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Author Topic: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park  (Read 9656 times)

sprjus4

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2021, 11:34:28 AM »

Honestly, the alternative with 6 general purpose lanes and the C/D system seems to provide the highest capacity and would the best for the long term.

But you know... toll lanes  :D
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mvak36

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2021, 03:32:58 PM »

I didn't attend the public meeting but I have seen the Virtual Open house on their site. As I understand it, I think the city of Overland Park still has to approve the toll lanes. I am not sure what the reaction was to the toll lane option was at the public meeting, so it will be interesting to see what Overland Park does. I doubt that they would go with them if everyone is against it.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about what they choose to do eventually, but it does seem fishy that they didn't include the C/D roads in the toll lane option like Plutonic Panda mentioned. Seems like it would be a good idea to have C/D lanes regardless of what they choose to do.

I did like that both the toll lane and the Add general lanes option will add a flyover from US69 NB to I-435 WB. That is long overdue.
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Ned Weasel

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2021, 08:35:05 PM »

If you widen it to six lanes without any toll, it's gonna get worse traffic than with a toll, so I would imagine that's a reason the non-toll option includes C/D lanes and the toll option doesn't.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2021, 09:39:08 PM »

If you widen it to six lanes without any toll, it's gonna get worse traffic than with a toll, so I would imagine that's a reason the non-toll option includes C/D lanes and the toll option doesn't.
No it won’t.
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mvak36

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2021, 01:04:07 AM »

If you widen it to six lanes without any toll, it's gonna get worse traffic than with a toll, so I would imagine that's a reason the non-toll option includes C/D lanes and the toll option doesn't.

After watching the video of their public meeting, that makes sense. I thought they would still need C/D lanes from 135th St up to 435 regardless of what option they chose, but I can see why they wouldn't need it for the toll lane option.
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Ned Weasel

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2021, 06:54:06 AM »

After watching the video of their public meeting, that makes sense. I thought they would still need C/D lanes from 135th St up to 435 regardless of what option they chose, but I can see why they wouldn't need it for the toll lane option.

There's so little space on the east side of the 69 between 119th and the 435, that I can't imagine how they could build an extra roadway without massive demolitions. Has there ever been a diagram showing it? I mean a plan, not a section; I've seen the section already, but I want to see it in plan view. That reminds me, I also wonder how they're going to make space for the approach to the NB-to-WB flyover.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 07:11:29 AM by stridentweasel »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2021, 07:10:23 AM »

If you widen it to six lanes without any toll, it's gonna get worse traffic than with a toll, so I would imagine that's a reason the non-toll option includes C/D lanes and the toll option doesn't.
No it won’t.

Thank God you're here to be the world's formost expert and correct all us plebes without a shred of supporiting argument. We'd be truly lost without you, for you are our True Savior.
There’s nothing to suggest traffic will be higher without the toll lanes. The traffic will come from somewhere. If there is a study that can show traffic being higher pulling from localized roads than how is that an argument against building the free lanes alternative?
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Ned Weasel

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2021, 07:15:26 AM »

There’s nothing to suggest traffic will be higher without the toll lanes. The traffic will come from somewhere. If there is a study that can show traffic being higher pulling from localized roads than how is that an argument against building the free lanes alternative?

It's pretty simple. Without an incentive to get people to adjust their travel choices, they/we will use US 69 in the most selfish and least efficient way possible. There will be so much latent demand that building new lanes without any means of friction is just opening the floodgates.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2021, 08:35:40 AM »

There’s nothing to suggest traffic will be higher without the toll lanes. The traffic will come from somewhere. If there is a study that can show traffic being higher pulling from localized roads than how is that an argument against building the free lanes alternative?

It's pretty simple. Without an incentive to get people to adjust their travel choices, they/we will use US 69 in the most selfish and least efficient way possible. There will be so much latent demand that building new lanes without any means of friction is just opening the floodgates.
What incentive is being offered to get people to adjust their travel choices? How does one not use a roadway selfishly or efficiently? It sounds like you’re trying to butter up the fact that the tolls lanes are intended to “alter” driver behavior by pricing people out of them.

I don’t think much latent demand will be an issue either here. It seems 6 lanes plus a new C/D system will be adequate to handle traffic counts for the next decade+.
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Ned Weasel

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2021, 10:13:03 AM »

What incentive is being offered to get people to adjust their travel choices? How does one not use a roadway selfishly or efficiently? It sounds like you’re trying to butter up the fact that the tolls lanes are intended to “alter” driver behavior by pricing people out of them.

That's exactly the point.  It's a financial incentive.  If driving on the already-congested freeway during rush hour isn't worth the price of paying for the toll lane or sitting in traffic, then adjust your travel to another time, another route, or another mode of travel, or stay home.  That's how you attain better efficiency in the system, even if it's not 100% perfect efficiency.

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I don’t think much latent demand will be an issue either here. It seems 6 lanes plus a new C/D system will be adequate to handle traffic counts for the next decade+.

Okay, so then what?  Add another two to four lanes that will be adequate to handle traffic for the following decade+?  Okay, so then what?  Keep doing the same thing ad infinitum?  That's hardly characteristic of an efficient system.
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sprjus4

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2021, 11:40:20 AM »

I’ve heard this “induced demand” argument umpteenth times and it’s funny honestly. Back here in Virginia, they widened two high bottlenecked sections of I-64 and I-264 in the 1990s from 4 (and 6) to 8 lanes. Both roadways carry well over 100,000 AADT.

Ever since they’ve been widened, here we are, 30 years later, and they still perform at free-flow during rush hour.

The only chokepoints that exist is when they reach system interchanges that reduce lanes and involve substandard, weaving movements. Everywhere else though, no congestion.

What happened to this “induced demand”? Why aren’t they bottlenecked moving 20 mph at rush hour across all the new lanes?
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kphoger

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2021, 01:17:50 PM »

1.  Could it be that the induced demand was real, but it was less than the additional capacity gained?

2.  Factors in Virginia 30 years ago are not the same as the factors in Kansas City today.  They might be similar, they might be dissimilar.
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Scott5114

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2021, 02:54:13 PM »

It's pretty simple. Without an incentive to get people to adjust their travel choices, they/we will use US 69 in the most selfish and least efficient way possible.

It's Johnson County, I'm pretty sure they're gonna be selfish and inefficient no matter what you do...May as well put in some toll lanes so KDOT can have some of the money the rich people don't need.

Really, though, if US-69 is expanded, any extra traffic would be coming from people who are using Quivira, Antioch, or Metcalf in lieu of 69 because it's too congested.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 02:57:04 PM by Scott5114 »
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sprjus4

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2021, 03:04:13 PM »

What is the AADT on that segment of US-69?

1.  Could it be that the induced demand was real, but it was less than the additional capacity gained?
Perhaps, but it's a counter-example to the idea that induced demand always happens to the point widening shouldn't happen, as used by some RE/T groups or heavy proponents of toll lanes.

How about all rural interstates that have been expanded to 6 lanes? I recall driving on I-95 in Georgia during a peak weekend recently, traffic was heavy but moving 75 - 80 mph through without any delays. As soon as you entered South Carolina, traffic is choked down to 45 - 60 mph sustained, then many areas of down to near complete stops, then moving again, and vice versa.

No issues with 6 lanes Georgia, major issues with 4 lane South Carolina.
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kphoger

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2021, 03:27:11 PM »

It's Johnson County, I'm pretty sure they're gonna be selfish and inefficient no matter what you do...May as well put in some toll lanes so KDOT can have some of the money the rich people don't need.

Stereotype much?

My parents both grew up in Johnson County, and it's not all like that.  Here's the house my mom grew up in, for example.  And here's the house where my dad grew up, as part of a family of seven with one bathroom.
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kphoger

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2021, 03:33:21 PM »

What is the AADT on that segment of US-69?

2016 figures:

93 600 = north of 103rd
83 100 = between 103rd & I-435
82 500 = between I-435 & College Blvd
75 400 = between College Blvd & 119th
59 900 = between 119th & Blue Valley Pkwy
78 200 = between Blue Valley Pkwy & Santa Fe
?? ??? = between Santa Fe & 151st
34 700 = south of 151st
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Scott5114

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2021, 05:35:41 PM »

It's Johnson County, I'm pretty sure they're gonna be selfish and inefficient no matter what you do...May as well put in some toll lanes so KDOT can have some of the money the rich people don't need.

Stereotype much?

I have family in both Wyandotte and Johnson counties, so I'm legally obliged to make fun of both of them. :P
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mvak36

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2021, 12:03:15 AM »

Looks like Congresswoman Davids has submitted an earmark request for a part of the US69 project:https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article250974644.html

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Davids’ $15 million earmark request for KDOT covers a portion of the project to improve the interchange at 167th st.
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route56

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM »

What is the AADT on that segment of US-69?

20162019 figures:

93 600 99 500 = north of 103rd
83 100 84 600 = between 103rd & I-435
82 500 84 600 = between I-435 & College Blvd
75 400 88 500 = between College Blvd & 119th
59 900 66 600 = between 119th & Blue Valley Pkwy
78 200 88 400 = between Blue Valley Pkwy & Santa Fe 135th
?? ??? 58 210 = between Santa Fe 135th & 151st
34 700 41 300 = south of 151st

Fixed and updated numbers loaded onto my US 69 page.

https://www.route56.com/kansas-highways/us-69/#aadt
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sprjus4

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2021, 11:54:40 AM »

I feel like with 6 general purpose lanes and 2 C/D lanes in each direction, that stretch of highway would seem to operate relatively smoothly in the long term, more so than simply shoving a toll lane that may or may not get high utilization in.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2021, 12:26:46 PM »

Not sure if this will affect the plan or not but thankfully the toll lane proposal is starting to face some pushback.

https://www.kcur.org/news/2021-06-15/express-lanes-could-ease-traffic-jams-on-highway-69-but-proposed-tolls-raise-concerns-about-equity
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2021, 08:09:07 PM »

Let me guess: The opponents of the toll lanes are proponents of anti-toll "Lexus Lanes" argument. Areas that haven't had a history of toll lanes in their areas are more likely to say toll lanes are "Lexus Lanes." The truth is, although it may seem like higher-income people are more likely to use toll lanes, research has indicated that drivers of all incomes use the toll lanes. Here is an article about the "equity" of Express Toll Lanes: https://reason.org/commentary/are-express-toll-lanes-equitable/.
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Rothman

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2021, 11:28:24 PM »

Let me guess: The opponents of the toll lanes are proponents of anti-toll "Lexus Lanes" argument. Areas that haven't had a history of toll lanes in their areas are more likely to say toll lanes are "Lexus Lanes." The truth is, although it may seem like higher-income people are more likely to use toll lanes, research has indicated that drivers of all incomes use the toll lanes. Here is an article about the "equity" of Express Toll Lanes: https://reason.org/commentary/are-express-toll-lanes-equitable/.
Pfft.  Reason Foundation misrepresented the findings of the actual study.

https://depts.washington.edu/trac/research-news/freeway-and-arterial-management/i-405-express-toll-lanes-analysis-usage-benefits-and-equity/
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Ned Weasel

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2021, 07:27:43 AM »

I have such a hard time buying any argument against toll lanes.

Let's say you go to a fast food restaurant and want a hamburger.  The hamburger costs $2.50, just for the sake of argument.  The clerk asks you if you want fries with that.  Fries cost $0.75, again, just for the sake of argument.  Maybe the fries are worth the extra 75 cents to you, maybe they aren't.  The US 69 proposal is like the hamburger and fries.  If you use US 69, you're already committed to the hamburger.  You've invested the money into a car and fuel, the $2.50 example.  The existence of the toll lanes give you the option of adding fries to your order, for a bit of an extra cost.  Either it's worth it to you, or it's not.  What about the normal lanes on US 69 (the hamburger) getting more congested?  Well, sometimes fast food restaurants have long lines, too, right?

Here's another example.  Let's say you order a package.  I don't care what it is.  But normal shipping costs $5.00, and it gets to you between one and two weeks from the time you order it, or maybe longer if it's a busy season like the holidays.  For an additional two bucks, you can get express shipping that guarantees you'll get it within five business days.  The toll lanes are like the express shipping.  Either it's worth it to you, or it's not.

Now, to the other side of the coin, let's suppose we add lanes without any additional cost to the end user.  That's like selling the burger and fries for the original $2.50 price of the burger.  That's like selling the express shipping for the original $5.00 price of standard shipping.  Maybe it works as a short-time promotion.  But is it really a sustainable business model?
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2021, 02:58:00 PM »

^^^^ your analogy really doesn’t add up here. This isn’t a private venture it’s a public works project to facilitate the greater good. The only comparison I’d make between a fast food restaurant is adding a special like that you pay to extra to stand in just so you can order the food you already were going to order anyways. The new pay to use like prices the poor people out so you get your food faster than everyone else.

If they want to add toll lanes fine but add a GP lane as well.
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