News:

The AARoads Wiki is live! Come check it out!

Main Menu

Unit MANIA! Re: Thought on UK Driving

Started by agentsteel53, March 30, 2011, 05:01:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

agentsteel53

Quote from: realjd on March 30, 2011, 03:48:49 PM
The other big one is beer.

meanwhile, here in the US, we have two-liter bottles of soda.  is anything else in the US measured in metric?  can't think of anything offhand outside of various technical fields.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com


corco

Quotemeanwhile, here in the US, we have two-liter bottles of soda.  is anything else in the US measured in metric?  can't think of anything offhand outside of various technical fields.

Car engine displacement- most truck driving rednecks with new trucks talk about their 5.4 liter F-150, not their 329 cubic inch F-150 (the weird exception I've noticed is some hardcore folks refer to the Ford 5.0 as a 302 and the Chevy 5.7 as a 350, even in newer iterations of the engine)

agentsteel53

Quote from: corco on March 30, 2011, 05:21:45 PM
Car engine displacement- most truck driving rednecks with new trucks talk about their 5.4 liter F-150, not their 329 cubic inch F-150 (the weird exception I've noticed is some hardcore folks refer to the Ford 5.0 as a 302 and the Chevy 5.7 as a 350, even in newer iterations of the engine)

good point.  sometime in the 70s, there seems to have been a big shift from cubic inches to metric.  nowadays only older muscle cars tend to be referred to as a "427" or whatnot.  well, once a 427, always a 427.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

realjd

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 30, 2011, 05:01:28 PM
meanwhile, here in the US, we have two-liter bottles of soda.  is anything else in the US measured in metric?  can't think of anything offhand outside of various technical fields.

Wine and liquor is sold in metric quantities here (750mL, 375mL, etc) even if we still use imperial terms like "fifth" informally. And fixing things around the house, it seems that I'll end up having to use metric wrenches as often as not. And sports will often use metric distances like in the 100m dash. Oh, and illegal drugs. If tv/movies can be believed - I have no personal experience with this - drugs are usually sold in grams and kilos.

agentsteel53

Quote from: realjd on March 30, 2011, 05:26:11 PM
Wine and liquor is sold in metric quantities here (750mL, 375mL, etc) even if we still use imperial terms like "fifth" informally. And fixing things around the house, it seems that I'll end up having to use metric wrenches as often as not. And sports will often use metric distances like in the 100m dash. Oh, and illegal drugs. If tv/movies can be believed - I have no personal experience with this - drugs are usually sold in grams and kilos.


I'd never really noticed that a "fifth" is really 750mL.  shows my alcohol preference - I just know a standard bottle of beer is 12 ounces  :sombrero:

have not noticed the metric wrench thing either - when working on signs I tend to buy paint in quarts, drill bits with 32nds of an inch size gradations, etc. 

and drugs ... don't ask me why I know this, but an "eight ball" is 1/8th ounce of cocaine. 

(this topic needs to be badly split from the original, and moved to "off-topic"!)
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

realjd

I just thought of a few other common metric uses in the US:
Photographic film (35mm)
Firearms (9mm, 7.62mm, 5.56mm)
Medicine (pill dosages are in mg)

agentsteel53

thanks Steve.

I am definitely maniacal about my unit.

er, units.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

agentsteel53

Quote from: realjd on March 30, 2011, 06:35:05 PM
I just thought of a few other common metric uses in the US:
Photographic film (35mm)
Firearms (9mm, 7.62mm, 5.56mm)
Medicine (pill dosages are in mg)

35mm film was invented in the US, interestingly enough, so I am quite a bit surprised it didn't get an imperial designation.  Some larger-format films are in inches, like 10x8 and 5x4 (inches) while the medium format 6x6 is expressed in centimeters. 

7.62mm is actually .30 inches, and it is simply a metric translation of the old US caliber (see: Winchester 30-30), and 5.56 is .223 inches, another common rifle caliber.  Other calibers that keep their imperial numbers are .22, .38*, .44 - firearms are between US and metric calibers, with a slight bias towards imperial from what I can tell.  9mm is popular one that is clearly of metric origin. 

(* don't ask me why .38 and .357 are actually the same size bullet.  yes, one measures the cartridge and the other the bullet, but why the historical distinction, I have no idea.)

as for medicine, probably because scientists tend to think in metric!  goodness knows that at work we use metric all the time.

live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

corco

#8
Quoteand drugs ... don't ask me why I know this, but an "eight ball" is 1/8th ounce of cocaine.  

I don't have any reason to know this but the marijuana purchasing scheme usually goes gram, 1/8 ounce, ounce, pound, kilo- so it's a weird hybrid. At higher levels I think dealing is done in kilos (I'm really not sure about that- going off movies I guess), and then once it gets down to street dealers it's almost always done in English units except for the gram (I'm very sure about that).

agentsteel53

Quote from: corco on March 30, 2011, 09:29:02 PM
At higher levels I think dealing is done in kilos (I'm really not sure about that- going off movies I guess), and then once it gets down to street dealers it's almost always done in English units except for the gram (I'm very sure about that).

that's because the wholesaling is done in other countries for the most part.  there's a reason why it's not called Birmingham Marching Powder ;)

(obligatory legal disclaimer: I have absolutely no reason to know these slang terms.  Under no circumstances am I aware that some chemical substances produce alterations of mind, body, and mood.  I may or may not be just completely coming up with imaginative fiction for entertainment purposes.  Steve, please refile this thread under Fictional Highways, noting that much drug trafficking takes place along I-99 in Sinaloa, which should be renumbered to US-220.)
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

J N Winkler

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 30, 2011, 09:22:33 PM* don't ask me why .38 and .357 are actually the same size bullet.  yes, one measures the cartridge and the other the bullet, but why the historical distinction, I have no idea.

I am not sure about the origin of the distinction, but my understanding is that it persists because .38 and .357 ammunition are not perfect substitutes for each other even in guns of the correct bore diameter for the bullet.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

agentsteel53

Quote from: J N Winkler on March 30, 2011, 09:39:19 PM


I am not sure about the origin of the distinction, but my understanding is that it persists because .38 and .357 ammunition are not perfect substitutes for each other even in guns of the correct bore diameter for the bullet.

a bit of googling leads to the observation that the .357 is a more powerful variant of the .38.  It's also a fraction of an inch larger, .357 guns can shoot .38s, but not the other way around - this is because .357 guns are built more powerfully: attempting to fire a .357 out of a .38 might damage the gun, the user, possibly even the intended target.

(yet another legal disclaimer: firearms can hurt people.  loading the wrong ammunition may have unintended consequences.  here, why not just put the gun away and snack down on some delicious Birmingham Marching Powder?  (now 35% more possum))
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

realjd

I think many of the differences between similar calibers like .223 and .22, and .44 magnum and .45 are more for branding purposes. They're the same caliber, they just needed a different designator to indicate a difference in ammunition.

5.56x45 (NATO) is almost the same as .223 Remington but not quite. They're not 100% compatible. And the ultra-common 7.62x39 AK-47 round may use .30 caliber bullets, but it's never sold as anything other than 7.62x39 or 7.62 Soviet. The point wasn't that they aren't derived from historic imperial units, only that it's one of the areas where Americans come into contact with metric units.

Speaking of ammo, the US military uses metric for many purposes.

english si

#13
Quote from: realjd on March 30, 2011, 03:48:49 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 30, 2011, 03:33:05 PM
is that the only context in which non-metric units are still used?

Not quite the only context, but close. The other big one is beer. It's sold in pints still (although British gallon/quart/pint is different from American gallon/quart/pint; 1 imperial pint = about 20 American fluid ounces).
Officially only draft beer (stuff pumped out of barrels), though you get 568ml (1 imperial pint) bottles of beer, though normally only British ale comes in bottles of that size. Milk is legally only sold in metric, but supermarkets sell most of their milk in containers that are multiples of 568ml - worth pointing out that smaller stores often only have 500ml multiples of milk, as the dairies are moving to that standard (with supermarket branding holding on to the populist pint multiples). With the pint multiples, they can say it's a pint, but only after the metric amount. Supermarkets get round this by having big numbers (1, 2, 4, 6) on the label with no unit.

You also often get stuff weighing 454g, or a whole number of imperial ounces - the latter mostly tins and stuff.
QuoteTemperature is in degrees C
Having come in early spring, realjd would have found that. In summer there's a lot more mention of deg F, which I remember being the dominate measure just 15 years ago, though only in summer, and even the anti-non-metric BBC would give both units in summer. 32 degrees doesn't sound here nor there, so - the press especially, except the anti-American/pro-Europe lefty papers - used 0C in winter rather than 32F and 90F in summer, rather than 32C.
QuoteWhen we asked directions from a police officer to an open tube station during the mass demonstration last weekend, he told us the nearest open one was 500 meters down the road.
That's in part because it's a policeman, and in part because it's London. Elsewhere you'd have been told 500 yards - probably because the word is nicer to say, as we tend to use yards/metres interchangeably for rough distance. Though it's partially culture and stuff (the metric question is our equivalent of the culture wars, with the 'liberal' culture wanting to metricate like most other countries did - through the suppression of other units - and the 'conservative' culture preferring a more free market, other than a very few who want rid of metric)

The UK is interesting, with more of a free market of units than elsewhere in the world (the US being one of the other few countries, though with the bias towards customary, rather than the metric bias we have), sticks with some imperial units in everyday life - most adults give their weight in stones (14lbs) and pounds, height in feet and inches and markets prefer to sell stuff by the pound, though they have to have the metric up and can only really give imperial as an equivalent.

In the 70s and 80s the school system tried to pretend these units didn't exist, though conversions came back in the 90s. Teaching the imperial system is extra-curricula (though I got taught it in the equivalent of 5th grade, including how to calculate in £sd, which was more an exercise in arithmetic and base than anything), and teachers are likely to have never been taught it, so it's likely to get less common.

Edit: just remembered that fractions (loathed in places like Germany) vs. decimals is a similar debate. Fractions are moving later in the maths syllabus in the UK, probably as a nice bit of sneaky metric indoctrination. I my class began doing sums fractions a few weeks/months before doing sums with decimals, but now they do decimal stuff a good year or two beforehand. This means that those just entering high school much prefer decimals to fractions, rather than being able to deal with both.

agentsteel53

Quote from: english si on March 31, 2011, 08:01:59 AM
anti-non-metric

what a doubleplusungood word.  :-D

Quotemost adults give their weight in stones (14lbs) and pounds
stones are definitely not used in the US.  I barely remember that a stone is 14 pounds.  Most of the time I misremember it as 20 - I am confusing it with the equally archaic "score", which is either unitless 20, or 20 years.  (there's really only one expression in the US in which score is used: "four score and seven years".  other than that, no one uses "score" either, so I couldn't tell you if a "score" is 20 years, or just a 20, like a dozen is unitless 12.)

Quoteincluding how to calculate in £sd
good heavens!  here's one where the US is well more metric than England - our currency has been a dollar divided into 100 cents since the 18th century.  I sure can never remember how many half-groats to a carolus.

Quotethose just entering high school much prefer decimals to fractions, rather than being able to deal with both.
well, objectively, decimals tend to be easier to manipulate than fractions.  I write computer programs that deal with the binary equivalent of decimals (i.e. multiples of 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc... to the right of the binary point) and I shudder every time I have to introduce a 1/3, especially if exact precision is required as opposed to rounding to ".010101...". 
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

english si

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 31, 2011, 11:30:08 AMstones are definitely not used in the US.
Did I say they were used in the US? I just said we in the UK use them. They help make the numbers smaller as well, which is a bonus. Few Brits remember that there's 14lbs in a stone, mostly as it's about comparison and estimation.
QuoteI barely remember that a stone is 14 pounds.  Most of the time I misremember it as 20 - I am confusing it with the equally archaic "score", which is either unitless 20, or 20 years.  (there's really only one expression in the US in which score is used: "four score and seven years".  other than that, no one uses "score" either, so I couldn't tell you if a "score" is 20 years, or just a 20, like a dozen is unitless 12.)
Score is a dimensionless 20, not that anyone uses it anymore. French keeps the idea in it's word for 80 (four-twenty would be a literal translation), with 70 being sixty-ten and 90 being four-twenty-ten, but other than that it ended a while ago.
Quotegood heavens!  here's one where the US is well more metric than England - our currency has been a dollar divided into 100 cents since the 18th century.  I sure can never remember how many half-groats to a carolus.
Well, we only did it as a maths exercise - it was 1996 (or 1997), so 25 years after the UK decimalised (well really centimalised) it's money.

Until about 1900, poor people dealt in shillings and pence and rich people dealt in pounds and shillings, so it wasn't a problem that there were three levels, as people just used two of them. In much of continental Europe they don't mint Euro 1c or 2c coins, and tend to give change rounded to the nearest 5c, so it seems like we've inflated out of the period where pence are relevant and we're all on a £s system now, or whatever the language/nation equivalents are.

I found out yesterday that it was a French idea (well Charlemange, copying the Romans somewhat) to have 240 pennies in a pound, and 20 shillings in the pound. So it was common throughout Europe to have the divisions we kept until 1971. Money isn't covered by the metric system, but the USA is the trend setter when it comes to having cents.

Half-groat is a nonsense thing - a groat hasn't been used since about 1400 (ceremonial Maundy money excepted), and was worth 4d - so a half-groat is tuppence and has likely a term never before used. A Carolus, I had to look up, was short-lived and 17th century, and worth a pound (the Spanish varients, named after different king Charles' were also worth a pound (so called, as it was the worth of a pound of silver), though they call that a peso. The Spanish pound was divided into 8 pieces - hence a quarter in the US is sometimes called '2 bits' and you have the term 'pieces of eight'), until it was worth 23 shillings (for some unknown reason). Thus there are either 120 or 138 'half-groats' in a Carolus. However I'm very likely the first person ever who's worked that out, as it is a pointless sum that wouldn't have been done before, and perhaps set just to poison the well?

agentsteel53

yes, I did just pick the two denominations I could think of with the funniest-sounding names.  :-D  I *have* heard of a half-groat before; don't ask me why. 

(I think somewhere I have a British silver coin, but it is a fairly nondescript denomination: either a shilling or a half-crown and has a very elderly Victoria on it.  1899 or so date?)
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

agentsteel53

#17
interestingly, it seems that the decimal dollar predates the metric system.  it had been agreed upon by 1785, while the metric system dates to 1791.

I believe the 1787 fugio cent was indeed 1/100th of a dollar (Spanish milled, likely).  For sure the first issues of 1792 were that way.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

realjd

Yet stocks in the US were sold and listed in 1/16 increments until around 2001.

Alps

Numismatism: I believe the Spanish real was downgraded to 23 shillings so as not to compete with the British pound among merchants. (Pieces of eight were at times even more popular than American currency here.)



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.