Where does the NYC metro area end and the Philly metro begin?

[CapeCodder]

Disclaimer

I figured I would post this here because I was apprehensive about posting in the NE forum, as it might not fit. Mods, if you want to move it to that forum, I understand.

Back in my Greyhound Bus days of traveling to St. Louis for the Christmas season, I'd have to connect in NYC and head west using Schedule #1623 which took us from NYC to Philly with stops in Newark and Camden along the way. I noticed that along the NJTP it was practically wall to wall urban/suburban areas even past 287.

This begs the question: Where does the NYC metro area "stop" and the Philly metro area "begin"? In the NE Megalopolis It's kind of hard to tell (some smaller cities might fit into one or the other or maybe even both, hence why I posted it here in OT.)

[bing101]

Disclaimer

I figured I would post this here because I was apprehensive about posting in the NE forum, as it might not fit. Mods, if you want to move it to that forum, I understand.

Back in my Greyhound Bus days of traveling to St. Louis for the Christmas season, I'd have to connect in NYC and head west using Schedule #1623 which took us from NYC to Philly with stops in Newark and Camden along the way. I noticed that along the NJTP it was practically wall to wall urban/suburban areas even past 287.

This begs the question: Where does the NYC metro area "stop" and the Philly metro area "begin"? In the NE Megalopolis It's kind of hard to tell (some smaller cities might fit into one or the other or maybe even both, hence why I posted it here in OT.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_County,_New_Jersey


This article brings up Ocean County, NJ as a transition area between NYC and Philadelphia areas. 


There are other places in the USA where you can see two different census areas merging together. I know in the West Coast of the USA Solano County, CA is a case where the Sacramento Valley & San Francisco Bay Area are merging together because the city propers are expensive to live in. I-80 Solano County has to handle Sacramento and Bay Area commuters at the same time. I expect in the next 2 decades or so you will see more places in the USA where a suburban area has to serve more than 1 census area. 


I remember Max brought up Temecula, CA as a commuter area for San Diego, Los Angeles and Inland Empire areas.

[webny99]

I'd say Princeton, which roughly correlates with Hightstown if you're looking for a specific point on I-95.

[fmendes]

it think the nyc metro ends probably on the border of the NJ TPKE idk about philly tho

[kkt]

Look at media markets.   Philadelphia TV and radio stations tuned in, newspapers subscribed to.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

PaPa's Tomato Pies
(I think that is where we congregated at for dinner after the I-95/PA Turnpike Golden Point roadmeet)

[plain]

I'd say Princeton, which roughly correlates with Hightstown if you're looking for a specific point on I-95.

I could go along with this. Sounds reasonable.

[webny99]

This article brings up Ocean County, NJ as a transition area between NYC and Philadelphia areas. 

I don't think "transition" is the right word for Ocean County. It's a major summer destination for both cities, but it's not between them.

[Duke87]

NJ can be neatly cut into NYC-oriented and Philly-oriented based on which counties Hagstrom made maps of.

This means Burlington, Camden, Gloucester, Salem, Cumberland, Cape May, and Atlantic counties are Philly-oriented while the rest of the state is NYC-oriented.

Conveniently enough, this also matches up quite nicely with defining things by where the commuter railroads go. NJ Transit and SEPTA both have service terminating in downtown Trenton, right on the Delaware River in Mercer county and thus right on the border by the Hagstrom definition. Also, while Ocean, Monmouth, and Mercer counties all have NJ Transit commuter rail service to NYC, none of the counties south of there do.

[CapeCodder]

NJ can be neatly cut into NYC-oriented and Philly-oriented based on which counties Hagstrom made maps of.

This means Burlington, Camden, Gloucester, Salem, Cumberland, Cape May, and Atlantic counties are Philly-oriented while the rest of the state is NYC-oriented.

Conveniently enough, this also matches up quite nicely with defining things by where the commuter railroads go. NJ Transit and SEPTA both have service terminating in downtown Trenton, right on the Delaware River in Mercer county and thus right on the border by the Hagstrom definition. Also, while Ocean, Monmouth, and Mercer counties all have NJ Transit commuter rail service to NYC, none of the counties south of there do.

I miss the old Hagstrom Maps. I have a Philly Metro street atlas made by Franklin Maps (I wonder if they're even still around?)

[oscar]

This article brings up Ocean County, NJ as a transition area between NYC and Philadelphia areas. 

I don't think "transition" is the right word for Ocean County. It's a major summer destination for both cities, but it's not between them.

That said, the metropolitan and combined statistical areas defined by the U.S. Office of Management and Budget include Ocean County in New York City's CSA, rather than Philadelphia's. Ditto Mercer County NJ (Trenton and Princeton).

Philadelphia's CSA includes these counties bordering New York City's CSA: Burlington County NJ and Bucks County PA. The northern edges of those counties would be where OMB would place the dividing line.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Bulletin-20-01.pdf

Outside of New England, the OMB metro area definitions, and their allocation of areas to one metro/combined area rather than another, are based on county lines. That makes them inherently somewhat arbitrary. Then again, the OP's question calls for an arbitrary response. Is OMB's arbitrary definition of where the New York City area ends, and Philadelphia's begins, demonstrably worse than the arbitrary definitions we've been inventing?

[jeffandnicole]

Ocean County is very much a NYC Market.  Also, it's quite a bit harder for those in the Philly area to get to Ocean County's shore region: The majority of the Philly region basically has the 2 lane NJ 70 and NJ 72 to use to get to that area.  To get to NYC, Ocean County has the GS Parkway and other multi-lane highway options, along with NJ Transit Train options. 

195 gets people between Ocean County and Bucks County, but not the greater Philly area.

Mercer County is certainly a mixed bag.  Much of that area will receive both Philly and NYC TV Stations.  Good highway and train access both directions.  The Princeton/Hightstown area as mentioned is probably a decent dividing line.  With improved access on the NJ Transit NEC and the widened NJ Turnpike, Bucks County & Burlington County has seen more development for those wanting to work in North Jersey/NYC, although they are still very much primarily a Philly market.

The Philly region has long had some NYC representation...Nielson Ratings occasionally included a small rating for some NYC radio stations that cater to sports, such as 660 AM which can come in fairly clear nearly 24/7 due to the lack of competing signals nearby on the dial in the Philly market.

[webny99]

That said, the metropolitan and combined statistical areas defined by the U.S. Office of Management and Budget include Ocean County in New York City's CSA, rather than Philadelphia's. Ditto Mercer County NJ (Trenton and Princeton).

Philadelphia's CSA includes these counties bordering New York City's CSA: Burlington County NJ and Bucks County PA. The northern edges of those counties would be where OMB would place the dividing line.

... Then again, the OP's question calls for an arbitrary response. Is OMB's arbitrary definition of where the New York City area ends, and Philadelphia's begins, demonstrably worse than the arbitrary definitions we've been inventing?

It's not necessarily worse, but practically speaking (and for the purposes of this thread), I don't think we need such an exhaustive definition. To answer the question posed in the OP, all we really need is a rough line that crosses all the main routes between the two cities: in this case, a line from I-95 to US 206 would be more than sufficient. Beyond that, the metros start to curve away from each other anyways, rendering a hard line less and less relevant the further afield you travel.

For example, has it ever occurred to anyone crossing from Burlington County into Ocean County on NJ 72 that they've just crossed from the Philly area into the NYC area? I don't think so, because they're not even traveling in the general direction of either city.

Just for interest, I measured the distance from city hall to city hall. It's 80.47 miles, and the midpoint (roughly 40.25 miles from both) lies almost exactly on the intersection of Scudders Mill and Dey Rd in Plainsboro Center, NJ - right between Princeton and Hightstown. 

[TXtoNJ]

The line's roughly NJ 29/I-195/CR 539. Everything on the shore north of Tuckerton is NYC-oriented. Trenton is mostly NYC-oriented as well, despite proximity to Philly, because of the seat of government and the increased population density in North Jersey relative to South Jersey.

[Henry]

I'd say I-195 is the dividing line for the two areas, with everything north of there part of the NYC area and south of it the Philly area.

There are other places in the USA where you can see two different census areas merging together. I know in the West Coast of the USA Solano County, CA is a case where the Sacramento Valley & San Francisco Bay Area are merging together because the city propers are expensive to live in. I-80 Solano County has to handle Sacramento and Bay Area commuters at the same time. I expect in the next 2 decades or so you will see more places in the USA where a suburban area has to serve more than 1 census area. 


I remember Max brought up Temecula, CA as a commuter area for San Diego, Los Angeles and Inland Empire areas.

In a similar vein, Howard County in MD is the merging point of the Baltimore and Washington metro areas, and my guess is that MD 32 is the dividing line for the two. In NC, it'll probably be Burlington or Mebane that separates the Triangle region (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill) from the Triad (Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point), but I may be wrong and find out that another town is the real merging point.

[TXtoNJ]

^^ I agree that 195 is the division between North and South Jersey (despite the boos from people who think there is such thing as Central Jersey), but I also think that shore towns all the way down to LBI are still in the NYC area, despite being in South Jersey.

[qguy]

Wherever people stop calling the sandwiches subs and start calling them hoagies. I'm not sure where that is, but find that line and you'll know where NYC ends and Phila begins.

[kevinb1994]

Wherever people stop calling the sandwiches subs and start calling them hoagies. I'm not sure where that is, but find that line and you'll know where NYC ends and Phila begins.

I've seen Hoagie Haven used in Princeton.

[Takumi]

Wherever people stop calling the sandwiches subs and start calling them hoagies. I'm not sure where that is, but find that line and you'll know where NYC ends and Phila begins.

So where Wawas start appearing?

[TXtoNJ]

Wherever people stop calling the sandwiches subs and start calling them hoagies. I'm not sure where that is, but find that line and you'll know where NYC ends and Phila begins.

So where Wawas start appearing?

There's a Wawa on Route 18, though, and that's def still NYC area

[Mr. Matté]

^^ I agree that 195 is the division between North and South Jersey (despite the boos from people who think there is such thing as Central Jersey)

Do you also think there's no such thing as strawberry ice cream and only vanilla and chocolate exist?

[hotdogPi]

"There are only two Jerseys. Change my mind."

[Scott5114]

"There are only two Jerseys. Change my mind."

Ever seen what an entire football team wears?

[oscar]

Wherever people stop calling the sandwiches subs and start calling them hoagies. I'm not sure where that is, but find that line and you'll know where NYC ends and Phila begins.

So where Wawas start appearing?

There's a Wawa on Route 18, though, and that's def still NYC area

Also three in Neptune, within Monmouth County. at least. Wawa seems to be expanding its North Jersey presence, as is has already in the Mid-Atlantic states down to Hopewell VA, and also in parts of FL.

[Takumi]

Wherever people stop calling the sandwiches subs and start calling them hoagies. I'm not sure where that is, but find that line and you'll know where NYC ends and Phila begins.

So where Wawas start appearing?

There's a Wawa on Route 18, though, and that's def still NYC area

Also three in Neptune, within Monmouth County. at least. Wawa seems to be expanding its North Jersey presence, as is has already in the Mid-Atlantic states down to Hopewell VA, and also in parts of FL.

To my knowledge, they've gone east from Hopewell to Hampton Roads (I know for sure there's one on the east side of Williamsburg), but not into North Carolina.