023, 07:29:56 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 09, 2023, 10:34:14 PM
The 55 mph in the U.P. are insanely slow I agree. When I was up at my place in Cedarville last week I drove to Sault Ste. Marie and on M-129 I was doing 70-75 mph, there was no traffic and the speed limit was 55 I didn't care though.
When Michigan increased the 55 mph, all the roads were supposed to get engineering studies to prove 65 was safe. Which is kind of unneeded, since most of them were at 65 mph before Nixon made us all go 55. Still, they had to do some studies to determine where no passing zones were needed for the higher speeds, I can see that.
But M-129? It's straight as an arrow. 70-75 is certainly safe there, just like it is in the Seney Stretch on M-28.
Full list of roads that saw speed limit increases in 2017/2018:
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Safety/Road-User/Speed-Limits/Speed-Limit-Increases-List.pdf?rev=b37c29cba2b149a6899b19af2aabcd12 (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Safety/Road-User/Speed-Limits/Speed-Limit-Increases-List.pdf?rev=b37c29cba2b149a6899b19af2aabcd12)
The design standards that drove which routes got the increases were not consistent; some routes were selected based on (lack of) traffic; others seem to have been specifically selected based on traffic levels. I would be less frustrated with Michigan if they came up with a rule - say, no 65mph limits on 2-lanes south of Clare, or a requirement for full 10' paved shoulders and rumble strips, or a requirement for fewer than 10 driveways or access points per mile.
Technically, both M-28 and US-45 in Bruce Crossing have a 65 mph speed limit. In "town", with sidewalks right up against a curb and on-street parking! (There's an advisory speed limit of 45 posted on the northern approach on US-45). If that qualifies for a 65 mph speed limit, pretty much anywhere in Michigan qualifies!
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 10, 2023, 10:40:50 AM
Quote from: GaryV on October 10, 2023, 10:20:00 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Speaking of Michigan Speed Limits, is I-75 in the UP the only 75 mph freeway in the entire state?
I-75 north of Bay City, most (or maybe all) of US-10, parts of I-69, US-131 north of GR. Maybe more.
US-10 west of Farwell is a two lane road and slows down to 55 mph.
roadman wanted to know about 75mph freeways
HOV are coming to Michigan particularly I-75:
https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/10/whitmer-signs-bills-to-authorize-carpool-lanes/71122428007/
Quote from: GaryV on October 10, 2023, 09:49:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 10, 2023, 10:40:50 AM
Quote from: GaryV on October 10, 2023, 10:20:00 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Speaking of Michigan Speed Limits, is I-75 in the UP the only 75 mph freeway in the entire state?
I-75 north of Bay City, most (or maybe all) of US-10, parts of I-69, US-131 north of GR. Maybe more.
US-10 west of Farwell is a two lane road and slows down to 55 mph.
roadman wanted to know about 75mph freeways
I gotcha. If you were referring to the freeway part of US-10 then yes the whole thing is 75 mph.
I think if we were giving out awards for straight as an arrow state highways then M-117 would win.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 11, 2023, 01:37:36 PM
HOV are coming to Michigan particularly I-75:
https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/10/whitmer-signs-bills-to-authorize-carpool-lanes/71122428007/
I was surprised when I first read this. I didn't know legislation was needed at all, and then that it passed only now. The I-75 Oakland County reconstruction project started nearly a decade ago, and the HOV lanes during rush hours have been touted since day one. Other than waiting for completion of the whole project, I guess this is the reason the new lanes haven't been opened on the completed sections but instead have been painted out. Maybe the theory was that if opened at first for all traffic full-time, dialing them back to HOV use would be tougher for motorists to swallow.
MDOT will be letting a contract for reconstruction of BL I-75 (Square Lake Road) between M-1 (Woodward Avenue) and the GTW Railroad overpass west of Opdyke Road, a portion of sbd BL-I-75 east of Opdyke Road, and the nbd and sbd Opdyke Road ramps to nbd BL I-75 (wbd Square Lake Road) in Pontiac. The letting is #2311 016, letting date 11/03/2023, item #016.
I mention this because there was discussion back in April in this thread about whether the grade separation at Opdyke Road was still necessary and even maybe a roundabout or two should go there. Also, MDOT at one point was considering removing the ramp from Square Lake Road to the ebd I-75 connector to eliminate weave/merge concerns. The plans show the reconstruction will keep all alignments as they are now. If I'm reading them right, the plans also show all the new construction will be with concrete curb and asphalt pavement instead of the (poor condition) concrete pavement that currently exists. Interesting because when the corresponding portion of nbd BL I-75 east of Opdyke Road was reconstructed several years ago, that was done with concrete pavement.
Google Maps: https://maps.app.goo.gl/cqFdXjBK4Ejx1j697
Hopefully MDOT ignores Ann Arbor...US-23 should have been widened decades ago.
Ann Arbor voices opposition to widening U.S. 23 highwayQuoteIn a resolution approved unanimously Monday night, Oct. 16, City Council called on MDOT to implement a highway design that does not include adding any new lanes or other actions that would increase private vehicle traffic volumes.
The city also wants to make sure MDOT gives close attention to the mobility needs of people walking, biking and riding buses, citing a goal to reduce driving in the city by 50% by 2030 as part of the city's quest to reduce carbon emissions. MDOT announced earlier this year it was launching a major study for the U.S. 23 corridor between M-14 and I-94 with plans to replace bridges and possibly widen the highway, saying it carries about 70,000 vehicles on a typical weekday and there's traffic congestion, including backups at exit ramps. The agency has been reviewing several alternatives to go from two to three lanes in each direction, including flex lanes similar to what exists on U.S. 23 north of Ann Arbor to relieve congestion during peak hours, high-occupancy vehicle lanes to promote carpooling, and other options.
MDOT has indicated it plans to finalize a design in 2025 for construction in 2026 through 2028.
The project represents "a generational $250 million investment" in rebuilding 1960s-era stretches of U.S. 23, council stated in its resolution, calling on MDOT to prioritize safe connections at several U.S. 23 crossing points that were designed decades ago for high-speed motor vehicle movement without accommodations for people walking and biking.
"Really what we're asking of MDOT is for them to take this reconstruction as an opportunity to connect what has been divided and create safe, accessible options for people walking, biking and rolling to cross this freeway," said Council Member Dharma Akmon, D-4th Ward.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/10/ann-arbor-voices-opposition-to-widening-us-23-highway.html
Quote from: afguy on October 18, 2023, 03:24:55 PM
Hopefully MDOT ignores Ann Arbor...US-23 should have been widened decades ago.
Ann Arbor voices opposition to widening U.S. 23 highway
QuoteIn a resolution approved unanimously Monday night, Oct. 16, City Council called on MDOT to implement a highway design that does not include adding any new lanes or other actions that would increase private vehicle traffic volumes.
The city also wants to make sure MDOT gives close attention to the mobility needs of people walking, biking and riding buses, citing a goal to reduce driving in the city by 50% by 2030 as part of the city's quest to reduce carbon emissions. MDOT announced earlier this year it was launching a major study for the U.S. 23 corridor between M-14 and I-94 with plans to replace bridges and possibly widen the highway, saying it carries about 70,000 vehicles on a typical weekday and there's traffic congestion, including backups at exit ramps. The agency has been reviewing several alternatives to go from two to three lanes in each direction, including flex lanes similar to what exists on U.S. 23 north of Ann Arbor to relieve congestion during peak hours, high-occupancy vehicle lanes to promote carpooling, and other options.
MDOT has indicated it plans to finalize a design in 2025 for construction in 2026 through 2028.
The project represents "a generational $250 million investment" in rebuilding 1960s-era stretches of U.S. 23, council stated in its resolution, calling on MDOT to prioritize safe connections at several U.S. 23 crossing points that were designed decades ago for high-speed motor vehicle movement without accommodations for people walking and biking.
"Really what we're asking of MDOT is for them to take this reconstruction as an opportunity to connect what has been divided and create safe, accessible options for people walking, biking and rolling to cross this freeway," said Council Member Dharma Akmon, D-4th Ward.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/10/ann-arbor-voices-opposition-to-widening-us-23-highway.html
I am absolutely in favor of more and safer facilities for bicyclists and pedestrians to cross the freeway. With those provided, the city shouldn't care whether lanes are added to the freeway. When the city provides details of its plan to force 50% of the people driving there to stop doing so, then I'll be more interested in considering its opposition.
Ann Arbor is the same city that is considering buying out DTE infrastructure so it can run it's own electric utility on 100% renewables. Because DTE isn't moving away from carbon fast enough for them.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 18, 2023, 03:57:17 PM
Quote from: afguy on October 18, 2023, 03:24:55 PM
Hopefully MDOT ignores Ann Arbor...US-23 should have been widened decades ago.
Ann Arbor voices opposition to widening U.S. 23 highway
QuoteIn a resolution approved unanimously Monday night, Oct. 16, City Council called on MDOT to implement a highway design that does not include adding any new lanes or other actions that would increase private vehicle traffic volumes.
The city also wants to make sure MDOT gives close attention to the mobility needs of people walking, biking and riding buses, citing a goal to reduce driving in the city by 50% by 2030 as part of the city's quest to reduce carbon emissions. MDOT announced earlier this year it was launching a major study for the U.S. 23 corridor between M-14 and I-94 with plans to replace bridges and possibly widen the highway, saying it carries about 70,000 vehicles on a typical weekday and there's traffic congestion, including backups at exit ramps. The agency has been reviewing several alternatives to go from two to three lanes in each direction, including flex lanes similar to what exists on U.S. 23 north of Ann Arbor to relieve congestion during peak hours, high-occupancy vehicle lanes to promote carpooling, and other options.
MDOT has indicated it plans to finalize a design in 2025 for construction in 2026 through 2028.
The project represents "a generational $250 million investment" in rebuilding 1960s-era stretches of U.S. 23, council stated in its resolution, calling on MDOT to prioritize safe connections at several U.S. 23 crossing points that were designed decades ago for high-speed motor vehicle movement without accommodations for people walking and biking.
"Really what we're asking of MDOT is for them to take this reconstruction as an opportunity to connect what has been divided and create safe, accessible options for people walking, biking and rolling to cross this freeway," said Council Member Dharma Akmon, D-4th Ward.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/10/ann-arbor-voices-opposition-to-widening-us-23-highway.html
I am absolutely in favor of more and safer facilities for bicyclists and pedestrians to cross the freeway. With those provided, the city shouldn't care whether lanes are added to the freeway. When the city provides details of its plan to force 50% of the people driving there to stop doing so, then I'll be more interested in considering its opposition.
Ann Arbor's plan is not to "force 50% of the people driving there to stop", it's to make other forms of transportation more compelling to reduce the number of car trips taken. The city has actively been working on this by approving dense and mixed-use developments as well as building out the pedestrian and biking network.
Quote from: GaryV on October 18, 2023, 04:46:08 PM
Ann Arbor is the same city that is considering buying out DTE infrastructure so it can run it's own electric utility on 100% renewables. Because DTE isn't moving away from carbon fast enough for them.
That's not it at all. DTE is a frustrating electrical provider with frequent outages and high rates. It's no wonder the city would want to move away from DTE.
I say widen US 23 to six lanes and ignore the NIMBYs. I doubt expanding 23 will require massive amounts of homes and businesses to be torn down, and the needs of other modes of transportation, while important, should not overrule the benefits of an improved Ann Arbor freeway system.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 18, 2023, 10:22:36 PM
I say widen US 23 to six lanes and ignore the NIMBYs. I doubt expanding 23 will require massive amounts of homes and businesses to be torn down, and the needs of other modes of transportation, while important, should not overrule the benefits of an improved Ann Arbor freeway system.
Yeah we should widen it (as someone who's taken that rather frequently). If anything this isn't even the thing MDOT is doing that is most annoying to people in Ann Arbor, them trying to fence the rail ROW is awful.
US-23 should have been widened for it's entire stretch between the split in Flint to the Ohio line. That highway is well over capacity and two lanes in each direction aren't enough.
I rode on I-75 into Detroit yesterday and they already have the markings for the HOV lanes. South of 12 Mile it really started moving with the extra lane there now and the traffic that used to back up there didn't back up at all during the afternoon rush hour yesterday.
Quote from: Ellie on October 18, 2023, 05:24:55 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 18, 2023, 03:57:17 PM
Quote from: afguy on October 18, 2023, 03:24:55 PM
Hopefully MDOT ignores Ann Arbor...US-23 should have been widened decades ago.
Ann Arbor voices opposition to widening U.S. 23 highway
QuoteIn a resolution approved unanimously Monday night, Oct. 16, City Council called on MDOT to implement a highway design that does not include adding any new lanes or other actions that would increase private vehicle traffic volumes.
The city also wants to make sure MDOT gives close attention to the mobility needs of people walking, biking and riding buses, citing a goal to reduce driving in the city by 50% by 2030 as part of the city's quest to reduce carbon emissions. MDOT announced earlier this year it was launching a major study for the U.S. 23 corridor between M-14 and I-94 with plans to replace bridges and possibly widen the highway, saying it carries about 70,000 vehicles on a typical weekday and there's traffic congestion, including backups at exit ramps. The agency has been reviewing several alternatives to go from two to three lanes in each direction, including flex lanes similar to what exists on U.S. 23 north of Ann Arbor to relieve congestion during peak hours, high-occupancy vehicle lanes to promote carpooling, and other options.
MDOT has indicated it plans to finalize a design in 2025 for construction in 2026 through 2028.
The project represents "a generational $250 million investment" in rebuilding 1960s-era stretches of U.S. 23, council stated in its resolution, calling on MDOT to prioritize safe connections at several U.S. 23 crossing points that were designed decades ago for high-speed motor vehicle movement without accommodations for people walking and biking.
"Really what we're asking of MDOT is for them to take this reconstruction as an opportunity to connect what has been divided and create safe, accessible options for people walking, biking and rolling to cross this freeway," said Council Member Dharma Akmon, D-4th Ward.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2023/10/ann-arbor-voices-opposition-to-widening-us-23-highway.html
I am absolutely in favor of more and safer facilities for bicyclists and pedestrians to cross the freeway. With those provided, the city shouldn't care whether lanes are added to the freeway. When the city provides details of its plan to force 50% of the people driving there to stop doing so, then I'll be more interested in considering its opposition.
Ann Arbor's plan is not to "force 50% of the people driving there to stop", it's to make other forms of transportation more compelling to reduce the number of car trips taken. The city has actively been working on this by approving dense and mixed-use developments as well as building out the pedestrian and biking network.
That's fine as far as it goes, but let us know in seven years how much these isolated developments have reduced the number of vehicle miles. Hint: It will be far lower than 50%.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 19, 2023, 08:51:22 AM
US-23 should have been widened for it's entire stretch between the split in Flint to the Ohio line. That highway is well over capacity and two lanes in each direction aren't enough.
I concur, but not holding my breath for folks in Michigan to willingly plunk down an additional $500-1000/year in fuel taxes or registration fees to jump start a freeway widening spree.
Quote from: Ellie on October 18, 2023, 05:24:55 PMAnn Arbor's plan is not to "force 50% of the people driving there to stop", it's to make other forms of transportation more compelling to reduce the number of car trips taken. The city has actively been working on this by approving dense and mixed-use developments as well as building out the pedestrian and biking network.
I expect MDOT to make some accommodations for biking/walking/transit, but there's no either/or here. US-23 is not solely a "commute to Ann Arbor" route - it's also an important regional and state route that has to be built to safety standards. Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir on this one.
What's ironic is that these are the same folks complaining about MDOT proposal to remove (for safety reasons) the M-14/Barton Dr. interchange. It's not removing the M-14 freeway entirely, but it's also not widening the freeway and improving safety. When it comes down to it, public transportation or other non-car commuting is "fine for thee, but not for me". Basically, they want all the other folks off the road to keep it for themselves! But that's not how this works.
Quote from: Ellie on October 18, 2023, 10:59:04 PM
If anything this isn't even the thing MDOT is doing that is most annoying to people in Ann Arbor, them trying to fence the rail ROW is awful.
I understand the lack of fondness from residents for MDOT fencing off the railroad right-of-way (it IS state-owned railroad, BTW). Nobody involved with mapping out or building the railroad line in the 1800s was planning for someone in 2023 throwing a fit because they can't cross the railroad track to get to the river.
Obviously killing wayward students or wildlife is bad, so I also understand the compulsion for MDOT to try to stop it. And nobody has the appetite for funding any substantive change in routing or in over/underpasses to separate pedestrian and train traffic.
There's no good, cheap answers here - but it's a problem that's going to have to be solved if Ann Arbor expects people to use light rail to commute to work, or if genuinely high-speed rail is ever going to happen.
I've seen the fencing they want to put up, they look like prison bars.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 19, 2023, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: Ellie on October 18, 2023, 05:24:55 PM
Ann Arbor's plan is not to "force 50% of the people driving there to stop", it's to make other forms of transportation more compelling to reduce the number of car trips taken. The city has actively been working on this by approving dense and mixed-use developments as well as building out the pedestrian and biking network.
That's fine as far as it goes, but let us know in seven years how much these isolated developments have reduced the number of vehicle miles. Hint: It will be far lower than 50%.
Ann Arbor's plan is insufficient (they should be upzoning far more aggressively to avoid any developments being isolated, for example), but that does not mean it is a bad idea.
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 19, 2023, 04:21:25 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 19, 2023, 08:51:22 AM
US-23 should have been widened for it's entire stretch between the split in Flint to the Ohio line. That highway is well over capacity and two lanes in each direction aren't enough.
I concur, but not holding my breath for folks in Michigan to willingly plunk down an additional $500-1000/year in fuel taxes or registration fees to jump start a freeway widening spree.
Quote from: Ellie on October 18, 2023, 05:24:55 PMAnn Arbor's plan is not to "force 50% of the people driving there to stop", it's to make other forms of transportation more compelling to reduce the number of car trips taken. The city has actively been working on this by approving dense and mixed-use developments as well as building out the pedestrian and biking network.
I expect MDOT to make some accommodations for biking/walking/transit, but there's no either/or here. US-23 is not solely a "commute to Ann Arbor" route - it's also an important regional and state route that has to be built to safety standards. Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir on this one.
What's ironic is that these are the same folks complaining about MDOT proposal to remove (for safety reasons) the M-14/Barton Dr. interchange. It's not removing the M-14 freeway entirely, but it's also not widening the freeway and improving safety. When it comes down to it, public transportation or other non-car commuting is "fine for thee, but not for me". Basically, they want all the other folks off the road to keep it for themselves! But that's not how this works.
Quote from: Ellie on October 18, 2023, 10:59:04 PM
If anything this isn't even the thing MDOT is doing that is most annoying to people in Ann Arbor, them trying to fence the rail ROW is awful.
I understand the lack of fondness from residents for MDOT fencing off the railroad right-of-way (it IS state-owned railroad, BTW). Nobody involved with mapping out or building the railroad line in the 1800s was planning for someone in 2023 throwing a fit because they can't cross the railroad track to get to the river.
Obviously killing wayward students or wildlife is bad, so I also understand the compulsion for MDOT to try to stop it. And nobody has the appetite for funding any substantive change in routing or in over/underpasses to separate pedestrian and train traffic.
There's no good, cheap answers here - but it's a problem that's going to have to be solved if Ann Arbor expects people to use light rail to commute to work, or if genuinely high-speed rail is ever going to happen.
US-23 being a through route is exactly why I support widening. Induced demand applies generally when infrastructure improvements spur more development to use that infrastructure, but I don't see a widening doing that in this case. It would mostly just improve the flow of traffic.
As someone who lived near there, we definitely should not remove the M-14/Barton interchange before we start construction on the new plan. It's not really that dangerous if you know how to drive. Ban trucks from it, maybe.
As for the rail right-of-way, yeah, if we want to run a true HSR system we will need to secure it better. I don't see light rail ever getting run on those tracks, and I would imagine if Ann Arbor ever does get a metro system (one can dream) it would be grade-separated.
It's not surprising that Ann Arbor is anti-US 23.
Ann Arbor is so environmentally progressive that I'm surprised they have off leash dog parks.
Scientific studies by organizations as diverse as UCLA and New Scientist magazine have proved that the amount of carbon emitted to manufacture and distribute the food consumed by an average sized dog, is greater than the carbon emitted by an SUV.
Given the environmental views of people in Ann Arbor, I'd expect that they would be closing their off leash dog parks, so that people will be encouraged to fight climate change by not owning dogs.
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on October 25, 2023, 08:04:53 PM
It's not surprising that Ann Arbor is anti-US 23.
Ann Arbor is so environmentally progressive that I'm surprised they have off leash dog parks.
Scientific studies by organizations as diverse as UCLA and New Scientist magazine have proved that the amount of carbon emitted to manufacture and distribute the food consumed by an average sized dog, is greater than the carbon emitted by an SUV.
Given the environmental views of people in Ann Arbor, I'd expect that they would be closing their off leash dog parks, so that people will be encouraged to fight climate change by not owning dogs.
That comparison sounds idiotic to me. Same emissions as an SUV driven over the same distance? Well, duh. A semi would emit more, but it's carrying a lot of other stuff, too.
Just sounds like someone wanted a justification against some sort of vage environmental regulation, no matter how flawed.
Quote from: Rothman on October 25, 2023, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on October 25, 2023, 08:04:53 PM
It's not surprising that Ann Arbor is anti-US 23.
Ann Arbor is so environmentally progressive that I'm surprised they have off leash dog parks.
Scientific studies by organizations as diverse as UCLA and New Scientist magazine have proved that the amount of carbon emitted to manufacture and distribute the food consumed by an average sized dog, is greater than the carbon emitted by an SUV.
Given the environmental views of people in Ann Arbor, I'd expect that they would be closing their off leash dog parks, so that people will be encouraged to fight climate change by not owning dogs.
That comparison sounds idiotic to me. Same emissions as an SUV driven over the same distance? Well, duh. A semi would emit more, but it's carrying a lot of other stuff, too.
Just sounds like someone wanted a justification against some sort of vage environmental regulation, no matter how flawed.
Here are two examples of the studies, and they seem well researched:
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/the-truth-about-cats-and-dogs-environmental-impact
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/59619/dogs-cause-more-pollution-cars
Another major source of environmental harm is the manufacture and distribution of fast fashion garments. Studies show these garments are typically worn just seven to ten times before going to a landfill.
It's very frustrating that environmentalists oppose all road expansion projects, and feel people should refrain from air travel altogether, while largely ignoring the environmental harm of dogs and the clothing industry.
If we need to fight climate change, the burden should not be placed 100% on users of motor vehicles and aviation. Other groups, like people who shop at H&M and Zara, and dog owners, need to share the burden, too.
US-23 barely even enters Ann Arbor, it rides along the northern and eastern city limits and is controled by MDOT so who cares what Ann Arbor has to say about US-23?
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 26, 2023, 11:26:05 AM
US-23 barely even enters Ann Arbor, it rides along the northern and eastern city limits and is controled by MDOT so who cares what Ann Arbor has to say about US-23?
FHWA, through NEPA...
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on October 26, 2023, 03:16:02 AM
Here are two examples of the studies, and they seem well researched:
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/the-truth-about-cats-and-dogs-environmental-impact
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/59619/dogs-cause-more-pollution-cars
Another major source of environmental harm is the manufacture and distribution of fast fashion garments. Studies show these garments are typically worn just seven to ten times before going to a landfill.
It's very frustrating that environmentalists oppose all road expansion projects, and feel people should refrain from air travel altogether, while largely ignoring the environmental harm of dogs and the clothing industry.
If we need to fight climate change, the burden should not be placed 100% on users of motor vehicles and aviation. Other groups, like people who shop at H&M and Zara, and dog owners, need to share the burden, too.
That's all just "whataboutism". The unstated premise being since we can't do everything, might as well do nothing. Saturate the conversation with other, unrelated 'bad' things to make a given issue seem insurmountable so people give up and the status quo is maintained by default.
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on October 26, 2023, 03:16:02 AM
Another major source of environmental harm is the manufacture and distribution of fast fashion garments. Studies show these garments are typically worn just seven to ten times before going to a landfill.
It's very frustrating that environmentalists oppose all road expansion projects, and feel people should refrain from air travel altogether, while largely ignoring the environmental harm of dogs and the clothing industry.
If we need to fight climate change, the burden should not be placed 100% on users of motor vehicles and aviation. Other groups, like people who shop at H&M and Zara, and dog owners, need to share the burden, too.
Are you one of those who believe dogs give humans cancer?
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 26, 2023, 05:56:25 PM
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on October 26, 2023, 03:16:02 AM
Another major source of environmental harm is the manufacture and distribution of fast fashion garments. Studies show these garments are typically worn just seven to ten times before going to a landfill.
It's very frustrating that environmentalists oppose all road expansion projects, and feel people should refrain from air travel altogether, while largely ignoring the environmental harm of dogs and the clothing industry.
If we need to fight climate change, the burden should not be placed 100% on users of motor vehicles and aviation. Other groups, like people who shop at H&M and Zara, and dog owners, need to share the burden, too.
Are you one of those who believe dogs give humans cancer?
I think theories that dogs give humans cancer are absurd.
Many environmentalists act as though climate change will go away if everyone stops flying, uses mass transit as much as possible, and drives an EV rather than a gasoline powered automobile. There are numerous sources of greenhouse gas emissions, and blaming only road and air transportation is counterproductive.
It takes a lot of energy to manufacture the materials to construct mcMansions, and it takes even more energy to heat and cool them. As I mentioned earlier, the fast fashion industry is also dreadful for the environment, because of the energy required to manufacture garments, then ship them from sweat shops in Asia to H&M and Zara stores in the US and Europe, and the additional energy required to haul them to a landfill after the garments' owners throw them out. There are also negative environmental consequences of dog ownership.
To me, a person who protests against freeway expansion for environmental reasons, but lives in a mcMansion, shops at H&M or Zara two or three times a month, and / or owns a large dog, is NOT an environmentalist, because they are unwilling to reduce their own environmental footprint. What they are, is a hypocrite.
We're pretty far afield from Michigan...
...but not the dominant rants of a good number of Michiganders...
We Michiganians know our state well.
Quote from: Rothman on October 25, 2023, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on October 25, 2023, 08:04:53 PM
It's not surprising that Ann Arbor is anti-US 23.
Ann Arbor is so environmentally progressive that I'm surprised they have off leash dog parks.
Scientific studies by organizations as diverse as UCLA and New Scientist magazine have proved that the amount of carbon emitted to manufacture and distribute the food consumed by an average sized dog, is greater than the carbon emitted by an SUV.
Given the environmental views of people in Ann Arbor, I'd expect that they would be closing their off leash dog parks, so that people will be encouraged to fight climate change by not owning dogs.
That comparison sounds idiotic to me. Same emissions as an SUV driven over the same distance? Well, duh. A semi would emit more, but it's carrying a lot of other stuff, too.
Just sounds like someone wanted a justification against some sort of vague environmental regulation, no matter how flawed.
This is 100% what happened there. Took the words right out of my mouth (probably chose better ones than I would have, actually).
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 09, 2023, 06:01:37 PM
Some notes from a recent weekend trip to Michigan:
...
- We're within a week or so of I-94 construction in Kalamazoo wrapping up. All 6 lanes are open west of Sprinkle Rd, and the Portage Rd exit is simply missing signage (overhead and otherwise). That will be worthwhile relief.
MDOT announced that the 6-lane widening east to Sprinkle Rd is "substantially complete", with the Portage Rd interchange reopened to traffic.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/10/29/i-94-expansion-portage-road-interchange-reopens-today
I came across this article about the construction of the Davidson Freeway in Highland Park. There's lots of historic images.
https://detroiturbanism.blogspot.com/2023/01/highland-park-iv-davison-detroits-first.html
MDOT's railroad project to replace the overpasses of Mechanic St and Jackson St in Jackson has been completed.
It's not clear from the photos how much of a clearance improvement they achieved; the old overpass at Mechanic St was 10' 0", while Jackson St was 11' 9".
https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/pfbid02ydjszYa788nvUGNHsGMSZizCRwkmk31b74kmLAsX1bdJVdc1DKVMKoUmHiyiBeo8l (https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/pfbid02ydjszYa788nvUGNHsGMSZizCRwkmk31b74kmLAsX1bdJVdc1DKVMKoUmHiyiBeo8l)
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 01, 2023, 07:18:48 PM
MDOT's railroad project to replace the overpasses of Mechanic St and Jackson St in Jackson has been completed.
It's not clear from the photos how much of a clearance improvement they achieved; the old overpass at Mechanic St was 10' 0", while Jackson St was 11' 9".
https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/pfbid02ydjszYa788nvUGNHsGMSZizCRwkmk31b74kmLAsX1bdJVdc1DKVMKoUmHiyiBeo8l (https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/pfbid02ydjszYa788nvUGNHsGMSZizCRwkmk31b74kmLAsX1bdJVdc1DKVMKoUmHiyiBeo8l)
According to MDOT's response to a question in the comments of this Facebook post, the clearance on Mechanic Street is now 10' 7" and the clearance on Jackson Street is now 14' 6". MDOT's response also noted several factors prevented a higher Mechanic Street clearance : The M-50 intersection, other nearby grade separations, and the water table.
MDOT is now moving into the 3rd phase of the PEL Study for U.S. 131 in Grand Rapids. They are currently conducting an online survey through the end of the year. I able to get some screenshots of some of the potential changes along this corridor. I really to like the option of having Wealthy Street go under U.S. 131.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53306058303_366468c662_o.png) (https://flic.kr/p/2pdttYK)wealthystredesign (https://flic.kr/p/2pdttYK) by Brandon Dolley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125122378@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53306058833_de41e5730b_o.png) (https://flic.kr/p/2pdtu8T)MLKinterchangedesign (https://flic.kr/p/2pdtu8T) by Brandon Dolley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125122378@N05/), on Flickr
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/11/01/mdot-online-survey-two-public-meetings-to-discuss-rebuilding-options-for-us-131-in-grand-rapids
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 02, 2023, 11:25:24 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 01, 2023, 07:18:48 PM
MDOT's railroad project to replace the overpasses of Mechanic St and Jackson St in Jackson has been completed.
It's not clear from the photos how much of a clearance improvement they achieved; the old overpass at Mechanic St was 10' 0", while Jackson St was 11' 9".
https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/pfbid02ydjszYa788nvUGNHsGMSZizCRwkmk31b74kmLAsX1bdJVdc1DKVMKoUmHiyiBeo8l (https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/pfbid02ydjszYa788nvUGNHsGMSZizCRwkmk31b74kmLAsX1bdJVdc1DKVMKoUmHiyiBeo8l)
According to MDOT's response to a question in the comments of this Facebook post, the clearance on Mechanic Street is now 10' 7" and the clearance on Jackson Street is now 14' 6". MDOT's response also noted several factors prevented a higher Mechanic Street clearance : The M-50 intersection, other nearby grade separations, and the water table.
It's a good compromise; Jackson St was more likely to attract truckers looking to scalp their rides, and now any legal tractor-trailier can use it. MLK Dr is a couple blocks away for any trucks that need to access Mechanic St north of the railroad.
The appearance of both crossings are also vastly improved; the old bridges were solidly in ruin-porn territory.
The left-handed off and on-ramps should have been removed or realigned to the right-hand side a long time ago. Since Wealthy St. currently passes over the US 131 freeway, I believe it should continue to do so. Also, why does the US 131 freeway have an S-Curve at its junction with Interstate 196?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 03, 2023, 06:06:50 PM
The left-handed off and on-ramps should have been removed or realigned to the right-hand side a long time ago. Since Wealthy St. currently passes over the US 131 freeway, I believe it should continue to do so. Also, why does the US 131 freeway have an S-Curve at its junction with Interstate 196?
Are you talking about the quasi-DDI at the I-196 interchange? That was done to eliminate the need for a cloverleaf that wouldn't fit next to the river. Designed back in the early 1960's (even though I-196 wasn't built until much later) before left-hand exits and entrances were determined to be sub-optimal.
Or the named s-curve at Market and Wealthy? That was because south of Wealthy the freeway followed the railroad yard, and it had to bend to cross the river.
I remember sometimes taking my dad to work when I was about 5. (We only had one car, and if my mom needed it he still had to get to work.) We'd go down Turner Ave on the West Side, get on at Pearl St (where the open part of the freeway began) and then get off at Market St where my dad worked.
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on October 26, 2023, 03:16:02 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 25, 2023, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: Papa Emeritus on October 25, 2023, 08:04:53 PM
It's not surprising that Ann Arbor is anti-US 23.
Ann Arbor is so environmentally progressive that I'm surprised they have off leash dog parks.
Scientific studies by organizations as diverse as UCLA and New Scientist magazine have proved that the amount of carbon emitted to manufacture and distribute the food consumed by an average sized dog, is greater than the carbon emitted by an SUV.
Given the environmental views of people in Ann Arbor, I'd expect that they would be closing their off leash dog parks, so that people will be encouraged to fight climate change by not owning dogs.
That comparison sounds idiotic to me. Same emissions as an SUV driven over the same distance? Well, duh. A semi would emit more, but it's carrying a lot of other stuff, too.
Just sounds like someone wanted a justification against some sort of vage environmental regulation, no matter how flawed.
Here are two examples of the studies, and they seem well researched:
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/the-truth-about-cats-and-dogs-environmental-impact
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/59619/dogs-cause-more-pollution-cars
Another major source of environmental harm is the manufacture and distribution of fast fashion garments. Studies show these garments are typically worn just seven to ten times before going to a landfill.
It's very frustrating that environmentalists oppose all road expansion projects, and feel people should refrain from air travel altogether, while largely ignoring the environmental harm of dogs and the clothing industry.
If we need to fight climate change, the burden should not be placed 100% on users of motor vehicles and aviation. Other groups, like people who shop at H&M and Zara, and dog owners, need to share the burden, too.
This is a ridiculous comparison.
The reason environmentalists care about transportation emissions is because most people don't care about what method of transportation they use -- they just want to use what is most convenient for them. So if we can replace airplanes with HSR, or make cars more efficient and replace their use with transit, that's just a clear improvement. Environmentalists generally don't go after, like, antique car collectors, or car enthusiasts, because they're a small percentage of emissions, and not really something that can be replaced with a cleaner alternative.
As for the fast fashion industry, that gains plenty of criticism!
MDOT is planning on moving northbound I-275 traffic back to the rebuilt NB lanes on Monday, November 13.
All NB entrance and exit ramps to/from I-275 between Eureka Road and I-96/M-14 will be closed between 9AM and 3PM to accommodate the switch.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/37a1bc0
Quote from: catch22 on November 09, 2023, 08:29:31 AM
MDOT is planning on moving northbound I-275 traffic back to the rebuilt NB lanes on Monday, November 13.
All NB entrance and exit ramps to/from I-275 between Eureka Road and I-96/M-14 will be closed between 9AM and 3PM to accommodate the switch.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/37a1bc0
The plan was to rebuild the northbound lanes to just south of the I-96/M-14 interchange this year, and from there to 5 Mile Road next year. But the contractor did all of it this year. There probably will be short-term closures next year for landscaping, removing crossovers, and such.
Meanwhile, reopening of the eastbound I-696 lanes between I-275 and Lahser Road has been pushed back from November 15th to December 2nd, according to the MI Drive website (mi.gov/drive). There is still a good amount of concrete paving and other work to be done. The center median hasn't been rebuilt, so I'm guessing it will reopen for the winter either with only three lanes in each direction or with lanes on both sides shifted to the right and using the shoulders. The website shows reopening of the eastbound I-96 lanes between Kent Lake Road and I-275 also is scheduled for December 2nd.
Last Thursday outside New Buffalo, Amtrak's Wolverine train #355 collided with a tow truck and the vehicle it was attempting to extricate from the grade crossing. Apparently 911 dispatch received two calls about the stranded car, but attributed it in error to the nearby CSX track based on a malfunction with their dispatch system. 911 dispatch notified CSX instead of Amtrak, and by the time the Amtrak engineers were able to spot the car it was too late to stop the train. The railroad is now reopened and the damaged rail equipment being hauled away.
More: https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/dispatching-center-error-played-part-in-amtrak-collision-and-derailment-in-michigan/
Vote for your favorite Detroit songs as part of MDOT's Cass Avenue music sculpture(https://www.freep.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2023/11/21/PDTF/71670238007-cg-sounds-of-detroit-v-1-dusk-2.jpg?width=660&height=372&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
QuoteThe sculpture, titled "Sounds of Detroit," will be installed along Cass Avenue at the southwest corner of the I-94 interchange, where MDOT is now rebuilding the overpass. The site is around the corner from United Sound Systems, the iconic recording facility purchased by the state agency in 2018.
Songs selected by the public will be featured on the sculpture, which is described as a "community-inspired design" with "serpentine lines representing sound waves." Set for completion later in 2024, the sculpture is being designed by Cliff Garten Studio, a California firm that creates public art works. MDOT and the art studio were part of two recent neighborhood forums, where "there was a consensus that the narrative of the art should pay homage to the history of music in Detroit," MDOT said in a Tuesday statement.
As for picking the songs? There are two ballots, and voters can select five titles from each: The first ballot features tracks recorded at United Sound by various artists, from Aretha Franklin to George Clinton to the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
The second is a general list of Detroit classics, including Motown, rock, hip-hop, techno and more.
There's also a write-in option.
https://www.freep.com/story/entertainment/music/brian-mccollum/2023/11/21/detroit-songs-sculpture-vote-mdot-united-sound/71669687007/
MDOT is currently conducting a virtual open house for the CAV project along I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. After reading that MDOT plans to take away an existing lane for this project, I can't support it. Traffic along this stretch is already heavy and now MDOT essentially wants to turn one of the lanes into an "tolled express lanes", is totally unacceptable imo.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5910bbcc2ed24464a99168c13841ae03
Does Holland, MI really have an under the street snow melt system that prevents the need for snow plows? I've seen info on social media about that city never to have to plow its streets ever, however to me that seems a little out of it or clickbait material.
Quote from: afguy on December 03, 2023, 08:03:38 PM
MDOT is currently conducting a virtual open house for the CAV project along I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. After reading that MDOT plans to take away an existing lane for this project, I can't support it. Traffic along this stretch is already heavy and now MDOT essentially wants to turn one of the lanes into an "tolled express lanes", is totally unacceptable imo.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5910bbcc2ed24464a99168c13841ae03
According to the presentation all vehicles will be able to use the wired left lane, at least until some unknown future date when "the lane may have restrictions to CAVs only." Uh-huh.
My main objection, for which I submitted a comment form, is that barriers to physically separate the CAV lane will be installed from the beginning, even though that lane will be open to all vehicles. The planners seem to think motorists will change lanes only at interchange exits and entrances. The current reality is that many motorists already are constantly weaving from one lane to the next, trying to get in front of everyone else. This plan is going to increase the numbers of reckless lane changes, collisions, and road rage incidents. Why not just mark the lane as CAV-accessible with no physical separations, similar to the new HOV lanes on I-75 in southern Oakland County?
Quote from: roadman65 on December 04, 2023, 01:02:49 PM
Does Holland, MI really have an under the street snow melt system that prevents the need for snow plows? I've seen info on social media about that city never to have to plow its streets ever, however to me that seems a little out of it or clickbait material.
I don't know about the "never" portion of it, but they do have a snow melt system that covers much of its downtown area and obviates the need for plowing or salting along its service area (assuming it doesn't snow too hard or get too cold).
More info from the horse's mouth: https://www.cityofholland.com/879/Snowmelt-System
Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 04, 2023, 01:33:38 PM
Quote from: afguy on December 03, 2023, 08:03:38 PM
MDOT is currently conducting a virtual open house for the CAV project along I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit. After reading that MDOT plans to take away an existing lane for this project, I can't support it. Traffic along this stretch is already heavy and now MDOT essentially wants to turn one of the lanes into an "tolled express lanes", is totally unacceptable imo.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5910bbcc2ed24464a99168c13841ae03
According to the presentation all vehicles will be able to use the wired left lane, at least until some unknown future date when "the lane may have restrictions to CAVs only." Uh-huh.
My main objection, for which I submitted a comment form, is that barriers to physically separate the CAV lane will be installed from the beginning, even though that lane will be open to all vehicles. The planners seem to think motorists will change lanes only at interchange exits and entrances. The current reality is that many motorists already are constantly weaving from one lane to the next, trying to get in front of everyone else. This plan is going to increase the numbers of reckless lane changes, collisions, and road rage incidents. Why not just mark the lane as CAV-accessible with no physical separations, similar to the new HOV lanes on I-75 in southern Oakland County?
I agree 100% with you about this.
I think this could be a big problem near Detroit Metro Airport, because there is one exit for the ramps to both Merriman and Middlebelt. People who are unfamiliar with westbound I 94 think they don't have to exit the freeway for the terminals until past Middlebelt, then, when they see there is just one exit, they have to frantically cross multiple lanes to avoid overshooting the airport.
One of the more durable myths of the Upper Peninsula has been that of the Paulding Light. This light appears on a side road off US-45 just north of the Wisconsin state line.
While locals like to attribute these to things like swamp gas, ghosts, or geologic activity, the most likely (and boring) explanation has been simply that it's lights from vehicle traffic on US-45.
Periodically, it compels Michigan Tech students to come out, document the phenomenon, and put their scientific minds to work. These students brought out a massive telescope and other video recording equipment to shed a light on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKIQ8DpWC_Q
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AA4ybrm7w2CbxETcA
The Free Press discusses the lack of enforcement of the HOV lanes on the newly rebuilt sections of I-75 in Oakland County, and the solo driving folks taking advantage. Apparently MDOT got $40 million from the Feds to install the HOV lanes, which they might demand back if not properly enforced. https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2023/12/21/michigan-hov-lanes-police-restrictions/71913897007
SM-G991U
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 21, 2023, 10:50:37 AM
The Free Press discusses the lack of enforcement of the HOV lanes on the newly rebuilt sections of I-75 in Oakland County, and the solo driving folks taking advantage. Apparently MDOT got $40 million from the Feds to install the HOV lanes, which they might demand back if not properly enforced. https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2023/12/21/michigan-hov-lanes-police-restrictions/71913897007
SM-G991U
My take on this which is buried in the article: Good on the Michigan State Police management for deciding their officers' time is better used elsewhere than being fee collectors.
A side story, relayed to me by my state senator -- names withheld to protect the naive.
Over the past 40 years, it has been well documented that HOV lanes didn't do what they were originally designed to do which is to incentivize people to carpool. The people that legally use them are families on vacation ... or people that carpool for other reasons.
So this summer an Oakland county state house member asked the question to MDOT directly what would happen if MDOT didn't implement the HOV plans for the Oakland County I-75 expansion -- that were on the original design from the 1990s -- ... and just opened all four lanes. He replied that Michigan would have to pay the federal government $40 million dollars. The next question was "per year?" and the answer was it was one time cost.
So he immediately put out an amendment to a bill to pay back the $40M since it seemed obvious it was what all drivers (regardless of political affiliation) actually wanted for a ridiculously cheap price especially over the 30 year life time of the freeway.
He had high hopes it would be the first amendment or bill -- introduced by Republican -- in the 2023/24 legislative session to make it into law.
He was mistaken.
Mound Road reopens after construction: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/macomb-county/2023/12/20/220m-project-to-transform-mound-road-in-macomb-co-nears-completion/71936989007/
(They promised it would be "done" by Christmas, but I guess they didn't mean "done-done" because there's still work to do in the spring.)
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 18, 2023, 08:17:56 PM
One of the more durable myths of the Upper Peninsula has been that of the Paulding Light. This light appears on a side road off US-45 just north of the Wisconsin state line.
While locals like to attribute these to things like swamp gas, ghosts, or geologic activity, the most likely (and boring) explanation has been simply that it's lights from vehicle traffic on US-45.
Periodically, it compels Michigan Tech students to come out, document the phenomenon, and put their scientific minds to work. These students brought out a massive telescope and other video recording equipment to shed a light on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKIQ8DpWC_Q
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AA4ybrm7w2CbxETcA
It's totally the lights of traffic further north on US 45. But with the added glitch of something called a superficial mirage where, due to temperature differences in the air over the varying elevation between the highway and the observation point, there is a lensing effect that allows light to 'bend' over to top of a hill. So while in daylight, there is no direct line-of-sight to the traffic further north, at night as the low places cool faster than the high places, this lensing effect causes the lights from traffic to be directly visible.
Fascinating little spot; I was there once as a teenager. But even then the 'mystery' was quite apparent, even if I was unaware of the lensing effect going on. I simply opened the Delorme atlas and was like, "Look, we're here, and look what's straight north of us: the damn highway!"
Quote from: GaryV on December 21, 2023, 12:24:26 PM
Mound Road reopens after construction: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/macomb-county/2023/12/20/220m-project-to-transform-mound-road-in-macomb-co-nears-completion/71936989007/
(They promised it would be "done" by Christmas, but I guess they didn't mean "done-done" because there's still work to do in the spring.)
Not mentioned in the article is that much of that section of Mound Road had been reconstructed ~20 years ago and immediately started falling apart. I hope they did a better job of it this time.
I wonder what the Mound Rd. corridor would be like today if the proposed freeway had been constructed?
People at church reported that there were no streetlights on Mound Road yesterday in the fog.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 21, 2023, 05:49:58 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 18, 2023, 08:17:56 PM
One of the more durable myths of the Upper Peninsula has been that of the Paulding Light. This light appears on a side road off US-45 just north of the Wisconsin state line.
While locals like to attribute these to things like swamp gas, ghosts, or geologic activity, the most likely (and boring) explanation has been simply that it's lights from vehicle traffic on US-45.
Periodically, it compels Michigan Tech students to come out, document the phenomenon, and put their scientific minds to work. These students brought out a massive telescope and other video recording equipment to shed a light on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKIQ8DpWC_Q
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AA4ybrm7w2CbxETcA
It's totally the lights of traffic further north on US 45. But with the added glitch of something called a superficial mirage where, due to temperature differences in the air over the varying elevation between the highway and the observation point, there is a lensing effect that allows light to 'bend' over to top of a hill. So while in daylight, there is no direct line-of-sight to the traffic further north, at night as the low places cool faster than the high places, this lensing effect causes the lights from traffic to be directly visible.
Actually, it's just basic physics. For those who don't understand, why not take a couple of extra lessons? It's easy to find https://mysupergeek.com/assignment-help-service (https://mysupergeek.com/assignment-help-service), where they'll quickly explain such obvious things to you. Better learn in school, guys, and you won't be surprised by the world around you like primitives. Fascinating little spot; I was there once as a teenager. But even then the 'mystery' was quite apparent, even if I was unaware of the lensing effect going on. I simply opened the Delorme atlas and was like, "Look, we're here, and look what's straight north of us: the damn highway!"
Well, this still looks funny. As someone once said, "If you don't know physics, the world becomes full of wonders".
Quote from: Daisy Rahman on December 25, 2023, 11:39:44 AM
Well, this still looks funny. As someone once said, "If you don't know physics, the world becomes full of wonders".
Your response landed inside the last paragraph of mine quoted. Make sure your text comes after the quote BBCode. That's the "[/quote]" thing you'll see when you go to edit the post.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 24, 2023, 06:28:17 PM
I wonder what the Mound Rd. corridor would be like today if the proposed freeway had been constructed?
I made a post about this on the Fictional Highways forum a few years ago: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17970.msg2145020#msg2145020
Over 400 wrong-way crashes per year - and likely the vast majority of the drivers were drunk.
West Michigan officials expanding use of wrong-way detectors to save lives
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/west-michigan-officials-expanding-use-wrong-way-detectors-save-lives (https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/west-michigan-officials-expanding-use-wrong-way-detectors-save-lives)
Hoping to avoid deadly collisions, Michigan transportation and police officials plan to add new wrong-way detection systems to a busy stretch of highway in Grand Rapids — an effort that transportation officials around the state are watching with interest.
The high-tech systems, attached to existing "Wrong Way" or "Do Not Enter signs," automatically trigger lights and cameras whenever a driver tries to enter the highway using the wrong ramp. Drivers pulling onto an off-ramp will immediately see flashing lights alerting them to their potentially catastrophic error, police will be notified, and cameras will begin recording footage of the incident, allowing authorities to rule out false alarms.
A DDI design was chosen for the rebuild of the I-75/M-32 interchange in Gaylord.
QuoteBeginning in 2026, MDOT plans to replace the northbound and southbound I-75 bridges over M-32 in Gaylord and rebuild M-32 between Edelweiss Village Parkway/Meecher Road and Wisconsin Avenue. These bridges were built in 1961, are currently in poor condition, and need to be replaced. This provides an opportunity to consider alternatives for this interchange that provide safe and efficient movement of people and goods through the Gaylord area and accommodate future increased traffic.
"Choosing the DDI design was guided by our meetings with the public and local advisory committee members, as well as our design consultants," said Chelsea Kramer, cost and scheduling engineer for MDOT's Gaylord Transportation Service Center (TSC) and the interchange project manager. "This design had support from the community and provides the best balance of improvements to the movement of traffic, as well as safety and convenience for all users, drivers, bicyclists, and pedestrians."
A DDI is an alternative interchange that improves safety, increases traffic flow, and can reduce construction costs. They have been successfully implemented at several locations throughout Michigan in recent years, helping reduce crashes and congestion.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/01/25/diverging-diamond-interchange-selected-for-i-75-m-32-in-gaylord
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 04, 2024, 07:31:07 PM
Over 400 wrong-way crashes per year - and likely the vast majority of the drivers were drunk.
West Michigan officials expanding use of wrong-way detectors to save lives
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/west-michigan-officials-expanding-use-wrong-way-detectors-save-lives (https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/west-michigan-officials-expanding-use-wrong-way-detectors-save-lives)
Hoping to avoid deadly collisions, Michigan transportation and police officials plan to add new wrong-way detection systems to a busy stretch of highway in Grand Rapids — an effort that transportation officials around the state are watching with interest.
The high-tech systems, attached to existing "Wrong Way" or "Do Not Enter signs," automatically trigger lights and cameras whenever a driver tries to enter the highway using the wrong ramp. Drivers pulling onto an off-ramp will immediately see flashing lights alerting them to their potentially catastrophic error, police will be notified, and cameras will begin recording footage of the incident, allowing authorities to rule out false alarms.
This made me think of something that I saw this morning in Saginaw. Mason Street is a one way street and I observed a car drive in the wrong direction for several blocks. I thought it was strange seeing a car oncoming down a one way street.
Quote from: afguy on January 25, 2024, 07:11:46 PM
A DDI design was chosen for the rebuild of the I-75/M-32 interchange in Gaylord.
As rapidly as Gaylord west of I-75 has developed, it's definitely overdue. 70 years ago, the commercial strip of Gaylord was the stretch of US-27 coming in from Lake Otsego on the south side (today's exit 279). But in the past 25 years all the new development's gone to M-32 on the west side, and it's utterly overloaded the interchange.
The FB commentary from the locals was rather hysterical, with dire predictions of a traffic apocalypse about to descend on the "small town" of Gaylord. Except, actually, that apocalypse is already here. The diverging diamond should help the Brodozers towing McMansions keep from flipping their rigs.
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 25, 2024, 10:33:06 PM
Quote from: afguy on January 25, 2024, 07:11:46 PM
A DDI design was chosen for the rebuild of the I-75/M-32 interchange in Gaylord.
Except, actually, that apocalypse is already here.
Absolutely true. I-75 NB wishing to exit backs up about 1/2 mile onto the freeway. All from people wanting to turn left.
Personally I would have gone with a dog-bone, but the DDI despite being a slight overkill IMO, but it will be a lot better than what is there now.
(https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/I-Route/I-75-Interchange-Gaylord/1-75-M-32-DDI-Rendering.jpg)
Also on a related rant: :pan: for years MDOTs website had unreadable URLs being hexadecimal hashes, but the content acutally was chock full of useful information for major projects -- like actual CAD drawings and monthly updates. Now they have fixed the page names, but you are lucky to get a solitary rendering and the ubiquitous link to the sporadically updated MIDrive website along with its 1990s webcams.
A Michigan State Police trooper was fatally struck while conducting a traffic stop Wednesday near Birch Run. The trooper was investigating an impaired driver on NB I-75 when he was struck.
East Lansing and Meridian Township (eastern suburb of East Lansing) are proposing road diets for two major streets from 4-lane to a 3-lane with TWLTL and bike lanes:
- Hagadorn Rd between Grand River Ave (M-43) and Burcham Dr.
- Mount Hope Rd between Hagadorn Rd and Okemos Rd.
The section of Hagadorn apparently is well within AADT limits of a 3-lane roadway (approx 16,000 vpd at peak). It's not clear why the City of East Lansing is only proposing the 3-lane conversion for south of Burcham Dr; continuity would be much better if the 3-lane section extended to Haslett Rd. The section north of Saginaw St (Bus I-69) is already 3-lane with TWLTL. Obviously turn lanes are needed for the short section between Haslett Rd and Saginaw St, but that shouldn't be too terrible.
The section of Mount Hope between Hagadorn and Okemos should be a no-brainer; traffic is well within limits (peak of about 12,000 vpd near Okemos Rd), and one lane instead of two should calm traffic in this residential area. The primary complaint is that on Spartan football days, there's less available throughput. It's a bit academic because only one lane of left-turning traffic from Okemos Rd is available. Also, only an issue 6 days a year.
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2024/01/29/meridian-township-east-lansing-road-diet-conversion-mt-hope-hagadorn/72338073007/ (https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2024/01/29/meridian-township-east-lansing-road-diet-conversion-mt-hope-hagadorn/72338073007/)
MDOT is paying Michigan residents $10 for their opinion on changing the road funding model, potentially resulting in replacing the gas tax outright with a different funding source. Those completing the survey may also participate in a pilot demonstration that could potentially provide additional incentives of $75 to $500.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/01/30/mdot-launches-road-usage-charges-survey--to-gauge-public-interest
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2024, 06:50:30 PM
MDOT is paying Michigan residents $10 for their opinion on changing the road funding model, potentially resulting in replacing the gas tax outright with a different funding source. Those completing the survey may also participate in a pilot demonstration that could potentially provide additional incentives of $75 to $500.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/01/30/mdot-launches-road-usage-charges-survey--to-gauge-public-interest
Heh. Wonder if people will go for the VMT tax. :D
Out in the middle of Saginaw County very heavy police presence at the Bridgeport exit on I-75 exit 144. Today is the funeral of the officer that was killed last week.
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2024, 06:50:30 PM
MDOT is paying Michigan residents $10 for their opinion on changing the road funding model, potentially resulting in replacing the gas tax outright with a different funding source. Those completing the survey may also participate in a pilot demonstration that could potentially provide additional incentives of $75 to $500.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/01/30/mdot-launches-road-usage-charges-survey--to-gauge-public-interest
The MDOT article states:
QuoteOne possible funding tool is road usage charges, which means drivers would pay a few cents for each mile driven versus paying based on how much gas they buy. Charging based on miles driven could make the system fairer for drivers who cannot afford newer, more fuel-efficient cars, while also ensuring that the state continues to have the resources needed to maintain roads in the future as vehicles become more fuel efficient or rely on alternative fuels.
On the flip side, shouldn't people who drive smaller and more fuel-efficient cars be rewarded? A gas tax would become outdated if EV adoption becomes widespread, but even then, we should be encouraging people to buy vehicles that require less "fuel" (whether that be gasoline, diesel, or electricity).
Quote from: 7/8 on January 31, 2024, 01:35:15 PM
On the flip side, shouldn't people who drive smaller and more fuel-efficient cars be rewarded? A gas tax would become outdated if EV adoption becomes widespread, but even then, we should be encouraging people to buy vehicles that require less "fuel" (whether that be gasoline, diesel, or electricity).
Spending less money on fuel is the encouragement. The fuel efficiency of a vehicle has no connection to the construction/maintenance/repair needs of roads, so it should not be a factor in a funding formula. Actually, maybe EV drivers should pay more to cover the extra costs of building in-road and other additional charging infrastructure.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 31, 2024, 01:54:44 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on January 31, 2024, 01:35:15 PM
On the flip side, shouldn't people who drive smaller and more fuel-efficient cars be rewarded? A gas tax would become outdated if EV adoption becomes widespread, but even then, we should be encouraging people to buy vehicles that require less "fuel" (whether that be gasoline, diesel, or electricity).
Spending less money on fuel is the encouragement.
Should be, but the rise in SUV and pickup truck sales suggest that that alone isn't sufficient. Steeper fuel taxes may swing the balance away from larger vehicle adoption.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 31, 2024, 01:54:44 PM
The fuel efficiency of a vehicle has no connection to the construction/maintenance/repair needs of roads, so it should not be a factor in a funding formula.
I see your point, but I'd counter argue that the government should be encouraging lower carbon emissions, so might as well "get two birds stoned at once" (i.e. get necessary transportation funding while also penalizing inefficient vehicle users).
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 31, 2024, 01:54:44 PM
Actually, maybe EV drivers should pay more to cover the extra costs of building in-road and other additional charging infrastructure.
Discouraging EV adoption is certainly an opinion...
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2024, 06:50:30 PM
MDOT is paying Michigan residents $10 for their opinion on changing the road funding model, potentially resulting in replacing the gas tax outright with a different funding source. Those completing the survey may also participate in a pilot demonstration that could potentially provide additional incentives of $75 to $500.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/01/30/mdot-launches-road-usage-charges-survey--to-gauge-public-interest
MDOT announced that they're still totally cool getting your opinion, but they've supposedly received so many responses they ran out of funds to pay new survey respondents the $10.
Not surprising. "You mean the guv-mint will pay me to tell them what I think of them? Sign me up!"
The Lansing Convention and Visitors Bureau posted video and slides from a MDOT presentation for the upcoming work on I-496/US-127 in Lansing and East Lansing.
https://www.lansing.org/plan-your-trip/maps-and-directions/us-127-construction-project/
And, a blast from the past - scenes from US-27 (and one from US-127):
https://99wfmk.com/old-27-vintage-photos/
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 09, 2024, 12:13:14 AM
And, a blast from the past - scenes from US-27 (and one from US-127):
https://99wfmk.com/old-27-vintage-photos/
Thanks for the link, lots of interesting pictures. I'm old enough to remember visiting the Underground Forest while camping at Otsego Lake. When I-75 opened, they moved up the road to Gaylord and became the Call of the Wild Museum. I'm surprised that the old facade still exists.
Edit: Looks like someone is working on the old building. Google street view from last September:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/o1GmHHJrTjEqf7FY6
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2024, 06:50:30 PM
MDOT is paying Michigan residents $10 for their opinion on changing the road funding model, potentially resulting in replacing the gas tax outright with a different funding source. Those completing the survey may also participate in a pilot demonstration that could potentially provide additional incentives of $75 to $500.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/01/30/mdot-launches-road-usage-charges-survey--to-gauge-public-interest
I was one of the first to respond to the survey (I'm on their mailing list) and still haven't gotten my gift card :-D
I said if they increase the gas tax, it should only be increased in the winter when gas is less than 3 dollars a gallon, and should be lowered in the summer time where gas can be 4-5 dollars a gallon.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on February 24, 2024, 02:40:57 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2024, 06:50:30 PM
MDOT is paying Michigan residents $10 for their opinion on changing the road funding model, potentially resulting in replacing the gas tax outright with a different funding source. Those completing the survey may also participate in a pilot demonstration that could potentially provide additional incentives of $75 to $500.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/01/30/mdot-launches-road-usage-charges-survey--to-gauge-public-interest
I was one of the first to respond to the survey (I'm on their mailing list) and still haven't gotten my gift card :-D
I said if they increase the gas tax, it should only be increased in the winter when gas is less than 3 dollars a gallon, and should be lowered in the summer time where gas can be 4-5 dollars a gallon.
Tell us you're unclear on the concept without saying you're unclear on the concept.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 24, 2024, 04:56:00 PM
Quote from: michiganguy123 on February 24, 2024, 02:40:57 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 30, 2024, 06:50:30 PM
MDOT is paying Michigan residents $10 for their opinion on changing the road funding model, potentially resulting in replacing the gas tax outright with a different funding source. Those completing the survey may also participate in a pilot demonstration that could potentially provide additional incentives of $75 to $500.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/01/30/mdot-launches-road-usage-charges-survey--to-gauge-public-interest
I was one of the first to respond to the survey (I'm on their mailing list) and still haven't gotten my gift card :-D
I said if they increase the gas tax, it should only be increased in the winter when gas is less than 3 dollars a gallon, and should be lowered in the summer time where gas can be 4-5 dollars a gallon.
Tell us you're unclear on the concept without saying you're unclear on the concept.
It asked for additional comments so I provided... I chose to keep the gas tax because the mileage tax is going to cost more money for me as my little civic gets 34mpg on the highway.
30 cents (current michigan gas tax) / 34 = 0.88 cents which is less than the "few cents per mile" they suggested in the survey.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 25, 2024, 08:26:51 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 04, 2024, 07:31:07 PM
Over 400 wrong-way crashes per year - and likely the vast majority of the drivers were drunk.
West Michigan officials expanding use of wrong-way detectors to save lives
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/west-michigan-officials-expanding-use-wrong-way-detectors-save-lives (https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/west-michigan-officials-expanding-use-wrong-way-detectors-save-lives)
Hoping to avoid deadly collisions, Michigan transportation and police officials plan to add new wrong-way detection systems to a busy stretch of highway in Grand Rapids — an effort that transportation officials around the state are watching with interest.
The high-tech systems, attached to existing "Wrong Way" or "Do Not Enter signs," automatically trigger lights and cameras whenever a driver tries to enter the highway using the wrong ramp. Drivers pulling onto an off-ramp will immediately see flashing lights alerting them to their potentially catastrophic error, police will be notified, and cameras will begin recording footage of the incident, allowing authorities to rule out false alarms.
This made me think of something that I saw this morning in Saginaw. Mason Street is a one way street and I observed a car drive in the wrong direction for several blocks. I thought it was strange seeing a car oncoming down a one way street.
When I was a Lyft driver my weekend wasn't complete unless I saw a wrong-way driver
Quote from: texaskdog on February 29, 2024, 06:26:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 25, 2024, 08:26:51 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 04, 2024, 07:31:07 PM
Over 400 wrong-way crashes per year - and likely the vast majority of the drivers were drunk.
West Michigan officials expanding use of wrong-way detectors to save lives
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/west-michigan-officials-expanding-use-wrong-way-detectors-save-lives (https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/west-michigan-officials-expanding-use-wrong-way-detectors-save-lives)
Hoping to avoid deadly collisions, Michigan transportation and police officials plan to add new wrong-way detection systems to a busy stretch of highway in Grand Rapids — an effort that transportation officials around the state are watching with interest.
The high-tech systems, attached to existing "Wrong Way" or "Do Not Enter signs," automatically trigger lights and cameras whenever a driver tries to enter the highway using the wrong ramp. Drivers pulling onto an off-ramp will immediately see flashing lights alerting them to their potentially catastrophic error, police will be notified, and cameras will begin recording footage of the incident, allowing authorities to rule out false alarms.
This made me think of something that I saw this morning in Saginaw. Mason Street is a one way street and I observed a car drive in the wrong direction for several blocks. I thought it was strange seeing a car oncoming down a one way street.
When I was a Lyft driver my weekend wasn't complete unless I saw a wrong-way driver
I see a lot of stupid stuff around here. It seems like the bigger the city in Michigan the worse the drivers are.
The Mayor of Lansing penned an op ed in the Lansing State Journal today calling for the city to seek a federal grant to put a cap over a portion of I-496 through Lansing.
I'm the mayor of Lansing. We need a federal grant to fix harm caused by I-496. | OpinionQuoteToday, thanks to federal financing provided by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act, my city is seeking to reconnect the 400 isolated households and businesses with the community to which they originally belonged. And we want to recognize and give power to those who were forcibly displaced and dispersed throughout the city.
Divided and disconnected neighborhoods are an all-too-common consequence of urban highway construction during the 1960s and 1970s. When U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg launched Reconnecting Communities and Neighborhoods grants, he said, "These highways, roads, and railways are not rivers, lakes, or mountains, they're not divinely ordained. They're decisions. And we can make better decisions than what came before." The federal funds seemed tailor-made for Lansing. But our application in 2022 was not successful. The pool of money available then was modest – about $188 million. The requests nationally were far greater – totaling $2 billion. And so remains the demand.
Undeterred, we have reapplied. This time we have assistance from the Local Infrastructure Hub, a national program created in 2022 – and led by a consortium of philanthropic and nonprofit groups – to offer pro-bono resources to cities like ours. The federal government has made more than $3 billion available this round. That gave us hope. And the Local Infrastructure Hub gave us the tools for a vastly improved proposal. We knew we had a compelling history to tell. The program's experts showed us how to back it up and equipped us with tools to make our case.
Our new application underscores national data that shows people, especially families with children, living close to expressways experience poor lung health, including asthma, pulmonary disease, and reduced lung-function growth among young people. Additional research has shown increased rates of heart problems as a result of air pollution sourced from roadways. We also know that property facing or adjacent to expressways experience reduced property values. Bloomberg Philanthropies, by forming a coalition of national charitable organizations and civic groups including the Ballmer Group, Emerson Collective, Ford Foundation, The Kresge Foundation, The U.S. Conference of Mayors, National League of Cities, Results for America and more, has leveled the playing field for localities lacking armies of grant writers, lawyers, and statisticians — like ours. In addition to bringing together the support and specialists, the program also connects mayors representing municipalities of all sizes with federal agency heads overseeing these programs, as well as with each other. Now, Lansing is applying for a $1.3 million grant to seek community views and design corrective options. Our preference would be a cap, or deck, over a portion of I-496 to connect those isolated blocks to the rest of the city with parks, housing, even a memorial recognizing how a Black community was separated.
The Historical Society of Greater Lansing has collected oral histories from current and former residents. We want those voices to be heard. Just six months ago we released "They Even Took the Dirt", a documentary about that dislocation.
Lansing is a city of 113,000; one out of four of our residents is Black. This federal grant is written for our community's experience. But we're not alone. The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 displaced more than 475,000 households across the country, most of them in communities of color.
We can't rebuild what has been destroyed. But we can still correct a wrong. And like that third grader years ago bouncing a ball at the Main Street School, we'll succeed if we persist. If we can reconnect communities, we can begin to unite a nation.
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/opinion/contributors/2024/03/07/i-496-lansing-expressway-infrastructure-interstate-federal-grant/72698665007/
Quote from: afguy on March 07, 2024, 05:09:31 PM
The Mayor of Lansing penned an op ed in the Lansing State Journal today calling for the city to seek a federal grant to put a cap over a portion of I-496 through Lansing.
I'm the mayor of Lansing. We need a federal grant to fix harm caused by I-496. | Opinion
QuoteToday, thanks to federal financing provided by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act, my city is seeking to reconnect the 400 isolated households and businesses with the community to which they originally belonged. And we want to recognize and give power to those who were forcibly displaced and dispersed throughout the city.
Divided and disconnected neighborhoods are an all-too-common consequence of urban highway construction during the 1960s and 1970s. When U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg launched Reconnecting Communities and Neighborhoods grants, he said, "These highways, roads, and railways are not rivers, lakes, or mountains, they're not divinely ordained. They're decisions. And we can make better decisions than what came before." The federal funds seemed tailor-made for Lansing. But our application in 2022 was not successful. The pool of money available then was modest – about $188 million. The requests nationally were far greater – totaling $2 billion. And so remains the demand.
Undeterred, we have reapplied. This time we have assistance from the Local Infrastructure Hub, a national program created in 2022 – and led by a consortium of philanthropic and nonprofit groups – to offer pro-bono resources to cities like ours. The federal government has made more than $3 billion available this round. That gave us hope. And the Local Infrastructure Hub gave us the tools for a vastly improved proposal. We knew we had a compelling history to tell. The program's experts showed us how to back it up and equipped us with tools to make our case.
Our new application underscores national data that shows people, especially families with children, living close to expressways experience poor lung health, including asthma, pulmonary disease, and reduced lung-function growth among young people. Additional research has shown increased rates of heart problems as a result of air pollution sourced from roadways. We also know that property facing or adjacent to expressways experience reduced property values. Bloomberg Philanthropies, by forming a coalition of national charitable organizations and civic groups including the Ballmer Group, Emerson Collective, Ford Foundation, The Kresge Foundation, The U.S. Conference of Mayors, National League of Cities, Results for America and more, has leveled the playing field for localities lacking armies of grant writers, lawyers, and statisticians — like ours. In addition to bringing together the support and specialists, the program also connects mayors representing municipalities of all sizes with federal agency heads overseeing these programs, as well as with each other. Now, Lansing is applying for a $1.3 million grant to seek community views and design corrective options. Our preference would be a cap, or deck, over a portion of I-496 to connect those isolated blocks to the rest of the city with parks, housing, even a memorial recognizing how a Black community was separated.
The Historical Society of Greater Lansing has collected oral histories from current and former residents. We want those voices to be heard. Just six months ago we released "They Even Took the Dirt", a documentary about that dislocation.
Lansing is a city of 113,000; one out of four of our residents is Black. This federal grant is written for our community's experience. But we're not alone. The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 displaced more than 475,000 households across the country, most of them in communities of color.
We can't rebuild what has been destroyed. But we can still correct a wrong. And like that third grader years ago bouncing a ball at the Main Street School, we'll succeed if we persist. If we can reconnect communities, we can begin to unite a nation.
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/opinion/contributors/2024/03/07/i-496-lansing-expressway-infrastructure-interstate-federal-grant/72698665007/
Atleast i-96 goes around the city. Dunno why other states decide to have the main cross country highway go straight through the city instead of having the main designation be around the city with spur routes going into cities. (Think i-475 in Macon, GA, really they should be flipped with the shortcut away from Macon being i-75 and the route into Macon being i-475) Last time I was on i-496 the highway was EMPTY, although it was a sunday so that probably made a difference.
Quote from: afguy on March 07, 2024, 05:09:31 PM
The Mayor of Lansing penned an op ed in the Lansing State Journal today calling for the city to seek a federal grant to put a cap over a portion of I-496 through Lansing.
I'm the mayor of Lansing. We need a federal grant to fix harm caused by I-496. | Opinion
QuoteToday, thanks to federal financing provided by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act, my city is seeking to reconnect the 400 isolated households and businesses with the community to which they originally belonged. And we want to recognize and give power to those who were forcibly displaced and dispersed throughout the city.
Divided and disconnected neighborhoods are an all-too-common consequence of urban highway construction during the 1960s and 1970s. When U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg launched Reconnecting Communities and Neighborhoods grants, he said, "These highways, roads, and railways are not rivers, lakes, or mountains, they're not divinely ordained. They're decisions. And we can make better decisions than what came before." The federal funds seemed tailor-made for Lansing. But our application in 2022 was not successful. The pool of money available then was modest – about $188 million. The requests nationally were far greater – totaling $2 billion. And so remains the demand.
Undeterred, we have reapplied. This time we have assistance from the Local Infrastructure Hub, a national program created in 2022 – and led by a consortium of philanthropic and nonprofit groups – to offer pro-bono resources to cities like ours. The federal government has made more than $3 billion available this round. That gave us hope. And the Local Infrastructure Hub gave us the tools for a vastly improved proposal. We knew we had a compelling history to tell. The program's experts showed us how to back it up and equipped us with tools to make our case.
Our new application underscores national data that shows people, especially families with children, living close to expressways experience poor lung health, including asthma, pulmonary disease, and reduced lung-function growth among young people. Additional research has shown increased rates of heart problems as a result of air pollution sourced from roadways. We also know that property facing or adjacent to expressways experience reduced property values. Bloomberg Philanthropies, by forming a coalition of national charitable organizations and civic groups including the Ballmer Group, Emerson Collective, Ford Foundation, The Kresge Foundation, The U.S. Conference of Mayors, National League of Cities, Results for America and more, has leveled the playing field for localities lacking armies of grant writers, lawyers, and statisticians — like ours. In addition to bringing together the support and specialists, the program also connects mayors representing municipalities of all sizes with federal agency heads overseeing these programs, as well as with each other. Now, Lansing is applying for a $1.3 million grant to seek community views and design corrective options. Our preference would be a cap, or deck, over a portion of I-496 to connect those isolated blocks to the rest of the city with parks, housing, even a memorial recognizing how a Black community was separated.
The Historical Society of Greater Lansing has collected oral histories from current and former residents. We want those voices to be heard. Just six months ago we released "They Even Took the Dirt", a documentary about that dislocation.
Lansing is a city of 113,000; one out of four of our residents is Black. This federal grant is written for our community's experience. But we're not alone. The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 displaced more than 475,000 households across the country, most of them in communities of color.
We can't rebuild what has been destroyed. But we can still correct a wrong. And like that third grader years ago bouncing a ball at the Main Street School, we'll succeed if we persist. If we can reconnect communities, we can begin to unite a nation.
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/opinion/contributors/2024/03/07/i-496-lansing-expressway-infrastructure-interstate-federal-grant/72698665007/
Dear Mayor of Lansing,
Your idea has merit.
But perhaps you should have brought this proposal up *before* we spent $70M to tear down and replace the whole freeway last year.
Please call us back in 50 years when the Olds is due for another overhaul.
Sincerely,
The MDOT budget folks
What does MDOT have to do with a federal grant? Also, how does this cap-and-cover proposal affect the recent roadwork on I-496?
SM-G991U
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iVjUth1j8Ce6prVM9
Is this the eastern terminus of US 12?
I noticed no signage indicating that it begins or ends here like nearby M-85 has both a beginning and End assembly.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EqzXLcYHGSseaRPU9
I'm also guessing that M-85 used to continue one block further to end at the Square which also allowed US 25, once upon a time, to continue through the Square.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2024, 01:49:04 PM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iVjUth1j8Ce6prVM9
Is this the eastern terminus of US 12?
I noticed no signage indicating that it begins or ends here like nearby M-85 has both a beginning and End assembly.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EqzXLcYHGSseaRPU9
I'm also guessing that M-85 used to continue one block further to end at the Square which also allowed US 25, once upon a time, to continue through the Square.
US-12 ends at Cass Avenue a few blocks west of there. US-25 looped around the park and onto Cadillac Square to connect to Randolph and onto Gratiot.
It would have been nice to have an End US 12 sign at the Cass Ave./Michigan Ave. intersection. Instead, the first US 12 West sign is a short distance past the 3rd Ave./Michigan Ave. intersection (a little west of the Gen. Thaddeus Kosciuszko Statue). The last US 12 East sign is just east of the Michigan Ave./John Lodge Service Dr./Sixth St. intersection (just over the median of the M-10 John C. Lodge Freeway).
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 13, 2024, 02:24:02 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2024, 01:49:04 PM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iVjUth1j8Ce6prVM9
Is this the eastern terminus of US 12?
I noticed no signage indicating that it begins or ends here like nearby M-85 has both a beginning and End assembly.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EqzXLcYHGSseaRPU9
I'm also guessing that M-85 used to continue one block further to end at the Square which also allowed US 25, once upon a time, to continue through the Square.
US-12 ends at Cass Avenue a few blocks west of there. US-25 looped around the park and onto Cadillac Square to connect to Randolph and onto Gratiot.
So US 12 got truncated. I know originally US 10, 12, 16, and 112 all ended at Cadillac Square at one time. I don't know about jurisdiction with MDOT and the City of Detroit, but I'm guessing that state maintenance stops at Cass for the city to end it there and prior to the truncation MDOT maintained it all to the square.
Should a 'lid' be built over I-75 in Detroit? Grants will fund a study of the feasibility.(https://s3-rd-prod.crainsdetroit.com/styles/1024x512/s3/I-75%20lid.jpg)
QuoteNearly $4.3 million in federal grants and private money will fund a study of the feasibility of putting a lid, or cap, over a portion of Interstate 75 in downtown Detroit to connect and beautify the area — potentially with a park or other green space above the sunken trench of concrete.
One award, which was announced Wednesday by the U.S. Department of Transportation, is designated for the Downtown Detroit Partnership, whose application was backed by the state Department of Transportation. The I-75 "overbuild" planning project will conduct community engagement and analyze building a deck over the freeway to reconnect neighborhoods to the north, Midtown and Brush Park, with downtown.
The announcement is the latest boost for the concept, which comes amid a plan to raise nearby I-375 to street level and convert it to a six-lane boulevard. Detroit got a $1.9 million grant, backed by U.S. Sen. Gary Peters, to study the capping idea under a spending bill signed last week by President Joe Biden.
And the developers of The District Detroit, Olympia Development of Michigan and The Related Cos., agreed to contribute a $400,000 match to the Downtown Detroit Partnership as part of tax incentives and a community benefits agreement that were approved roughly a year ago.
"The interesting thing about the cap is not only does it really connect the two sections of our downtown, but it also provides for some great public space on top of the cap," Downtown Detroit Partnership CEO Eric Larson said. "Think about what could be, depending on the size of the cap, a very significant public space or park that becomes a community asset. We'll be doing a lot of studies around that. We don't have any predetermined conclusions. And that's why this grant is so important." It is unknown how much the I-75 lid would cost. Talk of the cap sprung from talks about overhauling I-375 and picked up steam during the District Detroit community benefits process, Larson said, when questions were posed on how to restitch downtown and make it more attractive.
"There was an opportunity to not only think about I-375 but also how the overall transportation network in the downtown was coming together. There is a significant amount of investment over the next 10 years that's going to be required by MDOT and the city. When we make those investments, what do we do to make sure that they are not only smart but also long-term? And 75 came into focus," he said.
Asked how big the lid could be, Larson said it depends. It could range from 3 or 4 acres to "significantly larger" if it covered the entire east-west span downtown, he said, pointing to the 7.8-mile Big Dig project in Boston and the 5.2-acre Klyde Warren Park in Dallas.
The "deck park," which opened in 2012, was built over a recessed eight-lane freeway. The $110 million project had $56.7 million in government funding, with the rest coming from donations to a foundation.
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/i-75-could-be-capped-downtown-detroit
The Fisher Freeway between Interstate 96 and where Interstate 75 turns north onto the Walter P. Chrysler Freeway would be the best locations to build caps over the Interstate 75 freeway downtown. Maybe the caps would also make the freeways seem like less of a barrier to the surrounding neighborhoods.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2024, 01:12:07 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 13, 2024, 02:24:02 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2024, 01:49:04 PM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iVjUth1j8Ce6prVM9
Is this the eastern terminus of US 12?
I noticed no signage indicating that it begins or ends here like nearby M-85 has both a beginning and End assembly.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EqzXLcYHGSseaRPU9
I'm also guessing that M-85 used to continue one block further to end at the Square which also allowed US 25, once upon a time, to continue through the Square.
US-12 ends at Cass Avenue a few blocks west of there. US-25 looped around the park and onto Cadillac Square to connect to Randolph and onto Gratiot.
So US 12 got truncated. I know originally US 10, 12, 16, and 112 all ended at Cadillac Square at one time. I don't know about jurisdiction with MDOT and the City of Detroit, but I'm guessing that state maintenance stops at Cass for the city to end it there and prior to the truncation MDOT maintained it all to the square.
By a few blocks yeah. All of the state trunklines end in random spots downtown Like M-1, M-3, M-5, US-12, M-85 all end at a random intersection downtown. None of them serve Cadillac Square at the present time.
MDOT has launched a study of the I-75 corridor between Square Lake Rd in Oakland County and U.S.23 in Genessee County. The study will determine what short-, mid- and long-term solutions are needed for the corridor. Personally, I would love to see the M-59/I-75 interchange rebuilt with flyovers and I-75 widened to 8 lanes between Josyln Rd and U.S. 23.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/additional-studies/i-75-corridor-study
I think the US 24/Dixie Hwy. interchange (Exit 93) should be reconstructed to eliminate the excessive space between the northbound and southbound lanes. I would make the reconstructed interchange itself either a diamond interchange, a single-point urban interchange, or a diverging-diamond interchange, depending on the traffic demands for the interchange. The Saginaw Rd./Dixie Hwy. interchange (Exit 106) should also be reconfigured to eliminate all left-handed exit and entrance ramps.
Quote from: afguy on March 28, 2024, 09:04:50 PMMDOT has launched a study of the I-75 corridor between Square Lake Rd in Oakland County and U.S.23 in Genessee County. The study will determine what short-, mid- and long-term solutions are needed for the corridor. Personally, I would love to see the M-59/I-75 interchange rebuilt with flyovers and I-75 widened to 8 lanes between Josyln Rd and U.S. 23.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/additional-studies/i-75-corridor-study
M-59 interchange obviously needs serious fixing to eliminate the weaving and less than adequate acceleration lanes.
Both interchanges with Dixie Highway need to be completely redesigned to get rid of the left hand entrances. Especially the dangerous one on the limited sight hill from exit 93 going onto NB I-75.
M-15, Sashabaw, Josyln, Baldwin, and University/CTC exits have been re-engineered over the past 20 years so are good, IMO.
It might be time to add in a Davisburg interchange in the huge reserved space between the two rest areas as the Oakland county segment of I-275 was cancelled over thirty years ago.
Obviously all of it needs to be expanded to four lanes for the exact same reason.
So I was all for giving my input for that study, except it turns out that the webpage is following what has become the new MDOT tradition in that it is both detail-less and wholly untransparent.
Quote from: afguy on March 28, 2024, 09:04:50 PMMDOT has launched a study of the I-75 corridor between Square Lake Rd in Oakland County and U.S.23 in Genessee County. The study will determine what short-, mid- and long-term solutions are needed for the corridor. Personally, I would love to see the M-59/I-75 interchange rebuilt with flyovers and I-75 widened to 8 lanes between Josyln Rd and U.S. 23.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/additional-studies/i-75-corridor-study
Is there any economically possible way for there to be a direct connection/feed between US 23 and I-475?
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on March 29, 2024, 01:02:57 PMQuote from: afguy on March 28, 2024, 09:04:50 PMMDOT has launched a study of the I-75 corridor between Square Lake Rd in Oakland County and U.S.23 in Genessee County. The study will determine what short-, mid- and long-term solutions are needed for the corridor. Personally, I would love to see the M-59/I-75 interchange rebuilt with flyovers and I-75 widened to 8 lanes between Josyln Rd and U.S. 23.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/studies/additional-studies/i-75-corridor-study
Is there any economically possible way for there to be a direct connection/feed between US 23 and I-475?
Mike
Genesee County proposed to MDOT that they should be connected years ago. There is a lot of development in between now and an apartment complex sits directly south of where I-475 ends as well as other homes and subdivisons in the area.
Is it fair to say that MDOT botched eclipse preparation by failing to suspend the lane reductions on I-75 in the Monroe area? As many viewers from the Detroit area headed south to Toledo, the jams approaching the lane closures were 10+ miles long and even persisted throughout the eclipse, potentially forcing some travelers to miss out on the experience due to being stuck in traffic.
Quote from: webny99 on April 09, 2024, 09:07:09 PMIs it fair to say that MDOT botched eclipse preparation by failing to suspend the lane reductions on I-75 in the Monroe area? As many viewers from the Detroit area headed south to Toledo, the jams approaching the lane closures were 10+ miles long and even persisted throughout the eclipse, potentially forcing some travelers to miss out on the experience due to being stuck in traffic.
No, it's not fair to say. This isn't an overnight or weekend project that could have been rescheduled to another week. This is a season-long complete reconstruction of the southbound lanes, with two-way traffic sharing the northbound lanes. They can't magically make the northbound carriageway wider or make new pavement appear on the southbound carriageway at the snap of a finger to accommodate a one-day event. And they couldn't wait until now to begin the project; there wouldn't be enough time before winter to finish.
This wasn't any different than traffic jams causing people to arrive late to sold-out sports events and rock concerts. Road capacities are what they are, and the lane closures here were no surprise to anyone who bothered to look at MI Drive or another traffic map ahead of time.
Quote from: webny99 on April 09, 2024, 09:07:09 PMIs it fair to say that MDOT botched eclipse preparation by failing to suspend the lane reductions on I-75 in the Monroe area? As many viewers from the Detroit area headed south to Toledo, the jams approaching the lane closures were 10+ miles long and even persisted throughout the eclipse, potentially forcing some travelers to miss out on the experience due to being stuck in traffic.
I don't think so. That construction is going to be there all summer.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 10, 2024, 10:05:44 AMQuote from: webny99 on April 09, 2024, 09:07:09 PMIs it fair to say that MDOT botched eclipse preparation by failing to suspend the lane reductions on I-75 in the Monroe area? As many viewers from the Detroit area headed south to Toledo, the jams approaching the lane closures were 10+ miles long and even persisted throughout the eclipse, potentially forcing some travelers to miss out on the experience due to being stuck in traffic.
No, it's not fair to say. This isn't an overnight or weekend project that could have been rescheduled to another week. This is a season-long complete reconstruction of the southbound lanes, with two-way traffic sharing the northbound lanes. They can't magically make the northbound carriageway wider or make new pavement appear on the southbound carriageway at the snap of a finger to accommodate a one-day event. And they couldn't wait until now to begin the project; there wouldn't be enough time before winter to finish.
This wasn't any different than traffic jams causing people to arrive late to sold-out sports events and rock concerts. Road capacities are what they are, and the lane closures here were no surprise to anyone who bothered to look at MI Drive or another traffic map ahead of time.
Got it, thank you for clarifying. I was not aware of what was involved in the project, some things can be suspended but a full depth reconstruction obviously cannot.
I am also from upstate NY where there is no such thing as a six lane rural freeway (well at least outside of the Northway), so the concept of there being lane reductions when both directions are sharing a carriageway never occurred to me. The Thruway always maintains four lanes in this situation, and most NYSDOT projects use temporary lane closures rather than shared carriageways.
Quote from: webny99 on April 10, 2024, 10:58:58 AMI am also from upstate NY where there is no such thing as a six lane rural freeway (well at least outside of the Northway), so the concept of there being lane reductions when both directions are sharing a carriageway never occurred to me. The Thruway always maintains four lanes in this situation, and most NYSDOT projects use temporary lane closures rather than shared carriageways.
That type of work zone configuration used to be more common. Then, two things happened:
1. Money got scarce and conditions started rapidly declining during the Great Recession, so NYSDOT implemented its "preservation first" program, dedicating the vast majority of money for maintenance/preservation activities, and only a small fraction remaining for renewal/expansion, and most of
that gets spent on bridge replacements (the worst that can happen to pavement is it gets bumpy, but if a bridge fails, people could die). As such, highway reconstructions and whatnot are a lot less common than they were just 20 years ago here. This is also why the I-86 effort was put on ice for a long time.
2. Governor Cuomo got stuck in a traffic jam on I-87 approaching the Twin Bridges and implemented "driver's first", directing NYSDOT to do everything possible to minimize disruption to motorists even if project costs significantly increased as a result.
(personal opinion)
Quote from: vdeane on April 10, 2024, 12:57:43 PM2. Governor Cuomo got stuck in a traffic jam on I-87 approaching the Twin Bridges and implemented "driver's first", directing NYSDOT to do everything possible to minimize disruption to motorists even if project costs significantly increased as a result.
(personal opinion)
From a motorist perspective, I would say it has actually worked to some degree. It's extremely rare to encounter multi-lane closures in NY, and most single lane closures are manageable - either on rural highways where volumes are low enough to prevent long backups (like sections of I-88 and I-390 last season), or short-term hourly/daily closures while maintaining lanes for the majority of the project (like I-190 on Grand Island and I-490 at Marsh Rd a few years back).
Why are MDOT traffic cameras so dogshit online? I heard someone say the cameras look MUCH better in the control room, but online are limited to 240p with a picture every 30 seconds!!! Will the quality ever be improved? Minneapolis live cameras look amazing.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on April 11, 2024, 07:30:45 PMWhy are MDOT traffic cameras so dogshit online? I heard someone say the cameras look MUCH better in the control room, but online are limited to 240p with a picture every 30 seconds!!! Will the quality ever be improved? Minneapolis live cameras look amazing.
The required increase in bandwidth to bump to 480p or 720p is exponential, and MDOT probably isn't set up to handle that. It would be nice, though.
Double-barreled action on I-75 around mile marker 166.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240413/438af5555606960a49e9f7dfea794d26.jpg)
What's the highest speed someone has blown past a state trooper without getting pulled over? I'm always driving 80mph in a 70 and drove by atleast 7 michigan cops now without a problem. I know they acknowledged that everyone is driving 80mph anyway back when they increased some highways to 75mph, which was supposed to be 80mph.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on April 11, 2024, 07:30:45 PMWhy are MDOT traffic cameras so dogshit online? I heard someone say the cameras look MUCH better in the control room, but online are limited to 240p with a picture every 30 seconds!!! Will the quality ever be improved? Minneapolis live cameras look amazing.
Don't need higher quality to see traffic conditions, which is the purpose of the things. I'd be happy if they consistently showed images (I often get a "stream not available" message, especially in construction zones) and were all aimed correctly.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on April 14, 2024, 08:12:48 PMWhat's the highest speed someone has blown past a state trooper without getting pulled over? I'm always driving 80mph in a 70 and drove by atleast 7 michigan cops now without a problem. I know they acknowledged that everyone is driving 80mph anyway back when they increased some highways to 75mph, which was supposed to be 80mph.
MSP generally doesn't bother until 11 over. But if they're going to the trouble of pulling you over, they're generally going to write you a ticket.
Also note that your car speedometer may not be perfectly accurate, and you may be driving 7 or 8 over. Or you're doing 12 over and you just got lucky.
County sheriff deputies and municipal police also patrol the freeways and may not follow MSP standard operating practice.
I keep my cruise set to 8 over and they don't bother me.
SM-G991U
Quote from: michiganguy123 on April 14, 2024, 08:12:48 PMWhat's the highest speed someone has blown past a state trooper without getting pulled over?
I *have* done 85 in a 70 and had MSP *try* to pull me over. It was just before an exit where the road went downhill out of sight of the officer. I took the exit. The trooper didn't. My driving record didn't get more points on it that day.
SM-G991U
I was doing 85 in a 70 zone going SB on I-75 and noticed a state trooper slowing down on the NB side to turn around so I thought he would have been after me which he probably was but I noticed a long line of traffic at exit 93 and went up the shoulder of the ramp made a right on Dixie and saw the cop fly by going SB on I-75. I thought welp I'm not getting back on the highway for a minute. I noticed a Farmer Jack (that's how long ago this was) went in there and acted like I was grocery shopping for a minute then left and took another route to get back to I-75 I can't remember off the top of my head which way I went though.