Winter Weather

[wxfree]

In the DFW area we had a winter storm last week.  We had 2 to 3 inches of sleet, which turned to slush and turned to ice when temperatures fell into the teens.  Unlike our usual rapid warm-up, temperatures have stayed cold for days.  Over the weekend the ice was wet and extremely slick.  Driving was very difficult.  Gas stations, stores, and restaurants are running out of their wares as a result of trucks being delayed (not common for this area).  Fortunately, the roads are clearing and tomorrow's high is forecast to be in the 40s.

Traffic was awful all weekend, and Monday TxDOT brought in road graders from all over the state to scrape the ice off the major highways.  This, of course, backed up traffic behind the graders.  Remember this is ice, not snow, and is not easily removed.  I had to shovel it off a short walk for my grandmother, and it's hard work involving sledge hammers and shovels.

People are complaining about TxDOT incompetence, saying they should have been ready for the event and gotten it taken care of more quickly.  I understand that people will complain when they're inconvenienced, but I'm wondering if it's true that TxDOT is a laughingstock for their incompetent response.  More accurately, I'm wondering if other states are, as many claim, capable of removing ice quickly.  Removing the slush before it freezes would be best, but the whole DFW region only has about 30 TxDOT snow plows, plus about 10 for the NTTA.

I have almost no experience with winter driving conditions in other areas, and have not seen those conditions responded to.  Are people just complaining, or are we Texans just slow at responding to icy roads?

[jeffandnicole]

Just complaining.  There are some people that want the roads heated so the ice will melt as soon as it his the pavement.

If an area doesn't get hit with snow/ice that often, they're not going to have the proper equipment.  And when there's very unusual cases of weather as you mentioned above, it is just going to take a while to clear. And yes, traffic will back up - doesn't matter what the equipment is - plows, salt trucks, graders, etc, cannot go 70 mph and do their job.

As for the complainers: Here in NJ, if there's a heavy snowfall (such as a foot of snow), people complain that Buffalo, NY would have had no problem removing 12" of snow. And they're mostly right...because NJ will get a 12" snowfall every couple of years, where Buffalo will get snow every night for a month.  Their equipment and manpower will be much different than what NJ has.  But...talk to those in VA, and they are very impressed at how quickly NJ will clear their roads. 

Some people that have no problem calling in sick to go to the shore on a 90' day in the summer will suddenly believe on a snow day that their job is the most important job ever, and they MUST get into the office, and those roads better be absolutely clear of snow and ice, even as it continues to fall.

[cpzilliacus]

Just complaining.  There are some people that want the roads heated so the ice will melt as soon as it his the pavement.

Good in theory.  Kind of expensive in reality.

If an area doesn't get hit with snow/ice that often, they're not going to have the proper equipment.  And when there's very unusual cases of weather as you mentioned above, it is just going to take a while to clear. And yes, traffic will back up - doesn't matter what the equipment is - plows, salt trucks, graders, etc, cannot go 70 mph and do their job.

Based on my (admittedly informal) observations, the best they can do is between 35 and 40 MPH when plowing or salting or sanding.

As for the complainers: Here in NJ, if there's a heavy snowfall (such as a foot of snow), people complain that Buffalo, NY would have had no problem removing 12" of snow. And they're mostly right...because NJ will get a 12" snowfall every couple of years, where Buffalo will get snow every night for a month.  Their equipment and manpower will be much different than what NJ has.  But...talk to those in VA, and they are very impressed at how quickly NJ will clear their roads.

Virginia (at least Northern Virginia) does an acceptable job of winter maintenance, even though there are some seasons where that part of the state gets little or  no snow or other frozen precipitation at all.

Worst example of winter non-maintenance I have ever seen was during the massive January 1996 snowstorm, when nearly all streets in the District of Columbia were unplowed several weeks after the snow stopped.  Arterials were (slightly) cleared, and those maintained by the National Park Service and the Architect of the Capitol were in good shape. 

It also happened that this was during the last term in office of former Mayor-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr.

Some people that have no problem calling in sick to go to the shore on a 90' day in the summer will suddenly believe on a snow day that their job is the most important job ever, and they MUST get into the office, and those roads better be absolutely clear of snow and ice, even as it continues to fall.

This is correct - though not all that common in the D.C. area, where most just prefer to stay at home.

[Brandon]

I have almost no experience with winter driving conditions in other areas, and have not seen those conditions responded to.  Are people just complaining, or are we Texans just slow at responding to icy roads?

Both.  For an area around the Great Lakes, we would consider having only 30 plows for the DOT district as ridiculous.  IDOT District 1 has far more more plows.  Our plows are usually maintenance trucks that have a plow attached on the front and a salt spreader attached to the back.  Even a large amount of ice should be melted rather quickly IMHO if continually salted.  Some municipalities (such as Chicago) add extra plows during the winter by attaching plow blades to their garbage trucks.  IIRC, the City of Chicago has something on the order of 288 plow trucks.

All of these plows, and even private contractors (some municipalities augment their plows with them) were active during the Groundhog Day Blizzard of 2011.  Some 20 inches of snow was dumped by the storm across the area.  The storm hit on February 1, and the roads were mostly cleared by the afternoon of February 2.

[wxfree]

We just got plows after the Super Bowl storm.  I'd always wondered why we didn't have them.  We've long had sand trucks.  They bought the expensive part, the truck, but didn't have the less expensive part, the plow attachments.  Districts to the west and northwest have had plows for years.  I think part of the reason, in addition to the infrequency of winter storms, and relative rarity of extended cold spells, is that there is quite a bit of winter equipment spread around the state, and it's mobile.  They generally have the trucks sand and plow their home areas as needed, and then move them to the worst-hit areas.  This strategy doesn't work as well when the storm is large.

Also, we don't make much effort to clear ice in the private sector.  I know no one with a snow shovel.  When snow or ice falls, we don't shovel or plow sidewalks and parking lots (except in individual cases for people with special needs), we just let it melt, which usually happens that afternoon or the next day, and sometimes throw salt on it.  That culture has probably crept into TxDOT's attitudes.

[vdeane]

These "infrequent" storms seem to be happening all the time these days.

[SD Mapman]

Well, we out in Spearfish had a MASSIVE storm in October... and the city's snow removal is crap. They think piling everything up in the middle of the street is an efficient method of snow removal.

[hotdogPi]

Northeast MA:

Last year, it was on Halloween.

This year, there isn't one yet.

[roadman]

Northeast MA:

Last year, it was on Halloween.

This year, there isn't one yet.

Wait until this weekend (12/14 and 12/15).

http://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=MAZ015&warncounty=MAC025&firewxzone=MAZ015&local_place1=&product1=Hazardous+Weather+Outlook#.Uqjxf6-A0cA

[hotdogPi]

Wait until this weekend (12/14 and 12/15).

http://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=MAZ015&warncounty=MAC025&firewxzone=MAZ015&local_place1=&product1=Hazardous+Weather+Outlook#.Uqjxf6-A0cA

Rockingham NH safe? It will probably not be as bad where I am.

[cpzilliacus]

TOLLROADSnews: Dallas TX NTTA in sixth day of 2x12 hours shifts plowing snow, slush, salting ice

2013-12-10:  North Texas Tollway Authority report they're into their sixth consecutive day of maintenance crews doing twin 12 hour shifts plowing snow and spreading sand and salt to keep their pikes open. As of 5am this morning they reported roadway sensor readings on decks of overpasses and bridges as ranging between 18.5F and 21.9F,  -7.5C and  -5.6C. As of 11am this morning the range was 24.6F to 35.4F, -4.1C to 1.9C. By 3:15pm the range was 30.8F to 41F, -0.7C to 5C.

Normal daily lows for Dallas are 39F, 4C in December.

Michael Rey spokesman says they've had a bit of everything in the past week  - snow, sleet, freezing rain but mostly their problem has been freezing rain and refreeze of slush. And the most troublesome areas have been bridges and overpass ramps, where despite their best efforts there are often places where ice bonds to deck making for  a slick roadway, and poor tire traction.

[Alex4897]

There are some people that want the roads heated so the ice will melt as soon as it his the pavement.

As a high school student who enjoys snow days that worries me. lol

[cpzilliacus]

We just got plows after the Super Bowl storm.  I'd always wondered why we didn't have them.  We've long had sand trucks.  They bought the expensive part, the truck, but didn't have the less expensive part, the plow attachments.  Districts to the west and northwest have had plows for years.  I think part of the reason, in addition to the infrequency of winter storms, and relative rarity of extended cold spells, is that there is quite a bit of winter equipment spread around the state, and it's mobile.  They generally have the trucks sand and plow their home areas as needed, and then move them to the worst-hit areas.  This strategy doesn't work as well when the storm is large.

How often is the equipment (as in the plows and push frames) needed in around Dallas and Fort Worth?

I assume it is a policy decision as to having equipment to plow and treat the highway network.

Also, we don't make much effort to clear ice in the private sector.  I know no one with a snow shovel.  When snow or ice falls, we don't shovel or plow sidewalks and parking lots (except in individual cases for people with special needs), we just let it melt, which usually happens that afternoon or the next day, and sometimes throw salt on it.  That culture has probably crept into TxDOT's attitudes.

In some parts of the (north) East, it is illegal to not clear sidewalks.

[wxfree]

We just got plows after the Super Bowl storm.  I'd always wondered why we didn't have them.  We've long had sand trucks.  They bought the expensive part, the truck, but didn't have the less expensive part, the plow attachments.  Districts to the west and northwest have had plows for years.  I think part of the reason, in addition to the infrequency of winter storms, and relative rarity of extended cold spells, is that there is quite a bit of winter equipment spread around the state, and it's mobile.  They generally have the trucks sand and plow their home areas as needed, and then move them to the worst-hit areas.  This strategy doesn't work as well when the storm is large.

How often is the equipment (as in the plows and push frames) needed in around Dallas and Fort Worth?

I assume it is a policy decision as to having equipment to plow and treat the highway network.

We don't get ice every year, but it happens once or twice most years.  Snow is less common.  Actually, there's a web page about significant snow and ice events.  http://www.srh.noaa.gov/fwd/?n=dsnows

Events are usually localized, with a band or two of heavy snow, ice elsewhere, and nothing in some places.  Generally equipment is moved to where it's needed.  Interestingly, in my memory the 80s and 90s had a lot of ice, while in the 00s and the new decade, snow happens more often.  We had a snow event every year or two during that period.  If this keeps up, we'll have to stop thinking of snowfall as a rare event.

For the time I remember sanding has been needed every 1 to 3 years in my location, and probably more frequently somewhere in the area.  I remember ice storms as a child, in the 80s, but nothing more than a dusting or maybe an inch of snow.  The first big snow I remember was in '97, but since 2000 we haven't gone more than two years without snow somewhere.  The plows seem to be a good investment.

I think the real issue has to do with not wanting to use too much salt.  What we call sanding uses sand, small gravel, and a salt.  I seem to remember the type of salt used changing a few years ago.  There's also some expensive stuff that's reserved for the high interchange bridges.  I don't know much about pre-treating or de-icing, but I remember reading some non-authoritative commentary about TxDOT having an aversion to heavy salting.

[Brian556]

I grew up in Denton County, Tx. Born in 1980.

We had a lot of good winter weather in the 80's, with some good snow accumulations.
In the 90's, we had mostly Freezing Rain and Sleet, with less snow. Never got over 2 inches of anything.

Larger snow and sleet accumulations have increased in recent years.
2004- appx 6 snowinches in Denton
2008 7 inches snow  in Denton.
2010 1 ft snow in Lewisville
2011 Appx 2-3 inches sleet, stuck around on roads 4 days
2013 appx 3.5 in sleet in Lewisville.

We really do need plows. I'm glad Flower Mound got some and used them. It helped greatly. The buildup between the wheel paths was too great and was touching the bottom of my car.

It looks like TxDOT needs to change their attitude/approach to snow/ice removal. During significant accumulation events, they should probably plow more than once as the precip is falling, before it freezes into an ice sheet too thick to remove.

Everytime there is a big winter weather event, tons of trucks and other vehicles get stuck on interstates for hours to days. Most recently, this happened on I-35 near Sanger. I heard they were sending the National Guard to help stranded drivers.

I'm thinking that 18 wheelers getting stuck is the primary cause of the traffic coming to a halt. Maybe we need to require them to use chains during icy conditions.

[txstateends]

Even when the streets are in better shape, you still get post-storm isolated incidents like these, where remaining roof ice slides off buildings, with predictable results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEmrUhX1fLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCfwNcurP8o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P63ObnL-N8w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOMLWEK2oH8

I was fortunate, no ice-from-above issues like those.

[cpzilliacus]

[I have never driven on the Tollway network in the winter - but it is a really neat idea to provide this extra layer of customer service during periods of very cold weather.]

TOLLROADSnews: Illinois Tollway activating Zero Weather patrols

With Chicago area  temperatures forecast to drop to Zero fahrenheit, -20C the Illinois Tollway has instituted round the clock patrols to quickly assist stranded drivers known as Zero Weather Road Patrols (ZWRPs). A minimum of eleven  ZWRPs trucks - extended cab trucks will supplement "HELP"   (Highway Emergency Lane Patrol) trucks that patrol the system 5am to 8pm Monday-Friday.

Both are there to help with any incidents they see, that get reported, or are detected by video surveillance.

The HELP patrols program is funded by State Farm insurance company, but the ZWRPs are funded by the Tollway for the duration of the extreme low temperatures.

Motorists can get assistance by dialing *999 on their mobile phones.

[Brandon]

^^ That's fairly typical on the Illinois Tollway System.  They add more patrols of HELP trucks during cold weather or holidays.  ISTHA is also very good about plowing and salting the system during the winter.

[jeffandnicole]

[I have never driven on the Tollway network in the winter - but it is a really neat idea to provide this extra layer of customer service during periods of very cold weather.]

TOLLROADSnews: Illinois Tollway activating Zero Weather patrols

With Chicago area  temperatures forecast to drop to Zero fahrenheit, -20C the Illinois Tollway has instituted round the clock patrols to quickly assist stranded drivers known as Zero Weather Road Patrols (ZWRPs). A minimum of eleven  ZWRPs trucks - extended cab trucks will supplement "HELP”  (Highway Emergency Lane Patrol) trucks that patrol the system 5am to 8pm Monday-Friday.

Both are there to help with any incidents they see, that get reported, or are detected by video surveillance.

NJDOT has their Safety Service Patrol (SSP) that normally operates from 4:30am to 8pm weekdays, 10:30am to 8pm weekends, on large portions of the interstates highways, along with Routes 29, 42, 55 & 440.  During snow and other weather events, those SSP trucks are also on duty, and will run 24 hours a day as necessary until the weather event is over and the roads are cleared.

The NJ Turnpike, Parkway and Expressway also has their own service patrol program, but nothing as extensive as NJDOT's.

[Zeffy]

...along with Routes 29, 42, 55 & 440...

Is there any particular reason that they chose those 4 state highways? I can see 42 and 440 definitely, but 29 doesn't seem like that big of a deal (well, other then to get into Trenton), and I can't offer my opinion on 55, but looking at it on Google Maps, I would say it seems important enough to warrant clearing it.

[jeffandnicole]

...along with Routes 29, 42, 55 & 440...

Is there any particular reason that they chose those 4 state highways? I can see 42 and 440 definitely, but 29 doesn't seem like that big of a deal (well, other then to get into Trenton), and I can't offer my opinion on 55, but looking at it on Google Maps, I would say it seems important enough to warrant clearing it.

Traffic volumes.  The state routes covered are interstate-like (limited access).  29 is covered from the 195/295 interchange to the first traffic light at Cass St, and is a high volume highway, especially during the day.  While traffic volumes at night are much lighter, one of the purposes of the SSP is to clear out any incidents that may occur before traffic volumes rise and create a major bottleneck, especially during the rush hour.

As for Route 55, traffic is quite heavy.  The traffic volumes on the 4 lane highway in the northern most section as it approaches Route 42 exceeds the 6 lane I-295, especially south of the Paulsboro, Exit 18 area. (Over 50,000 AADT for both roadways)

[Alps]

...along with Routes 29, 42, 55 & 440...

Is there any particular reason that they chose those 4 state highways? I can see 42 and 440 definitely, but 29 doesn't seem like that big of a deal (well, other then to get into Trenton), and I can't offer my opinion on 55, but looking at it on Google Maps, I would say it seems important enough to warrant clearing it.

Traffic volumes.  The state routes covered are interstate-like (limited access).  29 is covered from the 195/295 interchange to the first traffic light at Cass St, and is a high volume highway, especially during the day.  While traffic volumes at night are much lighter, one of the purposes of the SSP is to clear out any incidents that may occur before traffic volumes rise and create a major bottleneck, especially during the rush hour.

As for Route 55, traffic is quite heavy.  The traffic volumes on the 4 lane highway in the northern most section as it approaches Route 42 exceeds the 6 lane I-295, especially south of the Paulsboro, Exit 18 area. (Over 50,000 AADT for both roadways)

29, 42, 55, and 440 all have freeway portions. But so do 3 and 4, also with high volumes. Why aren't the patrols there? How about 1/9 (Newark), 1 (Trenton), 139...

[Zeffy]

Add 18 to that list as well.

[Alps]

Add 18 to that list as well.

"..."

[NE2]

29, 42, and 440 are extensions of Interstates, so they probably just said fuck it, let's do them rather than turn around where the Interstate ends.