Virginia

[1995hoo]

I've wonder why VDOT has some sort of aversion to posting SR-789 on BGS's for Commerce St and Loisdale Rd.   

I don't really see how there'd be much benefit to doing it. I'd wager next to nobody knows the route number and even fewer people refer to it by number. (I've lived a short distance east of there since 2001 and didn't know the route number until I read your post.) Yes, I know that hasn't stopped the posting of route numbers for some other roads where nobody knows/uses the number (a nearby example is Frontier Drive BGSs on the Franconia—Springfield Parkway).

[mtantillo]

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Drove through Springfield in the HOV last night on the way home from Ford's Theatre and noted that VDOT is replacing the northernmost set of overheads for the Beltway interchange, the one for which one of the signs was missing about a third of the sign for the past few years. What's interesting is that this one is a single-panel BGS, a very large sign, instead of the multiple panels shown above. It uses the new APL format, though, with a splitting arrow for the option lane. I haven't downloaded videos yet, so I don't know whether I have any pictures of it, but my initial reaction was that it's a much more effective sign than the other ones shown above because it eliminates the issue of apparently-conflicting arrows. I didn't get the closest look at it because of the HOV construction combined with other traffic, and only the bottom half of the new sign was in place last night.

Ms1995hoo thinks I pay too much attention to road signs, but even she noticed the new APL format and remarked on it (her comment? "That new sign has strange-looking arrows.").

Don't know whether I'll get a picture tonight. We usually use I-295 to come home from Caps games, but whether we do that tonight depends on the weather. (The HOV is not normally open late enough for us to use it after games.)

Speaking of APL signs in Virginia, by the way, I noted one day last week (I don't know which, as my dashcam date stamp was messed up) that VDOT is apparently going to replace at least some of the overhead LGSs on eastbound Franconia Road in Springfield with new-style APL signs. When I exited I-95 onto eastbound Franconia there was a work crew assembling an APL sign on which I managed to notice the word "Mall." The current LGSs are kind of ugly because they say "TO Mall" and the word "TO" was added after the fact and doesn't line up correctly with the rest of the text.

This was done due to many, many complaints from drivers about the signing at Springfield.  The "four down arrows for three lanes" setup was marginally effective at best in many cases, and downright confusing as heck where you have three diverges like on southbound I-395.  The arrow per lane is a big step in the right direction.  The arrows are a little shorter than I would have expected though. 

[mtantillo]

I find it hard to give a lot of credibility to the rosy projections for the I-95 HOT lanes as a means of relieving congestion on that road. I think Mike Tantillo gave a pretty good analysis of those lanes in a post he made here last year: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7481.0  It'll be interesting to see how it all works out, but I think a lot of his comments were very insightful.

One thing that is quite clear from the (generally quite inexpensive) Beltway Express Lanes is that some drivers are simply stubborn and will just refuse to pay a toll, period, no matter how minimal the toll is and no matter how bad the traffic is. Last Saturday evening Ms1995hoo and I were headed out to Great Falls to meet my parents at L'Auberge Chez Francois (my dad's birthday was last week and we were taking them out to dinner). I presumed I would take the Express Lanes to avoid Tysons Corner traffic, and the radio confirmed a backup in the general-purpose lanes heading north towards the American Legion Bridge. The VMS units indicated the toll from Tysons north to the lanes' northern end was 90¢. Yet Tysons drivers continued to pour into the local lanes, leaving the Express Lanes wide open. I loved it, of course. I did change plans so as to take the Dulles Toll Road west to Hunter Mill instead of staying on the Beltway to Georgetown Pike, but either way, it's a nice experience going 70 mph while the traffic next to you is at a standstill.

See video below (click thumbnail to play). Anyway, experiences like this one confirm to me that the I-95 Express Lanes—which will likely have higher tolls and which will have a more complex "segment-based" tolling system—will face the same resistance from drivers who simply refuse to pay a toll and who are willing to sit in the local lanes. The big difference on I-95 is that they're converting existing lanes, so people will be able to say (with some justification) the project made it worse (if that turns out to be the case). On the Beltway, since the project consisted of building four entirely new lanes, there's no basis for saying the new lanes made anything worse.

(To be fair to the drivers in the general-purpose lanes in this video, I suppose if you were headed to Maryland via the Beltway you'd wind up in traffic anyway even if you used the Express Lanes. In that situation you're just paying the toll to jump part of the queue.)

I am nothing short of STUNNED at how cheap drivers are when it comes to paying tolls, as in, flipping out over a dollar toll.  I can understand frustration over the Dulles Toll Road, where the rates are somewhat excessive.  But people don't want to pay 50 cents to drive from Route 7 to I-66 on the Express Lanes? People flipping over the 50 cent a month E-ZPass fee in Virginia?  In DC area where many people are fairly wealthy? I really don't get it! 

I honestly expect the I-95 Express Lane tolls to by sky high, because all of the carpoolers will price everyone else out.  But outside of rush hours, I bet the lanes will have plenty of room to accomodate anyone willing to pay.  Hopefully with more entrances and exits traffic will be more evenly distributed within the lanes, as opposed to what you have now where the lanes are jammed in the north end sometimes, and empty down south. 

[1995hoo]

Oh, I definitely agree that the latest of the new signs on I-395 (the one seen as an incomplete sign in my photo) is a massive improvement. Among other reasons, the arrows actually line up with the lanes now! The old signs were too small and suffered from feeling crammed-together. I haven't been on I-395 since last Tuesday night and so don't know whether they've finished that sign. Our next game is Saturday, so I might see it then.

I think the single large sign is a more effective design than the other ones seen in my September 8 video capture just because I can see why people may find the arrows on the latter signs to be confusing. But you know, ultimately there's never going to be a 100% perfect solution there. It's simply so complex a junction with so many movements in a small area that people unfamiliar with it will almost always suffer from some degree of signage overload. The new signs are a big improvement, either way.

[Mapmikey]

Speaking of obscure numbered SR shields on BGSs in Virginia, I ran across this on Dec 7.  This is I-81 just north of the I-77 SB split.  This used to just be a BGS that said "Service Rd."  I believe this is the first instance of an F-route on a BGS.  F044 is old US 11.


Mapmikey

[Alps]

Speaking of obscure numbered SR shields on BGSs in Virginia, I ran across this on Dec 7.  This is I-81 just north of the I-77 SB split.  This used to just be a BGS that said "Service Rd."  I believe this is the first instance of an F-route on a BGS.  F044 is old US 11.


Mapmikey

If I were a coffee drinker, it would be all over my screen right now.

[cpzilliacus]

This used to just be a BGS that said "Service Rd."

Route  F-269 (Live Oak Drive) is posted on an overpass over I-495 between Va. 193 and the George Washington Memorial Parkway (just south of the American Legion Bridge) in Fairfax County (here and here). 

Not the same as your context, but that is the only one I have ever seen signed on an Interstate in any context.

[froggie]

There's a few F-routes posted on overpass/underpass signs on I-64.  One in mind is just east of Afton Mountain.

[Mapmikey]

It just occurred to me to check on whether VDOT did the same with the "Service Rd" interchange near Ft Chiswell, Exit 77.

They indeed have signed F042 and F043 on the BGS there now (the road across the overpass is technically F326)
http://goo.gl/maps/uqdM5

I know there are F-routes that are not posted for overpasses where they could - I-81 Exit 10 (signed as US 11-19) is actually F310; Lovers Lane near Wytheville which is F04x (not posted anywhere and traffic log is contradictory); Lithia Rd in Wytheville is F324; Exit 1 on I-64 is F198 (posted only as Jerry's Run last time I was there); I-77 over F001 is not signed

Mapmikey

[1995hoo]

....

I've wonder why VDOT has some sort of aversion to posting SR-789 on BGS's for Commerce St and Loisdale Rd.   

I was thinking about this comment further and I wonder if in this particular situation it might be due in part to the way the street names are arranged on the sign. You can reach Frontier Drive, which is past the Commerce/Loisdale intersection, from either lane, although ultimately you'll have to move to the right after you pass the first light because Frontier is a right turn. But you have to be in the left lane to access Commerce and you have to be in the right lane to access Loisdale. So in theory, using this particular arrangement of names, you'd presumably need the 789 marker twice with a 2677 marker in between them (for Frontier), or if you wanted to put those markers directly next to the street names they'd have to be pretty small. I wonder if that sort of number duplication or small marker size might just confuse people unnecessarily in a situation where nobody uses the number anyway.

[cpzilliacus]

There's a few F-routes posted on overpass/underpass signs on I-64.  One in mind is just east of Afton Mountain.

Adam, thanks. 

I have not driven that part of I-64 since 1975 (!).

[cpzilliacus]

It just occurred to me to check on whether VDOT did the same with the "Service Rd" interchange near Ft Chiswell, Exit 77.

They indeed have signed F042 and F043 on the BGS there now (the road across the overpass is technically F326)
http://goo.gl/maps/uqdM5

I know there are F-routes that are not posted for overpasses where they could - I-81 Exit 10 (signed as US 11-19) is actually F310; Lovers Lane near Wytheville which is F04x (not posted anywhere and traffic log is contradictory); Lithia Rd in Wytheville is F324; Exit 1 on I-64 is F198 (posted only as Jerry's Run last time I was there); I-77 over F001 is not signed

Wonder why VDOT has decided to "showcase" the F routes?

Used to be the only places to see them was on the small rectangular route markers.

[Mapmikey]

There's a few F-routes posted on overpass/underpass signs on I-64.  One in mind is just east of Afton Mountain.

Adam, thanks. 

I have not driven that part of I-64 since 1975 (!).

Here's a picture I took from 2006 of the F182 overpass, labeled...



There have definitely been F routes in regular SR circle shields for at least 23 years.  A rare style of F-route posting is this one I found in Wise County in 2008.  F routes came into being when this style of SR marker was already fading from view...



Mapmikey

[cpzilliacus]

There have definitely been F routes in regular SR circle shields for at least 23 years.  A rare style of F-route posting is this one I found in Wise County in 2008.

Aside from your image of the F circle from I-81, I don't think I have ever noticed one before (most of my driving in Virginia is in the Northern Virginia and Fredericksburg Districts, and along I-95 to the North Carolina border).

F routes came into being when this style of SR marker was already fading from view...

Do you mean the extremely rusty plate under the ROAD ENDS sign (itself something of a VDOT classic), or did you mean the F-817 plate with the very classy and classic arrow?

[agentsteel53]

the extremely rusty plate under the ROAD ENDS sign

wow, where did you find that?  does Michael Summa know about this one?

[Mapmikey]

There have definitely been F routes in regular SR circle shields for at least 23 years.  A rare style of F-route posting is this one I found in Wise County in 2008.

Aside from your image of the F circle from I-81, I don't think I have ever noticed one before (most of my driving in Virginia is in the Northern Virginia and Fredericksburg Districts, and along I-95 to the North Carolina border).

F routes came into being when this style of SR marker was already fading from view...

Do you mean the extremely rusty plate under the ROAD ENDS sign (itself something of a VDOT classic), or did you mean the F-817 plate with the very classy and classic arrow?

It occurs to me I might not have been clear enough.  I was referring to F-routes in an SR circle on stand alone trailblazers and reassurance shields.

The rusty SR rectangle was what I was referring to.  This size of rectangle went out of fashion on a statewide basis decades ago.  Although District 8 (Staunton north through Shenandoah Valley) has new ones but they are reflective and probably wouldn't rust like the originals.

Mapmikey

[Mapmikey]

the extremely rusty plate under the ROAD ENDS sign

wow, where did you find that?  does Michael Summa know about this one?

If he follows Virginia Highways Project photo galleries he does...

The rusty F817 sign is still present as of Aug 2012 GMSV, difficult to see but definitely still there - http://goo.gl/maps/eVVyH

Others I have found:

Off VA 94 near Ivanhoe:


SR 738 (old VA 51):


This one I know is gone from Coeburn:


The first one I ever found was at the end of Old VA 124 outside West Point:


SR 606 near Fries:


Here is what they look like when not rusted.  This is the original VA 16 crossing into NC:


They even were made of wood sometimes.  I found this one in Appalachia:

[cpzilliacus]

Others I have found:

Thank you for sharing these. I am old enough to remember when signs like that were pretty common around Fairfax County (especially around Lake Barcroft, where I had an aunt and uncle) in in the 1960's.

[hbelkins]

I've seen both F-series and T-series routes signed in the circular secondary marker style, but only on standalone route markers and, to my knowledge, not on an interstate guide sign.

[cpzilliacus]

I've seen both F-series and T-series routes signed in the circular secondary marker style, but only on standalone route markers and, to my knowledge, not on an interstate guide sign.

I've seen T signs in some places (and in circles), but they are pretty rare in Northern Virginia, because most of the towns maintain their own streets, just as the cities do.

The only place where I have recently seen the T signs (including perhaps a circular one or two) is in the Town of Middleburg, Loudoun County while driving through there on U.S. 50. 

Clifton, Fairfax County, is also an incorporated town, and VDOT maintains its streets, yet I don't think there is a T sign to be found there (the streets have route numbers that look just like the "regular" VDOT secondary system route numbers).

[roadman65]

I was just cruising GSV and noticed that in Virginia Beach along US 58's home stretch that 30th Street now branches off of Laskin Road.  Google shows it a thick yellow line while Laskin to Atlantic Avenue is a thin one.  In addition Laskin now is only two lanes east of the 30th cutoff, so am I to assume not only is the City of VA Beach making 30th Street the new through route to US 60 and the Oceanfront, but redesignating that as US 58?

I know that in VA Beach signage for US 58, US 60, and US 58 Business is scarce to none and the Laskin Road/ 30th Street intersection has no US 58 shields up to say which is which, so I was wondering if anyone knows for sure if US 58 still ends with Laskin or is now on 30th EB and 33rd WB with the new development in that area?

Wiki is no help, of course, but then again is the City of VA Beach either?

[froggie]

Last time I was over that way (pre-deployment), it was still under construction.  However, since Virginia has not submitted a routing change to AASHTO, nor has their internal documentation noted any differences, it's safe to say that US 58 still follows Lasking Rd and ends at the Laskin Rd/Pacific Ave intersection.

[roadman65]

I do not even think VA Beach knows or even cares about US 58's existence in VA Beach hence the lack of trailblazers. 

Look at the US 60 END assembly on Rudee Inlet Bridge where it is not US 60 as US 60 crosses over to Atlantic Avenue at VA Beach Boulevard and continues south to the loop at the south end of that particular street.  I do not think AASHTO was notified of US 60 being brought to end on Pacific at Rudee Inlet either.

[Mapmikey]

I wouldn't put any stock in the fact that VDOT has not documented changes in their own universe or requested from AASHTO.

US 11, 17, and 50 have all been rerouted (by signage anyway) in Winchester.

US 17 Bus and VA 2 have also been rerouted by signage in Fredericksburg.

Mapmikey

[froggie]

The key will be to see what VDOT's 2013 Roadway Center Line shapefiles look like, once they're available.