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Madison Area

Started by peterj920, February 24, 2019, 09:44:39 PM

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peterj920

Started this thread to talk about projects and traffic in Madison.

With The Beltline frequently backing up westbound due to congestion at the US 151/US 18 Verona Rd Interchage, should the DOT expedite phase 3 of the Verona Rd Project to provide free flow ramps? 


mgk920

We've been advocating that for years.

Mike

TheHighwayMan3561

Why didn't they do that to begin with? Why waste all that money on that stupid SPUI with the three left turn lanes (that still backs up onto the westbound Beltline) if they were going to make it a free flow eventually?
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

froggie

IIRC, it was a combination of cost and ROW issues in the southeast corner.  And unless WisDOT has finished up the construction on Verona Rd (US 18/151), that may be contributing to the above-mentioned backups onto the Beltline.

mgk920

Quote from: froggie on February 25, 2019, 09:30:24 AM
IIRC, it was a combination of cost and ROW issues in the southeast corner.  And unless WisDOT has finished up the construction on Verona Rd (US 18/151), that may be contributing to the above-mentioned backups onto the Beltline.

Also, remember that this is in Madison, WI.

'nuff said.

:rolleyes:

Mike

MantyMadTown

I feel like stage 3 is something WISDOT should've done in the first place. Now that they've done stage 1 and stage 2, they're going to have to redo everything they've done before on Verona Rd southwest of the interchange.

Here's the map for stage 3 if anyone wants to look at it:
https://projects.511wi.gov/veronard/wp-content/uploads/sites/143/map-altstage3.pdf
Forget the I-41 haters

SSOWorld

I'll be dead before this happens.
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

mgk920

Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 25, 2019, 05:34:22 PM
I feel like stage 3 is something WISDOT should've done in the first place. Now that they've done stage 1 and stage 2, they're going to have to redo everything they've done before on Verona Rd southwest of the interchange.

Here's the map for stage 3 if anyone wants to look at it:
https://projects.511wi.gov/veronard/wp-content/uploads/sites/143/map-altstage3.pdf

Including that super-massive overcrossing that is in front of the Home Depot.  I chalk this up to the NIMBYs and enviro-whackos who are endemic in that general area.  I fully agree, this should have been done in the first place.

:banghead:

Mike

Roadguy

Quote from: SSOWorld on February 25, 2019, 09:28:50 PM
I'll be dead before this happens.

Second that statement.  When they proceeded with phase 1 & 2 it basically eliminated a chance in the future to proceed with phase 3.

Another issue is the way the cities of Madison and Fitchburg allowed for the areas around Verona Road to develop.  Intersections right next to other intersections, no attempts to control nearby access... they call them planners but it amazing how little foresight so many of them have.  It should be logical to not place two heavily used intersections within 200' of one another (frontage road and heavily used state highway) but they clearly missed the memo on that one.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: Roadguy on February 26, 2019, 03:59:40 AM
Quote from: SSOWorld on February 25, 2019, 09:28:50 PM
I'll be dead before this happens.

Second that statement.  When they proceeded with phase 1 & 2 it basically eliminated a chance in the future to proceed with phase 3.

Another issue is the way the cities of Madison and Fitchburg allowed for the areas around Verona Road to develop.  Intersections right next to other intersections, no attempts to control nearby access... they call them planners but it amazing how little foresight so many of them have.  It should be logical to not place two heavily used intersections within 200' of one another (frontage road and heavily used state highway) but they clearly missed the memo on that one.


It wasn't the local development and the intersections around them that caused the problem.  That area has been built up that way since the 70s and 80s and by and large wasn't difficult to get around. 

The back-ups started occurring when Verona and areas around there became more commuter-type communities.  In the 1970s and 80s, Verona was a dinky farm town and Mount Horeb may as well have been the end of the earth.  Now both have a significant portion of people who commute up to Madison every day - and there is only a couple ways for them to get there.  So I can understand why Madison and Fitchburg aren't happy about cutting off access to those businesses. 

DaBigE

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 26, 2019, 09:27:06 AM
Quote from: Roadguy on February 26, 2019, 03:59:40 AM
Quote from: SSOWorld on February 25, 2019, 09:28:50 PM
I'll be dead before this happens.

Second that statement.  When they proceeded with phase 1 & 2 it basically eliminated a chance in the future to proceed with phase 3.

Another issue is the way the cities of Madison and Fitchburg allowed for the areas around Verona Road to develop.  Intersections right next to other intersections, no attempts to control nearby access... they call them planners but it amazing how little foresight so many of them have.  It should be logical to not place two heavily used intersections within 200' of one another (frontage road and heavily used state highway) but they clearly missed the memo on that one.


It wasn't the local development and the intersections around them that caused the problem.  That area has been built up that way since the 70s and 80s and by and large wasn't difficult to get around. 

The back-ups started occurring when Verona and areas around there became more commuter-type communities.  In the 1970s and 80s, Verona was a dinky farm town and Mount Horeb may as well have been the end of the earth.  Now both have a significant portion of people who commute up to Madison every day - and there is only a couple ways for them to get there.  So I can understand why Madison and Fitchburg aren't happy about cutting off access to those businesses.

The location of Epic doesn't help either.
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

The Ghostbuster

As a 32-year resident of Madison, I kow this city like the back of my hand. As far as transportaion is concerned in my city, I would really like the DOT to get a move on deciding on what they are going to do with the US 51 (Stoughton Road) corridor study: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/51/default.aspx. The last public information meeting was six years ago. I'd also like them to decide what they will do with the Beltine corridor study: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/madisonbeltline/default.aspx. Personally, I'd add a congestion-priced toll lane in each direction, and all on-ramps along the corridor would have ramp meters as well. I also would mind a Beltilne bypass along the north side of the Madison area (although I know that is a pipe dream). As for public transit through the city, the proposed Bus Rapid Transit plan greatly interests me: http://www.madisonareampo.org/BRT.cfm. BRT makes much more sense to me than the previous rail proposals (commuter, light, streetcar).

MantyMadTown

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 26, 2019, 04:52:43 PM
As a 32-year resident of Madison, I kow this city like the back of my hand. As far as transportaion is concerned in my city, I would really like the DOT to get a move on deciding on what they are going to do with the US 51 (Stoughton Road) corridor study: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/51/default.aspx. The last public information meeting was six years ago. I'd also like them to decide what they will do with the Beltine corridor study: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/madisonbeltline/default.aspx. Personally, I'd add a congestion-priced toll lane in each direction, and all on-ramps along the corridor would have ramp meters as well. I also would mind a Beltilne bypass along the north side of the Madison area (although I know that is a pipe dream). As for public transit through the city, the proposed Bus Rapid Transit plan greatly interests me: http://www.madisonareampo.org/BRT.cfm. BRT makes much more sense to me than the previous rail proposals (commuter, light, streetcar).

I've been open to WISDOT looking into tolling as a long-term solution to provide road funding. Adding a toll lane to the Beltline sounds like a great idea. Congestion pricing would basically mitigate the extra traffic adding the extra lane would provide. If we're going to do tolling, I would suggest using a system compatible with I-Pass so we can toll drivers coming in and out of Illinois as well.

When I first moved to Madison I wanted rail as well, but now it looks like it's not going to happen here because they'll probably move forward with BRT. I hope we can make it work so we can provide effective transit for people all over Madison and Dane County.
Forget the I-41 haters

DaBigE

Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 26, 2019, 05:39:06 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 26, 2019, 04:52:43 PM
As a 32-year resident of Madison, I kow this city like the back of my hand. As far as transportaion is concerned in my city, I would really like the DOT to get a move on deciding on what they are going to do with the US 51 (Stoughton Road) corridor study: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/51/default.aspx. The last public information meeting was six years ago. I'd also like them to decide what they will do with the Beltine corridor study: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/madisonbeltline/default.aspx. Personally, I'd add a congestion-priced toll lane in each direction, and all on-ramps along the corridor would have ramp meters as well. I also would mind a Beltilne bypass along the north side of the Madison area (although I know that is a pipe dream). As for public transit through the city, the proposed Bus Rapid Transit plan greatly interests me: http://www.madisonareampo.org/BRT.cfm. BRT makes much more sense to me than the previous rail proposals (commuter, light, streetcar).

I've been open to WISDOT looking into tolling as a long-term solution to provide road funding. Adding a toll lane to the Beltline sounds like a great idea. Congestion pricing would basically mitigate the extra traffic adding the extra lane would provide. If we're going to do tolling, I would suggest using a system compatible with I-Pass so we can toll drivers coming in and out of Illinois as well.

Yes, look how well tolling works in Illinois. Perpetual construction on the toll roads while everything else falls apart. It'll take forever to get off the ground, require a significant investment just for the infrastructure, and still won't solve anything long-term. Where do you plan on squeezing in a toll lane on the Beltline? There's no room where it needs it most; not to mention the environmental uproar that would keep the idea in the court system forever.

Really want to fund transportation in WI? Tack on a road tax to alcohol sales. Who knows, we might even cut down the drunk driving problem at the same time.
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

mrose

Beltline / 18-151 interchange - I don't know what it is like these days, but I don't recall that area ever being anything more than a tight squeeze, even 25 years ago.

Seems like one of those things that was always underbuilt and then development filled in all the space to the point where there's kinda no easy answer.



MantyMadTown

Yeah it pretty much sucks how there's no room to build on the Beltline. I don't think transportation officials predicted the Beltline would see this much traffic when they first built it as a freeway.
Forget the I-41 haters

SEWIGuy

Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 27, 2019, 01:48:04 AM
Yeah it pretty much sucks how there's no room to build on the Beltline. I don't think transportation officials predicted the Beltline would see this much traffic when they first built it as a freeway.


I would agree that I don't think they anticipated this much traffic, but they also have done a good job preserving it as a freeway.  Growing up in the 70s and 80s, it still had at-grade entrances and exits, and the portion between Mineral Point Road and Middleton still had driveways.  It could have easily become worse had WIDOT not made the choices it did.

mgk920

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 27, 2019, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 27, 2019, 01:48:04 AM
Yeah it pretty much sucks how there's no room to build on the Beltline. I don't think transportation officials predicted the Beltline would see this much traffic when they first built it as a freeway.


I would agree that I don't think they anticipated this much traffic, but they also have done a good job preserving it as a freeway.  Growing up in the 70s and 80s, it still had at-grade entrances and exits, and the portion between Mineral Point Road and Middleton still had driveways.  It could have easily become worse had WIDOT not made the choices it did.

I do remember when the north-south part was a rural two-lane highway and the intersection at Old Sauk Rd was an at-grade intersection.  This was in about 1983.

:-o

Another issue with the Beltline is that due to the lakes, there are no other good ways to get from one side of the city to the other.

Mike

skluth

Quote from: mgk920 on February 27, 2019, 10:27:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 27, 2019, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 27, 2019, 01:48:04 AM
Yeah it pretty much sucks how there's no room to build on the Beltline. I don't think transportation officials predicted the Beltline would see this much traffic when they first built it as a freeway.


I would agree that I don't think they anticipated this much traffic, but they also have done a good job preserving it as a freeway.  Growing up in the 70s and 80s, it still had at-grade entrances and exits, and the portion between Mineral Point Road and Middleton still had driveways.  It could have easily become worse had WIDOT not made the choices it did.

I do remember when the north-south part was a rural two-lane highway and the intersection at Old Sauk Rd was an at-grade intersection.  This was in about 1983.

:-o

Another issue with the Beltline is that due to the lakes, there are no other good ways to get from one side of the city to the other.

Mike

I lived in Madison from 1975-1980. The Beltline was not built east of the Broadway exit back then also. The multiplex ran on Broadway through the south end of Monona which was, like today, a four lane boulevard with stoplights. The Beltline was busy in the late 70s, but the feeder routes had much less capacity than today.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: skluth on February 27, 2019, 02:42:27 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 27, 2019, 10:27:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 27, 2019, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 27, 2019, 01:48:04 AM
Yeah it pretty much sucks how there's no room to build on the Beltline. I don't think transportation officials predicted the Beltline would see this much traffic when they first built it as a freeway.


I would agree that I don't think they anticipated this much traffic, but they also have done a good job preserving it as a freeway.  Growing up in the 70s and 80s, it still had at-grade entrances and exits, and the portion between Mineral Point Road and Middleton still had driveways.  It could have easily become worse had WIDOT not made the choices it did.

I do remember when the north-south part was a rural two-lane highway and the intersection at Old Sauk Rd was an at-grade intersection.  This was in about 1983.

:-o

Another issue with the Beltline is that due to the lakes, there are no other good ways to get from one side of the city to the other.

Mike

I lived in Madison from 1975-1980. The Beltline was not built east of the Broadway exit back then also. The multiplex ran on Broadway through the south end of Monona which was, like today, a four lane boulevard with stoplights. The Beltline was busy in the late 70s, but the feeder routes had much less capacity than today.

Colloquially Broadway was called "the Beltline" at the time.  (That's why they referred to the highway between I-90 and South Towne as the "new Beltline" when it first opened.) But yeah you are correct.  And Broadway backed up considerably during rush hours.  Can't imagine what it would be like now had they not built the new highway.

mgk920

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 27, 2019, 03:31:19 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 27, 2019, 02:42:27 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 27, 2019, 10:27:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 27, 2019, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 27, 2019, 01:48:04 AM
Yeah it pretty much sucks how there's no room to build on the Beltline. I don't think transportation officials predicted the Beltline would see this much traffic when they first built it as a freeway.


I would agree that I don't think they anticipated this much traffic, but they also have done a good job preserving it as a freeway.  Growing up in the 70s and 80s, it still had at-grade entrances and exits, and the portion between Mineral Point Road and Middleton still had driveways.  It could have easily become worse had WIDOT not made the choices it did.

I do remember when the north-south part was a rural two-lane highway and the intersection at Old Sauk Rd was an at-grade intersection.  This was in about 1983.

:-o

Another issue with the Beltline is that due to the lakes, there are no other good ways to get from one side of the city to the other.

Mike

I lived in Madison from 1975-1980. The Beltline was not built east of the Broadway exit back then also. The multiplex ran on Broadway through the south end of Monona which was, like today, a four lane boulevard with stoplights. The Beltline was busy in the late 70s, but the feeder routes had much less capacity than today.

Colloquially Broadway was called "the Beltline" at the time.  (That's why they referred to the highway between I-90 and South Towne as the "new Beltline" when it first opened.) But yeah you are correct.  And Broadway backed up considerably during rush hours.  Can't imagine what it would be like now had they not built the new highway.

One of the alternatives that was studied before the Yahara Marsh bridge was built was to upgrade the existing Broadway.  Yep, the conclusion on that one was about what you might think that it would be.

:meh:

Mike

tchafe1978

Maybe instead of just turning the shoulder into a 4th lane at peak times like the DOT has proposed, maybe they could make that into a toll lane.

I've found the beltline/Verona Rd interchange flow has improved quite a bit based on my experience. I don't go through there every day, but when I do I don't have to wait through 2 or 3 light cycles to make a turn from westbound to southbound. I think removing the light at Summit Rd to turn on to the frontage roads has helped greatly, with not having to stop and no cross traffic. Now if they'd only get rid of the light at Raymond Rd, which will be the last remaining light heading south.

The Ghostbuster

You may have to wait until/if they do the proposed Stage 3 freeway conversion of Verona Road before the Raymond Road traffic light is removed.

triplemultiplex

The Beltline is what happens when you don't plan ahead and just sort of cobble things together well after they are already needed.
Ironically, it was forward thinking that has lead to Madison's tremendous growth in the last quarter century.  Public investment in education.  Madison wouldn't have a quarter million people if UW was somewhere else.  It'd be another middling 50k rust belt city.

The ball needs to get moving rapidly on replacing that signal at US 12 & CTH K with an interchange.  Hard to believe that light is going to make it into the 2020's.  The amount of skid marks at that intersection say more than I could in a long paragraph.

It's also time to start planning for a 2 lane semi-directional ramp from US 151 SB to 39/90/94 SB.

US 14 has to be over the threshold for four lanes out to Cross Plains by now.  Do it right and avoid creating the next Verona Rd.

And speaking of US 14, that tantalizing r/w WisDOT already owns to extend the freeway down to the county line; its time has come.

re: Verona Rd
A good compromise leaves everyone disappointed.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

froggie

Quote from: triplemultiplexUS 14 has to be over the threshold for four lanes out to Cross Plains by now.  Do it right and avoid creating the next Verona Rd.

You could probably make an argument/case for it out to Black Earth at this point.  As for "doing it right", that would involve buying up private access points and making it limited-access at a minimum.  That won't be cheap.  Nor will redoing the 12/14 interchange given the railroad.



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