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When did they started doing enlarged letters

Started by Zxct56y, December 12, 2024, 10:34:14 PM

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Zxct56y

In the USA and in a few places in Canada the North, West, East and South directions have their 1st letter enlarged. I know they started quite recently with this but when they exactly started with this and why they do it.


Bobby5280

The large capital and small capital treatment in cardinal direction lettering for highway signs has been going on in the US for more than a decade. IIRC, it dates back to the early 2000's. The funny thing is those lettering treatments are worthless work-arounds. It's all fake.

None of the highway fonts currently in use or in use in the past have any kind of properly correct small capitals character sets. It does not exist at all in the limited FHWA Series Gothic character set. Clearview Highway does not have native small capitals at all either. But the Clearview One type family does have small capitals in its character set.

It's possible to gracefully fake small capitals in lettering using a variable font that has a variable weight axis. The weight of the large capital letters can be visually balanced with the weight of the small cap letters. But, alas, there are no highway fonts in variable form. Most industry-specific applications for sign making still do not support variable fonts.

hbelkins

I first saw it in use in Kansas in 1991.
Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

wanderer2575

When Michigan first started doing it, they got it wrong -- reducing the size of the other letters instead of enlarging the first.
For example:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/PSra1PJcKLB1BuLF8

Scott5114

Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2024, 11:04:00 PMThe large capital and small capital treatment in cardinal direction lettering for highway signs has been going on in the US for more than a decade. IIRC, it dates back to the early 2000's. The funny thing is those lettering treatments are worthless work-arounds. It's all fake.

None of the highway fonts currently in use or in use in the past have any kind of properly correct small capitals character sets. It does not exist at all in the limited FHWA Series Gothic character set. Clearview Highway does not have native small capitals at all either. But the Clearview One type family does have small capitals in its character set.

It's possible to gracefully fake small capitals in lettering using a variable font that has a variable weight axis. The weight of the large capital letters can be visually balanced with the weight of the small cap letters. But, alas, there are no highway fonts in variable form. Most industry-specific applications for sign making still do not support variable fonts.

lol

uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Zxct56y

#5
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2024, 03:07:54 PMI first saw it in use in Kansas in 1991.
Where in Kansas
The first time i saw those enlarged directions was in 2017 when i went from Montreal to New York City.

US 89

These signs in Salt Lake City with small-capital directions likely date back to when that stretch of I-215 opened in the late 1980s.

ran4sh

Quote from: Zxct56y on December 12, 2024, 10:34:14 PMIn the USA and in a few places in Canada the North, West, East and South directions have their 1st letter enlarged. I know they started quite recently with this but when they exactly started with this and why they do it.

This is only "recent" if you consider the 80s or earlier as recent.

Guidance to have a larger first letter for a direction, was already in the 1988 edition of the MUTCD.

And here it is as a standard in 2000 (although idk when it became standard) 2D.15 in https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/millennium/12.18.00/2D.pdf
Center lane merges are the most unsafe thing ever, especially for unfamiliar drivers.

Control cities should be actual cities/places that travelers are trying to reach.

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ran4sh

See also

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2000/12/18/00-31974/national-standards-for-traffic-control-devices-manual-on-uniform-traffic-control-devices-for-streets

"64. In Section 2D.15 Cardinal Direction Auxiliary Sign, the first letter of cardinal direction messages is increased by 10 percent. Increasing the first letter of cardinal direction signs such as EAST and WEST, helps the road user in the navigation task by providing a clearer distinction between the similar appearance of these two messages. This same principle is true for the NORTH and SOUTH cardinal directions. This change was previously adopted in revision number 5 to the 1988 MUTCD and is mentioned here to bring attention to the compliance date which was December 31, 1994. The FHWA received no docket comments on this section."

So, revision number 5 to the 1988 edition, whenever that was.
Center lane merges are the most unsafe thing ever, especially for unfamiliar drivers.

Control cities should be actual cities/places that travelers are trying to reach.

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

Zxct56y

Quote from: US 89 on December 14, 2024, 06:27:02 PMThese signs in Salt Lake City with small-capital directions likely date back to when that stretch of I-215 opened in the late 1980s.
Interesting discovery! So we have enlarged letters since the late 1980s

Zxct56y

Despite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language

Zxct56y

Quote from: ran4sh on December 14, 2024, 07:10:52 PM
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 12, 2024, 10:34:14 PMIn the USA and in a few places in Canada the North, West, East and South directions have their 1st letter enlarged. I know they started quite recently with this but when they exactly started with this and why they do it.

This is only "recent" if you consider the 80s or earlier as recent.

Guidance to have a larger first letter for a direction, was already in the 1988 edition of the MUTCD.

And here it is as a standard in 2000 (although idk when it became standard) 2D.15 in https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/millennium/12.18.00/2D.pdf
I was referring that it wasn't until like 2011-2012 that they started doing that

JoePCool14

IDOT still doesn't enlargen the first letter on the assembly signs, aside from some contractor installs. District 1 and downstate both. They do, however, enlargen it on BGS. ISTHA does enlargen it for both uses.

IDOT actually made an odd change to the EAST and WEST plaques within the last few years where the text is now series D instead of the more common and correct series C. I guess someone didn't understand why there was blank space to the sides of the words and just unilaterally changed it...

Old standard: https://maps.app.goo.gl/miFcAvkuVPVxfrZ78
New standard: https://maps.app.goo.gl/geHHTkaVxDNAfsbK6

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
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US 89

Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language


Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15 NORD".

vdeane

Quote from: US 89 on December 15, 2024, 12:56:25 PM
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language


Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15 NORD".
Also curious as to the exact reason, but I'm guessing it's "something something French doesn't capitalize as many things as English does".
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Zxct56y

Quote from: US 89 on December 15, 2024, 12:56:25 PM
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language


Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15 NORD".
Well the only direction in french that Kind of looks bad is OUEST (WEST in french) while NORD EST and SUD are fine OUEST is the only that dosen't look good with an enlarged 1st letter

Zxct56y

And enlarged capitals is not restricted to directions only. This sign in New York has every word except the EXIT tab have enlarged capitals

https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ny/i-87/n6.jpg

vdeane

Quote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:45:57 PMAnd enlarged capitals is not restricted to directions only. This sign in New York has every word except the EXIT tab have enlarged capitals

https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ny/i-87/n6.jpg
That's an error that's since been fixed.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Scott5114

Quote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:45:57 PMAnd enlarged capitals is not restricted to directions only. This sign in New York has every word except the EXIT tab have enlarged capitals

https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ny/i-87/n6.jpg

That is the classic three-quarters error, which is described in detail in J.N. Winkler's comment to FHWA regarding the MUTCD 11e.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Rothman

Quote from: vdeane on December 15, 2024, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:45:57 PMAnd enlarged capitals is not restricted to directions only. This sign in New York has every word except the EXIT tab have enlarged capitals

https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ny/i-87/n6.jpg
That's an error that's since been fixed.

A very long time ago, to boot.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Quillz

Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:08:55 PM
Quote from: US 89 on December 14, 2024, 06:27:02 PMThese signs in Salt Lake City with small-capital directions likely date back to when that stretch of I-215 opened in the late 1980s.
Interesting discovery! So we have enlarged letters since the late 1980s
That's when it was added to the MUTCD. It could have been practiced elsewhere earlier, but it wasn't a standard.

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:39:42 PM
Quote from: US 89 on December 15, 2024, 12:56:25 PM
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language


Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15 NORD".
Well the only direction in french that Kind of looks bad is OUEST (WEST in french) while NORD EST and SUD are fine OUEST is the only that dosen't look good with an enlarged 1st letter


One possible reason is that the words nord/sud and est/ouest are a bit more visually distinct from one another than north/south and east/west, at least in terms of width.

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hbelkins

Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 01:58:13 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2024, 03:07:54 PMI first saw it in use in Kansas in 1991.
Where in Kansas
The first time i saw those enlarged directions was in 2017 when i went from Montreal to New York City.

On I-70. I'm not sure if it was present on the Kansas Turnpike section (KC to Topeka) or west of Topeka, but it was prevalent along the length of I-70.

West Virginia was the second place I saw it commonly in use (late 1990s.)
Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language


The 2nd reason is actually the correct reason.

The 1st letter is supposed to be 10%-50% larger than the rest of the word. In my estimation 15%-20% is a typical enlargement, with 10%-25% being normal depending on the state.

My state, NJ, was a little late to the game on many of their signs, but it definitely was common before you took notice to it. In the 1990s most states had converted their signage practices to have a larger first letter.

This standard has nothing to do with Canadian signage.

There's occasional signage errors that should only be treated as errors. Along with the 3/4 issue already mentioned, I've seen TO with the T being larger than the O.

Voyager

I've noticed some ridiculously oversized shields in MA when I visited, there was a I-195 sign that was almost the size of an overhead with oversized fonts crashing against the borders.
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