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Author Topic: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park  (Read 9656 times)

Ned Weasel

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Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« on: February 15, 2020, 11:29:16 PM »

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/officials-explore-tolls-to-help-fund-expansion-of-69-highway-in-overland-park

This seems like a more sensible way to do freeway widening.  But I still wish they would talk about putting a ramp meter on the northbound ramp from 119th Street, fixing the southbound left entrance from Blue Valley Parkway and the poorly signed lane drop at 135th Street, and finding a way to address the northbound weaving issues at the remaining inner loops of the cloverleaf at I-435.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2020, 02:35:10 AM »

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/officials-explore-tolls-to-help-fund-expansion-of-69-highway-in-overland-park

This seems like a more sensible way to do freeway widening.  But I still wish they would talk about putting a ramp meter on the northbound ramp from 119th Street, fixing the southbound left entrance from Blue Valley Parkway and the poorly signed lane drop at 135th Street, and finding a way to address the northbound weaving issues at the remaining inner loops of the cloverleaf at I-435.

Lexus lanes... doesn't do anything to relieve traffic, doesn't really do much for funding, but god does it line whatever private company they're outsourcing the public commons to.
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Scott5114

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2020, 05:10:08 AM »

I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.
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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2020, 12:44:17 PM »

I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2020, 01:25:28 PM »

I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
The section they are wanting to widen is currently only four lanes, two in each direction. One HOV lane and one normal lane would just make things worse.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2020, 01:33:03 PM »

I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
The section they are wanting to widen is currently only four lanes, two in each direction. One HOV lane and one normal lane would just make things worse.

How do you figure?  Just puts pressure on people to carpool.  There's places where freeways are two on a side and the left lane got turned HOV only.  Building for the change you want to see works.  Want less traffic?  Give people a reason to team up.
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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2020, 05:12:30 PM »

I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
The section they are wanting to widen is currently only four lanes, two in each direction. One HOV lane and one normal lane would just make things worse.

How do you figure?  Just puts pressure on people to carpool.  There's places where freeways are two on a side and the left lane got turned HOV only.  Building for the change you want to see works.  Want less traffic?  Give people a reason to team up.
This takes the ability to pass slower vehicles away from single drivers, which could hold up traffic from time to time. You could say that about super-2s, but in the section of the the planned widening the AADT jumps from 35k near 151st all the way up to 82.5k near I-435, so it can't afford to have that 50/50 split 24/7 (it's not exactly KC's busiest freeway, either). If widening was absolutely out of reach, A 50/50 split could happen, but it would have to be exclusively during the morning and evening commute times, when people would actually be carpooling. During all other times, the would-be HOV lane would be open to everyone.
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Scott5114

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2020, 03:49:06 AM »

People in Johnson County carpooling? Yeah, right. Don't you know they're important people with places to be?
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rte66man

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2020, 06:04:53 AM »

I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
The section they are wanting to widen is currently only four lanes, two in each direction. One HOV lane and one normal lane would just make things worse.

How do you figure?  Just puts pressure on people to carpool.  There's places where freeways are two on a side and the left lane got turned HOV only.  Building for the change you want to see works.  Want less traffic?  Give people a reason to team up.

A large percentage of people do not work at jobs that have a fixed schedule (i.e. 8 to 5). They don't really have another choice but to drive themselves.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2020, 09:17:57 AM »

I would argue that HOV lanes with too many access points can cause more traffic congestion given the constant merging of left to right and vice versa of car pools. It surely slows down traffic on the mainlines. Iíve often thought traffic would flow better in CA if all carpools were removed and freeways restriped in some cases possibly being able to add two new GP lanes in each direction.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2020, 09:48:53 AM »

I would argue that HOV lanes with too many access points can cause more traffic congestion given the constant merging of left to right and vice versa of car pools. It surely slows down traffic on the mainlines. Iíve often thought traffic would flow better in CA if all carpools were removed and freeways restriped in some cases possibly being able to add two new GP lanes in each direction.

Maybe temporarily, but then people stop carpooling and you're back to square one, but with more cars.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2020, 10:06:50 AM »

I would argue that HOV lanes with too many access points can cause more traffic congestion given the constant merging of left to right and vice versa of car pools. It surely slows down traffic on the mainlines. Iíve often thought traffic would flow better in CA if all carpools were removed and freeways restriped in some cases possibly being able to add two new GP lanes in each direction.

Maybe temporarily, but then people stop carpooling and you're back to square one, but with more cars.
Perhaps but if we had better mass transit then this might not be as big of an issue. Some would be carpoolers would use transit instead if it was worth a damn.
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sprjus4

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2020, 10:13:47 AM »

HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

If the roadway is only currently 4 lanes, widen it to 2+1 each way to create a total of 6 lanes. In the future, plan to add a third general purpose lane each way to have an ultimate section of 3+1 each way.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2020, 10:18:39 AM »

HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

Not nearly as effective at reducing traffic as HOV lanes, since now you're not just rewarding altruism, you're also rewarding the most selfish behavior.  You'll just get fewer people carpooling.  Need an example?  Try the before and after on 635 in Dallas when it went from having HOV lanes to having HOT lanes.  Nobody carpools, and now nobody gets to move.
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sprjus4

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2020, 10:24:53 AM »

HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

Not nearly as effective at reducing traffic as HOV lanes, since now you're not just rewarding altruism, you're also rewarding the most selfish behavior.  You'll just get fewer people carpooling.  Need an example?  Try the before and after on 635 in Dallas when it went from having HOV lanes to having HOT lanes.  Nobody carpools, and now nobody gets to move.
On the contrary, Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads have had success with HOV to HO/T conversion during peak hours. More people use the HO/T lanes from when it previously HOV restricted, and congestion has eased -some- in the general purpose lanes. I suppose it depends on the region. Iím not too familiar with the commuting trends of Dallas-Fort Worth, so I cannot say much.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2020, 10:26:19 AM »

HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

Not nearly as effective at reducing traffic as HOV lanes, since now you're not just rewarding altruism, you're also rewarding the most selfish behavior.  You'll just get fewer people carpooling.  Need an example?  Try the before and after on 635 in Dallas when it went from having HOV lanes to having HOT lanes.  Nobody carpools, and now nobody gets to move.
On the contrary, Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads have had success with HOV to HO/T conversion. I suppose it depends on the region. Iím not too familiar with the commuting trends of Dallas-Fort Worth, so I cannot say much.

I strongly suspect "money talks" less and "bullshit walks" more the further away you get from DC.
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sprjus4

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2020, 10:37:05 AM »

HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

Not nearly as effective at reducing traffic as HOV lanes, since now you're not just rewarding altruism, you're also rewarding the most selfish behavior.  You'll just get fewer people carpooling.  Need an example?  Try the before and after on 635 in Dallas when it went from having HOV lanes to having HOT lanes.  Nobody carpools, and now nobody gets to move.
On the contrary, Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads have had success with HOV to HO/T conversion. I suppose it depends on the region. Iím not too familiar with the commuting trends of Dallas-Fort Worth, so I cannot say much.

I strongly suspect "money talks" less and "bullshit walks" more the further away you get from DC.
Hampton Roads is certainly not like DC when it comes to money and affordability. According to numbers from VDOT, once they converted the HOV lanes to HO/T lanes heading towards Naval Station Norfolk, IIRC around 90% of the usage was SOV not HOV. Congestion was decreased a decent amount and average speeds were increased on the general purpose lanes. The HOV lanes had been previously underutilized, now they are quite full during peak hours. The tolls are also kept at a low, reasonable rate, rarely spiking past $2 or $3 for the 7 mile stretch, compared to Northern Virginia where $30+ is common for a 30 mile stretch of I-95, and similar along the I-395 and I-495 stretches.

Northern Virginia also has a decent HOV ridership with carpools and slug lines, now extending all the way down to Fredericksburg.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2020, 06:36:26 PM »

If constructed, would these be the first stretch of toll lanes built in the Kansas City Metropolitan Area? I suspect if they are built, more toll lane proposals would likely come to the area.
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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2020, 01:53:35 PM »

Perhaps but if we had better mass transit then this might not be as big of an issue. Some would be carpoolers would use transit instead if it was worth a damn.

LA public transit is light years ahead of KC public transit.

But, also, most Johnson County residents wouldn't take the bus, no matter how good of a system it was.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2020, 03:33:00 PM »

Perhaps but if we had better mass transit then this might not be as big of an issue. Some would be carpoolers would use transit instead if it was worth a damn.

LA public transit is light years ahead of KC public transit.

But, also, most Johnson County residents wouldn't take the bus, no matter how good of a system it was.
I also doubt many of them would take any form of mass transit other than perhaps HSR like what is proposed between DFW and Houston.
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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2020, 01:21:03 PM »

I think there are a lot of people who are quite a bit more willing to take any train than take any bus.
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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2020, 09:52:01 PM »

AFAICT, what's on the table is *toll only* lanes on US 69 from 151st Street north to I-435. There does not appear to be any discount for HOVs, nor is there any indication that said toll lanes would be operated by any organization other than KDOT or KTA.

AIUI, toll lanes would have to have the support of the local governments involved, and I'd suspect if significant opposition to toll lanes of US 69 develops, the toll lane proposal will get shot down. Toll lanes were floated for the western leg of the South Lawrence Trafficway, but it became quickly clear that there was opposition to it.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2021, 10:40:08 AM »

It looks like KDOT is supporting the toll lanes alternative. What a fucking joke that state canít even widen a freeway to six free lanes. If they want the toll lanes then it should be two each way with a C/D system. Instead they have the ďtraditional wideningĒ of 3 GP lanes each way branded with the C/D system which for some reason isnít planned for the toll lane alternative. They specifically state ďthe toll lane proposal takes less room than the traditional widening.Ē

It makes me angry when a DOT manipulates the public into supporting an alternative they want by adding things into other alternatives they know wonít be popular. I see this far too often. I guess the residents of OP wonít complain when they can use their new Lexus Lanes.

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/toll-lanes-along-69-highway-could-soon-be-a-reality
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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2021, 10:57:09 AM »

It looks like KDOT is supporting the toll lanes alternative. What a fucking joke that state canít even widen a freeway to six free lanes.

Not to let this get too far into the political territory, but Brownback tax cuts really screwed the budget for everything in my former state.  There's no money for anything still.

Chris

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2021, 10:58:52 AM »

It looks like KDOT is supporting the toll lanes alternative. What a fucking joke that state canít even widen a freeway to six free lanes.

Not to let this get too far into the political territory, but Brownback tax cuts really screwed the budget for everything in my former state.  There's no money for anything still.

Chris
What I just donít understand is why the larger project with the C/D lanes isnít the one to include tolls. If anything I think it would be the opposite.
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