Driving Forward OK

[Bobby5280]

Costs of building infrastructure, things like roads, have radically outpaced the national inflation rate. Meanwhile the funding for this stuff is stuck at a 1993 model.

Just look at the cost of NFL stadiums. They've always been examples of excess, but the concrete, steel and other materials going into them still make up the bulk of the cost. The Georgia Dome in Atlanta opened in 1992 and cost $210 million to build. Its replacement, Mercedes-Benz Stadium will cost over $1.5 billion. I don't know too many people who are making 7 times what they were making in 25 years ago.

[kkt]

Although if you go back to the early 20th century subway lines built in New York, the workers were paid significantly less even adjusted for inflation, and safety standards weren't as high. It was accepted that it was a dangerous job and some people would probably die.  They didn't try to kill workers, but they didn't take heroic measures to keep them safe at all costs, either.

[AlexandriaVA]

No comments on the cost of land in any of these examples?

Sun Belt cities can build things cheaper also because of significantly cheaper land prices, so it's typically cheaper to build outward instead of downward/upward.

Until land prices become prohibitively expensive, I don't see why Sun Belt cities would tunnel. And we may never see that day.

[Bobby5280]

Land costs are one thing. Regardless of location, any tunneling project in the United States is going to be outrageously expensive. Regarding mass transit rail, hardly any cities are building new rail lines underground. There are plenty of proposals (especially in Los Angeles) and they all cost way in the billions of dollars to build, but how many rail tunneling projects are actually moving forward? The 2nd Ave. Subway in New York City the only one I can think of immediately and that one has been a work in progress for over 40 years.

For mass transit rail, like "light rail," it's a whole lot cheaper (relatively speaking) to let a rail line eat much of a surface street and build overpass bridges where needed rather than tunnel underground.

Although if you go back to the early 20th century subway lines built in New York, the workers were paid significantly less even adjusted for inflation, and safety standards weren't as high. It was accepted that it was a dangerous job and some people would probably die.  They didn't try to kill workers, but they didn't take heroic measures to keep them safe at all costs, either.

Worker wages are not the primary thing driving up costs of building something like a subway tunnel, highway project or suspension bridge. The actual building materials cost far more in the US than they did 25 years ago. Then add in all the extra layers of red tape. That's probably a huge part of what's ballooning the costs if we're talking about certain people getting paychecks. We now have an environment in the United States where it is damned near impossible to build any really big civil engineering projects. Our nation has fallen way behind. The tallest skyscrapers, biggest bridges, longest tunnels, biggest dams, etc. are all outside of the United States now.

[kphoger]

This thread topic would make an awesome regulatory sign legend.

[Scott5114]

This thread topic would make an awesome regulatory sign legend.

I'm sure that driving forward is OK in Wakefield (for real, where the hell is that?).

[slorydn1]

Costs of building infrastructure, things like roads, have radically outpaced the national inflation rate. Meanwhile the funding for this stuff is stuck at a 1993 model.

Just look at the cost of NFL stadiums. They've always been examples of excess, but the concrete, steel and other materials going into them still make up the bulk of the cost. The Georgia Dome in Atlanta opened in 1992 and cost $210 million to build. Its replacement, Mercedes-Benz Stadium will cost over $1.5 billion. I don't know too many people who are making 7 times what they were making in 25 years ago.

I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. I just wanted to add, strangely enough, that I made almost exactly 7 times more in 2016 than I did in 1992. It took a perfect confluence of age and job/life situations to make that happen so I lol'd at that just a bit. But yeah, for the most part I agree with you on that, too. If I had been employed full time with my current employer in 1992 I would probably only be making 2.5 to 3 times more now than I would have then.

[J N Winkler]

I'm resurrecting this thread to mention that construction plans (90% completion or better) are now available for what OTA is now calling the Kilpatrick Turnpike Southwest Loop and the Eastern Oklahoma County Turnpike:

https://www.pikepass.com/Engineering/ProjectInformation.aspx?DrivingForward

Branding for the latter facility seems still to be a work in progress.  One set of plans has a variant of the road-dwindling-to-point marker with "E OK COUNTY" in place of "CIMARRON," "INDIAN NATION" etc., while another has advance guide signs for I-40 that identify it as "[floating dot] Placeholder [floating dot] Turnpike."

[rte66man]

I'm resurrecting this thread to mention that construction plans (90% completion or better) are now available for what OTA is now calling the Kilpatrick Turnpike Southwest Loop and the Eastern Oklahoma County Turnpike:

https://www.pikepass.com/Engineering/ProjectInformation.aspx?DrivingForward

Branding for the latter facility seems still to be a work in progress.  One set of plans has a variant of the road-dwindling-to-point marker with "E OK COUNTY" in place of "CIMARRON," "INDIAN NATION" etc., while another has advance guide signs for I-40 that identify it as "[floating dot] Placeholder [floating dot] Turnpike."

Looks as if OTA will be fixing the I-40 interchange with the SW Kilpatrick by extending the Sara Rd overpass and making the interchange a full cloverleaf.

[Scott5114]

Branding for the latter facility seems still to be a work in progress.  One set of plans has a variant of the road-dwindling-to-point marker with "E OK COUNTY" in place of "CIMARRON," "INDIAN NATION" etc., while another has advance guide signs for I-40 that identify it as "[floating dot] Placeholder [floating dot] Turnpike."

The logical name for it would be the Choctaw Turnpike, as three of the other turnpikes (four if you count Muskogee as being named after the Creek Nation and not the town) are named after the five civilized tribes, and the turnpike runs fairly close to Choctaw, OK. The only minor downside is that the area is not actually part of the Choctaw tribal service area. Oklahoma County is more within the Chickasaw sphere of influence, and the two tribes have historically not gotten along very well, although I'd imagine the Chickasaws would be inclined to let it slide.

Complicating matters is what happens if it eventually ends up as part of a beltway around OKC.

A more sensible approach would be to get a 3xx number applied to it from the start, a la 364 and 351 in Tulsa. 340 and 344 would be eminently reasonable (and would leave it open for an Interstate designation at some point), but 302 would fit the scheme started in Tulsa, as 102 parallels it.

[J N Winkler]

The logical name for it would be the Choctaw Turnpike, as three of the other turnpikes (four if you count Muskogee as being named after the Creek Nation and not the town) are named after the five civilized tribes, and the turnpike runs fairly close to Choctaw, OK. The only minor downside is that the area is not actually part of the Choctaw tribal service area. Oklahoma County is more within the Chickasaw sphere of influence, and the two tribes have historically not gotten along very well, although I'd imagine the Chickasaws would be inclined to let it slide.

Since this turnpike appears designed to function as a metropolitan bypass--the westside counterpart of the Kilpatrick Turnpike--I think it is equally probable that the present geographic designation will give way to naming after a key player in recent Oklahoma City revitalization efforts.  Norick Turnpike, perhaps?  It would then make sense for the Choctaws to get "their" turnpike as a US 69 upgrade south of McAlester; if memory serves, the US 69-75 Red River crossing leads into the Choctaw Nation.

[Plutonic Panda]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/gilcrease-expressway-extension-update-how-much-will-drivers-pay-for/article_50ad32e6-595d-5879-8798-01e5e311e190.html?utm_content=buffer49947&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[rte66man]

Took a trip to Lawton today and was able to grab the following pics of the soon-to-open Elgin Toll Plaza between Chickasha and Lawton.


WB approaching the toll plaza.  I saw the signage a little further on.




All of the pavement in both directions has been completed and striped.


There was a crew working in the toll booth and near the awning.


Just had to throw this atrocious sign in here


Eastbound at the Elgin toll plaza





IMO, they could open this plaza as soon as next week. OTA still says January, but no date.

[Plutonic Panda]

Thanks a million for the pictures!

Wow, what an ugly ass toll plaza. Why does nearly everything in Oklahoma have to be done the bare minimum and cheap. Smh

[Bobby5280]

They only try to apply any effort on the visuals if the toll plaza or other project is built near Tulsa. With the project being built up the road from Lawton it's no surprise the design would be minimal. At least the function of the plaza will be a decent upgrade (allowing PikePass holders to drive thru at regular highway speed).

It's frustrating how long it has taken to build this toll plaza. Originally it was supposed to be finished this past fall. I can only guess how much longer the Walters toll plaza will take to complete. Maybe over a full year?

Oh, and yes, that sign near Elgin is very hideous. And that atrocious "design" has been there for quite a long time. There's other terrible examples in Lawton, but they kind of pale in comparison to that one.

[Scott5114]

Who the hell was the contractor on this, Morton Buildings?



Also, that 277 sign belongs in Worst of Road Signs.

[kphoger]

the soon-to-open Elgin Toll Plaza between Chickasha and Lawton.

Sorry if I've asked this before, but...

Is this going to be an additional toll between OKC and Lawton, or is it taking the place of the Chickasha plaza, or what?

[bmorrill]

the soon-to-open Elgin Toll Plaza between Chickasha and Lawton.

Sorry if I've asked this before, but...

Is this going to be an additional toll between OKC and Lawton, or is it taking the place of the Chickasha plaza, or what?

Taking the place of the Chickasha plaza.

[Bobby5280]

People here in Lawton were having a giant fit when the construction on the toll plaza started. It seemed like everyone thought there would now be two gates between Lawton and Chickasha. Still, even when told the new plaza would replace the old, slow one and give PikePass holders a speed benefit the locals here just lapsed back to the old "they need to take down the toll gates; the road is paid for" complaint. I'm sure it will be more of the same once the Walters project gets underway. Last time I checked it was supposed to start Summer 2018. I wouldn't be surprised to see that date pushed back some since it looks like quite a bit more work will be required. The old existing toll gate is literally under the OK-5 bridge spanning the turnpike. The bridge is old, in really crappy shape and probably needs to be replaced. Really the whole exit ought to be redone. I haven't seen project plans, but my guess is the Walters toll gate project may look similar in design to the new toll plaza on the Muskogee Turnpike at the OK-51 exit.

[In_Correct]

Even if the roads do become paid for, I still think they should continue to be toll roads. The new improved toll gate has cement roads leading to it. The roads are just asphalt in the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes. I prefer they remain as toll roads and eventually upgrade the road surface. I also like to see Chickasaw Turnpike widened, and even extended to Duncan and Interstate 40 as originally planned. Also, The Unfinished Corridor could have been finished if there was a new Toll Road. Perhaps name it The Choctaw Turnpike. Since The Chickasaw and Choctaw are both unfinished, they are obvious examples to keep tolls. Also, toll plazas could be upgraded to include ramps that have bridges to directly connect to the outside lanes instead of the inside lanes. Oklahoma should keep going with Toll Projects of which I would gladly travel on them. Whether they are roads or [passenger] rail, funds are required to build both of them. The more toll roads Oklahoma builds, it can be proudly known as the state with the most Toll Roads! 

[kphoger]

People here in Lawton were having a giant fit when the construction on the toll plaza started. It seemed like everyone thought there would now be two gates between Lawton and Chickasha. Still, even when told the new plaza would replace the old, slow one and give PikePass holders a speed benefit the locals here just lapsed back to the old "they need to take down the toll gates; the road is paid for" complaint. I'm sure it will be more of the same once the Walters project gets underway. Last time I checked it was supposed to start Summer 2018. I wouldn't be surprised to see that date pushed back some since it looks like quite a bit more work will be required. The old existing toll gate is literally under the OK-5 bridge spanning the turnpike. The bridge is old, in really crappy shape and probably needs to be replaced. Really the whole exit ought to be redone. I haven't seen project plans, but my guess is the Walters toll gate project may look similar in design to the new toll plaza on the Muskogee Turnpike at the OK-51 exit.

Well, they're not paid for anymore!  Now there's new debt to pay off:  toll plaza demolition and construction.  Just keep doing new projects, and you can claim it's never paid off.

[Bobby5280]

The wear and tear from vehicle traffic alone is enough reason to keep the toll gates intact. Roads carry a lot more than their initial cost of construction. Maintenance is a big deal. None of the roads are free. We're going to pay for them either with fuel taxes or tolls. Take down the toll gates and everyone in Oklahoma will have to start paying quite a bit more in fuel taxes. It's almost like the motorist is having to draw from two different bank accounts to handle the same type of bill. He's still paying regardless of which account he uses.

Even if the roads do become paid for, I still think they should continue to be toll roads. The new improved toll gate has cement roads leading to it. The roads are just asphalt in the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes. I prefer they remain as toll roads and eventually upgrade the road surface. I also like to see Chickasaw Turnpike widened, and even extended to Duncan and Interstate 40 as originally planned.

The OTA has had all kinds of different planned turnpike concepts on their books over the years. The Chickasaw was one of the stinkers out of all those concepts, right along with the Duncan to Davis turnpike and Clinton to Snyder turnpike. But unlike the other bad ideas, at least some of this one got built. It's a sure bet the road generates nothing near the traffic levels and toll revenue needed to pay for itself. It doesn't connect to any major destinations. Even the bigger Davis to Ada to Henryetta concept would have done little to move regional traffic faster, again because it doesn't provide any kind of short cut to major destinations.

I think OTA needs to work mainly on improving existing turnpikes rather than building new ones. And if they're going to come up with a new turnpike concept they could at least develop something that would fit well into the big picture view of the national highway system. I think there should be an Oklahoma City to Denver Interstate, diagonal in nature just like I-44. Such a route could cut across Oklahoma from Woodward to Idabel and then ultimately give the cities on the Rockies Front Range a direct SE path to the Gulf of Mexico, via OKC and Texarkana. I think such a route as a toll road would generate positive revenue levels rather than be a drain. But for such a corridor to materialize the planners would need to involve leaders in other states to get such an idea off that ground.

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree with the OKC to Denver. It could be extended SE as well to give OKC and Denver a more direct route to New Orleans.

[bugo]

A US 69 turnpike is the one that is the most needed.

As far as the Davis to Henryetta turnpike goes, it would be a good alternate route from Tulsa to DFW, especially the western parts of the metro. US 69 really, really sucks and is a terribly painful road to drive.

[Bobby5280]

A superhighway upgrade of US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin is badly needed. The corridor is being upgraded, but very slowly. Building the rest as a turnpike might make the conversion happen a lot faster. The slow trickle of fuel tax dollars would make the process take decades. The same thing goes for a turnpike that could connect OKC directly to Denver and Texarkana (and the Gulf Coast via I-49).

Too many OTA turnpike proposals have not had such big picture views to compliment the overall Interstate highway system. Concepts that spur off Interstates at right angles, going from one remote location to another remote location do not compliment the broader system. Again, I'm talking about the silly Duncan-Davis and Clinton-Snyder ideas from the 1990's.

The Davis to Ada to Henrietta turnpike idea is a fairly big "L" shape route. That wouldn't save motorists heading from Tulsa to Dallas any time at all versus just taking the US-75 and US-69 combination straight South, or even taking I-44 to I-35 in OKC.

The Indian Nation Turnpike might be decent at helping traffic from Hugo and McAlester get to Tulsa a little faster, but it does nothing to compliment the overall Interstate highway system. That turnpike is designed only to serve traffic in Oklahoma not any longer distance travel.

There was an OKC to Woodward turnpike concept on one of the old OTA planning maps, but that never was pursued. I'd still like to see such a thing happen. For one thing the OK-3 route between Okarche and Watonga is just stupid. A new turnpike could span that big gap directly.