News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered from the forum database changes made in Fall 2023. Let us know if you discover anymore.

Main Menu

A New Plan for Tearing Down I-345

Started by skluth, May 17, 2021, 04:42:50 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

sparker

Quote from: Road Hog on June 28, 2021, 02:32:00 AM
The easiest way to send I-45 to Tulsa is up the Indian Nation Turnpike from McAlester. It may require buying out OTA + a significant outlay to upgrade to interstate standards. But it's way cheaper than a new terrain interstate that will almost completely duplicate the INT.

The INT north of US 69 would be the alignment for either a Tulsa realignment of a projected I-45 extension or a western branch of a routing sticking to US 69; an alternative route over US 75 from Atoka to Henryetta wouldn't make much sense as it's considerably longer and less direct. 


In_Correct

Quote from: Road Hog on June 28, 2021, 02:32:00 AM
The easiest way to send I-45 to Tulsa is up the Indian Nation Turnpike from McAlester. It may require buying out OTA + a significant outlay to upgrade to interstate standards. But it's way cheaper than a new terrain interstate that will almost completely duplicate the INT.

Removing Tolls would make it cost more, not less.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

sparker

Quote from: In_Correct on June 28, 2021, 01:12:47 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on June 28, 2021, 02:32:00 AM
The easiest way to send I-45 to Tulsa is up the Indian Nation Turnpike from McAlester. It may require buying out OTA + a significant outlay to upgrade to interstate standards. But it's way cheaper than a new terrain interstate that will almost completely duplicate the INT.

Removing Tolls would make it cost more, not less.

Even though there's a congressional plan afoot to make the US 412 corridor an Interstate (see that dedicated thread for details), there's been no corresponding mention of any thought to removing tolls on either the Cimarron or Cherokee turnpikes, both of which are included in the proposal.  It's equally likely that if part of the INT is included in I-45 extension plans, the tolls will remain; also, the portion of the facility within the scope of any plans (ostensibly north of US 69) would likely be modified/upgraded with a median barrier and shoulder work to satisfy minimal Interstate standards; retaining the tolls would certainly help to expedite such a project.   

bwana39

Quote from: sparker on June 28, 2021, 09:57:22 PM
Quote from: In_Correct on June 28, 2021, 01:12:47 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on June 28, 2021, 02:32:00 AM
The easiest way to send I-45 to Tulsa is up the Indian Nation Turnpike from McAlester. It may require buying out OTA + a significant outlay to upgrade to interstate standards. But it's way cheaper than a new terrain interstate that will almost completely duplicate the INT.

Removing Tolls would make it cost more, not less.

Even though there's a congressional plan afoot to make the US 412 corridor an Interstate (see that dedicated thread for details), there's been no corresponding mention of any thought to removing tolls on either the Cimarron or Cherokee turnpikes, both of which are included in the proposal.  It's equally likely that if part of the INT is included in I-45 extension plans, the tolls will remain; also, the portion of the facility within the scope of any plans (ostensibly north of US 69) would likely be modified/upgraded with a median barrier and shoulder work to satisfy minimal Interstate standards; retaining the tolls would certainly help to expedite such a project.   

Most of I-44 is toll. The Will Rogers , Turner, and Bailey. Just because it is a tollway in OK does not mean it won't wear the Interstate shield.  The rules say you can't pay for a toll road with interstate funds. It says you cannot convert a free Interstate to tolls later. But numbering existing toll roads as interstates is more than doable as long as they meet the FHWA standards for an interstate.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

sparker

Quote from: bwana39 on June 29, 2021, 12:01:04 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 28, 2021, 09:57:22 PM
Quote from: In_Correct on June 28, 2021, 01:12:47 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on June 28, 2021, 02:32:00 AM
The easiest way to send I-45 to Tulsa is up the Indian Nation Turnpike from McAlester. It may require buying out OTA + a significant outlay to upgrade to interstate standards. But it's way cheaper than a new terrain interstate that will almost completely duplicate the INT.

Removing Tolls would make it cost more, not less.

Even though there's a congressional plan afoot to make the US 412 corridor an Interstate (see that dedicated thread for details), there's been no corresponding mention of any thought to removing tolls on either the Cimarron or Cherokee turnpikes, both of which are included in the proposal.  It's equally likely that if part of the INT is included in I-45 extension plans, the tolls will remain; also, the portion of the facility within the scope of any plans (ostensibly north of US 69) would likely be modified/upgraded with a median barrier and shoulder work to satisfy minimal Interstate standards; retaining the tolls would certainly help to expedite such a project.   

Most of I-44 is toll. The Will Rogers , Turner, and Bailey. Just because it is a tollway in OK does not mean it won't wear the Interstate shield.  The rules say you can't pay for a toll road with interstate funds. It says you cannot convert a free Interstate to tolls later. But numbering existing toll roads as interstates is more than doable as long as they meet the FHWA standards for an interstate.

The original two I-44 turnpikes, the Turner & Will Rogers, were "grandfathered" into the system although they hadn't been completed terribly long before the original Interstate legislation; the fact that some 26 years later the Bailey turnpike was added to that mix as an "add-on" corridor indicates that there has been no particular issue with signing existing turnpikes as Interstates as long as physical standards are met.  Also, the recent push for the two turnpikes along US 412 to be added to the Interstate system further shows that the concept has not only longevity but current relevance.  Although any northern extension of I-45 into OK is speculative at this time, if and when it occurs the prospect of utilizing at least part of the INT as a corridor option to Tulsa remains viable. 

The Ghostbuster

Here is a D magazine article from April: https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/04/a-new-plan-for-tearing-down-i-345/. What do you guys think of it? Even after reading the article, I still think tearing down Interstate 345 makes as much sense as trying to make water flow uphill.

sparker

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 29, 2021, 03:23:09 PM
Here is a D magazine article from April: https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/04/a-new-plan-for-tearing-down-i-345/. What do you guys think of it? Even after reading the article, I still think tearing down Interstate 345 makes as much sense as trying to make water flow uphill.

Well, it's a little less strident than some RE/T-based articles out there, including some previous ones addressing this particular concept.  The idea of at least maintaining some through submerged lanes seems to be posited on an equal footing to an outright removal/"boulevard" alternative; this is a step in a direction that at least doesn't primarily forward an "us versus them" approach with drivers/traffic being the dreaded "them" -- the needs of cross-town commuters are at least acknowledged.  With yet another party chiming in, we'll just have to see if reason or emotion prevails at the end.     

bwana39

Since we are back on track, I am going to remind everyone to comment at the links below.

You should do the following survey.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/i345PM2

The materials are at

http://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/i345

Every positive comment will help the freeway continue.  You don't have to even support a particular freeway model. Just state you believe a freeway there is necessary and perhaps why. It does ask for name and address.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.