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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 412948 times)

andrepoiy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1300 on: February 18, 2022, 02:53:37 PM »

https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/151352

Tolls on the 412 and the 418 are going to be removed, effective April 5th.

Oh wow. More signage to be changed now...

The local road interchanges at the ends of the freeways are also partial interchanges, so that kinda sucks.
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1995hoo

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1301 on: February 18, 2022, 03:22:47 PM »

"RR-25 8 km" looks a bit funny without a road name...

I was thinking it looks funny to see a period used after the abbreviations for the road types (St., Pkwy., Blvd., etc.).

I mean, I believe that's how you're supposed to do it when you abbreviate something according to English rules. Might be wrong though.

That's largely a regionalism. The Brits omit periods for a lot of things for which Americans would use them—the Brits would address John Smith as "Mr Smith," for examples, whereas Americans would use "Mr. Smith." Setting that aside, though, in the USA highway signs do not ordinarily use periods after abbreviations, which is why the periods on the Ontario signs look funny to me. Interesting that I don't recall noticing that on my most recent trip to Kingston and Toronto in 2019.
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GenExpwy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1302 on: February 19, 2022, 03:24:30 AM »

"RR-25 8 km" looks a bit funny without a road name...

I was thinking it looks funny to see a period used after the abbreviations for the road types (St., Pkwy., Blvd., etc.).

I mean, I believe that's how you're supposed to do it when you abbreviate something according to English rules. Might be wrong though.

That's largely a regionalism. The Brits omit periods for a lot of things for which Americans would use them—the Brits would address John Smith as "Mr Smith," for examples, whereas Americans would use "Mr. Smith." Setting that aside, though, in the USA highway signs do not ordinarily use periods after abbreviations, which is why the periods on the Ontario signs look funny to me. Interesting that I don't recall noticing that on my most recent trip to Kingston and Toronto in 2019.

The British writing rule is to use a period only when the final letter has been removed, thus:

          Rep. John Smith Jr

 because the final e has been lost from Representative, but the r in Junior is still there.
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1303 on: February 19, 2022, 07:30:09 AM »

https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/151352

Tolls on the 412 and the 418 are going to be removed, effective April 5th.

Oh wow. More signage to be changed now...

The local road interchanges at the ends of the freeways are also partial interchanges, so that kinda sucks.

On the other side, those who taked photos of these exits signs will be historic photos. ;)
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1995hoo

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1304 on: February 21, 2022, 11:03:21 AM »

I don’t have time to watch the whole thing right now (taking advantage of a holiday plus nice weather to get stuff done around the house), but this showed up in my YouTube recommendations and I thought it might be of interest here: "Traffic and transportation around Toronto and Ontario in the 1960s–70s"

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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
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commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

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andrepoiy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1305 on: February 21, 2022, 11:06:21 PM »

I don’t have time to watch the whole thing right now (taking advantage of a holiday plus nice weather to get stuff done around the house), but this showed up in my YouTube recommendations and I thought it might be of interest here: "Traffic and transportation around Toronto and Ontario in the 1960s–70s"


idk if it's just me or the audio cuts out midway. Still, amazes me that so much shit was built back then in the 60s-70s-80s and pretty much nothing else afterwards.
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Rothman

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1306 on: February 21, 2022, 11:21:38 PM »

Driving around Toronto this weekend made me think something's awry with highway design in the area.  Couldn't put my finger on what was the issue, but something to do with how lanes merge or drop off or become exit only just seemed off.

Also wondered if the area would have benefitted from an Interstate-style numbering system, as opposed to everything being 4xx, to assist in navigation.
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Buffaboy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1307 on: February 21, 2022, 11:43:19 PM »

Driving around Toronto this weekend made me think something's awry with highway design in the area.  Couldn't put my finger on what was the issue, but something to do with how lanes merge or drop off or become exit only just seemed off.

Also wondered if the area would have benefitted from an Interstate-style numbering system, as opposed to everything being 4xx, to assist in navigation.

What a coincidence, I drove up to Toronto on Saturday. Something did seem odd about their highways, even on the QEW. But they were pleasant to drive on, except for a line of potholes near Niagara Falls.

A question: I read about a proposed freeway from the early 2000s that was supposed to run from Fort Erie to the Hamilton airport. This does not exist today. Does anyone know what this was and why it stalled?
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1308 on: February 22, 2022, 08:42:16 AM »

Driving around Toronto this weekend made me think something's awry with highway design in the area.  Couldn't put my finger on what was the issue, but something to do with how lanes merge or drop off or become exit only just seemed off.

What a coincidence, I drove up to Toronto on Saturday. Something did seem odd about their highways, even on the QEW. But they were pleasant to drive on, except for a line of potholes near Niagara Falls.

Haha, a third New Yorker chiming in to say that I know what you mean. Ontario is (in)famous for two lane exits with an option lane. I don't have an issue with the configuration, but I'm not a fan of their partial APL signage. Notice how the arrows don't line up properly, and the outer one is much tighter than the inner one. And this supplementary sign is even worse!

Their tapers at the end of merges are also a bit different than ours, in terms of how gradually they end, and the use of the thicker closely spaced dashes. Overall I feel like the roads in Canada have a bit more of a European vibe than what we're used to in the US. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just different.
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webny99

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1309 on: February 22, 2022, 08:43:22 AM »

A question: I read about a proposed freeway from the early 2000s that was supposed to run from Fort Erie to the Hamilton airport. This does not exist today. Does anyone know what this was and why it stalled?

My guess is you're referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Peninsula_Highway

I don't know any more than what's available on that page, but it would definitely make sense as a future extension of 407 ETR. The segment of the QEW that it would bypass is almost worse than the sections closer to Toronto.
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webny99

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1310 on: February 22, 2022, 08:49:48 AM »

Also wondered if the area would have benefitted from an Interstate-style numbering system, as opposed to everything being 4xx, to assist in navigation.

It's certainly different, but I've never known it to cause confusion. It's basically just like having freeways numbered 1-27 and adding 4 in front of all the numbers. It's not like the numbers go deep into the 30's/40's/50's where you could start to mix them up easily. And you know anything starting with a 4 is a freeway, so that's handy too.
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Rothman

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1311 on: February 22, 2022, 09:16:35 AM »

Also wondered if the area would have benefitted from an Interstate-style numbering system, as opposed to everything being 4xx, to assist in navigation.

It's certainly different, but I've never known it to cause confusion. It's basically just like having freeways numbered 1-27 and adding 4 in front of all the numbers. It's not like the numbers go deep into the 30's/40's/50's where you could start to mix them up easily. And you know anything starting with a 4 is a freeway, so that's handy too.
I dunno.  It just seemed like if you could designate main routes and then spurs that it would be more comprehensible than remembering which cross routes go where.
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andrepoiy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1312 on: February 22, 2022, 10:34:57 AM »

Driving around Toronto this weekend made me think something's awry with highway design in the area.  Couldn't put my finger on what was the issue, but something to do with how lanes merge or drop off or become exit only just seemed off.

Also wondered if the area would have benefitted from an Interstate-style numbering system, as opposed to everything being 4xx, to assist in navigation.

I don't quite get what you're trying to convey, but to me I find US roads a bit strange, so it's really a matter of familiarity
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andrepoiy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1313 on: February 22, 2022, 10:36:38 AM »

Driving around Toronto this weekend made me think something's awry with highway design in the area.  Couldn't put my finger on what was the issue, but something to do with how lanes merge or drop off or become exit only just seemed off.

What a coincidence, I drove up to Toronto on Saturday. Something did seem odd about their highways, even on the QEW. But they were pleasant to drive on, except for a line of potholes near Niagara Falls.

Haha, a third New Yorker chiming in to say that I know what you mean. Ontario is (in)famous for two lane exits with an option lane. I don't have an issue with the configuration, but I'm not a fan of their partial APL signage. Notice how the arrows don't line up properly, and the outer one is much tighter than the inner one. And this supplementary sign is even worse!

Their tapers at the end of merges are also a bit different than ours, in terms of how gradually they end, and the use of the thicker closely spaced dashes. Overall I feel like the roads in Canada have a bit more of a European vibe than what we're used to in the US. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just different.

For the APLs, I don't think they're intended to be centred over each lane, the arrows just show which lanes exit. Because before they were arrows, the signs literally just said "2 lanes". And the yellow signs are there to supplement.
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andrepoiy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1314 on: February 22, 2022, 10:38:46 AM »

Also wondered if the area would have benefitted from an Interstate-style numbering system, as opposed to everything being 4xx, to assist in navigation.

It's certainly different, but I've never known it to cause confusion. It's basically just like having freeways numbered 1-27 and adding 4 in front of all the numbers. It's not like the numbers go deep into the 30's/40's/50's where you could start to mix them up easily. And you know anything starting with a 4 is a freeway, so that's handy too.
I dunno.  It just seemed like if you could designate main routes and then spurs that it would be more comprehensible than remembering which cross routes go where.

Thing is, there just isn't that many to remember once you live in the city for a while.
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webny99

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1315 on: February 22, 2022, 10:44:28 AM »

Ontario is (in)famous for two lane exits with an option lane. I don't have an issue with the configuration, but I'm not a fan of their partial APL signage. Notice how the arrows don't line up properly, and the outer one is much tighter than the inner one. And this supplementary sign is even worse!
...

For the APLs, I don't think they're intended to be centred over each lane, the arrows just show which lanes exit. Because before they were arrows, the signs literally just said "2 lanes". And the yellow signs are there to supplement.

Yeah, I don't have an issue with how the arrows line up with the lanes, it's how they line up with each other. Note in the yellow sign in particular, they're spread out at the bottom and then get much closer together, almost like if you extended them, the left one would cross over the right one.
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1316 on: February 22, 2022, 11:07:41 AM »

I dunno.  It just seemed like if you could designate main routes and then spurs that it would be more comprehensible than remembering which cross routes go where.

Considering that there's a grand total of three, maybe now four freeways that would be designated as spurs or loops (405, 406, 409 were long considered as such, and maybe 418 now) and everything else mainline, such a system would be rather useless.

EDIT:
I mean, I can appreciate the logic from an American perspective, where national considerations for numbering exist. But since numbering is entirely contained within the province, and route planning has evolved differently from the 2di-3di set up here, setting up an extra layer of tiering seems counterintuitive.


A question: I read about a proposed freeway from the early 2000s that was supposed to run from Fort Erie to the Hamilton airport. This does not exist today. Does anyone know what this was and why it stalled?

My guess is you're referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Peninsula_Highway

I don't know any more than what's available on that page, but it would definitely make sense as a future extension of 407 ETR. The segment of the QEW that it would bypass is almost worse than the sections closer to Toronto.

Yeah, that's long dead.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 11:19:30 AM by cbeach40 »
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Rothman

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1317 on: February 22, 2022, 11:20:23 AM »

I dunno.  It just seemed like if you could designate main routes and then spurs that it would be more comprehensible than remembering which cross routes go where.

Considering that there's a grand total of three, maybe now four freeways that would be designated as spurs or loops (405, 406, 409 were long considered as such, and maybe 418 now) and everything else mainline, such a system would be rather useless.


Pfft.  Maybe I'll start a fictional thread and call it "Renumbering Ontario Highways" and just sit back and see what happens.
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GaryV

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1318 on: February 22, 2022, 11:27:49 AM »

Also wondered if the area would have benefitted from an Interstate-style numbering system, as opposed to everything being 4xx, to assist in navigation.

It's certainly different, but I've never known it to cause confusion. It's basically just like having freeways numbered 1-27 and adding 4 in front of all the numbers. It's not like the numbers go deep into the 30's/40's/50's where you could start to mix them up easily. And you know anything starting with a 4 is a freeway, so that's handy too.
I dunno.  It just seemed like if you could designate main routes and then spurs that it would be more comprehensible than remembering which cross routes go where.
Remember, there are not that many "mainline" long distance ON routes - 400 thru 403, and 417. The others are in the Toronto/Niagara area. They function the same as 3di routes in US metro areas. Why would it be harder to remember where ON 418 goes than to remember where I-405 goes?
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1319 on: February 22, 2022, 12:13:20 PM »

Ontario's route numbering system is fine.

I get the appeal of the US numbering system, and that of Quebec's system, but there isn't much of a benefit in Ontario.

Consider Buffalo:
The freeways in Buffalo can include interstate routes, US, route as well as state routes.  Aside from the interstates, there are both US route and state route freeways that are important routes throughout the system, so the route hierarchy of both what the route number and the shape of its shield breaks down pretty quickly there too.  Just driving he routes, who would figure that Route 33 is in fact a higher order route than the lower numbered Route 5.  Same with US Routes, US-219 is an important efficient route for through traffic.  US-62 is a useless holdover from before the interstate era.  When you think about it, that doesn't really make sense even though anyone familiar with driving through Buffalo (as I am) has rationalized it. 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 12:16:08 PM by AsphaltPlanet »
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webny99

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1320 on: February 22, 2022, 12:37:58 PM »

Maybe I'll start a fictional thread and call it "Renumbering Ontario Highways" and just sit back and see what happens.

Too late... it's going to happen here now.  :-P

Personally the main reason why I don't have an issue with Ontario's route numbering is because it is specific to Ontario and not tied into a larger national system.  This means two things: 1) there's fewer tiers, so it's easier to keep track of route status, and 2) setting aside TCH, all routes are contained within the province, which brings the average route length down significantly - so distinguishing between short and long routes (like we do with 2di/3di and 2dus/3dus) isn't as important.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 12:41:43 PM by webny99 »
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1321 on: February 22, 2022, 12:43:34 PM »

I dunno.  It just seemed like if you could designate main routes and then spurs that it would be more comprehensible than remembering which cross routes go where.

Considering that there's a grand total of three, maybe now four freeways that would be designated as spurs or loops (405, 406, 409 were long considered as such, and maybe 418 now) and everything else mainline, such a system would be rather useless.


Pfft.  Maybe I'll start a fictional thread and call it "Renumbering Ontario Highways" and just sit back and see what happens.
How about "reviving Ontario's decommissioned highways?" Sadly that's definitely gonna be fictional.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1322 on: February 25, 2022, 09:21:26 PM »

https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/infrastructure/2022/02/ontarios-first-diverging-diamond-interchange-taking-shape

Ontario's first diverging diamond interchange (DDI) on the QEW at Glendale Avenue is taking shape and it's expected to be open by this fall.
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andrepoiy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1323 on: February 25, 2022, 10:33:55 PM »

https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/infrastructure/2022/02/ontarios-first-diverging-diamond-interchange-taking-shape

Ontario's first diverging diamond interchange (DDI) on the QEW at Glendale Avenue is taking shape and it's expected to be open by this fall.

That's interesting, given that the default conversion of any interchange would be a parclo.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #1324 on: February 26, 2022, 12:33:32 PM »

https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/infrastructure/2022/02/ontarios-first-diverging-diamond-interchange-taking-shape

Ontario's first diverging diamond interchange (DDI) on the QEW at Glendale Avenue is taking shape and it's expected to be open by this fall.

That's interesting, given that the default conversion of any interchange would be a parclo.

Google Maps suggests that it's currently operating as the reverse of most Ontario parclo interchanges, the B4 (A4 is most common). Perhaps that's why they are getting rid of it, too complicated for the locals. :-D
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