Contradictory signs

[kphoger]

"We advise that you slow down to 20 mph, but you may now speed up to 55 mph"

Yes, that is the correct interpretation of those signs.  The two clauses in your sentence are not contradictory.

[jakeroot]

I'm extremely saddened that webny99 would rather NYSDOT be a nanny state like so many others.

The signs are not contradictory; how fast I should go and how fast I can go are not the same thing. Be glad New York doesn't nanny you guys and wait until after those curves to remind you that the 35 zone had ended like tons of other states likely would.

[kphoger]

I'm extremely saddened

Wow, I'm only mildly bemused.

[jakeroot]

I'm extremely saddened

Wow, I'm only mildly bemused.

Dramatic opinions only, please.

I say "saddened" because we finally find a good example of a state not nannying drivers, and a roadgeek thinks it's bizarre. They finally got to one of us...

[CoreySamson]

Here's another one that's a bit misleading at first sight but is just another victim of sloppy placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1848815,-95.3876132,3a,75y,196.97h,86.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3zY4HJJA-vGbH1SPGWfxVQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The 55 mph sign is for the curve in the road ahead, not the exit, but it looks like it could be for it. But when you get up close to the exit, it has an advisory speed of 10 mph:
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1838372,-95.3875944,3a,40.8y,195.45h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdkZDbrcaiRzk-K-xB9YkAA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I would prefer to see the curve advisory sign placed after the gore point to avert any confusion. It should be obvious, but it's a little murkier than it needs to be.

[interstatefan990]

I'm extremely saddened

Wow, I'm only mildly bemused.

Dramatic opinions only, please.

I say "saddened" because we finally find a good example of a state not nannying drivers, and a roadgeek thinks it's bizarre. They finally got to one of us...

Well, would you look at that. Yet another example of roadgeeks obsessing over the smallest things that no one else pays any attention to. 

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

The NY MUTCD advises to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign where the speed limit increases to the statutory 55 mph, but a lower speed is advised by conditions like adverse alignment. Then the "STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 MPH" sign is supposed to be used at the end of the adverse condition, but a lot of regions usually omit that sign.

[Scott5114]

Now I'm curious to know if a speed study is required for posting an advisory tab, same as it would be for posting a lower regulatory speed limit.  Anybody know?

I believe advisory tabs are just calculated according to a (usually rather conservative) formula.

[kphoger]

I would prefer to see the curve advisory sign placed after the gore point to avert any confusion. It should be obvious, but it's a little murkier than it needs to be.

Kind of late by that point to slow down from 60 to 10 mph, though, don't you think?

[hotdogPi]

I would prefer to see the curve advisory sign placed after the gore point to avert any confusion. It should be obvious, but it's a little murkier than it needs to be.

Kind of late by that point to slow down from 60 to 10 mph, though, don't you think?

The curve advisory, not the exit advisory.

[webny99]

I'm extremely saddened that webny99 would rather NYSDOT be a nanny state like so many others.

The signs are not contradictory; how fast I should go and how fast I can go are not the same thing. Be glad New York doesn't nanny you guys and wait until after those curves to remind you that the 35 zone had ended like tons of other states likely would.

"Nanny"? Come on. In what context could it possibly even be relevant to the motorist? If we're giving the state the benefit of the doubt that 20 mph is the correct advisory speed, there is absolutely no reason for the 55 mph sign.

"We advise that you slow down to 20 mph, but you may now speed up to 55 mph"

Yes, that is the correct interpretation of those signs.  The two clauses in your sentence are not contradictory.

contradictory
adjective - mutually opposed or inconsistent

.. so it's a textbook example of contradictory.

The NY MUTCD advises to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign where the speed limit increases to the statutory 55 mph, but a lower speed is advised by conditions like adverse alignment. Then the "STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 MPH" sign is supposed to be used at the end of the adverse condition, but a lot of regions usually omit that sign.

Now now, don't go spoiling all our fun with such a simple and obvious solution. 

[kphoger]

I would prefer to see the curve advisory sign placed after the gore point to avert any confusion. It should be obvious, but it's a little murkier than it needs to be.

Kind of late by that point to slow down from 60 to 10 mph, though, don't you think?

The curve advisory, not the exit advisory.

D'oh!  Geez, I'm not interpreting things very well lately...

[kphoger]

"We advise that you slow down to 20 mph, but you may now speed up to 55 mph"

Yes, that is the correct interpretation of those signs.  The two clauses in your sentence are not contradictory.

contradictory
adjective - mutually opposed or inconsistent

.. so it's a textbook example of contradictory.

No.

You are 100% allowed to speed up to 55 mph:  "You may now speed up to 55 mph."

It is also recommended that you slow down to 20 mph:  "We advise that you slow down to 20 mph.

Both things are true.  They are not mutually opposed or inconsistent.

[webny99]

contradictory
adjective - mutually opposed or inconsistent

.. so it's a textbook example of contradictory.

No.

You are 100% allowed to speed up to 55 mph:  "You may now speed up to 55 mph."

It is also recommended that you slow down to 20 mph:  "We advise that you slow down to 20 mph.

Both things are true.  They are not mutually opposed or inconsistent.

What you're saying is that they're not mutually exclusive, because they can both be true at once.

They're still contradictory, though (opposed to one another and inconsistent with each other) because it is not possible to do both things at once.

[Scott5114]

If they can both be true at once, they're not contradictory.

[vdeane]

Legally speaking, a speed limit is supposed to be a speed limit - not a target.  So "you're legally permitted to go up to 55 but we advise you go 20" is not contradictory (unlike, say, the laws of Alanland).  It's only when you start thinking of the speed limit as a target that things start to look problematic ("how can I do 55 and 20 at the same time?").  And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve.  Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55?  Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits?  If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit (also remember that, legally speaking, it's not permissible to accelerate for a higher limit until after you pass the sign!  I know someone who got a ticket for doing the typical "accelerate to match the new limit before the first sign is passed").

[webny99]

And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve.  Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55?  Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits?  If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...

The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.

[hotdogPi]

And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve.  Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55?  Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits?  If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...

The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.

So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?

[webny99]

And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve.  Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55?  Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits?  If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...

The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.

So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?

No. 50 and 55 are the only ones I'm aware of, and those are close enough to each other that it doesn't matter. Besides, there would be a 55 mph sign past the curves.

[hotdogPi]

And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve.  Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55?  Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits?  If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...

The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.

So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?

No. 50 and 55 are the only ones I'm aware of, and those are close enough to each other that it doesn't matter. Besides, there would be a 55 mph sign past the curves.

That road would have a default of 40 in Massachusetts.

[webny99]

If they can both be true at once, they're not contradictory.

Legally speaking, a speed limit is supposed to be a speed limit - not a target.  So "you're legally permitted to go up to 55 but we advise you go 20" is not contradictory (unlike, say, the laws of Alanland).  It's only when you start thinking of the speed limit as a target that things start to look problematic ("how can I do 55 and 20 at the same time?").

I get what you're saying. In this context, however, it's a little different because this is the first 55 mph sign coming out of a 35 mph zone. That's why the "END XX MPH LIMIT" would be my preference (and apparently the state's preference too, so this must have been an oversight).

So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?

No. 50 and 55 are the only ones I'm aware of, and those are close enough to each other that it doesn't matter. Besides, there would be a 55 mph sign past the curves.

That road would have a default of 40 in Massachusetts.

Is 40 a statewide default, though?

[hotdogPi]

That road would have a default of 40 in Massachusetts.

Is 40 a statewide default, though?

Yes, since the road is not divided (divided roads are 50). In addition, if the road considered is thickly settled (which is defined based on density of houses, and there's no clear cut way to figure out if it is or not if it's borderline), it's 30 instead of 40.

[jakeroot]

I'm extremely saddened that webny99 would rather NYSDOT be a nanny state like so many others.

The signs are not contradictory; how fast I should go and how fast I can go are not the same thing. Be glad New York doesn't nanny you guys and wait until after those curves to remind you that the 35 zone had ended like tons of other states likely would.

"Nanny"? Come on. In what context could it possibly even be relevant to the motorist? If we're giving the state the benefit of the doubt that 20 mph is the correct advisory speed, there is absolutely no reason for the 55 mph sign.

"Nanny" meaning deceptive practices that intentionally undermine the reasonable decision making of the general motoring public. If the limit increases to 55 but they specifically choose to not post it because they fear drivers may ignore the advisory limit, that's nannying. NYS did not do that here, ergo they are not nannying drivers into going 20 when they could legally go much faster than that if they want.

From looking at street view: could I take that first corner at 55? Not sure. But I could probably take it at 40 or more. 20 is too low. But the point is I can make that decision on my own, and the state lets me make that decision. Bravo.

[jeffandnicole]

And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve.  Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55?  Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits?  If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...

The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.

So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?

Well, technically, you need to know every law of the state you're in.  Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse.  If you made a left on red in 5 specific states, the cop doesn't care that your state may allow it.

[kphoger]

The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.

To me, that's splitting hairs.  "END XX MPH LIMIT" means the same darned thing in New York as the sign that's actually there.