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Tolling: ORT / Bill-by-Mail / Cash

Started by PColumbus73, November 22, 2024, 01:01:54 PM

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PColumbus73

I may be in the minority by saying I prefer the option of being able to pay cash (or credit card) over Bill-by Mail. I'm not close enough to any toll road to use a transponder frequently, the closest toll road being US 74 in Monroe, NC.

A couple issues I have with Bill-by-Mail are:

- Simply, I like being able to pay the toll then and there, rather than waiting for a bill that adds additional fees.

- Using North Carolina for example, it's not clear what kind of fees they would add even though the 'default' toll rate is twice as much as the 'discounted' transponder rate for US 74 / Monroe Bypass. I feel like 'fees' associated with using one of their toll roads need to be either incorporated into the toll rate, or clearly disclosed, either on their website or through signage.

I'm not opposed to paying tolls, like the WV Turnpike where I pay at the booth and not have to think about it later. In my opinion, it's the perception that I'm being charged for being tolled, or double-billed for going under a toll gantry. I'm not opposed to ORT, but I think there should be cash booths or credit card receivers as well.



mgk920

Quote from: PColumbus73 on November 22, 2024, 01:01:54 PMI may be in the minority by saying I prefer the option of being able to pay cash (or credit card) over Bill-by Mail. I'm not close enough to any toll road to use a transponder frequently, the closest toll road being US 74 in Monroe, NC.

A couple issues I have with Bill-by-Mail are:

- Simply, I like being able to pay the toll then and there, rather than waiting for a bill that adds additional fees.

- Using North Carolina for example, it's not clear what kind of fees they would add even though the 'default' toll rate is twice as much as the 'discounted' transponder rate for US 74 / Monroe Bypass. I feel like 'fees' associated with using one of their toll roads need to be either incorporated into the toll rate, or clearly disclosed, either on their website or through signage.

I'm not opposed to paying tolls, like the WV Turnpike where I pay at the booth and not have to think about it later. In my opinion, it's the perception that I'm being charged for being tolled, or double-billed for going under a toll gantry. I'm not opposed to ORT, but I think there should be cash booths or credit card receivers as well.



The only real downside that I can see to cash payment options is that the people who they hire to handle that cash have to be paid union scale.  It can get expensive for whoever controls that facility.

Mike

kalvado

Looks like a few - not all - agencies allow pay by plate online right away, even before the bill is sent.
I am almost willing to accept that as a middle ground. It may be more interesting if the plate is registered to the rental agency....

SP Cook

Toll by plate is, and always will be, highly inaccurate, due to the deficiencies in plate reader technology, license plate frames, Georgia University of Alabama alumni plates vs. Alabama University of Georgia alumni plates, Ohio County Kentucky plates, worn out plates, bad data base sharing between states, Canada (and increasingly Mexico), etc.

These issues can cause problems, as some states treat unpaid tolls as criminal acts, or at least use these as a basis for non-renewals or even suspensions.  With no real appellate review.

Cash tolling, while fine on a thing like the WV Turnpike, simply won't work in a place like Miami. 

What we need is a single national (actually including Canada, so multinational) MANDATORY transponder system. 

Rothman

*citation needed on Toll by Plate being "highly inaccurate"*

Yes, there's some inaccuracy, but "highly" would imply that the majority of reads are inaccurate, which is definitely not the case.  At least one agency reports an inaccuracy rate of only 2%: https://abc7news.com/fastrak-toll-bill-mailed-invoice-wrong-license-plate/12091484/
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2024, 11:15:35 AM*citation needed on Toll by Plate being "highly inaccurate"*

Yes, there's some inaccuracy, but "highly" would imply that the majority of reads are inaccurate, which is definitely not the case.  At least one agency reports an inaccuracy rate of only 2%: https://abc7news.com/fastrak-toll-bill-mailed-invoice-wrong-license-plate/12091484/
2% for such massive application is highly inaccurate. It translates to someone talking 2 round-trips per month facing an issue on an annual basis.

kalvado

Quote from: SP Cook on November 23, 2024, 11:00:56 AMWhat we need is a single national (actually including Canada, so multinational) MANDATORY transponder system. 
Honestly speaking, making license plate a remotely readible tag is probably technically feasible and would satisfy ORT needs - and possibly other uses, like parking enforcement.

TheHighwayMan3561

There are also issues with toll systems treating each facility they own separately, so you get separate bills for using different facilities and it may be unclear that you didn't pay your bill in full. As well, not realizing you used facilities run by *different* owners, and that you only paid half your bill.
I make Poiponen look smart

ZLoth

For NTTA, they highly encourage the electronic toll tag over bill-by-mail as there is a 100% premium the the tolls for bill-my-mail over electronic toll collection. The North Texas Tollway Authority (NTTA)  went to all-electronic tolling in the early 2010s and the tollbooths were either removed at the exits or abandoned in place with jersey barriers blocking access.
Don't Drive Distrac... SQUIRREL!

vdeane

I don't trust bill by mail, for the reasons cited.  There are too many horror stories on people being incorrectly billed or first receiving their bill late and having late fees attached.  I also don't like the extra surcharges.  I avoid toll facilities that don't take E-ZPass and don't have the ability to pay by cash/credit card on site.  I might have more willingness to pay online immediately, but I don't have experience with that.

As convenient as AET is, I miss the days when the toll was the toll was the toll.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

1995hoo

Quote from: SP Cook on November 23, 2024, 11:00:56 AM... license plate frames ... 

A fellow I knew in high school (so prior to the era of cashless tolls) had a license plate frame that made his plate appear to have a different number than it did because the middle letter was an "E," but the frame obscured the bottom of the letter so it looked like an "F." He was well aware of it, of course. I don't recall whether he had an identical frame on the front plate. If he didn't, it would have sort of defeated the point of having it that way on the back.

The thing I see more often these days is a heavily tinted plate cover or similar. Those are illegal in most states, but most cops won't pull people over just for that sort of thing because they'll get accused of writing "DWB" tickets.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

PColumbus73

Quote from: mgk920 on November 23, 2024, 09:26:53 AMThe only real downside that I can see to cash payment options is that the people who they hire to handle that cash have to be paid union scale.  It can get expensive for whoever controls that facility.

Mike

I'm perfectly fine with a card or tap reader in lieu of paying cash, no different than exiting a parking garage. It would address having to staff individual toll booths.

I think I read somewhere (MdTA, I think) that after going to ORT they were having trouble with out-of-state drivers not paying tolls? If so, how much revenue are they losing by people either willingly not paying tolls, or invoices getting lost in the mail or by mistake, or forgetfulness? If I went through the Fort McHenry Tunnel and never receive a bill, or forget to pay it, is Maryland going to issue a bench warrant? Would that be worth either Maryland, or my home state's time for me to be extradited for an unpaid toll? Also, at what point would it be considered toll evasion? As soon as I pass through the toll gantry, or 30 days or so after?

The latter few questions might be more philosophical or theoretical, but I don't feel comfortable being put in the position where I 'feel' like I've done something wrong. I think it also punishes out-of-state, or infrequent users more through fees, even though Bill-by-Plate is a higher toll rate, and through the bureaucracy of having to navigate Maryland, or North Carolina's toll payment systems when it could have been as simple as tapping my card at a toll booth.

ran4sh

There are at least some states that are ok with infrequent transponder usage
Center lane merges are the most unsafe thing ever, especially for unfamiliar drivers.

Control cities should be actual cities/places that travelers are trying to reach.

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

pderocco

Quote from: ran4sh on November 23, 2024, 06:33:20 PMThere are at least some states that are ok with infrequent transponder usage
Once tolling becomes frictionless, then there's no reason not to attach account fees on top of the tolls. California is such a state. Once a couple years ago, after doing a pay-by-plate, FasTrak mailed me a stick-on transponder unsolicited, basically saying I could sign up and use it or toss it in the trash. Since the fees are $0 and the tolls are lower, I signed up, and now I only use it maybe once or twice a week, since I'm not a commuter. I used it this morning on an exit where there were about five cars lined up at a toll machine in one lane, and I breezed through in the other lane. I love it.

PColumbus73

Quote from: ran4sh on November 23, 2024, 06:33:20 PMThere are at least some states that are ok with infrequent transponder usage

As a consumer, it doesn't make much sense to me to, as an example, buy an EZ Pass for a road trip that I may never use again. I did go to Long Island for Christmas once several years ago, but I've never been since. It would feel like a waste to me if I were to buy a transponder for that one trip, then have it go unused.

I do use the WV Turnpike for holiday travel once a year, but the tolls are $25 total round trip, so there's not much incentive for me to get an EZ Pass. There's only one toll road in Greenville, SC, and the Palmetto Pass transponders are not interoperable out-of-state.

pderocco

Quote from: PColumbus73 on November 23, 2024, 07:00:01 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 23, 2024, 06:33:20 PMThere are at least some states that are ok with infrequent transponder usage

As a consumer, it doesn't make much sense to me to, as an example, buy an EZ Pass for a road trip that I may never use again. I did go to Long Island for Christmas once several years ago, but I've never been since. It would feel like a waste to me if I were to buy a transponder for that one trip, then have it go unused.

I do use the WV Turnpike for holiday travel once a year, but the tolls are $25 total round trip, so there's not much incentive for me to get an EZ Pass. There's only one toll road in Greenville, SC, and the Palmetto Pass transponders are not interoperable out-of-state.
So EZ Pass doesn't have free stick-on transponders? In California, it costs some money to have the fancier FasTrak transponder that lets you specify whether you have a passenger or not, but for just paying the tolls, there's no extra cost.

ran4sh

Quote from: pderocco on November 24, 2024, 03:05:36 AMSo EZ Pass doesn't have free stick-on transponders? In California, it costs some money to have the fancier FasTrak transponder that lets you specify whether you have a passenger or not, but for just paying the tolls, there's no extra cost.

Most E-ZPass states still use the old case transponders, with a few of them using stickers. As far as I know, Georgia, Illinois, and North Carolina have sticker E-ZPass transponders.

Does California not have a free option for a transponder that allows someone to claim HOV exemptions/discounts/whatever? In Georgia and North Carolina that is handled by getting a free sticker transponder and using a website or phone app to switch HOV status.
Center lane merges are the most unsafe thing ever, especially for unfamiliar drivers.

Control cities should be actual cities/places that travelers are trying to reach.

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

pderocco

Quote from: ran4sh on November 24, 2024, 03:59:49 AM
Quote from: pderocco on November 24, 2024, 03:05:36 AMSo EZ Pass doesn't have free stick-on transponders? In California, it costs some money to have the fancier FasTrak transponder that lets you specify whether you have a passenger or not, but for just paying the tolls, there's no extra cost.

Most E-ZPass states still use the old case transponders, with a few of them using stickers. As far as I know, Georgia, Illinois, and North Carolina have sticker E-ZPass transponders.

Does California not have a free option for a transponder that allows someone to claim HOV exemptions/discounts/whatever? In Georgia and North Carolina that is handled by getting a free sticker transponder and using a website or phone app to switch HOV status.
Maybe they do. I'm rarely with anyone when I'm on the toll roads.

Rothman

For my NYSTA transponder, the transponder was technically free, but some money has to be maintained in my account.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

1995hoo

I got a new transponder earlier this fall to replace one with a dead battery. I didn't have time to exchange it through the mail the way they prefer, so I went to the nearest Virginia DMV. They charged me $35 for the device, but all of that $35 got added to my account balance, so the device is essentially "free" in that there isn't a one-time charge to buy it.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

hbelkins

Quote from: mgk920 on November 23, 2024, 09:26:53 AMThe only real downside that I can see to cash payment options is that the people who they hire to handle that cash have to be paid union scale.  It can get expensive for whoever controls that facility.

Mike

This wasn't the case when Kentucky had staffed toll booths. Toll booth attendants were paid close to minimum wage. Of course, Kentucky doesn't have a unionized public sector, while a lot of other states do.
Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Henry

Of the three systems, Bill-by-Mail is the worst IMO. Give me the old-fashioned Cash tolling any day.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!



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