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Delaware

Started by Alex, February 11, 2009, 10:22:27 PM

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Alex4897

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 09, 2014, 11:06:49 PM
(as IMO they should be in both Maryland and Delaware)

As a local who uses I-95 pretty much everyday, I'd rather not fork over change anytime I want to use the road to head south.
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cpzilliacus

Quote from: Alex4897 on November 10, 2014, 02:02:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 09, 2014, 11:06:49 PM
(as IMO they should be in both Maryland and Delaware)

As a local who uses I-95 pretty much everyday, I'd rather not fork over change anytime I want to use the road to head south.

So use E-ZPass - or take U.S. 40.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Laura

Where is the official end of DE 273?
I found eastbound end signage in two places: at the intersection with 141 and 9 and at the intersection with just 9.




Alps

Quote from: Laura on November 11, 2014, 10:51:30 AM
Where is the official end of DE 273?
I found eastbound end signage in two places: at the intersection with 141 and 9 and at the intersection with just 9.

It ends multiplexed with 9 east of 141.

mtantillo

Quote from: mrsman on October 19, 2014, 10:14:36 PM
Basically, the higher the toll, the more people want to avoid the toll.

The lower the extra distance to bypass the toll, the greater the number of people who will bypass the toll.

The Newark, DE toll crossing is relatively high ($4) and is fairly easy way to avoid, so there will be a lot of shunpiking. 
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 09, 2014, 11:06:49 PM
Quote from: Alex on November 09, 2014, 10:31:35 AM
Technically the $4 toll covers the entire 11-mile Delaware Turnpike, not just the segment between the state line and Exit 1. Same is said for the Susquehanna River Bridge toll for the JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland.

I would buy that if the ramp tolls were still there (as IMO they should be in both Maryland and Delaware).   

But given that the ramp tolls in Delaware were removed in the mid-1970's and in Maryland in the early 1980's, then there is just one link on each highway that is actually tolled (and Maryland made matters worse by only tolling one direction at that one point).


Keep in mind that a lot of the traffic passing through DE on I-95 is not local, but long haul traffic. I drive up north to NJ/NY/New England fairly often for one reason or another. Using the "normal" route...I-95, I-295, NJ Turnpike, Lincoln Tunnel, it costs $66.10 in tolls ($13 Lincoln Tunnel EB, $12.55 NJ Turnpike each way, $4 Delaware Memorial Bridge WB, $4 Delaware Turnpike each way, $8 Tydings Bridge NB, $4 Fort McHenry Tunnel each way). If you pay with E-ZPass, you get a $2 or $4 discount at the Holland Tunnel depending on time of day. Regardless, $66.10, $64.10, or $62.10 is A LOT of money for tolls. Can you really blame people for looking for ways to cut that cost down a bit? Delaware has the unfortunate distinction of being the only one of those that is very easy to bypass.

The $8 at the Tyding Bridge is also fairly simple to avoid, but requires a little upfront planning. You need to get a Maryland E-ZPass account and purchase the "Hatem Bridge Plan" for $20. This allows unlimited use of the parallel Hatem Bridge on US 40 for one year. Hmm...$8 per trip, or $20 per year with a fairly simple detour? Sign me up for the latter, please. Anyone can do it, regardless of where you live, but of course Maryland doesn't exacly want a lot of people to sign up for it, so they don't advertise it much outside of the local area of Harford and Cecil counties. I took the requisite 3 trips to break even within 6 weeks of the plan's renewal date this year, giving me "free" passage until next June.

So doing the Hatem detour one way and the I-95 Neward detour both ways saves $16. Then use I-295 in NJ instead of the Turnpike as far as Exit 4 or 7A and you save another $2.80 to $4.50 each way. Get off the Turnpike at Exit 11 to US 22 to Pulaski Skyway (well, when it is open EB), and you save even more on Turnpike tolls. All combined, it takes maybe 20/25 minutes longer, essentially keeps the same route, and saves $37 in round trip tolls. For someone who doesn't drive the route often, it seems silly to bypass the tolls like that. But for someone who travels that way every few weeks, the savings adds up very quickly.   

Alex

Quote from: Laura on November 11, 2014, 10:51:30 AM
Where is the official end of DE 273?
I found eastbound end signage in two places: at the intersection with 141 and 9 and at the intersection with just 9.


I posted about this also on October 3. I based my earlier comments on the new end sign based upon an email from Bob Chessick on August 24th:

QuoteDelDOT rebuilt the intersection of 273 and 141 recently. New signage reflects this as the new eastern end of DE-273 with DE-9 continuing down Frenchtown Road solo. Interestingly they relocated some older signs rather than all new installs. Photos soon.

However I also saw the remaining DE 273 shields. Thankfully the second of two narrow width shields for DE 273 remains opposite the east end.

The overlap was created when DE 9 was routed around New Castle.

OracleUsr

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 11, 2014, 12:31:17 AM
Quote from: Alex4897 on November 10, 2014, 02:02:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 09, 2014, 11:06:49 PM
(as IMO they should be in both Maryland and Delaware)

As a local who uses I-95 pretty much everyday, I'd rather not fork over change anytime I want to use the road to head south.

So use E-ZPass - or take U.S. 40.

Isn't Eastbound 40 towards Havre de Grace also tolled across the Susquehanna?  Or is this another section you're referring to?
Anti-center-tabbing, anti-sequential-numbering, anti-Clearview BGS FAN

Alps

Quote from: Alex on November 11, 2014, 10:19:32 PM
Quote from: Laura on November 11, 2014, 10:51:30 AM
Where is the official end of DE 273?
I found eastbound end signage in two places: at the intersection with 141 and 9 and at the intersection with just 9.


I posted about this also on October 3. I based my earlier comments on the new end sign based upon an email from Bob Chessick on August 24th:

QuoteDelDOT rebuilt the intersection of 273 and 141 recently. New signage reflects this as the new eastern end of DE-273 with DE-9 continuing down Frenchtown Road solo. Interestingly they relocated some older signs rather than all new installs. Photos soon.

However I also saw the remaining DE 273 shields. Thankfully the second of two narrow width shields for DE 273 remains opposite the east end.

The overlap was created when DE 9 was routed around New Castle.
New signage reflects the logical end. Has the official definition followed suit?

NE2

I don't know if DelDOT has official definitions. The closest thing I can find is the traffic counts, which even [http://www.deldot.gov/information/pubs_forms/manuals/traffic_counts/2001/pdf/ts2001_21_41.pdf in 2001] showed 273 ending at 141 (typoed as 41). (Yes, it does show overlaps.) But this could have been the decision of whoever was compiling the traffic counts.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Alex4897

Quote from: OracleUsr on November 11, 2014, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 11, 2014, 12:31:17 AM
Quote from: Alex4897 on November 10, 2014, 02:02:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 09, 2014, 11:06:49 PM
(as IMO they should be in both Maryland and Delaware)

As a local who uses I-95 pretty much everyday, I'd rather not fork over change anytime I want to use the road to head south.

So use E-ZPass - or take U.S. 40.

Isn't Eastbound 40 towards Havre de Grace also tolled across the Susquehanna?  Or is this another section you're referring to?
When I said south I didn't mean southbound into Maryland, I meant south into Bear or Glasgow.  Its far easier to take I-95 from 273 to 896 to get to Glasgow and points south, or I-95 from 273 to 1/7 to get to Bear and points south than it is to take surface arteries. 

And quite frankly, introducing ramp tolls in Delaware would either exacerbate the already bad traffic on ramps along the Turnpike or force traffic onto surface arteries and worsen the already bad traffic there.
👉😎👉

Alex

Quote from: NE2 on November 11, 2014, 11:56:04 PM
I don't know if DelDOT has official definitions. The closest thing I can find is the traffic counts, which even [http://www.deldot.gov/information/pubs_forms/manuals/traffic_counts/2001/pdf/ts2001_21_41.pdf in 2001] showed 273 ending at 141 (typoed as 41). (Yes, it does show overlaps.) But this could have been the decision of whoever was compiling the traffic counts.

The traffic counts book has other issues too, like the east end of DE 20 is listed as DE 14, the 1970s numbering for DE 1.

Quote from: Alex4897 on November 12, 2014, 07:31:14 AM
And quite frankly, introducing ramp tolls in Delaware would either exacerbate the already bad traffic on ramps along the Turnpike or force traffic onto surface arteries and worsen the already bad traffic there.

Reintroducing ramp-tolls was a 1990s concept that was hugely unpopular and had very little chance of happening. Ramp tolls were also removed because Kirkwood Highway and other east-west roads were becoming congested because local traffic was not using Interstate 95. At least that is what I recalled being said when growing up.

Alex4897

I drove through Stanton today and noticed that the 12-8-8 signals on DE 4 at Stanton Rd are all getting replaced.  The switch has been completed eastbound, but for westbound the old signals are still in operation while the new signals are covered.  The picture I got wasn't fantastic as the sun was in the way, but one thing that's noticeable is the massive size of the pole supporting the mast.

👉😎👉

Alex

Quote from: Alex4897 on November 15, 2014, 04:20:01 PM
I drove through Stanton today and noticed that the 12-8-8 signals on DE 4 at Stanton Rd are all getting replaced.  The switch has been completed eastbound, but for westbound the old signals are still in operation while the new signals are covered.  The picture I got wasn't fantastic as the sun was in the way, but one thing that's noticeable is the massive size of the pole supporting the mast.



NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

They will always live on here at least:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/sets/72157635006210646/

mrsman

Quote from: mtantillo on November 11, 2014, 07:01:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 19, 2014, 10:14:36 PM
Basically, the higher the toll, the more people want to avoid the toll.

The lower the extra distance to bypass the toll, the greater the number of people who will bypass the toll.

The Newark, DE toll crossing is relatively high ($4) and is fairly easy way to avoid, so there will be a lot of shunpiking. 
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 09, 2014, 11:06:49 PM
Quote from: Alex on November 09, 2014, 10:31:35 AM
Technically the $4 toll covers the entire 11-mile Delaware Turnpike, not just the segment between the state line and Exit 1. Same is said for the Susquehanna River Bridge toll for the JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland.

I would buy that if the ramp tolls were still there (as IMO they should be in both Maryland and Delaware).   

But given that the ramp tolls in Delaware were removed in the mid-1970's and in Maryland in the early 1980's, then there is just one link on each highway that is actually tolled (and Maryland made matters worse by only tolling one direction at that one point).


Keep in mind that a lot of the traffic passing through DE on I-95 is not local, but long haul traffic. I drive up north to NJ/NY/New England fairly often for one reason or another. Using the "normal" route...I-95, I-295, NJ Turnpike, Lincoln Tunnel, it costs $66.10 in tolls ($13 Lincoln Tunnel EB, $12.55 NJ Turnpike each way, $4 Delaware Memorial Bridge WB, $4 Delaware Turnpike each way, $8 Tydings Bridge NB, $4 Fort McHenry Tunnel each way). If you pay with E-ZPass, you get a $2 or $4 discount at the Holland Tunnel depending on time of day. Regardless, $66.10, $64.10, or $62.10 is A LOT of money for tolls. Can you really blame people for looking for ways to cut that cost down a bit? Delaware has the unfortunate distinction of being the only one of those that is very easy to bypass.

The $8 at the Tyding Bridge is also fairly simple to avoid, but requires a little upfront planning. You need to get a Maryland E-ZPass account and purchase the "Hatem Bridge Plan" for $20. This allows unlimited use of the parallel Hatem Bridge on US 40 for one year. Hmm...$8 per trip, or $20 per year with a fairly simple detour? Sign me up for the latter, please. Anyone can do it, regardless of where you live, but of course Maryland doesn't exacly want a lot of people to sign up for it, so they don't advertise it much outside of the local area of Harford and Cecil counties. I took the requisite 3 trips to break even within 6 weeks of the plan's renewal date this year, giving me "free" passage until next June.

So doing the Hatem detour one way and the I-95 Neward detour both ways saves $16. Then use I-295 in NJ instead of the Turnpike as far as Exit 4 or 7A and you save another $2.80 to $4.50 each way. Get off the Turnpike at Exit 11 to US 22 to Pulaski Skyway (well, when it is open EB), and you save even more on Turnpike tolls. All combined, it takes maybe 20/25 minutes longer, essentially keeps the same route, and saves $37 in round trip tolls. For someone who doesn't drive the route often, it seems silly to bypass the tolls like that. But for someone who travels that way every few weeks, the savings adds up very quickly.

$66 round trip.  Wow! :wow:

I've lived in the DC area for 13 years and I tend to make a trip to NYC several times a year (lately, it's been about 2-3 times) to visit family.  Before DE toll and the toll on the bridge got raised, I would routinely take the normal route with just a few shunpikes.  About half the time I would take I-695 to avoid the Harbor Tunnel, I would almost always avoid DE's toll by taking local streets, I would take I-295 all the way to 195 northbound and take the NJTP only to the Outerbridge Crossing.  On the return trip, it's always Brooklyn Bridge to Holland Tunnel (avoiding the punitive toll on the Verrazano), NJTP to 195 through Trenton over the Trenton Makes Bridge (to avoid the toll on the Del Mem Bridge) and eventually on I-95 through Philly (skipping Delaware again) and then all the way down I-95 to the Capital Beltway.  I believe with all that effort, in the old days, my round trip tolls would be about $20-$25.

But now, fuhgettaboutit!  I've decided that unless I want to see the highway progress on some of the consturction projects like 295/76 or the ETLs on I-95 north of Baltimore, I'm going to do the "long arc" and avoid all tolls (except for crossing the Hudson and a $1 toll westbound in Easton,PA) by going through York, Lancaster, Reading , and Allentown.  Yes it's more miles, but generally very few traffic holdups and would probably take less time than all the necessary shunpiking to keep costs in line.  In fact, in today's Washington Post (in an annual post he does this time of year discussing holiday getaways), Dr. Gridlock mentioned the routing through Harrisburg as a way to avoid the crawl along I-95 heading to NY and New England.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: mrsman on November 16, 2014, 06:23:41 PM
But now, fuhgettaboutit!  I've decided that unless I want to see the highway progress on some of the consturction projects like 295/76 or the ETLs on I-95 north of Baltimore, I'm going to do the "long arc" and avoid all tolls (except for crossing the Hudson and a $1 toll westbound in Easton,PA) by going through York, Lancaster, Reading , and Allentown.  Yes it's more miles, but generally very few traffic holdups and would probably take less time than all the necessary shunpiking to keep costs in line.  In fact, in today's Washington Post (in an annual post he does this time of year discussing holiday getaways), Dr. Gridlock mentioned the routing through Harrisburg as a way to avoid the crawl along I-95 heading to NY and New England.

If you are trying to get across New York City on I-95, then taking some other route (such as I-287 or the GSP to the New York State Thruway, then across the Tappan Zee; Beacon or even the Bear Mountain Bridge) seems like a better route than I-95 crossing the GWB and the Cross-Bronx Expressway.

I also posted a link to the Dr. Gridlock article you mention above.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

NE2

Quote from: mrsman on November 16, 2014, 06:23:41 PM
a $1 toll westbound in Easton,PA
Eh, this is one of the easier tolls to bypass in a car. Don't know if the added time is worth it.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

J Route Z

Before DE 1 how would people access the beach towns? US 13 perhaps?

froggie

Probably a combination of US 13 (which was 4-laned north of Dover no later than 1951, and the rest of the state by the mid-50s), US 113 (which predated DE 1 between Dover and Milford), and DE 14, which was DE 1's predecessor south of Milford.  When DE 1 came about, DE 14 was truncated to Milford.

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

cpzilliacus

Quote from: NE2 on November 30, 2014, 03:10:42 PM
Quote from: J Route Z on November 30, 2014, 02:29:29 PM
Before DE 1 how would people access the beach towns? US 13 perhaps?
https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/road_maps.htm

Spui, I do not recall driving this part of U.S. 13 in Delaware until the 1980's, when it seemed to be choked by an inordinate number of signalized intersections, with wait times made longer by an apparently enormous demand for left turns at nearly every light.

Has it been that bad since the road was widened to four-lane divided over most of its length?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alex4897

Does anyone have the story behind this awkward pavement shift on DE 896 south just after US 40?  Is it a simple misalignment, or is this leftover from some grand plan for future expansion?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5966334,-75.7387437,303m/data=!3m1!1e3

👉😎👉

Alex

Quote from: Alex4897 on December 20, 2014, 10:48:33 PM
Does anyone have the story behind this awkward pavement shift on DE 896 south just after US 40?  Is it a simple misalignment, or is this leftover from some grand plan for future expansion?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5966334,-75.7387437,303m/data=!3m1!1e3

For years the Official Delaware Highway map showed an interchange proposed between Delaware 896 and Porter Road just to the south. Could be related to that.

Concrete was misaligned for Delaware 1 south of the Mall, and it might also be a contractor error similar to what happened there:



Also that stretch leading south from Glasgow was only expanded in 1993-93. Until it was, plans for upgrading U.S. 301 to a freeway were still considered:


Alex4897

The road shifts the equivelant of two lanes to the left though, so I don't think it's related to Porter Road.  Given that map of alternatives, I'm actually wondering if it has something to do with the alternatives leading to I-95.  The angle of the shift seems to match up with the alternatives that cross US 40 to the east.

This actually brings up another question, would those alternatives tie into the Pike Creek Expressway should the two have actually been built?  There's a trail of ROW leading from I-95 east of DE 72 to about DE 2 / Harmony Road, crossing near the DE 273 / 4 interchange. I'm assuming this has to do with the cancelled Pike Creek project, but I've never seen any alignment maps.  Does anyone happen to have any?
👉😎👉

Alex

Quote from: Alex4897 on December 21, 2014, 12:13:17 PM
The road shifts the equivelant of two lanes to the left though, so I don't think it's related to Porter Road.  Given that map of alternatives, I'm actually wondering if it has something to do with the alternatives leading to I-95.  The angle of the shift seems to match up with the alternatives that cross US 40 to the east.

This actually brings up another question, would those alternatives tie into the Pike Creek Expressway should the two have actually been built?  There's a trail of ROW leading from I-95 east of DE 72 to about DE 2 / Harmony Road, crossing near the DE 273 / 4 interchange. I'm assuming this has to do with the cancelled Pike Creek project, but I've never seen any alignment maps.  Does anyone happen to have any?

FWIW, I also posted this map in another thread last year.



A scan from the New Castle County 2010 Comprehensive Plan (plan adopted 12/88, map prepared 11/89).

Alex4897

Wow.  The routing for that ends next to my neighborhood, I wonder how the area would've changed had this have actually been built.  I also think the terminus is kind of odd, wouldn't it make sense to try to link this to DE 7 and eventually PA 41 to help establish a more defined route for northward traffic?

Also of note are the apparent grand plans for the Newtown / Reybold Road corridor.  I had no clue they extended to 896 and beyond.
👉😎👉



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