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Why is there an interstate THERE but not one___?

Started by achilles765, September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PM

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achilles765

So looking at various maps and reading and thinking about all the 2dis in the system, I find myself just wondering aloud sometimes what these people are thinking when they choose where to route an interstate.

Now, I get the major 2di routes that serve as major border to border or coast to coast routes, and I get the routes that serve as bypasses or connect major population centers.  But even some of those seem to be less of a need than some glaring omissions.

The route that really made me start thinking about this was Interstate 22.  What a pointless looking route.  It doesn't even reach Memphis or Birmingham proper...and it doesn't pass any city of any real size or importance.  I mean, Tupelo? Hell, even the two cities it connects aren't exactly thriving, growing cities of the future. Neither even has a population of 1 million...and Memphis is one of the murder capitals of the USA. 
I also have issue with Wisconsin getting to use Interstates 39,41, and 43...and making all of them intrastate (except 39, but it may as well be.)
Interstate 39 is pointless as a 2di...the multiplex with I 90 and I 94 should not have a third route... Interstate 39 is multiplexed with SOMETHING for almost its entire length.  If it needed an interstate designation, a X-90 and x-94 number could be thrown on the sections to the north and south of the concurrency, respectively.
Interstate 41 should be an extension of Interstate 55...route it along 90/94, then send it up the I 41 route...and save that number.
I-43 is the only one I think is ok.
And what is the point of Interstates 82, 72, the Interstate 76 in Colorado, or the Interstate 86 in Idaho?  Im legitimately curious as I dont know those areas and am willing to admit if im wrong..

And yet... there is no interstate route to directly connect Houston and Austin... or Denver and Dallas.. or Baton Rouge and Natchez .even our new interstate 14 seems like its in a pointless place...compoletely missing all of the major cities and instead cutting through backwater towns.

What do you guys think? Are there routes like that for you? Or do you have routes that you think are unnecessary but then discovered were much more useful than you originally had thought?   
I love freeways and roads in any state but Texas will always be first in my heart


SkyPesos

#1
You're thinking of each interstate separately, instead of thinking it like a system, with connections to other interstates. The connections are a reason why there's some interstates mainly going through rural areas. Like I-70 west of Green River, UT would be super useless ending at Cove Fort if it's not a given that most traffic at that point will continue onto I-15 SB towards Vegas and SoCal.
Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PM
The route that really made me start thinking about this was Interstate 22.  What a pointless looking route.  It doesn't even reach Memphis or Birmingham proper...and it doesn't pass any city of any real size or importance.  I mean, Tupelo? Hell, even the two cities it connects aren't exactly thriving, growing cities of the future. Neither even has a population of 1 million...and Memphis is one of the murder capitals of the USA.
Instead of thinking of just Memphis to Birmingham, how about Memphis to Atlanta, or Memphis to Florida? That'll make I-22 much more useful than you think.

Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PM
I also have issue with Wisconsin getting to use Interstates 39,41, and 43...and making all of them intrastate (except 39, but it may as well be.)
Interstate 39 is pointless as a 2di...the multiplex with I 90 and I 94 should not have a third route... Interstate 39 is multiplexed with SOMETHING for almost its entire length.  If it needed an interstate designation, a X-90 and x-94 number could be thrown on the sections to the north and south of the concurrency, respectively.
Interstate 41 should be an extension of Interstate 55...route it along 90/94, then send it up the I 41 route...and save that number.
I-43 is the only one I think is ok.
Blame IDOT for I-39, I-41 and I-43, specifically the latter two. They don't want to extend any of the THREE N-S interstates that end in the Chicago area (I-55, 57, 65) into Wisconsin, and the reason is probably pretty childish too, but I don't know.

Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PM
And what is the point of Interstates 82, 72, the Interstate 76 in Colorado, or the Interstate 86 in Idaho?  Im legitimately curious as I dont know those areas and am willing to admit if im wrong..
Look at driving directions for fastest routing between NYC and Los Angeles. You'll clinch one of the interstates you listed here on the way.

As for I-82, you're pretty much cutting off Seattle from a good chunk of US cities without it. I-90 is too far north to go towards most of the cities, so I-82 provides the connection to points southeast of Seattle.

Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PM
And yet... there is no interstate route to directly connect Houston and Austin... or Denver and Dallas.. or Baton Rouge and Natchez .even our new interstate 14 seems like its in a pointless place...compoletely missing all of the major cities and instead cutting through backwater towns.
I-10 probably could've been routed via Austin via US 290, instead of via San Antonio when the system was first planned, with I-37 extended northwest to meet I-10 at Fredericksburg, and an I-6 between Austin and Houston. It's shorter via Austin instead of dipping down to San Antonio too. I think the reason why San Antonio was chosen over Austin was because it was a much larger city in the 1950s.

Bruce

I-82 is the main route from Seattle to Boise and Salt Lake City, with onward connections to quite a few regions. The Yakima Valley is also rather important, with the majority of the nation's apples and hops grown there, along with corn, pears, grapes, peppers, and other vegetables. I-82 also passes close to a few ex- and current military facilities.

I-86 is just a spur that happened to get a 2di number when it came time to retire the suffixed routes.

hotdogPi

I-64 doesn't actually hit Evansville for some reason...
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Max Rockatansky

I-5 versus CA 99 in the Central Valley of California.

thspfc

I-39 is a straight 306-mile Interstate-grade corridor that connects several significant cities. If you think that it should just be US-51, fine; get rid of the entire Interstate system then, because almost every Interstate was solely a US route at one point. Anti I-39 arguments are based on nothing but resistance to change, there is no logical reason why it shouldn't be an Interstate.

I-55 is IDOT's problem, not Wisconsin's. Wisconsin wanted I-55, I-57, and/or I-65 to continue north from Chicago, and Illinois refused.

I-76 in Colorado makes up a major link of a coast-to-coast journey across the middle of the country. It's part of the fastest route between NYC and LA. There's lots of truck traffic on it.

DandyDan

Quote from: thspfc on September 04, 2021, 09:41:38 PM
I-39 is a straight 306-mile Interstate-grade corridor that connects several significant cities. If you think that it should just be US-51, fine; get rid of the entire Interstate system then, because almost every Interstate was solely a US route at one point. Anti I-39 arguments are based on nothing but resistance to change, there is no logical reason why it shouldn't be an Interstate.

I-55 is IDOT's problem, not Wisconsin's. Wisconsin wanted I-55, I-57, and/or I-65 to continue north from Chicago, and Illinois refused.

I-76 in Colorado makes up a major link of a coast-to-coast journey across the middle of the country. It's part of the fastest route between NYC and LA. There's lots of truck traffic on it.
I-76 is the main route between Denver and Omaha, and points east of Omaha. It was formerly I-80S until they got rid of suffixed routes.
MORE FUN THAN HUMANLY THOUGHT POSSIBLE

kenarmy

As much as I ignore I-22, I wouldn't say it's useless. But why is there a Slidell-Meridian interstate (I-59) instead of a Gulfport-Jackson interstate (US 49).
Just a reminder that US 6, 49, 50, and 98 are superior to your fave routes :)


EXTEND 206 SO IT CAN MEET ITS PARENT.

SkyPesos

Quote from: kenarmy on September 04, 2021, 10:38:38 PM
As much as I ignore I-22, I wouldn't say it's useless. But why is there a Slidell-Meridian interstate (I-59) instead of a Gulfport-Jackson interstate (US 49).
New Orleans to points northeast.

Daniel Fiddler

Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PMThe route that really made me start thinking about this was Interstate 22.  What a pointless looking route.  It doesn't even reach Memphis or Birmingham proper...and it doesn't pass any city of any real size or importance.  I mean, Tupelo? Hell, even the two cities it connects aren't exactly thriving, growing cities of the future. Neither even has a population of 1 million...and Memphis is one of the murder capitals of the USA. 

Metropolitan Memphis has over 1.3 million and Metropolitan Birmingham has BARELY 1 million.  And it does reach Birmingham proper.  Why it does not reach Memphis proper I do not know, probably because Tennessee did not get their act together, but there is always I-269 and I-55 / I-69 around.

Indeed Memphis is a murder capital.  So are Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, and New Orleans.  Although that does not make it any less important a city to the USA as a distribution center.  FedEx bases their main operations in Memphis.

Think about it this way in addition.  Metropolitan Atlanta has over 6 million population.  Florida has over 21 million population.  The fastest way for Walmart to bring their trucks from NW Arkansas to said places is via I-22.  It shaves an hour and a half versus going through Chattanooga even with I-840.

roadman65

I-99.   Oh wait, Buddy Schuster wanted a two digit in his area.  Despite it could be a three digit as well as the part north of Williamsport (two different ones anyway) signing this into law created this one.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

MikieTimT

Quote from: Daniel Fiddler on September 04, 2021, 11:20:29 PM
Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PMThe route that really made me start thinking about this was Interstate 22.  What a pointless looking route.  It doesn't even reach Memphis or Birmingham proper...and it doesn't pass any city of any real size or importance.  I mean, Tupelo? Hell, even the two cities it connects aren't exactly thriving, growing cities of the future. Neither even has a population of 1 million...and Memphis is one of the murder capitals of the USA. 

Metropolitan Memphis has over 1.3 million and Metropolitan Birmingham has BARELY 1 million.  And it does reach Birmingham proper.  Why it does not reach Memphis proper I do not know, probably because Tennessee did not get their act together, but there is always I-269 and I-55 / I-69 around.

Indeed Memphis is a murder capital.  So are Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, and New Orleans.  Although that does not make it any less important a city to the USA as a distribution center.  FedEx bases their main operations in Memphis.

Think about it this way in addition.  Metropolitan Atlanta has over 6 million population.  Florida has over 21 million population.  The fastest way for Walmart to bring their trucks from NW Arkansas to said places is via I-22.  It shaves an hour and a half versus going through Chattanooga even with I-840.

There's a significant portion of the U.S. with no native beach access, thus tourists in the center of the country flock to the Atlantic and Gulf coasts to vacation.  Anytime we go to Florida, other than to the panhandle beaches, I-22 is the go-to.

US 89

Quote from: SkyPesos on September 04, 2021, 08:04:22 PM
Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PM
The route that really made me start thinking about this was Interstate 22.  What a pointless looking route.  It doesn't even reach Memphis or Birmingham proper...and it doesn't pass any city of any real size or importance.  I mean, Tupelo? Hell, even the two cities it connects aren't exactly thriving, growing cities of the future. Neither even has a population of 1 million...and Memphis is one of the murder capitals of the USA.
Instead of thinking of just Memphis to Birmingham, how about Memphis to Atlanta, or Memphis to Florida? That'll make I-22 much more useful than you think.

You can think west and north beyond Memphis, too: I-22 is a major gateway to the southeast from central and western regions of the US. I've even clinched it as part of a straight shot from SLC to Atlanta.

Terry Shea

#13
Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PMquote author=achilles765 link=topic=30120.msg2657426#msg2657426 date=1630799353]

I also have issue with Wisconsin getting to use Interstates 39,41, and 43...and making all of them intrastate (except 39, but it may as well be.)
Interstate 39 is pointless as a 2di...the multiplex with I 90 and I 94 should not have a third route... Interstate 39 is multiplexed with SOMETHING for almost its entire length.  If it needed an interstate designation, a X-90 and x-94 number could be thrown on the sections to the north and south of the concurrency, respectively.
Interstate 41 should be an extension of Interstate 55...route it along 90/94, then send it up the I 41 route...and save that number.
I-43 is the only one I think is ok.
Why is it not ok to multiplex I-39 with I-90 and I-94, but would be ok to multiplex I-55 with I-90 and I-94, and replace I-41 with with I-55, putting it out of sequence?  I fail to see any logic here.

SeriesE

The pointless interstate routes are just political brownie points. Sure, build an interstate grade facility over the corridor, but it doesn't need an interstate designation.

roadman65

Quote from: SeriesE on September 05, 2021, 01:27:24 AM
The pointless interstate routes are just political brownie points. Sure, build an interstate grade facility over the corridor, but it doesn't need an interstate designation.

Tell that one to NC then.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Flint1979

This is the reason I got for I-10 going between Houston and San Antonio and not Austin. Back in 1950 Austin only had 132,000 people, San Antonio had over 400,000 people and Houston only had 600,000 people. Houston really grew big time in the 1950's going up to almost a million people by 1960. None of these three cities have ever lost population in any census going all the way back to the 1800's they have grown with every single census.

I think today an Interstate between Houston and Austin makes sense and upgrading US-290 would make sense. That should be where I-14, the current I-14 makes little sense.

Flint1979

Quote from: 1 on September 04, 2021, 08:34:34 PM
I-64 doesn't actually hit Evansville for some reason...
It would have to do quite a dip coming west of Louisville or it'd have to cross the Ohio River a few times going into and out of Kentucky again. That's why I-164 was built, it's now I-69 of course.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: Terry Shea on September 05, 2021, 01:07:59 AM
Quote from: achilles765 on September 04, 2021, 07:49:13 PMquote author=achilles765 link=topic=30120.msg2657426#msg2657426 date=1630799353]

I also have issue with Wisconsin getting to use Interstates 39,41, and 43...and making all of them intrastate (except 39, but it may as well be.)
Interstate 39 is pointless as a 2di...the multiplex with I 90 and I 94 should not have a third route... Interstate 39 is multiplexed with SOMETHING for almost its entire length.  If it needed an interstate designation, a X-90 and x-94 number could be thrown on the sections to the north and south of the concurrency, respectively.
Interstate 41 should be an extension of Interstate 55...route it along 90/94, then send it up the I 41 route...and save that number.
I-43 is the only one I think is ok.
Why is it not ok to multiplex I-39 with I-90 and I-94, but would be ok to multiplex I-55 with I-90 and I-94, and replace I-41 with with I-55, putting it out of sequence?  I fail to see any logic here.


The sequence isn't important.  But I generally agree with you.  I think the only real "problem" is the long I-39 multiplex.  Ideally I-39 (or a 3di) would run from I-90/94 north to Wausau and I-43 would have been extended into Illinois.  But the timing of everything didn't work out, so this is what we have.

I-41 in Wisconsin is fine.  It made perfect sense since the highway was "Highway 41."  It just now has red, white and blue shields instead of black and white.

Quote from: SeriesE on September 05, 2021, 01:27:24 AM
The pointless interstate routes are just political brownie points. Sure, build an interstate grade facility over the corridor, but it doesn't need an interstate designation.

I disagree with this.  I think interstate grade highways of significant length should have interstate designations.  That's why the system as a whole is important.

achilles765

Ok...now that you guys have put this a bit more into perspective for me, I can see that these routes are moire useful than I realized...
I love freeways and roads in any state but Texas will always be first in my heart

sprjus4

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 05, 2021, 07:37:41 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 04, 2021, 08:34:34 PM
I-64 doesn't actually hit Evansville for some reason...
It would have to do quite a dip coming west of Louisville or it'd have to cross the Ohio River a few times going into and out of Kentucky again. That's why I-164 was built, it's now I-69 of course.
I-164 was added in the 1968 additions, and it wasn't complete until around 1990. It was not apart of the original interstate system.

webny99

Why is there an interstate from Springfield, IL, to Hannibal, MO (that doesn't even connect to the interstate system on the western end) and yet no interstate along the US 219 corridor from PA north to Buffalo?

SeriesE

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 05, 2021, 07:49:30 AM
Quote from: SeriesE on September 05, 2021, 01:27:24 AM
The pointless interstate routes are just political brownie points. Sure, build an interstate grade facility over the corridor, but it doesn't need an interstate designation.

I disagree with this.  I think interstate grade highways of significant length should have interstate designations.  That's why the system as a whole is important.

They're typically in-place upgrades of existing highways,  such as US routes. I fail to see how an US route number is less serviceable than an interstate number.

US 89

Quote from: SeriesE on September 05, 2021, 04:24:49 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 05, 2021, 07:49:30 AM
Quote from: SeriesE on September 05, 2021, 01:27:24 AM
The pointless interstate routes are just political brownie points. Sure, build an interstate grade facility over the corridor, but it doesn't need an interstate designation.

I disagree with this.  I think interstate grade highways of significant length should have interstate designations.  That's why the system as a whole is important.

They're typically in-place upgrades of existing highways,  such as US routes. I fail to see how an US route number is less serviceable than an interstate number.

US routes, for better or worse, vary greatly in quality and design standard. Putting interstate shields on portions of US routes that meet interstate guidelines for a decent distance and connect to the rest of the interstate system serves as a reassurance to the public that the road they're about to get on is going to maintain freeway standard.

Take I-22 as an example, which was almost entirely an in-place upgrade of US 78. In Georgia and eastern Alabama, US 78 is largely a slow, winding, rural 2-lane road. If you live in Georgia and have that association with US 78 already, how else are you supposed to know that the Memphis-Birmingham part of 78 is actually a long-distance continuous interstate-grade freeway? If I'm in Birmingham and I get on freeway US 78, if I haven't studied a good map before, for all I know it's going to downgrade back to a typical rural 2-lane once I get out of the greater metro area. (Also note that Google Maps does not count as a "good map" for the purpose of this exercise as their current color scheme makes it rather difficult to distinguish freeways from arterials most of the time.)

kphoger

Quote from: US 89 on September 05, 2021, 06:16:04 PM
Take I-22 as an example, which was almost entirely an in-place upgrade of US 78. In Georgia and eastern Alabama, US 78 is largely a slow, winding, rural 2-lane road. If you live in Georgia and have that association with US 78 already, how else are you supposed to know that the Memphis-Birmingham part of 78 is actually a long-distance continuous interstate-grade freeway? If I'm in Birmingham and I get on freeway US 78, if I haven't studied a good map before, for all I know it's going to downgrade back to a typical rural 2-lane once I get out of the greater metro area.

What does it matter?  If I'm driving from Birmingham to Memphis, then I'm going to take the route whether I know it's a freeway or not.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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