PA Speed Studies - question about mechanics

[Ketchup99]

Hi everyone,
Recently I wrote to a township near me (College Twp) asking that they request PennDOT to perform a speed study on the section of Route 322 within the township, a freeway currently posted at 55, to raise the limit to 65. They replied to my email saying, essentially, no. It occurred to me that I could ask the county to do the same thing, but does anyone know if a county can request a speed study in Pennsylvania?

[sbeaver44]

I keep meaning to write to PennDOT about US 30 between York and Lancaster.  55's crazy in some places, when PA 283 is right there, 65, and doesn't even have a nice inside shoulder or grass median.

[jeffandnicole]

Well, this is going to be your first problem: https://goo.gl/maps/XELJmXcXK5wQi7ma7 . If there's a curvature on a highway advised at 50 mph, they're very unlikely to raise the speed limit to 15 mph above that advisory.

This will be your second problem: The distance between I-99 and PA 45 where it drops to a single lane each way is only approximately 4 miles.  They're unlikely to raise the speed limit for a short distance, especially with said curve in the road above.

[Ketchup99]

Well, this is going to be your first problem: https://goo.gl/maps/XELJmXcXK5wQi7ma7 . If there's a curvature on a highway advised at 50 mph, they're very unlikely to raise the speed limit to 15 mph above that advisory.

This will be your second problem: The distance between I-99 and PA 45 where it drops to a single lane each way is only approximately 4 miles.  They're unlikely to raise the speed limit for a short distance, especially with said curve in the road above.

I proposed that the advisory speed be raised to 55. That curve still feels slow in a car at 55, and nobody slows all the way down to 50. Truckers may need to slow to 50, but they could post something like "Advisory: Cars 55 Trucks 50" for the curve. As to the second problem, most traffic is heading to I-99 anyway, and it's a full-speed interchange, meaning that cars don't have to speed up to 65 and then slow right back down again. Since most traffic is going to/from 99, it's really just slowing from 65 to 55 for a curve and then back to 65 once in a 10+ mile stretch, which isn't really that bizzare at all.

[sprjus4]

I keep meaning to write to PennDOT about US 30 between York and Lancaster.  55's crazy in some places, when PA 283 is right there, 65, and doesn't even have a nice inside shoulder or grass median.

They claimed a few months ago that stretch is "too dangerous" to increase based on "geometric" features which is B.S. considering I-83 is 65 mph without any problems and is much narrower.

Well, this is going to be your first problem: https://goo.gl/maps/XELJmXcXK5wQi7ma7 . If there's a curvature on a highway advised at 50 mph, they're very unlikely to raise the speed limit to 15 mph above that advisory.

Been done before. 10 mph isn't uncommon, is 15 mph unacceptable? Drive down I-81 in Virginia, plenty of areas with 60 mph curves and a 70 mph posted speed limit. I-64 also has a few out near West Virginia IIRC.

This will be your second problem: The distance between I-99 and PA 45 where it drops to a single lane each way is only approximately 4 miles.  They're unlikely to raise the speed limit for a short distance, especially with said curve in the road above.

4 miles is plenty adequate to hold a 65 mph speed limit. Maybe less than a mile, but anything longer isn't an issue.

Of course, PennDOT is one of those that seems very conservative when raising speed limits, so it results in artificial speed limits that are disregarded all over the state, causing a hazard between those driving reasonable & those strictly obeying the speed limit, much like all of the northeast and mid-Atlantic states.

[sprjus4]

I proposed that the advisory speed be raised to 55. That curve still feels slow in a car at 55, and nobody slows all the way down to 50. Truckers may need to slow to 50, but they could post something like "Advisory: Cars 55 Trucks 50" for the curve. As to the second problem, most traffic is heading to I-99 anyway, and it's a full-speed interchange, meaning that cars don't have to speed up to 65 and then slow right back down again. Since most traffic is going to/from 99, it's really just slowing from 65 to 55 for a curve and then back to 65 once in a 10+ mile stretch, which isn't really that bizzare at all.

Too complicated. Advisory speeds are often posted below what is reasonable in a car, and it's largely directed at truck traffic anyway. It's not enforceable, so if you drive 55 mph around it, nothing can be used against you if you're still under or at the speed limit.

[jeffandnicole]

As to the second problem, most traffic is heading to I-99 anyway, and it's a full-speed interchange, meaning that cars don't have to speed up to 65 and then slow right back down again. Since most traffic is going to/from 99, it's really just slowing from 65 to 55 for a curve and then back to 65 once in a 10+ mile stretch, which isn't really that bizzare at all.

Except it's only 65 south/west of US 322 on I-99, not North/East of 322.

SB I-99 just before the US 322 exit: https://goo.gl/maps/oS1xmFkVJ6ngHXiM8


Problem #3: 16 year olds know everything engineers who have been building roads for twice the years you've been alive don't.

Trust me - I've been there.  Many others have been there. 

If you want to try though, do this:  Write a single letter addressed to the town, the state, and the district.  Try to find the most appropriate person in each, which could be the commissioner's office, and they'll just filter the letter down to the proper department (if you're lucky).  Explain your reasoning.  While "Everyone goes faster than the speed limit/advisory limit" is often heard, you are also on the road at very random points of time and not actually getting the speed of other vehicles.  If you're constantly passing them, you'll be surprised that many of them may be holding closer to the speed limit than you think. You can also try that sight lines appear appropriate, the roadway is contoured for the curve, etc.

I tried quickly lookup up speed studies on PennDOT's site, but didn't find anything for this area.  They do have a reasonably good GIS site though ( https://gis.penndot.gov/TIRe ), and near that area you can look up volume reports such as the following:

https://gis.penndot.gov/tire/tms-sites/1182/report

If you know of similar highways in your area with similar types of features, maybe that'll work in your favor.  Or maybe not. If you mention "Route XX has a 65 mph limit at such-and-such curve", yet PennDOT has studies showing that area has a 4x rate of accidents compared to other areas, that'll only be used against your argument, not for.

So there's my advise.  It's an uphill battle.   And it's not a fast one.  Good luck!

Too complicated. Advisory speeds are often posted below what is reasonable in a car, and it's largely directed at truck traffic anyway. It's not enforceable, so if you drive 55 mph around it, nothing can be used against you if you're still under or at the speed limit.

It's not enforceable as a speed limit.  It's absolutely enforceable if you skid out and have an accident, and they (the police, the insurance company, etc) ask why you didn't slow down at or below the signed advisory speed.  There are also penalties for excessive speed, unsafe for conditions, etc.  Those don't require an officer to write you up for a specific speed.  If you manage to skid out on wet/icy pavement, you're argument of "I was only 50 and the speed limit was 55" could be met with a ticket for unsafe speed and the cop telling you should have been going 40. 

I keep meaning to write to PennDOT about US 30 between York and Lancaster.  55's crazy in some places, when PA 283 is right there, 65, and doesn't even have a nice inside shoulder or grass median.

They claimed a few months ago that stretch is "too dangerous" to increase based on "geometric" features which is B.S. considering I-83 is 65 mph without any problems and is much narrower.

Sometimes, it pays to have a politician or other upper-level person in the right position to put a little weight on a situation.  The right or wrong person makes all the difference.

Been done before. 10 mph isn't uncommon, is 15 mph unacceptable? Drive down I-81 in Virginia, plenty of areas with 60 mph curves and a 70 mph posted speed limit. I-64 also has a few out near West Virginia IIRC.

VDOT may have different standards than PennDOT.

Also, citing a 10 mph advisory speed when the existing condition would warrant a 15 mph reduction for an advisory speed isn't a great argument.  A roadway is generally built to handle a specific speed limit (design speed), but other factors (laws, politicians, NIMBYs, etc) cause a lower limit to be posted.  However, if a curve or other roadway feature warrants the need for an advisory speed in that area, it's hard to justify how an advisory speed could simply be raised without any changes to the roadway.

Would VDOT have permitted a 70 limit if the advisory speed was only 55 mph would be the answer to that question you need to find.

[Crown Victoria]

I keep meaning to write to PennDOT about US 30 between York and Lancaster.  55's crazy in some places, when PA 283 is right there, 65, and doesn't even have a nice inside shoulder or grass median.

They claimed a few months ago that stretch is "too dangerous" to increase based on "geometric" features which is B.S. considering I-83 is 65 mph without any problems and is much narrower.

Well, this is going to be your first problem: https://goo.gl/maps/XELJmXcXK5wQi7ma7 . If there's a curvature on a highway advised at 50 mph, they're very unlikely to raise the speed limit to 15 mph above that advisory.

Been done before. 10 mph isn't uncommon, is 15 mph unacceptable? Drive down I-81 in Virginia, plenty of areas with 60 mph curves and a 70 mph posted speed limit. I-64 also has a few out near West Virginia IIRC.

This will be your second problem: The distance between I-99 and PA 45 where it drops to a single lane each way is only approximately 4 miles.  They're unlikely to raise the speed limit for a short distance, especially with said curve in the road above.

4 miles is plenty adequate to hold a 65 mph speed limit. Maybe less than a mile, but anything longer isn't an issue.

Of course, PennDOT is one of those that seems very conservative when raising speed limits, so it results in artificial speed limits that are disregarded all over the state, causing a hazard between those driving reasonable & those strictly obeying the speed limit, much like all of the northeast and mid-Atlantic states.

It's worth mentioning that the PA Turnpike has several instances of curves advised at 55 mph in 70 mph zones. Also in regards to US 30, the Northeast Extension is posted at 70 mph with practically no inside shoulder.
As far as having a short 65 mph zone, the US 222 Kutztown Bypass is posted at 65 while only being about 4 miles long and not connecting to any other freeway.

As to the second problem, most traffic is heading to I-99 anyway, and it's a full-speed interchange, meaning that cars don't have to speed up to 65 and then slow right back down again. Since most traffic is going to/from 99, it's really just slowing from 65 to 55 for a curve and then back to 65 once in a 10+ mile stretch, which isn't really that bizzare at all.

Except it's only 65 south/west of US 322 on I-99, not North/East of 322.

SB I-99 just before the US 322 exit: https://goo.gl/maps/oS1xmFkVJ6ngHXiM8

I-99 was raised to 65 mph throughout the State College area last year, up to its present terminus just shy of I-80.
http://www.statecollege.com/news/local-news/increased-speed-limit-now-in-effect-on-i99-in-centre-county,1479745/

[sprjus4]

I-99 was raised to 65 mph throughout the State College area last year, up to its present terminus just shy of I-80.
http://www.statecollege.com/news/local-news/increased-speed-limit-now-in-effect-on-i99-in-centre-county,1479745/

Can they do this with I-70 between the Maryland state line and Breezewood?

[Ketchup99]

Problem #3: 16 year olds know everything engineers who have been building roads for twice the years you've been alive don't.

Trust me - I've been there.  Many others have been there. 

If you want to try though, do this:  Write a single letter addressed to the town, the state, and the district.  Try to find the most appropriate person in each, which could be the commissioner's office, and they'll just filter the letter down to the proper department (if you're lucky).  Explain your reasoning.  While "Everyone goes faster than the speed limit/advisory limit" is often heard, you are also on the road at very random points of time and not actually getting the speed of other vehicles.  If you're constantly passing them, you'll be surprised that many of them may be holding closer to the speed limit than you think. You can also try that sight lines appear appropriate, the roadway is contoured for the curve, etc.

I tried quickly lookup up speed studies on PennDOT's site, but didn't find anything for this area.  They do have a reasonably good GIS site though ( https://gis.penndot.gov/TIRe ), and near that area you can look up volume reports such as the following:

https://gis.penndot.gov/tire/tms-sites/1182/report

If you know of similar highways in your area with similar types of features, maybe that'll work in your favor.  Or maybe not. If you mention "Route XX has a 65 mph limit at such-and-such curve", yet PennDOT has studies showing that area has a 4x rate of accidents compared to other areas, that'll only be used against your argument, not for.

So there's my advise.  It's an uphill battle.   And it's not a fast one.  Good luck!

I see what you mean about having ten months of driving experience while the engineers have thirty years of design experience, but the 55 limit appears to be an accident of history rather than intentional. This road was built in 1982 when, of course, the only allowable limit was 55. In the 1990s, the speed limit on rural freeways was raised to 65, and then in 2014, it was raised to 70. All the while, the urban freeway limit (Turnpike excepted) remained at 55, but when PennDOT acquiesced and raised the speed limit along the I-99 part of the freeway, they effectively admitted that freeways built to modern standards and with reasonably low traffic counts can be safely signed at 65mph. In the discussion that the council had over my letter, they said nobody had ever raised the topic of a speed study on this section of Route 322. So it seems like a limit that was at 55 under the NMSL and just never got around to being changed.

As for the advisory speed on the curve, a there is in fact precedent for an advisory being signed at 55 in a 65 zone. On I-99 near Exit 81, the speed limit is 65 but an advisory is posted for 55mph. And as far as I know, there isn't an extreme increase in crashes around there. As Crown Victoria said above, given the Turnpike's 55mph advisories in 70 zones, 50 in a 65 is not unprecedented, and the advisory could really be 55 for cars. Ten under for an advisory is certainly not without precedent.

Finally, what I didn't mention in my letter to the township (in response to your "if you pass people they could actually be at 55") was that I tested it. I drove the entire length of the highway going westbound keeping my speed constant at exactly 55, no more no less (the cruise on this car sucks and can't be counted on to be exact). I counted that I was passed by 23 cars and I passed 0. I drove back eastbound keeping my speed constant at 65, and was passed by 9 cars and passed only 5. Since I don't have a radar gun I couldn't actually measure the average speed on the road, but using my rudimentary method (which I might do a couple more times to be sure), the average speed appears to be above 65, which means the 85th percentile speed is likely 70 or so. While I didn't mention this (it could detract from my credibility to admit, in a letter to the township, to breaking the law), it's pretty solid evidence that there's little compliance. And this was done at 5:30 on a weekday - maximum traffic.

[Crown Victoria]

I-99 was raised to 65 mph throughout the State College area last year, up to its present terminus just shy of I-80.
http://www.statecollege.com/news/local-news/increased-speed-limit-now-in-effect-on-i99-in-centre-county,1479745/

Can they do this with I-70 between the Maryland state line and Breezewood?

Yes, they can. Will they, though? 

Seriously though, given that people usually want the fastest route when traveling, increasing the speed limit on I-70 both east and west of the PA Turnpike would help encourage people to use I-70 and the PA Turnpike versus shunpiking on I-68 and I-79, despite the higher cost. Not necessarily asking for 70 mph, but 65 would do (especially on the eastern part to Maryland, but also on the western part past New Stanton after it's reconstructed).

[Bitmapped]

Well, this is going to be your first problem: https://goo.gl/maps/XELJmXcXK5wQi7ma7 . If there's a curvature on a highway advised at 50 mph, they're very unlikely to raise the speed limit to 15 mph above that advisory.

PennDOT has a 55mph-advised curve in a 70mph zone on I-79 SB near Mount Morris. I'm trying to remember if there are any on I-80 where it gets hillier towards Clearfield, Centre, and Clinton Counties.

This will be your second problem: The distance between I-99 and PA 45 where it drops to a single lane each way is only approximately 4 miles.  They're unlikely to raise the speed limit for a short distance, especially with said curve in the road above.

Considering PennDOT's tendency to have speed limits vary all over the place, or default to 55mph to drop back a quarter-mile later, I don't know that having 65mph for four miles is unreasonable.

[Ketchup99]

Well, this is going to be your first problem: https://goo.gl/maps/XELJmXcXK5wQi7ma7 . If there's a curvature on a highway advised at 50 mph, they're very unlikely to raise the speed limit to 15 mph above that advisory.

PennDOT has a 55mph-advised curve in a 70mph zone on I-79 SB near Mount Morris. I'm trying to remember if there are any on I-80 where it gets hillier towards Clearfield, Centre, and ClearfieldClinton Counties.

FTFY and I don't think there are. I drive that stretch a fair amount (from around MM133 in Clearfield County to around 178 in Clinton) and I don't think there's a single advisory speed limit for anything. I don't know about the rest of it, though.

[jeffandnicole]

Well, this is going to be your first problem: https://goo.gl/maps/XELJmXcXK5wQi7ma7 . If there's a curvature on a highway advised at 50 mph, they're very unlikely to raise the speed limit to 15 mph above that advisory.

PennDOT has a 55mph-advised curve in a 70mph zone on I-79 SB near Mount Morris. I'm trying to remember if there are any on I-80 where it gets hillier towards Clearfield, Centre, and Clearfield Counties.

This will be your second problem: The distance between I-99 and PA 45 where it drops to a single lane each way is only approximately 4 miles.  They're unlikely to raise the speed limit for a short distance, especially with said curve in the road above.

Considering PennDOT's tendency to have speed limits vary all over the place, or default to 55mph to drop back a quarter-mile later, I don't know that having 65mph for four miles is unreasonable.

I'm going to start to answer this with a question.

Do you think traffic lights on Interstate highways are a good idea?

After all, they allow for a break.  You can access stores and businesses.  Heck, there's an example on I-70, in this little town called Breezewood. 

Just because you find an example, doesn't mean it's a good one. What's the accident rate around that 55 mph advisory curve area?   If you do your research, and data suggests that the rate is about on par with most other stretches of that 70 mph highway, then you have yourself a bonafide example that a 15 mph advisory reduction of speed on a PennDOT interstate highway that reveals no issues.  However, if PennDOT has in their records that accidents are multiple times more likely to happen in that 55 mph advisory area on a 70 mph roadway, not only did you get yourself dick-whacked across the face by providing an example that counters your own argument that it should be done, it could bring that other curve into light by someone at PennDOT, who may then start reviewing that area and actually reduce the overall speed limit near the curve to reduce the speed difference going into the curve.

So, be careful of those one-off examples.  Just because it's there doesn't mean it's a good idea.  If you can highlight a dozen examples, and most of them are safe with reasonable accident rates, you have yourself some material to work with.

[sprjus4]

West Virginia has various curves on I-79 that have 55 mph advisory speeds, with the speed limit posted at 70 mph.