Virginia

[cpzilliacus]

[IMO, if the Hampton Roads plaintiffs win this round before the Virginia Supreme Court, then there will be massive bond defaults, and the Virginia General Assembly may be forced in to a massive motor fuel tax increase to make the bondholders whole (even though I don't think they are legally obligated to do so).  Virginia cannot have its cake and eat it too - nice new highways and bridges, plus low motor fuel tax rates and no tolls.]

WTOP Radio: Lawsuit could turn Va. tolls upside down, cost taxpayers millions

RICHMOND,Va. - How much Virginia drivers pay to commute or pay in taxes could be decided by the Virginia Supreme Court as part of a lawsuit over tolls.

The lawsuit, filed by a group of residents from the Hampton Roads area, challenges the authority of the Commonwealth Transportation Board to set the toll rate on a public-private tunnel project there.

But the court's decision could also apply to similar projects across the state including the 495 Express Lanes, which opened in November on the Capital Beltway, and the Interstate 95 Express Lanes currently under construction from Fairfax County to Stafford County.

The lawsuit comes as another group, which includes the Loudoun County government, challenges toll hikes being proposed by the privately owned Dulles Greenway. That toll increase is now under review by the Virginia State Corporation Commission.

The commission is currently reviewing the highway owner's request to raise the toll to $4.90 each way.

[froggie]

If the plaintiffs lose, the losers, in effect, are drivers of the Downtown and Midtown Tunnels and the Dulles Toll Road.

If the plaintiffs win, the losers are basically all Virginians and those who drive through Virginia.

And the General Assembly will be largely to blame, though they'll deflect blame elsewhere as is customary for politicians.

[Thing 342]

[IMO, if the Hampton Roads plaintiffs win this round before the Virginia Supreme Court, then there will be massive bond defaults, and the Virginia General Assembly may be forced in to a massive motor fuel tax increase to make the bondholders whole (even though I don't think they are legally obligated to do so).  Virginia cannot have its cake and eat it too - nice new highways and bridges, plus low motor fuel tax rates and no tolls.]

WTOP Radio: Lawsuit could turn Va. tolls upside down, cost taxpayers millions

RICHMOND,Va. - How much Virginia drivers pay to commute or pay in taxes could be decided by the Virginia Supreme Court as part of a lawsuit over tolls.

The lawsuit, filed by a group of residents from the Hampton Roads area, challenges the authority of the Commonwealth Transportation Board to set the toll rate on a public-private tunnel project there.

But the court's decision could also apply to similar projects across the state including the 495 Express Lanes, which opened in November on the Capital Beltway, and the Interstate 95 Express Lanes currently under construction from Fairfax County to Stafford County.

The lawsuit comes as another group, which includes the Loudoun County government, challenges toll hikes being proposed by the privately owned Dulles Greenway. That toll increase is now under review by the Virginia State Corporation Commission.

The commission is currently reviewing the highway owner's request to raise the toll to $4.90 each way.

What a stupid lawsuit. Everybody wants something, but nobody wants to pay for it.

[cpzilliacus]

If the plaintiffs lose, the losers, in effect, are drivers of the Downtown and Midtown Tunnels and the Dulles Toll Road.

Not sure that the outcome of the lawsute applies to the Dulles Toll Road, since VDOT transferred it to another public agency to finance the Dulles Rail project.  The complaint against the private Dulles Greenway is a separate matter from the  Hampton Roads lawsuit.

If the plaintiffs win, the losers are basically all Virginians and those who drive through Virginia.

The result of that may  be a statewide motor fuel tax increase.

And the General Assembly will be largely to blame, though they'll deflect blame elsewhere as is customary for politicians.

I am not especially a fan of the Virginia General Assembly, with its many gerrymandered districts and uncontested elections, but the real blame still lies with the voters (including the people that don't bother to vote in Virginia's odd-year elections).

[cpzilliacus]

What a stupid lawsuit. Everybody wants something, but nobody wants to pay for it.

Agreed.  Or it is about getting Someone Else to pay for it. 

A lot of people in Virginia (especially far from Hampton Roads and Northern Virginia) are very much opposed to paying for badly-needed transportation improvements in those parts of the Commonwealth. 

Never mind that the money that funds the General Fund comes disproportionately from those parts of the state.

[1995hoo]

First APL sign I'm aware of in Northern Virgina was on westbound Duke St (VA 236) approaching Telegraph Rd (VA 241).  This one was put in even before I moved out of Huntington last year.

Glad they did something about those overheads on 395.  Another place they could stand to improve the overheads is EB DTR to the Beltway...though I have not been there since they wrapped up the HO/T lane construction.

Went through Springfield in the local lanes on I-395 southbound this afternoon and I saw they are replacing the other BGSs as well, though not all are done yet. They line up much better with the lanes. I'll post video captures sometime tomorrow after I download videos (no desire to turn on the PC on a Sunday afternoon, especially as it is in the warmest room in the house). I think the signs are an improvement, but Ms1995hoo thought they will confuse the heck out of a lot of drivers (and indeed, right after she said that, a woman ahead of us slowed to about 10 mph trying to decide where to go). But then, the old signs weren't exactly the easiest to follow if you didn't know the area. My father, who has lived in this area as long as I have (39 years), says he thinks there's simply too large an amount of signage through there for the average driver to process.

[jeffandnicole]

Pictures are dashcam video captures, hence the graininess. I do note, based on this limited view, that it looks as though they may have put too much space between the exit numbers and the letter suffix, just like they did on the signs back at the VA-236 exit. Rather odd, that, since I think whoever fabricated the signs for the rebuilt portion of the Beltway did a very good job.

Personally, I like the extra space.  A 'B' and an '8' can look fairly alike on the signs.  As an example, Exit 4B could be confused with Exit 48.  Exit 4 B is much more clearly Exit 4 B.

Will this come into play much?  Generally, no.  But on occasion, such as a sign far in advance of an exit (or even a billboard, for that matter) where the motorist gets a split-second look at the sign, the space can help distinguish the B within the exit number.

[froggie]

Not sure that the outcome of the lawsute applies to the Dulles Toll Road, since VDOT transferred it to another public agency to finance the Dulles Rail project.  The complaint against the private Dulles Greenway is a separate matter from the  Hampton Roads lawsuit.

Not directly, but there will be ancillary effects to whatever the verdict is.  And you can bet your COG that the DTR and Greenway (not to mention the HO/T lane people) are watching the Hampton Roads lawsuit closely.

The result of that may  be a statewide motor fuel tax increase.

That's what I was alluding to, yes...nevermind that such a tax increase wouldn't be going to finance new projects or better maintenance, but to fix the stupidity of the General Assembly.

I am not especially a fan of the Virginia General Assembly, with its many gerrymandered districts and uncontested elections, but the real blame still lies with the voters (including the people that don't bother to vote in Virginia's odd-year elections).

You prove my point.

[mtfallsmikey]

Please don't blame me, I have not missed a Fed/State/local election since 1972.... And Md. has their own funk going on.

[1995hoo]

Pictures are dashcam video captures, hence the graininess. I do note, based on this limited view, that it looks as though they may have put too much space between the exit numbers and the letter suffix, just like they did on the signs back at the VA-236 exit. Rather odd, that, since I think whoever fabricated the signs for the rebuilt portion of the Beltway did a very good job.

Personally, I like the extra space.  A 'B' and an '8' can look fairly alike on the signs.  As an example, Exit 4B could be confused with Exit 48.  Exit 4 B is much more clearly Exit 4 B.

Will this come into play much?  Generally, no.  But on occasion, such as a sign far in advance of an exit (or even a billboard, for that matter) where the motorist gets a split-second look at the sign, the space can help distinguish the B within the exit number.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The issue isn't using a space per se. It's the amount of space. This came up in a prior thread, but it's been a long time and I don't recall what thread it was. The issue was that the current MUTCD specifies a smaller space between the exit number and the letter; I believe the space is supposed to be a quarter to half the width of the letter. VDOT instead used a full space between the number and the letter and it makes it look weird.

What's odder about it is that the new signs on I-395, including some that were there two or three years ago, use the too-large space but the new signs on I-495 through the area where HO/T lanes opened last year all use a smaller space. Maybe the private contractor who built the HO/T lanes had more say over those signs. I would not be surprised at all, though, if this is an issue of a VDOT employee who doesn't understand the difference between a "small space" and a full space. I doubt that's uncommon at all. After all, there are an awful lot of people who don't understand the difference between a hyphen, an en dash, and an em dash, or between an opening single quotation mark and an apostrophe. I see lots of embarrassing t-shirts and the like that have an opening single quotation mark when the designer should have used an apostrophe. I suspect part of the issue is that MS Word's autocorrect feature assumes you want an opening single quotation mark when you type that character after a space, and people just assume the autocorrect is accurate (which is odd, given that so many people know how smartphones' autocorrect features are often wrong).

I'll try to upload some more pictures of southbound I-395 through Springfield later today, but meanwhile, compare the following signs' exit numbering. Notice the much narrower spaces in the third set of signs, which are on the Beltway (the roadwork is done, but the signs remain the same).











Edited to add: Here are some more pictures from I-395 yesterday. The latter two show the new APL signs in Springfield more clearly than the one I uploaded the other day because this time I was out in the general-purpose lanes. A few signs still remain to be replaced, most notably the one further back towards Edsall Road that has about a quarter of the sign panel mysteriously missing (been that way for at least a year now).

It's odd to me that the arrows are jammed up so close to the edge on two of the signs but not on the one for the Beltway exit (Exits 1C and -D).

The first set of signs shown is from a few miles to the north just to give another close-up of the space between the numbers and the letter.










Looking at that second picture of this set of three, I can see why Ms1995hoo thought it was a lot of arrows for someone unfamiliar with the area to decipher. In particular, I could see why someone who hasn't seen this style sign in the past might find it confusing that the route to Baltimore is shown as straight ahead whilst the exit for Route 644 is shown as exiting to the right.

I'll have another upload of some new signs on Loisdale Road in Springfield once I figure out which video that is.



Edited again: New Loisdale Road signs below. Discovered these earlier yesterday afternoon. Somewhere I know I have video of the old signs, but it would take too long to find it, so I've taken a screenshot of Google Street View instead. Old signs shown first. The change there is that you used to have three left-turn-only lanes, one straight-thru lane onto Commerce Street, and one right-turn-only lane onto eastbound Franconia Road (Route 644). Sometime within the past year they changed it so the rightmost of the three left-turn-only lanes (marked for I-95 South in the photo of the old signs) would be an option lane, left or straight; notice the arrows on the pavement in the old photo (which it says is from November 2012). Very few drivers ever go straight out of that lane. No doubt the very long solid line separating that lane from the "straight-only" lane to the right might be part of the issue there. The pavement was not re-striped, aside from new arrows being painted, when the lane was re-designated.

That arrow for the option lane on the new sign is a style I have not seen before.

The guy in the SUV who looks like he's making a last-minute lane change wasn't in the wrong, though; he had just come out of the driveway to the right, which serves a Bank of America.

[cpzilliacus]

Please don't blame me, I have not missed a Fed/State/local election since 1972.... And Md. has their own funk going on.

I have never missed one either.

As for Maryland, I am not at all happy with the orgy of light rail construction that the O'Malley Administration is promoting - mostly financed by highway users, who are unlikely to derive any benefit from either project.

[cpzilliacus]

Not sure that the outcome of the lawsute applies to the Dulles Toll Road, since VDOT transferred it to another public agency to finance the Dulles Rail project.  The complaint against the private Dulles Greenway is a separate matter from the  Hampton Roads lawsuit.

Not directly, but there will be ancillary effects to whatever the verdict is.  And you can bet your COG that the DTR and Greenway (not to mention the HO/T lane people) are watching the Hampton Roads lawsuit closely.

Agreed.

The result of that may  be a statewide motor fuel tax increase.

That's what I was alluding to, yes...nevermind that such a tax increase wouldn't be going to finance new projects or better maintenance, but to fix the stupidity of the General Assembly.

There's also the misplaced faith in the PPTA being some sort of a substitute for old-fashioned motor fuel taxes.  It's not and it never will be.  And if there are a series of bond defaults by private-sector bond issuers for Virginia transportation projects (effectively, there has already been a huge write-off for Va. 895), that will effectively repeal the PPTA, even if a majority of the General Assembly keeps believing in it.

I am not especially a fan of the Virginia General Assembly, with its many gerrymandered districts and uncontested elections, but the real blame still lies with the voters (including the people that don't bother to vote in Virginia's odd-year elections).

You prove my point.

Voters get the kind of government they deserve.  But they cannot repeal the laws of physics, and they cannot prevent the highway network from deteriorating from the lack of maintenance.

Maybe when VDOT starts to post bridges with new and lower weight limits for trucks (like PennDOT is now doing) that anger some businesses and voters, perhaps causing some to start singing a different tune?

[1995hoo]

The Washington Post's Dr. Gridlock reports that the southern end of the I-95 HOV lanes in Dumfries is getting comparative travel-time signs as follows:



Based on the rest of the blog entry, it sounds as though we should NOT expect to see similar signs on the Beltway any time soon.

[hbelkins]

Hmmm ... noticed two abbreviations for "Turnpike" in those photos.

"Trpk," which I've never seen before, and "Tnpk," which is more standard.

[1995hoo]

That one sign is the only one I've ever seen with "Trpk." All the other BGSs around here use "Tnpk." Street signs are a mixed bag. Most of the street signs use "Tpke," but there are a few in Annandale that use "Trnpk" (which makes me wonder why bother abbreviating at all).

There's no question that someone at the sign shop is sloppy. There's a small green sign on the Beltway's Outer Loop exit ramp to westbound Braddock Road (Route 620; Exit 54A) that refers to "Queensberry Rd." The street is named "Queensberry Avenue." I've reported it three times but they evidently don't care, as it hasn't been fixed (whereas when I reported misplaced exit tabs that were on the left for right-side exits, they fixed those within a week).

[roadman65]

That one sign is the only one I've ever seen with "Trpk." All the other BGSs around here use "Tnpk." Street signs are a mixed bag. Most of the street signs use "Tpke," but there are a few in Annandale that use "Trnpk" (which makes me wonder why bother abbreviating at all).

There's no question that someone at the sign shop is sloppy. There's a small green sign on the Beltway's Outer Loop exit ramp to westbound Braddock Road (Route 620; Exit 54A) that refers to "Queensberry Rd." The street is named "Queensberry Avenue." I've reported it three times but they evidently don't care, as it hasn't been fixed (whereas when I reported misplaced exit tabs that were on the left for right-side exits, they fixed those within a week).

Exit tabs are a federal guideline, street names are not!  I am guessing that VDOT fears the feds, but not local authorities.

Welcome to the club, here in Orlando we have a Hoffner Avenue that is signed Hoffner Road from FL 436 and a Kaley Street that is signed on I-4 as Kaley Avenue.  However with the latter, it may be cause west of I-4 (yes I-4 runs N-S in Orlando) it is Kaley Avenue because it is not part of the City of Orlando proper, but unicorporated Orange County.  Orlando itself, likes Avenues running North and South while streets running East and West.

[Alps]

That one sign is the only one I've ever seen with "Trpk." All the other BGSs around here use "Tnpk." Street signs are a mixed bag. Most of the street signs use "Tpke," but there are a few in Annandale that use "Trnpk" (which makes me wonder why bother abbreviating at all).

There's no question that someone at the sign shop is sloppy. There's a small green sign on the Beltway's Outer Loop exit ramp to westbound Braddock Road (Route 620; Exit 54A) that refers to "Queensberry Rd." The street is named "Queensberry Avenue." I've reported it three times but they evidently don't care, as it hasn't been fixed (whereas when I reported misplaced exit tabs that were on the left for right-side exits, they fixed those within a week).

Tpk. is supposed to be the standard, I believe, per MUTCD. It's possible Tnpk. is an alternative. Tpke. is deprecated, and anything else is silly.

[NE2]

Tpk. is supposed to be the standard, I believe, per MUTCD. It's possible Tnpk. is an alternative. Tpke. is deprecated, and anything else is silly.

Tp. might work (for my bunghole heheheheheh) for an agency that always uses two-letter abbreviations (I've seen Py. for Parkway around here, but not consistently).

[Thing 342]

The Washington Post's Dr. Gridlock reports that the southern end of the I-95 HOV lanes in Dumfries is getting comparative travel-time signs as follows:



Based on the rest of the blog entry, it sounds as though we should NOT expect to see similar signs on the Beltway any time soon.

The Hampton Roads area has several of these kind of signs. They're hardly ever accurate, though.

[Mapmikey]

They uncovered one which is located where the VA 234 ramp meets I-95 NB.

Both days (5:10 a.m.) it has put the Pentagon at 24 min via HOV and 29 min via mainline, which is largely the difference between 65 mph in HOV vs. lower limits in mainline.

Mapmikey

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post: Loudoun County roads leave commuters zig-zagging to get around missing links

There it is on area maps, a north-south artery near Dulles Airport. And there are big signs for the Loudoun County Parkway from the major highways it was designed to connect. But drivers who take the parkway exit heading south off the toll road find themselves, three miles later, staring at a huge orange-and-white fence, and a stretch of woods beyond.

There's no sign. No detour arrow. The road just stops.

The county, one of the fastest-growing in the country, is changing so quickly that its roads haven't caught up with all the new buildings and people, yet. There are more than 100 places in Loudoun, county leaders say, where there are missing links – a road starts, it jogs along nicely, then at some point, it stops dead.

In recent years, as developers have bought up land and transformed farmland to suburbs, county leaders often required the businesses to pay for some of the infrastructure that would be needed when the new homes were filled with families, offices with workers and stores with shoppers. The system developed as a way to try to keep up with road needs even when the commonwealth – which is responsible for building and maintaining most roads in Virginia – couldn't keep pace with the growth.

[mrsman]

I can see why Ms1995hoo thought it was a lot of arrows for someone unfamiliar with the area to decipher. In particular, I could see why someone who hasn't seen this style sign in the past might find it confusing that the route to Baltimore is shown as straight ahead whilst the exit for Route 644 is shown as exiting to the right.

This is the problem I have with APL signs.  Arguably, the only direction that corresponds to straight is Richmond.  Yet there has to  be some way to designate with arrows the 3 different directions that are right (Franconia, Baltimore, Tysons).

[In California, the radio reporters refer to the lanes of the highway by number, #1 being the left most lane and #2 the next lane to the right, etc.]

It seems that here, you have #1 Richmond, #2 Richmond or Franconia, #3 Franconia, #4 Baltimore, #5 & #6 Tysons.  At the point where the APL signs are located, it is just beyond where the gore is, so in effect it is where two roadways split from the mainline.  The left three lanes to Richmond and Franconia, the right three lanes to Baltimore and Tysons.  With respect to each individual roadway the straight and right arrows make sense.

Going a little bit north of this point, the roadway is 5 lanes.  Based on StreetsView, #1 & #2 for Richmond and Springfield; #4 & #5 for Baltimore and Tysons, #3 for all locations.  In other words, the big signs separate Richmond/Springfield from Baltimore/Tysons, but don't give any more advance lane designation.  How to resolve this, I don't know.

[WillWeaverRVA]

Unrelated, but a couple of Richmond notes:

- The last original overhead sign for VA 195 (at the 12th Street entrance to VA 195 westbound) has been removed.

- US 60 has been slightly realigned in downtown Richmond; westbound US 60 used to turn onto 8th Street from Main Street, then follow the 8th Street Connector onto the Manchester Bridge. However, the 8th Street Connector and the parking lots adjacent to it have been destroyed to make way for a high-rise hotel, so US 60 now runs on 8th Street to Canal Street; the small segment of Canal Street between 8th and 9th has been converted to a two-way street, and US 60 traffic uses this to make the connection to 9th Street (both lanes are forced to turn right, it is not possible to turn left onto 9th Street from Canal Street).

[roadman]

Pictures are dashcam video captures, hence the graininess. I do note, based on this limited view, that it looks as though they may have put too much space between the exit numbers and the letter suffix, just like they did on the signs back at the VA-236 exit. Rather odd, that, since I think whoever fabricated the signs for the rebuilt portion of the Beltway did a very good job.

Personally, I like the extra space.  A 'B' and an '8' can look fairly alike on the signs.  As an example, Exit 4B could be confused with Exit 48.  Exit 4 B is much more clearly Exit 4 B.

Will this come into play much?  Generally, no.  But on occasion, such as a sign far in advance of an exit (or even a billboard, for that matter) where the motorist gets a split-second look at the sign, the space can help distinguish the B within the exit number.

Extra space between numbers and letters on exit tabs is now a MUTCD requirement.

[cpzilliacus]

William posted this to the DCROADS.NET group on Facebook, and some that are not members there might find it interesting.

WashingtonPost.com (from 1982):  A long road bitter fight against I-66 now history