Double Double Center Lines

[roadman65]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/51350231640/in/album-72157719505204933/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/51419010490/in/album-72157719513492163/

Just curious about what all think about the extra set of center lines like in these here road photos of US 30 in OR and US 101.


Me personally I like this type of set up as it not only leaves an extra space between you and the oncoming driver, but if the road needs to eventually have a divider, there is room for a jersey barrier to be built.   Not to mention the openness over the paved median is nice to have as well.

[kphoger]

I like it OK, but I'd prefer occasional slashes through the neutral space.  Not necessarily this many slashes, but something like that.

Minnesota double-single variant:  https://goo.gl/maps/qiWbdv3nXu1eLbhE8
Mexican double-single version:  https://goo.gl/maps/v4JFWTdRYbwmxG6A8

[froggie]

Minnesota double-single variant:  https://goo.gl/maps/qiWbdv3nXu1eLbhE8

Has since been replaced with a center Jersey barrier.

[kphoger]

Minnesota double-single variant:  https://goo.gl/maps/qiWbdv3nXu1eLbhE8

Has since been replaced with a center Jersey barrier.

Yep.  I've driven that road many times, but never since the Jersey barrier was installed, so the big gap in the middle is what sticks in my memory.

I wonder who else besides me has actually overtaken vehicles on that alignment, pre-barrier.  Even for those who've driven on it, I wouldn't be surprised if traffic was so thick as to prevent passing.  I can probably count the number of vehicles I've overtaken there on one hand.

[jakeroot]

Double double center lines are used to indicate a median. You cannot cross it for any reason in some states like California. More common in Washington is the 18-inch yellow line (example, example (flexposts added since)) or a regular jersey barrier. Sometimes there is just two yellow lines, like most states (example).

I see it in Washington used with chevron markings often enough (example), although California doesn't seem to call for them as often.

[kphoger]

Double double center lines are used to indicate a median. You cannot cross it for any reason in some states like California.

Important portion bolded.

For example, here in my neck of the woods, half the people coming to church turn left across this "median" (the alley on the left leads to the church).  Totally normal.

[roadman65]

Double double center lines are used to indicate a median. You cannot cross it for any reason in some states like California.

Important portion bolded.

For example, here in my neck of the woods, half the people coming to church turn left across this "median" (the alley on the left leads to the church).  Totally normal.

It's all how the laws not only are, but how much enforcement of the laws are. Many places turns are illegal but many ignore including cops.  If law enforcement is careless it's like that law never existed.

[kphoger]

Here's another example that's obviously OK, in Oklahoma (appropriately):  https://goo.gl/maps/8PQxDDUhMA2PCDRg8

Or, on the other side of the interchange:  https://goo.gl/maps/DxQZtkchZfBsBzcD9

[1995hoo]

Double double center lines are used to indicate a median. You cannot cross it for any reason in some states like California. ....

I'm curious to know whether California treats such striping as a "median" or other hard barrier for purposes of having to stop for school buses with flashing lights. In Virginia, if there is no actual physical barrier between sides of the road (grassy median, guardrail, jersey barrier, paved island, whatever), you have to stop, no matter how wide the road is–in other words, paint is not sufficient to constitute a barrier. But insofar as I'm aware, we have no law against making left or right turns across the sorts of lines the OP's examples show.

What we do have, in a few cases, are instances of double double white lines separating a restricted lane from general-purpose lanes. Normally, these are used to separate HO/T lanes, such as on the Beltway, and they have flexible posts to prevent people from crossing them. Occasionally, however, they appear without the posts. It is illegal to cross these lines. It is also illegal to cross a single set of double white lines, which VDOT used to use on I-66 to separate the left-side HOV lane from the other lanes; it was a $75 fine if you crossed those, though I never heard of anyone being ticketed for it. The same fine applies to the double double white lines, but people cross them all the time in the areas where there are no posts and I've never heard of anyone being ticketed there either.

[roadman65]

I know in Florida we have the law on divided roads stopping for opposing school busses are not in effect at all. Yet before, once upon a time, a road near my house was undivided with a paved median, but cars would treat it as a grass median and continue.

I even brought it up here on the forum and NE 2 said in Florida a median paved or unpaved is a median as far as school bus laws go. Then later another road enthusiast on here  I met in person told me a paved median doesn’t count and you must stop.

[kphoger]

Double double center lines are used to indicate a median. You cannot cross it for any reason in some states like California.

Important portion bolded.

For example, here in my neck of the woods, half the people coming to church turn left across this "median" (the alley on the left leads to the church).  Totally normal.

It's all how the laws not only are, but how much enforcement of the laws are. Many places turns are illegal but many ignore including cops.  If law enforcement is careless it's like that law never existed.

In Kansas, the law doesn't prohibit turning across the neutral space unless it was "so constructed as to impede vehicular traffic between roadways on a divided highway" (KS Stat § 8-1524 (2014)).

I know in Florida we have the law on divided roads stopping for opposing school busses are not in effect at all. Yet before, once upon a time, a road near my house was undivided with a paved median, but cars would treat it as a grass median and continue.

I even brought it up here on the forum and NE 2 said in Florida a median paved or unpaved is a median as far as school bus laws go. Then later another road enthusiast on here  I met in person told me a paved median doesn't count and you must stop.

Florida state law specifies that you don't have to stop for a school bus on the other side of a divided highway if the median meets any of the following criteria (Title XXIII, Ch. 316, § 172):

(a) the median is unpaved and at least five feet across,

(b) it's a raised median,

(c) there's a physical barrier in the median.

[epzik8]

I mean, don't drive in the median???

[jakeroot]

Double double center lines are used to indicate a median. You cannot cross it for any reason in some states like California. ....

I'm curious to know whether California treats such striping as a "median" or other hard barrier for purposes of having to stop for school buses with flashing lights. In Virginia, if there is no actual physical barrier between sides of the road (grassy median, guardrail, jersey barrier, paved island, whatever), you have to stop, no matter how wide the road is–in other words, paint is not sufficient to constitute a barrier. But insofar as I'm aware, we have no law against making left or right turns across the sorts of lines the OP's examples show.

The law in California (CVC 22454) does not require stopping on roads with four or more lanes or those that are divided.

I can't actually find the CVC relating to double sets of solid yellow lines, but the multitude of mock written tests available online consistently indicate that it's not legal to cross and legally creates a divided highway, as long as the lines are two feet apart. So, theoretically, a two-lane highway with four yellow lines in the middle would not require stopping in the opposing direction.

What we do have, in a few cases, are instances of double double white lines separating a restricted lane from general-purpose lanes. Normally, these are used to separate HO/T lanes, such as on the Beltway, and they have flexible posts to prevent people from crossing them. Occasionally, however, they appear without the posts. It is illegal to cross these lines. It is also illegal to cross a single set of double white lines, which VDOT used to use on I-66 to separate the left-side HOV lane from the other lanes; it was a $75 fine if you crossed those, though I never heard of anyone being ticketed for it. The same fine applies to the double double white lines, but people cross them all the time in the areas where there are no posts and I've never heard of anyone being ticketed there either.

We have stuff like that here in Washington (between the 405 ETL and GP lanes north of Bellevue), and people almost never cross them: Example.

[jakeroot]

I thought this deserved its own post.

Historically, CalTrans (at least in the Los Angeles area) used double double yellow lines to separate HOV lanes from general purpose (GP) lanes, but I believe they have switched to using solid white lines.

Example before (I-5, Orange County):


I-5, Orange County, CA, 2018 by Jacob Root, on Flickr

Example after:


I-5, Orange County, CA, present day by Jacob Root, on Flickr

[kphoger]

I can't actually find the CVC relating to double sets of solid yellow lines, but the multitude of mock written tests available online consistently indicate that it's not legal to cross and legally creates a divided highway, as long as the lines are two feet apart. So, theoretically, a two-lane highway with four yellow lines in the middle would not require stopping in the opposing direction.

See below.

Division 11 – Rules of the Road

Chapter 3 – Driving, Overtaking, and Passing

Article 1 – Driving on Right Side

21651.

(a) Whenever a highway has been divided into two or more roadways by means of intermittent barriers or by means of a dividing section of not less than two feet in width, either unpaved or delineated by curbs, double-parallel lines, or other markings on the roadway, it is unlawful to do either of the following:

(1) To drive any vehicle over, upon, or across the dividing section.

(2) To make any left, semicircular, or U-turn with the vehicle on the divided highway, except through an opening in the barrier designated and intended by public authorities for the use of vehicles or through a plainly marked opening in the dividing section.

[adventurernumber1]

I'm very familiar with these, as a prominent road has had them where I've grown up. In Dalton, the northern bypass (US 41/US 76/GA 3) is a concrete road with four lanes, and two sets of double yellow lines forming its "median." I always found it intriguing as a kid, seeing that most divided highways had a grass median, but this one was unique.

The interesting benefit I've noticed from this type of paved median, particularly in the case of the aforementioned bypass, is that I've seen left turn lanes be extended farther back to accommodate high volumes of traffic, and I'd imagine it's easier to repave and/or restripe to achieve this, than what may be more work involved if it was a highway with a grass median that was having a turn lane extended or created. There has been several intersections on the bypass where this has occurred in recent years. Interestingly, the result of this, and all kinds of patches of new concrete pavement, and even some inconsistent restriping, has made much of this road look more cluttered and unrecognizable (which is why I used street-view from several years ago in the preceding link). At this point, with the way it looks, and how many patches and "bandages" have proliferated on the road, it seems like they'd just be better off resurfacing the whole thing anew. The original concrete is pretty old anyway (almost 40 years old IIRC, since my dad said it was built around the time he graduated high school), so it seems like common sense, but I digress.

Another location where I've seen this exact same type of road is US 278/GA 6 in Powder Springs.*

*VERY unexpected discovery: as I was randomly doing streetview down the road on US 278, I completely unexpectedly came across a huge sign goof.   
Looks like I'll now be posting this to the "US/State mixup shield error signs" thread..

[fillup420]

US 321 between Lenoir and Blowing Rock NC

[US 89]

I was taught in Utah driver's ed that this was considered a median that you weren't allowed to cross for any reason (California-style). I have no idea if this is the actual law, and I am too lazy to find out. 

[jeffandnicole]

Unusual for NJ, US 322 has these double double center lines for about 20 miles through rural South Jersey.  https://goo.gl/maps/oKzBB6FA96jC2psK8

The area, only roughly 6 feet wide, is generally used as a two way center left turn lane.  The only real restrictions are at some intersections with traffic lights where "No Left Turn" signs are posted; there's usually a jughandle at the intersection for motorists to make their left and u turns. 

[Tom958]

I'm very familiar with these, as a prominent road has had them where I've grown up. In Dalton, the northern bypass (US 41/US 76/GA 3) is a concrete road with four lanes, and two sets of double yellow lines forming its "median." I always found it intriguing as a kid, seeing that most divided highways had a grass median, but this one was unique...

Another location where I've seen this exact same type of road is US 278/GA 6 in Powder Springs.*

The western extension of GA 2 Battlefield Parkway is like that, too.

These aren't what the OP is about. They're limited access highways with the same  "14-foot flush median" that usually serves as a two-way left turn lane, but which isn't needed on these highways because there are no driveways. What the OP is referring to is stretches where the added width is much less than that required for a full lane. Off the top of my head, I know three such stretches in Georgia: a short stretch of US 76-GA 515 over a mountain pass between Young Harris and Hiwassee, most of US 319 between Moultrie and Tifton, and US 82 between GA 196 and I-95. Per Google Maps' measuring tool, the extra width is only two or three feet, though I always guessed it was four.

Both your examples and mine were built during a short period in the eighties when GDOT was feeling especially poor and was looking to save money. For better or worse, they haven't been removed, but they haven't been repeated, either.

[webny99]

Minnesota double-single variant:  https://goo.gl/maps/qiWbdv3nXu1eLbhE8

Has since been replaced with a center Jersey barrier.

Yep.  I've driven that road many times, but never since the Jersey barrier was installed, so the big gap in the middle is what sticks in my memory.

I wonder who else besides me has actually overtaken vehicles on that alignment, pre-barrier.  Even for those who've driven on it, I wouldn't be surprised if traffic was so thick as to prevent passing.  I can probably count the number of vehicles I've overtaken there on one hand.

Is overtaking even legal there? Without knowing, I would assume not.

Here's an example near me where I wish they would install jersey barrier to make it feel more like a freeway. It was called for in the original project plans, but it's never happened, and the project wrapped up ~three years ago.

[froggie]

Minnesota double-single variant:  https://goo.gl/maps/qiWbdv3nXu1eLbhE8

Has since been replaced with a center Jersey barrier.

Yep.  I've driven that road many times, but never since the Jersey barrier was installed, so the big gap in the middle is what sticks in my memory.

I wonder who else besides me has actually overtaken vehicles on that alignment, pre-barrier.  Even for those who've driven on it, I wouldn't be surprised if traffic was so thick as to prevent passing.  I can probably count the number of vehicles I've overtaken there on one hand.

Is overtaking even legal there? Without knowing, I would assume not.

Not anymore, since MnDOT installed the jersey barrier.  Before that, there were striped passing zones (except at the CSAH 6 interchange, which has always had a jersey barrier), though with an average 20-25K AADT, you really took your life into your own hands when attempting to pass.  I never tried.

[kphoger]

Minnesota double-single variant:  https://goo.gl/maps/qiWbdv3nXu1eLbhE8

Has since been replaced with a center Jersey barrier.

Yep.  I've driven that road many times, but never since the Jersey barrier was installed, so the big gap in the middle is what sticks in my memory.

I wonder who else besides me has actually overtaken vehicles on that alignment, pre-barrier.  Even for those who've driven on it, I wouldn't be surprised if traffic was so thick as to prevent passing.  I can probably count the number of vehicles I've overtaken there on one hand.

Is overtaking even legal there? Without knowing, I would assume not.

Not anymore, since MnDOT installed the jersey barrier.  Before that, there were striped passing zones (except at the CSAH 6 interchange, which has always had a jersey barrier), though with an average 20-25K AADT, you really took your life into your own hands when attempting to pass.  I never tried.

Yep.  I once overtook three vehicles in a single shot along a stretch just like what you linked to.  It felt like quite an accomplishment, let me tell you!

But, with the crazy traffic counts between Delano and Maple Plain, and the curves and hills there usually removing any sliver of overtaking possibility that remained, and having either (a) more than 600 miles to go before getting home to Wichita or (b) already driven more than 600 miles and nearing the home stretch– ... I was generally not in any mood to wait behind a slowpoke, and would take any opportunity to leapfrog ahead.

(I see in GSV that they've now solid-striped and added flexible bollards to the whole rest of US-12 to Delano.  I mean, I get it.  But geez, that would be annoying on a Sunday morning.

[adventurernumber1]

I'm very familiar with these, as a prominent road has had them where I've grown up. In Dalton, the northern bypass (US 41/US 76/GA 3) is a concrete road with four lanes, and two sets of double yellow lines forming its "median." I always found it intriguing as a kid, seeing that most divided highways had a grass median, but this one was unique...

Another location where I've seen this exact same type of road is US 278/GA 6 in Powder Springs.*

The western extension of GA 2 Battlefield Parkway is like that, too.

These aren't what the OP is about. They're limited access highways with the same  "14-foot flush median" that usually serves as a two-way left turn lane, but which isn't needed on these highways because there are no driveways. What the OP is referring to is stretches where the added width is much less than that required for a full lane. Off the top of my head, I know three such stretches in Georgia: a short stretch of US 76-GA 515 over a mountain pass between Young Harris and Hiwassee, most of US 319 between Moultrie and Tifton, and US 82 between GA 196 and I-95. Per Google Maps' measuring tool, the extra width is only two or three feet, though I always guessed it was four.

Both your examples and mine were built during a short period in the eighties when GDOT was feeling especially poor and was looking to save money. For better or worse, they haven't been removed, but they haven't been repeated, either.

Thanks for the insight! That is very interesting. I hadn't realized that was why these highways were built like that. Sure enough, the south section of the bypass of Dalton was built a little later, in the 1990s IIRC, and it is a standard divided highway for the most part, in contrast to the north section mentioned in my post (from the 1980s).

[webny99]

Minnesota double-single variant:  https://goo.gl/maps/qiWbdv3nXu1eLbhE8

Has since been replaced with a center Jersey barrier.

Yep.  I've driven that road many times, but never since the Jersey barrier was installed, so the big gap in the middle is what sticks in my memory.

I wonder who else besides me has actually overtaken vehicles on that alignment, pre-barrier.  Even for those who've driven on it, I wouldn't be surprised if traffic was so thick as to prevent passing.  I can probably count the number of vehicles I've overtaken there on one hand.

Is overtaking even legal there? Without knowing, I would assume not.

Not anymore, since MnDOT installed the jersey barrier.  Before that, there were striped passing zones (except at the CSAH 6 interchange, which has always had a jersey barrier), though with an average 20-25K AADT, you really took your life into your own hands when attempting to pass.  I never tried.

Yep.  I once overtook three vehicles in a single shot along a stretch just like what you linked to.  It felt like quite an accomplishment, let me tell you!

But, with the crazy traffic counts between Delano and Maple Plain, and the curves and hills there usually removing any sliver of overtaking possibility that remained, and having either (a) more than 600 miles to go before getting home to Wichita or (b) already driven more than 600 miles and nearing the home stretch– ... I was generally not in any mood to wait behind a slowpoke, and would take any opportunity to leapfrog ahead.

(I see in GSV that they've now solid-striped and added flexible bollards to the whole rest of US-12 to Delano.  I mean, I get it.  But geez, that would be annoying on a Sunday morning.

Wow, I can't imagine that NYSDOT would ever allow a passing zone with that type of striping and non-standard separation between the lanes. The NY 31 example I linked to earlier is one of the only locations where a similar type of non-standard separation exists, and it would be similarly difficult to pass even if it was allowed. Traffic is almost never-ending in the peak direction, with even fewer gaps now that traffic from NY 531 flows freely onto this section. Even back when passing was allowed, (as shown here), I don't ever recall passing anyone, driver or passenger.