Will smartphone ownership become a de facto requirement?

Started by hbelkins, September 27, 2021, 04:09:01 PM

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jeffandnicole

Quote from: kalvado on October 12, 2021, 09:41:42 AMCash vs card is irrelevant, as cash is still the legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues.

That's doesn't mean what you think it means.


hotdogPi

To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

kkt

Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.

I don't think that is the case.  Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s.  They won't accept them and they don't have to.  Get a cashier's check for it.  They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.

hotdogPi

Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.

I don't think that is the case.  Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s.  They won't accept them and they don't have to.  Get a cashier's check for it.  They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.

You don't owe them any money when you bring them the stacks of $100s. It's always possible to cancel the transaction.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

webny99

Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 12:23:08 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.

I don't think that is the case.  Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s.  They won't accept them and they don't have to.  Get a cashier's check for it.  They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.

You don't owe them any money when you bring them the stacks of $100s. It's always possible to cancel the transaction.

Essentially if the product or service has already been provided, you can pay with cash. That is generally not the case with a large purchase being made by an individual. Although it's more common for business-to-business transactions, businesses have systems for payments and don't typically use cash like an individual would.

NWI_Irish96

The guy who mows our lawn takes only cash. I offered him to pay him 15% more to accept Venmo and he wouldn't do it. I'm guessing he doesn't report his income and is avoiding any paper trail.
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wanderer2575

Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.

Not true, at least under federal statutes.  No business or person is required to accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services.  The legal tender statutes simply ensure that use of currency or coins can't be considered an attempt at fraud. 

Some states may require that businesses/organizations/individuals accept accept currency and coins -- I don't know if any currently do but I believe a few states were at least considering such legislation earlier this year.  Other than that, a business is perfectly free to demand payment for services with peanut M&Ms if it so chooses.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

kalvado

Quote from: webny99 on October 12, 2021, 12:41:14 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 12:23:08 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.

I don't think that is the case.  Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s.  They won't accept them and they don't have to.  Get a cashier's check for it.  They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.

You don't owe them any money when you bring them the stacks of $100s. It's always possible to cancel the transaction.

Essentially if the product or service has already been provided, you can pay with cash. That is generally not the case with a large purchase being made by an individual. Although it's more common for business-to-business transactions, businesses have systems for payments and don't typically use cash like an individual would.
Point here is that cash may be tricky in many aspects. Employee stealing cash, security of handling cash, different bank fee structure, less oversight (cannabis business). But non of those issues is new, most are as old as cash itself is.
We're talking primarily about new technologies - security of credit card transactions, in particular in relation to phones. My gut feeling is that cash, while possibly not being preferable option, should work with all small transaction - say below $20 or $100. Now, talking about AET....

hotdogPi

Quote from: kalvado on October 12, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
Now, talking about AET....

Giving drivers the option to turn around will solve the legal tender law violation.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

1995hoo

Typically, statutes regarding AET systems include some provision requiring the motorist to make arrangements to pay the toll before using the road (generally, this means getting the appropriate transponder). There's nothing, other than common sense, preventing anyone from mailing in cash to replenish an E-ZPass, for example.

At least in Virginia, cash-payers also have the Reload Card option. Thus, someone can pay cash even though there is no old-fashioned tollbooth at which he would stop and hand over his money.
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commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Scott5114

#160
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.

I don't think that is the case.  Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s.  They won't accept them and they don't have to.  Get a cashier's check for it.  They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.

The training is "why are you counting and verifying that by hand? put it in the money counter, you fool."


From experience, you can count a seven-digit amount of money with dead accuracy on one of these in...oh...fifteen minutes.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kkt

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 12, 2021, 11:20:52 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.

I don't think that is the case.  Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s.  They won't accept them and they don't have to.  Get a cashier's check for it.  They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.

The training is "why are you counting and verifying that by hand? put it in the money counter, you fool."


From experience, you can count a seven-digit amount of money with dead accuracy on one of these in...oh...fifteen minutes.

Is the money counter good at rejecting counterfits?

hbelkins

^^^

Makes me wonder how the bill readers in vending machines can tell if you insert a $1, a $5, or just a random sheet of paper.

At one time in this area, someone had discovered a bunch of washers that were the exact size and weight of a quarter. Gobs of them were found in vending machines. Not sure how the companies responded to that.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kkt on October 13, 2021, 01:41:45 AMIs the money counter good at rejecting counterfeits?

Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2021, 12:19:53 PMMakes me wonder how the bill readers in vending machines can tell if you insert a $1, a $5, or just a random sheet of paper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency-counting_machine

I suspect there is an element of getting what you pay for.  Pattern recognition is used to identify bill denomination (not sure how the equipment is updated to accommodate changes in bill design), and albedo measurement (using UV) is used to identify counterfeits that have been produced using washed paper (genuine paper is unwashed) or lack fluorescent markings that are applied to real bills when they are printed.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kalvado

Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2021, 12:19:53 PM
^^^

Makes me wonder how the bill readers in vending machines can tell if you insert a $1, a $5, or just a random sheet of paper.

At one time in this area, someone had discovered a bunch of washers that were the exact size and weight of a quarter. Gobs of them were found in vending machines. Not sure how the companies responded to that.
I suspect that is a never ending cycle. One thing about US coins is that they are non-magnetic, while washers  likely are (canadian coins are magnetic as well). So that may be an easy path of protection.
Some obscure foreign coins sometimes show up. I got a french franc in the change - not once, but twice! - long after  those were replaced by euros. At some point it may be easier to accept some loss, or use social methods (e.g. "if this continues, this vending machine is gone for good!")

J N Winkler

Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2021, 12:50:53 PMAt some point it may be easier to accept some loss, or use social methods (e.g. "if this continues, this vending machine is gone for good!")

I've always assumed that merchandise from vending machines is high-margin to cover the costs of things like fraudulent use of tokens, attempts to break into the cash handler to steal coins and bills, and even toppling the machine in an attempt to extract vended goods that fail to release.

As a result, I tend to view vending machines not as an amenity, but rather as a sign of a low-trust environment.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kalvado

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 13, 2021, 01:13:20 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2021, 12:50:53 PMAt some point it may be easier to accept some loss, or use social methods (e.g. "if this continues, this vending machine is gone for good!")

I've always assumed that merchandise from vending machines is high-margin to cover the costs of things like fraudulent use of tokens, attempts to break into the cash handler to steal coins and bills, and even toppling the machine in an attempt to extract vended goods that fail to release.

As a result, I tend to view vending machines not as an amenity, but rather as a sign of a low-trust environment.
Vending machines are there for those who needs stuff here and now, so high markup is justified. Sometimes, your other choices are not much better, if present,  until you choose to drive to a nearby wallmart (and have to spend gas, clock off for the trip, loose parking spot, or what not). Option of not buying that overpriced thing is always there!

abefroman329

Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2021, 12:19:53 PM
^^^

Makes me wonder how the bill readers in vending machines can tell if you insert a $1, a $5, or just a random sheet of paper.

Not very well, considering how often they reject authentic bills.

Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2021, 12:19:53 PMAt one time in this area, someone had discovered a bunch of washers that were the exact size and weight of a quarter. Gobs of them were found in vending machines. Not sure how the companies responded to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Turnpike#Token_war_with_New_York_City_Subway

Also, I'm pretty sure I've heard that coin-operated machines had trouble distinguishing Susan B. Anthony dollars from quarters.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2021, 01:27:48 PMOption of not buying that overpriced thing is always there!

Indeed it is, as is "Anticipate your needs and bring from home" and "Don't allow this vending-machine company to exploit your employees and customers."
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Scott5114

#169
Quote from: kkt on October 13, 2021, 01:41:45 AM
Is the money counter good at rejecting counterfits?

Too good–false positives are far more common than false negatives. Automated counterfeit detection is essential in commercial cash processing, because, when dealing with currency by the strap, there is no time to manually examine each bill.

The usual setup for a two-pocket money counter like the one I posted the image of is to have the machine stack all of the accepted and counted bills in the bottom pocket, while unreadable ("no-call") bills and suspected counterfeits are diverted to the top pocket for later manual examination. Smaller one-pocket machines stop the count and beep at you when they detect a counterfeit, and the user must examine the top bill of the stack and tell the machine to accept or reject it before resuming processing.

By the way, these machines can also tell the denomination of a bill and count accordingly. If you stick a $1 in a strap of $100s and run it, it will duly display the total as $9,901. (Or you can tell it you'd like to only count $100s, and it will kick the $1 into the reject pocket for you and display a total of $9,900.)

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 13, 2021, 12:30:28 PM
I suspect there is an element of getting what you pay for.  Pattern recognition is used to identify bill denomination (not sure how the equipment is updated to accommodate changes in bill design), and albedo measurement (using UV) is used to identify counterfeits that have been produced using washed paper (genuine paper is unwashed) or lack fluorescent markings that are applied to real bills when they are printed.

Any time there is a new bill design released, Treasury releases advance design details to the major players in the market. Most institutional users, like casinos and banks, have a service contract to maintain the machines, so as part of that contract, they send a representative out to flash the machine with new firmware before the bills are released to the public. Cummins-Allison, in particular, will also affix a sticker to the back of the machine to allow the user to ascertain when the last firmware update without having to run a bill through and see what happens.



The above is from a Cummins JetScan that I bought off of eBay used for a pittance because it jams. It is simply in need of a new bearing, which are available online, but I haven't repaired it yet because it's kind of a pain to get to, and because it would still need to be flashed to accommodate the current (G-type) $100. I'm not sure how that could be accomplished without asking the Cummins-Allison office here in Norman to do that for me, and I suspect that without a service contract it will be more expensive than I'm willing to spend on what amounts to a silly toy for someone who doesn't regularly deal with straps of currency at home.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

MikeTheActuary

Dusting off this thread.

I'm currently on a business trip to Toronto (new county and new airport to add to my collection).

Just before I left my car to head into the terminal, I realized my phone's case wasn't fitting properly.   Apparently, the phone's battery is starting to swell.   It's therefore unsafe to use, and I left it behind.

Out of personal curiosity, I've started keeping a list of uses of my smartphone that I'm noticing through their lack.

So far:


  • Telephone / text message device (I call my wife every night when on the road)
  • Access to email
  • Web browser
  • Access to my corporate network (I have an RSA token app on my phone, required to log in)
  • Phone book (Getting in touch with corporate IT to find a workaround to the above will be interesting, since our Canadian business and US business operate pretty independently except for oddballs like me)
  • Camera
  • Note-taking device (e.g. I would have made a few notes about where I left my car at the airport, since I didn't fly out of my usual airport)
  • Travel organizer (I would normally have relied on my phone to remember travel details, like which hotel was reserved for me by corporate travel)
  • Boarding pass
  • Book/library
  • Customs/Immigration declaration (normally when flying cross-border, I'd do most of the formalities on my phone in advance, expediting the process)
  • Access to Uber (very few cabs when I got out of the destination airport)
  • Insurance documentation (renting a car was out, since I don't keep an insurance card in my wallet anymore)
  • Navigation device (navigating local public transport, and finding the hotel in this unfamiliar-to-me place was....interesting)
  • Shopping tool
  • Password manager
  • Watch
  • Alarm clock
  • White noise generator
  • Music / audiobook player.
  • Home automation control (my phone controls lights on/off at home, mimicking my living patterns, when away)
  • Home alarm control
  • Parking pass (I prepaid my airport parking for a discount, accessing parking with a QR code)
I went ahead and ordered a new phone, which should be delivered to my house the day after I return. I expect this list of uses (which I'm maintaining out of personal curiosity) will grow between now and then.

ZLoth

I'm surprised you don't use the smart phone camera to take backup photos of the receipts.

In addition, I'm able to access my medical records from my smart phone as well, including current prescriptions.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

mgk920

And then the battery fails when you are away from any place to service it, essentially causing it to become a 'tile'....

:-o

Mike

mgk920

More and more major sports teams are now requiring that a cell phone app be scanned for ticketing and admissions, too.  I'm worried about cold weather performance of the phone and its battery for this.

(grrrrr...)

Mike

JayhawkCO

Quote from: mgk920 on August 18, 2022, 12:42:14 PM
More and more major sports teams are now requiring that a cell phone app be scanned for ticketing and admissions, too.  I'm worried about cold weather performance of the phone and its battery for this.

(grrrrr...)

Mike

I know this isn't a perfect solution, but if it's cold enough to worry about that, you're probably wearing a coat warm enough to put the phone inside of.



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