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Author Topic: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI  (Read 2500 times)

BigOkie

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« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 12:01:28 PM by BigOkie »
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bugo

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2021, 02:55:42 PM »

And I thought they couldn't do anything to make Memorial even more annoying than it already is.

Will this be the first time a US highway ends at a Death Diamond?
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Ned Weasel

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2021, 04:31:11 PM »

And I thought they couldn't do anything to make Memorial even more annoying than it already is.

You're welcome to chime in with your better solution.

Quote
Will this be the first time a US highway ends at a Death Diamond?

I don't know what US highway ends there, but it certainly isn't US 64.
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Scott5114

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2021, 04:37:23 PM »

And I thought they couldn't do anything to make Memorial even more annoying than it already is.

You're welcome to chime in with your better solution.

A SPUI might work well here. Or failing that, maybe a loop ramp from WB OK-364 to southbound Memorial (carrying the route of US-64). Bugo would know the traffic flows in the area better than I, though. My one time using Memorial, I almost got in a wreck, so I don't have much higher of an opinion of it than he does.

I don't know what US highway ends there, but it certainly isn't US 64.

US-169 ends at that interchange (US-64 exits and OK-364 continues west on the mainline). If it's not the first US route to end at a DDI, it's probably the first to end at one from the freeway side.
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Ned Weasel

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2021, 05:04:33 PM »

US-169 ends at that interchange (US-64 exits and OK-364 continues west on the mainline).

I guess I never noticed because it would just make a lot more sense for it to end at the Creek Turnpike.
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Scott5114

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2021, 05:16:40 PM »

US-169 ends at that interchange (US-64 exits and OK-364 continues west on the mainline).

I guess I never noticed because it would just make a lot more sense for it to end at the Creek Turnpike.

The problem with that is, where exactly would you put it? The Creek Turnpike interchange is basically a TOTSO where the southbound Mingo Valley Expy. defaults onto the westbound Creek Turnpike and the eastbound Creek Turnpike defaults onto the northbound MVE. Then US-64 exits at Memorial and the westbound mainline becomes the westbound Creek Turnpike.

The most sensible place to put the end of US-169 would be at the interchange with the BA Expressway, where US-64 joins the MVE, but I'm guessing they have the useless concurrency in place so that all of the MVE will carry the same number.
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bugo

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2021, 06:21:49 PM »

You're welcome to chime in with your better solution.

A SPUI. A modified diamond. A 7 level stack.
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US 89

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2021, 06:38:42 PM »

DDIs are generally only a good idea if a high percentage of the traffic volumes on the cross street are turning onto or off of the freeway. They don't work well if you have a lot of cross street through traffic. I don't know how much traffic continues straight through this interchange on Memorial, but if those volumes are significant in any way I'd imagine some other design would work quite a bit better.

I say this because here in Utah, we have a DDI on SR 201 at Bangerter Highway (which is otherwise a high-grade expressway). As far as traffic goes the DDI might be a little better than the diamond that used to be there, but it still sucks to drive through.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 01:31:44 AM by US 89 »
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MightyMG

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2021, 09:29:08 PM »

I am skeptical of the DDI improving traffic flow on Memorial because there is a signal Oz Ed intersection about 800 feet to the south at 98th Street, and a signalized intersection about the same distance to the north of the interchange at 93rd street.  Then you have major intersections at 101st and 91st Streets as well. 

I think a three-level interchange with the thru traffic on Memorial going either above or below the existing interchange is a better solution, but ODOT probably cannot afford it.

Memorial really needs to be six lanes between I-244 and 121st Street, but again…. Funding.

Maybe I will be proven wrong and.signal timing makes the DDI work better than I expect it to.  We shall see.
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BigOkie

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2021, 09:46:10 AM »

I am skeptical of the DDI improving traffic flow on Memorial because there is a signal Oz Ed intersection about 800 feet to the south at 98th Street, and a signalized intersection about the same distance to the north of the interchange at 93rd street.  Then you have major intersections at 101st and 91st Streets as well. 

I think a three-level interchange with the thru traffic on Memorial going either above or below the existing interchange is a better solution, but ODOT probably cannot afford it.

Memorial really needs to be six lanes between I-244 and 121st Street, but again…. Funding.

Maybe I will be proven wrong and.signal timing makes the DDI work better than I expect it to.  We shall see.

Looking at the timeline, we won't really know until almost 2025...
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BigOkie

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2021, 09:50:45 AM »

DDIs are generally only a good idea if a high percentage of the traffic volumes on the cross street are turning onto or off of the freeway. They don't work well if you have a lot of cross street through traffic. I don't know how much traffic continues straight through this interchange on Memorial, but if those volumes are significant in any way I'd imagine some other design would work quite a bit better.

I say this because here in Utah, we have a DDI on SR 201 at Bangerter Highway (which is otherwise a high-grade expressway). As far as traffic goes the DDI might be a little better than the diamond that used to be there, but it still sucks to drive through.

As someone who lives in Tulsa but likely this won't affect me much (I live too far away from this to affect me on a daily basis, although would use this intersection from time to time) I do know that the majority of the traffic at this intersection is mainly in the morning (from Bixby on Memorial from the south) and the evening (where the westbound exit from the MVE gets crowded).

From the website I linked to above:

Quote
The proposed improvements will address the congestion that occurs on the westbound off-ramp and on northbound Memorial Drive accessing the eastbound on-ramp (to US-169).
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BigOkie

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2021, 10:03:18 AM »

And I thought they couldn't do anything to make Memorial even more annoying than it already is.

Will this be the first time a US highway ends at a Death Diamond?

Not quite sure how you surmise this will make this intersection worse.  The DDI the way it looks planned will add an extra entrance lane on the eastbound onramp and will be the type of interchange that takes the least amount of reconfiguration.  There really isn't a lot of through traffic from north to south on Memorial because most motorists get to that segment of Memorial by taking the southbound MVE to the Memorial exit anyway.  Same with south to north traffic; they'll get to their more northern locations via the entrance ramp to the MVE going east/north.  Will it be a pain while under construction?  That's obvious but you gotta breaks eggs to make omelettes, right?
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Scott5114

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2021, 11:45:44 AM »

Well, he didn't say worse, he said more annoying. Raised medians, for instance, improve safety by limiting points of conflict and definitely don't make the road worse, but they sure are annoying if the place you want to get to is blocked by one.
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Ned Weasel

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2021, 06:28:54 PM »

Well, he didn't say worse, he said more annoying. Raised medians, for instance, improve safety by limiting points of conflict and definitely don't make the road worse, but they sure are annoying if the place you want to get to is blocked by one.

Not once in my life have I ever found that annoying.
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Scott5114

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2021, 07:48:27 PM »

Well, he didn't say worse, he said more annoying. Raised medians, for instance, improve safety by limiting points of conflict and definitely don't make the road worse, but they sure are annoying if the place you want to get to is blocked by one.

Not once in my life have I ever found that annoying.

Eh, I've been annoyed by it. Not, like, mad about it, and I understand why it's there, but it is kind of annoying to have to backtrack.
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Bobby5280

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2021, 11:39:24 AM »

I think Memorial Road in Tulsa is considerably more annoying up near the junction with I-44 and the Broken Arrow Expressway (US-64). Going Eastbound (such as coming up from Lawton) and getting off I-44 to reach Memorial can be tricky for those who haven't done it before.

The main problem with Memorial down by the Creek Turnpike is all the traffic lights at so many intersections. A Diverging Diamond Interchange at the Creek Turnpike will do nothing to improve the situation. It could potentially make matters worse for thru traffic along Memorial. I guess some of it depends on how they can time the signals.

A SPUI would be preferable to a DDI since it does nothing to alter thru-traffic movement on the surface street and reduces the number of traffic signals in the interchange to just one big complex signal in the middle of the interchange. But a SPUI would cost more to build. And a SPUI generally requires a larger land footprint than a DDI. There isn't any extra land to spare for a SPUI in this location.
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bugo

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2021, 09:41:16 AM »

I live a few miles northwest of the Creek/Memorial interchange, and when I drive to Bixby, I stay on Sheridan as long as I can, then cut over to Memorial. It's only 2 lanes, but Memorial is hellish. I still say they should build a freeway or a turnpike from the eastern 64/169/Creek interchange due south, bypassing Bixby to the east and merging into existing US 64 a couple of miles east of the Leonard Curve. I can only imagine how bad 64/Memorial is going to be in 20 years.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2021, 05:08:22 PM »

While they are at it, can they add numbers to all of the unnumbered exits on the Creek Turnpike? I don't understand why they only numbered the exits from E. 51st Street South northward to Interstate 44.
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Scott5114

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Re: ODOT proposes retrofitting Creek Turnpike and Memorial Dr to DDI
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2021, 06:18:35 PM »

While they are at it, can they add numbers to all of the unnumbered exits on the Creek Turnpike? I don't understand why they only numbered the exits from E. 51st Street South northward to Interstate 44.

The Creek Turnpike was built in stages, and the portion with the numbered exits was the last section built. Don't know if there's any special reason why the rest of the turnpike never got exit numbers—it may just be that the thought's never occurred to them.
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