North Carolina

[froggie]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Looking south at the future U.S. 221 Rutherfordton Bypass from Old U.S. 221.



Looking south towards the U.S. 64 interchange.



Looking north at the future U.S. 64 overpass from current U.S. 64.

[jdunlop]

There are indeed specific numbering rules. Bureaucrats have been known to make mistakes in applying specific rules. They did in this case. The number 540 is a mistake. The discussion in the forum is about whether this mistake should be corrected. Reasonable people can disagree about this and airing disagreements honestly is an important function of an online forum.

Does anybody remember whether it was the FHWA or AASHTO that rejected NCDOT's original request to number the Raleigh Northern Arc as I-640?  I've tried searching several times and can no longer find this information in the NCDOT archives (nor any of the Roadgeek listings).  [Indeed, I was skeptical about whether North Carolina could build a qualified "loop" to deserve an "even 3DI", but nobody expected the Triangle to grow to over 2 million almost overnight].

Did some digging:

• Nothing I was able to find in the AASHTO SCOH minutes suggests that they rejected 640.
• Per Brian LeBlanc's former I-540 webpage, NCDOT decided in 2002 that they would retain the 540 number instead of requesting it be changes to 640 upon completion.
• NCDOT further clarified this in their 2013 request for I-495.  I was able to find that letter (3rd page of the PDF) in the NCDOT Route Changes dataset.  Their letter to FHWA requested that 540 remain as such "due to public expectation, historic controversy, and economic burden of sign replacement.".  They further cite precedents in I-376 PA, I-390 NY, and I-590 NY.

My vague memory was that it was FHWA who rejected the I-640 designation when it was first requested (sometime in the early '90s IIRC.)  The comment then was that the even numbered designation would "confuse" drivers because the even number implied that it was a loop, and that it would take decades for the road to connect back to I-40.  (I believe this might have been before the Beltline was designated as I-440, but things blend together after so many years.  Could somebody with the researching chops remind me when that happened?)

So, ironically, the I-640 designation was rejected because it might confuse drivers, and now the I-540 designation is kept (to many erroneously) to supposedly prevent (local) driver confusion.  If this was the Army, it would definitely be a SNAFU.

[LM117]

Traffic shift tonight on I-440 at Wade Avenue.

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2023/2023-05-31-i-440-wade-traffic-shift-closure.aspx

[wdcrft63]

My vague memory was that it was FHWA who rejected the I-640 designation when it was first requested (sometime in the early '90s IIRC.)  The comment then was that the even numbered designation would "confuse" drivers because the even number implied that it was a loop, and that it would take decades for the road to connect back to I-40.  (I believe this might have been before the Beltline was designated as I-440, but things blend together after so many years.  Could somebody with the researching chops remind me when that happened?)

So, ironically, the I-640 designation was rejected because it might confuse drivers, and now the I-540 designation is kept (to many erroneously) to supposedly prevent (local) driver confusion.  If this was the Army, it would definitely be a SNAFU.

The Beltline was designated 440 in 1991. I believe you're correct that the 640/540 decision was in that year or very soon thereafter.

[architect77]

My vague memory was that it was FHWA who rejected the I-640 designation when it was first requested (sometime in the early '90s IIRC.)  The comment then was that the even numbered designation would "confuse" drivers because the even number implied that it was a loop, and that it would take decades for the road to connect back to I-40.  (I believe this might have been before the Beltline was designated as I-440, but things blend together after so many years.  Could somebody with the researching chops remind me when that happened?)

So, ironically, the I-640 designation was rejected because it might confuse drivers, and now the I-540 designation is kept (to many erroneously) to supposedly prevent (local) driver confusion.  If this was the Army, it would definitely be a SNAFU.

The Beltline was designated 440 in 1991. I believe you're correct that the 640/540 decision was in that year or very soon thereafter.

is there any complete interstate loop anywhere in the US that begins with an odd number?

[wdcrft63]

My vague memory was that it was FHWA who rejected the I-640 designation when it was first requested (sometime in the early '90s IIRC.)  The comment then was that the even numbered designation would "confuse" drivers because the even number implied that it was a loop, and that it would take decades for the road to connect back to I-40.  (I believe this might have been before the Beltline was designated as I-440, but things blend together after so many years.  Could somebody with the researching chops remind me when that happened?)

So, ironically, the I-640 designation was rejected because it might confuse drivers, and now the I-540 designation is kept (to many erroneously) to supposedly prevent (local) driver confusion.  If this was the Army, it would definitely be a SNAFU.

The Beltline was designated 440 in 1991. I believe you're correct that the 640/540 decision was in that year or very soon thereafter.

is there any complete interstate loop anywhere in the US that begins with an odd number?

No, and I-540/NC 540 won't be a complete loop for the next ten years, more or less. And even then it won't be a complete interstate loop because more than half of it will be a toll road that can't have interstate signage.

[hurricanehink]

My vague memory was that it was FHWA who rejected the I-640 designation when it was first requested (sometime in the early '90s IIRC.)  The comment then was that the even numbered designation would "confuse" drivers because the even number implied that it was a loop, and that it would take decades for the road to connect back to I-40.  (I believe this might have been before the Beltline was designated as I-440, but things blend together after so many years.  Could somebody with the researching chops remind me when that happened?)

So, ironically, the I-640 designation was rejected because it might confuse drivers, and now the I-540 designation is kept (to many erroneously) to supposedly prevent (local) driver confusion.  If this was the Army, it would definitely be a SNAFU.

The Beltline was designated 440 in 1991. I believe you're correct that the 640/540 decision was in that year or very soon thereafter.

is there any complete interstate loop anywhere in the US that begins with an odd number?

Interstate 520 arguably counts, which forms a beltway around Augusta, Georgia along with I-20.

[sprjus4]

^ I-376 in Pennsylvania, as well.

[fillup420]

Interstate 520 arguably counts, which forms a beltway around Augusta, Georgia along with I-20.

I don't think there's any argument about it. It meets I-20 on both ends, making it a complete loop.

[Dirt Roads]

My wife and I were headed to the Orange County Sportsplex on Wednesday evening (Sep 14) when we encountered an improptu detour on NC-86 where the bridge over I-85 was closed.  I've been swamped this week, but now that I am finally getting back to normal we find that the accident occurred after midnight on Tuesday night.  I-85 [westbound] was still down to one lane at noontime today, and I am not sure whether NCDOT will get both lanes open anytime soon.  Almost all of the paint on the span over the southbound lanes was intensely blackened by the fire.

The NC-86 bridge over I-85 at the Hampton Pointe exit (Hillsborough/Chapel Hill, Exit 165) has finally reopened.  It was still closed as of Friday evening (Sept 23).  "Detour" signs for I-40 (Alternate I-40) have been posted all around the area in advance of the I-40 widening, and it was odd having a real detour on top of it.  Even stranger is that the Alternate I-40 detour on NC-86 northbound is marked for both I-40 westbound (via I-85 southbound) and for I-40 eastbound (via I-85 northbound and the Durham Freeway).

Sorry for not posting sooner.  The aftermath of this accident came back to haunt last week, as the I-85 Hampton Pointe overpass (Hillsborough/Chapel Hill, Exit 165) was again closed last Wednesday (May 31) at the beginning of a follow-up inspection.  After further inspection, the portion of the structure beneath the southbound lane was found to be safe and reopened the next day.  The posted detour uses I-85 [eastbound]; much of the traffic uses Old Number 10 and Lawrence Road as a bypass route.  NC-86 is still posted as "Alternate I-40" construction route from the New Hope Church Road exit (Exit 263) and the I-85 Split (Exit 259).  This bridge outage doesn't affect [southbound] "Alternate I-40" traffic.

I don't recall ever seeing an emergency bridge outage that affected only traffic in one direction.

[bob7374]

The NCDOT Board officially approved the 2024-2033 STIP document today, it is available at:
https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/planning/STIPDocuments1/NCDOT%20Current%20STIP.pdf

Did not see too many changes to Future Interstate projects from the previous draft. Upgrading US 74 to interstate standards between NC 41 and US 76 is unfunded. The upgrade of US 74 to interstate standards from the Rockingham Bypass to Laurinburg is scheduled for 2031. Only one project on the Winston-Salem Beltway Western Section, from US 52 to NC 67 is funded, with construction to start in 2030. No projects listed regarding upgrading US 52 between the Beltway and Mt. Airy. Upgrading US 29 between Greensboro and Reidsville is still funded work not until 2031. Only 1 of the 3 projects to extend I-795 to I-40 is funded. The upgrade and widening of US 64/264 to become I-87 between Rolesville and  Zebulon is unfunded. Pavement rehab projects for US 264 to upgrade to I-587 still scheduled for 2025. Will be updating my pages with this new information soon.

[LM117]

I-795 near the Wayne/Wilson county line is expected to be closed for 4 hours due to a massive pile up.

Jesus...WTF caused this?

https://www.wral.com/story/i-795-closed-near-wilson-wayne-counties-after-massive-pile-up/20898216/

EDIT: The article has been updated. Apparently, there was zero visibility due to smoke from a nearby burning wheat field.

[architect77]

My vague memory was that it was FHWA who rejected the I-640 designation when it was first requested (sometime in the early '90s IIRC.)  The comment then was that the even numbered designation would "confuse" drivers because the even number implied that it was a loop, and that it would take decades for the road to connect back to I-40.  (I believe this might have been before the Beltline was designated as I-440, but things blend together after so many years.  Could somebody with the researching chops remind me when that happened?)

So, ironically, the I-640 designation was rejected because it might confuse drivers, and now the I-540 designation is kept (to many erroneously) to supposedly prevent (local) driver confusion.  If this was the Army, it would definitely be a SNAFU.

The Beltline was designated 440 in 1991. I believe you're correct that the 640/540 decision was in that year or very soon thereafter.

is there any complete interstate loop anywhere in the US that begins with an odd number?

Interstate 520 arguably counts, which forms a beltway around Augusta, Georgia along with I-20.

I stand corrected.

[bob7374]

My wife and I were headed to the Orange County Sportsplex on Wednesday evening (Sep 14) when we encountered an improptu detour on NC-86 where the bridge over I-85 was closed.  I've been swamped this week, but now that I am finally getting back to normal we find that the accident occurred after midnight on Tuesday night.  I-85 [westbound] was still down to one lane at noontime today, and I am not sure whether NCDOT will get both lanes open anytime soon.  Almost all of the paint on the span over the southbound lanes was intensely blackened by the fire.

The NC-86 bridge over I-85 at the Hampton Pointe exit (Hillsborough/Chapel Hill, Exit 165) has finally reopened.  It was still closed as of Friday evening (Sept 23).  "Detour" signs for I-40 (Alternate I-40) have been posted all around the area in advance of the I-40 widening, and it was odd having a real detour on top of it.  Even stranger is that the Alternate I-40 detour on NC-86 northbound is marked for both I-40 westbound (via I-85 southbound) and for I-40 eastbound (via I-85 northbound and the Durham Freeway).

Sorry for not posting sooner.  The aftermath of this accident came back to haunt last week, as the I-85 Hampton Pointe overpass (Hillsborough/Chapel Hill, Exit 165) was again closed last Wednesday (May 31) at the beginning of a follow-up inspection.  After further inspection, the portion of the structure beneath the southbound lane was found to be safe and reopened the next day.  The posted detour uses I-85 [eastbound]; much of the traffic uses Old Number 10 and Lawrence Road as a bypass route.  NC-86 is still posted as "Alternate I-40" construction route from the New Hope Church Road exit (Exit 263) and the I-85 Split (Exit 259).  This bridge outage doesn't affect [southbound] "Alternate I-40" traffic.

I don't recall ever seeing an emergency bridge outage that affected only traffic in one direction.

NCDOT press release about upcoming nightly closures of I-85 South at the NC 86 exit starting next week to allow for bridge repairs:
https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2023/2023-06-14-nc-86-bridge-repairs-overnight-closures.aspx

[Dirt Roads]

^^^
That is quite fortunate.  This detour is now beginning to adversely impact the volume of customers at both the Walmart and Home Depot at Hampton Pointe.  On the other hand, I'm getting spoiled not having to wait in line at either of those stores.

[Dirt Roads]

<snipped> The aftermath of this accident came back to haunt last week, as the I-85 Hampton Pointe overpass (Hillsborough/Chapel Hill, Exit 165) was again closed last Wednesday (May 31) at the beginning of a follow-up inspection.  After further inspection, the portion of the structure beneath the southbound lane was found to be safe and reopened the next day.  The posted detour uses I-85 [eastbound]; much of the traffic uses Old Number 10 and Lawrence Road as a bypass route.  NC-86 is still posted as "Alternate I-40" construction route from the New Hope Church Road exit (Exit 263) and the I-85 Split (Exit 259).  This bridge outage doesn't affect [southbound] "Alternate I-40" traffic.

I don't recall ever seeing an emergency bridge outage that affected only traffic in one direction.

NCDOT press release about upcoming nightly closures of I-85 South at the NC 86 exit starting next week to allow for bridge repairs:
https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2023/2023-06-14-nc-86-bridge-repairs-overnight-closures.aspx

Correction.  Both the article that Bob Malme posted and the article that I posted refer to an accident that occurred on May 31, 2023 where a big rig carrying construction equipment collided with the overpass.  The previous incident that I was referring to was a fiery accident beneath that same overpass on September 14, 2022 (discussed upstream).  I totally missed that the current closure was due to a separate incident.  Sorry, but my main source for discussing this type of local emergency passed away about 20 months ago.

[wdcrft63]

The NC 86 bridge over I-85 is substandard. It is higher over the northbound lanes but it descends over the southbound lanes. There is a warning sign giving the vertical clearance for the right hand southbound lane to be only 13'10" , 2'2"  below the interstate standing. A truck carrying construction equipment hit it, damaging the northbound side of the bridge and causing NCDOT to close Nc 86 northbound.

[The Ghostbuster]

The overpass at the NC 86 interchange looks pretty old: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0588965,-79.0826976,3a,75y,71.62h,96.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQWiRfUAwPJ4YDTU5J11iZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. I don't suppose there are plans to reconstruct the interchange, but it would most certainly be given more vertical clearance whenever it is reconstructed.

[wdcrft63]

The overpass at the NC 86 interchange looks pretty old: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0588965,-79.0826976,3a,75y,71.62h,96.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQWiRfUAwPJ4YDTU5J11iZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. I don't suppose there are plans to reconstruct the interchange, but it would most certainly be given more vertical clearance whenever it is reconstructed.

This is one of the oldest sections of I-85, opened in 1960. Long range the intention is to rebuild the freeway between the I-40 split and Durham with at least 6 lanes, but the new STIP includes only preliminary engineering for the project.

[fillup420]

The overpass at the NC 86 interchange looks pretty old: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0588965,-79.0826976,3a,75y,71.62h,96.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQWiRfUAwPJ4YDTU5J11iZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. I don't suppose there are plans to reconstruct the interchange, but it would most certainly be given more vertical clearance whenever it is reconstructed.

This is one of the oldest sections of I-85, opened in 1960. Long range the intention is to rebuild the freeway between the I-40 split and Durham with at least 6 lanes, but the new STIP includes only preliminary engineering for the project.

The transition between the highway's age at the Durham/Orange county line is very obvious. I'm surprised the NCDOT has allowed the eastern Orange county section to remain basically original, while either side (Durham line and I-40 split) is a wide and modern facility.

Also I hate driving over the NC 86 bridge ever since the initial crash. I lived close by when it happened; i heard it.

[LM117]

NCDOT is holding a public meeting this Wednesday to discuss upgrading US-1 between I-540 in Raleigh and Purnell/Harris roads in Wake Forest.

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2023/2023-06-19-public-meeting-hearing-capital-boulevard-project.aspx

[plain]

NCDOT is holding a public meeting this Wednesday to discuss upgrading US-1 between I-540 in Raleigh and Purnell/Harris roads in Wake Forest.

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2023/2023-06-19-public-meeting-hearing-capital-boulevard-project.aspx

Glad to see some movement on this. As I've said before, I often use this road to reach Raleigh from the north. Traffic definitely does get messy there, this is a worthwhile project.

[NJRoadfan]

Wonder how far Capital Blvd will backup southbound at 540 if/when that upgrade is complete. They really should have built that interchange as free flowing with no lights. Add on the heavy traffic coming from a 4 lane wide freeway and tons of lights south of there.....

[plain]

In a perfect world the upgrade would happen at I-440 going northward instead of just I-540, but there's just way too much development south of 540 for that to happen, at least realistically. The interchange with 540 should be tweaked though.