Michigan Notes

[NWI_Irish96]

"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."

People who won't pay $5 to get somewhere probably weren't going to spend a lot once they got there. A loss for Budget Inn and McDonald's perhaps, but not for the Hilton or the high end steakhouses.

[thenetwork]

i know a lot of people (for various reasons) will shunpike the Indiana Toll Road for free I-94, but that southernmost Michigan freeway proposal looked like it would've been within 10 miles of the ITR for most of it's run. 

I wonder if Indiana had somehow "persuaded" MDOT, and/or the Michiganders along the border towns to NIMBY the idea?

[Terry Shea]

Good lord, people, even MDOT says tolls may discourage tourism!

"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf

Is that enough citation for you laxative junkies?

Perhaps you should read the entire pamphlet, which definitely is trying to persuade people of the benefits of tolling rather than criticizing it.

Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.

Citation needed.  You're implying that toll roads encourage tourism, which is an absolutely asinine statement!

[sprjus4]

^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.

Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.

[Terry Shea]

^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.

Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.

I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization.  At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal.  That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation.  I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted.  But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan. 

Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism.  If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?

Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.

I'll answer anyway.  It's an apples to oranges comparison.  There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers.  For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have.  It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have.  But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't.  I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways.  So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is.  But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it.  Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited:  https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/

1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii

Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states.  So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states.  That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not.  It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion. 

[Rothman]

Good lord, people, even MDOT says tolls may discourage tourism!

"Toll roads may discourage tourism and
business location."

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Programs/Planning/Tolling/MDOT-Toll-Roads.pdf

Is that enough citation for you laxative junkies?

Perhaps you should read the entire pamphlet, which definitely is trying to persuade people of the benefits of tolling rather than criticizing it.

Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.

Citation needed.  You're implying that toll roads encourage tourism, which is an absolutely asinine statement!

See my response to Bessert in the thread.  I am not saying toll roads generate tourism, but that they aren't that big of a deterrent, if at all.

[Flint1979]

All these highways they are talking about becoming toll roads are easily shunpiked. Like if I was going north of Saginaw to say Grayling, I'd just take M-58 to M-47 to US-10 to US-127 back to I-75 if that part isn't tolled. If I was using I-94 between Detroit and the Indiana border and that was tolled I'd just use US-12 even though it's slower I'm not going to pay to ride on a highway. And I heard in Ohio or Pennsylvania or maybe both that if you get on the toll road and you exit it too quickly like say you drive 60 miles along it and make it in a half hour they are supposed to give you a ticket. I'd avoid that by simply hitting a service plaza and staying there for a few minutes to off set any of that but I'd avoid tolls all together by shunpiking.

One of the best shunpikes I did was when I went to Pittsburgh in 2021. I didn't really care how long it took me to get to Pittsburgh, I took US-30 across Ohio and West Virginia to get to Pittsburgh it was a rather nice route too especially between Upper Sandusky and Mansfield about a 45 mile drive that took about 40 minutes to complete.

[Flint1979]

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

lol @ an M-21 freeway between Grand Rapids and Flint. As a lifetime visitor of St. Johns, I don't think that ever crossed my mind even in my FritzOwl-ish youth.

I have never thought of M-21 being a freeway. I-69 and I-96 are there now so that will never be brought up again.

[The Ghostbuster]

Regardless of whether charging tolls encourages or discourages tourism, I think the likelihood of more tolls being implemented in Michigan is highly unlikely. Of course, if I'm wrong, I will own up to it.

[pianocello]

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

lol @ an M-21 freeway between Grand Rapids and Flint. As a lifetime visitor of St. Johns, I don't think that ever crossed my mind even in my FritzOwl-ish youth.

I have never thought of M-21 being a freeway. I-69 and I-96 are there now so that will never be brought up again.

Funny thing is, those are on the map too!

Also I like the fact that of all the crazy lines on this map, there's still nothing between Traverse City and I-75. And no love for the UP either; it looks like the planners at the time thought the Thumb should be more connected than Marquette or Houghton/Hancock.

[rhen_var]

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

I really wish the east/west UP freeway had been built.  The short expressway segment near Gladstone is just a tantalizing taste of what could have been.

[Flint1979]

Just an interesting little map I posted to MichiganHighways.org this morning:

• Projected 1980 Michigan Freeway System (1961)

Interesting to see what energetic highway planners from 1961 envisioned while hopped up on too much coffee and cigarettes and without little things like "environmental mitigation" or "economic justice" clouding their too-vivid imaginations... 

I really wish the east/west UP freeway had been built.  The short expressway segment near Gladstone is just a tantalizing taste of what could have been.

Why? Traffic volumes don't warrant it and there is no place you are going to get to that much faster than if it was a freeway.

[sprjus4]

^ Given the distance of 150 miles, you should shave off about 30 minutes of travel time assuming a 75 mph speed limit.

So there is some time saving involve. But I do agree that the traffic volumes do not warrant it.

[Flint1979]

^ Given the distance of 150 miles, you should shave off about 30 minutes of travel time assuming a 75 mph speed limit.

So there is some time saving involve. But I do agree that the traffic volumes do not warrant it.

A lot of traffic on US-2 is doing about 70-75 mph already. The U.P. would be the least populated state if it was it's own state.

[Flint1979]

Unless you positively have be in Saginaw stay away from the city there have been shootings in various spots of the city today.

[Flint1979]

Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.

[Terry Shea]

Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.

Yikes!  I stop there for gas quite often.

[Flint1979]

Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.

Yikes!  I stop there for gas quite often.

It's not a bad area or anything I think they were just trying to get away and of course didn't. I mean there are 5 gas stations, multiple restaurants, the outlet mall and everything. The two exits I wouldn't get off at knowing how the area is but of course if I wasn't from the area I probably wouldn't know this but exit 149 and exit 151. 149 is M-46 and 151 is M-81 but both lead you through some real rough areas of Saginaw, going east of I-75 is fine though.

[skluth]

^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.

Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.

I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization.  At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal.  That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation.  I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted.  But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan. 

Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism.  If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?

Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.

I'll answer anyway.  It's an apples to oranges comparison.  There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers.  For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have.  It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have.  But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't.  I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways.  So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is.  But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it.  Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited:  https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/

1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii

Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states.  So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states.  That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not.  It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.

Southern California has a bunch of toll roads and I have the transponder receipts to prove it. Texas has several toll roads, especially around Dallas and Houston along with that thing around Austin that few use. Virginia has a few toll roads, notably around Richmond and DC. So that's five out of ten with those five in the top six.

[Terry Shea]

^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.

Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.

I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization.  At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal.  That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation.  I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted.  But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan. 

Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism.  If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?

Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.

I'll answer anyway.  It's an apples to oranges comparison.  There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers.  For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have.  It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have.  But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't.  I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways.  So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is.  But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it.  Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited:  https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/

1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii

Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states.  So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states.  That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not.  It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.

Southern California has a bunch of toll roads and I have the transponder receipts to prove it. Texas has several toll roads, especially around Dallas and Houston along with that thing around Austin that few use. Virginia has a few toll roads, notably around Richmond and DC. So that's five out of ten with those five in the top six.

Eyeballing my atlas I'm not seeing any that you mentioned.  They must be very short in length.  The point is you can easily transverse these states without paying tolls.

[Terry Shea]

Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.

Yikes!  I stop there for gas quite often.

It's not a bad area or anything I think they were just trying to get away and of course didn't. I mean there are 5 gas stations, multiple restaurants, the outlet mall and everything. The two exits I wouldn't get off at knowing how the area is but of course if I wasn't from the area I probably wouldn't know this but exit 149 and exit 151. 149 is M-46 and 151 is M-81 but both lead you through some real rough areas of Saginaw, going east of I-75 is fine though.

No, I was just thinking that I could have been caught right in the middle of that.

[Flint1979]

Looks like they caught some suspects involved in the Saginaw shooting on I-75 in Birch Run.

Yikes!  I stop there for gas quite often.

It's not a bad area or anything I think they were just trying to get away and of course didn't. I mean there are 5 gas stations, multiple restaurants, the outlet mall and everything. The two exits I wouldn't get off at knowing how the area is but of course if I wasn't from the area I probably wouldn't know this but exit 149 and exit 151. 149 is M-46 and 151 is M-81 but both lead you through some real rough areas of Saginaw, going east of I-75 is fine though.

No, I was just thinking that I could have been caught right in the middle of that.

Yeah that too. I remember the rock throwing incident at Dodge Road and thinking that could have been me.

[Rothman]

^ Nobody implied that toll roads encourage more tourism. What is implied is that toll roads don't impact or have minimal impact on tourism.

Now, you are implying that toll roads decrease tourism, but haven't provided any credible sources. No one is forcing you to, as you seem to think, but it helps to make your argument more credible and belivable.

I think MDOT is a pretty relevant, credible source, despite my usual disdain for the organization.  At any rate, my opinion was and is that tourism would suffer in Michigan, even if the impact may be minimal.  That is my opinion and it doesn't need any citation.  I didn't state or imply that tourism would fall off the map if toll roads were enacted.  But if you were to poll tourist destinations in say northern Michigan, I'm quite certain they'd be close to 100% against introducing toll roads in Michigan. 

Meanwhile, this statement by Rothman is ridiculous and absolutely seems to be implying that toll roads will bring in more tourism.  If that isn't what he's stating than why make the statement?

Interesting that they made the statement about how tolls MAY discourage tourism...but hardly an extensive discussion on the subject, especially with the counterexamples we've brought up here of states with extensive toll roads that yet pull in more tourists than MI.

I'll answer anyway.  It's an apples to oranges comparison.  There is a myriad of factors involved in tourism numbers.  For one thing Michigan doesn't have the great year-round weather states like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii have.  It doesn't have a great number of National Parks like Utah, Arizona and California have.  But you can't simply say that Michigan does less tourism than New York because New York imposes tolls on a few roadways and Michigan doesn't.  I have no doubt that New York would have even a FEW more visitors if they removed the tolls from their roadways.  So I have no idea why Rothman went down this road except to use it as a smokescreen, because that's all it is.  But since he did go down that road, let's continue down it.  Vivid Maps lists the following 10 states as the most visited:  https://vividmaps.com/most-visited-us-states/

1. California
2. Florida
3. Nevada
4. Texas
5. New York
6. Virginia
7. South Carolina
8. Arizona
9. Georgia
10. Hawaii

Now some of these states have toll bridges like Michigan does, but I believe only Florida and New York have actual toll roads out of these 10 states.  So, it would seem reasonable that these tourist friendly states, along with the tourism industry in these states are wary of chasing away visitors and discouraging tourists from visiting these states.  That is my opinion, and frankly I don't care much at this point whether you agree with it or not.  It is a reasonable opinion and it is my opinion.

Southern California has a bunch of toll roads and I have the transponder receipts to prove it. Texas has several toll roads, especially around Dallas and Houston along with that thing around Austin that few use. Virginia has a few toll roads, notably around Richmond and DC. So that's five out of ten with those five in the top six.

Eyeballing my atlas I'm not seeing any that you mentioned.  They must be very short in length.  The point is you can easily transverse these states without paying tolls.

I suppose, but last time I was in Texas, you'll find toll roads as the direct route to wherever your destination lies due to being critical links in urban areas.  I ended up on the PGBT that way.

[sprjus4]

Dallas and Houston have a number of toll roads that stretch for 30+ miles in many cases.

They are definitely not "small" .

How about Orlando, FL? Their freeway network is entirely toll roads with the exception of I-4.

[Terry Shea]

Dallas and Houston have a number of toll roads that stretch for 30+ miles in many cases.

They are definitely not "small" .

How about Orlando, FL? Their freeway network is entirely toll roads with the exception of I-4.

Once again, eyeballing the atlas they were not apparent.  I see them now in metro areas, but they are indeed short and easily avoided by travelers.  I've driven through Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin many times and never had to pay a toll.  As for Florida, once again, I included it as one of the tourist states with tolls.  Why do you keep trying to start something over nothing?