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Author Topic: Florida  (Read 1263186 times)

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3550 on: January 05, 2023, 07:42:29 AM »

When was FL 703 decommissioned? The satnav inside the car I was riding in mentioned it.
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3551 on: January 05, 2023, 08:44:11 AM »

When was FL 703 decommissioned? The satnav inside the car I was riding in mentioned it.

I don't think I've ever seen the mysterious SR 703 listed on maps, much less posted in the field. But it's been a "hidden but not secret" designation for the section of A1A from Blue Heron Boulevard to PGA Boulevard for quite a while (construction signage in the 1990s, nav systems, etc.)

It fits the grid, though. Maybe it wasn't originally called A1A through there, sort of how S-707 (and not A1A) was a coastal route north of Jupiter?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 08:47:01 AM by formulanone »
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3552 on: January 05, 2023, 08:12:43 PM »

A1A originally used Park Avenue and 811 from Lake Park to Jupiter, which first became A1A Alternate before becoming an extended 811. Then it crossed back east of 5 to use 707 to Hobe Sound.

Per state maps, A1A became 707 in 1953-54 (apparently the piece south of Hobe Sound was initially A1A Leg A), and 703 became A1A in 1962-63. Note that another piece of A1A was created when US 1 was realigned ca. 1956 from Jupiter south to Juno Beach.

Palm Beach County maps: 1960 (erroneously shows A1A north of Jupiter; also note the Juno Beach portion is a parallel piece of 5) and 1974
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3553 on: January 06, 2023, 10:17:30 AM »

A1A originally used Park Avenue and 811 from Lake Park to Jupiter, which first became A1A Alternate before becoming an extended 811. Then it crossed back east of 5 to use 707 to Hobe Sound.

Per state maps, A1A became 707 in 1953-54 (apparently the piece south of Hobe Sound was initially A1A Leg A), and 703 became A1A in 1962-63. Note that another piece of A1A was created when US 1 was realigned ca. 1956 from Jupiter south to Juno Beach.

Palm Beach County maps: 1960 (erroneously shows A1A north of Jupiter; also note the Juno Beach portion is a parallel piece of 5) and 1974

Thanks for that!

Hmmm...that SR 74 where PGA Boulevard/786 is located making me wonder it it's another error, or another of those routes in the batch which got renumbered a few years later. It's not numbered on the state maps.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 10:52:18 AM by formulanone »
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NE2

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3554 on: January 06, 2023, 01:16:52 PM »

I've definitely seen 74 on other maps; it's legit.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3555 on: January 09, 2023, 08:45:42 AM »

Have some of the state routes in the Greater Miami area been downgraded, or perhaps had their state route numbers changed to county routes? Last night we went down to the Fairchild Tropical Botanic Gardens south of Coral Gables to see the light show and the sat-nav in my brother-in-law's car had us turning from SW 88th Street onto southbound FL-959 to Old Cutler Road, yet Travel Mapping shows FL-959 ending at US-1. I wondered if it used to go further south or if the part south of US-1 is a county route with the same number (didnít see any signs to that effect, but it was after dark so I may have missed something). Iíve noticed mapping software doesnít always distinguish between state and county routes elsewhere in this area (example: Apple Maps shows the county portion of Griffin Road as being FL-818 instead of CR-818), so I wonder if itís just a similar thing.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3556 on: January 09, 2023, 02:57:25 PM »

SR 959 has always had its south end at US 1. As far as I know, Dade County has never posted county roads, but a few state-produced maps have shown them as extensions of state roads.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3557 on: January 10, 2023, 07:26:09 AM »

Thanks. Probably just sloppiness by whoever programmed the software, then.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
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"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"óKolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3558 on: January 10, 2023, 09:44:31 AM »

What is the reason for so many roads in the Miami area having both a numbered name and a word name on the same street sign? For example, our hotel is near SW 148th Avenue in Southwest Ranches, which is also Volunteer Road. The other night we were on SW 88th Street down near Dadeland Mall and it was also signed as North Kendall Drive; SW 57th Avenue in the same area was also signed as Red Road (a name I recognize from the continuation of Flamingo Road near the Turnpike). My brother-in-law said there isnít necessarily much rhyme nor reason to which ones are referred to by name and which ones by number.

But Iíve also noticed itís far from universal. NW 196th Avenue in Pembroke Pines has no "word name," for example. Then in Weston the streets seem to have just "word names" without numbers.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
óOlaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"óKolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3559 on: January 10, 2023, 09:54:30 AM »

Galveston, Texas is the same way. They have number and letter grids there and Broadway doubles as Avenue J while 25th Street doubles as Rosenberg Street, 21st Street doubles as Moody Street, and 14th Street doubles as Christopher Columbus Street.

Itís just to keep named roads still in the grid.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3560 on: January 10, 2023, 10:04:12 AM »

What is the reason for so many roads in the Miami area having both a numbered name and a word name on the same street sign? For example, our hotel is near SW 148th Avenue in Southwest Ranches, which is also Volunteer Road. The other night we were on SW 88th Street down near Dadeland Mall and it was also signed as North Kendall Drive; SW 57th Avenue in the same area was also signed as Red Road (a name I recognize from the continuation of Flamingo Road near the Turnpike). My brother-in-law said there isnít necessarily much rhyme nor reason to which ones are referred to by name and which ones by number.

But Iíve also noticed itís far from universal. NW 196th Avenue in Pembroke Pines has no "word name," for example. Then in Weston the streets seem to have just "word names" without numbers.

Historically, the grid in the Miami area (now pretty much all inside of Miami proper) was used for navigation and general distance/time considerations by the locals.  As the City "changed" the numbered streets (or in many cases, sections of the numbered streets) on the grid, the locals (as expected) kept using the grid numbers out of habit.  I'm guessing that the dual signage was a matter of necessity because of the multi-lingual population in the City.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3561 on: January 10, 2023, 10:17:16 AM »

What is the reason for so many roads in the Miami area having both a numbered name and a word name on the same street sign? For example, our hotel is near SW 148th Avenue in Southwest Ranches, which is also Volunteer Road. The other night we were on SW 88th Street down near Dadeland Mall and it was also signed as North Kendall Drive; SW 57th Avenue in the same area was also signed as Red Road (a name I recognize from the continuation of Flamingo Road near the Turnpike). My brother-in-law said there isn’t necessarily much rhyme nor reason to which ones are referred to by name and which ones by number.

But I’ve also noticed it’s far from universal. NW 196th Avenue in Pembroke Pines has no "word name," for example. Then in Weston the streets seem to have just "word names" without numbers.

Historically, the grid in the Miami area (now pretty much all inside of Miami proper) was used for navigation and general distance/time considerations by the locals.  As the City "changed" the numbered streets (or in many cases, sections of the numbered streets) on the grid, the locals (as expected) kept using the grid numbers out of habit.  I'm guessing that the dual signage was a matter of necessity because of the multi-lingual population in the City.

Plus it would create skipping numbers or jumping blocks to upset the grid.  For example in New York, there is no Fourth Avenue north of Union Square because Park Avenue took over the fourth numbered Avenue in the city. However 3rd and 5th Avenues are two blocks apart ( Madison and Lexington don’t count as they’re half block grid violations in betweeen)  where Park is where Fourth should be.

Then there is DC that has an invisible A and B Streets due to the National Mall that does create confusion as it starts with C and goes north or south ( depending on quadrant) and even skips over J and goes to K.
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3562 on: January 10, 2023, 03:07:55 PM »

What is the reason for so many roads in the Miami area having both a numbered name and a word name on the same street sign? For example, our hotel is near SW 148th Avenue in Southwest Ranches, which is also Volunteer Road. The other night we were on SW 88th Street down near Dadeland Mall and it was also signed as North Kendall Drive; SW 57th Avenue in the same area was also signed as Red Road (a name I recognize from the continuation of Flamingo Road near the Turnpike). My brother-in-law said there isnít necessarily much rhyme nor reason to which ones are referred to by name and which ones by number.

But Iíve also noticed itís far from universal. NW 196th Avenue in Pembroke Pines has no "word name," for example. Then in Weston the streets seem to have just "word names" without numbers.

Miami-Dade County uses a lot of roads with ordinal numbers, with some of the road names used interchangeably. I used to remember a bunch of them but being out of the area for a decade made me forget a lot of them. But the grid radiates out of downtown Miami, so it's easy enough to figure out distances and locations around the county.

Broward County usually reserves the ordinals for some of the older areas of cities, but as the area grew, mostly names took over. Weston incorporated a lot later than most cities in Broward, with most of the streets and routes largely unconnected to the rest of the county's grid until the mid-1990s.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 03:21:09 PM by formulanone »
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3563 on: January 11, 2023, 09:15:32 AM »

Historically, the grid in the Miami area (now pretty much all inside of Miami proper) was used for navigation and general distance/time considerations by the locals.

Is that a Florida thing? Going out U.S. 301 north from Ocala, one sees quite a few numbered streets well out into the countryside.

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3564 on: January 11, 2023, 02:41:25 PM »

Historically, the grid in the Miami area (now pretty much all inside of Miami proper) was used for navigation and general distance/time considerations by the locals.

Is that a Florida thing? Going out U.S. 301 north from Ocala, one sees quite a few numbered streets well out into the countryside.

I've seen it in a few other states. In Indiana, a lot of roads north of Indianapolis continue the numbering higher from 96th Street, the last road in the city. The highest one I could find is 296th St, which would be 20 miles north.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3565 on: January 11, 2023, 06:36:09 PM »

Historically, the grid in the Miami area (now pretty much all inside of Miami proper) was used for navigation and general distance/time considerations by the locals.

Is that a Florida thing? Going out U.S. 301 north from Ocala, one sees quite a few numbered streets well out into the countryside.

In this particular case, Marion County adopted Ocala's numbering and addressing system. The same is true in Alachua County (Gainesville) further north.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3566 on: January 11, 2023, 07:25:10 PM »

Historically, the grid in the Miami area (now pretty much all inside of Miami proper) was used for navigation and general distance/time considerations by the locals.

Is that a Florida thing? Going out U.S. 301 north from Ocala, one sees quite a few numbered streets well out into the countryside.

In this particular case, Marion County adopted Ocala's numbering and addressing system. The same is true in Alachua County (Gainesville) further north.

That's common in other places too. In Utah, most counties will adopt the numbering grid from their largest city for their unincorporated areas. This gets annoying if you're in one of those areas but enter a smaller city with a different grid system, and so all the names and numbers will change. As an example, one road in Box Elder County goes from 6000 West (unincorporated county, based on Brigham City) to Main Street (Garland) to 300 East (Tremonton) in a span of 1.8 miles. In southern Garland, Google says that intersects a road called 12000 North...which would be its county number, but it's actually only signed as 1400 South. Go west from there and it becomes 1000 North.

At least Tremonton and Garland are separate enough you can kind of tell which is which from the ground, and you can definitely tell when you're leaving them. The problem is compounded if you're in an urban area where there are lots of formerly separate population centers that grew together and are now essentially indistinguishable... but still maintain their old address systems. That's what happened in Utah County, where there are tens of cities that use their own grids and a handful that use the county grid interspersed between them and in the rural parts.

D-Dey65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3567 on: January 16, 2023, 12:10:54 AM »

You know how NYSDOT Region 10 stupidly ends NY 105 and NY 106 abruptly at one another instead of making NY 105 useful by extending it west to Hempstead and extending NY 106 south to either NY 27 or Merrick Boulevard? Well, in FDOT Region 1, they did the same thing with FL 542 and FL 549 in Winter Haven. I realize that in the case of FL 542, they just decommissioned the route because they want to turn it into a "pedestrian friendly zone." So I say FL 549 should be extended south to FL 540.
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3568 on: January 16, 2023, 01:10:25 AM »

In Homestead they did the same when SR 997 got truncated. SR 996 now begins at SR 997 new south end to connect to US 1 to the east.

SR 581 ends at the west segment end of SR 54 in Wesley Chapel as well.

Two routes ending at each other are common around here.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3569 on: January 18, 2023, 01:34:08 PM »

The newest I-75 interchange in Pasco County opens. I-75 Exit 282 connects to Overpass Road north of Wesley Chapel. FL.
https://www.fdottampabay.com/project/457/432734-2-52-01
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3570 on: January 18, 2023, 11:26:34 PM »

In Homestead they did the same when SR 997 got truncated. SR 996 now begins at SR 997 new south end to connect to US 1 to the east.

SR 581 ends at the west segment end of SR 54 in Wesley Chapel as well.

Two routes ending at each other are common around here.
I've never seen how things are in Homestead, but I'm not a fan of this arrangement in Wesley Chapel either.

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D-Dey65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3571 on: January 20, 2023, 11:52:08 AM »

And wait until the new DDI with a planned Buc-ee's a nearby opens on the north side of Ocala, and see traffic congestion further increase.
https://www.cflroads.com/project/435209-1/I-75_at_NW_49_St_Project_Development_and_Environment_PD_E_Study
Is this interchange still being proposed? Because I heard that the Buc-ee's is supposed to be moved to SR 326 now.
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/regional/florida/bucees-florida-locations-ocala-new/67-eedca7e9-bf4e-4707-9d00-3358da3ae409

https://www.wfla.com/news/is-florida-getting-another-buc-ees-location/





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Re: Florida
« Reply #3572 on: January 20, 2023, 03:51:07 PM »

And wait until the new DDI with a planned Buc-ee's a nearby opens on the north side of Ocala, and see traffic congestion further increase.
https://www.cflroads.com/project/435209-1/I-75_at_NW_49_St_Project_Development_and_Environment_PD_E_Study
Is this interchange still being proposed? Because I heard that the Buc-ee's is supposed to be moved to SR 326 now.
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/regional/florida/bucees-florida-locations-ocala-new/67-eedca7e9-bf4e-4707-9d00-3358da3ae409

https://www.wfla.com/news/is-florida-getting-another-buc-ees-location/

The SR 326 reference is not accurate. Looking at the plans for the proposed DDI, you can see where the site is.
The construction project (435209-1) is scheduled for letting on August 8, 2024.

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3573 on: January 21, 2023, 07:38:08 PM »

Oh hi, it's Toll A1A.
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pre-1945 Florida route log

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3574 on: January 21, 2023, 09:01:47 PM »

I finished mapping the state roads as they existed in 1945: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1jN2a1kHL8hFXe9PO8agPoHMOCjt2RyU
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pre-1945 Florida route log

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