Michigan Notes

[The Ghostbuster]

Would expanding the ramps from one lane to two be an option? Or do traffic demands not warrant it? I would be strongly against removing any of the ramps, though.

[Terry Shea]

^ Either tear it down or spend even more money rehabilitating it. Tearing down was the better option.

$37 million for a not-so-merry-go-round?  I'll pass!

[sprjus4]

^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?

[KelleyCook]

^ Either tear it down or spend even more money rehabilitating it. Tearing down was the better option.

$37 million for a not-so-merry-go-round?  I'll pass!

You're going to hate that I strongly suggested they do the same to the Bus I-75 / Odpyke Rd grade seperation in Bloomfield Twp.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.60529/-83.24696

They wanted to remove an on ramp due to weaving.  I said tear it all down and replace it with a roundabout.

Neither Truck and Bus nor Pontiac East Assembly are there anymore.  So no need to rehab the bridges while reconfiguring the old intersection.  Time to nuke it.

[Terry Shea]

^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?

How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require?  And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.

[sprjus4]

^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?

How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require?  And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.

You're comparing a surface roundabout to a bridge structure. The maintenance is going to be far more involved and costly on a bridge vs. a roundabout.

[triplemultiplex]

Speaking of going in circles, these same boring arguments over roundabouts!!

[wanderer2575]

You're going to hate that I strongly suggested they do the same to the Bus I-75 / Odpyke Rd grade seperation in Bloomfield Twp.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.60529/-83.24696

They wanted to remove an on ramp due to weaving.  I said tear it all down and replace it with a roundabout.

Neither Truck and Bus nor Pontiac East Assembly are there anymore.  So no need to rehab the bridges while reconfiguring the old intersection.  Time to nuke it.

I'm actually not opposed to that idea, but I don't think it's so simple because it would be a five-leg roundabout with all legs carrying a decent amount of traffic.  (I know there's at least one five-leg roundabout in Michigan but a couple legs carry little or nearly no traffic.)  I think there's room to put a larger-than-usual roundabout a bit northeast of where BL I-75 currently overpasses Opdyke Road, but I wonder what the traffic modeling would look like.  Another idea is to break it into two roundabouts -- one for Square Lake Road and Opdyke Road, and one east of there for Square Lake Road and the ramps to/from I-75.

[Terry Shea]

^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?

How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require?  And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.

You're comparing a surface roundabout to a bridge structure. The maintenance is going to be far more involved and costly on a bridge vs. a roundabout.

I'm not comparing anything.  You only gave one side of the equation.

[jzn110]

^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?

How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require?  And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.

You're comparing a surface roundabout to a bridge structure. The maintenance is going to be far more involved and costly on a bridge vs. a roundabout.

I'm not comparing anything.  You only gave one side of the equation.

You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?

[vegas1962]

You're going to hate that I strongly suggested they do the same to the Bus I-75 / Odpyke Rd grade seperation in Bloomfield Twp.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.60529/-83.24696

They wanted to remove an on ramp due to weaving.  I said tear it all down and replace it with a roundabout.

Neither Truck and Bus nor Pontiac East Assembly are there anymore.  So no need to rehab the bridges while reconfiguring the old intersection.  Time to nuke it.

I'm actually not opposed to that idea, but I don't think it's so simple because it would be a five-leg roundabout with all legs carrying a decent amount of traffic.  (I know there's at least one five-leg roundabout in Michigan but a couple legs carry little or nearly no traffic.)  I think there's room to put a larger-than-usual roundabout a bit northeast of where BL I-75 currently overpasses Opdyke Road, but I wonder what the traffic modeling would look like.  Another idea is to break it into two roundabouts -- one for Square Lake Road and Opdyke Road, and one east of there for Square Lake Road and the ramps to/from I-75.

There's still plenty of business (hotels, stores, etc.) and residential development along Opdyke, and this doesn't begin to discuss the high speed of traffic exiting from I-75 onto Square Lake.  Mixing a roundabout into Square Lake's traffic counts and freeway speeds at Opdyke will no doubt cause panic stops and backups that will cascade back onto I-75, making an already-congested area worse.  I think putting a roundabout there is a disaster waiting to happen.

[wanderer2575]

You're going to hate that I strongly suggested they do the same to the Bus I-75 / Odpyke Rd grade seperation in Bloomfield Twp.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.60529/-83.24696

They wanted to remove an on ramp due to weaving.  I said tear it all down and replace it with a roundabout.

Neither Truck and Bus nor Pontiac East Assembly are there anymore.  So no need to rehab the bridges while reconfiguring the old intersection.  Time to nuke it.

I'm actually not opposed to that idea, but I don't think it's so simple because it would be a five-leg roundabout with all legs carrying a decent amount of traffic.  (I know there's at least one five-leg roundabout in Michigan but a couple legs carry little or nearly no traffic.)  I think there's room to put a larger-than-usual roundabout a bit northeast of where BL I-75 currently overpasses Opdyke Road, but I wonder what the traffic modeling would look like.  Another idea is to break it into two roundabouts -- one for Square Lake Road and Opdyke Road, and one east of there for Square Lake Road and the ramps to/from I-75.

There's still plenty of business (hotels, stores, etc.) and residential development along Opdyke, and this doesn't begin to discuss the high speed of traffic exiting from I-75 onto Square Lake.  Mixing a roundabout into Square Lake's traffic counts and freeway speeds at Opdyke will no doubt cause panic stops and backups that will cascade back onto I-75, making an already-congested area worse.  I think putting a roundabout there is a disaster waiting to happen.

That westbound high-speed traffic needs to slow down somewhere, and right now a lot of it is panic stops from the backups approaching Woodward (M-1).  Lotta high-speed traffic on both directions of Square Lake between Opdyke and Woodward because drivers think they're on the freeway, but you correctly note there are side streets and driveways.  A roundabout might be the thing to slow things down on that stretch.

[wanderer2575]

MDOT sent out a survey for potential fixes to the I-96 / M-39 four level stack.

https://metroquestsurvey.com/5uj2

Eliminating the westbound express exit ramp and the eastbound express entrance ramp should be a no-brainer.

[KelleyCook]

... because drivers think they're on the freeway, but you correctly note there are side streets and driveways.  A roundabout might be the thing to slow things down on that stretch.

Yes, these were my thoughts exactly.  Force EB drivers to slow down before they get to Woodward.  For WB, dissuade people from accelerating to 70+mph through the section with houses.

I've seen multiple accidents where people are slowing down to turn into the Mulberry Square Apartments or the swim club while someone behind them clips them; presumedly because they weren't paying attention as they felt they were on a freeway.

A roundabout would make an effective transition between freeway/non-freeway.

[afguy]

Michigan gets $73M from feds to rebuild 85-year-old moveable Bay City bridge

The federal government is providing Michigan with a $73 million grant toward rebuilding the moveable Lafayette Avenue Bridge over the Saginaw River in Bay City that is in such bad shape it closed 20 times for repairs last year, officials said.

The $73 million award by the Federal Highway Administration will cover the bulk of the $91.25 million rebuild project through the U.S. Department of Transportation's Bridge Investment Program, which was set up as part of the bipartisan infrastructure law enacted in 2021.Federal Highway Administrator Shailen Bhatt, who lives in Troy, said he's taken his family over the Lafayette Avenue Bridge a number of times.

"We vacation and drive through Bay City quite a bit, and I have spent a lot of time up there, so it's really exciting when we get to show how $73 million of our bridge funds are going to replace a bridge that was built in 1938 as part of the New Deal," Bhatt said.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/04/13/michigan-gets-73m-from-feds-to-rebuild-85-year-old-moveable-bay-city-bridge/70108710007/

[kernals12]

Was the massive interchange at I-696 and Mound Road meant for a never-built freeway along Mound or is it just a really busy intersection?

[The Ghostbuster]

There was to be a Mound Rd. Freeway, though it was never built. Some information is located here: http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-053.html.

[Terry Shea]

^ And how much would have rehabilitation or replacement cost, plus maintenance on the bridge over the next few decades?

How much maintenace does a stupid merry-go-round require?  And knowing MDOT, they'll probably wait 5-10 years, tear out the merry-go-round and put something equally as stupid but more expensive in its place.

You're comparing a surface roundabout to a bridge structure. The maintenance is going to be far more involved and costly on a bridge vs. a roundabout.

I'm not comparing anything.  You only gave one side of the equation.

You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?

Of course I hate roundabouts!  Everyone I know hates roundabouts!  And I hate it when the government wastes money!  Here's a roundabout that was just built near where I live.  Lake Eastbrook used to be a 4-lane road.  Then they wasted taxpayer money by downsizing it to a 3-lane road.  Now they wasted more money downsizing it to a 2-lane boulevard with extremely narrow lanes, and an extremely stupid, narrow, not-so-merry-go-round at Sparks Dr.  There's a shopping mall and a lot of businesses along this stretch.  Delivery trucks have to get in and out, but boulevard and the roundabout are way too dinky for a truck to properly navigate.  There are pedestrian crossings at each end of the unmerry-go-round, further complicating matters.  There's a sidewalk on the mall side of the circular disaster that suddenly ends for no apparent reason.  For a pedestrian heading north toward 28th St., the person would have to use the crosswalk and cross at the entrance/exit to the Pi Hole on Lake Eastbrook Blvd., use the crosswalk to cross Sparks Dr., and then use the crosswalk at the other end of the circle of insanity to continue using the sidewalk.  Brilliant planning!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3761+Lake+Eastbrook+Blvd+SE,+Grand+Rapids,+MI+49546/@42.9159399,-85.5748791,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS9ZZUkp9lHfRekpJI0AD5Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DS9ZZUkp9lHfRekpJI0AD5Q%26cb_client%3Dsearch.gws-prod.gps%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D338.78214%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x88184d6ce966eaa7:0x3bf92cc03f9f1395!2s3761+Lake+Eastbrook+Blvd+SE,+Grand+Rapids,+MI+49546!3b1!8m2!3d42.9159691!4d-85.5748286!10e5!3m5!1s0x88184d6ce966eaa7:0x3bf92cc03f9f1395!8m2!3d42.9159691!4d-85.5748286!10e5

Here's another "gem" on Pfeiffer Woods Dr!

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8928528,-85.5961204,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shEM6h3rqtYZ9rzdPjN7ibw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DhEM6h3rqtYZ9rzdPjN7ibw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D300.41745%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

I doubt Pheiffer Woods Dr. gets more than a few hundred cars/day.  The other "street" (Mountain Laurel) at the stupid-go-round is nothing but a driveway that services an employee parking lot that never has more than 4-5 vehicles in it and a dumpster at the end of the drive.  Once again, great planning and a total waste of taxpayer monies!

I have never seen any reason to build such a stupid contraption!  I have not found any that are necessary or effective.  And now I hear that in Europe they're starting to realize how ineffective they are and are adding traffic signals to them.  Of course, Rothman would probably like to add toll booths to them!

[JREwing78]

You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?

Of course I hate roundabouts!  Everyone I know hates roundabouts!  And I hate it when the government wastes money!

In other words:

"I hate it!" = "Government waste"

"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"

[sprjus4]

I doubt Pheiffer Woods Dr. gets more than a few hundred cars/day.  The other "street" (Mountain Laurel) at the stupid-go-round is nothing but a driveway that services an employee parking lot that never has more than 4-5 vehicles in it and a dumpster at the end of the drive.  Once again, great planning and a total waste of taxpayer monies!

That example appears to have been built apart of a development.

Was your first example a city project or a development project?

You know not all road construction is city / taxpayer dollar?

I have never seen any reason to build such a stupid contraption!  I have not found any that are necessary or effective.  And now I hear that in Europe they're starting to realize how ineffective they are and are adding traffic signals to them.

They definitely have their place and can be very effective, especially as a traffic-calming device and also is more efficient than, for instance, a 4 way stop that has a lot of traffic.

But to each their own, I suppose.

Of course, Rothman would probably like to add toll booths to them!

wut

[Terry Shea]

You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?

Of course I hate roundabouts!  Everyone I know hates roundabouts!  And I hate it when the government wastes money!

In other words:

"I hate it!" = "Government waste"

"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"

You might try reading and comprehending the rest of what I posted.

[Terry Shea]

I doubt Pheiffer Woods Dr. gets more than a few hundred cars/day.  The other "street" (Mountain Laurel) at the stupid-go-round is nothing but a driveway that services an employee parking lot that never has more than 4-5 vehicles in it and a dumpster at the end of the drive.  Once again, great planning and a total waste of taxpayer monies!

That example appears to have been built apart of a development.

Was your first example a city project or a development project?

You know not all road construction is city / taxpayer dollar?

I have never seen any reason to build such a stupid contraption!  I have not found any that are necessary or effective.  And now I hear that in Europe they're starting to realize how ineffective they are and are adding traffic signals to them.

They definitely have their place and can be very effective, especially as a traffic-calming device and also is more efficient than, for instance, a 4 way stop that has a lot of traffic.

But to each their own, I suppose.

Of course, Rothman would probably like to add toll booths to them!

wut

The first one was a City of Grand Rapids project.

[sprjus4]

You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?

Of course I hate roundabouts!  Everyone I know hates roundabouts!  And I hate it when the government wastes money!

In other words:

"I hate it!" = "Government waste"

"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"

You might try reading and comprehending the rest of what I posted.

I did. You just say all the projects are wasteful, without looking at any data, besides the fact you hate roundabouts with a burning passion.

[Flint1979]

If you hate roundabouts do not and I repeat do not travel on Baldwin Road north of I-75, also don't get off at the Lee Road exit on US-23.

[Terry Shea]

You just really, really hate roundabouts, don't you?

Of course I hate roundabouts!  Everyone I know hates roundabouts!  And I hate it when the government wastes money!

In other words:

"I hate it!" = "Government waste"

"I love it!" = "Sound fiscal management"

You might try reading and comprehending the rest of what I posted.

I did. You just say all the projects are wasteful, without looking at any data, besides the fact you hate roundabouts with a burning passion.

First off, I was responding to JREwing78, not to you.  I had no problem with what you had posted.  Now I do, because both you and JREwing78 appear to be deliberately misconstruing what I stated and/or deliberately editing my comments to remove context.  To be clear, yes, I generally hate roundabouts.  I used the closest roundabouts to where I live as examples of why I and probably 95% of the residents in this area hate them so much.  That's not to say that an unmerry-go-round that is properly designed and constructed can't work in certain locations and situations, but the whole concept is being used as a catch all.  They're building them where they are certainly not necessary, needed, wanted or make any sense.  There was absolutely no reason for that Pfeiffer Woods Dr. roundabout to be built, and there was absolutely no reason to waste money to narrow Lake Eastbrook Blvd from 4 lanes to 3 and then to waste more money to narrow it again from 3 lanes to 2 extremely narrow lanes, and put a dinky, narrow tight turned roundabout with entrance and exit points right on top of each other.  All they've done is to waste an awful lot of money making the entire drive and/or walk much more unsafe.