This is true? - Geographic oddities that defy conventional wisdom

[ghYHZ]

The northern tip of Maine is further south than the 49th parallel; the border between Canada and the US from Minnesota to Washington.

More than half the Island of Newfoundland is below the 49th.

Gander International Airport is at 48.9. I remember reading that when all those 38 widebody aircraft were diverted there on 9-11.....one of the passenger interviewed thought it was so 'cool' to be able to get ice cream so close to the north pole. He had been closer to the north pole when he left London (at 51.5) 5 hrs earlier.....and really not that close at all!

[michravera]

The northern tip of Maine is further south than the 49th parallel; the border between Canada and the US from Minnesota to Washington.

More than half the Island of Newfoundland is below the 49th.

Gander International Airport is at 48.9. I remember reading that when all those 38 widebody aircraft were diverted there on 9-11.....one of the passenger interviewed thought it was so 'cool' to be able to get ice cream so close to the north pole. He had been closer to the north pole when he left London (at 51.5) 5 hrs earlier.....and really not that close at all!

Yeah. People don't get that basically the entire European continent lies north of San Francisco and Washington, DC (and, for that matter, Seoul). Southampton is a bit north of Vancouver. That means that the entire island of Great Britain is north of the 48 contiguous United States.

[hbelkins]

A while ago there was also a proposal to consolidate the City of Syracuse and Onondaga County.

Wouldn't every single town in the county have had to agree?

They didn't in Jefferson County, Ky. The big city of Louisville and some of the smaller incorporated cities merged with Jefferson County, but there are still a number of smaller, independent cities that have their own governments.

I don't know how the Louisville merger was set up, but Lexington and Fayette County were the first two governments to merge in Kentucky. The city became the dominant government. The mayor and the city council have all the powers. There's still a county government structure -- a county judge-executive and a fiscal court -- but it has limited powers. And the Fayette County sheriff's office has limited law enforcement authority when compared to the Lexington police department.

Louisville has the mayor and council, but I don't know if there's still a fiscal court and a CJE for Jefferson County.

[hotdogPi]

A while ago there was also a proposal to consolidate the City of Syracuse and Onondaga County.

Wouldn't every single town in the county have had to agree?

They didn't in Jefferson County, Ky. The big city of Louisville and some of the smaller incorporated cities merged with Jefferson County, but there are still a number of smaller, independent cities that have their own governments.

I don't know how the Louisville merger was set up, but Lexington and Fayette County were the first two governments to merge in Kentucky. The city became the dominant government. The mayor and the city council have all the powers. There's still a county government structure -- a county judge-executive and a fiscal court -- but it has limited powers. And the Fayette County sheriff's office has limited law enforcement authority when compared to the Lexington police department.

Louisville has the mayor and council, but I don't know if there's still a fiscal court and a CJE for Jefferson County.

New York has no unincorporated space. If the towns were left intact, the so-called merger would do absolutely nothing.

[Dirt Roads]

In most of these types of city-county consolidations (or in the case of Virginia, collapse of an independent city status), the city experiences a significant decline in population, economy and/or tax base such that the city cannot afford to provide sufficient police and emergency services.  In many states, the counties are obligated by law to provide to such services. 

That's strange; I always assumed it was the opposite (i.e. city does well enough that there's no need for the county any longer). There's discussions about folding Oklahoma County into Oklahoma City every so often because so much of Oklahoma County is in the limits of either OKC or one of its suburbs that maintaining the county government is perceived as being a waste of money.

You're notion is also correct.  In cases like Oklahoma City and Jacksonville, the desire to curb what I would call "hodge-podge annexation" of continuous dense development along the outskirts of a growing city often leads to one massive consolidation.  What happened in Butte, Montana resulted in a city-county merger.  When the same thing happened in South Boston, Virginia, the independent city simply reverted back to a town status which allowed the Halifax County to take over emergency services (the town still retained a police force).  There are several others in Virginia that have also downgraded.

Which reminds me.  I grew up near two formerly incorporated towns in West Virginia that are technically no longer on the map.  The town of Mount Vernon was located adjacent what is now the Teays Valley exit of I-64 (WV-34/Exit 39).   The town of Scary was located just south of the St. Albans exit (WV-817/Exit 44).  The unincorporated area of Scott Depot now covers everything in between.  Some maps may still show the placename Scary, but it doesn't officially exist.  Mt. Vernon never had a post office, and the one for Scary closed in 1931.

[JayhawkCO]

Which reminds me.  I grew up near two formerly incorporated towns in West Virginia that are technically no longer on the map.  The town of Mount Vernon was located adjacent what is now the Teays Valley exit of I-64 (WV-34/Exit 39).   The town of Scary was located just south of the St. Albans exit (WV-817/Exit 44).  The unincorporated area of Scott Depot now covers everything in between.  Some maps may still show the placename Scary, but it doesn't officially exist.  Mt. Vernon never had a post office, and the one for Scary closed in 1931.

I grew up in an area called Etter, Minnesota.  Its post office closed in 1927.  My official address was Welch but I went to school in Hastings.

Chris

[CNGL-Leudimin]

Yeah. People don't get that basically the entire European continent lies north of San Francisco and Washington, DC (and, for that matter, Seoul).

I've been to Malaga, which is both in Europe and South of those three cities.

One I like: The 12 foot 4 (formerly 11 foot 8) bridge lies at about the same latitude as the Southernmost tip of the Iberian Peninsula. This also means the entirety of continental Europe lies North of the world-famous bridge (some Greek islands, such as Crete, lie further South).

[empirestate]

Yeah. People don't get that basically the entire European continent lies north of San Francisco and Washington, DC (and, for that matter, Seoul). Southampton is a bit north of Vancouver. That means that the entire island of Great Britain is north of the 48 contiguous United States.

Yes, and that's something I wasn't prepared for when I visited. I'd never considered post-10 p.m. sunsets to be a part of the British culture!

Wouldn't every single town in the county have had to agree?

They didn't in Jefferson County, Ky. The big city of Louisville and some of the smaller incorporated cities merged with Jefferson County, but there are still a number of smaller, independent cities that have their own governments.

New York has no unincorporated space. If the towns were left intact, the so-called merger would do absolutely nothing.

There has also been talk of similar consolidations in both Erie and Monroe counties. I really don't have a firm recollection of the details, but I believe the arrangement would have been similar to a watered-down version of Louisville/Jefferson. The city and town governments would have merged administratively and operationally, but not necessarily geographically–the idea, I think, was more about having the same personnel do the same work from the same offices that now involve duplicates of all those things.

I get the feeling this has since fallen out of vogue, and we're now much more hepped up on village dissolutions.

[kkt]

Here is a cool video of Canada's population is further south than some states in the USA.

Does he actually talk that fast, or is it speeded up somehow?  It gives me a headache.

[Dirt Roads]

A while ago there was also a proposal to consolidate the City of Syracuse and Onondaga County.

Wouldn't every single town in the county have had to agree?

In most states, incorporated cities/towns/villages/boroughs still have the rights (or legal capability) to remain incorporated.  In the case of Butte, Montana there is still one independent town (Walkerville) that chose to remain incorporated and therefore separate.  In the case of Jacksonville, Florida there are four municipal entities within the boundary of Duval County that remain independent (Baldwin, Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach and Jacksonville Beach).  I believe that all four of these utilize a variety of Duval County services, and I can't help but think that the small town of Walkerville does the same with Butte-Silver Bow.  Atlantic Beach has actually annexed parts of Jacksonville twice since the city-county consolidation.

In an interesting twist, since Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach and Jacksonville Beach are at the edge of the county (duh), any of them could become independent cities themselves and not be considered "remaining separate".

[hotdogPi]

A while ago there was also a proposal to consolidate the City of Syracuse and Onondaga County.

Wouldn't every single town in the county have had to agree?

In most states, incorporated cities/towns/villages/boroughs still have the rights (or legal capability) to remain incorporated.  In the case of Butte, Montana there is still one independent town (Walkerville) that chose to remain incorporated and therefore separate.  In the case of Jacksonville, Florida there are four municipal entities within the boundary of Duval County that remain independent (Baldwin, Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach and Jacksonville Beach).  I believe that all four of these utilize a variety of Duval County services, and I can't help but think that the small town of Walkerville does the same with Butte-Silver Bow.  Atlantic Beach has actually annexed parts of Jacksonville twice since the city-county consolidation.

In an interesting twist, since Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach and Jacksonville Beach are at the edge of the county (duh), any of them could become independent cities themselves and not be considered "remaining separate".

In New York, every square inch of land is part of a city or town. Annexing is impossible.

[NWI_Irish96]

Lake County, Indiana, borders both a county with a population over 5 million (Cook, IL) and one with a population under 15,000 (Newton, IN).

[JayhawkCO]

Lake County, Indiana, borders both a county with a population over 5 million (Cook, IL) and one with a population under 15,000 (Newton, IN).

In a similar vein, the most populous county in Colorado is not in the most populous metro area.  El Paso County surpassed Denver County.

[ran4sh]

Yeah. People don't get that basically the entire European continent lies north of San Francisco and Washington, DC (and, for that matter, Seoul).

I've been to Malaga, which is both in Europe and South of those three cities.

One I like: The 12 foot 4 (formerly 11 foot 8) bridge lies at about the same latitude as the Southernmost tip of the Iberian Peninsula. This also means the entirety of continental Europe lies North of the world-famous bridge (some Greek islands, such as Crete, lie further South).

It's interesting that "conventional" wisdom says that the US is the same latitude as Europe. I've always thought of that as being ignorant, since it's clear that Europe is farther north than the US.

[Bruce]

Lake County, Indiana, borders both a county with a population over 5 million (Cook, IL) and one with a population under 15,000 (Newton, IN).

Decided to look around and see what are WA's starkest population differences between counties with an intermediate:

King (2.3 million) borders Chelan, which borders Douglas (42,938)

In fact, King County also borders Kittitas County, which is only slightly bigger (44,337).

Clark (503,311) borders Cowlitz, which borders Wahkiakum (4,422)

[KCRoadFan]

About those consolidated city-counties - I know that in my metro, KCK and Wyandotte County have what's called the "Unified Government". Where does that leave the town of Bonner Springs, which is largely within Wyandotte County? I believe it is still a separate municipal entity.

[hotdogPi]

It's interesting that "conventional" wisdom says that the US is the same latitude as Europe. I've always thought of that as being ignorant, since it's clear that Europe is farther north than the US.

I think of my location as being in line with Europe. However, that's because I'm between 42°N and 43°N, meaning this doesn't apply to much of the US.

[webny99]

It's interesting that "conventional" wisdom says that the US is the same latitude as Europe. I've always thought of that as being ignorant, since it's clear that Europe is farther north than the US.

I think of my location as being in line with Europe. However, that's because I'm between 42°N and 43°N, meaning this doesn't apply to much of the US.

I'm at a similar latitude to you, maybe slightly north, and I tend to think the same. Looking at it a bit more closely, my view is maybe slightly off-kilter since I know the UK and Scandanavia are north of us, but I tend to think I'm in line with France, not Spain. Climate/weather patterns probably influence our perceptions as well, since Europe is generally milder despite its latitude.

[Bruce]

I'm just about on the 48th parallel, which cuts across southern Germany (coincidentally where my ancestors originated from), Austria, Hundary, Slovakia, Ukraine, and Mongolia. It gets really close to Vienna and Bratislava, too.

[andrepoiy]

In Ontario, I think the largest population disparity would be the City of Ottawa (it's not part of a county) and Lanark County pop 900k and 59k respectively

[bwana39]

Texarkana is closer to Chicago (794 mi), Indianapolis (725 mi) , Albert Lea MN (810 mi), Tallahassee (721 mi), Cincinnati(758 mi),  Asheville NC (783 mi), Abbeville SC(772 mi), Bristol VA (779 mi), Beresford SD (799), Janesville WI (809 mi) , Trinidad CO (727 mi), and  Albuquerque (781 mi) than to El Paso (814 mi).  West Virginia is just a few miles farther. This skips the states you pass through to get to these places; Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Iowa, Missouri, Tennessee, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, and Nebraska.

You have to force the map to follow US-82 from Texarkana to Tuscaloosa to make it less to SC. There really is not a closer route to El Paso than the primary route.

From Orange TX to El Paso (844 miles) is farther than the Atlantic ocean at Jacksonville FL (778 miles ) from Orange.

The Atlantic Ocean at Tybee Island SC (833 mi) is less than 35 miles farther from Waskom than El Paso (801 miles).

[Chris]

Climate/weather patterns probably influence our perceptions as well, since Europe is generally milder despite its latitude.

The Netherlands isn't usually considered to be a very northern country by European standards, yet it's at the same latitude as Edmonton, Alberta. But during some winters the temperature only barely drops below freezing.

The northernmost Mediterranean-like summer climate in Europe is probably in South Tyrol (Italy), which is at the same latitude as North Dakota. Palm trees grow there. Though palm trees are also known to survive along the north coast of Brittany or the south coast of England, mostly due to the mild winters.

An interesting thing I did was driving down to Andalusia, Spain. The southern tip of Andalusia is in fact a bit farther south than Algiers or Tunis. Tarifa is at 36N, if you go east you'll end up in the northern reaches of the Sahara Desert. In the U.S., this latitude is in North Carolina or Oklahoma.

[webny99]

The Netherlands isn't usually considered to be a very northern country by European standards, yet it's at the same latitude as Edmonton, Alberta. But during some winters the temperature only barely drops below freezing.

That seems so strange because I think of Edmonton as being very far north, not just in terms of climate, but in terms of having basically no night in the summer and very short days in the winter. Yet the UK and Scandinavia have even more extreme daylight variation!

An interesting thing I did was driving down to Andalusia, Spain. The southern tip of Andalusia is in fact a bit farther south than Algiers or Tunis. Tarifa is at 36N, if you go east you'll end up in the northern reaches of the Sahara Desert. In the U.S., this latitude is in North Carolina or Oklahoma.

Yet somehow, this makes perfect sense to me!  Although you do have to go pretty far south to get to that point; most of Spain is more aligned with NJ/PA. In fact, parts of northern Spain are north of Cape Cod. Now that does seem off, so I guess part of it might just be that Spain and France are bigger countries than we give them credit for!

[michravera]

Lake County, Indiana, borders both a county with a population over 5 million (Cook, IL) and one with a population under 15,000 (Newton, IN).

Decided to look around and see what are WA's starkest population differences between counties with an intermediate:

King (2.3 million) borders Chelan, which borders Douglas (42,938)

In fact, King County also borders Kittitas County, which is only slightly bigger (44,337).

Clark (503,311) borders Cowlitz, which borders Wahkiakum (4,422)

It's going to be tough to beat Clark and Lincoln counties in Nevada. Wiki says 2.3 million for Clark and 4500 for Lincoln.

[jlam]

Off the top of my head I thought of Maricopa and La Paz Counties in Arizona. Maricopa County is at 4.4M, while La Paz is only at 16.5K.