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Author Topic: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program  (Read 31299 times)

cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #275 on: May 17, 2021, 02:45:47 PM »

Didnít say it was going to happen. Just said it was the most in need. As mentioned a few days ago, if they fixed the section south of the 270 spur to the bridge, the 270-95 segment would become the hands-down worst part of the beltway, and only when that happens is there any hope (albeit not much) that it could get remedied.

There are other things that can be done to make this part of the Capital Beltway work better.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #276 on: May 22, 2021, 09:39:11 PM »

Washington Post: A Metro ĎBeltway Lineí? Transit advocates say a new American Legion Bridge should leave room for rail.

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As Maryland seeks companies to replace the traffic-clogged American Legion Bridge, transit advocates are calling the stateís plan shortsighted for not requiring that a new span be able to carry a rail line to Northern Virginia.

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Any bridge built to last up to 100 years, they say, should allow for the possibility that trains could someday circle the nationís capital through its ever-growing suburbs, alongside the Capital Beltway. Long-term hopes for what some call a Metro ďBeltway LineĒ were incorporated into the Woodrow Wilson Bridge when it was rebuilt with room for rail on the Beltwayís southern end in the mid-2000s.

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Precluding that possibility on the highwayís other Potomac River crossing, advocates say, would consign many residents to driving or riding buses for decades. They say it also would miss a critical opportunity for a direct rail link between Montgomery and Fairfax counties ó the regionís two most populous suburbs and biggest job centers outside downtown Washington.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #277 on: May 22, 2021, 10:01:25 PM »

I mean, it doesnít seem like a poor idea, given how relevant commuter rail / subway is in Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland.
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famartin

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #278 on: May 23, 2021, 01:09:41 AM »

I mean, it doesnít seem like a poor idea, given how relevant commuter rail / subway is in Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland.

I suppose some might consider PG as southern MD (not many) but I donít know anyone who considers Montgomery as southern MD.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #279 on: May 23, 2021, 01:31:48 AM »

I was kind of just referring to the whole DC area in general. I suppose itís not ďsouthernĒ Maryland but the point still stands.
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famartin

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #280 on: May 23, 2021, 02:05:24 AM »

I was kind of just referring to the whole DC area in general. I suppose itís not ďsouthernĒ Maryland but the point still stands.

Yeah, but you couldíve been both more accurate and saved characters by simply writing ďDC metroĒ instead of ďnorthern Virginia/southern MarylandĒ  ;-)

And I couldíve too by simply not picking this nit  :-D
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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #281 on: May 23, 2021, 08:36:27 AM »

I mean, it doesnít seem like a poor idea, given how relevant commuter rail / subway is in Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland.

I suppose some might consider PG as southern MD (not many) but I donít know anyone who considers Montgomery as southern MD.

IMO Southern Maryland is Calvert, Charles and St. Mary's Counties. I suppose it might be possible to consider nearby areas of Prince George's and Anne Arundel Counties as also Southern Maryland, but that is not usually done.
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famartin

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #282 on: May 23, 2021, 09:31:11 AM »

I mean, it doesnít seem like a poor idea, given how relevant commuter rail / subway is in Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland.

I suppose some might consider PG as southern MD (not many) but I donít know anyone who considers Montgomery as southern MD.

IMO Southern Maryland is Calvert, Charles and St. Mary's Counties. I suppose it might be possible to consider nearby areas of Prince George's and Anne Arundel Counties as also Southern Maryland, but that is not usually done.
Your interpretation is the same as mine.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #283 on: May 23, 2021, 11:07:51 AM »

While it sounds good and feels good to build a bridge for a possible rail line, without any sort of other plans for a future line, the bridge will just sit there.  They're better off building a bridge in the futurr to meet the needs of that line.
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odditude

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #284 on: May 23, 2021, 02:03:46 PM »

While it sounds good and feels good to build a bridge for a possible rail line, without any sort of other plans for a future line, the bridge will just sit there.  They're better off building a bridge in the future to meet the needs of that line.

i'd say both options (with and without rail provisions) should be explored and quoted, and the decision should be made from there. while this is truly a WAG, i wouldn't be surprised if the cost of material for the rail accommodation would be secondary to the costs of additional land acquisition and labor.

those additional costs might make it a nonstarter; on the other hand, if the cost increase is relatively minor, it may be worth the investment.
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bluecountry

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #285 on: May 24, 2021, 04:55:05 PM »

Are they at least going to fix I-495 inner loop between spur 270 and 270 @ Wisconsin Ave where it goes down to just two thru lanes?
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famartin

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #286 on: May 24, 2021, 05:24:17 PM »

Are they at least going to fix I-495 inner loop between spur 270 and 270 @ Wisconsin Ave where it goes down to just two thru lanes?
Thatís a fairly short (but still highly detrimental) segment between the ramp to 355 and the merge from 270. And, no.
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bluecountry

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #287 on: May 26, 2021, 11:10:48 AM »

Are they at least going to fix I-495 inner loop between spur 270 and 270 @ Wisconsin Ave where it goes down to just two thru lanes?
Thatís a fairly short (but still highly detrimental) segment between the ramp to 355 and the merge from 270. And, no.
OMFG, what stupidity.
That causes SO much jams.
How can they ignore that bottleneck?
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mrsman

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #288 on: May 26, 2021, 02:49:40 PM »

Are they at least going to fix I-495 inner loop between spur 270 and 270 @ Wisconsin Ave where it goes down to just two thru lanes?
Thatís a fairly short (but still highly detrimental) segment between the ramp to 355 and the merge from 270. And, no.
OMFG, what stupidity.
That causes SO much jams.
How can they ignore that bottleneck?

I don't think it's a qn of ignoring the bottleneck, but the reality that the bottleneck cannot be fixed unless more of the mainline is widened as well.

3 lanes of SB 270 and 3 lanes of EB 495 merge into 4 lanes of EB 495.  To add more to the mix, there are also on-ramps from MD-355 to both the left side and right side of the Beltway as well. 

If the Beltway to the east of this point were 6 lanes EB, then it is easy 3 lanes of 270 will join with 3 lanes from Virginia to continue eastbound.  If there were 5 lanes, you could have 270 as is (2 lanes to EB 495, 1 lane to 355 south) joining with the 3 lanes from Virginia to continue eastbound.  But with only 4 lanes, both the 270 and the 495 have to taper down to 2 lanes to make the merger work.

So while I agree that this bottleneck needs addressed, the only way to address it would be a widening of the EB Beltway to 5 lanes for a bit to the east of the interchange.  Ideally, it would be widened all the way to the bridge over the Northwest branch (so that you have at least 5 lanes all the way to 95), but it would seem to be necessary at minimum to at least Connecticut Ave.  THis would need to be done independent of any toll lane addition.
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bluecountry

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #289 on: May 29, 2021, 08:54:56 PM »

Are they at least going to fix I-495 inner loop between spur 270 and 270 @ Wisconsin Ave where it goes down to just two thru lanes?
Thatís a fairly short (but still highly detrimental) segment between the ramp to 355 and the merge from 270. And, no.
OMFG, what stupidity.
That causes SO much jams.
How can they ignore that bottleneck?

I don't think it's a qn of ignoring the bottleneck, but the reality that the bottleneck cannot be fixed unless more of the mainline is widened as well.

3 lanes of SB 270 and 3 lanes of EB 495 merge into 4 lanes of EB 495.  To add more to the mix, there are also on-ramps from MD-355 to both the left side and right side of the Beltway as well. 

If the Beltway to the east of this point were 6 lanes EB, then it is easy 3 lanes of 270 will join with 3 lanes from Virginia to continue eastbound.  If there were 5 lanes, you could have 270 as is (2 lanes to EB 495, 1 lane to 355 south) joining with the 3 lanes from Virginia to continue eastbound.  But with only 4 lanes, both the 270 and the 495 have to taper down to 2 lanes to make the merger work.

So while I agree that this bottleneck needs addressed, the only way to address it would be a widening of the EB Beltway to 5 lanes for a bit to the east of the interchange.  Ideally, it would be widened all the way to the bridge over the Northwest branch (so that you have at least 5 lanes all the way to 95), but it would seem to be necessary at minimum to at least Connecticut Ave.  THis would need to be done independent of any toll lane addition.
Should be part of the project.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #290 on: May 31, 2021, 07:42:21 AM »

[This popped up this morning on the Post Web site, but it is from 2020]

Washington Post op-ed: Pandemic aside, Maryland needs to widen I-270 and I-495

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The year 2020 has brought many unexpected and mostly unwelcome changes to the D.C. area. However, despite the uncertainty and confusion that have resulted, there has been one unfortunate constant: dithering by our elected officials on traffic solutions.

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The latest in our traffic-plagued saga is the publishing and bickering over the environmental impact study on the widening of Interstate 270 and Interstate 495 proposed by Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan (R). The nearly 18,000-page study is not only a mind-numbing read, but its bureaucratic red tape and environmentalist pandering are also insulting. To give context, the U.S. tax code is approximately 6,500 pages long. Are we to believe a 40-mile stretch of roadway is more complex than the entire U.S. tax code?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 07:54:44 AM by cpzilliacus »
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Old Dominionite

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #291 on: May 31, 2021, 09:25:09 AM »

Itís in Marylandís best interest to ensure diverse and robust transportation options into Virginia. Northern Virginia has the regionís largest concentration of jobs, and will likely have the lionís share of future job growth.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #292 on: May 31, 2021, 10:25:39 AM »

Itís in Marylandís best interest to ensure diverse and robust transportation options into Virginia. Northern Virginia has the regionís largest concentration of jobs, and will likely have the lionís share of future job growth.

It's really more beneficial if Maryland could build up their industrial and commercial office space to keep Marylanders in Maryland. Lots of good tax revenue there that doesn't burden schools and services.
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ran4sh

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #293 on: May 31, 2021, 01:50:28 PM »

This. Work-based development (commercial & industrial) is better for a state's tax revenue than residential development. It's in Maryland's best interest to do what it can to get job growth of their own.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #294 on: May 31, 2021, 03:31:56 PM »

Itís in Marylandís best interest to ensure diverse and robust transportation options into Virginia. Northern Virginia has the regionís largest concentration of jobs, and will likely have the lionís share of future job growth.

More to the point, Virginia has two of the three airports in the region, including the one that has the largest selection of flights to and from Europe and Asia as well as the best selection of flights to the West Coast.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #295 on: May 31, 2021, 03:35:20 PM »

It's really more beneficial if Maryland could build up their industrial and commercial office space to keep Marylanders in Maryland. Lots of good tax revenue there that doesn't burden schools and services.

Maryland has been losing jobs to Northern Virginia for decades.  In large part the anti-growth and slow-growth and no-growth policies of Montgomery County, Maryland are to blame, along with a robust anti-development and NIMBY cottage industry in the county.  One example:  excluding the several small municipalities where the county does not control development approvals, there are no Royal Farm (based in Maryland), Wawa or Sheetz stores in the county, though they can be found in counties that directly border Montgomery County.  Aided and abetted by county policies, 7-11 has a de-facto monopoly on convenience stores.

But inadequate airport ground access is a big problem in much of the Maryland suburbs of D.C., and that deters employers from locating there or adding jobs there.  Combine that with a lack of freeway access to the downtown area of Washington (compare and contrast with Northern Virginia, where there are two Interstates and a federal parkway that functions as an expressway serving downtown D.C.).  Many will claim that the Metro system is a substitute for those freeways, but location decisions by private employers tell a different story.   All of this is summarized in a phrase - "the East West Divide."
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 03:44:00 PM by cpzilliacus »
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famartin

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #296 on: June 01, 2021, 11:17:11 AM »

Itís in Marylandís best interest to ensure diverse and robust transportation options into Virginia. Northern Virginia has the regionís largest concentration of jobs, and will likely have the lionís share of future job growth.

It's really more beneficial if Maryland could build up their industrial and commercial office space to keep Marylanders in Maryland. Lots of good tax revenue there that doesn't burden schools and services.

This. Yes, that's one reason Maryland doesn't want to build better connections. There's already plenty commuting into NoVA for work, they don't want to encourage more.
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famartin

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #297 on: June 01, 2021, 11:18:09 AM »

Itís in Marylandís best interest to ensure diverse and robust transportation options into Virginia. Northern Virginia has the regionís largest concentration of jobs, and will likely have the lionís share of future job growth.

More to the point, Virginia has two of the three airports in the region, including the one that has the largest selection of flights to and from Europe and Asia as well as the best selection of flights to the West Coast.

While that's true, you won't see signs for those airports in Maryland. You'll just see placards for BWI all over the place. That in itself makes it obvious what airport they are supporting.
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famartin

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #298 on: June 01, 2021, 11:21:11 AM »

It's really more beneficial if Maryland could build up their industrial and commercial office space to keep Marylanders in Maryland. Lots of good tax revenue there that doesn't burden schools and services.

Maryland has been losing jobs to Northern Virginia for decades.  In large part the anti-growth and slow-growth and no-growth policies of Montgomery County, Maryland are to blame, along with a robust anti-development and NIMBY cottage industry in the county.  One example:  excluding the several small municipalities where the county does not control development approvals, there are no Royal Farm (based in Maryland), Wawa or Sheetz stores in the county, though they can be found in counties that directly border Montgomery County.  Aided and abetted by county policies, 7-11 has a de-facto monopoly on convenience stores.

But inadequate airport ground access is a big problem in much of the Maryland suburbs of D.C., and that deters employers from locating there or adding jobs there.  Combine that with a lack of freeway access to the downtown area of Washington (compare and contrast with Northern Virginia, where there are two Interstates and a federal parkway that functions as an expressway serving downtown D.C.).  Many will claim that the Metro system is a substitute for those freeways, but location decisions by private employers tell a different story.   All of this is summarized in a phrase - "the East West Divide."

Montgomery County is both the most populous and most affluent county in Maryland, so they do have the option to be picky. That said, the latter title may soon be taken by Howard.
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jmacswimmer

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #299 on: June 01, 2021, 11:38:33 AM »

Itís in Marylandís best interest to ensure diverse and robust transportation options into Virginia. Northern Virginia has the regionís largest concentration of jobs, and will likely have the lionís share of future job growth.
More to the point, Virginia has two of the three airports in the region, including the one that has the largest selection of flights to and from Europe and Asia as well as the best selection of flights to the West Coast.
While that's true, you won't see signs for those airports in Maryland. You'll just see placards for BWI all over the place. That in itself makes it obvious what airport they are supporting.

To be fair, Virginia does the same thing with only signing IAD & DCA - I don't believe there's a single sign for BWI across the Potomac.

And given BWI's rare status amongst US airports of being owned & operated at the State level, MDOT certainly has a vested interest in using its roadways (thru SHA & MDTA) to promote its airport (thru MAA) - and you're right, they certainly do wherever possible!
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