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Author Topic: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering  (Read 7487 times)

Duke87

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2021, 12:44:56 AM »

We have the issue in Florida too on I-4 where its one number one way and another the other way.  It can't be perfect.

It... can be though. I literally described the correct way to do this.

Hell, New York themselves has done this correctly on other roads. Look at I-95. Northbound travelers will encounter exits 1A*, 1B*, 1C, 1D, 2A, 2B, 4A, 4B, 5A, 5B, 6A, 6B, 7C, 8B, 8C. Southbound travelers will encounter exits 8C, 8B, 8A, 7B, 7A, 6B, 6A, 5A, 4B, 3, 2A, 1D, 1C, 1B, 1A*.

Some letters are missing from the sequence where exit ramps don't exist, but they avoid reusing the same exit number for two unrelated destinations.

*for the sake of this argument we can ignore how Port Authority signage incorrectly labels exits 1A and 1B as 1 and 2
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bluecountry

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2021, 12:30:00 PM »

So the Hutch is being re-numbered?
This is the first I heard of it; what happens once it enters CT?
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2021, 02:14:16 PM »

So the Hutch is being re-numbered?
This is the first I heard of it; what happens once it enters CT?
It becomes CT 15.
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2021, 03:12:39 PM »

So the Hutch is being re-numbered?
This is the first I heard of it; what happens once it enters CT?

If we were talking about any other state, the answer would be that the exit numbering resets and starts over at 0 or 1.

However, because we're talking about Connecticut...the exit numbering resets and starts at 27, because to do otherwise would change the Merritt Parkway's historic essential character.  :)
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2021, 03:24:05 PM »

The first exit on CT 15 along the Merritt Parkway should have been Exit 1 from the get-go, not Exit 27. The JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland/Delaware and Interstate 195 in Rhode Island/Massachusetts used to do that (as did the eastern Interstate 86), and the Palisades Interstate Parkway still does it. Outside of Beltways, I haven't seen too many mileage-based roadways not restart their mileage and exit sequences when crossing state lines (save Interstate 24 in Tennessee and future Interstate 49 in Arkansas).
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storm2k

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2021, 04:21:57 PM »

The first exit on CT 15 along the Merritt Parkway should have been Exit 1 from the get-go, not Exit 27. The JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland/Delaware and Interstate 195 in Rhode Island/Massachusetts used to do that (as did the eastern Interstate 86), and the Palisades Interstate Parkway still does it. Outside of Beltways, I haven't seen too many mileage-based roadways not restart their mileage and exit sequences when crossing state lines (save Interstate 24 in Tennessee and future Interstate 49 in Arkansas).

278 does it as well. First exits on the Staten Island Expressway continue the numbering that started on the NJ side of the Goethals (even though the exits aren't numbered eastbound).
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2021, 04:33:58 PM »

So the Hutch is being re-numbered?
This is the first I heard of it; what happens once it enters CT?

If we were talking about any other state, the answer would be that the exit numbering resets and starts over at 0 or 1.

However, because we're talking about Connecticut...the exit numbering resets and starts at 27, because to do otherwise would change the Merritt Parkway's historic essential character.  :)
Why do the exits start at 27?
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2021, 04:50:35 PM »

Because the last exit number on the Hutchinson River Parkway was numbered Exit 26. It later became Exit 30, and is now Exit 19.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2021, 05:06:27 PM »

Because the last exit number on the Hutchinson River Parkway was numbered Exit 26. It later became Exit 30, and is now Exit 19.
Doesn't surprise me that Connecticut would forget to change that.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2021, 06:14:43 PM »

The first exit on CT 15 along the Merritt Parkway should have been Exit 1 from the get-go, not Exit 27. The JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland/Delaware and Interstate 195 in Rhode Island/Massachusetts used to do that (as did the eastern Interstate 86), and the Palisades Interstate Parkway still does it. Outside of Beltways, I haven't seen too many mileage-based roadways not restart their mileage and exit sequences when crossing state lines (save Interstate 24 in Tennessee and future Interstate 49 in Arkansas).

278 does it as well. First exits on the Staten Island Expressway continue the numbering that started on the NJ side of the Goethals (even though the exits aren't numbered eastbound).
NJ and NY both have Exit 3 though.

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2021, 09:28:12 PM »

The first exit on CT 15 along the Merritt Parkway should have been Exit 1 from the get-go, not Exit 27. The JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland/Delaware and Interstate 195 in Rhode Island/Massachusetts used to do that (as did the eastern Interstate 86), and the Palisades Interstate Parkway still does it. Outside of Beltways, I haven't seen too many mileage-based roadways not restart their mileage and exit sequences when crossing state lines (save Interstate 24 in Tennessee and future Interstate 49 in Arkansas).

278 does it as well. First exits on the Staten Island Expressway continue the numbering that started on the NJ side of the Goethals (even though the exits aren't numbered eastbound).
I-278 is just in some kind of bizarro world.  The exit numbers signed by the Port Authority are actually new, and I have no idea where they came from; it doesn't appear to be based on anything that exists now, that was planned, or even what's signed in NY (as Alps mentioned).  They're just random and nonsensical.  Given that the Port Authority not only didn't revert their sequential numbers on I-95 when that project was abandoned, but even did replacement in kind somewhat recently, such seems to be a trend with that agency.

We have the issue in Florida too on I-4 where its one number one way and another the other way.  It can't be perfect.

It... can be though. I literally described the correct way to do this.

Hell, New York themselves has done this correctly on other roads. Look at I-95. Northbound travelers will encounter exits 1A*, 1B*, 1C, 1D, 2A, 2B, 4A, 4B, 5A, 5B, 6A, 6B, 7C, 8B, 8C. Southbound travelers will encounter exits 8C, 8B, 8A, 7B, 7A, 6B, 6A, 5A, 4B, 3, 2A, 1D, 1C, 1B, 1A*.

Some letters are missing from the sequence where exit ramps don't exist, but they avoid reusing the same exit number for two unrelated destinations.

*for the sake of this argument we can ignore how Port Authority signage incorrectly labels exits 1A and 1B as 1 and 2
Such is also the reason exit 4C exists on I-890.

Of course, those I-95 exit numbers also have US 1 as 2B NB and 3 SB.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 09:31:18 PM by vdeane »
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2021, 12:11:38 AM »

Because the last exit number on the Hutchinson River Parkway was numbered Exit 26. It later became Exit 30, and is now Exit 19.
Doesn't surprise me that Connecticut would forget to change that.

They didn't forget.  Connecticut is "the Land of Steady Habits" after all.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2021, 09:50:43 AM »

Finally! I was beginning to think the HRP was going to keep the sequential exit numbers permanently. Wikipedia has been updated to show the new exit numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutchinson_River_Parkway. I wonder what highway will get mileage-based exits next?

I saw the northbound ones in the Bronx. The document with all the new signs were pretty much identical copies of the old one. So there were three different style of signs (one with the ALL CAPS STREET then a horizontal line, some have caps in a box, some are standard), and seeing new designs is a lot of the fun of new signs! haha

684 would be straightforward, but I'd be interested in redoing the Palisades Parkway. The first couple of miles are in NJ but the mile markers don't reset at the state line. Regardless, the NY section is about 27 miles long so mile exits are appropriate. More importantly, some of the signs are faded, illegible at night, and have different designs. Exit 14 is still button copy.

I'd love to start seeing proper mile markers in NYC and LI. I have no idea why they are not posted. I'm sure if I ask about NYC, the state and city will both tell me its the other agency's problem.
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jp the roadgeek

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2021, 11:40:59 AM »

For I-684, exits would be 1 A/B (I-287), 1C (Hutch; all SB only), 4, 7 (A/B NB), 12, 17 (SB only), 18, 20 (NB only), 22, 24, 28 A/B (I-84), 28C

Palisades in NJ would go 1 A/B/C (SB only) 2, 7 9 (NB via U-Turn), 10. 

If mileage didn’t reset at the NY line, NY would be 13 A/B, 14 A/B, 17, 18 A/B, 19 A/B (Thruway), 20, 22, 24, 25, 27, 28, 30, 33, 34 (US 6 West), and 35

If mileage did reset at the NY line, exits would be 2 A/B, 3 A/B, 6, 7 A/B, 8 A/B (Thruway), 9, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, 23A, 23B (US 6 West), 24.  I did not give numbers for the Bear Mountain circle.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2021, 09:13:09 PM »

The first exit on CT 15 along the Merritt Parkway should have been Exit 1 from the get-go, not Exit 27. The JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland/Delaware and Interstate 195 in Rhode Island/Massachusetts used to do that (as did the eastern Interstate 86), and the Palisades Interstate Parkway still does it. Outside of Beltways, I haven't seen too many mileage-based roadways not restart their mileage and exit sequences when crossing state lines (save Interstate 24 in Tennessee and future Interstate 49 in Arkansas).

278 does it as well. First exits on the Staten Island Expressway continue the numbering that started on the NJ side of the Goethals (even though the exits aren't numbered eastbound).
I-278 is just in some kind of bizarro world.  The exit numbers signed by the Port Authority are actually new, and I have no idea where they came from; it doesn't appear to be based on anything that exists now, that was planned, or even what's signed in NY (as Alps mentioned).  They're just random and nonsensical.  Given that the Port Authority not only didn't revert their sequential numbers on I-95 when that project was abandoned, but even did replacement in kind somewhat recently, such seems to be a trend with that agency.

The Port Authority marches to the beat of its own drum and is less interested in doing it the right way than pretty much any other agency. All they needed to do is change those exit numbers to 2A-B-C and we're perfect. I wish I knew why they just invent their own way every time.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2021, 12:13:28 AM »

The first exit on CT 15 along the Merritt Parkway should have been Exit 1 from the get-go, not Exit 27. The JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland/Delaware and Interstate 195 in Rhode Island/Massachusetts used to do that (as did the eastern Interstate 86), and the Palisades Interstate Parkway still does it. Outside of Beltways, I haven't seen too many mileage-based roadways not restart their mileage and exit sequences when crossing state lines (save Interstate 24 in Tennessee and future Interstate 49 in Arkansas).

278 does it as well. First exits on the Staten Island Expressway continue the numbering that started on the NJ side of the Goethals (even though the exits aren't numbered eastbound).
I-278 is just in some kind of bizarro world.  The exit numbers signed by the Port Authority are actually new, and I have no idea where they came from; it doesn't appear to be based on anything that exists now, that was planned, or even what's signed in NY (as Alps mentioned).  They're just random and nonsensical.  Given that the Port Authority not only didn't revert their sequential numbers on I-95 when that project was abandoned, but even did replacement in kind somewhat recently, such seems to be a trend with that agency.

The Port Authority marches to the beat of its own drum and is less interested in doing it the right way than pretty much any other agency. All they needed to do is change those exit numbers to 2A-B-C and we're perfect. I wish I knew why they just invent their own way every time.
1-2-3 are in the NJDOT Straight Line Diagrams, so it may not be that simple.

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2021, 01:17:55 AM »

The first exit on CT 15 along the Merritt Parkway should have been Exit 1 from the get-go, not Exit 27. The JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland/Delaware and Interstate 195 in Rhode Island/Massachusetts used to do that (as did the eastern Interstate 86), and the Palisades Interstate Parkway still does it. Outside of Beltways, I haven't seen too many mileage-based roadways not restart their mileage and exit sequences when crossing state lines (save Interstate 24 in Tennessee and future Interstate 49 in Arkansas).

278 does it as well. First exits on the Staten Island Expressway continue the numbering that started on the NJ side of the Goethals (even though the exits aren't numbered eastbound).
I-278 is just in some kind of bizarro world.  The exit numbers signed by the Port Authority are actually new, and I have no idea where they came from; it doesn't appear to be based on anything that exists now, that was planned, or even what's signed in NY (as Alps mentioned).  They're just random and nonsensical.  Given that the Port Authority not only didn't revert their sequential numbers on I-95 when that project was abandoned, but even did replacement in kind somewhat recently, such seems to be a trend with that agency.

The Port Authority marches to the beat of its own drum and is less interested in doing it the right way than pretty much any other agency. All they needed to do is change those exit numbers to 2A-B-C and we're perfect. I wish I knew why they just invent their own way every time.
1-2-3 are in the NJDOT Straight Line Diagrams, so it may not be that simple.

So it is. Guess they consider the 2Y with 1-9 to be Exit 1 even if there's no signage and that doesn't really vibe with how NJDOT signs the ends of a lot of its roads (but sometimes does, because they're a frustrating agency sometimes). Still, 1 for Brunswick Ave, 2 for the Turnpike going EB (and 2A-B-C going WB for the Bayway exits and the Turnpike) works nicely.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2021, 01:59:27 AM »

4C comes before 4A going south.
Yes. But not everyone knows that, so it could cause confusion. I think the old adage is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Did "A" exits come before "B" exits going south/west bound in the sequential system?

I think not, I remember back when my own state had sequential and the A/B exits were normal.

In all suburban an urban areas you get the alphabet soup thing.

Not necessarily. Especially in suburban areas in my part of the country, it is rare to see letter suffixes that arise from multiple interchanges being too close together.

The solution to "alphabet soup" is to close enough ramps such that proper spacing is achieved.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 11:08:54 PM by ran4sh »
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2021, 08:43:07 AM »

4C comes before 4A going south.
Yes. But not everyone knows that, so it could cause confusion. I think the old adage is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Did "A" exits come before "B" exits going south/west bound in the sequential system?

I think not, I remember back when my own state had sequential and the A/B exits were normal.

In all suburban an urban areas you get the alphabet soup thing.

Not necessarily. Especially in suburban areas in my part of the country, it is rare to see letter suffixes that arise from multiple interchanges being too close together.

The solution to "alphabet soup" is to close enough ramps such that proper spacing is achieved.

In both sequential and milage based systems, the proper method is that in the direction where exit numbers are going in reverse order, letters go in reverse order as well.

If an interchange has 2 ramps, that's normal and not an alphabet soup issue. B should come before A when exits are numbered to current standards.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2021, 11:06:54 AM »

So the Hutch is being re-numbered?
This is the first I heard of it; what happens once it enters CT?

If we were talking about any other state, the answer would be that the exit numbering resets and starts over at 0 or 1.

However, because we're talking about Connecticut...the exit numbering resets and starts at 27, because to do otherwise would change the Merritt Parkway's historic essential character.  :)
Well that is going to be awfully confusing.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2021, 11:21:58 AM »

4C comes before 4A going south.
Yes. But not everyone knows that, so it could cause confusion. I think the old adage is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Did "A" exits come before "B" exits going south/west bound in the sequential system?

I think not, I remember back when my own state had sequential and the A/B exits were normal.

In all suburban an urban areas you get the alphabet soup thing.

Not necessarily. Especially in suburban areas in my part of the country, it is rare to see letter suffixes that arise from multiple interchanges being too close together.

The solution to "alphabet soup" is to close enough ramps such that proper spacing is achieved.

In both sequential and milage based systems, the proper method is that in the direction where exit numbers are going in reverse order, letters go in reverse order as well.

If an interchange has 2 ramps, that's normal and not an alphabet soup issue. B should come before A when exits are numbered to current standards.

Did the NJTA fix the Garden State Parkway at Route 47 near Rio Grande, NJ?  I distinctly remember SB was 4A for Rt. 47 NB and 4B for SB Route 47 into Wildwood.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2021, 12:09:49 PM »

4C comes before 4A going south.
Yes. But not everyone knows that, so it could cause confusion. I think the old adage is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Did "A" exits come before "B" exits going south/west bound in the sequential system?

I think not, I remember back when my own state had sequential and the A/B exits were normal.

In all suburban an urban areas you get the alphabet soup thing.

Not necessarily. Especially in suburban areas in my part of the country, it is rare to see letter suffixes that arise from multiple interchanges being too close together.

The solution to "alphabet soup" is to close enough ramps such that proper spacing is achieved.

In both sequential and milage based systems, the proper method is that in the direction where exit numbers are going in reverse order, letters go in reverse order as well.

If an interchange has 2 ramps, that's normal and not an alphabet soup issue. B should come before A when exits are numbered to current standards.

Except that you may have a couple of instances in CT where A will come before B going South/Westbound.  The I-691 and CT 322 exits on I-84 are 27 and 28, respectively, and are backwards westbound, so it makes sense that you’ll have 40A before 40B.  Same with 27 and 28 on 91; 36A will come before 36B going southbound.
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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2021, 05:01:52 PM »

4C comes before 4A going south.
Yes. But not everyone knows that, so it could cause confusion. I think the old adage is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Did "A" exits come before "B" exits going south/west bound in the sequential system?

I think not, I remember back when my own state had sequential and the A/B exits were normal.

In all suburban an urban areas you get the alphabet soup thing.

Not necessarily. Especially in suburban areas in my part of the country, it is rare to see letter suffixes that arise from multiple interchanges being too close together.

The solution to "alphabet soup" is to close enough ramps such that proper spacing is achieved.

In both sequential and milage based systems, the proper method is that in the direction where exit numbers are going in reverse order, letters go in reverse order as well.

If an interchange has 2 ramps, that's normal and not an alphabet soup issue. B should come before A when exits are numbered to current standards.

You're correct regarding single interchanges with multiple ramps. But "alphabet soup" usually refers to multiple closely-spaced interchanges that get suffix letters for that reason. Roadman suggested that they were in all suburban areas, but I think that's an exaggeration. Even urban areas in a lot of the country usually only have a handful of closely-spaced suffix exits (as opposed to multi-ramp interchanges).

I am still shocked when a mileage based exit thread comes up how many people respond to it.  All the time. Why is it so interesting?  IDK it just doesn't matter to me as much as other road related things.  But hey that's me.

However, I will go against myself and add this.....mileage based exits doesn't do a thing on short expressways.  Such as CT-2A in CT.  That short expressway has mileage based exits.  Why?  It doesn't help a thing?  I'd say just don't number the exit or leave it sequential.


Allowing different numbering systems causes confusion.

Sequential only exists as an exit numbering system because it was invented first. Distance/reference based is clearly a superior system and if a state changes to that system, there is no reason to leave some segments of the freeway network in the sequential numbering system.

In fact, one could argue that the proper solution is to close some of the closely-spaced ramps so that there is no issue where there are more ramps than there are mile numbers.

The first exit on CT 15 along the Merritt Parkway should have been Exit 1 from the get-go, not Exit 27. The JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland/Delaware and Interstate 195 in Rhode Island/Massachusetts used to do that (as did the eastern Interstate 86), and the Palisades Interstate Parkway still does it. Outside of Beltways, I haven't seen too many mileage-based roadways not restart their mileage and exit sequences when crossing state lines (save Interstate 24 in Tennessee and future Interstate 49 in Arkansas).

The MUTCD recommends that all auxiliary (3-digit) routes continue their mileage and exits even when crossing a state line. An example of a non-beltway that continues across a state line is I-205 in Oregon and Washington.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 11:09:11 PM by ran4sh »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2021, 10:52:31 PM »

I am still shocked when a mileage based exit thread comes up how many people respond to it.  All the time. Why is it so interesting?  IDK it just doesn't matter to me as much as other road related things.  But hey that's me.

However, I will go against myself and add this.....mileage based exits doesn't do a thing on short expressways.  Such as CT-2A in CT.  That short expressway has mileage based exits.  Why?  It doesn't help a thing?  I'd say just don't number the exit or leave it sequential.


Allowing different numbering systems causes confusion.

Sequential only exists as an exit numbering system because it was invented first. Distance/reference based is clearly a superior system and if a state changes to that system, there is no reason to leave some segments of the freeway network in the sequential numbering system.

In fact, one could argue that the proper solution is to close some of the closely-spaced ramps so that there is no issue where there are more ramps than there are mile numbers.

Ramps are placed where they are needed for traffic purposes.

Closing ramps because someone doesn't like the exit number?  You try telling that with a serious face and see how well the public accepts that answer...
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ran4sh

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Re: Hutchinson Parkway milepost exit renumbering
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2021, 10:59:44 PM »

I am still shocked when a mileage based exit thread comes up how many people respond to it.  All the time. Why is it so interesting?  IDK it just doesn't matter to me as much as other road related things.  But hey that's me.

However, I will go against myself and add this.....mileage based exits doesn't do a thing on short expressways.  Such as CT-2A in CT.  That short expressway has mileage based exits.  Why?  It doesn't help a thing?  I'd say just don't number the exit or leave it sequential.


Allowing different numbering systems causes confusion.

Sequential only exists as an exit numbering system because it was invented first. Distance/reference based is clearly a superior system and if a state changes to that system, there is no reason to leave some segments of the freeway network in the sequential numbering system.

In fact, one could argue that the proper solution is to close some of the closely-spaced ramps so that there is no issue where there are more ramps than there are mile numbers.

Ramps are placed where they are needed for traffic purposes.

Closing ramps because someone doesn't like the exit number?  You try telling that with a serious face and see how well the public accepts that answer...

It's not because of the exit number, but because it is too close to other ramps. The exit number is the evidence of the ramp being too close, in other words it is the symptom rather than the disease.
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