US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)

[cpzilliacus]

That the former chair of the port authority is saying it's not a good use of port funds is significant. 

In the past, I have not heard of port authority funds have been used to make improvements to the public highway  network in and around Hampton Roads.

That projections will barely be over 20,000 adt in 2035 is significant.

Agreed.  I assume that prospective bondholders will pay attention to that, and possibly a demand higher interest rate?

[froggie]

As I understand it, the bonds being floated are rated BBB...not that much above junk status.

[agentsteel53]

As I understand it, the bonds being floated are rated BBB...not that much above junk status.

hooray for grade inflation.  what is a D class bond?  "investor will immediately be broiled with a flamethrower"?  I hesitate to think of what would earn an F.

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post: Virginia signs $1.4 billion highway deal

State officials announced Thursday that they had signed a $1.4 billion deal to build a highway in southeastern Virginia, prompting criticism from those who say the state's scarce transportation resources should be spent in more heavily traveled corridors.

Gov. Robert F. McDonnell (R) has pushed for the road since he represented the region as a state delegate.

"As recognized by local officials and the General Assembly years ago, there is a clear and critical need for the new U.S. 460,"  McDonnell said in a statement announcing that the state had signed a contract with US 460 Mobility Partners, a partnership of Ferrovial Agroman and American Infrastructure.

The highway will extend for 55 miles between Petersburg and Suffolk, running parallel to U.S. 460, a four-lane road along which average volumes range from 9,200 to 17,000 vehicles a day. The state estimates that the new highway, a toll road that will not replace the existing toll-free route, will initially carry 5,000 to 6,000 cars and trucks a day.

[cpzilliacus]

WTOP Radio: Congressional reps. speak out against Route 460 in Va.

U.S. congressional representatives from Virginia are speaking out against Route 460, the new road approved by the state.

The Panama Canal is being expanded to handle more and bigger ships by 2015, prompting Virginia to approve the road.

Route 460 is a $1.4 billion, 55-mile highway between Petersburg and Suffolk. Its purpose is to help vehicular traffic in and out of the Port of Virginia, which is also being expanded to handle the new ships.

Democratic Virginia Reps. Bobby Scott, Jim Moran and Gerry Connolly say the money would be better spent on fixing and expanding the overcrowded roads in northern Virginia.

[74/171FAN]

I removed anything related to NE2's joke.  I apologize for not noticing this statement earlier as it was slightly buried in an otherwise informative post.

-Mark

[Alps]

I removed anything related to NE2's joke.  I apologize for not noticing this statement earlier as it was slightly buried in an otherwise informative post.

-Mark

I never knew your name was Mark.

[74/171FAN]

Yeah I think that is a result of myself not posting anywhere near as much as I used to for various reasons and for never making it to a road meet, but I am still kind of shocked you did not know my name.

[codyg1985]

Washington Post: Controversy surrounds Va. plan to build $1.4 billion toll road

It would run for 55miles in southeastern Virginia between Petersburg and Suffolk, parallel to U.S. 460, a four-lane road along which average volume ranges from 9,200 to 17,000 vehicles a day. The state estimates that the new highway, a toll road that would not replace the existing toll-free route, would initially carry 5,000 to 6,000 cars and trucks a day.

It only carries 17,000 vehicles per day now? Even if a large percentage of those are trucks, borrowing a big ton of money with just-above junk status bonds to replace a road that currently sees less than 20,000 AADT seems a bit fishy to me. Maybe it would be justified from a regional connectivity perspective, but I-64 seems to already do that job.

[NJRoadfan]

It only carries 17,000 vehicles per day now? Even if a large percentage of those are trucks, borrowing a big ton of money with just-above junk status bonds to replace a road that currently sees less than 20,000 AADT seems a bit fishy to me.

Kind of makes you wonder how much money the governor and his cronies will see from this project. Do any of the local rags do something that resembles investigative journalism? This project is ripe for it.

[3467]

Does the state of VA have to back this bond? Illinois tollway studied some low volume toll roads but none have ever been feasible. My guess is even if the trucks are forced off the cars will stay on the old road. It is still 4 lanes.
I would make it 3 lanes with a center turn lane in the small towns it goes through

[NE2]

If the military wants the road, they should pull the troops out of pointless wars and build it themselves.

Gratuitous statement removed, left meat of opinion

[3467]

Does the military want the road or is that just something its supporters are using?

[NE2]

Does the military want the road or is that just something its supporters are using?

Probably the latter (Beltway: "That US-460 segment is on the NHS and the STRAHNET"). My understanding is that US 460 was added to STRAHNET to give an alternate route in case the tunnels are bombed. But if that happens they can simply ban normal citizens from US 460.

PS: Beltway is wrong about US 58 west of Suffolk not being on STRAHNET.

[froggie]

The military (Navy in particular) has had some interest in the road in a general sense, but not a lot.  The big push for a new 460 has come from the Port of Virginia.  That they're even contributing $250 million to the project is of some interest since I don't recall them doing anything similar at least over the past decade.

[cpzilliacus]

The military (Navy in particular) has had some interest in the road in a general sense, but not a lot.

For as large as the various U.S. Navy activities are in and near Hampton Roads, I still believe they are relatively small when compared to the various commercial port activities nearby.

The big push for a new 460 has come from the Port of Virginia.  That they're even contributing $250 million to the project is of some interest since I don't recall them doing anything similar at least over the past decade.

That makes a lot of sense. 

Highway access to intermodal facilities, be they seaports, river ports, pipeline terminals, railroad terminals or even airports are very important to their economic success.

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post op-ed: Bob McDonnell's "Road for Nobody"  near Hampton Roads insults Northern Virginia

A few years ago, Alaska's proposed "Bridge to Nowhere"  became a national symbol of wasteful government spending on little-needed projects.

Now Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) has pushed through his own version of this embarrassment, a $1.4 billion highway outside Hampton Roads that qualifies as a "Road for Nobody."

[froggie]

An argument I've been using elsewhere on this project recently (including on that latest Post article):  a new 460 doesn't do drivers (including and especially the trucks) any good if they can't get to it.  Getting over there from all but the newest APM terminal (i.e. pretty much all of Norfolk) still involves crossing the Elizabeth River.  Even with the Midtown expansion that has just started, the tunnels and High Rise Bridge will still be hopelessly jammed many hours of the day.  VDOT would have done much better putting that money towards improvements closer into Hampton Roads.

[cpzilliacus]

An argument I've been using elsewhere on this project recently (including on that latest Post article):  a new 460 doesn't do drivers (including and especially the trucks) any good if they can't get to it.

Excellent point.  I had not carefully considered the east end of this project until I read your comment above.  It looks like the improved (toll) 460 begins/ends at the partial "beltway" around the "downtown" area of Suffolk. And beyond your (valid) comment above, U.S. 13/U.S. 58/U.S. 460 between the east end of the "beltway and the I-664/I-64 interchange is only an arterial or maybe an urban expressway (with intersections at-grade).  A distinctive feature of this section of highway  is the overhead walkway linking the eastbound side of the weigh/inspection station with the scalehouse building on the westbound side (usually, those connections are done with a pedestrian tunnel - I have not seen a structure like this anywhere else in Virginia).

Getting over there from all but the newest APM terminal (i.e. pretty much all of Norfolk) still involves crossing the Elizabeth River.  Even with the Midtown expansion that has just started, the tunnels and High Rise Bridge will still be hopelessly jammed many hours of the day.  VDOT would have done much better putting that money towards improvements closer into Hampton Roads.

I suppose the theory is that those improvements in Hampton Roads will all be PPTA projects, and VDOT will not have to spend transportation trust fund money on them.  That might just qualify as "wishful thinking" or "faith-based transportation planning."

[froggie]

It does.  Some years back, VDOT received two unsolicited proposals through PPTA to build the full 3rd Crossing project (Patriot's Crossing, widening all of 664 including MMBT, and the Craney Island Connector).  VDOT didn't act at the time in part because the proposals still required them to put down about $1B (give or take a few hundred million) in state funding.  The financial situation has only gotten worse since then, so the chances of getting these projects build WITHOUT spending TTF money have already been shown to be ZERO.

[cpzilliacus]

It does.  Some years back, VDOT received two unsolicited proposals through PPTA to build the full 3rd Crossing project (Patriot's Crossing, widening all of 664 including MMBT, and the Craney Island Connector).  VDOT didn't act at the time in part because the proposals still required them to put down about $1B (give or take a few hundred million) in state funding.  The financial situation has only gotten worse since then, so the chances of getting these projects build WITHOUT spending TTF money have already been shown to be ZERO.

Yeah, I remember this collection of projects now. 

Especially the Patriot's Crossing project.  From the maps, this looks like a very expensive undertaking, including the middle-of-the-water interchange.

If memory serves, and if this gets constructed, this would result in tolls on all of the Hampton Roads crossings.

[froggie]

Virginia Pilot article from today about an updated estimate for amount of wetlands the US 460 project will take out, and how it could jeopardize the project.

[froggie]

According to today's Virginia Pilot, the Governor-elect has indicated that he'll pull the plug on the new US 460 project.

[1995hoo]

According to today's Virginia Pilot, the Governor-elect has indicated that he'll pull the plug on the new US 460 project.

The following sentence from that article strikes me as eminently sensible regardless of one's political viewpoint or one's viewpoint about this particular project's merits:

McAuliffe said he doesn't think the state should spend taxpayer dollars on the project until it's "100 percent sure" that the federal permit will be issued.

[hbelkins]

Are they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

According to today's Virginia Pilot, the Governor-elect has indicated that he'll pull the plug on the new US 460 project.

The following sentence from that article strikes me as eminently sensible regardless of one's political viewpoint or one's viewpoint about this particular project's merits:

McAuliffe said he doesn't think the state should spend taxpayer dollars on the project until it's "100 percent sure" that the federal permit will be issued.