Virginia

[roadman65]

Also why is US 460 aligned to bypass Portsmouth but not Norfolk?  I always thought that sending US 460 on Military Highway to the south of the Hampton Roads area and then directly north into Norfolk was kind of odd.  Then the ALT route of US 460 (that should be really US 460) starting off with US 58 from Bowers Hill then hopping on the freeway of I-264 to go through the Downtown Tunnel over the Midtown Tunnel is odd as well.  Considering that US 58 goes through the Midtown and meets US 460 mainline in Downtown Norfolk at the Scope Coliseum should have had that designation stay on 58 all the way.

I understand that before the freeways US 58 going through both cities was the way to serve their downtowns and other neighborhoods more direct along with US 13 on Military Highway being the bypass of those cities, but US 460's awkward routing makes no sense for a straight through motorists to use in the pre-freeway era.  In fact US 460 heading east of Suffolk IMO seems like a waste of US route designation.

US 460 in the Tidewater area has been a strange bird.

First, when it was created in 1933, US 460 did not follow US 58 from Suffolk to Portsmouth either.  It instead used today's VA 337 via Driver, until 1942.

Initially, 460 briefly used the US 58 ferry from Portsmouth to Norfolk then northeast to Chesapeake Beach (makes some sense as a way to get to the Kiptopeke Ferry area).  In late 1934, US 460 was rerouted to use the original Jordan Bridge.

Not long after Military Highway opened from Bowers Hill to east of the Gilmerton Bridge, US 460 was routed that way as a free alternative to get to Norfolk (US 58 ferry and Jordan Br were both tolled).  At about the same time, US 13 was extended south across the ferry and US 460 was rerouted to end in downtown Norfolk, still as a free alternative to the toll crossings to Norfolk.  This was in the 1942-43 timeframe.

When the Downtown Tunnel and Berkley Bridge opened in 1952, the Bowers Hill split presented Norfolk as being via tunnel (US 460 ALT) or bridge (via US 460), although the free vs toll thing was still in play. See the pic below from the 1957 Virginia Highways Bulletin. As was common at the time in Virginia (though not absolute), bypass routes were given the ALTERNATE designation.  US 460 ALT today is terribly posted so its utility today is highly questionable.

What is more curious to me is the 1959 extension out to Ocean View.  Would've made some sense if the new Tidewater Dr was where they put it to give a path to the new HRBT but to have two primary routes head that way (VA 168) seems odd.

Thanks for the imput and the photo.  It does make sense now that you had a free bridge and a tolled tunnel.  In Savanah, GA they did the same with US 17 as they opened the Talmage Bridge as a tolled facility, so they created US 17 ALT to use that while those shunpiking used the mainline US 17 which was longer.

I knew there had to be a reason as with today you do not see it.

As far as both US 460 and VA 168 both going to the HRBT, VA 168 was the main route on both sides of Hampton Roads.  I know in Newport News  US 60 was built to lower quality standards on Warwick Blvd. then VA 168 which used to use Jefferson Avenue and Merrimac Trail which was much better standards.  In fact only from VA 5 to VA 132 was the only part of old 168 that was two lanes from the Hampton Roads to VA 168Y which connected to US 60 for those on 168 to continue on to Richmond while VA 168 went to West Point to terminate at VA 33.  Even an article on Wikipedia said VA 168 was the main artery of the Virginia Peninsula and not US 60.

Therefore south of the tunnel VA 168 was the main road (hence why US 60 exits itself at a directional interchange in Willoughby Spit) and took the main bridge traffic. to Norfolk and beyond as VA 168 did (and still does go) to NC and the Outer Banks.

[D-Dey65]

Nice to see RMTA replaced the red & green orbs with X's & arrows, plus the digital signs right below them. The plaza looks even cooler now. Thanks for posting, I will drive the bridge tomorrow to get a look.

So what did you think of it?

[hbelkins]

It's amusing to me that while we all think fondly of cutouts as old-style shields, those are definitely not cutouts.

Looking at those, I'm picturing a roadgeek Queen tribute band singing "Fat Bottomed Shields."

Someone, I think it was Adam Prince, coined the term "chipmunk shields" for those of that style.

[plain]

Nice to see RMTA replaced the red & green orbs with X's & arrows, plus the digital signs right below them. The plaza looks even cooler now. Thanks for posting, I will drive the bridge tomorrow to get a look.

So what did you think of it?

The toll plaza is nice. Basically the only difference from the last time I crossed the bridge is the signals on top of the plaza, plus the variable message signs right below it, as I said before. It has a modern, yet still classic look to it.

[Mapmikey]

As far as both US 460 and VA 168 both going to the HRBT, VA 168 was the main route on both sides of Hampton Roads.  I know in Newport News  US 60 was built to lower quality standards on Warwick Blvd. then VA 168 which used to use Jefferson Avenue and Merrimac Trail which was much better standards.  In fact only from VA 5 to VA 132 was the only part of old 168 that was two lanes from the Hampton Roads to VA 168Y which connected to US 60 for those on 168 to continue on to Richmond while VA 168 went to West Point to terminate at VA 33.  Even an article on Wikipedia said VA 168 was the main artery of the Virginia Peninsula and not US 60.

Therefore south of the tunnel VA 168 was the main road (hence why US 60 exits itself at a directional interchange in Willoughby Spit) and took the main bridge traffic. to Norfolk and beyond as VA 168 did (and still does go) to NC and the Outer Banks.

Yes...US 60 followed the Colonial Era routing and VA 168 was built as new construction in the late 1930s as a multilane direct highway.  It is a little surprising US 60 wasn't moved to it when the VA 168Y connector was built around 1942.

[plain]

Virginia's Draft FY 2020 six year plan (SYIP) is out...

...rehab and widen I-195 over CSX RR (construction FY 25)

...widen VA 171 btw US 17 and VA 134 (construction FY 25)

That VA 171 widening is long overdue.

As for I-195 over the railroad tracks, it definitely needs to be rehabilitated, but widening?? I say this because maybe it would work only NB, but heeeelllllll no SB. Not sure what VDOT is thinking with this.

[Beltway]

Virginia's Draft FY 2020 six year plan (SYIP) is out...
...rehab and widen I-195 over CSX RR (construction FY 25)
...widen VA 171 btw US 17 and VA 134 (construction FY 25)

That VA 171 widening is long overdue.
As for I-195 over the railroad tracks, it definitely needs to be rehabilitated, but widening?? I say this because maybe it would work only NB, but heeeelllllll no SB. Not sure what VDOT is thinking with this.

Is this the bridge that they are referring to?
https://tinyurl.com/y266p7rw

[roadman65]

As far as both US 460 and VA 168 both going to the HRBT, VA 168 was the main route on both sides of Hampton Roads.  I know in Newport News  US 60 was built to lower quality standards on Warwick Blvd. then VA 168 which used to use Jefferson Avenue and Merrimac Trail which was much better standards.  In fact only from VA 5 to VA 132 was the only part of old 168 that was two lanes from the Hampton Roads to VA 168Y which connected to US 60 for those on 168 to continue on to Richmond while VA 168 went to West Point to terminate at VA 33.  Even an article on Wikipedia said VA 168 was the main artery of the Virginia Peninsula and not US 60.

Therefore south of the tunnel VA 168 was the main road (hence why US 60 exits itself at a directional interchange in Willoughby Spit) and took the main bridge traffic. to Norfolk and beyond as VA 168 did (and still does go) to NC and the Outer Banks.

Yes...US 60 followed the Colonial Era routing and VA 168 was built as new construction in the late 1930s as a multilane direct highway.  It is a little surprising US 60 wasn't moved to it when the VA 168Y connector was built around 1942.

I am glad they used part of old 168 to build I-64 in the early 80's.  Its a shame they got rid of VA 168Y but the intersection now where US 60 and VA 30 swap alignments works as making a business route for I-64 though undesignated.    Part of old 168 is still around in the NE corner of that particular intersection as seen in satellite views.   

Yes US 60 should have been moved over to VA 168 later on being Jefferson Avenue was built to better standards than Warwick Boulevard and that US 60 was the original main highway before 1942.

[Mapmikey]

Virginia's Draft FY 2020 six year plan (SYIP) is out...

...rehab and widen I-195 over CSX RR (construction FY 25)

...widen VA 171 btw US 17 and VA 134 (construction FY 25)

That VA 171 widening is long overdue.

As for I-195 over the railroad tracks, it definitely needs to be rehabilitated, but widening?? I say this because maybe it would work only NB, but heeeelllllll no SB. Not sure what VDOT is thinking with this.

I misread the I-195 entry.  It is w/o adding capacity.  It says it is MM 2.16 to 2.76 so I assume it is the bridge over the pile of RR tracks near I-64 (posted mile markers combine VA 195 and I-195 and the bridge I think it is is about 2.7 miles from McCloy Rd overpass where I-195 starts).

The bridge Scott showed is already under rehab construction per this SYIP (also w/o adding capacity).

[Beltway]

I misread the I-195 entry.  It is w/o adding capacity.  It says it is MM 2.16 to 2.76 so I assume it is the bridge over the pile of RR tracks near I-64 (posted mile markers combine VA 195 and I-195 and the bridge I think it is is about 2.7 miles from McCloy Rd overpass where I-195 starts).
The bridge Scott showed is already under rehab construction per this SYIP (also w/o adding capacity).

I don't see where either bridge needs more capacity.  The southbound flyover from Beltline to Downtown has 2 lanes and full shoulders.

The bridge MM 2.16 to 2.76 would be the Acca Yards Viaduct, 3 lanes each way and full right and left shoulders. 

[sprjus4]

I don't see where either bridge needs more capacity.  The southbound flyover from Beltline to Downtown has 2 lanes and full shoulders.

The bridge MM 2.16 to 2.76 would be the Acca Yards Viaduct, 3 lanes each way and full right and left shoulders.

w/o means without.

Without any additional capacity.

[Beltway]

I don't see where either bridge needs more capacity.  The southbound flyover from Beltline to Downtown has 2 lanes and full shoulders.
The bridge MM 2.16 to 2.76 would be the Acca Yards Viaduct, 3 lanes each way and full right and left shoulders.

w/o means without.
Without any additional capacity.

"(also w/o adding capacity)" implies that someone suggested adding capacity. 

Otherwise why bother stating that they are not adding capacity.

[Mapmikey]

The SYIP entries quite often state whether capacity is being added. I'm guessing this is because some projects with titles like improving intersections are vague. Some projects are widening but without adding capacity so they want to say so.

[1995hoo]

I don't see where either bridge needs more capacity.  The southbound flyover from Beltline to Downtown has 2 lanes and full shoulders.
The bridge MM 2.16 to 2.76 would be the Acca Yards Viaduct, 3 lanes each way and full right and left shoulders.

w/o means without.
Without any additional capacity.

"(also w/o adding capacity)" implies that someone suggested adding capacity. 

Otherwise why bother stating that they are not adding capacity.

I think Mapmikey was simply saying that he had misread the document.

[sprjus4]

"(also w/o adding capacity)" implies that someone suggested adding capacity. 

Otherwise why bother stating that they are not adding capacity.

Mapmikey mistakenly stated above they are adding capacity, then he said he misread it and thought they were adding capacity but then he realized they are simply doing rehab "w/o adding capacity".

[sprjus4]

Leaving Downtown Norfolk earlier, and happened to notice this.

West I-464?

Apparently it's been there for years. Why has nobody fixed it?

[plain]

Leaving Downtown Norfolk earlier, and happened to notice this.

West I-464?

Apparently it's been there for years. Why has nobody fixed it?

That whole assembly is off. The "TOLL" should be above I-264 West only and below "TO". I-464 obviously should say "SOUTH" but it doesn't need cardinal directions listed here at all as 464 ends at 264 anyway. The way this is set up makes it look like both interstates are tolled.

[sprjus4]

Leaving Downtown Norfolk earlier, and happened to notice this.

West I-464?

Apparently it's been there for years. Why has nobody fixed it?

That whole assembly is off. The "TOLL" should be above I-264 West only and below "TO". I-464 obviously should say "SOUTH" but it doesn't need cardinal directions listed here at all as 464 ends at 264 anyway. The way this is set up makes it look like both interstates are tolled.

A lot of the Downtown signage is off. When they tolled the tunnels, they just put the "Toll" sticker / tab anywhere I-264 West is mentioned, even if it overlapped w/ I-464 signage. They never did a full replacement of the signage.

It never really bothered me, but when I was getting on I-464 South earlier, that caught my attention. Weird, I've been through that interchange a lot, but have never noticed it until today.

I would bet this whole signage is extremely confusing to non-locals. There's at least 2 dozen "To I-464 / I-264" trailblazers all throughout Downtown, and they all point down different streets. They need better trailblazers and overhead signage at the actual major junctions leading to them. I don't see VDOT use overhead signage that much though, so I wouldn't expect much.

But they really need to fix the "West" and put "South". That's just straight up giving wrong directions. I've already reached out to them in regards to this, hopefully it will be swapped out.

[roadman65]

Interesting observation, I noticed that in the past 30 years or so, Virginia is been installing mast arms more than span wires.  I do know that DE, MD, and PA have all opted to go mast arms while the state of Florida is mixed.  Only South Florida, the Panhandle, Alachua County, and Naples are standardizing with mast arms (with horizontal heads) while Hillsborough is going for span wires being the norm while the rest of the state its whatever goes at time of installation making it a mix of both.

So I can attest that it could be either one of those two scenarios and being not from VA nor traveling there in a long time, I can't say if the mast arm verses span wire is a change in signal practice or that right to choose just given to the cities or signal contractors.

So is VDOT making a change or are they just allowing the option and that many places opted for the arms?

[1995hoo]

Historically VDOT preferred span wire but in recent years they've shifted to mast arms. I grew up seeing span wire everywhere.

About eight years ago I had posted a comment here about VDOT's annoying habit of not posting overhead street signs at many intersections. From what I've read, the main reason has historically been their incorrect claim that street signs cannot be hung from span wire (untrue, it's quite common in North Carolina, for example). froggie noted in response that VDOT's standard for hanging lights had been updated to use mast arms instead. Prior discussion here: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3952.msg99677#msg99677

The inconsistency about which I groused in my prior comment is still an issue around here and it's still a crapshoot whether there'll be a sign attached to the mast arm at any given intersection that has them. Still a lot of span wire around. The intersection north of the one seen in my prior post has nine lanes across on its north side (six southbound lanes–two right-only, two straight-only, two left-only–and three northbound lanes), yet it's a span wire intersection and thus has no overhead street name signs.

[roadman65]

Also another issue with signals is the fact that some GSV captions show many Hampton Roads signals now black instead of yellow.  I am guessing that is a city thing and VDOT most likely prefers yellow, but has no enforcement over that.

Texas is another that uses yellow but black is popping up in some cities like Houston and Galveston.  Though historically I remember Norfolk used to always have dark colors especially Downtown.  In fact I remember seeing some Jersey truss arms in some installations as a kid when we traveled there.

[plain]

VDOT has indeed been utilizing mast arms in many districts over the past 30 years now, and the signals are indeed yellow with black backplates (though more and more backplates have the yellow reflective strips on them now, even on older installs).

Also as stated, many independent cities do their own thing. Roanoke in particular has been using black signals for as long as I can remember. Danville, Hampton, Suffolk and Winchester started using them in the last decade or so for new installs. Newport News started with yellow, then dark green, but now back to yellow and sometimes black on newer ones. All Virginia Beach signals are a dark gray-ish color now, I think these look pretty nice. And finally, Norfolk does pretty much whatever the hell they feel like doing 

[sprjus4]

Also another issue with signals is the fact that some GSV captions show many Hampton Roads signals now black instead of yellow.  I am guessing that is a city thing and VDOT most likely prefers yellow, but has no enforcement over that.

Texas is another that uses yellow but black is popping up in some cities like Houston and Galveston.  Though historically I remember Norfolk used to always have dark colors especially Downtown.  In fact I remember seeing some Jersey truss arms in some installations as a kid when we traveled there.

I rarely see yellow signals here. It's mainly black nowadays.

[plain]

Also another issue with signals is the fact that some GSV captions show many Hampton Roads signals now black instead of yellow.  I am guessing that is a city thing and VDOT most likely prefers yellow, but has no enforcement over that.

Texas is another that uses yellow but black is popping up in some cities like Houston and Galveston.  Though historically I remember Norfolk used to always have dark colors especially Downtown.  In fact I remember seeing some Jersey truss arms in some installations as a kid when we traveled there.

I rarely see yellow signals here. It's mainly black nowadays.

Your neighbor to the west-southwest (Chesapeake) forever uses yellow signals, even for new installs.

Also I forgot to mention Portsmouth earlier, which switched to black.




Also, going back a bit to what 1995hoo said about the overhead street blades: if VDOT didn't want to hang them on the wire next to the signals, they could've placed them on the mast or poles the wires are attached to like Newport News often does in those cases.

[sprjus4]

Your neighbor to the west-southwest (Chesapeake) forever uses yellow signals, even for new installs.

Oh, I was thinking of having the black outer layer around the signal. NC doesn't have this, and some areas in VA don't either IIRC.

This is what I mean - https://www.google.com/maps/@36.292646,-76.2455819,3a,37.5y,352.42h,89.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZsIV9WxH_NelXrAvuon7bg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I'm actually in Chesapeake, so I get what you're saying now. My location is just set as Va Beach.