Minor things that annoy you-sports edition

[1995hoo]

This past weekend demonstrated one thing that bothers me about NFL football.  The winning team gains possession of the ball with well over a minute left to go, and they declare the game over and let the clock run down.  And this happened not once, but twice.

Is it TOO much trouble to require the teams to actually play the full length of the game?

I don't see a problem here. Possession control and clock management are part of the game, and if a team if a team is in a position to run out the clock and secure victory why shouldn't they be able to take advantage of it?

What are you suggesting they be forced to do instead?

I agree. I don't see why it matters. A team has a lead and the other team is unable to stop the clock, so the prudent thing to do is to play conservatively and avoid turning over the ball. Taking a knee is an ideal way to do that. Regarding the coaches and players coming out on the field before the clock hits 0:00, that's fine because the play clock tells you whether there'll be any need to run another play. If the game clock will expire before the play clock requires the ball to be snapped, then why shouldn't they all view the game as being over? (This is sort of the same reason why sudden-death overtime doesn't strike me as an enormous problem in football: Defense is part of the game. While the team that gets the ball first has an advantage, part of the game is stopping that team from scoring.)

I'd rather see a football team taking a knee to protect the lead than what happens sometimes in basketball where a team is trailing by something like 25 points with 20 seconds to play but they continue to foul in a delusional hope the other team will miss the free throws and they'll turn around and score quickly and mount a comeback. It sometimes takes the better part of half an hour to play the final two minutes of a basketball game.

which is why in the SEC you get BS like Alabama playing Tennessee while Auburn has to play Georgia.

Why is that BS? Alabama and Tennessee are huge border-state rivals. Most UT football fans I know hate 'Bama more than any other team -- more than UK, more than Vandy, more than Georgia or Florida.

I assumed part of what he dislikes is that some teams wind up with more difficult permanent cross-division opponents than others. Consider the ACC as an example. Georgia Tech's permanent Atlantic Division opponent is Clemson. Duke's permanent Atlantic Division opponent is Wake Forest. I can see why some people would grumble about that being a serious disadvantage for Georgia Tech. Unfortunately, an unbalanced schedule is inherent with expansion, and any time you have an unbalanced schedule you get fairness questions of that sort.

[formulanone]

RE:  NASCAR, Brian “Baby” France, and the idiotic chase.

Before the idiotic chase, the season championship was ONE MEASURE of who had the best year.  ONE THING.  There were other things, including the historic events, wins, popularity.  Et al.  Then Baby listened to empty suit network execs who had no understanding of NASCAR and contempt for the type of people who liked NASCAR.  And hence the idiotic chase.  Before it, “who won the race” was what was important, every week.  The championship was not really discussed until the last week or two.  Now, the results of the race DO NOT MATTER.  All that matters is qualifying for an idiotic chase to be held months later in a different part of the country.  An idiotic chase which, despite yearly changes to its idiotic format, produces a RANDOM “champion” with no relationship to who had the best year.

Told that the race results do not matter, and combined with other idiotic changes (head in a harness, no racing back to the caution, spec cars with no relationship to stock and no dissimilarities from one another other than a few stickers, unqualified rich kid drivers, “rovals”, segments, etc) the fans stayed away.

In the history of sport NO OTHER SPORT has suffered a decline in TV terms and live gate terms like NASCAR has.  NO OTHER SPORT EVER.  Because its wounds are self-inflicted.

And, sadly, even with Baby gone to DUI purgatory, the crew running things still do not get it and continue with the idiocy.

You’re all aware that the point system in what became Winston Cup (Grand National) changed frequently before the 1970s?   I thought that I’d throw that out there because everyone seems to be under the impression that point systems in NASCAR have ever had Historic stability.  The longest NASCAR ever had a consistent point system is from 1975 to the Chase era when the modern points system was adopted first with Chase itself and then in 2014.  The biggest issue NASCAR and all Motorsports have now is they having an aged viewership.  Younger people tend not to be into Motorsports like Baby Boomers and the Gen-X crowds were.  At this point it’s pretty much inevitable that NASCAR will return to being a niche sport. 

What I did like about the 1975 point system is that it rewarded finishing well and punished bad race results.  That’s how Jeff Gordon ended up losing to Terry Labonte in 1996, he had a ton of wins but kept having bad finishes too.  I’m all for adding extra points for a win but things certainly had an sense of legitimacy in terms of who the champion was before the Chase era. 

I'd modify the scoring to 30-18-15-12-8-6-4-2-1, tossing in the point for most laps lead and any lap lead. That's 5 more than F1 does, to increase the importance of winning (especially in a close series).

What about those finishing outside the top 10? Enjoy the prize money, because that's all you're getting. And no Chase.

[texaskdog]

This past weekend demonstrated one thing that bothers me about NFL football.  The winning team gains possession of the ball with well over a minute left to go, and they declare the game over and let the clock run down.  And this happened not once, but twice.

Is it TOO much trouble to require the teams to actually play the full length of the game?

I don't see a problem here. Possession control and clock management are part of the game, and if a team if a team is in a position to run out the clock and secure victory why shouldn't they be able to take advantage of it?

What are you suggesting they be forced to do instead?

I agree. I don't see why it matters. A team has a lead and the other team is unable to stop the clock, so the prudent thing to do is to play conservatively and avoid turning over the ball. Taking a knee is an ideal way to do that. Regarding the coaches and players coming out on the field before the clock hits 0:00, that's fine because the play clock tells you whether there'll be any need to run another play. If the game clock will expire before the play clock requires the ball to be snapped, then why shouldn't they all view the game as being over? (This is sort of the same reason why sudden-death overtime doesn't strike me as an enormous problem in football: Defense is part of the game. While the team that gets the ball first has an advantage, part of the game is stopping that team from scoring.)

I'd rather see a football team taking a knee to protect the lead than what happens sometimes in basketball where a team is trailing by something like 25 points with 20 seconds to play but they continue to foul in a delusional hope the other team will miss the free throws and they'll turn around and score quickly and mount a comeback. It sometimes takes the better part of half an hour to play the final two minutes of a basketball game.

which is why in the SEC you get BS like Alabama playing Tennessee while Auburn has to play Georgia.

Why is that BS? Alabama and Tennessee are huge border-state rivals. Most UT football fans I know hate 'Bama more than any other team -- more than UK, more than Vandy, more than Georgia or Florida.

I assumed part of what he dislikes is that some teams wind up with more difficult permanent cross-division opponents than others. Consider the ACC as an example. Georgia Tech's permanent Atlantic Division opponent is Clemson. Duke's permanent Atlantic Division opponent is Wake Forest. I can see why some people would grumble about that being a serious disadvantage for Georgia Tech. Unfortunately, an unbalanced schedule is inherent with expansion, and any time you have an unbalanced schedule you get fairness questions of that sort.

I'd love to see a team hike the ball and the QB starts running around in circles to kill a bunch of time

Alabama always squashes Tennessee, Tennessee sucks. Their crossover should be someone more capable.  Put Auburn in the east and Missouri in the west and make the Iron Bowl the crossover.

[Max Rockatansky]

RE:  NASCAR, Brian "Baby"  France, and the idiotic chase.

Before the idiotic chase, the season championship was ONE MEASURE of who had the best year.  ONE THING.  There were other things, including the historic events, wins, popularity.  Et al.  Then Baby listened to empty suit network execs who had no understanding of NASCAR and contempt for the type of people who liked NASCAR.  And hence the idiotic chase.  Before it, "who won the race"  was what was important, every week.  The championship was not really discussed until the last week or two.  Now, the results of the race DO NOT MATTER.  All that matters is qualifying for an idiotic chase to be held months later in a different part of the country.  An idiotic chase which, despite yearly changes to its idiotic format, produces a RANDOM "champion"  with no relationship to who had the best year.

Told that the race results do not matter, and combined with other idiotic changes (head in a harness, no racing back to the caution, spec cars with no relationship to stock and no dissimilarities from one another other than a few stickers, unqualified rich kid drivers, "rovals" , segments, etc) the fans stayed away.

In the history of sport NO OTHER SPORT has suffered a decline in TV terms and live gate terms like NASCAR has.  NO OTHER SPORT EVER.  Because its wounds are self-inflicted.

And, sadly, even with Baby gone to DUI purgatory, the crew running things still do not get it and continue with the idiocy.

You're all aware that the point system in what became Winston Cup (Grand National) changed frequently before the 1970s?   I thought that I'd throw that out there because everyone seems to be under the impression that point systems in NASCAR have ever had Historic stability.  The longest NASCAR ever had a consistent point system is from 1975 to the Chase era when the modern points system was adopted first with Chase itself and then in 2014.  The biggest issue NASCAR and all Motorsports have now is they having an aged viewership.  Younger people tend not to be into Motorsports like Baby Boomers and the Gen-X crowds were.  At this point it's pretty much inevitable that NASCAR will return to being a niche sport. 

What I did like about the 1975 point system is that it rewarded finishing well and punished bad race results.  That's how Jeff Gordon ended up losing to Terry Labonte in 1996, he had a ton of wins but kept having bad finishes too.  I'm all for adding extra points for a win but things certainly had an sense of legitimacy in terms of who the champion was before the Chase era. 

I'd modify the scoring to 30-18-15-12-8-6-4-2-1, tossing in the point for most laps lead and any lap lead. That's 5 more than F1 does, to increase the importance of winning (especially in a close series).

What about those finishing outside the top 10? Enjoy the prize money, because that's all you're getting. And no Chase.

One of the things I liked about the Point System CART used was that it had a heavy emphasis on winning but also awarded things like a point for getting the pole.  By default the 1975 system should have had a base 190 points awarded for a win rather than 175.  I didn't really care for getting 5 points for leading a lap in the 1975 system but I did like that driver who led the most laps got a bonus. 

[hbelkins]

Alabama always squashes Tennessee, Tennessee sucks. Their crossover should be someone more capable.  Put Auburn in the east and Missouri in the west and make the Iron Bowl the crossover.

I wondered if perhaps the current state of Tennessee football had something to do with the comment. 

Instead of East and West divisions, I've sometimes thought about North and South divisions. UK, Mizzou, Tennessee, Vandy, Georgia, South Carolina, and Arkansas in the north. A&M, LSU, Bama, Auburn, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, and Florida in the South.

Regarding the NASCAR points system, and the reference to CART above, the old system gave a point for leading a lap and a point for leading the most laps. I wouldn't have minded a point for winning the pole.

[texaskdog]

yes Florida for Arkansas would accomplish the same thing

[SSOWorld]

This past weekend demonstrated one thing that bothers me about NFL football.  The winning team gains possession of the ball with well over a minute left to go, and they declare the game over and let the clock run down.  And this happened not once, but twice.

Is it TOO much trouble to require the teams to actually play the full length of the game?

I don't see a problem here. Possession control and clock management are part of the game, and if a team if a team is in a position to run out the clock and secure victory why shouldn't they be able to take advantage of it?

What are you suggesting they be forced to do instead?

I agree. I don't see why it matters. A team has a lead and the other team is unable to stop the clock, so the prudent thing to do is to play conservatively and avoid turning over the ball. Taking a knee is an ideal way to do that. Regarding the coaches and players coming out on the field before the clock hits 0:00, that's fine because the play clock tells you whether there'll be any need to run another play. If the game clock will expire before the play clock requires the ball to be snapped, then why shouldn't they all view the game as being over? (This is sort of the same reason why sudden-death overtime doesn't strike me as an enormous problem in football: Defense is part of the game. While the team that gets the ball first has an advantage, part of the game is stopping that team from scoring.)

I'd rather see a football team taking a knee to protect the lead than what happens sometimes in basketball where a team is trailing by something like 25 points with 20 seconds to play but they continue to foul in a delusional hope the other team will miss the free throws and they'll turn around and score quickly and mount a comeback. It sometimes takes the better part of half an hour to play the final two minutes of a basketball game.

which is why in the SEC you get BS like Alabama playing Tennessee while Auburn has to play Georgia.

Why is that BS? Alabama and Tennessee are huge border-state rivals. Most UT football fans I know hate 'Bama more than any other team -- more than UK, more than Vandy, more than Georgia or Florida.

I assumed part of what he dislikes is that some teams wind up with more difficult permanent cross-division opponents than others. Consider the ACC as an example. Georgia Tech's permanent Atlantic Division opponent is Clemson. Duke's permanent Atlantic Division opponent is Wake Forest. I can see why some people would grumble about that being a serious disadvantage for Georgia Tech. Unfortunately, an unbalanced schedule is inherent with expansion, and any time you have an unbalanced schedule you get fairness questions of that sort.

THIS is why!!

[NWI_Irish96]

The unintended consequence of having that system is that you'll have the top teams playing even more creampuff schedules than they do now.  Group of 5 teams will be playing all their nonconference games against FCS opponents just to increase their chances of being undefeated.  The only way I would approve of expanding the playoff to 8 teams is to impose the following conditions.

1) To be eligible for the playoff, you must play at least 12 FBS opponents.  An exception can be made for a team that scheduled 12 FBS opponents but had one game cancelled due to weather.

2) For a Power 5 team or ND to be eligible for the playoff, you must play at least 10 other Power 5/ND teams.  Again an exception can be made for a game cancelled due to weather.

Since all P5 Conferences play at least 8 Regularly Scheduled Conference games, and have a Championship game, that is at least 9 P5 games against other members of your conference, with at least 8 different opponents, as Championship games can be repeat opponents

The way I read 2), is not just 10 games vs others in the P5, but 10 unique opponents. Assuming the Conference Title game is not a Rematch, many of the P5 Conferences already do this...SEC is sticking to 8 SEC games and the Big 12 has to have a repeat Title Game opponent since they play a Round Robin Football schedule. Pretty sure Big Ten, ACC, and Pac 12 are already here

If you are a P5 team that plays an 8 game conference schedule, you have to have 2 of your nonconference games against P5 teams.  Not everybody does that currently.

[NWI_Irish96]

Alabama always squashes Tennessee, Tennessee sucks. Their crossover should be someone more capable.  Put Auburn in the east and Missouri in the west and make the Iron Bowl the crossover.

I wondered if perhaps the current state of Tennessee football had something to do with the comment. 

Instead of East and West divisions, I've sometimes thought about North and South divisions. UK, Mizzou, Tennessee, Vandy, Georgia, South Carolina, and Arkansas in the north. A&M, LSU, Bama, Auburn, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, and Florida in the South.

Regarding the NASCAR points system, and the reference to CART above, the old system gave a point for leading a lap and a point for leading the most laps. I wouldn't have minded a point for winning the pole.

I like the idea of football conferences eliminating divisions, having schedules that rotate in all conference teams, and having the top 2 play in the conference championship game.  You pretty much eliminate the 11-1 team not playing in its conference championship game and yet having a compelling case for a playoff spot.

I'm not a fan of the NASCAR playoff system, but the biggest thing that has bothered me about NASCAR is that a lap down car gets back on the lead lap at every yellow flag.  Makes it too easy to recover from a problem. 

[Max Rockatansky]

Alabama always squashes Tennessee, Tennessee sucks. Their crossover should be someone more capable.  Put Auburn in the east and Missouri in the west and make the Iron Bowl the crossover.

I wondered if perhaps the current state of Tennessee football had something to do with the comment. 

Instead of East and West divisions, I've sometimes thought about North and South divisions. UK, Mizzou, Tennessee, Vandy, Georgia, South Carolina, and Arkansas in the north. A&M, LSU, Bama, Auburn, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, and Florida in the South.

Regarding the NASCAR points system, and the reference to CART above, the old system gave a point for leading a lap and a point for leading the most laps. I wouldn't have minded a point for winning the pole.

I like the idea of football conferences eliminating divisions, having schedules that rotate in all conference teams, and having the top 2 play in the conference championship game.  You pretty much eliminate the 11-1 team not playing in its conference championship game and yet having a compelling case for a playoff spot.

I'm not a fan of the NASCAR playoff system, but the biggest thing that has bothered me about NASCAR is that a lap down car gets back on the lead lap at every yellow flag.  Makes it too easy to recover from a problem.

I think even the most causal NASCAR fans can agree that the "lucky dog"  system sucks compared to the previous race back to the yellow flag free for all.  It's just one of the many instances where safety interests have taken away from the fun factor in NASCAR competition.  Granted I didn't use to care for how the leader would dog it leisurely back to the start/finish line once the yellow was thrown which opened the door for a lot of drivers to get laps back. 

[thspfc]

I'm not a fan of the NASCAR playoff system, but the biggest thing that has bothered me about NASCAR is that a lap down car gets back on the lead lap at every yellow flag.  Makes it too easy to recover from a problem.

I think even the most causal NASCAR fans can agree that the "lucky dog"  system sucks compared to the previous race back to the yellow flag free for all.  It's just one of the many instances where safety interests have taken away from the fun factor in NASCAR competition.  Granted I didn't use to care for how the leader would dog it leisurely back to the start/finish line once the yellow was thrown which opened the door for a lot of drivers to get laps back.

I don't watch much Nascar (the Daytona 500 is about it), but I like the rule. It creates competition for the drivers that have fallen behind, because they know they can get back in the race if they keep going hard. Otherwise, they would probably check out and forget about it when they go a lap down.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm not a fan of the NASCAR playoff system, but the biggest thing that has bothered me about NASCAR is that a lap down car gets back on the lead lap at every yellow flag.  Makes it too easy to recover from a problem.

I think even the most causal NASCAR fans can agree that the "lucky dog"  system sucks compared to the previous race back to the yellow flag free for all.  It's just one of the many instances where safety interests have taken away from the fun factor in NASCAR competition.  Granted I didn't use to care for how the leader would dog it leisurely back to the start/finish line once the yellow was thrown which opened the door for a lot of drivers to get laps back.

I don't watch much Nascar (the Daytona 500 is about it), but I like the rule. It creates competition for the drivers that have fallen behind, because they know they can get back in the race if they keep going hard. Otherwise, they would probably check out and forget about it when they go a lap down.

But they didn't, some of the best parts about old NASCAR races was when good cars got a lap down and spent a good portion of the race trying to get it back.  Everyone got up in arms about the practice of racing back to the flag under yellow  being unsafe which is the real reason it changed.  One of the big draws to racing is the aspect of danger and pushing a machine to it's limits.  Giving someone a free pass to get a lap back is weak sauce over having to earn it. 

[SP Cook]

I think even the most causal NASCAR fans can agree that the "lucky dog"  system sucks compared to the previous race back to the yellow flag free for all.  It's just one of the many instances where safety interests have taken away from the fun factor in NASCAR competition.

Everyone always uses the "safety"  excuse when discussing the massive mistake that was eliminating racing back to the caution.  Nobody ever can cite any major, injury causing wreck during a race back to the caution. 

For one reason.  None ever happened.  Racing back to the caution was ultra-safe. 

Today, with the idiotic "lucky dog"  and robotic pit stops (new rules for 21 will all but eliminate pit stops under any time pressure at all) mean that as soon as the caution comes out, change the channel, make a sandwich, go to the toilet, take a walk, NOTHING of interest will happen in the race for the next 10 minutes. 

It is ironic that the current Fox ads for the Daytona 500 show highlights from previous years, most of which cannot happen under the current rules.

[texaskdog]

How about when you throw the flag out everyone stops, refuels, hits the head.....boring to just watch them go in circles anyway.

Funny thing about nascar is watching on TV yellow flags and restarts are boring and in person its just the opposite

[hbelkins]

I watched an online replay of the 2001 spring Atlanta race last night. It was the one where Kevin Harvick won his first race in his fourth start after taking over when Dale Earnhardt got killed. He barely beat a hard-charging Jeff Gordon to the finish line. Gordon had been a lap down much of the race after running out of gas. Jerry Nadeau, about whom I'd totally forgotten, was his Hendrick teammate at the time. Nadeau was leading at the last caution and he practically stopped on the track to let Gordon get his lap back. Gordon pitted with the leaders and then ran up into the top 5. Harvick, Dale Jarrett, Bobby Labonte, Gordon, and Dale Jr. were all running under a blanket with just a few laps to go until Junior cut down a tire, and DJ and Labonte faded.

[thspfc]

I watched an online replay of the 2001 spring Atlanta race last night. It was the one where Kevin Harvick won his first race in his fourth start after taking over when Dale Earnhardt got killed. He barely beat a hard-charging Jeff Gordon to the finish line. Gordon had been a lap down much of the race after running out of gas. Jerry Nadeau, about whom I'd totally forgotten, was his Hendrick teammate at the time. Nadeau was leading at the last caution and he practically stopped on the track to let Gordon get his lap back. Gordon pitted with the leaders and then ran up into the top 5. Harvick, Dale Jarrett, Bobby Labonte, Gordon, and Dale Jr. were all running under a blanket with just a few laps to go until Junior cut down a tire, and DJ and Labonte faded.

That's annoying.

[Max Rockatansky]

How about when you throw the flag out everyone stops, refuels, hits the head.....boring to just watch them go in circles anyway.

Funny thing about nascar is watching on TV yellow flags and restarts are boring and in person its just the opposite

It's hard to really understand how much power the cars have and the speed unless you are in person.  The top divisions of the NHRA are unbelievable in person, it feels like an explosion is going off in your face. 

[Max Rockatansky]

I watched an online replay of the 2001 spring Atlanta race last night. It was the one where Kevin Harvick won his first race in his fourth start after taking over when Dale Earnhardt got killed. He barely beat a hard-charging Jeff Gordon to the finish line. Gordon had been a lap down much of the race after running out of gas. Jerry Nadeau, about whom I'd totally forgotten, was his Hendrick teammate at the time. Nadeau was leading at the last caution and he practically stopped on the track to let Gordon get his lap back. Gordon pitted with the leaders and then ran up into the top 5. Harvick, Dale Jarrett, Bobby Labonte, Gordon, and Dale Jr. were all running under a blanket with just a few laps to go until Junior cut down a tire, and DJ and Labonte faded.

That's annoying.

Team orders usually are a thing in most forms of motor sports, in NASCAR they mostly have been taboo.  I seem to recall that more really pissed a lot of fans off at the time. 

[hbelkins]

I watched an online replay of the 2001 spring Atlanta race last night. It was the one where Kevin Harvick won his first race in his fourth start after taking over when Dale Earnhardt got killed. He barely beat a hard-charging Jeff Gordon to the finish line. Gordon had been a lap down much of the race after running out of gas. Jerry Nadeau, about whom I'd totally forgotten, was his Hendrick teammate at the time. Nadeau was leading at the last caution and he practically stopped on the track to let Gordon get his lap back. Gordon pitted with the leaders and then ran up into the top 5. Harvick, Dale Jarrett, Bobby Labonte, Gordon, and Dale Jr. were all running under a blanket with just a few laps to go until Junior cut down a tire, and DJ and Labonte faded.

That's annoying.

Team orders usually are a thing in most forms of motor sports, in NASCAR they mostly have been taboo.  I seem to recall that more really pissed a lot of fans off at the time.

They're still a thing. Back then, it was "let your teammate get back on the lead lap." Now, it's "draft and pit with your teammate." But that's become more common of a thing with manufacturers as opposed to teams. Watch and see if all the Fords, Chevys, and Toyotas all try to pit at the same time at the Daytona 500.

[Max Rockatansky]

I watched an online replay of the 2001 spring Atlanta race last night. It was the one where Kevin Harvick won his first race in his fourth start after taking over when Dale Earnhardt got killed. He barely beat a hard-charging Jeff Gordon to the finish line. Gordon had been a lap down much of the race after running out of gas. Jerry Nadeau, about whom I'd totally forgotten, was his Hendrick teammate at the time. Nadeau was leading at the last caution and he practically stopped on the track to let Gordon get his lap back. Gordon pitted with the leaders and then ran up into the top 5. Harvick, Dale Jarrett, Bobby Labonte, Gordon, and Dale Jr. were all running under a blanket with just a few laps to go until Junior cut down a tire, and DJ and Labonte faded.

That's annoying.

Team orders usually are a thing in most forms of motor sports, in NASCAR they mostly have been taboo.  I seem to recall that more really pissed a lot of fans off at the time.

They're still a thing. Back then, it was "let your teammate get back on the lead lap." Now, it's "draft and pit with your teammate." But that's become more common of a thing with manufacturers as opposed to teams. Watch and see if all the Fords, Chevys, and Toyotas all try to pit at the same time at the Daytona 500.

At this point it would probably be a better race and debated safer just to yank those restrictor plates off.  I'm sure with the actual cars have no factory body panels these days that there could be some additional aerodynamic trickery that could be used to keep the cars on the track with additionally downforce.  Unfortunately the only thing that will break up the packs at plate tracks is to allow the cars to go fast enough where handling becomes a factor again.  When Bill Elliot was setting 212 MPH qualifying records handling was still at least a fringe variable at plate tracks, things like Bobby Allison almost ripping down the catch fence scared the hell out of everyone.  Even if the engine displacement was smaller it would just yield similar results to current plate racing, handling has be a factor.  One interesting proposal I saw once was to reduce the banking at Daytona and Talladega down to 20 degrees so the cars could run flat out. 

But to your point, the automakers have had a ton of influence over the last couple decades that could be considered "team orders."   Really it would be nice if their influence on things like engine building and promoting 3-4 car teams could be reduced.  The problem is the budge of a race team has risen so much it's hard to operate without automaker support anymore. 

[1995hoo]

How about when you throw the flag out everyone stops, refuels, hits the head.....boring to just watch them go in circles anyway.

Funny thing about nascar is watching on TV yellow flags and restarts are boring and in person its just the opposite

It's hard to really understand how much power the cars have and the speed unless you are in person.  The top divisions of the NHRA are unbelievable in person, it feels like an explosion is going off in your face. 

If you're interested, sign up for one of those events where you get to drive a race car around a speedway. My wife bought me a voucher to one of those several years ago and I drove a stock car around Richmond International Raceway. The power is astonishing, even in top gear. I'd love to try it again at one of the bigger speedways like Charlotte, Dover, or Daytona.

[Max Rockatansky]

How about when you throw the flag out everyone stops, refuels, hits the head.....boring to just watch them go in circles anyway.

Funny thing about nascar is watching on TV yellow flags and restarts are boring and in person its just the opposite

It's hard to really understand how much power the cars have and the speed unless you are in person.  The top divisions of the NHRA are unbelievable in person, it feels like an explosion is going off in your face. 

If you're interested, sign up for one of those events where you get to drive a race car around a speedway. My wife bought me a voucher to one of those several years ago and I drove a stock car around Richmond International Raceway. The power is astonishing, even in top gear. I'd love to try it again at one of the bigger speedways like Charlotte, Dover, or Daytona.

What is really surprising about Stock Car engines is the torque is relatively low with the short stroke configuration they run.  Those engines are built to run at high RPMs and produce as much horsepower for maximum speed as possible.  The average 0-60 on a NASCAR Cup series car is about 4-4.5 seconds.  It's also pretty amazing that so few gears can get to over 200 MPH when some modern performance cars struggle to get there with 8 or more. 

[Scott5114]

As for cheering for faraway teams rather than your local team...  For me...  Unless I personally know someone on the team, then I'm watching the sport for the sake of the game, not for the sake of the city.

It kind of depends on the city. Oklahoma City never had a major-league sports team before the Thunder. Fairly early on after they moved here, they had a season where they did very well and went far into the playoffs. Suddenly we had a bunch of people (celebrity sports fans, league officials, household-name players from teams that had already been eliminated) flying into OKC and staying downtown, that never had any reason to before. Local businesses downtown were suddenly catering to a whole class of well-to-do people of the sort that you just don't find in OKC on a regular basis. It definitely caused some reflection on what it must be like to be that sort of person experiencing OKC for the first time. I'd say it probably led to some businesses opening downtown because it was the first time it was really obvious how much the Thunder could do to bring people to the city.

So I'm not a basketball fan, but I do hope the Thunder do well because it would be good for the city for another event like that to happen. But, of course, in a larger city like NYC or Houston, a NBA playoff game just wouldn't move the needle like it did in OKC.

[Max Rockatansky]

As for cheering for faraway teams rather than your local team...  For me...  Unless I personally know someone on the team, then I'm watching the sport for the sake of the game, not for the sake of the city.

It kind of depends on the city. Oklahoma City never had a major-league sports team before the Thunder. Fairly early on after they moved here, they had a season where they did very well and went far into the playoffs. Suddenly we had a bunch of people (celebrity sports fans, league officials, household-name players from teams that had already been eliminated) flying into OKC and staying downtown, that never had any reason to before. Local businesses downtown were suddenly catering to a whole class of well-to-do people of the sort that you just don't find in OKC on a regular basis. It definitely caused some reflection on what it must be like to be that sort of person experiencing OKC for the first time. I'd say it probably led to some businesses opening downtown because it was the first time it was really obvious how much the Thunder could do to bring people to the city.

So I'm not a basketball fan, but I do hope the Thunder do well because it would be good for the city for another event like that to happen. But, of course, in a larger city like NYC or Houston, a NBA playoff game just wouldn't move the needle like it did in OKC.

Interestingly when I lived in Phoenix I noticed there was an entrenched fan base of the Denver Broncos among the long time locals.  It turns out that the Broncos were the most popular team by a large margin before the Cardinals showed up.  I'd argue the Broncos were still more popular until the Cardinals made a Super Bowl run with Kurt Warner.  Oddly there were also a lot of Nebraska Cornhusker fans also.  I found that particularly odd since Arizona State had a lot of success in football in the late 20th Century. 

[webny99]

But, of course, in a larger city like NYC or Houston, a NBA playoff game just wouldn't move the needle like it did in OKC.

Since you mentioned Houston, site of the Buffalo Bill's wild card game earlier this month, I'm obligated to point this out.