What is "The South?"

[Scott5114]

I will agree with you that most of Oklahoma seems to belong in the Midwest culturally. The president of my university in Tulsa refers to the area as the "Midwest", so clearly there is some precedent there among residents for including at least some of Oklahoma in the Midwest. Tulsa to me seems more like Wichita or Topeka than it does like Dallas or Little Rock, so I wouldn't say it necessarily belongs in the south or the Texas sub-region.

That being said, parts of Oklahoma do belong in the south. Anything in Oklahoma east of US 271 is definitely southern. I was eating at a Whataburger in Tulsa a couple months ago and a bus full of FFA kids from Antlers came in (presumably they were attending some sort of event in the Tulsa area), and most of them had southern accents.

Off the top of my head, I'd probably draw the line at east of US-75 and south of I-40, though you could make an argument for individual towns or counties. (If you said Ada was Southern I'd probably agree there's an argument to be made there that it is.)

[bwana39]

 

Here is how my BIL in MS makes "Sweet Tea".
Boil 5 or 6 quart sized teabags in a 2-quart saucepan (generally starts with around  a 3 pints  of water)
Boil them HARD for around 10 minutes.
Put half a 4# bag of sugar in the bottom of an empty gallon pitcher.
Pour the tea (usually bags and all) over the sugar.
Allow the sugar to melt (5-10 minutes)
Fish out the bags if they were not previously removed.
Stir well
Top the pitcher with water.
Pour over ice and drink.

SIL (his wife) does it basically the same way. She removes the bags and stirs the steaming tea into the sugar then allows it to sit and melt.

Here is how my grandmother in NE Texas made tea that was sweet.
Use 3 or 4 quart tea bags.
Bring about 3 pints of water to a hard boil.
Remove it from the burner and immediately add the tea bags.  Cover the pan with its lid (or a plate or large saucer)
Allow it to sit until it is mostly cooled (My Mom was a stickler for time but she didn't even drink tea.)
Pour it up in a gallon pitcher.
Add around a cup and a half of sugar.
Top it off with water.
Serve it over ice.

I prefer my tea a little stronger (4 bags for 3 quarts). But I do NOT want ANY sugar, lemon, nor mint in it. Just tea and water.

[kphoger]

I've gave this a lot of thought and these are the states I'd consider Midwestern.

Ohio
Indiana (my home state)
Illinois
Michigan
Wisconsin
Missouri
Minnesota
Iowa
N&S Dakota
Nebraska
Kansas
Oklahoma
Kentucky

I know I'll get some flack for including Kentucky and Oklahoma, but those states feel much more Midwestern than Southern to me. Historically, Kentucky actually ended up siding with the North about a year into the Civil War after initially declaring neutrality. Nearly 4X the amount of Kentuckians fought for the Union as the Confederacy (125K vs 35K). Oklahoma on the other hand wasn't even a state back then, but it has more in common with Kansas and west Texas than the South. I say if the other 4 plains states are included in the Midwest category (as they should be) then most of Oklahoma should also be included.

I agree that Oklahoma is, in general, in the Midwest.  There are parts of it that aren't very Midwestern but, if we have to go by state lines, then I'm counting it.

Kentucky doesn't seem Midwestern to me, though.  It's more Southern, even if it isn't the "real South".  I'm not so sure about including it, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

Missouri is the real oddball.  It doesn't seem to want to fit anywhere.  If you cross a Tennessee hillbilly with a Nebraska pig farmer–that's what Missouri is.

[JayhawkCO]

I feel like Missouri and West Virginia are the two toughest states to assign, especially if you have to use the full state.

[bwana39]

Too expansive. In my experience, the south should not include anything along or west of the I-45 corridor in Texas, nor anything in Oklahoma west of US 69.

Most of Oklahoma and Kansas and even most of northern Texas I would identify as a “Southern Plains” region that shares some features with the south but has stronger affinities with the Midwest, with some western or Mexican influence the farther west or south you go. Tulsa feels way more similar to Omaha than Little Rock. Dallas feels more like Kansas City than Shreveport. And so on…

Most people in the rest of Louisiana (figuratively) think Shreveport IS part of Texas. Bossier City feels just like Longview or Waco. Shreveport proper is a majority minority city is why it doesn't feel like Dallas.

If you want to divide these states up, look back 30 years  at the legacy college football conferences.
The Southwest Conference: Texas and Arkansas.
The Southeast Conference: Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana, Florida
THE ACC:Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas,Maryland,  and Virginia.
The SEC and the ACC were originally together as the SOUTHERN CONFERENCE (1921). This may perfectly describe where the south is.
The Big 8: Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Colorado.

There are transitional areas that don't neatly fit this. SE Oklahoma fits better with Texas as does NW Louisiana. Extreme eastern Arkansas fits better with the deep south.

Texas is like two completely different places with the east being notably more southern than the part from a little east of US-83. The western portion being more ranching and east more farming.

Texas and Oklahoma are only part of the south if you divide it up according to the Union versus the Confederate States.


BTW, in Texas and NW LA, sweetened tea may have been served, but Southern Sweet Tea (syrupy) is something that has crept into Texas, Arkansas , and Northern LA through the past couple of decades.

[StogieGuy7]

I love the battle here between the two "Midwests".  But part of this issue is related to how relatively few years we are removed from the British colonies.  As the "frontier" moved further and further west, the names and meanings have changed.  But those of us who are descended from the early settlers (or taught by them) still refer to the old names.  Like when we refer to Cleveland as the "Western Reserve" and the rest of Ohio as the "Northwest Territory".  When I was growing up, the old folks in West Virginia still referred to Southwestern Pennsylvania and Northwest Pennsylvania as part of the "Midwest".  Bet that wasn't on your radar screen.

Yes, you make a good point here. This is why Northwestern University is not in Washington nor Oregon because it's in Evanston, IL. When it was established, that was the considered the northwest. 

People around western PA still do indeed consider themselves midwesterners as opposed to being in any way similar to those from eastern (espectially southeastern) PA. Coming from Chicago on business to Pittsburgh, it seems very much inland northeast to me, so I find it amusing that they consider it part of the midwest. It seems nothing like Illinois, Wisconsin nor Iowa (places I consider to be core Midwest). However, I can see why the locals think that way: they're on the western slope of the Appalachians, the climate is more like Ohio than it is like New Jersey, and (especially) the area's economy has long been tied to operations that are farther to the west - starting with the early dependence on the Ohio River for commerce.

So, the "Midwest" is as much a frame of mind as it is a region. Personally, I've long been of the opinion that Pittsburgh was the illegitimate child of West Virginia and Brooklyn - but that's just me. 

[Dirt Roads]

The SEC and the ACC were originally together as the SOUTHERN CONFERENCE (1921). This may perfectly describe where the south is.

The one exception is West Virginia University, which didn't enter the Southern Conference in 1950.  Morgantown is right next to the Mason-Dixon Line, and resembles Uniontown more than it resembles Clarksburg (which probably isn't truly Southern, either).  West Virginia's other university (Marshall) entered the conference in 1976 not quite 5 years after the plane crash.  You could make a loose argument that Huntington, West Virginia is "Southern", and might even be slightly more "Southern" than neighboring Ashland, Kentucky.

You might also question whether George Washington (which entered the conference in 1941) counts as Southern, but I think one could make a loose argument that Washington, D.C. had the flair of a "Southern City" back in those days.

[triplemultiplex]

Here is how my BIL in MS makes "Sweet Tea".
...

Here is how my grandmother in NE Texas made tea that was sweet.

Sweet tea barely tastes like tea at all.  It's tea-colored sugar water; sorry y'all.
It's the Bud Light of tea.

[skluth]

Once you get south of Dover, the entire Delmarva Peninsula has a southern feel to me. It's like a little enclave of the South, because I don't get a southern vibe from the Hampton Roads area at all.

Suffolk is absolutely southern, but for the most part you're right. Norfolk, Portsmouth, and the northern cities don't feel that way, and most of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach have grown more urban/suburban, but the areas along the VA/NC border in those two cities still feel southern.

When I lived in Portsmouth, it definitely felt Southern as did Suffolk and Norfolk (except Oceanview which is its own weirdness). Those of my neighbors who grew up in Portsmouth talked with Southern accents and their attitudes were definitely Southern, from their love of NASCAR to their dietary preferences. It also feels Southern not far from where you cross the canal into Great Bridge which is technically in Chesapeake. (Essentially, it becomes Southern when it starts looking rural.) But most of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach are so new and full of transplants that it's more generic American, closer to Orlando or suburban North Dallas than any specific region.

[bing101]

Now this is just my opinion. But here's how I classify the regions.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=12T77XbWyKTZN34_3HvUtaVs0UxyxoFE&usp=sharing

lol @ Lawton, OK being the "Deep South"

(And Altus not. Lawton and Altus are basically copy pastes of each other–southwestern Oklahoma towns with military installations. Unless you think the Army is somehow more Southern than the Air Force.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains
Good point it is on the Great Plains area. Oklahoma is a plains state.

[US 41]

I personally divide things into 4 regions (lower 48): Northeast, Midwest, South, and West.

NE (11): MD, PA, DE, NJ, NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME

MW (14): OH, IN, MI, KY, IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, OK, KS, NE, SD, ND

S (10): VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, TN, AL, MS, LA, AR

W (11): NM, CO, WY, MT, ID, UT, NV, AZ, CA, OR, WA

Wildcards (2): Texas and West Virginia

Texas: The western half of the state is mostly western, while the eastern third is mostly southern. Then you have south Texas which is a completely different animal altogether. Most people in Texas consider themselves Texan first. For about a decade it was its own country. Texas is in a transitioning geographical area, has a complicated history, and is also too big to be considered one region.

WV: West VA is completely in a sub-region called Appalachia. It broke off from VA during the Civil War to join the North, so it's not really Southern. It's too far east to be Midwestern, and it's too far south to be Northeastern. Due to the very rugged mountains it's really a state that is very isolated from everywhere else.

[US 41]

Other explanations:

Delaware and Maryland are south of the outdated Mason-Dixon line. However both states today are Northeastern culturally, which is why I include them in the NE region. Neither state actually left the Union during the Civil War either. Maryland and Delaware are also both tiny states similar to other NE states such as MA, CT, RI, VT, and NH.

The bottom fourth of Kentucky is arguably Southern, but the rest of the state is not. The state stuck with the North during the Civil War and 4X the amount of Kentuckians served for the North than the South. There was an attempt to have a Confederate government in Bowling Green, that failed miserably. Simply put KY is too far north to be southern. It lies directly south of Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois; while sitting directly east of Missouri, all of which are Midwestern states.

Virginia: It's north of the rest of the South, however it is southern. Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy. They had Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson. Most of the state is east of the Appalachian Mountains and is separated from the North by the Chesapeake Bay and the Potomac River.

Southern Missouri is very similar to Kentucky. It is a Midwestern state. It may be more hillbilly than neighboring Iowa, Kansas, and Illinois, but it's still part of the Midwest. As for the Southern stuff, there were people there that wanted to be part of the Confederacy and actually put up a hell of a fight. However Missouri never actually left the Union either. There was a Missouri Confederate government that was actually more successful than the disastrous attempt in KY. I am willing to grant Southerness to the section of SE Missouri that lies between Arkansas and Tennessee.

Oklahoma is a Great Plains state. SE Oklahoma is pretty southern, but the rest of the state shares more in common with the other plains states that are always considered to be part of the Midwest.

[Dirt Roads]

Virginia: It's north of the rest of the South, however it is southern. Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy. They had Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson. Most of the state is east of the Appalachian Mountains and is separated from the North by the Chesapeake Bay and the Potomac River.

Technically correct on Stonewall Jackson, but that is because he died 41 days before his "home state" of West Virginia was created.

[ran4sh]

If you want to divide these states up, look back 30 years  at the legacy college football conferences.
The Southwest Conference: Texas and Arkansas.
The Southeast [sic] Conference: Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana, Florida
THE ACC:Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas,Maryland,  and Virginia.
The SEC and the ACC were originally together as the SOUTHERN CONFERENCE (1921). This may perfectly describe where the south is.
The Big 8: Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Colorado.

Go back a little further and the lines are even more clear. The ACC didn't enter Georgia until 1978 and didn't enter Florida until 1991. Both of those states fit in the Southeastern Conference region based on legacy NCAA affiliation.

[Gnutella]

People around western PA still do indeed consider themselves midwesterners as opposed to being in any way similar to those from eastern (espectially southeastern) PA. Coming from Chicago on business to Pittsburgh, it seems very much inland northeast to me, so I find it amusing that they consider it part of the midwest. It seems nothing like Illinois, Wisconsin nor Iowa (places I consider to be core Midwest). However, I can see why the locals think that way: they're on the western slope of the Appalachians, the climate is more like Ohio than it is like New Jersey, and (especially) the area's economy has long been tied to operations that are farther to the west - starting with the early dependence on the Ohio River for commerce.

Pittsburgh is located in one of the 13 original colonies, which automatically disqualifies it from being Midwestern. Furthermore, its economic ties to the Midwest have been eroded since the deindustrialization of the late 20th century, and now its cultural ties to the Midwest are beginning to erode with the mass influx of people from the East Coast megalopolis.

[formulanone]

My hometown feels so left out.  Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west.  Then where do we fit in?  I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do.  Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.

Corpus Christi feels more like southern Florida than any other part of Texas, IMHO.

It doesn't feel like the rest of the Rio Grande area but much more laid back than the Houston metro. Proximity to beaches and fishing changes a lot of attitudes, economies, deference to environment...

[SP Cook]

IMHO, vis certain states, starting with the one I know best.

West Virginia, I always explain when asked, is made up of different parts each of which is much more like the places they border than they are one another.   

The southern coalfields are classical Appalachia, and are culturally and economically a part of eastern Kentucky, and certainly "southern". 

The Ohio Valley, south of the panhandle, is the fringe Rust Belt, and tied to southern and more specifically south eastern Ohio.   The difference is the proportion of black to white (owing the WV being a Jim Crow state) and the proportion of white Appalachians/white non Appalachians (owing to it being, well, in Appalachia) is different.  This makes it still southern, but just barely.

The northern panhandle and the Fairmont-Clarksburg-Morgantown area are the true Rust Belt, an extension of western Pennsylvania.  Northern. 

The "empty quarter" of WV, the highlands where not very many people live, which means the area where there was not much coal and which was too rugged for railroads and then good roads, is just like similar parts of Virginia and even places like upper east Tennessee.  It is a culturally southern.

South east WV is just like the other hilly counties of Virginia that surround the Great Valley.  Culturally much more like central Virginia.  Certainly southern.

Then comes the three counties of eastern panhandle.  40 years ago, just like the other Great Valley Virginia counties and the most "southern" part of the state.  These were rural areas of marginal agricultural uses.  Of course, 70 years ago the same could have been said about places yet closer to DC.  Today all of it is suburban or exurban.  DC is neither north nor south nor anything.  It is a pool of self-selected people from all over.  Once, but no longer southern.

As to some other states, while there is a transition in much of the country, the eastern shore of Maryland and Delaware have a line.  When are north of the C&D canal, you are as north as north can be.  Philadelphia.  South of it and the culture becomes way southern, almost deep southern very quickly. 

Kentucky is the south, unless you are north of the watertower for Florence "Florence Y'all".  For south bound travelers from places like Detroit, it is that easy to know where the border is.

Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV.  The different parts are more like the states they border than one another. 

[JayhawkCO]

Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV.  The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.

Roughly:

Kansas City - Kansas
Joplin - Oklahoma
Springfield - NW Arkansas
St. Louis - Kentucky
St. Joseph - Nebraska
Bethany - Iowa
Hannibal - Rural Illinois
Columbia - The not nice parts of Chicago
Cape Girardeau - Tennessee
Branson - The "rest of Arkansas"
Lake of the Ozarks - Nevada

[skluth]

Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV.  The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.

St. Louis - Kentucky

WTF??? I lived in St Louis for close to three decades and never once thought it looked like or felt like Kentucky. It also doesn't border Kentucky; Illinois is directly across the river while Kentucky is about 100 miles south. St Louis looks more like Pittsburgh than it does anything in Kentucky though I'd say it looks more like a bigger and dirtier version of the Quad Cities a couple hundred miles to the north than anywhere else.

[roadman65]

St Louis is far from Kentucky and no way resembles it. Maybe Louisville, but not the entire state.

[SP Cook]

St. Louis has always reminded me of Cincinnati, neither of which are southern.  Heavy German influence, admixed with white mountain people who there from poor mountain places not that far away.  This shows in the unusual cuisine, the preference for baseball over football, focus on neighborhoods and what high school one went to, and complex web of ethnic based religion.

[StogieGuy7]

St. Louis has always reminded me of Cincinnati, neither of which are southern.  Heavy German influence, admixed with white mountain people who there from poor mountain places not that far away.  This shows in the unusual cuisine, the preference for baseball over football, focus on neighborhoods and what high school one went to, and complex web of ethnic based religion.

This one is a fair comparison. STL and CIN do have a lot in common: similar scenery, similar culture, similar climate, etc. Not exactly the same, of course, but each is similarly a mix of Midwest and South/border state cultures. Put another way, St. Louis seems to have more in common culturally with Cincy than with Kansas City - which is more of a central plains city.

[OldDominion75]

IMHO, vis certain states, starting with the one I know best.

West Virginia, I always explain when asked, is made up of different parts each of which is much more like the places they border than they are one another.   

The southern coalfields are classical Appalachia, and are culturally and economically a part of eastern Kentucky, and certainly "southern". 

The Ohio Valley, south of the panhandle, is the fringe Rust Belt, and tied to southern and more specifically south eastern Ohio.   The difference is the proportion of black to white (owing the WV being a Jim Crow state) and the proportion of white Appalachians/white non Appalachians (owing to it being, well, in Appalachia) is different.  This makes it still southern, but just barely.

The northern panhandle and the Fairmont-Clarksburg-Morgantown area are the true Rust Belt, an extension of western Pennsylvania.  Northern. 

The "empty quarter" of WV, the highlands where not very many people live, which means the area where there was not much coal and which was too rugged for railroads and then good roads, is just like similar parts of Virginia and even places like upper east Tennessee.  It is a culturally southern.

South east WV is just like the other hilly counties of Virginia that surround the Great Valley.  Culturally much more like central Virginia.  Certainly southern.

Then comes the three counties of eastern panhandle.  40 years ago, just like the other Great Valley Virginia counties and the most "southern" part of the state.  These were rural areas of marginal agricultural uses.  Of course, 70 years ago the same could have been said about places yet closer to DC.  Today all of it is suburban or exurban.  DC is neither north nor south nor anything.  It is a pool of self-selected people from all over.  Once, but no longer southern.

As to some other states, while there is a transition in much of the country, the eastern shore of Maryland and Delaware have a line.  When are north of the C&D canal, you are as north as north can be.  Philadelphia.  South of it and the culture becomes way southern, almost deep southern very quickly. 

Kentucky is the south, unless you are north of the watertower for Florence "Florence Y'all".  For south bound travelers from places like Detroit, it is that easy to know where the border is.

Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV.  The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.

This is spot on about West Virginia. The counties near Pennsylvania are where you start seeing true Italian restaurants rather than glorified pizza places billed as "Italian restaurants" . Southeastern WV feels more like general West Virginia to me than anywhere in Central VA like Appomattox or Farmville.

I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.

[JayhawkCO]

Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV.  The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.

St. Louis - Kentucky

WTF??? I lived in St Louis for close to three decades and never once thought it looked like or felt like Kentucky. It also doesn't border Kentucky; Illinois is directly across the river while Kentucky is about 100 miles south. St Louis looks more like Pittsburgh than it does anything in Kentucky though I'd say it looks more like a bigger and dirtier version of the Quad Cities a couple hundred miles to the north than anywhere else.

Honestly, I think St. Louis reminds me of Louisville or suburban Cinci. Not Kentucky at large. I should have rephrased.

[hbelkins]

I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.

I'd add Cincinnati.