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Author Topic: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?  (Read 12318 times)

SEWIGuy

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2021, 11:55:49 AM »

Those might be the reasons Illinois has fiscal problems, but those issues aren't why Illinois is declining in population.
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cabiness42

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2021, 11:59:58 AM »

Those might be the reasons Illinois has fiscal problems, but those issues aren't why Illinois is declining in population.

It's at least part of it. I have a couple good friends that are realtors and houses in my area sell in an average of less than a week and most of them are people moving from IL because of tax reasons. The increase of working from home and not having to commute as much has really exploded that.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2021, 12:19:16 PM »

Those might be the reasons Illinois has fiscal problems, but those issues aren't why Illinois is declining in population.

It's at least part of it. I have a couple good friends that are realtors and houses in my area sell in an average of less than a week and most of them are people moving from IL because of tax reasons. The increase of working from home and not having to commute as much has really exploded that.

The next Census, and the intermediate estimates, will be interesting to watch. As of 2020, Cook County was showing a 10-year increase of 1.6 percent, Will County was showing an increase of 2.8 percent and Lake County, IN showed an increase of 0.5 percent. So no hard evidence of an avalanche moving from the adjacent counties east over the state line, at least not yet.
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cabiness42

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2021, 12:29:50 PM »

Those might be the reasons Illinois has fiscal problems, but those issues aren't why Illinois is declining in population.

It's at least part of it. I have a couple good friends that are realtors and houses in my area sell in an average of less than a week and most of them are people moving from IL because of tax reasons. The increase of working from home and not having to commute as much has really exploded that.

The next Census, and the intermediate estimates, will be interesting to watch. As of 2020, Cook County was showing a 10-year increase of 1.6 percent, Will County was showing an increase of 2.8 percent and Lake County, IN showed an increase of 0.5 percent. So no hard evidence of an avalanche moving from the adjacent counties east over the state line, at least not yet.

Cook County is such a huge place I'd love to see data at a smaller level. I'd guess that the north/northwestern parts account for the increase. Everybody we're seeing move into our area is coming from the south/southwest parts of Cook.

Gary continues to decline sharply and Hammond slightly, so Lake county overall is not growing quickly but certain parts certainly are.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2021, 05:44:51 PM »

Cook County is such a huge place I'd love to see data at a smaller level. I'd guess that the north/northwestern parts account for the increase. Everybody we're seeing move into our area is coming from the south/southwest parts of Cook.

Gary continues to decline sharply and Hammond slightly, so Lake county overall is not growing quickly but certain parts certainly are.

Smaller level - these are the 9 most southwest/southern townships in Cook County, and their population change 2010-2020. I didn't get the official Census #s for 2020, these were the April 2020 estimates. The south suburbs ARE known for their high property taxes relative to the NW suburbs and City of Chicago. All but one are draining population...but if they all showed up on Lake County IN's doorstep, you'd think the county would show a lot more growth than half a percent.

Bloom - 90,977 to 87,470
Bremen - 110,069 to 106,197
Calumet - 20,770 to 19,843
Palos - 54,609 to 53,076
Rich - 76,656 to 74,752
Thornton - 169,378 to 162,029
Orland - 97,530 to 96,968
Lemont - 21,115 to 22,235
Worth - 152,607 to 146,491

Overall - 793,711 to 769,061 a drop of 24,650 (-3.1%)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 11:28:03 AM by Rick Powell »
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mukade

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2021, 06:13:36 PM »

So your "proof" that the problem with Illinois is high property taxes is that the Chicago metropolitan area grew 75% since 1950?  More than any city you chose except Indianapolis?  A metropolitan area a tenth of Chicago's size in 1950?

The "problem" with Chicago is vastly overrated.  It is a world class city that attracts a lot of people because it is a great place to raise your family and advance your career, all while living relatively cheaply compared to similar cities with similar attributes.

I offered no proof - just objective numbers that show how Chicago metro area growth has diminished to 1.7% in a decade compared to the way things were in 2000. You can see what the other nearby metro areas are like and come to your own conclusions. I bet Columbus, Ohio outpaces Indianapolis so it isn't a Midwest or "Rust Belt" thing.

I can guarantee very high (highest?) property taxes in Illinois are a huge issue to the point that sometimes, property taxes are higher than mortgages. Related, business taxation is high so many jobs are being lost to other states. Particularly, manufacturing jobs.


Gary continues to decline sharply and Hammond slightly, so Lake county overall is not growing quickly but certain parts certainly are.

As far as Gary goes, the high taxes in Calumet Twp. and from the city itself make it expensive plus it has crime and air quality problems.

For the record, I lived in Chicagoland for 21 years so i am not anti-Chicago. I now live closer to Indy.
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mukade

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2021, 09:52:33 PM »

For comparison, here are population numbers for four more cities and metro areas in the region:

MinneapolisMetroCincinnatiMetroKansas CityMetroColumbusMetroGrand RapidsMetro
1950521,7186.0%1,346,28515.8%503,99810.6%1,244,738??456,62214.1%814,35718.6%375,90122.8%503,41030.2%176,5157.4%431,21416.5%
1960482,872-7.4%1,697,40326.1%502,550-0.3%1,544,65924.1%475,5394.1%1,266,44755.5%471,31625.4%977,79094.2%177,3130.5%540,83325.4%
1970434,400-10.0%2,079,82622.5%452,525-10.0%1,690,2349.4%507,0876.6%1,434,79313.3%539,67714.5%1,170,78019.7%197,64911.5%624,73315.5%
1980370,951-14.6%2,255,5028.4%385,460-14.8%1,753,8013.8%448,159-11.6%1,504,2034.8%564,8714.7%1,270,3138.5%181,843-8.0%701,05012.2%
1990368,383-0.7%2,595,79915.1%364,040-5.6%1,844,9175.2%435,146-2,9%1,636,5288.8%632,91012.0%1,405,16810.6%189,1264.0%798,48213.9%
2000382,6183.9%3,031,91816.8%331,285-9.0%2,009,6328.9%441,5451.5%1,836,03812.2%711,47012.4%1,612,69414.8%197,8004.6%935,39317.1%
2010382,5780.0%3,346,85910.4%296,945-10.4%2,130,1516.0%459,7874.1%2,009,3429.4%787,03310.6%1,901,97417.9%188,036-4.9%993,6706.2%
2020429,95412.4%3,690,26110.3%309,3174.2%2,230,0004.7%508,09010.5%2,192,0359.1%905,74815.1%2,078,7259.3%198,9175.8%1,087,5929.5%

1950-2020
Minneapolis-17.6%174.1% (metro)
Cincinnati-38.6%79.2% (metro)
Kansas City11.3%169.2%% (metro)
Columbus141.0%312.9% (metro)
Grand Rapids12.7%152.2% (metro)

Back to the original topic....

In 1993, ISTHA was authorized by the legislature to extend I-355 south to I-80 and further to I-57. As we know, the former opened in 2007, while the latter never got past being a concept.

The excuse was that a further extension to I-57 wasn't needed unless the Peotone airport was built, but in reality, it was needed regardless due to the Illiana Expressway. It could have connected with the Illiana and provided a more direct link back to I-80. Yet, they allowed a bunch of development south of I-80 to prevent a further extension. Why?

Somehow, the Illiana completely lost support from the press in Chicago. If I remember right, Illinois lacked funding, but Indiana was ready to build it thanks to "Major Moves".

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-illiana-illinois-bruce-rauner-quinn-cmap-perspec-0609-20150608-story.html


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SEWIGuy

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2021, 06:46:29 AM »

So your "proof" that the problem with Illinois is high property taxes is that the Chicago metropolitan area grew 75% since 1950?  More than any city you chose except Indianapolis?  A metropolitan area a tenth of Chicago's size in 1950?

The "problem" with Chicago is vastly overrated.  It is a world class city that attracts a lot of people because it is a great place to raise your family and advance your career, all while living relatively cheaply compared to similar cities with similar attributes.

I offered no proof - just objective numbers that show how Chicago metro area growth has diminished to 1.7% in a decade compared to the way things were in 2000. You can see what the other nearby metro areas are like and come to your own conclusions. I bet Columbus, Ohio outpaces Indianapolis so it isn't a Midwest or "Rust Belt" thing.

I can guarantee very high (highest?) property taxes in Illinois are a huge issue to the point that sometimes, property taxes are higher than mortgages. Related, business taxation is high so many jobs are being lost to other states. Particularly, manufacturing jobs.


Gary continues to decline sharply and Hammond slightly, so Lake county overall is not growing quickly but certain parts certainly are.

As far as Gary goes, the high taxes in Calumet Twp. and from the city itself make it expensive plus it has crime and air quality problems.

For the record, I lived in Chicagoland for 21 years so i am not anti-Chicago. I now live closer to Indy.


So you offer no proof...but you guarantee me something?  Lol.
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mukade

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2021, 08:00:29 AM »

So you offer no proof...but you guarantee me something?  Lol.

I had assumed everyone had read some of the numerous articles or news segments on the subject over the years. But if not, I found this from a quick Google search.

Quote
Illinois again ranked second for highest property tax rates in the nation in 2021, behind only New Jersey. Illinois homeowners average $4,942 in property taxes on the U.S. median valued home of $217,500 – exactly double the national average.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-again-ranks-no-2-in-u-s-for-highest-property-taxes/

Compare the property tax amounts in Tennessee, Indiana, Kentucky, and Missouri. Then consider that the median home price in Illinois is higher than neighboring states (see link below). The population numbers bear out the fact that Illinois, including Chicagoland, is lagging other Midwest metro areas. You can decide whether or the not high taxes are part of the reason.

https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/research/median-home-values-by-state/
https://budgetblog.ctbaonline.org/setting-the-record-straight-on-illinois-migration-2c905c9e2ac

And Indiana accounts for about 11-12% of the people leaving Illinois - so it isn't always a better climate thing driving people to move.
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cabiness42

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2021, 08:10:14 AM »

It's not just property taxes. Income taxes are higher, sales taxes are higher, alcohol taxes are higher. Gas taxes are pretty close now that Indiana has raised theirs.

As I noted earlier, realtors selling houses in my area are selling the majority of them to people coming from Illinois.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2021, 09:45:23 AM »

Wow. Articles from a conservative, anti-ax think tank. Shocking.

Regardless the point is that Chicagoland is still increasing in size despite how horrible everyone says it is. If the rest of Illinois offered similar economic opportunities, it wouldn’t shrink either.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 09:47:50 AM by SEWIGuy »
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abefroman329

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2021, 11:04:36 AM »

$2,500 per year is the price I pay to not have to live somewhere with low taxes.
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cabiness42

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2021, 11:37:54 AM »

If the rest of Illinois offered similar economic opportunities, it wouldn’t shrink either.

That's a self-defeating plan by the state, though. The rest of Illinois doesn't have the economic opportunities, but still pays high tax rates. Thus, people leave, decreasing the tax base which requires higher taxes.

Not approving the referendum to allow graduated income taxes was also very self-defeating.

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Rick Powell

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2021, 12:37:39 PM »

If the rest of Illinois offered similar economic opportunities, it wouldn’t shrink either.

That's a self-defeating plan by the state, though. The rest of Illinois doesn't have the economic opportunities, but still pays high tax rates. Thus, people leave, decreasing the tax base which requires higher taxes.

Not approving the referendum to allow graduated income taxes was also very self-defeating.

If enough people leave, there will be cheap housing to be had. At some point there may be equilibrium in high property taxes vs. low housing prices, that along with other amenities might be attractive to potential residents. Anecdotally, one of my co-workers is having issues selling her condo in Chicago at today's prices. There are a glut of units in the city for sale, all amidst a mini-construction boom where even more units are being prepared.

Agreed on the referendum for graduated tax rates, but again, it was the "people's choice". The governor and legislature had it all teed up, but We the People saw it differently for better or worse.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2021, 01:51:18 PM »

If the rest of Illinois offered similar economic opportunities, it wouldn’t shrink either.

That's a self-defeating plan by the state, though. The rest of Illinois doesn't have the economic opportunities, but still pays high tax rates. Thus, people leave, decreasing the tax base which requires higher taxes.

Not approving the referendum to allow graduated income taxes was also very self-defeating.




I agree.
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US20IL64

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2021, 03:09:48 PM »

There are still many who want to buy places in North side and West/South Loop. And suburbs along Metra tracks. Can go back and forth, but every state has plus and minus.  :pan:   :spin:

Anyway, isn't this thread about I-355?   :hmmm:
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Rick Powell

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2021, 04:42:14 PM »

There are still many who want to buy places in North side and West/South Loop. And suburbs along Metra tracks. Can go back and forth, but every state has plus and minus.  :pan:   :spin:

Anyway, isn't this thread about I-355?   :hmmm:

I think whatever function a southern extension of 355 would have served will have to be borne by I-57, I-80 and Will County highways south of 80, and whatever improvements the state and county see fit to do to them. Cedar Road is just off the US 6/355 exit and connects to US 30, Laraway, Manhattan Monee and Wilmington Peotone roads. Not as elegant a solution as a 355 extension, but functional if you need it.

Assuming it gets built at some point, if you're headed to a new South Suburban Airport from 355, 80 to 57 is likely to be the quickest route than anything else, even if the local routes are improved.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 07:28:24 PM by Rick Powell »
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abefroman329

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2021, 08:17:21 PM »

The Peotone airport is never going to happen.  Neither American nor United are going to use it.  Both ORD and MDW are in the middle of major expansion projects.  And efforts to turn GYY and RFD into Chicago's third airport haven't been roaring successes.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2021, 09:58:01 PM »

The Peotone airport is never going to happen.  Neither American nor United are going to use it.  Both ORD and MDW are in the middle of major expansion projects.  And efforts to turn GYY and RFD into Chicago's third airport haven't been roaring successes.

Chicago already has three airports - Mitchell Airport in Milwaukee.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2021, 01:53:05 PM »

Lately, the talk is of South Suburban Airport  being mainly a cargo airport. With Joliet and Elwood warehouses and Amazon opening multiple fulfillment centers in the I-57 corridor in Will and south Cook Counties, it might make sense for the logistics industry as a scaled-down air freight terminal. Agreed that passenger airlines are not seeing a need.
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edwaleni

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2021, 12:14:50 AM »

Lately, the talk is of South Suburban Airport  being mainly a cargo airport. With Joliet and Elwood warehouses and Amazon opening multiple fulfillment centers in the I-57 corridor in Will and south Cook Counties, it might make sense for the logistics industry as a scaled-down air freight terminal. Agreed that passenger airlines are not seeing a need.

The way the railroads have really screwed the pooch by forcing so much interchange through Chicago, has not helped the situation one bit. (Neither has CSX dropping interchange to Indiana, Michigan and Ohio, truck only)

Of my last 2 orders of parts from China, one came air freight via Anchorage, the other came air freight via O'Hare.

The Anchorage order cleared customs in 24 hours. The order through O'Hare took 2 weeks to clear customs. It's still that bad.

So I have no issue with IDOT planning for a future "freight only" airport and have it so close to the Joliet Logistics centers.

Connect it to I-57, I-55 and I-80 to the west, and Indiana wants, I-65 (or farther to the east)

But as for I-355 access, it would be nice to connect the O'Hare freight warehouses directly, for N/S transfer, but too late. They will have to weave over using I-55 or IL-395.
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Revive 755

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2021, 10:34:38 PM »

Cedar Road is just off the US 6/355 exit and connects to US 30, Laraway, Manhattan Monee and Wilmington Peotone roads. Not as elegant a solution as a 355 extension, but functional if you need it.

Functional is debatable:

* Two railroad crossings - doesn't seem hard to find a train on the one near Laraway Road.
* Multiple schools
* Intersection at US 30 may have capacity issues (particularly the southbound left)

Getting through New Lenox on Cedar just seems to take forever.  Not that I-80 and I-57 always seem to be doing much better.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 10:37:01 PM by Revive 755 »
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abefroman329

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2021, 10:21:37 AM »

Lately, the talk is of South Suburban Airport  being mainly a cargo airport. With Joliet and Elwood warehouses and Amazon opening multiple fulfillment centers in the I-57 corridor in Will and south Cook Counties, it might make sense for the logistics industry as a scaled-down air freight terminal. Agreed that passenger airlines are not seeing a need.
It would make sense for the cargo-only airlines, but I don't think, say, Lufthansa would be interested in splitting their passenger and cargo operations between O'Hare and the hypothetical Peotone airport.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2021, 10:39:31 AM »

Functional is debatable:

* Two railroad crossings - doesn't seem hard to find a train on the one near Laraway Road.
* Multiple schools
* Intersection at US 30 may have capacity issues (particularly the southbound left)

Getting through New Lenox on Cedar just seems to take forever.  Not that I-80 and I-57 always seem to be doing much better.

Interestingly, Google says the Cedar/Manhattan Monee route (32 minutes) is only 3 minutes slower than I-80 to I-57 (29 minutes) from the I-355/US 6 interchange to the Monee exit on I-57. That's a snapshot in time though, with a few sections of I-57 in red and yellow as of now. Another alternate route showing the same 32 minutes as Cedar/MM is Cedar to US 30 to Wolf Rd. to Laraway Rd. to Center Road to Manhattan Monee.
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mukade

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Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2021, 07:55:58 AM »

Illinois has a bit of a history of grandiose projects that turn out to be solutions in search of problems. Both the decades long efforts to build the third commercial airport near Peotone and the actual building of the MidAmerica St. Louis Airport fall into this category. On a smaller scale, I-180 and IL 336 are similar in that neither delivered the promised benefits despite high costs. Given that background, seriously planning out a freeway now that would serve a potential cargo air hub would fall into the same category and would be premature at best, in my opinion.

As for the benefits of an air cargo hub being close to the Joliet Logistics centers, how likely is it that items shipped by air will make it through the cross dock or intermodal facilities? Maybe they would, but it seems like it would defeat the purpose of paying the high shipping costs. Especially when FedEx and UPS have proven capabilities for fast last mile delivery.
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