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I-495 and I-270 Managed Lanes

Started by davewiecking, July 11, 2018, 11:41:26 PM

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davewiecking

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 11, 2019, 09:05:26 PM
Agreed. VDOT is constructing their portion all the way to the state line. The HO/T lanes won't run all the way to the state line to begin with, but stub and ghost ramps will be constructed for future use.
Source?
Quote
Maryland is taking the cheap way out and not doing it. The I-270 part will be easy - all of the lanes exist - just repurposing them, and removing the barrier that separates local and thru traffic. That is the worst part about that project.
Ditto.


vdeane

So not only is Maryland doing the section with the least benefit, they're actually removing free capacity from what I gather.  Unless I'm misinterpreting something, that might be enough to turn me against the whole project.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

famartin

Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2019, 09:50:35 PM
So not only is Maryland doing the section with the least benefit, they're actually removing free capacity from what I gather.  Unless I'm misinterpreting something, that might be enough to turn me against the whole project.
It had not been my understanding that they were removing free capacity, but if so, I would also feel likewise.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 11, 2019, 09:05:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2019, 09:03:55 PM
Quote from: goobnav on June 11, 2019, 07:00:10 AM
Yeah, my faith in VDOT and MDSHA has gone from very little to none.  So, will avoid the DC and Baltimore metro areas like the plague until my late 70s and use US 17, begrudgingly to 66 and 81 if ever needed to visit family in PA. 
How is VDOT being a problem here?  Their portion is mostly done with the rest on the way.  I blame MD and MD alone for this mess.
Agreed. VDOT is constructing their portion all the way to the state line. The HO/T lanes won't run all the way to the state line to begin with, but stub and ghost ramps will be constructed for future use.

Especially nice project for when I utilize I-95, I-495, I-270 to travel to/from south of Washington from/to northwest of Washington, on long inter-state trips.
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AlexandriaVA

HOT lanes always have free capacity, just have to hit the carpool threshold. Slugging will arise along the corridors, I'm sure.

sprjus4

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 11, 2019, 10:12:32 PM
HOT lanes always have free capacity, just have to hit the carpool threshold. Slugging will arise along the corridors, I'm sure.
HO/T Lanes (High Occupancy / Toll) do. Then there's just Toll lanes, which is what I-95 has northeast of Baltimore. Everybody pays. And that's what proposed for I-495 and I-270 in Maryland.

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on June 11, 2019, 10:02:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 11, 2019, 09:05:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2019, 09:03:55 PM
Quote from: goobnav on June 11, 2019, 07:00:10 AM
Yeah, my faith in VDOT and MDSHA has gone from very little to none.  So, will avoid the DC and Baltimore metro areas like the plague until my late 70s and use US 17, begrudgingly to 66 and 81 if ever needed to visit family in PA. 
How is VDOT being a problem here?  Their portion is mostly done with the rest on the way.  I blame MD and MD alone for this mess.
Agreed. VDOT is constructing their portion all the way to the state line. The HO/T lanes won't run all the way to the state line to begin with, but stub and ghost ramps will be constructed for future use.

Especially nice project for when I utilize I-95, I-495, I-270 to travel to/from south of Washington from/to northwest of Washington, on long inter-state trips.
My only problem with the lanes is the affordability. When it's $10 - $15 for an entire trip on the entire system, there's usually no traffic, so I would not even consider them. When there is traffic though, that's when I would pay $10 - $15 to ride 40+ miles to avoid it. But in reality, the price then is $50+ for the entire system. And at that point, I'd avoid DC all together or sit in traffic. No way I'm paying that. The New Jersey Turnpike IIRC isn't more than $10, and in Texas, 90 miles of 80 mph toll road bypassing Austin only costs $20 with toll-by-plate. Less with a transponder.

Going Northeast is a breeze from here though, I just head up US-13. Completely avoids everything, and that toll is far more worth it. And going northwest, I usually just use US-17 from Fredericksburg to I-66 to I-81.

The HO/T lanes are a nice concept, but cost WAY too much during traffic. If only a New Jersey Turnpike or Austin style 90+ mile bypass existed where one could pay $10-15 one-way to drive on 8-lane rural interstate swinging around DC. I like the option of building a toll road from Fredericksburg to I-70 near Frederick, then traffic could follow an expanded I-70 back to I-95. Similar to how the Austin toll road ties in to I-10 to get traffic back to I-35 in San Antonio.

Beltway

#82
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 12:18:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 11, 2019, 10:02:13 PM
Especially nice project for when I utilize I-95, I-495, I-270 to travel to/from south of Washington from/to northwest of Washington, on long inter-state trips.
My only problem with the lanes is the affordability. When it's $10 - $15 for an entire trip on the entire system, there's usually no traffic, so I would not even consider them. When there is traffic though, that's when I would pay $10 - $15 to ride 40+ miles to avoid it. But in reality, the price then is $50+ for the entire system. And at that point, I'd avoid DC all together or sit in traffic. No way I'm paying that. The New Jersey Turnpike IIRC isn't more than $10, and in Texas, 90 miles of 80 mph toll road bypassing Austin only costs $20 with toll-by-plate. Less with a transponder.

Those highways don't have 6 or 8 lanes of toll-free general purpose lanes, do they?

I don't mind paying $30+ one-way to use I-95 and I-495 HOT lanes during peak hours for these inter-state trips, and they wouldn't be that expensive at peak hours if the total demand wasn't so high that those toll levels are needed to keep the lanes congestion-free.

They also remove a lot of traffic from the general purpose lanes. 

If you don't want to pay the toll, ok, use the general purpose lanes.

You don't have to use the whole system.  Recently one day the I-95 NB times estimate were good enough that I stayed in the general purpose lanes the whole way, and this was just after peak hours like starting at 10:00 am on a weekday.

Coming back from the Maryland Eastern Shore today, I decided to try US-301.  Tuesday, peak hours, fine weather, no problem, eh?  It was -horrible-, rolling backup after rolling backup, sometimes jammed for a mile or two, at least 60 signals.  It took at least 60 minutes longer than I-95's projected time which per radio traffic reports had no major problems.  Not toll-free either, $6.00 one-way SB toll at the Nice Memorial Bridge.

Thanks but no thanks.  I will use I-95 which is my usual route in the future.
 
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goobnav

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 11, 2019, 09:24:04 PM
Quote from: goobnav on June 11, 2019, 07:00:10 AM
So basically this project is going to mess up the NW corner of the beltway and those trying to bypass Baltimore and New York to head to the New England, personally use it to go back to NE PA, not be done forever and day, just like the Mixing Bowl that took the better part of a decade and, not be done in a constructive way to regulate traffic flow to make this as less of a burden on traffic as it can be. 

Yeah, my faith in VDOT and MDSHA has gone from very little to none.  So, will avoid the DC and Baltimore metro areas like the plague until my late 70s and use US 17, begrudgingly to 66 and 81 if ever needed to visit family in PA. 

If you're heading north from Durham, you might consider going up US-501 to Lynchburg and then US-29 to Charlottesville, then west on I-64 to I-81. Or stay on US-29 up to US-15, then use that north past Leesburg and Frederick to Harrisburg. Or NC-/VA-86 to Danville and then either up US-29 or west on US-58 to US-220. No reason to go up I-95 to US-17, especially with construction ramping up in the Fredericksburg area.

Too many lights and towns, have been up that way, good scenery though.  It would turn a 8 hr trip in 13, just had family come down last week that way and that's how long it took them.
Life is a highway and I drive it all night long!

goobnav

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 12:18:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 11, 2019, 10:02:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 11, 2019, 09:05:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2019, 09:03:55 PM
Quote from: goobnav on June 11, 2019, 07:00:10 AM
Yeah, my faith in VDOT and MDSHA has gone from very little to none.  So, will avoid the DC and Baltimore metro areas like the plague until my late 70s and use US 17, begrudgingly to 66 and 81 if ever needed to visit family in PA. 
How is VDOT being a problem here?  Their portion is mostly done with the rest on the way.  I blame MD and MD alone for this mess.
Agreed. VDOT is constructing their portion all the way to the state line. The HO/T lanes won't run all the way to the state line to begin with, but stub and ghost ramps will be constructed for future use.

Especially nice project for when I utilize I-95, I-495, I-270 to travel to/from south of Washington from/to northwest of Washington, on long inter-state trips.
My only problem with the lanes is the affordability. When it's $10 - $15 for an entire trip on the entire system, there's usually no traffic, so I would not even consider them. When there is traffic though, that's when I would pay $10 - $15 to ride 40+ miles to avoid it. But in reality, the price then is $50+ for the entire system. And at that point, I'd avoid DC all together or sit in traffic. No way I'm paying that. The New Jersey Turnpike IIRC isn't more than $10, and in Texas, 90 miles of 80 mph toll road bypassing Austin only costs $20 with toll-by-plate. Less with a transponder.

Going Northeast is a breeze from here though, I just head up US-13. Completely avoids everything, and that toll is far more worth it. And going northwest, I usually just use US-17 from Fredericksburg to I-66 to I-81.

The HO/T lanes are a nice concept, but cost WAY too much during traffic. If only a New Jersey Turnpike or Austin style 90+ mile bypass existed where one could pay $10-15 one-way to drive on 8-lane rural interstate swinging around DC. I like the option of building a toll road from Fredericksburg to I-70 near Frederick, then traffic could follow an expanded I-70 back to I-95. Similar to how the Austin toll road ties in to I-10 to get traffic back to I-35 in San Antonio.

$26, $18 one way on the CBBT is not worth it.  Can still take the east side of the Beltway and deal with DC and and then Baltimore, on 695, traffic than taking that amount for a toll.  Just have to drive through the metro area either really early or after 10 am.
Life is a highway and I drive it all night long!

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 12:52:56 AM
Those highways don't have 6 or 8 lanes of toll-free general purpose lanes, do they?
You could argue at least 60 miles of the New Jersey Turnpike has I-295 toll-free parallel to it. Most of that I-295 stretch is 6-lanes. You could argue also TX-130 has I-35 through Austin as a toll-free alternative. It's actually the better route during non-peak hours. It's 25 miles shorter, and mostly 75 mph except around Downtown itself. During peak hours though, I'd gladly pay $20 with toll-by-plate to bypass that congestion on the TX-130 toll road, even if it's 25 miles additional. Austin has some horrible traffic on I-35. The only issue that part of the 80 mph toll road is becoming engulfed with suburban sprawl from Austin, and is now a commuter road. Recurring delays occur during peak hours, though it's significantly better than I-35. It's currently being expanded to 6-lanes though, so that should help ease that congestion.

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 12:52:56 AM
I don't mind paying $30+ one-way to use I-95 and I-495 HOT lanes during peak hours for these inter-state trips, and they wouldn't be that expensive at peak hours if the total demand wasn't so high that those toll levels are needed to keep the lanes congestion-free.
For those 40 miles, maybe up to $20, but I wouldn't pay any more. Basically, the way I look at it is why can I pay $20 in Texas and drive 85 mph for 40 miles and 80 mph for another 40 miles and bypass Austin completely, but in North Virginia I pay $40 and get to drive 65 mph for 40 miles, and still get dumped in congestion on either ends?

I understand the reason as you mentioned, though when making that financial decision myself, I wouldn't do it. I get way better value in Texas than here. And a nicer road quite frankly.

If VDOT and MDSHA got serious about constructing an 80 mile toll road stretching from I-95 at Fredericksburg to I-70 at Frederick roughly paralleling US-17 and US-15, I'd be on board. But the last mention has been in the 90s, and nothing got further than a study. It's a rural highway, it's not that hard to construct. They did it in Texas with TX-130 in 2012. They did it with 98 miles of new location toll-free I-69 in Indiana in 2012 and 2016.

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 12:52:56 AM
Coming back from the Maryland Eastern Shore today, I decided to try US-301.  Tuesday, peak hours, fine weather, no problem, eh?  It was -horrible-, rolling backup after rolling backup, sometimes jammed for a mile or two, at least 60 signals.  It took at least 60 minutes longer than I-95's projected time which per radio traffic reports had no major problems.  Not toll-free either, $6.00 one-way SB toll at the Nice Memorial Bridge.
I can agree, US-301 isn't that fun. I've done it many times in my times up that way. Then again, sometimes it's still better than I-95 if you're -not- using the HO/T lanes.

If you're heading to the northwest, US-17 from Fredericksburg to Marshall then I-66 West to I-81 North is a good alternative to I-95, I-495, and I-270. US-17 is mostly 55-60 mph and free-flowing rural highway. A nice scenic route through the country as well.

Quote from: goobnav on June 12, 2019, 09:31:52 AM
$26, $18 one way on the CBBT is not worth it.  Can still take the east side of the Beltway and deal with DC and and then Baltimore, on 695, traffic than taking that amount for a toll.  Just have to drive through the metro area either really early or after 10 am.
Without traffic from Norfolk to the New Jersey Turnpike, it's 5 hours 11 minutes via I-64, I-295, and I-95 and 330 miles. It's 4 hours 46 minutes via I-64, US-13, US-113, and DE-1 and 261 miles. During off-peak hours, that's 25 minutes of additional traveling and 70 additional miles. During off-peak hours, if the distance and times were closer, I may consider it, since I'd prefer to stick to freeways as much as possible. But considering the usual traffic congestion in DC, that time can easily increase to 6 hours without using HO/T lanes. Not to mention, US-13 and US-113 is usually an easy drive, and can usually get up to 65 mph with no issues on the rural stretches. And the northern 50 miles are the DE-1 65 mph toll freeway, which the toll isn't higher than $6.

I find US-13 and US-113 to be more of a relaxing trip, less stressful, light traffic, etc. than I-64 and I-95, especially if there's congestion, which is hard to avoid. Fastest route, 70 miles shorter, etc. And not to mention the frequent recurring congestion on I-64 and I-95 in rural areas.

1995hoo

Regarding the DC-area tolls, if it's a question of paying the tolls for I-95 from the southern end of the HO/T lanes all the way up to the Beltway and then up the Beltway to the Legion Bridge, it would certainly make a difference to me whether I were an occasional user passing through the area on a longer-distance trip or whether it were a daily thing. In the first post in the "Northern Virginia HOT lanes" thread back in August of 2012, mtantillo suggested the same thing:

Quote from: mtantillo on August 14, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
....

Some more points to consider with I-95's heavy weekend and holiday traffic....  If you're a commuter, on Friday afternoons you'll be competing with all of those vacationers for space in those HOT lanes.  I'd expect that the price will be very very high on Fridays.  If I'm taking my once-yearly trip to Virginia Beach, I won't mind paying a $50 toll to escape the frustration of the regular lanes as much as the commuters that won't be able to afford that on a regular basis.  In otherwords, the vacationers will price-out the locals, since the vacationers only have to do it once.  .... 

....

I certainly agree with that. The same would apply to the Bridge-Tunnel as suggested two posts up the thread (I've only been that way once anyway simply because of where it goes).
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sprjus4

#87
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 12, 2019, 10:04:21 AM
I certainly agree with that. The same would apply to the Bridge-Tunnel as suggested two posts up the thread (I've only been that way once anyway simply because of where it goes).
The CBBT is $14 - $18 one-way. And while you only pay the toll for the facility itself, you also pay to drive up the Eastern Shore entirely and bypass the mess that I-95 is. I-95 is $40 - $50. Some people would do it - but I certainly wouldn't pay that much. The NJTP is $10 max, and the TX-130 road is $20. Both go at least 90 miles. The HO/T lanes go a mere 40, and I would not pay $40 - 50 for that. That's over $1 per mile. TX-130 is 22 cents per mile, and the NJTP is less. Like I said, I understand the reasons why, but I'm just saying for myself, that's way too much. Maybe they should've built the HO/T lanes with 3 lanes in each direction? Charge a more reasonable price?

Then again 30,000 vehicles per day travel through the Chesapeake Expressway every summer Saturday and have no problem plunking down $8 one-way to travel 6 miles. I guess a lot of people will do anything to get to their destination faster. I would, but not for that much.

BrianP

I haven't heard about changing any existing free lanes on I-270 to toll lanes.  I've only heard about adding toll lanes. The notion of changing existing lanes would have even less support than adding lanes IMO.

sprjus4

Quote from: BrianP on June 12, 2019, 10:17:10 AM
I haven't heard about changing any existing free lanes on I-270 to toll lanes.  I've only heard about adding toll lanes. The notion of changing existing lanes would have even less support than adding lanes IMO.
The typical section "before" had 3 "thru" lanes, 2 "local" lanes, both divided by a barrier, and 1 HOV lane in each direction. The proposed section showed 5 general purpose lanes with no barrier, and 2 Toll Lanes in each direction.

Beltway

#90
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 09:45:32 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 12:52:56 AM
Those highways don't have 6 or 8 lanes of toll-free general purpose lanes, do they?
You could argue at least 60 miles of the New Jersey Turnpike has I-295 toll-free parallel to it.

The by far busiest part of the NJTP doesn't.

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 09:45:32 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 12:52:56 AM
I don't mind paying $30+ one-way to use I-95 and I-495 HOT lanes during peak hours for these inter-state trips, and they wouldn't be that expensive at peak hours if the total demand wasn't so high that those toll levels are needed to keep the lanes congestion-free.
For those 40 miles, maybe up to $20, but I wouldn't pay any more. Basically, the way I look at it is why can I pay $20 in Texas and drive 85 mph for 40 miles and 80 mph for another 40 miles and bypass Austin completely, but in North Virginia I pay $40 and get to drive 65 mph for 40 miles, and still get dumped in congestion on either ends?

Apples and oranges comparisons.  For one thing my peak hours trip on NB I-95 yesterday morning cost $16 and it was well worth it.  Variable tolls are designed to manage congestion and keep the lanes free flowing.  If they weren't so popular then the tolls might only be $5 or so.

Not everybody thinks like you.  You have the toll-free GP lanes available to you.

The demand is very high, and that leads to high tolls in peak periods, and that demand will grow when the I-395 HOT lanes open soon.

And of course vehicles with 3 or more persons ride toll-free at all times, something else that your highways don't do, in addition to the high levels of slugging (casual car pooling) that exist on I-95 and I-395.

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 09:45:32 AM
I understand the reason as you mentioned, though when making that financial decision myself, I wouldn't do it. I get way better value in Texas than here. And a nicer road quite frankly.

Then why don't you move to Texas?

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 09:45:32 AM
If VDOT and MDSHA got serious about constructing an 80 mile toll road stretching from I-95 at Fredericksburg to I-70 at Frederick roughly paralleling US-17 and US-15, I'd be on board. But the last mention has been in the 90s, and nothing got further than a study. It's a rural highway, it's not that hard to construct. They did it in Texas with TX-130 in 2012. They did it with 98 miles of new location toll-free I-69 in Indiana in 2012 and 2016.

I read thru the DEIS for the Western Transportation Corridor in the late 1990s, and building such a highway in Northern Virginia is quite a bit more complicated than you think, with the number of major and minor historical sites that are in the corridor, the number of river and stream crossings, and the number of wetlands areas.  A lot more than you might think.

In any event, that is a whole separate issue, and I have supported that highway in the past.  VDOT engaged in serious studies and Maryland wanted nothing to do with it, which killed the concept of a Washington Bypass.
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sprjus4

#91
Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
Not everybody thinks like you.  You have the toll-free GP lanes available to you.
And not everybody thinks like you. You have the HO/T lanes available to you.

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
The demand is very high, and that leads to high tolls in peak periods, and that demand will grow when the I-395 HOT lanes open soon.
The demand is much higher in the GP lanes, and VDOT has not done any massive improvements to those -south of Woodbridge- in decades.

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
Then why don't you move to Texas?
Oh boy, I'd love to get out of this state. But you think it's just that easy to pack up and move?

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
I read thru the DEIS for the Western Transportation Corridor in the late 1990s, and building such a highway in Northern Virginia is quite a bit more complicated than you think, with the number of major and minor historical sites that are in the corridor, the number of river and stream crossings, and the number of wetlands areas.  A lot more than you might think.
Okay - it may cost more. Doesn't make it impossible. For 80 miles, it could be $5.6 billion for $70 million per mile. Costs split between Virginia and Maryland, part funded by traditional funding methods, and the rest covered by tolling. $20 one-way.

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
In any event, that is a whole separate issue, and I have supported that highway in the past.  VDOT engaged in serious studies and Maryland wanted nothing to do with it, which killed the concept of a Washington Bypass.
Maryland is a joke. But they'll spend $9 billion on Toll Lanes not even available to carpools.

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
And of course vehicles with 3 or more persons ride toll-free at all times, something else that your highways don't do, in addition to the high levels of slugging (casual car pooling) that exist on I-95 and I-395.
Tell that to Maryland. And does everybody traveling up and down the east coast conveniently own an E-ZPass Flex?

Jmiles32

Quote from: famartin on June 11, 2019, 09:55:23 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2019, 09:50:35 PM
So not only is Maryland doing the section with the least benefit, they're actually removing free capacity from what I gather.  Unless I'm misinterpreting something, that might be enough to turn me against the whole project.
It had not been my understanding that they were removing free capacity, but if so, I would also feel likewise.

It was my understanding that the preferred I-270 scenario would be similar to Virginia's I-66 project in the fact that one current HOV lane (so not really free capacity during rush hour) would be converted and one new HOT lane would be added (using the inside shoulder). It also wouldn't seem likely that a simple lane repurposing would require the taking of up to 234 pieces of property. No idea if the current THRU and Local lane setup stays.
https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/Maryland-governor-s-plan-to-add-toll-lanes-to-13941541.php
QuoteSo far, the state's study has found up to 34 homes and four businesses, almost all in Montgomery County, would be destroyed to widen the Beltway, along with pieces of another 1,262 properties. The study of the lower part of I-270, south of I-370, so far has found no homes or businesses that would be destroyed and up to 234 pieces of property that would need to be taken.
Aspiring Transportation Planner at Virginia Tech. Go Hokies!

Beltway

#93
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 10:30:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
Not everybody thinks like you.  You have the toll-free GP lanes available to you.
And not everybody thinks like you. You have the HO/T lanes available to you.

I'm not the one complaining about what roadways are available.

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 10:30:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
The demand is very high, and that leads to high tolls in peak periods, and that demand will grow when the I-395 HOT lanes open soon.
The demand is much higher in the GP lanes, and VDOT has not done any massive improvements to those -south of Woodbridge- in decades.

I have spoken in favor of 8-lane widening, so that is not an issue with me.

Even with 8 GP lanes (4 each way), there will still be very high demand in the HOT lanes, even more with the soon completion of the I-395 HOT lanes and the 10-mile extension to Fredericksburg.

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 10:30:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
Then why don't you move to Texas?
Oh boy, I'd love to get out of this state. But you think it's just that easy to pack up and move?

How about the S.F. Bay Area?  I don't travel there but reports from residents on other roads forums say that they have at least 200 miles of freeways that have worse problems than the D.C. area, actually sounds much worse.

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 10:30:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
I read thru the DEIS for the Western Transportation Corridor in the late 1990s, and building such a highway in Northern Virginia is quite a bit more complicated than you think, with the number of major and minor historical sites that are in the corridor, the number of river and stream crossings, and the number of wetlands areas.  A lot more than you might think.
Okay - it may cost more. Doesn't make it impossible. For 80 miles, it could be $5.6 billion for $70 million per mile. Costs split between Virginia and Maryland, part funded by traditional funding methods, and the rest covered by tolling. $20 one-way.

You need to make the case to Maryland.
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sprjus4

Quote from: Jmiles32 on June 12, 2019, 10:36:53 AM
Quote from: famartin on June 11, 2019, 09:55:23 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2019, 09:50:35 PM
So not only is Maryland doing the section with the least benefit, they're actually removing free capacity from what I gather.  Unless I'm misinterpreting something, that might be enough to turn me against the whole project.
It had not been my understanding that they were removing free capacity, but if so, I would also feel likewise.

It was my understanding that the preferred I-270 scenario would be similar to Virginia's I-66 project in the fact that one current HOV lane (so not really free capacity during rush hour) would be converted and one new HOT lane would be added (using the inside shoulder). It also wouldn't seem likely that a simple lane repurposing would require the taking of up to 234 pieces of property. No idea if the current THRU and Local lane setup stays.
https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/Maryland-governor-s-plan-to-add-toll-lanes-to-13941541.php
QuoteSo far, the state's study has found up to 34 homes and four businesses, almost all in Montgomery County, would be destroyed to widen the Beltway, along with pieces of another 1,262 properties. The study of the lower part of I-270, south of I-370, so far has found no homes or businesses that would be destroyed and up to 234 pieces of property that would need to be taken.
https://495-270-p3.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/I-495-I-270-Prelim-Screened-Alts.pdf
All of the alternatives involve removing the local-thru config. The ETL alternative, which it seems MDOT is going after, does retain the HOV lane though along with 2 new Toll Lanes. But I-495 won't have that benefit.

1995hoo

#95
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 10:12:16 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 12, 2019, 10:04:21 AM
I certainly agree with that. The same would apply to the Bridge-Tunnel as suggested two posts up the thread (I've only been that way once anyway simply because of where it goes).
The CBBT is $14 - $18 one-way. And while you only pay the toll for the facility itself, you also pay to drive up the Eastern Shore entirely and bypass the mess that I-95 is. I-95 is $40 - $50. Some people would do it - but I certainly wouldn't pay that much. The NJTP is $10 max, and the TX-130 road is $20. Both go at least 90 miles. The HO/T lanes go a mere 40, and I would not pay $40 - 50 for that. That's over $1 per mile. TX-130 is 22 cents per mile, and the NJTP is less. Like I said, I understand the reasons why, but I'm just saying for myself, that's way too much. Maybe they should've built the HO/T lanes with 3 lanes in each direction? Charge a more reasonable price?

Then again 30,000 vehicles per day travel through the Chesapeake Expressway every summer Saturday and have no problem plunking down $8 one-way to travel 6 miles. I guess a lot of people will do anything to get to their destination faster. I would, but not for that much.

It seems to me your comments are more or less underscoring exactly what the point of the variable tolling system is! The toll rises as more people enter the HO/T lanes with the intent being that as the toll rises, more and more people will say "it's too much, I won't pay that," which in turn means fewer people entering the lanes such that traffic keeps moving. In my observation on the Beltway (because I use that way more often than I use I-95 south of Springfield), the system seems to work pretty well, as the only times I've gone less than 65—70 mph in the Beltway HO/T lanes were because of an accident slowing traffic or because of bad weather affecting traction and visibility. Of course every individual has a different idea of what constitutes "too high" a toll, which is also part of the point.

It's funny, though, reading your comment makes me think back to the 1980s when the Dulles Toll Road opened between the Beltway and Route 28 (Sully Road). At the time, the toll was 50¢ at the main toll plaza in Tysons and 25¢ at the ramp tolls, except for Route 28 where it was 35¢. The road was about 13 miles long. Everyone said it was insanely expensive and a lot of people didn't want to use it. The point of reference back then for it being expensive was, as with your comment, the Jersey Turnpike, on which back then, if I recall correctly, it cost around $1.30 to go from the Delaware Memorial Bridge to Exit 10 for the Outerbridge or $1.80 to continue up to Exit 13 for the Goethals Bridge. (And, of course, there were people who felt those tolls were too high and so opted for I-295.) I don't recall all the tolls from back in that era, but I remember the Delaware Memorial Bridge being 60¢ each way.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

sprjus4

#96
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 12, 2019, 10:53:28 AM
It seems to me your comments are more or less underscoring exactly what the point of the variable tolling system is! The toll rises as more people enter the HO/T lanes with the intent being that as the toll rises, more and more people will say "it's too much, I won't pay that," which in turn means fewer people entering the lanes such that traffic keeps moving.
Sounds like a great system. It keeps people free-flowing at highway speeds and makes sure there's no congestion.... but in reality it pushes more people into the general purpose lanes clogging those even more. And VDOT doesn't seem to have any interest working to fix those and widen them. Just giving the job to a private company to build toll lanes in the median.

Look, I'm not saying don't build the HO/T lanes at all. They are nice to have. It's just that VDOT needs to widen I-95 and build a fixed-toll bypass around the entire area, routing thru traffic around. And if that thru traffic is HOV and doesn't want to pay the toll, then by all means come through DC and use the HO/T lanes for free. But a bypass would get a significant amount of traffic off I-95.

What bugs me the most is down here in Hampton Roads, they are expanding the HRBT for $4 billion using taxpayer dollars, and only building HO/T lanes. Same with the High Rise Bridge expansion by adding a HO/T lane. So we have to pay to use what our tax dollars already funded. Those tax dollars should have funded at least 1 additional free lane on both the HRBT and High Rise Bridge corridor. At least the HO/T lanes are privately funded.

BrianP

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: BrianP on June 12, 2019, 10:17:10 AM
I haven't heard about changing any existing free lanes on I-270 to toll lanes.  I've only heard about adding toll lanes. The notion of changing existing lanes would have even less support than adding lanes IMO.
The typical section "before" had 3 "thru" lanes, 2 "local" lanes, both divided by a barrier, and 1 HOV lane in each direction. The proposed section showed 5 general purpose lanes with no barrier, and 2 Toll Lanes in each direction.
Quotehttps://495-270-p3.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/I-495-I-270-Prelim-Screened-Alts.pdf
All of the alternatives involve removing the local-thru config. The ETL alternative, which it seems MDOT is going after, does retain the HOV lane though along with 2 new Toll Lanes. But I-495 won't have that benefit.
Thanks.  I haven't come across that.  And reporting has been vague. 

It won't be easy for I-270 since pretty much all of the overpasses will have to be replaced.  e.g.
https://goo.gl/maps/YRDwP3WTiMz2yRiS8
And that may include the bridge that is currently under construction at the new exit 12. So it's not just removing the barriers kind of easy change. 

Also the state says they won't take houses.  Well they would need some kind of two level highway (elevated or depressed) to add lanes here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1273322,-77.2029854,197m/data=!3m1!1e3
Which is why I think local officials and residents don't trust the governor.  I would imagine that they think instead of such a drastic measure as a two level highway that houses would be taken. 

Also setups show in that document show what could be the setup of lanes between I-370 and I-495.  The lane setup north of I-370 would be smaller so I'd be curious where the footprint would shrink. It would probably shrink at the same places as now.  I would imagine the footprint would dwindle down to a 2-2-2-2 setup by the time you reach I-70. 

The new bridge in Clarksburg for exit 18 looks like it could handle 5 lanes in each direction with whichever of the specific setups is chosen. 
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2314369,-77.2849412,3a,75y,351.85h,90.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOQd0pxrfXXeY17zr5fjX_A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

sprjus4

Quote from: BrianP on June 12, 2019, 12:05:24 PM
And reporting has been vague.
Because sadly the reporters never look at the specific details. They just say major construction project coming, expect delays, and capacity will be added when done. They may explain what a toll lane is but that's it. No specific details.

Quote from: BrianP on June 12, 2019, 12:05:24 PM
It won't be easy for I-270 since pretty much all of the overpasses will have to be replaced.  e.g.
https://goo.gl/maps/YRDwP3WTiMz2yRiS8
And that may include the bridge that is currently under construction at the new exit 12. So it's not just removing the barriers kind of easy change. 
All of the bridges on both I-495 and I-270 will have to be replaced no matter what option chosen. They're putting 4-lanes with full shoulders in the place where there's currently a narrow barrier. The whole footprint has to be expanded. The same happened on I-495 in Virginia.

Quote from: BrianP on June 12, 2019, 12:05:24 PM
Also the state says they won't take houses.  Well they would need some kind of two level highway (elevated or depressed) to add lanes here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1273322,-77.2029854,197m/data=!3m1!1e3
Which is why I think local officials and residents don't trust the governor.  I would imagine that they think instead of such a drastic measure as a two level highway that houses would be taken.
Based on Virginia's HO/T lanes and considering 6 lanes plus 2 toll lanes in each direction, roughly a 270 foot footprint is needed. That could fit through that area, just with narrow buffers. That's the land that they're talking about taking. No homes should be needed to get taken, nor should a 2-level highway be needed.

Quote from: BrianP on June 12, 2019, 12:05:24 PM
Also setups show in that document show what could be the setup of lanes between I-370 and I-495.  The lane setup north of I-370 would be smaller so I'd be curious where the footprint would shrink. It would probably shrink at the same places as now.  I would imagine the footprint would dwindle down to a 2-2-2-2 setup by the time you reach I-70. 
Currently the Toll Lanes are only being built up to I-370. Nothing north of there is getting built for the time being, though it's on the long range plan. Probably just 2 Toll lanes with 2-3 general purpose lanes.

goobnav

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 12, 2019, 09:45:32 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 12:52:56 AM
Those highways don't have 6 or 8 lanes of toll-free general purpose lanes, do they?
You could argue at least 60 miles of the New Jersey Turnpike has I-295 toll-free parallel to it. Most of that I-295 stretch is 6-lanes. You could argue also TX-130 has I-35 through Austin as a toll-free alternative. It's actually the better route during non-peak hours. It's 25 miles shorter, and mostly 75 mph except around Downtown itself. During peak hours though, I'd gladly pay $20 with toll-by-plate to bypass that congestion on the TX-130 toll road, even if it's 25 miles additional. Austin has some horrible traffic on I-35. The only issue that part of the 80 mph toll road is becoming engulfed with suburban sprawl from Austin, and is now a commuter road. Recurring delays occur during peak hours, though it's significantly better than I-35. It's currently being expanded to 6-lanes though, so that should help ease that congestion.

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 12:52:56 AM
I don't mind paying $30+ one-way to use I-95 and I-495 HOT lanes during peak hours for these inter-state trips, and they wouldn't be that expensive at peak hours if the total demand wasn't so high that those toll levels are needed to keep the lanes congestion-free.
For those 40 miles, maybe up to $20, but I wouldn't pay any more. Basically, the way I look at it is why can I pay $20 in Texas and drive 85 mph for 40 miles and 80 mph for another 40 miles and bypass Austin completely, but in North Virginia I pay $40 and get to drive 65 mph for 40 miles, and still get dumped in congestion on either ends?

I understand the reason as you mentioned, though when making that financial decision myself, I wouldn't do it. I get way better value in Texas than here. And a nicer road quite frankly.

If VDOT and MDSHA got serious about constructing an 80 mile toll road stretching from I-95 at Fredericksburg to I-70 at Frederick roughly paralleling US-17 and US-15, I'd be on board. But the last mention has been in the 90s, and nothing got further than a study. It's a rural highway, it's not that hard to construct. They did it in Texas with TX-130 in 2012. They did it with 98 miles of new location toll-free I-69 in Indiana in 2012 and 2016.

Quote from: Beltway on June 12, 2019, 12:52:56 AM
Coming back from the Maryland Eastern Shore today, I decided to try US-301.  Tuesday, peak hours, fine weather, no problem, eh?  It was -horrible-, rolling backup after rolling backup, sometimes jammed for a mile or two, at least 60 signals.  It took at least 60 minutes longer than I-95's projected time which per radio traffic reports had no major problems.  Not toll-free either, $6.00 one-way SB toll at the Nice Memorial Bridge.
I can agree, US-301 isn't that fun. I've done it many times in my times up that way. Then again, sometimes it's still better than I-95 if you're -not- using the HO/T lanes.

If you're heading to the northwest, US-17 from Fredericksburg to Marshall then I-66 West to I-81 North is a good alternative to I-95, I-495, and I-270. US-17 is mostly 55-60 mph and free-flowing rural highway. A nice scenic route through the country as well.

Quote from: goobnav on June 12, 2019, 09:31:52 AM
$26, $18 one way on the CBBT is not worth it.  Can still take the east side of the Beltway and deal with DC and and then Baltimore, on 695, traffic than taking that amount for a toll.  Just have to drive through the metro area either really early or after 10 am.
Without traffic from Norfolk to the New Jersey Turnpike, it's 5 hours 11 minutes via I-64, I-295, and I-95 and 330 miles. It's 4 hours 46 minutes via I-64, US-13, US-113, and DE-1 and 261 miles. During off-peak hours, that's 25 minutes of additional traveling and 70 additional miles. During off-peak hours, if the distance and times were closer, I may consider it, since I'd prefer to stick to freeways as much as possible. But considering the usual traffic congestion in DC, that time can easily increase to 6 hours without using HO/T lanes. Not to mention, US-13 and US-113 is usually an easy drive, and can usually get up to 65 mph with no issues on the rural stretches. And the northern 50 miles are the DE-1 65 mph toll freeway, which the toll isn't higher than $6.

I find US-13 and US-113 to be more of a relaxing trip, less stressful, light traffic, etc. than I-64 and I-95, especially if there's congestion, which is hard to avoid. Fastest route, 70 miles shorter, etc. And not to mention the frequent recurring congestion on I-64 and I-95 in rural areas.

Yeah, don't have the problem of having to drive west to go north, so going up the Delmarva is still not worth the CBBT toll, works for you being that the bay is your obstacle.  Just like the Mixing Bowl years, will adjust routes and timing to not get caught in this mess to come.
Life is a highway and I drive it all night long!



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