California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways

[Max Rockatansky]

Also interesting to note that the same map shows a proposed routing of CA-180 across the Sierra to end at US-395 (then CA-7)

Aren't most of the routes that end in the Sierras like that? Like 190 and 168? Where the idea was started with just a line on a map in a planning office, but the execution was too difficult, contentious, and/or expensive to actually follow through with.
Something about disconnected routes really annoys me. They should just be renumbered.

Some were more realistic than others but none were cheap crossing the Sierra, now you have too much environmental red tape too.  190 probably has the best chance out of the split Sierra routes or once planned to be complete with Sherman Pass via J41.  The road is already surfaced but it's....dubious...  Another non-Sierra example is the planned route of 178 crossing the high mountains around Death Valley.

I actually drove the entire J41 or w/e it's called while on field study. Entered the Sierra around Kennedy Meadows, took another road that led to J41, there was also a detour south to CA-178. Surprisingly, the road was pretty good quality, well-paved and while not much in the way of shoulders, it was far from what I'd consider a dangerous road. I could realistically see all of it being part of CA-190, especially since these roads already exist, as opposed to whatever proposed alignment Caltrans has had on the books for decades.

With talk of a possible Olancha bypass, perhaps this is a catalyst to finally get a completed CA-190.

Yeah I know...total quality road with nothing really all that bad about it.  I know there is an "official" Caltrans adopted route that is much more straight across the Sierra but it really doesn't stand much chance.  I'm actually planning on hitting the overlook that views Mount Whitney this Friday maybe and doubling back to Barstow....looks like Mineral King is going to be a Wednesday thing.

[Max Rockatansky]

Also interesting to note that the same map shows a proposed routing of CA-180 across the Sierra to end at US-395 (then CA-7)

Aren't most of the routes that end in the Sierras like that? Like 190 and 168? Where the idea was started with just a line on a map in a planning office, but the execution was too difficult, contentious, and/or expensive to actually follow through with.
Something about disconnected routes really annoys me. They should just be renumbered.

Some were more realistic than others but none were cheap crossing the Sierra, now you have too much environmental red tape too.  190 probably has the best chance out of the split Sierra routes or once planned to be complete with Sherman Pass via J41.  The road is already surfaced but it's....dubious...  Another non-Sierra example is the planned route of 178 crossing the high mountains around Death Valley.

I actually drove the entire J41 or w/e it's called while on field study. Entered the Sierra around Kennedy Meadows, took another road that led to J41, there was also a detour south to CA-178. Surprisingly, the road was pretty good quality, well-paved and while not much in the way of shoulders, it was far from what I'd consider a dangerous road. I could realistically see all of it being part of CA-190, especially since these roads already exist, as opposed to whatever proposed alignment Caltrans has had on the books for decades.

With talk of a possible Olancha bypass, perhaps this is a catalyst to finally get a completed CA-190.

Then why would the present California state route 245 be so "crooked" with turns on the north side of the route?

Because there is a pretty tall climb from Badger to CA 180.  Towards the northern terminus of CA 245 you go above 5,000 relatively quickly near the end of the route.  There is no way to build a reasonable road with a low uphill grade in a straight shot.

[Quillz]

At this point, seems like Caltrans should simply take over maintenance of J41 and whatever else is already there. This would put CA-190's junction with US-395 at what is now the Nine Mile Canyon Road, quite a bit south of Olancha, but hardly an issue, I think. That's the only realistic way there will ever be a CA-190 extension, and even then, I strongly doubt this will ever occur.

[Max Rockatansky]

At this point, seems like Caltrans should simply take over maintenance of J41 and whatever else is already there. This would put CA-190's junction with US-395 at what is now the Nine Mile Canyon Road, quite a bit south of Olancha, but hardly an issue, I think. That's the only realistic way there will ever be a CA-190 extension, and even then, I strongly doubt this will ever occur.

I'd settle for a renumber of J41 to J190 along with renumbering some of those forest routes to the same designation.  Seems legit enough to imply the route to me..Florida the hell out of it

[coatimundi]

Caltrans doesn't want another Sierra route to plow, I'm sure.

[Max Rockatansky]

Caltrans doesn't want another Sierra route to plow, I'm sure.

True....but outside of I-80, US 50 and CA 88 it's not like they do anyways.  So basically Sherman Pass is just like 108, 4 and 120 in that regard already.  It's funny that they never dropped the official routing of CA 190 even though it will never happen.  Might be more viable for all weather though if it was ever built over Olancha or Haiwee Pass...I can't find anything published on their heights but Sherman is 9,200 feet above sea level.

[cahwyguy]

They probably don't want the maintenance in general. Any mountain route will be expensive to maintain, what with slip-outs, regular resurfacing, guardrail maintenance, mudslides, and such, all of which require SHOPP funding that is increasingly less there.

[Max Rockatansky]

They probably don't want the maintenance in general. Any mountain route will be expensive to maintain, what with slip-outs, regular resurfacing, guardrail maintenance, mudslides, and such, all of which require SHOPP funding that is increasingly less there.

Right and don't me wrong, I think the existing roadway over Sherman Pass is more than sufficient as a summer Sierra pass.  Seems like it would be a lot easier to just go to Inyo County and the Forest Service in Sequoia National Forest then ask them to throw up some FR190 and J190 signs then call it a day.  Wouldn't be too different than CA 59 becoming J59 north of Snelling.  Basically I go back to something like Florida which frequently does stuff like that maintaining State Route designations that cross over to county ones with the same route number.  Might be something worth considering in places with route relinquishment gaps, put it back on the counties.

[sparker]

Thought I'd pull this thread down off Sherman Pass (hope there's cel service up there) and back toward another weird-ass California state highway -- but staying, for the time being, east of the Sierra.  One of the most arrow-straight highways out there is CA 167, from US 395 to the Nevada border north of Mono Lake.  Besides its linearity, a couple of other things about this route are unusual.  Originally, it was a spur route of LRN 40, which comprised SSR (later CA) 120 from CA 108 east to the Yosemite Park boundary, and then from the Tioga Pass park boundary to US 395, plus the section from US 395 to US 6 (Benton Jct.).  About 1953 or so the "Pole Line" highway was added to the state highway system as an access road into Nevada (and the U.S. ordinance storage facility at Hawthorne, NV), connecting with (now) NV 359.  What is unusual is that the Division of Highways, rather than just picking the next number available (in the 200's by that time) for this route, designated it another section of LRN 40 -- as if they were planning to reroute SSR 120 onto that route rather than the 395-to-6 section, which featured regular winter closures.  Of course, the 1964 renumbering undid such a designation; in their pull-it-out-of-a-hat '64 style, they renumbered it as CA 167. 

Recently the route has been touted as part of the most efficient Los Angeles-to-Boise route for commercial and recreational traffic -- although it has not been included in the NHS; a STRAHNET route accomplishing the same function diverges from US 395 onto US 6 at Bishop, using that route to NV 360, which functions as a "cutoff" to north US 95, which backtracks into Hawthorne.  But there are more services along US 395 between Bishop and the CA 167 intersection; probably the reason the CA 167 alternative has gained popularity for regular drivers between L.A. and the Boise area.  I've driven the highway a couple of times -- while passing through a largely desolate area, it's a pretty nice overall drive (albeit needing some pavement work near the state line!). 

[Quillz]

I didn't know it was at one point considered to be an extension of CA-120, that's very interesting. I've passed the route once, never driven on it. I do know you can see the route extend nearly 10 miles into the distance as a straight line.

[Max Rockatansky]

120 kind of worked out as is since the eastern terminus is at US 6.  Speaking of seeing forever, you have a decent view of 167 and US 395 from the top of the Mono Lake overlook....weird part of the state indeed:

[Quillz]

I've done several field trips out in the Mono Lake/Eastern Sierra area. Utilized CA-120 a lot. I'm actually surprised it's a road that doesn't get plowed in the winter, since it doesn't have any steep ascents or descents, no sharp curves, etc. It runs through a relatively flat area.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've done several field trips out in the Mono Lake/Eastern Sierra area. Utilized CA-120 a lot. I'm actually surprised it's a road that doesn't get plowed in the winter, since it doesn't have any steep ascents or descents, no sharp curves, etc. It runs through a relatively flat area.

Are you talking Tioga?  If that's the case that probably has to do with the Parks Service more than anything else.  I'm fairly certain the Park Service doesn't use road salt at all and just does the best they can with a plow.  If it was state maintained I would certainly think it would be somewhat viable to keep open given the terrain is so much more gentle than 108 and 4....both of those have 20% plus grades coming down the eastern slope.

[Quillz]

Are you talking Tioga?

No, the easternmost segment between 395 and 6.

[Max Rockatansky]

Are you talking Tioga?

No, the easternmost segment between 395 and 6.

No shit, they close that section?...wow that makes no sense at all.

[Quillz]

Are you talking Tioga?

No, the easternmost segment between 395 and 6.

No shit, they close that section?...wow that makes no sense at all.

Yes, it's often closed in the winter. I think the last few years it's been open due to a pretty warm winter, but I know some years, it does see some heavy snowfall. But like I said, it's a fairly simple segment to maintain, so I don't know why it wouldn't be.

[sparker]

Actually, CA 120 between 395 and 6, while a benign drive in the summer, is prone to severe snow drifts during the winter.  While the western end of this section sits at about 6800 foot altitude, and the eastern end at Benton Jct. is even lower at about 5700 feet, the center segment rises to about 8200 foot elevation -- higher than Conway Summit to the north on 395.  And the very lack of variation of the terrain around the highway contributes to heavy snow drifting during winter months -- there's not much in the way of steep hills for the snow to fall off -- it tends to stay packed up on the ground (and the highway); there's nothing stopping it from "piling on", so to speak.  Plowing would be pointless -- by the time the road was plowed from one end of the snowdrift area to the other, it would have been overtaken by more drifting in the plow's wake.  It's actually one of the later spring openings on a state highway in that area; the crews tend to wait until most of the pack has melted off before plowing it through.  The saving grace is that it takes a sizeable snowstorm to pack it up in the first place, so it's often late November or even early December before 120 is closed in that area. 

[coatimundi]

I seem to recall 120 at Sagehen Summit closed for a period this past winter, when all the other passes were also closed.
Tioga Pass isn't a matter of NPS' desire to not salt the roads - I don't believe they salt anywhere in California - but it's because of the danger of allowing throngs of snow-unready tourists up there. It's also the highest road pass in the Sierras, at almost 10,000', and going there just after opening, you can see how much snow it actually gets.

[Max Rockatansky]

I seem to recall 120 at Sagehen Summit closed for a period this past winter, when all the other passes were also closed.
Tioga Pass isn't a matter of NPS' desire to not salt the roads - I don't believe they salt anywhere in California - but it's because of the danger of allowing throngs of snow-unready tourists up there. It's also the highest road pass in the Sierras, at almost 10,000', and going there just after opening, you can see how much snow it actually gets.

It's not just California, it's basically every unit I've been to in the winter time.  I was in Utah a couple years back after a heavy blizzard and I was driving over a good 2-3 inch layer of compacted snow in Bryce, Arches and Canyonlands...probably should have used the chains in retrospect.  Even Great Basin had a ton of snow on that trip...for some reason Capitol Reef was snow free and Zion was way too low in elevation.  I've never seen salt at the Grand Canyon either which why I would speculate that they don't bother plowing the north rim drive or much of AZ 67 given the remoteness of the terrain.  And yes I'm sure they really don't want people up there that high during the winter when they average 15-20 feet of snow through the season, I'm just saying that it "could" be done probably a little easier than most people assume.  There seems to be this perception that Tioga Pass is a lot more of an ominous drive than it really is due to the height. 

But then again I encountered a snow storm on CA 140 earlier this year and the road was apparently salted even below 2,000 feet...so that was a thing.

And given that I haven't spent a ton of time near Mono Lake in the winter I would have assumed that it didn't receive much snow due to the obvious desert terrain....go figure. 

[sparker]

I lived in Hesperia, close to the north end of Cajon Pass, for a couple of years -- at 3500 foot elevation.  3 winters there, and we got snow each and every one of them -- mostly lasting for only a couple of days, but one year [2011] there were drifts blocking the main road into town for nearly a week before we got a bit of a warming and everything melted (causing some local flash flooding in washes).  The desert can indeed be deceiving in winter! 

[gonealookin]

Yesterday I had some extra time and had an opportunity to drive the western portion of CA 36, Fortuna to Red Bluff, about 140 miles, for the first time ever.  It took around 3 hours at what seemed like a fast pace, with the first 80 miles taking about 2 hours and then the rest going more quickly.  That offers quite a variety of scenery, from deep redwood forest and river canyons on the west side to high ridge views in the central portion to arid foothill scrublands in the eastern 40 miles or so.  The portion that's striped as a one-lane road goes for maybe 4 miles between the Bridgeville and Dinsmore dots on the map, though it's interrupted by a few short double-yellow center stripes.  Be aggressive about passing slower vehicles when you have a rare chance (though most drivers were good about yielding at turnouts and I did that a couple times myself) and don't dare take a passenger who's prone to carsickness.  Having now checked it off my list, it's unlikely I would ever be on that road again unless for some recreational destination back in that area; CA 299 or CA 20 are much more sensible choices for getting between the North Coast and the Sacramento Valley.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've driven all of 36 from Red Bluff to Susanville, that part I always thought was a placid nice mountain drive.  Funny, 299 is almost nothing but solid yellow lines with almost no turnouts...although there are some passing lanes east of Blue Lake.  There was actually a guy in an Accord that I had a hard time keeping up with...I was fairly certain he was going to wreck given how far he was pushing it. 

I've actually run into snow on CA 62 heading up to Yucca Valley which is about 3,300 feet above sea level itself.  In fact about the only place I haven't run into snow in any American desert is below 1,000 feet...had a pretty decent snow storm or two in Phoenix.  I was actually stranded in Willcox, AZ for a couple days due to a blizzard that had I-10 shut down completely in the state of New Mexico.  I'd rather be on something like 62 when the weather goes bad though....that must get ugly when people get caught off guard on Cajon with no chains.

[Quillz]

Yesterday I had some extra time and had an opportunity to drive the western portion of CA 36, Fortuna to Red Bluff, about 140 miles, for the first time ever.  It took around 3 hours at what seemed like a fast pace, with the first 80 miles taking about 2 hours and then the rest going more quickly.  That offers quite a variety of scenery, from deep redwood forest and river canyons on the west side to high ridge views in the central portion to arid foothill scrublands in the eastern 40 miles or so.  The portion that's striped as a one-lane road goes for maybe 4 miles between the Bridgeville and Dinsmore dots on the map, though it's interrupted by a few short double-yellow center stripes.  Be aggressive about passing slower vehicles when you have a rare chance (though most drivers were good about yielding at turnouts and I did that a couple times myself) and don't dare take a passenger who's prone to carsickness.  Having now checked it off my list, it's unlikely I would ever be on that road again unless for some recreational destination back in that area; CA 299 or CA 20 are much more sensible choices for getting between the North Coast and the Sacramento Valley.

While you're correct about CA-299, that is still one crazy drive between Arcata and Weaverville. I remember doing it during the summer, and I remember steep cliffs on both sides, and being boxed in briefly by big rigs. Beautiful road, but certainly one you've got to be very alert on.

[Max Rockatansky]

Speaking of good old CA 245...got a change to investigate a mystery that surfaced on a 1948 ACSC map that I found during the whole Mineral King Road thread.  Basically the map shows CA 65 ending at CA 180....but at Dunlap Road.  So essentially the map shows CA 180 actually continuing along what is now CA 245 north to Kings Canyon National Park:

http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/158724/Tulare+County+1948+Road+Map/

Basically if this map is accurate the terminus for CA 65 would have been on modern CA 245 left and Dunlap Road on right would have been CA 180 westbound:



The only thing that I could find addressing this terminus on cahighways was that CA 65 ended at CA 180:

"In 1934, Route 65 was signed along the route from Jct. Route 99 at Famoso to General Grant National Park (now Kings Canyon National Park) via Porterville. The original routing for Route 65 ran along present day Route 245 to Route 180. This was all LRN 129, defined in 1933."

Even if CA 65 went all the way north to where modern CA 180 is it technically would still be outside the Kings Canyon Park boundary.  So...question is this, that 1948 map accurate?  If so that's an even MORE twisted history with route numbers on what is now CA 245 with; 65, 69 and possibly 180 being signed along that route at one point before 1972.  For what it's worth I did drive Dunlap Road in it's entirety and it is pretty much what I would expect from any normal California state highway.  I don't think that I missed anything on the CA 180 stub...but it looks like it mostly talks of the freeway alignments east of 99.

[Quillz]

I'm a bit confused... Didn't CA-65 always end at CA-180 west of Kings Canyon? Every historic map I've got shows that, until CA-65 was eventually replaced by CA-69 and then CA-245.