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Author Topic: Georgia  (Read 482764 times)

ran4sh

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1650 on: May 30, 2021, 08:18:17 PM »

So then why is North Carolina able to build more freeways?

It should also be noted that that's only really true in the past 2 decades. Before NC's recent freeway construction, Georgia had more miles, and definitely more lane miles, of freeway. NC has nothing matching Georgia's "Freeing the Freeways" project from the 80s.

Also, North Carolina ranks #13 highest in fuel excise taxes $0.3635 per gallon (but not so much more than Georgia #23 at $0.3220 per gallon).

Georgia had a recent increase in its fuel tax. For a long time Georgia was known as the state with the lowest fuel taxes in the Southeast.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 08:23:39 PM by ran4sh »
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sprjus4

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1651 on: May 30, 2021, 08:51:13 PM »

North Carolina had a large freeway building era in the 1990s and 2000s. It has slowed down to some extent since, but is still progressing more than most states can say. Still major urban projects ongoing with completing Beltways around Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Fayetteville, and Raleigh The previous couple decades focused on the southern part of Greensboro, all of Charlotte’s, and the northern part of Raleigh.

For major long distance freeway corridors, the 70s and 90s was mainly US-64 and US-264 (connecting towards the Outer Banks, US-17, and Greenville) late 80s and early 90s was mainly I-40 to Wilmington and through Raleigh-Durham, and then the 90s and 2000s were I-73 and I-74 south of Winston-Salem and Greensboro, plus I-795.

My prediction is the 2020s will largely focus on completing I-42, then the 2030s and into 40s will be I-795 and I-87.

Major widening projects, the 90s was I-40/I-85 from Greensboro to Durham, 2010s was I-85 between Lexington and Charlotte, and the 2020s will be I-95 between Lumberton and I-40, and I-26 south of Asheville.

Obviously there are others, but those are ones that stand out.
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US 89

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1652 on: May 30, 2021, 11:42:01 PM »

Also, North Carolina ranks #13 highest in fuel excise taxes $0.3635 per gallon (but not so much more than Georgia #23 at $0.3220 per gallon).

Georgia had a recent increase in its fuel tax. For a long time Georgia was known as the state with the lowest fuel taxes in the Southeast.

Which would explain why, at many state line crossings (such as AL 46/GA 166, AL 9/GA 20, AL 117/GA 48), there is a gas station immediately on the Georgia side of the line. Naturally, Alabama is now the cheaper state to buy gas in.

RoadPelican

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1653 on: May 31, 2021, 01:45:33 PM »

I do remember gas prices in Georgia being cheap and even close to South Carolina up until about 2015 or so.  I think that is when Georgia passed their gas tax increase.  When I travel from NC to South Florida to visit family, I stop for gas twice in SC and then I don't fill up again until the Space Coast area of Florida.  I use to fill up in St. Mary's, Georgia right before crossing the Florida border, but since 2015 I have found gas to be cheaper in Florida than Georgia.
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Ga293

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1654 on: May 31, 2021, 02:24:30 PM »


Which would explain why, at many state line crossings (such as AL 46/GA 166, AL 9/GA 20, AL 117/GA 48), there is a gas station immediately on the Georgia side of the line. Naturally, Alabama is now the cheaper state to buy gas in.

Gas prices, or other vices? Alabama still has no lottery, and quite a few counties recently started allowing alcohol sales/still limit them to inside the city limits of "wet" cities.
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DeaconG

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1655 on: June 04, 2021, 10:19:00 AM »

I do remember gas prices in Georgia being cheap and even close to South Carolina up until about 2015 or so.  I think that is when Georgia passed their gas tax increase.  When I travel from NC to South Florida to visit family, I stop for gas twice in SC and then I don't fill up again until the Space Coast area of Florida.  I use to fill up in St. Mary's, Georgia right before crossing the Florida border, but since 2015 I have found gas to be cheaper in Florida than Georgia.

Yep. I still remember my extended fam in Jackson County, FL drive to Donalsonville, GA to get their gas-18 miles away.
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roadman65

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1656 on: June 05, 2021, 08:12:54 AM »

This is really weird.



Traveling I-20 west before Wesley Chapel Road you see the first guide for I-285.

Then drive past Wesley Chapel Road and you see this.


Both are 2 miles out from I-285 and both are westbound. 


Someone does not know math very well.
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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1657 on: June 08, 2021, 07:20:26 PM »

per the ajc. the 400/285 should be 80 percent complete by years end. it took long enough. i honestly think the 635 below grade toll lane project in Dallas took less time to build and is more efficient when you combine it with the hi-five interchange
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JoeP2

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1658 on: June 09, 2021, 01:00:20 PM »

per the ajc. the 400/285 should be 80 percent complete by years end. it took long enough. i honestly think the 635 below grade toll lane project in Dallas took less time to build and is more efficient when you combine it with the hi-five interchange

Yeah, I worked in Dunwoody for years and had to deal with back ups trying to get on 285 West from Ashford Dunwoody because people already on 285 back up trying to get on 400 north.

Glad that change is happening even if I won't have that commute anymore.
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Tomahawkin

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1659 on: June 09, 2021, 02:02:42 PM »

I avoid Ashford Dunwoody like the plague, I don't think the interchange improvement will do much until both the 400 and 285 express lanes are built
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Tom958

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1660 on: June 10, 2021, 07:33:58 PM »

per the ajc. the 400/285 should be 80 percent complete by years end. it took long enough. i honestly think the 635 below grade toll lane project in Dallas took less time to build and is more efficient when you combine it with the hi-five interchange

There's no way in hell that'll happen. They'll be doing great to get to that point by the end of 2022. Why do they tell people this crap?
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roadman65

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1661 on: June 11, 2021, 10:12:44 AM »



What is up here preventing a right turn through the piece of road intended for it?

This ramp end at I-95 N Bound Exit 29 makes traffic pass through the intersection rather than bypass it with an easier merge.
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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1662 on: June 11, 2021, 10:40:18 AM »



What is up here preventing a right turn through the piece of road intended for it?

This ramp end at I-95 N Bound Exit 29 makes traffic pass through the intersection rather than bypass it with an easier merge.
Must have been problematic somehow given traffic volumes at the merge.  Had to use the light to meter and a few pylons were a lot cheaper than ripping out pavement.
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jmacswimmer

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1663 on: June 11, 2021, 10:42:32 AM »

[img snipped]
What is up here preventing a right turn through the piece of road intended for it?

This ramp end at I-95 N Bound Exit 29 makes traffic pass through the intersection rather than bypass it with an easier merge.
Must have been problematic somehow given traffic volumes at the merge.  Had to use the light to meter and a few pylons were a lot cheaper than ripping out pavement.

If I had to guess, I'd say there was probably an issue with trucks coming off that now-closed ramp and instantly crossing both thru lanes to turn left into the Love's truck stop?  Having traffic turn right at the signal, while less convenient, is safer for traffic looking to immediately turn left.

(I took that ramp back in December - while heading up I-95 returning from Florida, I made a small detour to cross the Sidney Lanier Bridge - and I had to wait behind a line of trucks waiting to turn right at the bottom of the ramp.)
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Tom958

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1664 on: June 11, 2021, 06:49:22 PM »

So, yesterday I was on GDOT's metro Atlanta Facebook page. They'd posted about an upcoming lane closure on 285 to address this rather alarming situation. I was at work, but it was late in the day and no one else had posted, so I posted something about my dislike for those LEFT tabs that are unfortunately mandated by the MUTCD. Someone replied-- a guy who designs signage for another DOT-- posted his disagreement with me, I posted back, mentioning how the APL's at that interchange were... non MUTCD-compliant. We had a nice little conversation going, which I wished to continue when I finished my drive home from work. However, when I arrived home and checked Facebook, my apparently-offensive post was gone, as well as my new pal's reply. Shortly thereafter, GDOT deleted the whole post. 
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ran4sh

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1665 on: June 15, 2021, 12:42:40 AM »

That's part of why I allow Facebook to email me all the notifications it can, including replies to comments and that sort of thing. I've had issues where FB and/or the group or the person creating the post decides to delete it, so it's nice to be able to go through my emails and see what was said.
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tolbs17

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1666 on: June 16, 2021, 04:44:38 PM »

North Carolina had a large freeway building era in the 1990s and 2000s. It has slowed down to some extent since, but is still progressing more than most states can say. Still major urban projects ongoing with completing Beltways around Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Fayetteville, and Raleigh The previous couple decades focused on the southern part of Greensboro, all of Charlotte’s, and the northern part of Raleigh.

For major long distance freeway corridors, the 70s and 90s was mainly US-64 and US-264 (connecting towards the Outer Banks, US-17, and Greenville) late 80s and early 90s was mainly I-40 to Wilmington and through Raleigh-Durham, and then the 90s and 2000s were I-73 and I-74 south of Winston-Salem and Greensboro, plus I-795.

My prediction is the 2020s will largely focus on completing I-42, then the 2030s and into 40s will be I-795 and I-87.

Major widening projects, the 90s was I-40/I-85 from Greensboro to Durham, 2010s was I-85 between Lexington and Charlotte, and the 2020s will be I-95 between Lumberton and I-40, and I-26 south of Asheville.

Obviously there are others, but those are ones that stand out.
And you got I-140, the Wilson bypass, Clayton bypass, and much more.
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Tom958

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1667 on: June 16, 2021, 06:13:13 PM »

That's part of why I allow Facebook to email me all the notifications it can, including replies to comments and that sort of thing. I've had issues where FB and/or the group or the person creating the post decides to delete it, so it's nice to be able to go through my emails and see what was said.

That's beside the point. the point is that GDOT's PR people should learn to engage reasonably with the public rather than, in this case, deleting the whole conversation. Wouldn't it have been wonderful if they'd replied, "Yes, we realize that those signs aren't what they should be. However, since the interchange will be reconfigured in the next few years, the decision has been made to leave them as-is." There. Was that so hard?
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architect77

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1668 on: June 17, 2021, 01:51:01 AM »

So, yesterday I was on GDOT's metro Atlanta Facebook page. They'd posted about an upcoming lane closure on 285 to address this rather alarming situation. I was at work, but it was late in the day and no one else had posted, so I posted something about my dislike for those LEFT tabs that are unfortunately mandated by the MUTCD. Someone replied-- a guy who designs signage for another DOT-- posted his disagreement with me, I posted back, mentioning how the APL's at that interchange were... non MUTCD-compliant. We had a nice little conversation going, which I wished to continue when I finished my drive home from work. However, when I arrived home and checked Facebook, my apparently-offensive post was gone, as well as my new pal's reply. Shortly thereafter, GDOT deleted the whole post. 

I applaud you for having GDOT's attention at all. They don't have systems in place do cover basic maintenance, aND if I'm wrong, they should be called out for deliberate discrimination by avoising basic maintenance in Black and Hispanic areas of the Atlanta metro.

I saw on GMA one morning an interview withe the GDOT employee who was putting the clever pandemic messages on the freeway message boards.

I emailed her at GDOT and requested she do an anti-littering campaign. A couple of months later, I see on the message boards, "Keep the roads clear, We don't litter Here".

It was exactly the tone I wanted, to invoke a sense of pride in where we live and that litter was making a poor reflection on citizens as well as the city.

I just did a 900 mile round trip to Wilmington, Raleigh Charlotte and back to Atlanta.

The new section of I-85 North is fine except the all concrete median has a continuous line of trash and debris for miles going Northbound.

GDOT pairs litter pickup with mowing, but the medians of i-75 and I-85 need much more frequent cleanup.

As for NC, they have a lot of maintenance needs across the state with many damaged signs etc. There are few sections of I-85 that remain 4 lanes, about 40 miles between Durham and the VA State line, about !5 at the SC State line, and only an 8 mile stretch between Durham and the merging of I-40/ I-85 duplex.

That 30-40 mile duplex through Burlington to Greensboro took almost a whopping 10 years to build in the 90s because of being an active highway during construction.

What was most impressive was the stretch South of Greensboro through Charlotte which is now 8 lanes of all concrete pavement and it's just I-85 not a duplex of two interstates. That redeemed NCDOT in my eyes.

I-95 is for out of state traffic and of lesser importance for NC residents but now is finally being rebuilt with several sections totaling I guess around 60 miles or so being widened to 8 lanes.
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architect77

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1669 on: June 17, 2021, 02:10:21 AM »

So, yesterday I was on GDOT's metro Atlanta Facebook page. They'd posted about an upcoming lane closure on 285 to address this rather alarming situation. I was at work, but it was late in the day and no one else had posted, so I posted something about my dislike for those LEFT tabs that are unfortunately mandated by the MUTCD. Someone replied-- a guy who designs signage for another DOT-- posted his disagreement with me, I posted back, mentioning how the APL's at that interchange were... non MUTCD-compliant. We had a nice little conversation going, which I wished to continue when I finished my drive home from work. However, when I arrived home and checked Facebook, my apparently-offensive post was gone, as well as my new pal's reply. Shortly thereafter, GDOT deleted the whole post. 

The issue of the left tabs is all part of a bigger issue of using the size and shape of overheads to convey information without words and the importance of upcoming exits.

GDOT has never grasped that notion and did the opposite by wanting to use one tall and narrow sign size for all  exits which requires more time to understand and process the info.

One of the worst examples is this at I-75 Northbound at I-285. All of the signs are the same size, and there is no hierarchy of importance of the exits, and also the text sizes are multiple sizes and letter spacing is inconsistent.

I swear I believe our big airport precludes Atlantans and GDOT decision makers from driving through other parts of the country and they are literally oblivious to how much better other states can build and maintain highways. Such a shame.

At the bottom is US401 overheads just north of Raleigh at the interchange of its Outerloop which is bout 60% complete and when finished will have a toll for over half of the ~65 mile loop.

I wish Georgia would have overheads on non-interstate highways and especially at interstate junctions (if they would cantilever and not lean in one direction or the other).


3 by Stephen Edwards, on Flickr

540 by Stephen Edwards, on Flickr
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architect77

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1670 on: June 17, 2021, 02:41:16 AM »



What is up here preventing a right turn through the piece of road intended for it?

This ramp end at I-95 N Bound Exit 29 makes traffic pass through the intersection rather than bypass it with an easier merge.
Must have been problematic somehow given traffic volumes at the merge.  Had to use the light to meter and a few pylons were a lot cheaper than ripping out pavement.
So then why is North Carolina able to build more freeways?

It should also be noted that that's only really true in the past 2 decades. Before NC's recent freeway construction, Georgia had more miles, and definitely more lane miles, of freeway. NC has nothing matching Georgia's "Freeing the Freeways" project from the 80s.

Also, North Carolina ranks #13 highest in fuel excise taxes $0.3635 per gallon (but not so much more than Georgia #23 at $0.3220 per gallon).

Georgia had a recent increase in its fuel tax. For a long time Georgia was known as the state with the lowest fuel taxes in the Southeast.

I moved here right at the completion of freeing the freeways and it was too fabulous for words.

But using statistics only doesn't tell the true story. As for official interstate miles Georgia did have more miles as the largest state East of the Mississippi.

And for lane miles, if metro Atlanta's 5 and 6 lane portions of the freeway system, which in fact are deceivingly less than you might think given that only the connector, I-85 North I-285 Top End and I-75 North are the only really wide sections....

are fully weighted in the lane mile category, then yes Georgia has plenty.

However anyone judging these lane miles today would reduce them by a percentage because as we all know one slowdown or fender bender will stop the flow of all the lanes, and thus there is a diminishing return on lanes after the first four.

They are less effective in moving vehicles than the same number of lanes miles on separate roads.

But the biggest point I want to make is the thousands and thousands of miles of 4-lane, divided highways in NC (its default ideal road design) that are NEAR INTERSTATE QUALITY.

If you account for those then NC will have double or triple the amount of partially-limited access highways, that in essence, move traffic like interstate highways.

I think that NC  must not raising gas tax right now as a gift during the pandemic despite their funds being at an all-time low.

It's hard to compare gas taxes even with the internet because of phrases like "excise" which in Georgia may go to the counties, while NCDOT gets all the money and does all the maintenance on over 80,000 miles miles of roads.

GDOT maintains 35,000-40,000 miles and the rest is up to inidividual municipalities and counties.

NC has been aggressively building new roads since the 80s when I-40 finally reached Raleigh and then to Wilmington.

NCDOT recently was awarded about 10 new interstates numbers as it upgrades the above mentioned "near interstate quality" divided highways to full interstate standards. Some include I-87, I-42, I-74, I-73, and then the many spurs like I-885, I-840.
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Dirt Roads

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1671 on: June 17, 2021, 01:40:03 PM »

But the biggest point I want to make is the thousands and thousands of miles of 4-lane, divided highways in NC (its default ideal road design) that are NEAR INTERSTATE QUALITY.

Indeed, but the highway system in and around Atlanta is significantly more complex than Charlotte and Raleigh (combined), and GDOT has made a lot of highway improvements in the Atlanta Metro over the same timeframe.  My argument against comparing Georgia to North Carolina is that one is Atlanta-centric and the other is fairly balanced Rural/Urban...  ...in pretty much every area of life.  My aunt lived in Stone Mountain on two occasions, and I have worked in Atlanta a fair amount.   Quite frankly, I love Atlanta but I wouldn't want to live there.
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sprjus4

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1672 on: June 18, 2021, 01:07:38 AM »

As for NC, they have a lot of maintenance needs across the state with many damaged signs etc. There are few sections of I-85 that remain 4 lanes, about 40 miles between Durham and the VA State line, about !5 at the SC State line, and only an 8 mile stretch between Durham and the merging of I-40/ I-85 duplex.
That segment of I-85 north of Durham doesn’t really need widening, IMO… low traffic volumes overall (under 30,000 IIRC) and not any heavy truck percentages. It seems adequate with 4 lanes, even during peak travel periods. I-95 is a much more pressing issue, with 40,000-60,000 AADT and significantly higher on peak weekends and travel periods. The entire segment between the South Carolina / Georgia state line and VA I-295 needs a minimum of 3 lanes in each direction.
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architect77

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1673 on: June 23, 2021, 06:49:26 PM »

But the biggest point I want to make is the thousands and thousands of miles of 4-lane, divided highways in NC (its default ideal road design) that are NEAR INTERSTATE QUALITY.

Indeed, but the highway system in and around Atlanta is significantly more complex than Charlotte and Raleigh (combined), and GDOT has made a lot of highway improvements in the Atlanta Metro over the same timeframe.  My argument against comparing Georgia to North Carolina is that one is Atlanta-centric and the other is fairly balanced Rural/Urban...  ...in pretty much every area of life.  My aunt lived in Stone Mountain on two occasions, and I have worked in Atlanta a fair amount.   Quite frankly, I love Atlanta but I wouldn't want to live there.

If there ever were two states difficult to compare it is NC and Georgia. They dovetail one another in countless ways. NC has robust systems to keep small towns moving forward, and it is a powerful state from hundreds of small towns collectively.

Georgia has very rural expanses populated by citizens that don’t want any of the stuff Rural NC begs for. It does “big city”  dry well, and the infrastructure it does build is meant to be big and unmistakably like a big, world city.

And while NC tried to keep up with the Northeastern states by being known as
Having the best and most miles of paved roads early on, Georgia didn’t establish that same precedent and was more of a capital of the Deep South. Just look at the county’s city halls and courthouses which are beautiful and ornate symbols of Southern culture.

But back to highways, don’t think that all of the metro’s roads are similar and resemble North Fulton or Gwinnett. Last week I was driving in Conyers at night and it was downright barbaric. GA20, which follows a path that would be spot on for and outer perimeter, was dark and dangerous with insufficient shoulders, abrupt inclines and declines, and even the overpasses over I-20 are the bare minimum 60s designs and are not suitable for a 7 million population region.

GDOT ignores 60% of the metro because it is minority populated. And I hate that no one in those communities demand for better conditions.

Like I say Georgia builds very different-looking infrastructure usually going for one big bold stroke and that’s it. That big city aesthetic likely wouldn’t fly in NC where the local community small scale infrastructure rules, much like Florida save for South Florida.

I heard Peachtree St is getting a makeover, going to check that out.



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architect77

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Re: Georgia
« Reply #1674 on: June 23, 2021, 06:55:31 PM »

But the biggest point I want to make is the thousands and thousands of miles of 4-lane, divided highways in NC (its default ideal road design) that are NEAR INTERSTATE QUALITY.

Indeed, but the highway system in and around Atlanta is significantly more complex than Charlotte and Raleigh (combined), and GDOT has made a lot of highway improvements in the Atlanta Metro over the same timeframe.  My argument against comparing Georgia to North Carolina is that one is Atlanta-centric and the other is fairly balanced Rural/Urban...  ...in pretty much every area of life.  My aunt lived in Stone Mountain on two occasions, and I have worked in Atlanta a fair amount.   Quite frankly, I love Atlanta but I wouldn't want to live there.

I’m going to let these images from TMobile do the talking.  Metro Atlanta maybe more complex, but how much of it was thought out and studied and how much was just sprawl guided by development wothout anyone looking at the big picture.

If you want connectivity which offers multiple alternates to get anywhere, then Raleigh, though small, seems to stand out.

These are all at the same scale:

atl by Stephen Edwards, on Flickr


« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 06:59:34 PM by architect77 »
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