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[LM117]

https://webservices.ncleg.gov/ViewBillDocument/2023/1998/0/DRH10107-NE-38

Looks like North Carolina might be testing the waters again after failing a decade ago (2013)… there’s a bill to raise the maximum speed limit on interstate highways and controlled access facilities from 70 mph to 75 mph.

I think desolate rural stretches of I-40, I-85, I-95, I-77, I-587, US-64, US-17, etc. could reasonably handle a raise to 75 mph on fully controlled access segments.

First, I’d like NCDOT to increase some more 65 mph zones to 70 mph, and some more 55 mph zones to 60 mph (non limited access).

These immediately come to mind:

I-795

I-40 between Benson (I-95) and Wilmington

US-264/I-587 between Zebulon and Greenville

US-64 between Zebulon and Rocky Mount (I-95)

I-95 between Kenly and the VA state line

I-85 between Durham (I-885) and the VA state line

[sprjus4]

^ Some more I’ll throw onto that. I think the ongoing 8 lane widening portions of I-95 between I-40 and I-74 could reasonably handle 75 mph, although I’m not sure if they would go for that due to higher volumes.

In addition to US-64 between Zebulon and I-95 you mentioned, US-64 east of there from Rocky Mount to Williamston would be a good contender. The isolated 30 mile US-64 freeway segment east of Plymouth as well.

The US-70 freeway segments (Clayton, Goldsboro, west of New Bern) could also handle the increase.

I-140 around Wilmington, the US-17 bypasses of Pollocksville (all the way to US-70), Windsor, Edenton, and Elizabeth City, the NC-11 bypass of Greenville.

All of the US-74 freeway segments between Rockingham and Wilmington.

I-85 between Concord and Greensboro (traffic is always flowing 80+ mph here, it’s one of the only freeways in this part of the state NCDOT posts at 70 mph, there’s really no reason not to).

I-40 between Statesville and Winston-Salem.

I-77 between Statesville and Virginia.

I-73/I-74 south of Asheboro, I-74 between I-77 and US-52

US-29 between Reidsville and Virginia.

I could be missing some others.

[Dirt Roads]

How is NCDot doing financially these days, is there a trend towards returning to the spending levels and project delivery of say, 6 years ago?

The financial outlook for NCDOT seems to be strong.  My understanding is that NCDOT's financial issues were strictly limited to capital programs, and the financial issues were threefold: (1) the immediate impact of the eminent domain lawsuit;  (2) the near-term impact of increased costs of properties being acquired; and (3) the mid-term impact of increasing budgets for properties to be acquired.  It seems like yesterday, but the case NCDOT v. Independence Shopping Center was settled almost 10 years ago.  Plus, North Carolina has now had more than 10 years of strong financial growth and similar trends in tax revenues.  Currently, NCDOT's website boasts a budget of almost $5 billion.

[plain]

I would leave I-85 in the Henderson area at 70. Things sometimes get a little hairy around there as is (left entrance ramps at both ends of the US 158 duplex, with NC 39 being in the middle of it all).

[froggie]

Currently, NCDOT's website boasts a budget of almost $5 billion.

Their budget may be pushing $5B, but they have one of the largest systems in the nation to maintain.

Was NCDOT vs Independence Shopping Center directly related to the Map Act?  I though the Map Act fiasco was more recent than 10 years ago.

IIRC, coincident with the Map Act fiasco was a couple of major tropical systems that caused a lot of damage to the road network.

[sprjus4]

I would leave I-85 in the Henderson area at 70. Things sometimes get a little hairy around there as is (left entrance ramps at both ends of the US 158 duplex, with NC 39 being in the middle of it all).

I could see that. One of the beneficial things of a higher limit such as 75 mph, it allows a slower zone that’s not 65 mph, but not the “maximum”  speed limit either.

Interestingly enough, NCDOT just raised all of I-85 between Virginia and Henderson from 65 mph to 70 mph around 4 years ago once the reconstruction project was complete. I’m not sure why they did not eliminate those left exits around Henderson though.

Henderson could stay at 70 mph, with the speed limit raising to 75 mph again north of US-158 or US-1.

[RoadPelican]

I'm all for raising the Speed Limit to 75. I would also raise the maximum on divided highways from 60 to 65. 75 for freeways, 65 for divided highways and keep 55 for 2 lane roads. A lot of states in the region already have 65 on their divided highways such as Florida, Georgia and Tennessee.

[jdunlop]

How is NCDot doing financially these days, is there a trend towards returning to the spending levels and project delivery of say, 6 years ago?

My checks haven't bounced recently!  (Of course, my money comes from the retirement system these days!)

The financial outlook for NCDOT seems to be strong.  My understanding is that NCDOT's financial issues were strictly limited to capital programs, and the financial issues were threefold: (1) the immediate impact of the eminent domain lawsuit;  (2) the near-term impact of increased costs of properties being acquired; and (3) the mid-term impact of increasing budgets for properties to be acquired.  It seems like yesterday, but the case NCDOT v. Independence Shopping Center was settled almost 10 years ago.  Plus, North Carolina has now had more than 10 years of strong financial growth and similar trends in tax revenues.  Currently, NCDOT's website boasts a budget of almost $5 billion.

A lot of the financial hole was dug circa 2000 by preconstruction pushing for project planning/design to be done quickly, meaning more work went out to consultants than the budget should have allowed.  (One of the findings by the legislature's committee was that there was no check for this, which was bad accounting.  Of course, the legislature was one of the ones pushing for getting projects done sooner!)  The money wasn't lost (as some in the media like to say) but it was spent too early.  That, along with the substantial increase in costs for projects, created a big chunk of the budget shortfall.  The multiple storms didn't help, as the department had to pay upfront for the repairs, but the reimbursement was (and still is) slow to come from FEMA and others.

I think the map act issues have been covered.  Remember, NCDOT was following the law AS PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE, but had to pay out the law suits out of the current budget.

[Dirt Roads]

^^^^

My checks haven't bounced recently!  (Of course, my money comes from the retirement system these days!)

I'm assuming that this was supposed to be part of jdunlop's reply to my post.  I've worked alongside NCDOT folks on several projects, but never actually worked on an NCDOT project.

Was NCDOT vs Independence Shopping Center directly related to the Map Act?  I though the Map Act fiasco was more recent than 10 years ago.

jdunlop also kind of answered this, but indeed NCDOT vs Independence Shopping Center resulted in the overturn and eventual repeal of the Map Act.  If I recall correctly, the main premise of the Map Act (avoidance of financial responsibility for new structures built on proposed highway corridors) wasn't the primary issue of the civil suit.  The primary issue was insufficient compensation for loss of the incremental increased property value due to those restrictions.  But the way the North Carolina Supreme Court ruled on the case, NCDOT had to pay out damages resultant from both of those issues. 

I've seen several articles over the years, but still can't quite figure out when all of this really went down.  The courts originally ruled against NCDOT in July 2013 and the North Carolina Supreme Court gave a final ruling in June 2016.  But the financial impact of the ruling affected all eminent domain cases (and many other property acquisitions) resultant from NCDOT corridor assignments since the Map Act was enacted (that's a mouthful) in 1987.

IIRC, coincident with the Map Act fiasco was a couple of major tropical systems that caused a lot of damage to the road network.

The two recent ones that come to mind were Hurricane Matthew (Oct 2016) and Hurricane Florence (Sept 2018).  NCDOT received much of the repair funding from FEMA after those storms.  Going back into the 1990s, you had Hurricane Fran (Sep 1996), Hurricane Bonnie (Aug 1998) and worst of all Hurricane Floyd (Sep 1999).  For storms before 2005 (Hurricane Katrina), there wasn't near as much FEMA funding available for highway repairs.  But I'm pretty sure that none of the financial impact from NCDOT vs Independence Shopping Center really hit before the 2013 ruling.

[ARMOURERERIC]

I made my post, because after discovering  the NC Dot let list site, I see a pattern of constant delays to major projects that are supposedly on the front burner.  US 321 from US 70 to Lenior comes to mind.   I know a business that has been absolutely guaranteed that would need to relocate within 6 months since I moved here in 2016.

[Dirt Roads]

I made my post, because after discovering  the NC Dot let list site, I see a pattern of constant delays to major projects that are supposedly on the front burner.  US 321 from US 70 to Lenior comes to mind.   I know a business that has been absolutely guaranteed that would need to relocate within 6 months since I moved here in 2016.

Forgive me, but I must refrain from responding with any pertinent details at this time (perhaps someone else can help out).  However, I can say that NCDOT has a history of publishing a listing of certain high-priority projects that make it to the [top of the heap] but never seem to get moved forward.  Here, we have the I-85 Widening Project in Orange County which has been bounced in and out of the Top Five list at least a dozen times since before I moved here in Y2K.  As best as I can tell, the I-85 Orange County project is simply competing with other similar projects in similar suburban conditions with similar political persuasions and those other projects move up the ladder more quickly due to population growth (which is constrained here due to Orange County's unique slow-growth strategy).  Indeed, even the I-40 Widening Project in Orange County eventually bumped off its older sibling.

But I don't think that our situation would have any relevant correlation to why a major project in Caldwell County hasn't gotten a green light.  However, I do believe that your project has some relevance to some of the nuanced discussions over in the Best Highway/Freeway Connectivity thread under General Highway Talk.  For the record, Lenoir didn't quite make the Top Fifty in the 2020 United States Census.  But US-321 has been upgraded with enough Superstreet features to make it hard to disqualify Lenoir from being on the "connected" list.

[roadman65]

Does anyone know if Wrightsville Avenue in Wilmington ever was a numbered route? I noticed that on EB US 76 along Dawson Street at Oleander Drive there is an overhead assembly missing a panel for straight through Dawson.  I’m assuming that it was a state route of some sort hence the present panel brackets.

[Mapmikey]

This is where US 17 used to turn left at 17th, which it did from 1969-2006.


1971 official

Incidentally, Wrightsville Ave was NC 20 from 1921-26.  See the very bottom of this page - http://www.vahighways.com/ncannex/route-log/nc020.html

[roadman65]

Thanks.

I never would have thought that US 17 turned left onto 17th as I figured it continued on Dawson until I seen that Dawson ends at Wrightsville. That is what me me wonder what those brackets were once for as I figured US 17 & 74 both followed what is now US 17 Business.

[architect77]

How is NCDot doing financially these days, is there a trend towards returning to the spending levels and project delivery of say, 6 years ago?

The financial outlook for NCDOT seems to be strong.  My understanding is that NCDOT's financial issues were strictly limited to capital programs, and the financial issues were threefold: (1) the immediate impact of the eminent domain lawsuit;  (2) the near-term impact of increased costs of properties being acquired; and (3) the mid-term impact of increasing budgets for properties to be acquired.  It seems like yesterday, but the case NCDOT v. Independence Shopping Center was settled almost 10 years ago.  Plus, North Carolina has now had more than 10 years of strong financial growth and similar trends in tax revenues.  Currently, NCDOT's website boasts a budget of almost $5 billion.

Actually the 2023 STIP or some document I saw on their website showed this year's budget that includes federal allocation at $6.8 billion. Obviously inflation is part of the reason, (Gov. Cooper's proposed next year's budget is $32-34 billion).

Regarding the speed limits, is everyone factoring in the perceived permission to exceed the posted limit up to 8-10 mph without fear of getting a ticket?

It sounds like you all obey the posted limits religiously. I believe that the general, imprecise accuracy 60of speedometers allow for that cushion of up to 8-10 mph because that has hh.istorically led to so many dismissals in court.

For that reason, I feel like most posted speeds on interstates are fine except in cities where a posting of 60mph could be misused since traffic is usually exceeding that by 10-15mph whenever possible.

I think I-40 to Wilmington is fine as is with moderate traffic the entire way and the average speed being about 77-79 mph.

We need a national campaign of mailers to every home reminding people to always keep to the right of faster traffic.

I watch trucks and cars in the middle lanes of I-85 between Atlanta and Raleigh going too slow which forces hundreds of approaching cars to make multiply lane changes to get around them all compromising the safety of everyone unnecessarily.

[sprjus4]

Regarding the speed limits, is everyone factoring in the perceived permission to exceed the posted limit up to 8-10 mph without fear of getting a ticket?

It sounds like you all obey the posted limits religiously. I believe that the general, imprecise accuracy 60of speedometers allow for that cushion of up to 8-10 mph because that has hh.istorically led to so many dismissals in court.

Traffic flows at a natural and comfortable speed for the road design. Have you ever driven in a state with a 75 mph or 80 mph posted speed limit? Traffic isn’t doing 85-90+ mph there on a regular. Most traffic sticks around 80-82 mph, regardless of what is posted. Obviously, there’s always outliers, but they’re not the norm. The 8-10 mph over general rule tends to lessen as the speeds get higher. 80 mph is a comfortable cruising speed.

My personal habits have me sitting around 75-76 mph where the posted speed is 65 mph, 78-79 mph where the posted speed is 70 mph, and right at 80 mph where it’s posted 75 mph. I don’t tend to push 80 mph unless I’m traveling with a fast flow of traffic.

I’ve driven around Texas, for example, a number of times (along with other 75 mph states such as Louisiana I-49, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas), and the traffic on the rural interstates tend to move around 79-80 mph, and don’t change when the speed limit drops to 70 mph.

Arkansas, in particular, I drove both when the maximum was 70 mph, then later when it was raised to 75 mph, and anecdotally, I didn’t notice much change / variation in driving speeds.

Raising the speed limit isn’t going to increase overall speed by more than a mile or two per hour.

I think I-40 to Wilmington is fine as is with moderate traffic the entire way and the average speed being about 77-79 mph.

I-40 between Raleigh and Wilmington can easily handle a 75 mph speed limit without question. In terms of speed cushion, 80-85 mph (at most) is still very reasonable on that long, desolate rural interstate.

Freeways such as US-64, I-587, I-795, US-17 bypasses, etc. can very easily handle a 75 mph limit.

We need a national campaign of mailers to every home reminding people to always keep to the right of faster traffic.

I watch trucks and cars in the middle lanes of I-85 between Atlanta and Raleigh going too slow which forces hundreds of approaching cars to make multiply lane changes to get around them all compromising the safety of everyone unnecessarily.

Agreed 100%

[wdcrft63]

Question for engineers on the forum: isn’t it true that speed limit should normally approximate the speed actually traveled by free-flowing traffic on the highway? A lot of the discussion here is about what that speed is for NC interstates. And it is certainly true that free-flowing traffic moves safely at 75 mph+ on many of these freeways. My only problem with this is that free-flowing traffic can feel unsafe on crowded freeways due to vehicles following too closely and changing lanes frequently. Increased speed on crowded highways also makes distracted or fatigued drivers more dangerous. (I-95 is prone to horrible, road-closing crashes as a result.)
 

[architect77]

In 1998 I was driving in West Texas near Roby and goy a ticket for going 109 mph. The cop escorted me to a Mayberry-esque police station and fined me all of the cash in my wallet, $250.

4 hours later I got a second ticket for 85 or 89 mph (I can't remember) down the interstate. I was escorted to the police station and paid another fine $150 or so in cash.

Why was I happy? in Texas they don't report it to your home state thus insurance co. never knows to raise your rate.

West Texas is just so damn boring for hours and hours with nothing to look at. Kansas is even worse, the ground and a blank horizon, a tree, house and silo once every 45 minutes, from dawn to dusk.

[Mapmikey]

Thanks.

I never would have thought that US 17 turned left onto 17th as I figured it continued on Dawson until I seen that Dawson ends at Wrightsville. That is what me me wonder what those brackets were once for as I figured US 17 & 74 both followed what is now US 17 Business.

it's kind of an artifact from how access to Wilmington from the west/south used to be.  Prior to 1969, there was no bridge at downtown; only the current NC 133 bridge location had a crossing.  Thus, everything came from the north and US 74-76 actually used 17th to get down to Dawson as shown in this 1937 Texaco map scan:

[jdunlop]

Question for engineers on the forum: isn’t it true that speed limit should normally approximate the speed actually traveled by free-flowing traffic on the highway? A lot of the discussion here is about what that speed is for NC interstates. And it is certainly true that free-flowing traffic moves safely at 75 mph+ on many of these freeways. My only problem with this is that free-flowing traffic can feel unsafe on crowded freeways due to vehicles following too closely and changing lanes frequently. Increased speed on crowded highways also makes distracted or fatigued drivers more dangerous. (I-95 is prone to horrible, road-closing crashes as a result.)

Within reason, yes the speed limit on freeways should approximate the typical free-flow speed of the section.  You will typically see a lower speed limit in urban areas, where the road can be more crowded (LOS C-F), and higher in rural areas (that are almost always LOS A-B.)  The design speed of the road plays into the speed limit as well.  Most sections are designed for 70 MPH, however the design of a relatively straight/flat section is nominally that, but really drivers are comfortable going much faster.  Hence the 75-85 MPH speed limits on similar roads (in other states than NC.)  I also find the "artificially low" speed limits, such as on I-85 in Durham and Charlotte (60 instead of 65) to be a problem because of speed differential.

I-95 in North Carolina is a safety problem, one due to the old designs (which are being worked on), and because it's roughly eight hours from NYC and about the same from Florida.  So, right at that "fatigued" distance for many drivers.  Very few things are scarier as a driver than another driver in front of you falling asleep and weaving in and out of the median.  (The only thing worse that's happened to me is a wrong-way driver on a freeway.  Fortunately, I was in the right lane, and the other driver was in what they thought was their right lane.)

Also a problem in the construction areas is that the speed limits are reduced due to the tighter driving space (11' lanes and Jersey barriers close to the sides) and drivers that don't slow down for the construction area that have frequent stoppages/slowdowns.

(Speed limits on local roads is a whole different thing due to other modes of travel being on/next to those roads, and another, long, discussion!)

[sprjus4]

Hence the 75-85 MPH speed limits on similar roads (in other states than NC.)

I believe, interestingly enough, that the 85 mph road in question, SH-130 in Texas, was actually specifically designed with that speed limit in mind. This is apparent when driving it, the curve radii are significantly larger than usual, and can be easily traversed at 85-90 mph.

Otherwise, the standard in Texas tends to generally be a 70 mph design speed as well, and then raised to 75 mph following a traffic study. 75 mph is the most common speed limit in Texas in rural areas, on both interstates and arterial roadways.

I also find the "artificially low" speed limits, such as on I-85 in Durham and Charlotte (60 instead of 65) to be a problem because of speed differential.

I’ve found those areas interesting, as they sort of make sense but at the same time they tend to be ineffective and also inconsistent. Something like I-85 through Charlotte (and extending all the way to Gastonia) is 60 mph, yet I-40 through Raleigh maintains 65 mph the whole way through. I-85 is much wider and more modern from Durham, what is preventing 65 mph there?

The speed limits on some rural interstates confuse me as well… why is the urban 8 lane Greensboro loop (I-73 portion) signed for 70 mph, yet the rural 4 lane portions of I-73 both north and south of Greensboro with far less traffic, wider interchanges, median, etc. drag on at 65 mph for 20+ miles? What’s preventing those areas to be 70 mph but is okay on the much busier, curvier, urban beltway? The same for the 8 lane I-40/I-85 east of the city, US-421 southeast of the city (this one is rural freeway with a large forested median but only 60 mph!), I-74 between Winston-Salem and I-73, etc.

I’d ask the same about I-95 and it’s numerous 65 mph zones… they seem to “make sense”  but when you factor in free-flow of 80+ mph, why can these portions not be signed for 70 mph?

The speed inconsistencies across North Carolina’s interstates have confused me for a long time… any justification or answers on that? The same with the lack of consistency on 60 mph speed zones on four lane divided highways, many roads still hold 55 mph yet can be raised safely to 60 mph.

[CanesFan27]

Great read describing a journey on US 64 from one end of the state to the other.  This is the type of highway features/writing I personally enjoy.

https://www.theassemblync.com/place/north-carolina-longest-highway/

[ITB]

YouTuber, Mileage Mike, has uploaded a video titled, "Why North Carolina is COVERING the ENTIRE State in Interstate Highways". For those interested, here it is:

[wdcrft63]

NCDOT has awarded a $33M contract to repair the Old Manns Harbor Bridge on US 64. This is the original bridge connecting Manteo and Roanoke Island to the mainland. It’s a narrow 2 lane bridge opened in 1955.
https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2023/2023-03-30-old-manns-harbor-speed-limit.aspx

[Plutonic Panda]

North Carolina along with Tennessee has ran into some serious budget shortfalls and in NC a tax on Uber/Lyft and rider sharing help close the gap a bit: https://www.wral.com/story/new-tax-on-uber-lyft-seen-as-partial-answer-on-nc-road-funding/20797915/