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Author Topic: Florida  (Read 1263171 times)

NE2

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3525 on: December 08, 2022, 09:50:56 PM »

Does anyone know if the grading visible near Wakulla Beach was for the original Gulf Coast Highway plan? It roughly matches what's shown on the 1946 county map, and was present by 1952 per aerials.

I would have guessed it was a former or an unused railroad grade.
The width and parallel drainage channels visible in 1952 look like overkill for a minor (probably logging) railroad.

Never mind; it was neither. Apparently the CCC started building a dam to create a waterfowl refuge pond.
Quote from: https://www.fws.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Saint_Marks_CCP.pdf
In addition to impoundments on the St. Marks Unit, the Civilian Conservation Corps began, but never completed, a large impoundment on the Wakulla Unit at West Goose Creek between Wakulla Beach Road and Live Oak Island Road. In 1942, World War II halted all construction on the refuge.
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pre-1945 Florida route log

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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3526 on: December 09, 2022, 06:27:36 AM »

Does anyone know if the grading visible near Wakulla Beach was for the original Gulf Coast Highway plan? It roughly matches what's shown on the 1946 county map, and was present by 1952 per aerials.

I would have guessed it was a former or an unused railroad grade.
The width and parallel drainage channels visible in 1952 look like overkill for a minor (probably logging) railroad.

Never mind; it was neither. Apparently the CCC started building a dam to create a waterfowl refuge pond.
Quote from: https://www.fws.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Saint_Marks_CCP.pdf
In addition to impoundments on the St. Marks Unit, the Civilian Conservation Corps began, but never completed, a large impoundment on the Wakulla Unit at West Goose Creek between Wakulla Beach Road and Live Oak Island Road. In 1942, World War II halted all construction on the refuge.

Good find and great point; the logging railroad grades are usually a lot more narrow, but I figured they're also much further inland.
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D-Dey65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3527 on: December 10, 2022, 01:34:59 PM »

There's some GSV shots taken in August 2022 showing the progress of the construction of the flyover ramps linking US-19 with the Gateway expressway as well as the Gateway Expwy itself on Sept 2022.
https://goo.gl/maps/RKbLZXCj6sq5p6Qi9
https://goo.gl/maps/SQZ7QWz4Po8KwvdG7
There's also a GSV shot taken in November 2022 showing the progress at Pinellas CR 611.
https://www.google.com/maps/@27.8789029,-82.7002095,3a,75y,343.89h,73.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPd4FWABWWHhxCE3JeyMnVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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NE2

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3528 on: December 13, 2022, 06:58:18 PM »

I finally scanned my copy of the 1945 log and subsequent changes: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wsn20pnohhqtw5z/AAA9GgGSXsU_3Q_KEIX3PwpVa?dl=0
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pre-1945 Florida route log

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Georgia Guardrail

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3529 on: December 16, 2022, 07:58:13 PM »

Does anyone know where the original pre-Alligator Alley terminus for I-75 was located back in the 80s?
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3530 on: December 17, 2022, 05:12:28 PM »

The West End was at the current dead end frontage road ( Beck Blvd). 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Naples,+FL/@26.1553985,-81.6688349,16.6z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88dae19b73c2d7ad:0x673f5318d72c9aaa!8m2!3d26.1420358!4d-81.7948103

https://goo.gl/maps/nMumi2q1CDtoxGnGA


East end at a four way intersection with US 27 in Andytown replaced by an interchange.  SR 84 continued along a free road into Fort Laudedale as a two to four lane highway before I-75/ and I-595 were constructed.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 05:15:12 PM by roadman65 »
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3531 on: December 17, 2022, 05:40:29 PM »

The West End was at the current dead end frontage road ( Beck Blvd). 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Naples,+FL/@26.1553985,-81.6688349,16.6z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88dae19b73c2d7ad:0x673f5318d72c9aaa!8m2!3d26.1420358!4d-81.7948103

https://goo.gl/maps/nMumi2q1CDtoxGnGA


East end at a four way intersection with US 27 in Andytown replaced by an interchange.  SR 84 continued along a free road into Fort Laudedale as a two to four lane highway before I-75/ and I-595 were constructed.


Thanks for the insight!  I've always wondered where the original south terminus points of I-75 were.  Were there originally plans to connect I-75 to I-95 in Miami?  I think I may have heard that somewhere on this forum.
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3532 on: December 18, 2022, 10:08:41 AM »

The West End was at the current dead end frontage road ( Beck Blvd). 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Naples,+FL/@26.1553985,-81.6688349,16.6z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88dae19b73c2d7ad:0x673f5318d72c9aaa!8m2!3d26.1420358!4d-81.7948103

https://goo.gl/maps/nMumi2q1CDtoxGnGA


East end at a four way intersection with US 27 in Andytown replaced by an interchange.  SR 84 continued along a free road into Fort Laudedale as a two to four lane highway before I-75/ and I-595 were constructed.


Thanks for the insight!  I've always wondered where the original south terminus points of I-75 were.  Were there originally plans to connect I-75 to I-95 in Miami?  I think I may have heard that somewhere on this forum.

My understanding is that the Gratigny Parkway (FL 924) was to be the connection between I-75 and I-95, but would have displaced a lot of people, and thus faced local opposition. In light of that, ending it at the Palmetto Expressway (FL 826) makes sense, as it was already limited-access, but it irritates many roadgeeks.

Having lived down there, and not knowing the backstory, I just always figured its current terminus just made the most sense and that's how it always planned; I-95's development came about well before I-75 even approached South Florida. To everyone else, it looks like a mistake. Even if you "shouldn't" have two odd-numbered routes ending at each other.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2022, 10:13:29 AM by formulanone »
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D-Dey65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3533 on: December 19, 2022, 02:42:07 PM »

I know the right of way was originally supposed to be south of Alligator Alley.


EDIT DECEMBER 20, 2022; New Topic;
What year was SR 207 widened to four lanes? I saw Historic Aerials from 1999 depicting it as a two-lane road, and then 2007 as the four-lane highway it is today.



« Last Edit: January 01, 2023, 02:25:11 AM by D-Dey65 »
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3534 on: December 21, 2022, 09:01:58 AM »

To be honest, itís not that bad ending where it is. Using FL 826 to FL 836 does well as is to reach Downtown Miami.  Yes, to some of us road geeks it is an abomination, but to many of us Breezewood is on a boycott list cause they wonít let PennDOT and the PTC build direct ramps between the freeways or some calling I-99 a false interstate as well as NCís I-74.

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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3535 on: December 27, 2022, 01:45:42 PM »

We're spending a frigid holiday in St. Petersburg (but warmer than the mountains of Virginia). On this and other visits, I've noticed that many of the major surface streets have broad rights of way and have 6 or 8 lanes in places. How and when did the planning occur to allow all this room in the major urban area of Tampa Bay?
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3536 on: December 29, 2022, 12:08:48 PM »

Has anyone seen the new RDIC blue guide signs yet?  The classic purple Disney guides are being slowly phased out for a shade of blue.
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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3537 on: December 29, 2022, 02:41:38 PM »

Has anyone seen the new RDIC blue guide signs yet?  The classic purple Disney guides are being slowly phased out for a shade of blue.

I have a dyslexic streak sometimes, so I had to do a double take on this one.  But officially, I know nothing about the Reedy Creek Improvement District.   :hmmm:
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Voyager75

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3538 on: December 29, 2022, 02:56:53 PM »

Has anyone seen the new RDIC blue guide signs yet?  The classic purple Disney guides are being slowly phased out for a shade of blue.

Just left Disney a few days ago. There arenít that many up yet. Saw maybe a dozen scattered around the property. They look much better TBH and even have official looking Highway Gothic font. I doubt non-road geek folks would even pay attention as its a purplish shade of blue. I know the Disney geek purists are all up in arms about it for some reason. They think the purple signs are as iconic as the rest of the park properties.
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3539 on: December 29, 2022, 10:25:49 PM »

I know the right of way was originally supposed to be south of Alligator Alley.


EDIT DECEMBER 20, 2022; New Topic;
What year was SR 207 widened to four lanes? I saw Histoirc Aerials from 1999 depicting it as a two-lane road, and then 2007 as the four-lane highway it is today.

I recall construction began in mid-2001 around Palatka on SR 207, but I moved away from the area not long after that. My next visit was in 2011, and it was all four-laned by then.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3540 on: December 30, 2022, 08:13:26 AM »

Notes from my trip to Florida:
  • Multilane. Everything multilane divided. Quite a lot of left turn bays for roads that don't even exist (yet), and they're decently often used as median U-turns. (I'm a fan of median U-turns.)
  • South Florida times their lights quite well. FL 882 (clinched), which is east-west, was pretty much constant greens except at US 441 (the only cross road that was significantly more major than FL 882); on my previous trip 5 years ago, I got consecutive greens on a north-south road about 10 miles south, probably Jog Rd.
  • What's the point of decommissioning state routes into county routes if they keep their number and still fit into the overall grid system?
  • US 19 from Clearwater (well, Tarpon Springs is as close as I got) to Crystal River isn't that populated of an area, but it's retail hell. How do the businesses all survive?
  • Gun shops. Hearing aid shops. At least no "guns and liquor", one store that I saw in Arizona 11 years ago.
  • Gas stations, even those that aren't truck stops, often put their prices way overhead so that drivers can see them far in advance. Massachusetts doesn't do that. Also, when prices nationwide went up 20Ę overnight, the Turnpike didn't, making the Turnpike actually cheaper.
  • I thought snowbirds typically went I-75 → Gulf Coast and I-95 → Atlantic Coast. Based on license plates, this did not seem to be the case. There are Michigan plates in South Florida and New Hampshire and New Jersey plates on the Gulf Coast just north of Tampa.
  • The only gators I've seen so far were in Lion Country Safari; no wild ones. 5 years ago, I saw a lizard in the wild in a nature preserve (none exist at all in Massachusetts since they're cold-blooded). I saw one yesterday, also at Lion Country Safari, but by coincidence as it was not part of an exhibit.
  • Kennedy Space Center's food and gift shop are reasonably priced. Crystal River's main manatee gift shop is not.
  • The two main malls in Wellington FL and Newport Beach CA feel almost identical from outside, even though I haven't been inside the former. They are surrounded by a ring road. Part of this bias may be, however, that Apple prioritizes Apple Store logos, and both malls have one.
  • Citrus County FL: Many plants were dead due to the freeze.
  • Cost of living doesn't seem to affect restaurant prices that much; it should be lower in Florida. This was also true in California three years ago, where a breakfast place was quite cheap despite California being more expensive. In addition, Publix seems more expensive than both Market Basket and Stop & Shop at home, especially dairy.
  • I'm only a few miles from Haverhill as I type this. This means I'm almost home, right?
  • Why does FL 528 say you need E-Pass rather than SunPass? They're interoperable now; just switch the signs over.
  • Wasn't the longest gap (excluding rest areas) on a freeway in the United States supposed to be on one side of Yeehaw Junction and be 4 miles shorter if you had a SunPass? That exit didn't appear to be SunPass-only.
  • Confusing license plate: I think it was "SE8RING" (a city in Florida with an 8 instead of a B), but since the Florida orange overlapped the 8, I'm not entirely sure it was an 8 and not a proper B.
  • The northern end of I-589 FL 589 was fairly empty. Does it really need an extension due north?
  • Express lane prices seem to be based solely on time of day and not actually congestion. Unlike Georgia's, outside peak hours, they are free rather than a few cents, but I encountered one during rush hour hours where the main lanes were flowing freely (it's between Christmas and New Years) and the person I was with said it was at its typical rush hour price (50Ę for a very short segment).
  • Google Maps, FL 882 doesn't go west of US 441.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 08:43:33 AM by 1 »
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pianocello

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3541 on: December 30, 2022, 08:41:27 AM »

We're spending a frigid holiday in St. Petersburg (but warmer than the mountains of Virginia). On this and other visits, I've noticed that many of the major surface streets have broad rights of way and have 6 or 8 lanes in places. How and when did the planning occur to allow all this room in the major urban area of Tampa Bay?

I've got a couple guesses, but I think they apply more to the rapidly-growing areas in the outlying areas of Citrus/Hernando/Pasco Counties than Tampa Bay/Pinellas County:
  • The major corridors may have gotten wide ROW (100+ ft) at the time they were designated, allowing for future growth.
  • As developments are plotted out and built, could counties have required a certain setback easement to allow for future growth of the main road?



What's the point of decommissioning state routes into county routes if they keep their number and still fit into the overall grid system?
State doesn't want to/can't afford to maintain the route anymore, but locals know it by a certain number so it's not worth it to the Counties to change it

Why does FL 528 say you need E-Pass rather than SunPass? They're interoperable now; just switch the signs over.
E-Pass roads and SunPass roads are owned and maintained by different entities - Central Florida Expressway (CFX) maintains E-Pass roads like SR 528 and others in the area like 429, 408, parts of 417, etc. SunPass roads are maintained by the Turnpike authority, a subset of FDOT. The transponders are interoperable, but I think the different agencies mean the interoperability could theoretically go away at some point. It won't, but it could.

Wasn't the longest gap (excluding rest areas) on a freeway in the United States supposed to be on one side of Yeehaw Junction and be 4 miles shorter if you had a SunPass? That exit didn't appear to be SunPass-only.
I think there was a brief time before pay-by-plate was possible on the Turnpike. That went away with the pandemic when they removed cash transactions.

The northern end of I-589 (sic, lol) was fairly empty. Does it really need an extension due north?
No. Unless it's extended far enough to actually provide relief for I-75. But for that to happen it would also need a better connection to I-75 near the south end, and at some point it just doesn't become worth it.
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NE2

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3542 on: December 30, 2022, 12:52:37 PM »

  • Wasn't the longest gap (excluding rest areas) on a freeway in the United States supposed to be on one side of Yeehaw Junction and be 4 miles shorter if you had a SunPass? That exit didn't appear to be SunPass-only.
The Sunpass-only signs were removed when they made the Turnpike electronic or pay-by-plate only.
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pre-1945 Florida route log

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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3543 on: December 30, 2022, 10:48:57 PM »

All exits are cash less so the dedicated exits for SunPass arenít so dedicated as all of its exits have become SunPass or Pay By Plate.

The signs would be useless.
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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3544 on: December 31, 2022, 05:50:19 AM »

I seem to remember that the SunPass only exit charged a violation fee of $100, not the pay by plate rate, if you went through without a SunPass.
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3545 on: December 31, 2022, 10:59:37 AM »

I seem to remember that the SunPass only exit charged a violation fee of $100, not the pay by plate rate, if you went through without a SunPass.

No that sign was a scare tactic.  In reality you pay $2 or so.  Plus if your dumb enough to not watch where your going and end up on any Florida toll facility because the GPS sends you there, the manned toll collectors are to issue an insufficient Funds Notice which gives ten days to pay the toll at regular price plus the postage stamp.
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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3546 on: January 04, 2023, 02:02:51 PM »

South Florida times their lights quite well.

I'm down in Vero Beach for a few days (it's in the West Palm Beach TV Market, so I guess it's South Florida, but not really)

anyway, I drove from I-95 to just west of Downtown Vero Beach (5 miles) and did not have to stop at a single traffic light during the 12 to 1 pm hour!

GAS PRICES are ridiculous down here!!!

I paid $2.79 in Greensboro, NC then $2.72 in Savannah, GA and the average in Vero is $3.29!!!!

It should not be more than $3, wholesale gas is selling for around $2.40 if you add FL gas tax of 40 cents (+) 18 Cents federal Tax = $2.98, so gas stations are overcharging by at least 25 to 30 cents. Maybe a secret snowbird season tax?
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3547 on: January 04, 2023, 03:30:47 PM »

Try going south of Marathon sometime if you donít like those gas prices.
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #3548 on: January 04, 2023, 03:38:49 PM »

Or move to the West Coast.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #3549 on: January 04, 2023, 10:03:06 PM »

Why does FL 528 say you need E-Pass rather than SunPass? They're interoperable now; just switch the signs over.
E-Pass roads and SunPass roads are owned and maintained by different entities - Central Florida Expressway (CFX) maintains E-Pass roads like SR 528 and others in the area like 429, 408, parts of 417, etc. SunPass roads are maintained by the Turnpike authority, a subset of FDOT. The transponders are interoperable, but I think the different agencies mean the interoperability could theoretically go away at some point. It won't, but it could.

The toll section of FL 528 is actually maintained by both CFX (E-Pass) and the Turnpike Enterprise (SunPass).

https://www.cfxway.com/for-travelers/expressways/528/
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