Virginia

[plain]

I noticed I-295/Va288 and the Richmond Beltway concept being discussed in this thread. I've been thinking about this for a while now. I'm pretty sure some of you know about one of VDOT's old plans to extend 295 (which much of it of course was to be a rerouted 95) to I-85... which brings me back to the beltway thing: instead of just stopping at 85, how about this..



I think this would serve both local and interstate traffic better than all of the old proposals suggested, plus it would make one hell of a beltway/twin bypass

Not totally familiar with that part of Chesterfield, but IIRC it's not particularly developed. I don't think Richmond really needs a second bypass, as I-295 and VA-288 handle most traffic fairly well. A freeway connection between I-295 and I-85 would be useful, but I don't see it in the cards.

I'm thinking about future growth in the metro (it's already growing in a pretty fast clip now) plus 288 between I-95 and VA10 already sees a high volume of traffic, especially during rush hours

[plain]

I noticed I-295/Va288 and the Richmond Beltway concept being discussed in this thread. I've been thinking about this for a while now. I'm pretty sure some of you know about one of VDOT's old plans to extend 295 (which much of it of course was to be a rerouted 95) to I-85... which brings me back to the beltway thing: instead of just stopping at 85, how about this..

I think this would serve both local and interstate traffic better than all of the old proposals suggested, plus it would make one hell of a beltway/twin bypass

Well Chesterfield wants to ultimately have the East-West Freeway (see the freeway line that goes to US 360 as the Powhite Pkwy Extension and curves to the east paralleling VA 288 to the south) built at some point.  I also remembering reading about a North-South Freeway to I-85 somewhere in the distant future.

Personally, I would prefer a 6-laned VA 288 and improvements at the I-95/VA 288 interchange before the East-West Freeway.  Also Chesterfield County is currently planning improvements at the I-95 interchange with VA 10 and the VA 288 interchange at Commonwealth Centre Pkwy (SR 2055).

There was once a proposal to have I-195 go to Petersburg. Don't recall if a routing had been suggested

Does the North-South Freeway have anything to do with that?

^ Anyone notice VA 156 is likely the most convoluted state highway in Virginia?

I nominate VA 337

I want to say VA 165 despite it being in a mostly northwest-southeast orientation from VA 337 in Norfolk to VA 149.  The main convolution comes on the east-west part from US 17 Bus to VA 149 obviously.  I will agree that I am not fond of the routing of VA 156 north of the James River.  (Personally I would have it end in Hopewell and delete the VA 156 Bypass Route.  I may be biased since VA 156 in Prince George was practically the most important road in my life as a child.)

Yes I remember the proposal to extend the Powhite in a loop back to 95. I think that would be silly given the fact that such an east-west expressway would be only 5 or so miles south of 288 by the time it reaches southern chesterfield. I think the Powhite should be extended to US 360 and that's it. And if VDOT is even going to do that then they should get a move on it before Chesterfield let developers block the path... remember the whole 295/288/John Rolfe Parkway fiasco? Lol

Oh and yes, VA 165 is definitely the weirdest running route in Virginia. Not sure what the state was thinking with that one

[LM117]

A freeway connection between I-295 and I-85 would be useful, but I don't see it in the cards.

I agree. An extension of I-295 to I-85 would allow northbound I-85 traffic heading towards DC and points north and vice-versa to avoid Petersburg altogether. I remember living in Farmville (2009-2011) and taking US-460/I-85 to I-95 south when I would visit a couple of friends in Goldsboro, NC. I definitely would've put that I-295 extension to good use if it had been built. Let's just say that I'm not a fan of the I-85/I-95 interchange.

I'm also surprised VA-288 hasn't become an I-x95 or I-x64. It would make sense, IMO.

[Takumi]

The Powhite extension corridor is pretty close to some development right where it would split from Old Hundred, but otherwise from what I can tell it would be mostly going through undeveloped areas. The East-West Freeway seems superfluous right now.

[cpzilliacus]

Oh and yes, VA 165 is definitely the weirdest running route in Virginia. Not sure what the state was thinking with that one

There are other strange state routes in Virginia.  One is Va. 237, which runs from the City of Fairfax almost to Washington, D.C.

Fixed link for you.  -Mark

[Jmiles32]

A freeway connection between I-295 and I-85 would be useful, but I don't see it in the cards.

I'm also surprised VA-288 hasn't become an I-x95 or I-x64. It would make sense, IMO.

It's so interesting how different VA is on building and designating new interstates compared to say NC. If VA was anything like NC, then VA-288, VA-895, VA-164 in Hampton Roads, and VA-28 in Northern Virginia would all be interstate highways. Lol NC will call a road not even up to interstate standards an interstate(I-295), while VA is perfectly fine not changing anything to avoid even remote confusion.

[74/171FAN]

Oh and yes, VA 165 is definitely the weirdest running route in Virginia. Not sure what the state was thinking with that one

There are other strange state routes in Virginia.  One is Va. 237, which runs from the City of Fairfax almost to Washington, D.C.

When it comes to weird for me, it would be a tie between VA 189 and VA 237 since both follow unneeded decently-long concurrencies between with US 58 and US 29 respectively for their intentions (VA 189 is debatably unnecessary as discussed before).  VA 2 does more despite its long concurrency with US 301.

Lol NC will call a road not even up to interstate standards an interstate(I-295), while VA is perfectly fine not changing anything to avoid even remote confusion.

See here.  It was only a prop since NC 295 is still planned to ultimately be I-295.

[LM117]

A freeway connection between I-295 and I-85 would be useful, but I don't see it in the cards.

I'm also surprised VA-288 hasn't become an I-x95 or I-x64. It would make sense, IMO.

It's so interesting how different VA is on building and designating new interstates compared to say NC. If VA was anything like NC, then VA-288, VA-895, VA-164 in Hampton Roads, and VA-28 in Northern Virginia would all be interstate highways.

VDOT actually intended for VA-895 to become I-895, but tolls prevented that since federal funds was used to build the road. It's the same reason NC-540 around Raleigh isn't I-540.

[oscar]

Washington Post: Should Alexandria rename Jefferson Davis Highway, keep other Confederate symbols?

The Jefferson Davis Highway in Alexandria should be renamed and the Confederate memorial statue in Old Town should stay, a group convened to address vestiges of the Civil War is recommending to the city council.

As shown in the full article, this is a fairly moderate recommendation. But I hope the "case-by-case" consideration of renaming streets with less obvious Confederate associations (some of them really tenuous, IMO) results in no further name changes.

Jefferson Davis Highway is a special case -- the Confederate association is really obvious, and Jefferson Davis wasn't a Virginian anyway. It helps also that JDH is also U.S. 1, which helps a lot with giving and revising directions to businesses along the highway. Indeed, it could be named "US 1", to avoid the confusion of giving it a brand-new name.

There would still be some confusion with Jefferson Davis Highway in Arlington County, which Arlington officials would like to rename but would need (and failed so far to obtain) approval from the state legislature. Other major thoroughfares with less blatant Confederate associations, like Lee Highway (part of U.S. 29). which is named for a former Arlington resident and also is used in a lot of street addresses, could be left intact.

[1995hoo]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone call it by its name. Everyone calls it "Route 1."

[plain]

A freeway connection between I-295 and I-85 would be useful, but I don't see it in the cards.

I'm also surprised VA-288 hasn't become an I-x95 or I-x64. It would make sense, IMO.

It's so interesting how different VA is on building and designating new interstates compared to say NC. If VA was anything like NC, then VA-288, VA-895, VA-164 in Hampton Roads, and VA-28 in Northern Virginia would all be interstate highways.

VDOT actually intended for VA-895 to become I-895, but tolls prevented that since federal funds was used to build the road. It's the same reason NC-540 around Raleigh isn't I-540.

Plus VA 28 still as a couple intersections at-grade.

VA 895 can't become an interstate until the feds are paid the $9m (out of the total $300m+ that was spent to build it) they are owed and the operators can't even afford to pay that back smdh.

VA 288 and VA 164 can definitely be interstates though. Matter of fact VA 150 could've been one too all the way up to Forest Hill Ave, but I guess they can't do that because of the 2 right-in/right-out junctions on the expressway  between Jeff Davis Hwy and Hopkins Rd

[froggie]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone call it by its name. Everyone calls it "Route 1."

North of Old Town, yes.  But through Old Town the streetnames are occasionally heard, and "Richmond Hwy" is regularly used through Fairfax County.

Matter of fact VA 150 could've been one too all the way up to Forest Hill Ave, but I guess they can't do that because of the 2 right-in/right-out junctions on the expressway  between Jeff Davis Hwy and Hopkins Rd

VA 150 also has some substandard shoulders and bridges.  Good enough for a 6-lane freeway.  Not good enough for Interstate designation.

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post: Should Alexandria rename Jefferson Davis Highway, keep other Confederate symbols?

The Jefferson Davis Highway in Alexandria should be renamed and the Confederate memorial statue in Old Town should stay, a group convened to address vestiges of the Civil War is recommending to the city council.

As shown in the full article, this is a fairly moderate recommendation. But I hope the "case-by-case" consideration of renaming streets with less obvious Confederate associations (some of them really tenuous, IMO) results in no further name changes.

I am no fan of Jefferson Davis or the treasonous and illegal Confederate "government" that he headed. However, his name has been on long sections of U.S. 1 in Virginia for much longer than I have been alive, and it does not especially bother me that the name remains. 

While we are on the subject of named highways in Virginia, what bothers me much more is the total disappearance of Henry G. Shirley's name from I-95 and I-395 from the Occoquan River to the 14th Street Bridge.

Jefferson Davis Highway is a special case -- the Confederate association is really obvious, and Jefferson Davis wasn't a Virginian anyway. It helps also that JDH is also U.S. 1, which helps a lot with giving and revising directions to businesses along the highway. Indeed, it could be named "US 1", to avoid the confusion of giving it a brand-new name.

Though the far north end of Jefferson Davis Highway is Va. 110, not U.S. 1.  Admittedly, it's not a big deal, since I do not believe there are any buildings that have a street address on the Va. 110 part of Jeff Davis.

There would still be some confusion with Jefferson Davis Highway in Arlington County, which Arlington officials would like to rename but would need (and failed so far to obtain) approval from the state legislature. Other major thoroughfares with less blatant Confederate associations, like Lee Highway (part of U.S. 29). which is named for a former Arlington resident and also is used in a lot of street addresses, could be left intact.

Wonder how Fairfax County was able to name their section of U.S. 1 as Richmond Highway instead of Jefferson Davis Highway.   It's been Richmond Highway for as long as I can remember.

[froggie]

Wonder how Fairfax County was able to name their section of U.S. 1 as Richmond Highway instead of Jefferson Davis Highway.   It's been Richmond Highway for as long as I can remember.

Mike and I have found evidence that suggests the Richmond Hwy designation in Fairfax County predates the Jefferson Davis Hwy designation statewide.

[cpzilliacus]

When it comes to weird for me, it would be a tie between VA 189 and VA 237 since both follow unneeded decently-long concurrencies between with US 58 and US 29 respectively for their intentions (VA 189 is debatably unnecessary as discussed before).  VA 2 does more despite its long concurrency with US 301.

Agreed about Va. 2.

I think I have been on Va. 189 once, and not recently, but it could probably go away without much damage.

The eastern part of 237, from Va. 120 to U.S. 50, is not very well signed (I don't think the relatively new signs on U.S. 50 westbound mention it at all), but it is IMO a worthy state highway. 

The "western" part of 237 on Pickett Road in the City of Fairfax, is mostly or entirely  unsigned.

Maybe VDOT is planning to decommission it entirely?

[Thing 342]

There is a lot of weirdness in VA when it comes to route endpoints (I believe that this is mostly due to maintenance funding - secondaries receive less than primaries do), but there are examples that still confound me. For example, why does VA-35 end at a bunch of secondary routes, rather than at I-95 (or even US-301) less than a quarter mile away?

[Takumi]

I think VA 189 is like VA 2, where it predates its US route concurrency. VA 35's end is pretty odd, but I have a couple of (most likely wrong) theories. There was a VDOT building on the part past 95/301 (I think it's been repurposed now), and the place where it ends was the original routing of US 301's predecessor, US 17-1, and it could have been routed there by mistake when the interchange was being built there.

[plain]

Matter of fact VA 150 could've been one too all the way up to Forest Hill Ave, but I guess they can't do that because of the 2 right-in/right-out junctions on the expressway  between Jeff Davis Hwy and Hopkins Rd

VA 150 also has some substandard shoulders and bridges.  Good enough for a 6-lane freeway.  Not good enough for Interstate designation.

Good Point.

There is a lot of weirdness in VA when it comes to route endpoints (I believe that this is mostly due to maintenance funding - secondaries receive less than primaries do), but there are examples that still confound me. For example, why does VA-35 end at a bunch of secondary routes, rather than at I-95 (or even US-301) less than a quarter mile away?

Yep. Virginia has always had primary highways that ended at secondary roads... At one point I used to live about 5 miles from the end of VA 271, which also ends at secondaries. Matter of fact look at the eastern shore smh. And if the state is going to do that then US 33 (instead of "VA 33") might as well terminate at the bay like US 360 does.

[amroad17]

I agree with VA 165 and VA 337 being more convoluted than even VA 156.  At least VA 156 has a general north/south direction.  VA 165 has an east/west direction through Chesapeake, heads northeast/southwest in Virginia Beach until it reaches the courthouse area, turns northwest/southeast there to Norfolk, where in its final miles goes west/east.  It runs for nearly 40 miles, but endpoint to endpoint is around 15 miles apart.  As for VA 337, it really should have been signed a north/south route instead of east/west.  Yes, it goes east/west basically from Driver in Suffolk to the other side of the Jordan Bridge but overall it goes more north/south than east/west.

[1995hoo]

....

The eastern part of 237, from Va. 120 to U.S. 50, is not very well signed (I don't think the relatively new signs on U.S. 50 westbound mention it at all), but it is IMO a worthy state highway. 

The "western" part of 237 on Pickett Road in the City of Fairfax, is mostly or entirely  unsigned.

Maybe VDOT is planning to decommission it entirely?

I seem to recall that 237 used to run on Old Lee Highway from central Fairfax City past St. Leo's to Fairfax Circle. Is that memory correct? If so, I doubt it was ever signed when they moved it to Pickett.

[Mapmikey]

Va 165 has always had the loop out to Princess Anne and for a time also extended via ferry to Newport News. Its predecessor Va 502 also did the loop but then also zigzagged northeast to Shore Dr

I never found a citation for Va 35's extension past its original US 301 endpoint.

The plan to extend I195 to Petersburg came from the city of Richmond in 1977 (See the apr 77 CTB or the i195 entry at vahighways.com

The random end points of va routes goes back to how they divvied up mileage prior to 1943 and there used to be way more stubs

Mike
Olden Norway

[cpzilliacus]

I seem to recall that 237 used to run on Old Lee Highway from central Fairfax City past St. Leo's to Fairfax Circle. Is that memory correct? If so, I doubt it was ever signed when they moved it to Pickett.

I trust Mapmikey and Adam (Froggie here) on such matters, and their Virginia Highways Project entry for 237 does indeed show it using Old Lee Highway.

IMO that made more sense than the routing down Pickett Road, though the routing on Pickett may have been motivated by the presence of the large tank farm and associated petroleum pipeline-to-truck intermodal facility there.

[1995hoo]

Recall Pickett also followed a different route until the late 1980s or 1990–it was a two-lane road once you passed the tank farm and it hooked around via what is now Old Pickett. It got discovered as a shortcut and was widened when I was in high school. The 1988 rerouting noted at that link would have been at about that time. I think, if memory serves, the widening and rerouting was finished a year or two before Blake Lane was extended from Route 29 to Route 50, because I know that opened in 1990 or 1991 (I recall this because at the time I worked near that intersection). Perhaps the widening was the impetus for making Pickett a primary route.

(My parents have lived off 236 about two miles east of the intersection with Pickett since 1983, and my brother and I attended Woodson HS, so I've spent a lot of time on Pickett Road over the years.)


Edited to add: BTW, the fact that Blake Lane used to end at the light where the IHOP is now located is probably one major reason why 237's current routing has that odd jog west to the circle–when the number was assigned to Pickett, you couldn't go straight through to Route 29 yet.

[cpzilliacus]

Recall Pickett also followed a different route until the late 1980s or 1990–it was a two-lane road once you passed the tank farm and it hooked around via what is now Old Pickett. It got discovered as a shortcut and was widened when I was in high school. The 1988 rerouting noted at that link would have been at about that time. I think, if memory serves, the widening and rerouting was finished a year or two before Blake Lane was extended from Route 29 to Route 50, because I know that opened in 1990 or 1991 (I recall this because at the time I worked near that intersection). Perhaps the widening was the impetus for making Pickett a primary route.

I suspect the presence of the tank farm, and the City of Fairfax not wanting HAZMAT carriers to head west on 236 through the downtown area.

(My parents have lived off 236 about two miles east of the intersection with Pickett since 1983, and my brother and I attended Woodson HS, so I've spent a lot of time on Pickett Road over the years.)

Never lived in the Commonwealth, but  I  have done traffic studies there, especially involving the tank farm, so I know it pretty well.  Not sure what year I drove it first.

Edited to add: BTW, the fact that Blake Lane used to end at the light where the IHOP is now located is probably one major reason why 237's current routing has that odd jog west to the circle–when the number was assigned to Pickett, you couldn't go straight through to Route 29 yet.

I suspect that the HAZMAT transports may have something to do with the screwball routing of 237 - and perhaps because someone did not want those trucks on Blake Lane  (Va. 655) (IIRC, the trucks may legally go east [north] on U.S. 29/Va. 237 toward Va. 243 (Nutley Street) and Falls Church; or west [south] on U.S. 29/U.S. 50 toward Va. 123.

They  may not go east on U.S. 50 because of the 8 ton gross weight limit east of Fairfax Circle.

[1995hoo]

Regarding the Confederate names thing, this morning when we were stopped at a red light we were looking at a Jeff Davis Highway* sign and we were talking about how there doesn't seem to be any movement to rename Lee Highway or Lee-Jackson Memorial Highway. Setting aside that both Lee and Jackson were from Virginia and that Lee lived at what is now Arlington Cemetery, I couldn't help but wonder whether the use of Davis's full name might be part of the difference. It "feels" more obvious a connotation than if it were simply "Davis Highway." I wonder how many people don't necessarily realize "Lee Highway" refers to Robert E. Lee. I'm sure it's more than many of us suspect. Back when Virginia observed Lee-Jackson-King Day on the third Monday in January, I knew quite a few people (most of them transplants from elsewhere) who asked, in complete sincerity, "Who is Lee Jackson King?"

I was somewhat amused when my wife commented that she never hears anyone refer to Jefferson Davis Highway as such because everyone we know calls it "Route 1," in part because of how it changes names as you move through Arlington, Alexandria, and Fairfax County. It made me think of froggie's purported "correction" to my prior comment. No doubt his statement about there being people who call the Fairfax part "Richmond Highway" is accurate, but it doesn't make my comment "wrong" when I said everyone I know calls it "Route 1." It's definitely kind of odd how some roads get called by name and others by number and there doesn't seem to be a lot of logic as to which ones get which treatment. My unscientific observation is that the older the person speaking, the more likely it is that they'll say "Arlington Boulevard" or "Lee Highway" instead of "50" or "29," respectively. I have no idea whether use of names, rather than numbers, was more prevalent in the 1950s and 1960s (I was not yet born), but I do recall in the late 1970s/early 1980s people tended to use the names more often. That's definitely shifted over time, and I'm not just referring to Confederate-named streets when I say that. (Then you have Bob Marbourg, who often calls the Beltway "495." I think that seemed to become less common in general during the era when the eastern side was just I-95. Saying "the Beltway" avoids any ambiguity or risk of giving bad information, much like saying "Route 1" means you don't need to worry about whether that segment is technically Patrick Street or Jeff Davis Highway or whatever.)

My general feeling on the current renaming fad is that it's a poor use of public funds that could be better spent elsewhere.


*The signs on Alexandria's portion say "Jeff Davis" and the signs on Arlington's say "Jefferson Davis."