New York State Thruway

[kalvado]

So I am asking directly: What do you know about Greene county?

Thats a pretty expansive topic; it would really help to know where your line of questioning is headed so I can give you a useful answer. What do you want to know about Greene County?



iPhone

Can you give a 2-paragraph summary of what you think is important, and what would blend with a physical location of county line?

[empirestate]

So I am asking directly: What do you know about Greene county?

Thats a pretty expansive topic; it would really help to know where your line of questioning is headed so I can give you a useful answer. What do you want to know about Greene County?



iPhone

Can you give a 2-paragraph summary of what you think is important, and what would blend with a physical location of county line?

I mean, sure I could, but I still don't understand how that answers your question about signing county lines?


iPhone

[Duke87]

I can think of several non-roadgeeky reasons why a county line sign may be of use:
- if a particular county's sheriff has a reputation for setting up a lot of speed traps, the location of the line is good to know to avoid falling prey to one
- on that note, if the law in your state says that sheriffs may not issue citations outside of their jurisdictions, knowing the location of the line may assist in challenging one in court.
- while most online mapping services do not, paper atlases often show county lines, so knowing that you have just crossed a particular county line on a particular road may help determine your location.
- Even without a map in hand, county lines serve as landmarks that can help drivers maintain a sense of where they are and how far it is to their destination. If you know you are going to somewhere in Greene County, "are we in Greene County yet?" is something a normal person could reasonably be curious to know.

With regards to the NYS Thruway specifically, this subject tends to come up because NYSDOT is generally quite thorough at signing county lines on all of the roads it maintains. It is therefore anomalous that NYSTA is entirely the opposite, and raises the question as to why two different agencies within the same state would have different policies for this.

[vdeane]

Indeed.  Being used to NYSDOT's signage, I'm used to watching the counties go by when driving long distance.  It helps you feel like you're going somewhere.  On the Thruway, everything blends together, and you feel like you're going nowhere fast.

I'm not sure what the point of watershed signing is.  I admit, I have no interest in them whatsoever.  Nobody who has a Mob-Rule account can claim the same for counties.

[cl94]

On a different topic, all lanes were open on the Tappan Zee this afternoon. Repairs were completed enough for traffic to use the right lane. Still didn't fix the WB backup and the deck is still torn tonshreds east of the cantilever span, but those will have to wait until the new bridge.

[kalvado]

So I am asking directly: What do you know about Greene county?

Thats a pretty expansive topic; it would really help to know where your line of questioning is headed so I can give you a useful answer. What do you want to know about Greene County?



iPhone

Can you give a 2-paragraph summary of what you think is important, and what would blend with a physical location of county line?

I mean, sure I could, but I still don't understand how that answers your question about signing county lines?


iPhone

OK, so let me summarize: Greene County: Here Be Dragons

I can think of several non-roadgeeky reasons why a county line sign may be of use:
- if a particular county's sheriff has a reputation for setting up a lot of speed traps, the location of the line is good to know to avoid falling prey to one
- on that note, if the law in your state says that sheriffs may not issue citations outside of their jurisdictions, knowing the location of the line may assist in challenging one in court.

Better, but we're specifically talking Thruway. And  Thruway is patrolled by state troopers. I don't think I ever saw local police doing business on Thruway.

- Even without a map in hand, county lines serve as landmarks that can help drivers maintain a sense of where they are and how far it is to their destination. If you know you are going to somewhere in Greene County, "are we in Greene County yet?" is something a normal person could reasonably be curious to know.

Indeed.  Being used to NYSDOT's signage, I'm used to watching the counties go by when driving long distance.  It helps you feel like you're going somewhere.  On the Thruway, everything blends together, and you feel like you're going nowhere fast.

There are well known locations along Thruway which are a much better reference for me. NYC-I-84 - Poughkeepsee -Kingston - spur to Masspike - Albany - Amsterdam - Utica - Rome - Syracuse - Rochester - Buffalo. There are also distance markers to many of them to give an idea of the progress. If you think those are bad markers, I challenge you to compile a similar county list from the top of your head (may be not that difficult for those working for NYSDOT, though). In addition "past exit 21" is good enough marker for me in terms of both location and arrival time - and again, exits are more abundant and better signed.
As a matter of fact, our recent discussion about definition of upstate did reference lots of cities/towns, but I believe just Rockland and Orange counties were mentioned.

- while most online mapping services do not, paper atlases often show county lines, so knowing that you have just crossed a particular county line on a particular road may help determine your location.

Paper maps? Do you actually use those at 80 MPH? And rest areas along Thruway all have posted maps with "you are here" mark. I don't think counties are well marked on those maps, though.

SO far, NOAA radio is the best bet for me. But again, in case of actual weather emergency county is too vague of a location. 10 miles can easily make a big difference, while Thruway goes for 30 miles in Greene county.

[empirestate]

OK, so let me summarize: Greene County: Here Be Dragons

I now officially have no idea what your point is here. I'm just going to leave it alone, then, unless you want to re-articulate your question in a straightforward way.


iPhone

[kalvado]

OK, so let me summarize: Greene County: Here Be Dragons

I now officially have no idea what your point is here. I'm just going to leave it alone, then, unless you want to re-articulate your question in a straightforward way.


iPhone

What I say is that there is a pattern (some call it Google-Youtube driven) that people tend to memorize certain things without understanding a damn thing. The best I met so far was a guy who, when tasked with reading 10 pages from the book which contained answer to his question - would come back remembering every single letter from those pages - but unable to answer any questions if there was no explicit phrase in the book to answer that question. You are proud of your curiosity, so I am just probing if you learn things or memorize them.

So, if I need to tell a few words about Thruway:
-highway going across the state, north from NYC to Albany and then west to Buffalo and state border
-connects most populated cities in the state
-designated as I-87 and I-90 mostly, but does not get federal highway funding
-toll road maintained by separate perverted semi-government entity
and a few more bullets

Now, your move.
Greene county:
-....
-....

[empirestate]

OK, I get what your question is now, though I'm still not sure with how it helps satisfy you that the Thruway should mark county lines. I don't understand why there's a "your move" and a "my move"–yes, I could write a couple paragraphs on any number of aspects of New York State, having lived in the state almost continuously for nearly forty years and studied its geography and infrastructure for much of that time. But what does my knowledge of the state have to do with every other motorist and traveler on the Thruway?

But to answer your question without taking the time to write a primer on Greene County, I do gather information to learn rather than simply memorize. The data I've gotten from every map and website I've read enables me to put together a picture of a place, and to predict–often quite accurately–what the character of a road or a place might be even before I've ever visited it. I definitely like to make observations, and to derive conclusions and suppositions based on them. In fact, I'm often surprised that, as you've pointed out, so many don't apply this technique just in the normal course of life.

So, I hope that gives you the input you're looking for from me. Again, I'm curious how this relates to the topic, so, I guess...your move? :-)


iPhone

[The Nature Boy]

On the upside, I had never heard of Greene County before this whole exchange and had driven through it on the Thruway.

[Duke87]

Paper maps? Do you actually use those at 80 MPH?

From the passenger seat, yes.

What I say is that there is a pattern (some call it Google-Youtube driven) that people tend to memorize certain things without understanding a damn thing. The best I met so far was a guy who, when tasked with reading 10 pages from the book which contained answer to his question - would come back remembering every single letter from those pages - but unable to answer any questions if there was no explicit phrase in the book to answer that question. You are proud of your curiosity, so I am just probing if you learn things or memorize them.

While criticism of people memorizing instead of learning is valid, it is also irrelevant here. What does it matter if a traveler does not know anything of substance about Greene County? It is, if nothing else, a sign that tells you where you are.

Speaking of criticisms of people not using their brains to their full potential, what about people not having any sense of direction or spatial intelligence skills? Travelers need information about where they are in order to develop these things. Knowing what county you are in can contribute to this. "I am in Greene County, I therefore know that Columbia County is east of me so if I want to get there maybe I should start looking for my exit soon".

What county a person is in is only "data" instead of "information" if they don't know how to use it.

[kalvado]

So, I hope that gives you the input you're looking for from me. Again, I'm curious how this relates to the topic, so, I guess...your move? :-)

As I said, Greene county - Here Be Dragons. 

County? It is, if nothing else, a sign that tells you where you are.
[...]
"I am in Greene County, I therefore know that Columbia County is east of me so if I want to get there maybe I should start looking for my exit soon".

What county a person is in is only "data" instead of "information" if they don't know how to use it.

That may work if you're very local and know counties map. Then - my challenge of listing counties along Thruway iis still open.  But then you probably know cities/towns used for exit signs anyway. 
Otherwise - I would give directions as "exit #". Google gives directions in terms of "exit # to SR ##". So county information seem completely redundant in one case and plainly useless in the other case. I don't remember ever getting a destination with a county - typical address in US is This City, State. Only case when a non-local county comes into play is if you have to appear for the ticket in XXX county court.

[empirestate]

So, I hope that gives you the input you're looking for from me. Again, I'm curious how this relates to the topic, so, I guess...your move? :-)

As I said, Greene county - Here Be Dragons.

OK. You will have to look elsewhere for the answer to your question, I'm afraid.



iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

Regarding this county thing: Empirestate brought this up:

As for the benefit, just by being within a county you are subject to some extent to its laws and jurisdiction. It's not just a geographical curiosity, it affects day-to-day living. To the motorist that extent may be minimal, but to the traveler it could be substantial.

I was curiously looking for an answer to this.  Unfortunately, Greene County was brought up (as an example), and after several long-winded answers, the question never truly got answered. 

So, let's ask this question again, on a more broad scale:  On the Thruway, does any county have any laws, rules, statutes or anything that would impact how a law enforcement officer would site someone in one county, compared to how that officer would site someone on the Thruway in another county?

The answer should be a Yes or No answer, along with the specific laws that are different for specific counties.

[cl94]

Regarding this county thing: Empirestate brought this up:

As for the benefit, just by being within a county you are subject to some extent to its laws and jurisdiction. It's not just a geographical curiosity, it affects day-to-day living. To the motorist that extent may be minimal, but to the traveler it could be substantial.

I was curiously looking for an answer to this.  Unfortunately, Greene County was brought up (as an example), and after several long-winded answers, the question never truly got answered. 

So, let's ask this question again, on a more broad scale:  On the Thruway, does any county have any laws, rules, statutes or anything that would impact how a law enforcement officer would site someone in one county, compared to how that officer would site someone on the Thruway in another county?

The answer should be a Yes or No answer, along with the specific laws that are different for specific counties.

While not a direct answer, it is worth noting that only state troopers have jurisdiction on highways that are maintained by NYSTA, so it is unlikely that, if weird county laws did exist, they would be enforced.

[kalvado]

Regarding this county thing: Empirestate brought this up:

As for the benefit, just by being within a county you are subject to some extent to its laws and jurisdiction. It's not just a geographical curiosity, it affects day-to-day living. To the motorist that extent may be minimal, but to the traveler it could be substantial.

I was curiously looking for an answer to this.  Unfortunately, Greene County was brought up (as an example), and after several long-winded answers, the question never truly got answered. 

So, let's ask this question again, on a more broad scale:  On the Thruway, does any county have any laws, rules, statutes or anything that would impact how a law enforcement officer would site someone in one county, compared to how that officer would site someone on the Thruway in another county?

The answer should be a Yes or No answer, along with the specific laws that are different for specific counties.

While not a direct answer, it is worth noting that only state troopers have jurisdiction on highways that are maintained by NYSTA, so it is unlikely that, if weird county laws did exist, they would be enforced.

I can think of a few county laws applicable to rest areas - such as county sales tax and flagship Albany county law banning sales of products with plastic microbeads (certain types of toothpastes, scrubs etc.). But those apply mostly to businesses and likely enforced by non-LEO people.

[empirestate]

Regarding this county thing: Empirestate brought this up:

As for the benefit, just by being within a county you are subject to some extent to its laws and jurisdiction. It's not just a geographical curiosity, it affects day-to-day living. To the motorist that extent may be minimal, but to the traveler it could be substantial.

I was curiously looking for an answer to this.  Unfortunately, Greene County was brought up (as an example), and after several long-winded answers, the question never truly got answered. 

So, let's ask this question again, on a more broad scale:  On the Thruway, does any county have any laws, rules, statutes or anything that would impact how a law enforcement officer would site someone in one county, compared to how that officer would site someone on the Thruway in another county?

The answer should be a Yes or No answer, along with the specific laws that are different for specific counties.

While not a direct answer, it is worth noting that only state troopers have jurisdiction on highways that are maintained by NYSTA, so it is unlikely that, if weird county laws did exist, they would be enforced.

It's unlikely that counties have particular laws that affect the act of driving per se, since the Vehicle and Traffic law is established by the state. However, one related aspect that is overseen by the counties is the regulation of gas pumps by county bureaus of weights and measures. (It's also worth noting that an infraction issued along the Thruway would still be tried in the jurisdiction where it occurred.)

But what we are all forgetting is that travelers do more than just drive on the Thruway. They also get off, go into the towns, cities and villages, eat at the restaurants, sleep in the hotels, and talk to the local residents. There is an assumed premise that any information furnished by the Thruway should pertain only to the use of it as a motor thoroughfare, to the specific mechanical act of driving or navigating. I don't believe it's correct to apply this premise to the question; so, we needn't argue how the information is pertinent to driving, unless and until we establish that it needs to be pertinent to driving.


iPhone

[roadman]

I'm not sure what the point of watershed signing is.

Watershed signs are nothing more than a feel-good action by DOTs to appease the environmentalists.  For several years, Massachusetts had several BGS signs identifying watershed boundaries on their Interstates (the theme was "Communities Connected By Water").  As part of the 2004 agreement with FHWA to eliminate non-essential signing, the watershed signs were among the first to be removed.

[7/8]

I'm not sure what the point of watershed signing is.

Watershed signs are nothing more than a feel-good action by DOTs to appease the environmentalists.  For several years, Massachusetts had several LGS signs identifying watershed boundaries on their Interstates (the theme was "Communities Connected By Water").  As part of the 2004 agreement with FHWA to eliminate non-essential signing, the watershed signs were among the first to be removed.

I agree that watershed signing on the Thruway and other controlled-access highways definitely isn't necessary. And it's odd they would choose to sign these over counties.

But this watershed sign on Ontario highway 144 has a small parking area and a cool sign dividing the arctic and atlantic ocean watersheds. I took picture a there, since that trip was my first time being in the Arctic Ocean watershed
https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.4834943,-81.8455984,3a,60y,341.57h,82.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZlU5UR9JVyZIHw9UJ2avyg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[thenetwork]

I'm not sure what the point of watershed signing is.  I admit, I have no interest in them whatsoever. 

If you pullover to pee in a rainstorm, you'll know whose water supply you will be tainting!

[jeffandnicole]

I'm not sure what the point of watershed signing is.  I admit, I have no interest in them whatsoever. 

If you pullover to pee in a rainstorm, you'll know whose water supply you will be tainting!

NJ signed them all over as well. Never saw the point in them either.

[empirestate]

I'm not sure what the point of watershed signing is.  I admit, I have no interest in them whatsoever. 

If you pullover to pee in a rainstorm, you'll know whose water supply you will be tainting!

NJ signed them all over as well. Never saw the point in them either.

I can sort of see the significance of posting watersheds, but there are certainly other posted signs for which the justification completely eludes me (for example, signs mentioning that a certain city is an "All-America City"). However, my first reaction when seeing something I don't know the reason for isn't to conclude that there is no reason for it; instead, it makes me curious as to what the reason might be. I suppose that's why I'm far less bothered than other members here by the question of whether county line signs are necessary!

[machias]

It was late last night when I got on the Thruway eastbound at Collamer (I-481) but what in the world are the signs welcoming to the "New York State Experience" doing in the middle of the state? These signs are similar to the signs coming into the state with taste - enjoy - love - etc but in the middle of the state? I also noticed that the toll booths have smaller versions posted on them as you enter the Thruway.

Since when did it become OK for the state to post giant billboards along their highways?

[cl94]

It was late last night when I got on the Thruway eastbound at Collamer (I-481) but what in the world are the signs welcoming to the "New York State Experience" doing in the middle of the state? These signs are similar to the signs coming into the state with taste - enjoy - love - etc but in the middle of the state? I also noticed that the toll booths have smaller versions posted on them as you enter the Thruway.

Since when did it become OK for the state to post giant billboards along their highways?

I noticed those on Thursday. R7 installed some along NY 22 near the Plattsburgh Airport as well. Those are the first I have seen on a NYSDOT road that isn't I-84.

On a different topic, NYSTA put up several more advance signs for the rest area just west of Fonda recently. 2 mile and 1/2 mile advance "Taste NY Store" signs were installed. All are in FHWA fonts.

[cpzilliacus]

Watershed signs are nothing more than a feel-good action by DOTs to appease the environmentalists.  For several years, Massachusetts had several BGS signs identifying watershed boundaries on their Interstates (the theme was "Communities Connected By Water").  As part of the 2004 agreement with FHWA to eliminate non-essential signing, the watershed signs were among the first to be removed.

Major watershed divides should, IMO, be signed. 

Those would include the Continental Divide that separate the Pacific Ocean drainage from the Gulf of Mexico/Atlantic Ocean and Arctic Ocean drainage, and the following.

Eastern  (seems to be signed in places in North Carolina, West Virginia and Maryland), separating Gulf of Mexico drainage from Atlantic Ocean drainage.

Arctic (separating Arctic Ocean drainage from Hudson Bay drainage [not that many roads appear to cross this divide]).

St. Lawrence (separating Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic Ocean drainage from the St. Lawrence River watershed).

Laurentian (separating Hudson Bay drainage from the Gulf of Mexico and St. Lawrence watersheds).