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What is "The South?"

Started by CoreySamson, November 26, 2022, 12:36:31 AM

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JayhawkCO

Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.

I'd add Cincinnati.

You could argue Denver to some degree.


Rothman

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.

I'd add Cincinnati.

You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

JayhawkCO

#277
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.

I'd add Cincinnati.

You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.

East of Denver, Colorado is largely no different than western Kansas, i.e. Midwestern. I was thinking border cities of regions in general, not necessarily the South.  Reading the proceeding quotes, I wouldn't put Baltimore as a border city of the South, Washington serves that area better. Oklahoma City doesn't strike me as that either. Something like Muskogee is closer.

Rothman

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:23:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.

I'd add Cincinnati.

You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.

East of Denver, Colorado is largely no different than western Kansas, i.e. Midwestern. I was thinking border cities of regions in general, not necessarily the South.  Reading the proceeding quotes, I wouldn't put Baltimore as a border city of the South, Washington serves that area better. Oklahoma City doesn't strike me as that either. Something like Muskogee is closer.
Nice tapdance.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Scott5114

I'd be fine with Oklahoma City being considered a border city, though I might argue what it's on the borders of, exactly. OKC is pretty much a watered-down Dallas, which is fine, but you have to consider what the "water" is. And I suppose that's whatever Kansas City is.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:34:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:23:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.

I'd add Cincinnati.

You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.

East of Denver, Colorado is largely no different than western Kansas, i.e. Midwestern. I was thinking border cities of regions in general, not necessarily the South.  Reading the proceeding quotes, I wouldn't put Baltimore as a border city of the South, Washington serves that area better. Oklahoma City doesn't strike me as that either. Something like Muskogee is closer.
Nice tapdance.

Bluntly, I didn't read the preceding batch of quotes that led to the border city convo, so I was just considering which cities were "inflection points". And, I've had a glass of bourbon. :)

Rothman

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:53:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:34:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:23:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.

I'd add Cincinnati.

You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.

East of Denver, Colorado is largely no different than western Kansas, i.e. Midwestern. I was thinking border cities of regions in general, not necessarily the South.  Reading the proceeding quotes, I wouldn't put Baltimore as a border city of the South, Washington serves that area better. Oklahoma City doesn't strike me as that either. Something like Muskogee is closer.
Nice tapdance.

Bluntly, I didn't read the preceding batch of quotes that led to the border city convo, so I was just considering which cities were "inflection points". And, I've had a glass of bourbon. :)
https://youtu.be/Lud3bgEJeTg
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Sctvhound

Having been in southeastern Ohio multiple times there is a border. Once you're north of the Ohio River you're in the Rust Belt. Marietta is a pretty depressed town. Parkersburg I'd also say is a "northern"  city. Feels like you're in western Pennsylvania or northeast Ohio.

Also the television situation there is weird. ABC still comes from Columbus in Marietta while Parkersburg has their own set of small-time affiliates for every other network.

Athens is the definition of "rust belt."  If Ohio University wasn't there the town probably wouldn't even be more than a couple thousand people. Very depressed area.

SP Cook

Quote from: Sctvhound on January 22, 2023, 08:48:26 PM


Also the television situation there is oweird. ABC still comes from Columbus in Marietta while Parkersburg has their own set of small-time affiliates for every other network.


The FCC's plan was for Parkersburg and Clarksburg to be one TV market.  The terrain thought otherwise and both developed separately, historically (before ATSC and its ability to beam multiple signals in one) with Parkersburg having one station, NBC.  The entire market consists of only Wood and Pleasants counties in WV and Washington county OH.  With the Huntington/Charleston stations filling the gap in WV, and the Columbus stations filling the gap in OH.  As such it has traditionally had among the most comical news casts in the country, with no budget and a coverage area of one backwater community where nothing happens.  Still have to get a half hour of "news", which gets to the "they repainted the Piggly Wiggly" level, since nothing ever happens of actual importance. 

Today the station belongs to Grey, which also owns stations in Huntington and Cincinnati and they just cut and paste from them.

hbelkins

Quote from: SP Cook on January 23, 2023, 09:27:30 AM
Quote from: Sctvhound on January 22, 2023, 08:48:26 PM


Also the television situation there is oweird. ABC still comes from Columbus in Marietta while Parkersburg has their own set of small-time affiliates for every other network.


The FCC's plan was for Parkersburg and Clarksburg to be one TV market.  The terrain thought otherwise and both developed separately, historically (before ATSC and its ability to beam multiple signals in one) with Parkersburg having one station, NBC.  The entire market consists of only Wood and Pleasants counties in WV and Washington county OH.  With the Huntington/Charleston stations filling the gap in WV, and the Columbus stations filling the gap in OH.  As such it has traditionally had among the most comical news casts in the country, with no budget and a coverage area of one backwater community where nothing happens.  Still have to get a half hour of "news", which gets to the "they repainted the Piggly Wiggly" level, since nothing ever happens of actual importance. 

Today the station belongs to Grey, which also owns stations in Huntington and Cincinnati and they just cut and paste from them.

And Lexington and Hazard, as well. A lot of WSAZ's traditional coverage area in Kentucky now gets reported on by someone from Hazard, which provides the clips to WSAZ.

I got interviewed a couple of weeks ago by a reporter from Hazard. I don't think the interview ever aired on WYMT, but I heard from several people who saw it on WKYT in Lexington.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

index

For those that are debating whether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa is definitely not Southern. Areas without a Wawa are not necessarily Southern, but may be. I'm going to call this the "Wawa Rule".
I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

US 89

Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 05:36:10 AM
For those that are debating whether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa is definitely not Southern. Areas without a Wawa are not necessarily Southern, but may be. I'm going to call this the "Wawa Rule".

That's going to break down if you try to apply it to north Florida, which is absolutely southern but does have a limited Wawa presence. The one right off 75 in Gainesville comes to mind.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 05:36:10 AM
For those that are debating whether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa is definitely not Southern. Areas without a Wawa are not necessarily Southern, but may be. I'm going to call this the "Wawa Rule".

It's like the "you are west" rule if you have an In-N-Out, but then Texas got them and now they are going to Tennessee. 

Similarly is the Helmans/Best Foods rule.  It's Helmans east of the Rockies, but I know you can find Best Foods east of the Rockies; I found Best Foods in El Paso. 

index

#288
Quote from: US 89 on January 30, 2023, 07:58:46 AM
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 05:36:10 AM
For those that are debating whether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa is definitely not Southern. Areas without a Wawa are not necessarily Southern, but may be. I'm going to call this the "Wawa Rule".

That’s going to break down if you try to apply it to north Florida, which is absolutely southern but does have a limited Wawa presence. The one right off 75 in Gainesville comes to mind.

That's why I specified any area *there*:

Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 05:36:10 AMwhether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa

The rule doesn't apply to Florida because areas there with a Wawa are near universally considered Southern and doesn't need to have many distinctions made (nor is the rule meant to be taken very seriously).

The whole logic behind the joke is that areas in the lower Mid-Atlantic with a Wawa are closer to the more mainstream culture in the region which has been becoming more and more Northern as time goes on, as opposed to the more rural, Southern holdouts which are not major enough or economically linked up to bigger Mid-Atlantic cities to justify having a Wawa there. Having a Wawa is sort of an indicator as to how Northern/non-Southern a particular area in one of those states might be.
I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

hbelkins

Wawa has a presence in Richmond. Any argument that puts forth the position that Richmond is not a part of the South is laughable. The capital of the Confederacy isn't southern?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

index

Quote from: hbelkins on January 30, 2023, 10:42:18 AM
Wawa has a presence in Richmond. Any argument that puts forth the position that Richmond is not a part of the South is laughable. The capital of the Confederacy isn't southern?

Richmond, owing to its strong historical ties, is definitely in the South (*As stated above, I did not intend for my post to be taken seriously, this forum has got to take a joke every now and then. Y'all think I was serious about something called the "Wawa Rule" of all things?*).

But if anyone wants an actual, serious insight:

Having been to RVA plenty of times, I feel more in the Northeast Megalopolis than I do the South, and I get more of a Northern feel from the urban core and immediate residential periphery. Most other Southern cities don't have its row houses, brownstones, and relatively extensive density outside the business district that you can more commonly find in the Northeast. Geographically and historically it is Southern, yes...

...But, based on my experiences and perception while there, it is more culturally and economically tied to the rest of the Northeast these days. Its infrastructure is closely intertwined with the North - I-95 is wider connecting to parts north. The city is also served by an Amtrak link to the NEC and has commuter service to DC. Virginia's largest cities are in an awkward transitional zone between North and South (except NoVA, which I consider fully Northern) and I think it can be fair to say that they are both these days.


I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

westerninterloper

Everything south of the Mason-Dixon Line and Ohio River to Cairo, IL; + Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas. Maybe Southern Missouri. Essentially, where there was slavery in 1860. The South is defined by Slavery.
Nostalgia: Indiana's State Religion

Scott5114

Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
As stated above, I did not intend for my post to be taken seriously, this forum has got to take a joke every now and then. Y'all think I was serious about something called the "Wawa Rule" of all things?

Did you just accuse the forum that's the home of Alanland of being unable to take a joke?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hbelkins

Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
...But, based on my experiences and perception while there, it is more culturally and economically tied to the rest of the Northeast these days. Its infrastructure is closely intertwined with the North - I-95 is wider connecting to parts north. The city is also served by an Amtrak link to the NEC and has commuter service to DC. Virginia's largest cities are in an awkward transitional zone between North and South (except NoVA, which I consider fully Northern) and I think it can be fair to say that they are both these days.

In all honesty, i agree. To me, that area -- and the Hampton Roads area, to be honest -- gives me more of a northeastern vibe than a southern vibe these days.

And I see you list your current location as the place where US 321 goes south in all directions. To be honest, I don't get a southern vibe from that area of Tennessee. I get more of the same feeling I do in western North Carolina, southeastern Kentucky, southwestern Virginia, and most of West Virginia. It's a "mountain" feeling that transcends traditional geographic boundaries.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: hbelkins on January 31, 2023, 03:20:00 PM
And I see you list your current location as the place where US 321 goes south in all directions. To be honest, I don't get a southern vibe from that area of Tennessee. I get more of the same feeling I do in western North Carolina, southeastern Kentucky, southwestern Virginia, and most of West Virginia. It's a "mountain" feeling that transcends traditional geographic boundaries.

Did somebody say something here about Bluegrass music? Break out your fiddle, your banjo, your dobro and your dulcimer (or even better, a zither).

ethanhopkin14

#295
Going with that, what about I-70?  There are some cities I-70 goes through that you may consider southern, yet others that are very not southern.  Example, St. Louis.  Now, I know most will not think of it as southern, but Missouri was considered a southern state, and as the "flagship" city of Missouri, it has a southern feel to it...my opinion, even though geographically it's the Mid-west.

zzcarp

Quote from: Dirt Roads on January 31, 2023, 07:30:02 PM
Did somebody say something here about Bluegrass music? Break out your fiddle, your banjo, your dobro and your dulcimer (or even better, a zither).

If the Bluegrass music scene is a definition of "The South" then Colorado's robust scene on the front range and mountains along with major festivals from Steamboat to Telluride to Golden would fit. I'd suggest few if any bluegrass fans here in Colorado would consider themselves as part of the south.

So many miles and so many roads

Dirt Roads

^^^
Actually, the notion here was that those of us from Bluegrass Country (of Appalachia) is in our own little world. 

index

#298
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:51:47 PM
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
As stated above, I did not intend for my post to be taken seriously, this forum has got to take a joke every now and then. Y'all think I was serious about something called the "Wawa Rule" of all things?

Did you just accuse the forum that's the home of Alanland of being unable to take a joke?

This forum both can and can't take a joke.




Quote from: hbelkins on January 31, 2023, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
...But, based on my experiences and perception while there, it is more culturally and economically tied to the rest of the Northeast these days. Its infrastructure is closely intertwined with the North - I-95 is wider connecting to parts north. The city is also served by an Amtrak link to the NEC and has commuter service to DC. Virginia's largest cities are in an awkward transitional zone between North and South (except NoVA, which I consider fully Northern) and I think it can be fair to say that they are both these days.

In all honesty, i agree. To me, that area -- and the Hampton Roads area, to be honest -- gives me more of a northeastern vibe than a southern vibe these days.

And I see you list your current location as the place where US 321 goes south in all directions. To be honest, I don't get a southern vibe from that area of Tennessee. I get more of the same feeling I do in western North Carolina, southeastern Kentucky, southwestern Virginia, and most of West Virginia. It's a "mountain" feeling that transcends traditional geographic boundaries.

That is definitely a popular concept in the mountains - a lot of West Virginians identify as 'Appalachian' rather than Southern, despite many people from the outside considering West Virginia to be a part of the South. Due to its geographic position, it has influences of Midwestern, Mid-Atlantic, Rust Belt, and Southern, and some people find it hard to classify based on that, but if there is one category it does fit into, it's Appalachian. Not many other areas have a history of things like fighting wars over coal.

Based on my experiences in East Tennessee and Western North Carolina, that cultural phenomenon isn't as commonplace. Many people in those two regions can and will identify as just plain 'Southern'.
I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

formulanone

#299
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:51:47 PM
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
As stated above, I did not intend for my post to be taken seriously, this forum has got to take a joke every now and then. Y'all think I was serious about something called the "Wawa Rule" of all things?

Did you just accuse the forum that's the home of Alanland of being unable to take a joke?

This forum is pretty good at intercepting with ridiculous premise and running it back approximately 2 furlongs in the other direction for a touchdown; eventually calling it back because someone thought the play clock needed to use Series C numerals, not D. Eventually, it's overturned, but not before we find out that two members have sudden trypophobia from staring at the double-zeros on the game clock.



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