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Author Topic: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions  (Read 24511 times)

SkyPesos

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #575 on: June 16, 2021, 09:14:29 AM »

A good sign with no words would say "50-80", with 80 as an example of the maximum speed.

Probably not dark blue, though; I thought it was a night limit.
The minimum speed sign is probably more understandable to people that never seen it before seeing it in context, next to a speed limit sign, like here:

As for the night limit, I could see how that would be an interpretation for it. Though going from 100 km/h to 60 km/h seem like a big drop, if it is a night limit.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 09:20:31 AM by SkyPesos »
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SkyPesos

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #576 on: June 16, 2021, 09:18:27 AM »

How is anyone not from the UK or the EU supposed to know (without a description plate) that this means "no motor vehicles"?

Does simply adding a diagonal line make the sign more understandable, like this one?
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RobbieL2415

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #577 on: June 16, 2021, 09:44:03 AM »

How is anyone not from the UK or the EU supposed to know (without a description plate) that this means "no motor vehicles"?

Does simply adding a diagonal line make the sign more understandable, like this one?

Yes. To me without the slash, the sign is a warning sign indicating "vehicles ahead".
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #578 on: June 16, 2021, 12:28:11 PM »

A good sign with no words would say "50-80", with 80 as an example of the maximum speed.

Probably not dark blue, though; I thought it was a night limit.
The minimum speed sign is probably more understandable to people that never seen it before seeing it in context, next to a speed limit sign, like here:

As for the night limit, I could see how that would be an interpretation for it. Though going from 100 km/h to 60 km/h seem like a big drop, if it is a night limit.
I can now understand that it's the minimum speed limit.

TXtoNJ

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #579 on: June 16, 2021, 12:57:28 PM »

What's the problem with the American sign?


To get rid of the word-based instructions.
I think that people know the sign even with reading "speed limit".

I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:



You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.
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kurumi

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #580 on: June 16, 2021, 01:27:29 PM »

For rock n roll fans worldwide, a purely pictorial sign would get the message across:



(text cropping is a little weird; probably MacOS Preview doesn't understand italic bounding box)

Semi-related unpopular road-related opinions:
* Van Hagar was no good
* 80s hair metal in general was ehhh
* "Can't drive 55" is a banger though
* It's surprising how many classic VH hits were covers. Imagine a band with Eddie's talent and great songwriting
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #581 on: June 16, 2021, 01:36:42 PM »

For rock n roll fans worldwide, a purely pictorial sign would get the message across:



(text cropping is a little weird; probably MacOS Preview doesn't understand italic bounding box)

Semi-related unpopular road-related opinions:
* Van Hagar was no good
* 80s hair metal in general was ehhh
* "Can't drive 55" is a banger though
* It's surprising how many classic VH hits were covers. Imagine a band with Eddie's talent and great songwriting


VH's albums were always good for a couple of excellent songs....and a whole lotta trash.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #582 on: June 16, 2021, 01:37:38 PM »

What's the problem with the American sign?


To get rid of the word-based instructions.
I think that people know the sign even with reading "speed limit".

I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:



You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.


Good idea.  I think the addition of "MPH" would make this much better.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #583 on: June 16, 2021, 01:46:08 PM »

What's the problem with the American sign?


To get rid of the word-based instructions.
I think that people know the sign even with reading "speed limit".

I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:



You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.
MPH? Seems a bit high...

Scott5114

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #584 on: June 16, 2021, 01:50:01 PM »

The New Mexico argument is about the stupidest one I see on a regular basis around here. They can just change the sign if it's all that confusing.

Why should New Mexico have to change their sign? The zia is an important state symbol and works well as a highway marker.

Why should singular states' issues supersede national standards? Otherwise, Caltrans signs would still be black.

Why should we adopt a new national standard that conflicts with an already-existing state standard?
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TXtoNJ

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #585 on: June 16, 2021, 01:55:20 PM »

The New Mexico argument is about the stupidest one I see on a regular basis around here. They can just change the sign if it's all that confusing.

Why should New Mexico have to change their sign? The zia is an important state symbol and works well as a highway marker.

Why should singular states' issues supersede national standards? Otherwise, Caltrans signs would still be black.

Why should we adopt a new national standard that conflicts with an already-existing state standard?

Reduced ambiguity for non-English speakers. International coordination, especially since it's the standard in Latin America. Not being typical obstinate Americans. Etc...
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Scott5114

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #586 on: June 16, 2021, 02:07:22 PM »

The metric speed limit sign from the 2004 SHS looked like this:


Change the circle to red and you have a sign that conforms both to international and US expectations.
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CoreySamson

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #587 on: June 16, 2021, 02:11:25 PM »


I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:



You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.


Good idea.  I think the addition of "MPH" would make this much better.
Yeah ditto about the addition of "MPH". My big problem with it, though, is that the color red in American signage signifies "stop" or "prohibited". What Scott just posted I find nearly perfect; I would just remove the words "SPEED LIMIT".
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #588 on: June 16, 2021, 02:18:49 PM »


I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:



You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.


Good idea.  I think the addition of "MPH" would make this much better.
Yeah ditto about the addition of "MPH". My big problem with it, though, is that the color red in American signage signifies "stop" or "prohibited". What Scott just posted I find nearly perfect; I would just remove the words "SPEED LIMIT".


Make the circle green then.
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Scott5114

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #589 on: June 16, 2021, 02:23:59 PM »

Yeah ditto about the addition of "MPH". My big problem with it, though, is that the color red in American signage signifies "stop" or "prohibited". What Scott just posted I find nearly perfect; I would just remove the words "SPEED LIMIT".

The words "speed limit" are what makes it clear, though.

All symbol signage in the United States is a simplified drawing of something in real life. That means you can still get the gist of a symbol sign even if you've never seen it before. The merge sign is two vertical lines joining to form one arrow like two rows of cars must join together when merging. Stop ahead is a depiction of a stop sign with an arrow pointing upward denoting that there is one ahead. Slippery road shows a car with lines under the tires depicting it sliding around, and so on. When symbol signs are newly introduced, they are often accompanied with "educational plaques" that say what they mean in English for those who can't recognize the symbol yet.

Unlike most symbol signs, there is nothing inherent about a red circle that means "speed limit". It is an arbitrary symbol, and, divorced from its original context of "red circles mean things you can't do", which is not an system the United States uses, it is even more arbitrary. If you don't just already know from studying other countries' sign books—which is not something anyone does unless they're planning to visit that country—you can stare at a number in a red circle for hours and never get anywhere close to the intended meaning.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #590 on: June 16, 2021, 02:26:53 PM »


I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:



You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.


Good idea.  I think the addition of "MPH" would make this much better.
Yeah ditto about the addition of "MPH". My big problem with it, though, is that the color red in American signage signifies "stop" or "prohibited". What Scott just posted I find nearly perfect; I would just remove the words "SPEED LIMIT".
Hence why I find most non-North American signage to be confusing. There's a lack of uniformity. The Manual is just more intuitive:

All the Colors have their place:

Red - Stop/prohibitory
Yellow - Warning
White - Statutory/directional
Green - Guidance
Blue - Services/attractions
Brown - Recreation/historical
Orange - Road work
Purple - Toll road
Pink - Civil defense

It seems to me that other countries just throw caution to the wind.
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CNGL-Leudimin

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #591 on: June 16, 2021, 02:36:16 PM »

IMO guidance sign colors should be different depending on the highway being a freeway or a regular road. Like it is done in Europe. If there's an Interstate shield I know it's going to be a freeway (except I-180 WY), but otherwise there's no way to tell beforehand if one is about to get into a freeway or a goat track.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #592 on: June 16, 2021, 02:38:52 PM »

I sort of like how (mainland) China does their signage. Theirs is inspired from three places: the EU, Japan and the US, with similar color designations as the US.

Yellow: Warning
Red: Prohibitory
Brown: Recreation
Orange: Road work

The differences are with Blue and Green signs. In China, green guide signs are used for freeways only, and used on everything on a freeway (yes, including the services, normally indicated with blue in the US). Blue signs are used on non-freeways, with turn lanes signage, distance signage, BBS for income intersections, roundabounts or possible interchanges, and services.
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andrepoiy

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #593 on: June 16, 2021, 02:50:28 PM »


That has been a complaint of many -- that the Manual is too English-centric. I've always assumed the goal has been to phase out as much of the word-based signage as possible and replace them with pictograms or symbols.

There's a reason why Quebec tends to try to use symbols as much as they can
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kphoger

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #594 on: June 16, 2021, 04:33:17 PM »

I think part of the problem is that a red circle without a slash mark has no common meaning in US signage.  Or am I mistaken about that?  Are there any US signs that feature a red circle with no slash mark?  I'm not aware of any.  On the other hand, white rectangles do have a common meaning in US signage:  they are regulatory signs.

In other countries, though, it has a meaning.  For example, in Mexico, a red circle with a slash mark means something is prohibited, whereas a red circle without a slash mark means something is restricted.  Take a look at the two signs below to see what I mean.  The one on the left means "U-turns prohibited", and the one on the right means "U-turns permitted at this location/in this lane".



Thus, in the US, a number in a red circle doesn't have the obvious meaning of "your speed is restricted to this number or less" or "exceeding the speed indicated by this number is prohibited".
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TXtoNJ

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #595 on: June 16, 2021, 04:50:42 PM »

Seems like the red circle within a white box for restrictions would be a useful addition, especially if it could replace a lot of text-heavy restricted signs.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #596 on: June 16, 2021, 07:06:40 PM »

Not sure how common this is in the country; there's a U-turn allowed sign in my area that uses a green circle with the U-turn symbol inside, and I actually like it.
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kphoger

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #597 on: June 16, 2021, 07:13:10 PM »

I think part of the problem is that a red circle without a slash mark has no common meaning in US signage.  Or am I mistaken about that?  Are there any US signs that feature a red circle with no slash mark?  I'm not aware of any.  On the other hand, white rectangles do have a common meaning in US signage:  they are regulatory signs.

In other countries, though, it has a meaning.  For example, in Mexico, a red circle with a slash mark means something is prohibited, whereas a red circle without a slash mark means something is restricted.  Take a look at the two signs below to see what I mean.  The one on the left means "U-turns prohibited", and the one on the right means "U-turns permitted at this location/in this lane".



Thus, in the US, a number in a red circle doesn't have the obvious meaning of "your speed is restricted to this number or less" or "exceeding the speed indicated by this number is prohibited".

Not sure how common this is in the country; there's a U-turn allowed sign in my area that uses a green circle with the U-turn symbol inside, and I actually like it.

Yes, there is already precedent for using green circles on US signs.  It doesn't quite mean "restricted" in the same way that a speed limit sign does, but it's close.

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kphoger

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #598 on: June 16, 2021, 07:21:55 PM »


?
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
« Reply #599 on: June 16, 2021, 07:27:07 PM »


?
That's a speed limit sign duh.

 


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