Michigan Notes

[Flint1979]

In Sault Ste. Marie they don't use the yellow NO RE-ENTRY TO USA sign but rather use a LAST EXIT BEFORE FARE sign on the Easterday Avenue exit sign.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.4889431,-84.3741443,3a,49.2y,21.88h,102.56t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIC3Qk2I5fhr7xIYFR8lGmA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DIC3Qk2I5fhr7xIYFR8lGmA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D291.1625%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[The Ghostbuster]

Is the International Bridge adequate as a two-lane bridge? I would have constructed it as a four-lane bridge.

[wanderer2575]

Is the International Bridge adequate as a two-lane bridge? I would have constructed it as a four-lane bridge.

Yes, it's adequate.  There are no backups because of insufficient lanes.  Any backups are due to more traffic than the immigration booths can handle.  You can make the damn bridge 20 lanes and that won't speed up anything.  Ditto the Blue Water Bridge, Ambassador Bridge, Detroit-Windsor Tunnel, and all other international crossings.

[triplemultiplex]

If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!"

[roadman65]

Do Michiganders have a specific name for the infamous backlit cube that is on most stoplights and flashing beacons featuring traffic control icons?

I always found that suspended cube to be fascinating when I visited there in 08.

[Flint1979]

Do Michiganders have a specific name for the infamous backlit cube that is on most stoplights and flashing beacons featuring traffic control icons?

I always found that suspended cube to be fascinating when I visited there in 08.

Not that I know of.

[Flint1979]

If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!"

I was up in the U.P. on Saturday driving around. I have a place in Cedarville so I stopped there for awhile and hung out at Cattails Cove which is a bar in Cedarville. After I left there I wanted to take a little drive before I started heading back home because I had to work the next day so I couldn't stay. So I started east on M-134 and then it hit me on how remote the U.P. really is. Like not seeing other cars for miles, seeing nothing but remote forest and then some lake views which are nice. I then headed up M-48 from it's eastern terminus and followed that back to Mackinac Trail. But in reality that part of the U.P. is so remote that a two lane highway would work fine. I had to take Mackinac Trail for 11 miles since I was going southbound I didn't take M-48 to Rudyard and get on there but instead turned left and got on at exit 359. I was able to do 70-75 mph in the stretch of Mackinac Trail I was on and when I got on I-75 SB there were no cars at all in front of me or behind me for as far as I could see. This highway is indeed one of the least traveled stretches of Interstate highway in the country Sault Ste. Marie is a somewhat decent sized city for the U.P. it's a big city but it is isolated from the rest of the state and really isn't very big just big for U.P. standards.

[roadman65]

If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!"

I was up in the U.P. on Saturday driving around. I have a place in Cedarville so I stopped there for awhile and hung out at Cattails Cove which is a bar in Cedarville. After I left there I wanted to take a little drive before I started heading back home because I had to work the next day so I couldn't stay. So I started east on M-134 and then it hit me on how remote the U.P. really is. Like not seeing other cars for miles, seeing nothing but remote forest and then some lake views which are nice. I then headed up M-48 from it's eastern terminus and followed that back to Mackinac Trail. But in reality that part of the U.P. is so remote that a two lane highway would work fine. I had to take Mackinac Trail for 11 miles since I was going southbound I didn't take M-48 to Rudyard and get on there but instead turned left and got on at exit 359. I was able to do 70-75 mph in the stretch of Mackinac Trail I was on and when I got on I-75 SB there were no cars at all in front of me or behind me for as far as I could see. This highway is indeed one of the least traveled stretches of Interstate highway in the country Sault Ste. Marie is a somewhat decent sized city for the U.P. it's a big city but it is isolated from the rest of the state and really isn't very big just big for U.P. standards.

I drove I-75 in 08 north of St. Ignace and I saw one car every two minutes pass the other way. I was amazed at how sparsely populated that part of the state was even on the interstate. 

As far as Sault Ste. Marie goes, I believe it’s because of its larger sister across the border. I’m guessing the majority of patrons crossing the bridge between the two are locals or regional UP residents. Sault Ste. Marie, ON has more action than Sault Ste. Marie, MI and I’m sure many cross the border as simple as us going to the biggest nearby city within our own state.  Most residents near Sault Ste. Marie consider going to Canada as a simple drive up the road.

[Rothman]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

[JREwing78]

If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!"

If not for the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956 and attendant national defense demands, it's unlikely a 4-lane freeway would have been built to Sault Ste. Marie. The US-2 alignment it replaced was plenty adequate for traffic demands of the 1960s, and aside from some modernization would be adequate today absent I-75. We'd likely have seen a 2 or 4-lane St. Ignace bypass, and maybe the last few miles to the Soo north of M-28 would've been 4-laned by now. But it's unlikely much more of that would've materialized; the area has had stable or declining population for the last 50 years.

It's a safe bet absent an Interstate highway Michigan would've have extended a freeway to the Mackinac Bridge. Given MDOT's rapid buildout of US-10 west of Bay City and the US-27 expressway/freeway north to the Bridge, that was clearly their game plan to manage weekend "Up North" traffic from metro Detroit prior to the Interstate act.

Absent a federal mandate, I-75 north of Bay City to Grayling seems unlikely to have made the cut, despite being 15 miles shorter than US-10/US-27. I suspect US-10/US-27 would've managed traffic from metro Detroit "Up North" adequately even today with few changes, aside from safety upgrades and possibly some 6-laning of US-10 around Midland.

US-23 was already 4-laned north of Bay City (albeit as undivided highway); short of Alpena having the influx of folks Traverse City has today, I doubt much would've changed.

US-131 would likely be the same or similar to what it is now; no Federal mandate compelled MDOT to punch a freeway up to Manton. Ditto for US-31, probably.

I also suspect much of the rest of Michigan's freeway network would be similar to today's absent federal mandate. However, with 150 miles of I-75 freeway not built "Up North", MDOT may well have reallocated funding to a Toledo to Jackson connection, or built out US-31 and US-131 farther north, or a more direct Detroit to Chicago connection?

Wisconsin, in the absence of federal mandate and with half of Michigan's population, was understandably slower to bring 4-lane expressways and freeways north. Duluth/Superior wasn't a big enough draw to get a full 4-lane US-53 built until well after 2000. Wausau didn't get an Interstate placard until the 1990s, with US-51 only 4-laned and converted to freeway a few years earlier. Even as a regional destination from the central and western U.P., Green Bay didn't merit having a 4-lane US-41/141 north towards Abrams until the early '90s, with a 4-lane US-41 only reaching completion to Marinette a little over a decade ago.

[roadman65]

The UP probably doesn't need to widen US 2 either, as it's two lanes more than likely handles the needs placed upon it.

I believe only 4 percent of Michigan's general population lives in the UP.

[GaryV]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.

[GaryV]

Absent a federal mandate, I-75 north of Bay City to Grayling seems unlikely to have made the cut, despite being 15 miles shorter than US-10/US-27. I suspect US-10/US-27 would've managed traffic from metro Detroit "Up North" adequately even today with few changes, aside from safety upgrades and possibly some 6-laning of US-10 around Midland.

I concur that the current route of I-75 would not have been built. But US-10 would have to be 6 lanes at least from Bay City to Midland, and probably to Clare. The current I-75 from Bay City to the northern US-23 split is often inadequate at 4 lanes.

The UP probably doesn't need to widen US 2 either, as it's two lanes more than likely handles the needs placed upon it.

I believe only 4 percent of Michigan's general population lives in the UP.

While the population of the UP is small, there's a lot of vacation traffic. US-2 does slow down in sections where there's not enough passing lanes. The same with M-28 and US-41.

[Rothman]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.

I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though.  Just another case of Google Maps sucking.

Thanks for confirming.

[Flint1979]

It's two lanes in each direction from 13 Mile to I-696. They are doing SB this year, they did NB last year to finish up that stretch.

[wanderer2575]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.

I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though.  Just another case of Google Maps sucking.

Thanks for confirming.

Was your intent to exit to 12 Mile Road, 11 Mile Road, or I-696?  Those southbound I-75 exits are closed this year.

[Flint1979]

If were being honest, four lanes for I-75 north of St. Ignace is more a generosity of a previous generation than it is a practical need.
Kind of like I-95 north of Bangor.
"Ah we came this far, let's get this sucker to the border!"

I was up in the U.P. on Saturday driving around. I have a place in Cedarville so I stopped there for awhile and hung out at Cattails Cove which is a bar in Cedarville. After I left there I wanted to take a little drive before I started heading back home because I had to work the next day so I couldn't stay. So I started east on M-134 and then it hit me on how remote the U.P. really is. Like not seeing other cars for miles, seeing nothing but remote forest and then some lake views which are nice. I then headed up M-48 from it's eastern terminus and followed that back to Mackinac Trail. But in reality that part of the U.P. is so remote that a two lane highway would work fine. I had to take Mackinac Trail for 11 miles since I was going southbound I didn't take M-48 to Rudyard and get on there but instead turned left and got on at exit 359. I was able to do 70-75 mph in the stretch of Mackinac Trail I was on and when I got on I-75 SB there were no cars at all in front of me or behind me for as far as I could see. This highway is indeed one of the least traveled stretches of Interstate highway in the country Sault Ste. Marie is a somewhat decent sized city for the U.P. it's a big city but it is isolated from the rest of the state and really isn't very big just big for U.P. standards.

I drove I-75 in 08 north of St. Ignace and I saw one car every two minutes pass the other way. I was amazed at how sparsely populated that part of the state was even on the interstate. 

As far as Sault Ste. Marie goes, I believe it's because of its larger sister across the border. I'm guessing the majority of patrons crossing the bridge between the two are locals or regional UP residents. Sault Ste. Marie, ON has more action than Sault Ste. Marie, MI and I'm sure many cross the border as simple as us going to the biggest nearby city within our own state.  Most residents near Sault Ste. Marie consider going to Canada as a simple drive up the road.

Actually the Lower Peninsula is pretty sparsely populated in the northern part too just the U.P. is even more sparsely populated. Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan is of course the control city up there. The Ontario city is bigger but even that city is sparsely populated like many cities in Canada, it has around 75,000 people which for the area is pretty big but factor in that the Ontario city takes up 86 square miles that's about 872 people per square mile, the Michigan city only takes about 15 square miles and has a population of about 13,000 people  for a density of about the same. So my point is in reality they feel about the same. It just seems like larger Canadian cities take up a lot of land area giving them a bigger city feel sometimes.

I've been across the International Bridge before but the thing is you need a passport or enhanced drivers license to cross which makes it a little more difficult for some people. Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario does have a little more going on around the downtown area than Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan does though.

[Rothman]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.

I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though.  Just another case of Google Maps sucking.

Thanks for confirming.

Was your intent to exit to 12 Mile Road, 11 Mile Road, or I-696?  Those southbound I-75 exits are closed this year.

Nope. 

[Flint1979]

The UP probably doesn't need to widen US 2 either, as it's two lanes more than likely handles the needs placed upon it.

I believe only 4 percent of Michigan's general population lives in the UP.

The 2020 population for the U.P. was 301,609, the population of the state was 10,077,331. You were about dead on, actually it'd be about 2.9% of the population.

[Flint1979]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.

I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though.  Just another case of Google Maps sucking.

Thanks for confirming.

Was your intent to exit to 12 Mile Road, 11 Mile Road, or I-696?  Those southbound I-75 exits are closed this year.

Nope.

It might depend on where you were trying to get on at, the SB service drive is closed in areas.

[GaryV]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.

I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though.  Just another case of Google Maps sucking.

Thanks for confirming.

Another thought on this. Google wouldn't give me directions for getting on SB I-75 at 9 Mile / John R. The SB service drive is open to the entrance ramp, but closed after that. I'm guessing Google wasn't given or couldn't pull the correct closure spot. There may have been something similar in the mainline routing you were attempting.

And from time to time, various sections of metro Detroit freeway construction projects are closed completely for weekends. Part of I-696 will be closed this coming weekend.

[Flint1979]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.

I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though.  Just another case of Google Maps sucking.

Thanks for confirming.

Another thought on this. Google wouldn't give me directions for getting on SB I-75 at 9 Mile / John R. The SB service drive is open to the entrance ramp, but closed after that. I'm guessing Google wasn't given or couldn't pull the correct closure spot. There may have been something similar in the mainline routing you were attempting.

And from time to time, various sections of metro Detroit freeway construction projects are closed completely for weekends. Part of I-696 will be closed this coming weekend.

There is a bridge in Saginaw (Johnson Street Bridge over the Saginaw River) that was closed earlier this year in the Spring. It's now reopen and Google still routes me around it making me turn onto Niagara Street to Genesee Avenue and then going over the river there. What I just said here is just an example of Google not getting it right, it's a minor detour but Google is wrong.

[Flint1979]

Here's another thing about Google and it was discussed on this forum when it happened but I remember a couple years ago there was a traffic backup on I-70 in Denver and Google routed a bunch of cars down a dirt road where the cars proceeded to get stuck. It was around 100 cars that this happened to. Google is right most of the time but there are times where they are completely wrong. In fact I was looking at Google Maps in my area today and noticed a street that Google says is there but it isn't, the street in question is Eastlawn.

Here is a map of the area, Eastlawn does not exist between Broadway and Orange, then dead ends west of Orange.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3879311,-83.9106426,17z?entry=ttu

Don't you think this would be a good place for a No Outlet sign?
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3885834,-83.9123849,3a,75y,357.16h,89.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swU8CwgXvUjnmIKi__cwYQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

[Rothman]

I-75 SB north of I-696 isn't closed due to the modernization project, right?  Google Maps prevented routing down it earlier today.

Not fully closed; 2 lanes are open. But traffic backs up a lot, so Google might have had you avoid it.

I couldn't even force the directions onto I-75 through a via point, though.  Just another case of Google Maps sucking.

Thanks for confirming.

Another thought on this. Google wouldn't give me directions for getting on SB I-75 at 9 Mile / John R. The SB service drive is open to the entrance ramp, but closed after that. I'm guessing Google wasn't given or couldn't pull the correct closure spot. There may have been something similar in the mainline routing you were attempting.

And from time to time, various sections of metro Detroit freeway construction projects are closed completely for weekends. Part of I-696 will be closed this coming weekend.

I was playing around with directions from way northwest -- Waterford, MI to downtown Detroit.  Google was and still is making me get off of I-75 north of I-696 nonetheless.

[JREwing78]

The UP probably doesn't need to widen US 2 either, as it's two lanes more than likely handles the needs placed upon it.

I believe only 4 percent of Michigan's general population lives in the UP.

The 2020 population for the U.P. was 301,609, the population of the state was 10,077,331. You were about dead on, actually it'd be about 2.9% of the population.

Not only that, but 80% of the U.P.'s population lies west of Munising, in the central and western U.P.. Yoopers are more economically tied to Green Bay or Milwaukee (and to a smaller degree Wausau) than downstate Michigan. Likewise, there's significantly greater tourist traffic bubbling up from Wisconsin and Illinois than from lower Michigan, which tends to stay under the bridge.

Only about 60,000 residents reside in the eastern U.P.. It's barely enough to sustain chains like Meijer and Wal-Mart in the Soo. Those closer to St. Ignace are more likely to hop over the bridge to Cheboygan or Petoskey rather than venture north, while folks near Munising or Manistique will go to Marquette or Escanaba instead. Does Soo Ontario see significant shopping traffic from the eastern U.P.? Doubt it.

All of this tends to support the (lack of) traffic on I-75 past St. Ignace.