New York State Thruway

[cl94]

For good reasons cited above about weather, I think county line signs should be mandatory on all freeway-class roads, including the N.Y.S. Thruway and the N.J. Turnpike.

Tell that to the New England states. Vermont posts them subtly on freeway town line signs, but I don't remember seeing any in Massachusetts or Connecticut (and I know I've crossed county lines in both).

[cpzilliacus]

For good reasons cited above about weather, I think county line signs should be mandatory on all freeway-class roads, including the N.Y.S. Thruway and the N.J. Turnpike.

Tell that to the New England states. Vermont posts them subtly on freeway town line signs, but I don't remember seeing any in Massachusetts or Connecticut (and I know I've crossed county lines in both).

Keeping in mind that at least in Connecticut, the counties have been reduced to historic relics (and I think it may be true in  Massachusetts too), though people still talk about at least some of them (as I believe does NOAA), it would probably be appropriate to post the  town lines and perhaps the county lines for reasons of public safety.

Never been to Alaska, but since they have no counties up there, I do not know if other political subdivisions (including municipal and borough boundaries) are posted or not.

Bottom line - always post state boundaries (state DOTs tend to be very good about that, roads maintained by  county or municipal governments, not always so much), and post the boundaries of political subdivisions of state as used by NOAA.

[cl94]

For good reasons cited above about weather, I think county line signs should be mandatory on all freeway-class roads, including the N.Y.S. Thruway and the N.J. Turnpike.

Tell that to the New England states. Vermont posts them subtly on freeway town line signs, but I don't remember seeing any in Massachusetts or Connecticut (and I know I've crossed county lines in both).

Keeping in mind that at least in Connecticut, the counties have been reduced to historic relics, though people still talk about at least some of them (as I believe does NOAA), it would probably be appropriate to post the  town lines and perhaps the county lines for reasons of public safety.

Never been to Alaska, but since they have no counties there, I do not know if other political subdivisions (including municipal boundaries) are posted or not.

Massachusetts is the same way in places. I specifically mentioned Connecticut because I heard a weather alert on the radio while driving today and I had no idea if it applied to me because counties aren't posted. Until they push alerts to everyone's phones automatically based on GPS location, the county one is located in is important.

[cpzilliacus]

Massachusetts is the same way in places. I specifically mentioned Connecticut because I heard a weather alert on the radio while driving today and I had no idea if it applied to me because counties aren't posted. Until they push alerts to everyone's phones automatically based on GPS location, the county one is located in is important.

Most of my miles logged in Connecticut (going as far back as the 1970's) are on three roads - I-84, I-91 and I-95.  Not sure that I have ever seen a county or municipal boundary sign on any of those.

I have gotten weather alerts pushed to both of my smartphone devices (I have an Android tablet and an older Blackberry), which were useful when a very bad thunderstorm (a supercell with with a fair amount of hail and a potential tornado embedded) rolled though an area of Prince George's County, Maryland (hail is somewhat unusual in Maryland).

[Duke87]

Most of my miles logged in Connecticut (going as far back as the 1970's) are on three roads - I-84, I-91 and I-95.  Not sure that I have ever seen a county or municipal boundary sign on any of those.

Connecticut is usually very good about posting municipal boundaries, and there are definitely plenty of such signs on interstates. They typically look like this.

An older format, now mostly phased out due to MUTCD non-compliance, would have explicitly listed the exits (e.g. "exits 14-16" instead of "next 4 exits").

Also, thanks for fitting nicely into the stereotype that no one ever actually visits Connecticut, they just drive through it.

[Buffaboy]

This conversation makes me realize what a waste that "New York" sign at the Exit 55 plaza is.

[cl94]

Most of my miles logged in Connecticut (going as far back as the 1970's) are on three roads - I-84, I-91 and I-95.  Not sure that I have ever seen a county or municipal boundary sign on any of those.

Connecticut is usually very good about posting municipal boundaries, and there are definitely plenty of such signs on interstates. They typically look like this.

An older format, now mostly phased out due to MUTCD non-compliance, would have explicitly listed the exits (e.g. "exits 14-16" instead of "next 4 exits").

Also, thanks for fitting nicely into the stereotype that no one ever actually visits Connecticut, they just drive through it.

Yeah, those are the signs. The Merritt (and only the Merritt) lists the town/city name and nothing else on the sign in its weird font, while surface roads have small green signs on one side of the road that are similar in function to the Massachusetts "book" signs. The Wilbur Cross is signed like a standard expressway.

There are still plenty of signs in the field listing exit numbers, even though they are being phased out.

[mariethefoxy]

I rememeber seeing signs acknowledging the county in Massachusetts, they were ususally combined with the town line, such as

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3470593,-71.6230422,3a,15y,102.63h,85.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJNWrCgJQOj75UcRAZ6Bw7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[empirestate]

At least one sign on I-287 in Rockland is in Clearview. Nobody but NYSTA would have put that up.

That's right; all of the Thruway's county line signs that I know of are in Clearview.

I rememeber seeing signs acknowledging the county in Massachusetts, they were ususally combined with the town line, such as

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3470593,-71.6230422,3a,15y,102.63h,85.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJNWrCgJQOj75UcRAZ6Bw7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Yes, they're marked on I-91, at least Hampshire and Hampden are southbound. Can't remember if Franklin is northbound, but I think so.

[jeffandnicole]

It's worth noting that NY is a home rule state with powerful counties.  Laws change based on county boundary, such as the age to buy cigarettes or whether fireworks are legal.

And, of course, NOAA.  Polygons are great for websites and the TV.  Not so much for radio.

It's silly that the Thruway has all the useless political signs but doesn't want to sign counties.  It feels weird to cross into another county without a sign.

New Jersey is a very strong homerule state as well, although we go by towns, not by counties.

I can see a little benefit in signing counties, based on "Well, we know we can buy (fill in the blank) in this county".  But that's where that usefulness ends.  If someone is going to travel to purchase cigs or fireworks or whatever, they probably have a specific town in mind.  A county line sign doesn't give the person any useful info as to where they can exit to purchase that stuff.  It may even be possible there's never an exit within the county, especially if the highway happens to fall along a narrow portion of the county.  That's what I'm getting at...people are more likely to know a specific exit or town to get to a specific where they need to go to get something, rather than a vague county line marker that may not have an exit for another 5 or 10 miles.

I don't believe that the New Jersey Turnpike has a single county  line sign posted on the Turnpike either.

Though NJTA does post them on its other toll road, the Garden State Parkway, perhaps because the previous agency that ran the Parkway, NJHA did post them (though the county line signs are not exactly what the MUTCD specifies).

For good reasons cited above about weather, I think county line signs should be mandatory on all freeway-class roads, including the N.Y.S. Thruway and the N.J. Turnpike. 

Very few NJ Highways mark their lines.  There's a very old marker on 295 at the Gloucester/Salem line, but that's the only one I know of.  And some counties put up their own signs, which aren't highway/MUTCD signs.

But most people aren't even going to know what station to tune into to get a weather alert to begin with.  It's doubtful a weather related injury or death has ever occurred on the NJ Turnpike (or Thruway, or any other non-county marked highway) because someone didn't know what county they were in.

[KEVIN_224]

Connecticut doesn't mark county boundaries in the field. The closest we get is the Sikorsky Bridge between Stratford and Milford. Although CT Route 15 continues all the way to I-84/US 6 in East Hartford, the Merritt Parkway designation starts/ends there (since it's the Fairfield/New Haven County line).

[empirestate]

I can see a little benefit in signing counties, based on "Well, we know we can buy (fill in the blank) in this county".  But that's where that usefulness ends.  If someone is going to travel to purchase cigs or fireworks or whatever, they probably have a specific town in mind.  A county line sign doesn't give the person any useful info as to where they can exit to purchase that stuff.  It may even be possible there's never an exit within the county, especially if the highway happens to fall along a narrow portion of the county.  That's what I'm getting at...people are more likely to know a specific exit or town to get to a specific where they need to go to get something, rather than a vague county line marker that may not have an exit for another 5 or 10 miles.

If I may turn the question around, what's the reason for needing a reason? Aren't we all a bunch of travelers who enjoy observing our geographic situation, learning our position in the world around us? Don't we have natural curiosity, or do we question, when given any piece of information, what the reason is for needing to be told that?

Perhaps this is the rub: in a society which increasingly glorifies ignorance over information, is it not reward enough to be given a little free piece of knowledge, however trivial? to go to bed each night knowing a little something we didn't know when we awoke that morning?

(MODS: Also, is it worth by this point merging the county line signage discussion into the existing thread{s}?)
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5362.0
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2496.0

[kalvado]

If I may turn the question around, what's the reason for needing a reason? Aren't we all a bunch of travelers who enjoy observing our geographic situation, learning our position in the world around us? Don't we have natural curiosity, or do we question, when given any piece of information, what the reason is for needing to be told that?

Perhaps this is the rub: in a society which increasingly glorifies ignorance over information, is it not reward enough to be given a little free piece of knowledge, however trivial? to go to bed each night knowing a little something we didn't know when we awoke that morning?

If we were discussing if I should go out and post a sign or two - maybe.
But we're talking about agency which is tasked, in principle, with spending tolls smartly, with maximum benefit for all drivers.

And I see a lot of "knowledge" being fed trivia style, without a system. County borders on a highway do not add up to a systematic knowledge, I would say.

[jeffandnicole]

I think we can all agree that there is simply too much signage out there to begin with. It comes down to what should be signed, and how does that benefit the motorist?

Certainly, many reasons have been stated here why the signage could be important. But as one that's always looking at something from another perspective, eventually the questions I ask involves the benefits of such. 

As a motorist on a highway, it's probably most important to know the direction of travel, where one will exit, the speed limit and other laws, and other associated things.  It's hard in my mind to justify a county border as something a motorist needs to know. The Thruway, throughout its existance, probably hasn't received many requests for this signage, and also has decided it wouldn't be relevant to the motorists.

[RobbieL2415]

The NYSTA also likes to sign geographical regions, i.e. "Central Leatherstocking Region", "Capital Region", "Finger Lakes Region".  I've given up scanning GSV for examples because I don't know what MP's their near.

[empirestate]

And I see a lot of "knowledge" being fed trivia style, without a system. County borders on a highway do not add up to a systematic knowledge, I would say.

Can you explain what you mean? It seems like it's at least as "systematic" as what's currently being signed, but I'm not sure I understand the term.

I think we can all agree that there is simply too much signage out there to begin with. It comes down to what should be signed, and how does that benefit the motorist?

Actually, the problem seems to be that we don't agree on that premise, which would explain why you're having trouble finding acceptable justification for it since not all of us are seeking such justification.

Certainly, many reasons have been stated here why the signage could be important. But as one that's always looking at something from another perspective, eventually the questions I ask involves the benefits of such. 

As a motorist on a highway, it's probably most important to know the direction of travel, where one will exit, the speed limit and other laws, and other associated things.  It's hard in my mind to justify a county border as something a motorist needs to know. The Thruway, throughout its existance, probably hasn't received many requests for this signage, and also has decided it wouldn't be relevant to the motorists.

See, I'm looking at it not merely as a motorist operating a vehicle on a highway, but as a traveler within the general environment. Counties are part of the structure of that environment, so learning which one I'm in is edifying in and of itself. Seeing no further need to justify that information, I stop looking for justification.



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[kalvado]

And I see a lot of "knowledge" being fed trivia style, without a system. County borders on a highway do not add up to a systematic knowledge, I would say.

Can you explain what you mean? It seems like it's at least as "systematic" as what's currently being signed, but I'm not sure I understand the term.

As it was already told, a lot of bulls.. is currently being signed on the road. I find watershed information particularly useless.
With that - a simple example of what I mean by "trivia style": once you see "Greene county" (a portion of Thruway between Albany and NYC runs there) on a sign, which bells would that ring to you? What else do you know about Greene county (without looking up wiki, of course) so that knowing actual location of that county benefits you beyond just knowing that there is a Greene county somewhere there?

[SidS1045]

but I don't remember seeing any in Massachusetts or Connecticut (and I know I've crossed county lines in both).

Every once in a while you see one like this:

[empirestate]

And I see a lot of "knowledge" being fed trivia style, without a system. County borders on a highway do not add up to a systematic knowledge, I would say.

Can you explain what you mean? It seems like it's at least as "systematic" as what's currently being signed, but I'm not sure I understand the term.

As it was already told, a lot of bulls.. is currently being signed on the road. I find watershed information particularly useless.
With that - a simple example of what I mean by "trivia style": once you see "Greene county" (a portion of Thruway between Albany and NYC runs there) on a sign, which bells would that ring to you? What else do you know about Greene county (without looking up wiki, of course) so that knowing actual location of that county benefits you beyond just knowing that there is a Greene county somewhere there?

But a county is a definite, discrete component of a political system (at least in New York, where the topic is applicable). I just don't follow what you mean by saying it's not "systematic knowledge"? Surely it's more so than a watershed boundary?

As for the benefit, just by being within a county you are subject to some extent to its laws and jurisdiction. It's not just a geographical curiosity, it affects day-to-day living. To the motorist that extent may be minimal, but to the traveler it could be substantial.


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[kalvado]

And I see a lot of "knowledge" being fed trivia style, without a system. County borders on a highway do not add up to a systematic knowledge, I would say.

Can you explain what you mean? It seems like it's at least as "systematic" as what's currently being signed, but I'm not sure I understand the term.

As it was already told, a lot of bulls.. is currently being signed on the road. I find watershed information particularly useless.
With that - a simple example of what I mean by "trivia style": once you see "Greene county" (a portion of Thruway between Albany and NYC runs there) on a sign, which bells would that ring to you? What else do you know about Greene county (without looking up wiki, of course) so that knowing actual location of that county benefits you beyond just knowing that there is a Greene county somewhere there?

But a county is a definite, discrete component of a political system (at least in New York, where the topic is applicable). I just don't follow what you mean by saying it's not "systematic knowledge"? Surely it's more so than a watershed boundary?

As for the benefit, just by being within a county you are subject to some extent to its laws and jurisdiction. It's not just a geographical curiosity, it affects day-to-day living. To the motorist that extent may be minimal, but to the traveler it could be substantial.


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I take it that you don't know anything specific about Greene county? Any Greene county-specific laws that you do keep in mind when driving through the county?
As for watersheds, even they seem more meaningful (although completely unnecessary on a highway) since I know what is lake Erie / lake Ontario, where they are, and lake watershed does ring some bells for me. That is where things add to my general knowledge. In fact, I even have an idea what would be the next basin once you pass  lake Erie watershed along Thruway towards PA.  That is just my own thing, though...

[empirestate]

I take it that you don't know anything specific about Greene county? Any Greene county-specific laws that you do keep in mind when driving through the county?

Not sure how I gave you the impression that I don't know something specific about Greene County, but your general point goes right along with mine. Indeed, if I didn't already know a piece of information, surely that what be all the more reason to give it to me?

Remember, too, that I haven't accepted the premise that signs on a roadway should pertain only to the task of driving on that roadway. Here's an example of non-driving related information that is nonetheless posted along roads: in the town of Brighton in Monroe County, it's illegal to discharge a firearm (north of a certain line, I believe). Signs posted on the roads inform motorists of this, even though it's not related to motoring or navigation.

As for watersheds, even they seem more meaningful (although completely unnecessary on a highway) since I know what is lake Erie / lake Ontario, where they are, and lake watershed does ring some bells for me. That is where things add to my general knowledge. In fact, I even have an idea what would be the next basin once you pass  lake Erie watershed along Thruway towards PA.  That is just my own thing, though...

Yeah, I think that's just the issue here: because you're less interested in counties than watersheds, you're probably searching harder for the justification to mark counties. Myself, I'm interested in both but probably more in counties than watersheds; moreover, I seem to have a greater level of curiosity in general, so I'm appreciative of information for its own sake and don't feel compelled to seek justification for it.

What's interesting to me now is that my general curiosity seems to be fairly anomalous among this group, which is rather different from my earlier days of discussing roads and travel in online communities!



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[kalvado]

I take it that you don't know anything specific about Greene county? Any Greene county-specific laws that you do keep in mind when driving through the county?

Not sure how I gave you the impression that I don't know something specific about Greene County, but your general point goes right along with mine. Indeed, if I didn't already know a piece of information, surely that what be all the more reason to give it to me?

Remember, too, that I haven't accepted the premise that signs on a roadway should pertain only to the task of driving on that roadway. Here's an example of non-driving related information that is nonetheless posted along roads: in the town of Brighton in Monroe County, it's illegal to discharge a firearm (north of a certain line, I believe). Signs posted on the roads inform motorists of this, even though it's not related to motoring or navigation.

As for watersheds, even they seem more meaningful (although completely unnecessary on a highway) since I know what is lake Erie / lake Ontario, where they are, and lake watershed does ring some bells for me. That is where things add to my general knowledge. In fact, I even have an idea what would be the next basin once you pass  lake Erie watershed along Thruway towards PA.  That is just my own thing, though...

Yeah, I think that's just the issue here: because you're less interested in counties than watersheds, you're probably searching harder for the justification to mark counties. Myself, I'm interested in both but probably more in counties than watersheds; moreover, I seem to have a greater level of curiosity in general, so I'm appreciative of information for its own sake and don't feel compelled to seek justification for it.

What's interesting to me now is that my general curiosity seems to be fairly anomalous among this group, which is rather different from my earlier days of discussing roads and travel in online communities!

So I am asking directly: What do you know about Greene county?

And there is a difference between data and information...

[The Nature Boy]

New Hampshire definitely doesn't sign county lines on I-93 or I-89, Maine does, and I can't recall whether or not Vermont does.

As others have pointed out, the NYSTA is hardly alone is not signing counties.

[cl94]

New Hampshire definitely doesn't sign county lines on I-93 or I-89, Maine does, and I can't recall whether or not Vermont does.

As others have pointed out, the NYSTA is hardly alone is not signing counties.

Vermont does on Interstates. Massachusetts is sometimes.

[empirestate]

So I am asking directly: What do you know about Greene county?

Thats a pretty expansive topic; it would really help to know where your line of questioning is headed so I can give you a useful answer. What do you want to know about Greene County?



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