New York State Thruway

[cpzilliacus]

It's unlikely that counties have particular laws that affect the act of driving per se, since the Vehicle and Traffic law is established by the state. However, one related aspect that is overseen by the counties is the regulation of gas pumps by county bureaus of weights and measures.

Though some states (I don't know about New York) have provisions in state law that only apply in certain counties and county-like jurisdictions (such as Maryland and especially Virginia, which  have "independent" cities that are for all intents their own counties).

It may also matter when it comes to issuing a driver a traffic summons or citation, because the jurisdiction in which it was issued presumably governs what county court the matter will be tried in if the person getting the ticket wants to challenge it.

[cl94]

It's unlikely that counties have particular laws that affect the act of driving per se, since the Vehicle and Traffic law is established by the state. However, one related aspect that is overseen by the counties is the regulation of gas pumps by county bureaus of weights and measures.

Though some states (I don't know about New York) have provisions in state law that only apply in certain counties and county-like jurisdictions (such as Maryland and especially Virginia, which  have "independent" cities that are for all intents their own counties).

It may also matter when it comes to issuing a driver a traffic summons or citation, because the jurisdiction in which it was issued presumably governs what county court the matter will be tried in if the person getting the ticket wants to challenge it.

New York is such a state, but the only one with significant laws applying to driving is New York City, all of which are signed at the border. Blanket speed limits do not apply to NYSTA-controlled roads.

[Roadgeek Adam]

It was late last night when I got on the Thruway eastbound at Collamer (I-481) but what in the world are the signs welcoming to the "New York State Experience" doing in the middle of the state? These signs are similar to the signs coming into the state with taste - enjoy - love - etc but in the middle of the state? I also noticed that the toll booths have smaller versions posted on them as you enter the Thruway.

Since when did it become OK for the state to post giant billboards along their highways?

I noticed those on Thursday. R7 installed some along NY 22 near the Plattsburgh Airport as well. Those are the first I have seen on a NYSDOT road that isn't I-84.

On a different topic, NYSTA put up several more advance signs for the rest area just west of Fonda recently. 2 mile and 1/2 mile advance "Taste NY Store" signs were installed. All are in FHWA fonts.

They also are up in Buffalo around Exit 50. All directions.

[vdeane]

There are even ads on TV promoting the new signs.  Seriously.

[cpzilliacus]

[Could this potentially imperil the diversion of billions of dollars from the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to PennDOT for use as transit subsidies?]

Reuters.com: New York's use of tolls to maintain canals unconstitutional: judge

A federal judge on Wednesday said the New York State Thruway Authority's practice of diverting toll revenue it collects from commercial truckers to maintain upstate canals is unconstitutional.

Chief Judge Colleen McMahon of the federal court in Manhattan agreed with the American Trucking Associations trade group that the authority unlawfully burdens interstate commerce by contributing more than $61 million annually, or roughly 10 percent of toll revenue, to maintain the canals.

McMahon called the canals a "jewel in the crown" for New York, which benefits from tourism revenue they generate, but said they offered no benefit to truckers.

[vdeane]

Those truckers are going to be in for a rude awakening next year when the Canals Corporation is transferred to the Power Authority and tolls remain the same; the savings from no longer maintaining the canals will go towards ending the subsidy they've been getting from the NY state budget recently, not towards lowering tolls.

I'm surprised the Thruway didn't try to argue something along the lines of "we use the subsidy money for the canals, not the tolls".

Perhaps the judge should take a look at the MTA crossings.  The canals were maintained by the Thruway Authority, so it wasn't like they were transferring money to another agency, so shouldn't the MTA and PANYNJ diversions both be unconstitutional too?

[jeffandnicole]

[Could this potentially imperil the diversion of billions of dollars from the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to PennDOT for use as transit subsidies?]

It would greatly lie on the wording of the various laws and agreements.  I want to say the tolls aren't directly paying for the road improvements.  They are paying the *bonds*, which were offered to investors, which pay for the road improvements.  And the bond agreements with investors would have the specific language necessary to support such funding.

Also, I think in PA the tolls are supporting other road and transit projects.  It'll be a bit harder for the ATA to say that the PTC burdens interstate commerce by using their money on roads, trains and buses that directly support interstate commerce, versus NY State which seemed to argue the canals are a tourist destination.

In NJ, I see quite often NJDOT paying for canal improvements along the highway system.  I don't know much about canals and how they're funded, but how does funding work in NY State?  If they are a completely separate division of state government subject to its own funding mechanism, I could see how transportation and canals have nothing to do with each other in NY.

It would be interesting though if the ATA uses this to fight other states in their toll rates.

[kalvado]

[Could this potentially imperil the diversion of billions of dollars from the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to PennDOT for use as transit subsidies?]

It would greatly lie on the wording of the various laws and agreements.  I want to say the tolls aren't directly paying for the road improvements.  They are paying the *bonds*, which were offered to investors, which pay for the road improvements.  And the bond agreements with investors would have the specific language necessary to support such funding.

Also, I think in PA the tolls are supporting other road and transit projects.  It'll be a bit harder for the ATA to say that the PTC burdens interstate commerce by using their money on roads, trains and buses that directly support interstate commerce, versus NY State which seemed to argue the canals are a tourist destination.

In NJ, I see quite often NJDOT paying for canal improvements along the highway system.  I don't know much about canals and how they're funded, but how does funding work in NY State?  If they are a completely separate division of state government subject to its own funding mechanism, I could see how transportation and canals have nothing to do with each other in NY.

It would be interesting though if the ATA uses this to fight other states in their toll rates.

NYS Thruway maybe somewhat special case here. I believe bonds are paid off, and tolls were supposed to disappear when that happened... At least that is a popular urban legend.
And Canal is regulated by a special article in NYS constitution, no more no less. Apparently it was much more useful at some point.

[cl94]

It's also important to note that the tolls from the downstate crossings fund mass transit that gets many vehicles off the road, as opposed to something that is nowadays used exclusively for rich people recreation.

[empirestate]

It's also important to note that the tolls from the downstate crossings fund mass transit that gets many vehicles off the road, as opposed to something that is nowadays used exclusively for rich people recreation.

? We were never rich, yet used the canals all the time for recreation.


iPhone

[Buffaboy]

It's also important to note that the tolls from the downstate crossings fund mass transit that gets many vehicles off the road, as opposed to something that is nowadays used exclusively for rich people recreation.

If upstate still had a solid manufacturing base, it could function as the BARGE canal.

[cpzilliacus]

Also, I think in PA the tolls are supporting other road and transit projects.  It'll be a bit harder for the ATA to say that the PTC burdens interstate commerce by using their money on roads, trains and buses that directly support interstate commerce, versus NY State which seemed to argue the canals are a tourist destination.

The original Act 44 law (which was drafted with the assumption that PTC would start to collect millions of dollars in tolls from I-80 users, later denied by the USDOT under the W. Bush Administration and again under Obama) was to fund off-Turnpike highway projects and an assortment of transit subsidies.

With the passage of Act 89 in 2013, the Pennsylvania legislature directed that all of the PTC payments to PennDOT be to: 

"support transit capital, operating, multi-modal and other non-highway programs" [words lifted directly from the Pennsylvania Turnpike's Web site here]

[cpzilliacus]

If upstate still had a solid manufacturing base, it could function as the BARGE canal.

I once heard (might have been at TRB) that the New York State canal system does carry some freight traffic, though I do not know how much.

[kalvado]

If upstate still had a solid manufacturing base, it could function as the BARGE canal.

I once heard (might have been at TRB) that the New York State canal system does carry some freight traffic, though I do not know how much.

http://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Cargo-barges-traffic-increases-on-New-York-canal-5499703.php
not the latest data, though. Considering this is seasonal, I don't see manufacturers relying on that, though.
GE maybe an exception - I believe they are talking about using canal to barge oversize cargo from Schenectady plant to port of Albany and transfer to ocean-going boats over there. But that is only a small portion of canal..

[cl94]

If upstate still had a solid manufacturing base, it could function as the BARGE canal.

I once heard (might have been at TRB) that the New York State canal system does carry some freight traffic, though I do not know how much.

http://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Cargo-barges-traffic-increases-on-New-York-canal-5499703.php
not the latest data, though. Considering this is seasonal, I don't see manufacturers relying on that, though.
GE maybe an exception - I believe they are talking about using canal to barge oversize cargo from Schenectady plant to port of Albany and transfer to ocean-going boats over there. But that is only a small portion of canal..

The portions used for freight traffic are mainly east of Schenectady, south of Hudson Falls (dredging project), and the Black Rock lock (traffic to/from Tonawanda). Nowhere else is there any real industrial activity along the canal and anything between the endpoints would just use the St. Lawrence Seaway.

[seicer]

Nearly all barge traffic is for commodities, not for general freight. You aren't shipping intermodal containers down the Erie as that requires deep water ports and infrastructure that is well beyond the capability of the canal.

Early canals served mills for granaries and light industries, along with passengers, using packet boats and slightly larger boats for humans. Modernization of the Erie allowed for modern day barges and tugs to use the waterway but it was not cost effective. Passengers began abandoning the Erie for adjoining railroads while freight slowly declined due to railroads and then trucks.

The last commercial ship on the Erie ended circa 1994.

[ixnay]

Nearly all barge traffic is for commodities, not for general freight. You aren't shipping intermodal containers down the Erie as that requires deep water ports and infrastructure that is well beyond the capability of the canal.

Early canals served mills for granaries and light industries, along with passengers, using packet boats and slightly larger boats for humans. Modernization of the Erie allowed for modern day barges and tugs to use the waterway but it was not cost effective. Passengers began abandoning the Erie for adjoining railroads while freight slowly declined due to railroads and then trucks.

The last commercial ship on the Erie ended circa 1994.

http://www.canals.ny.gov/history/history.html

ixnay

[cl94]

Per Facebook: Port Byron parking area and visitor center open

[route17fan]

Just an observation after visiting the state about a week ago (and if noted previously, my apologies) - lights installed at exit gore signs for exits 57, 49, and 48. I neglected to take pictures because I was not expecting them. 

[vdeane]

Photo:


I think it's interesting that the Thruway is illuminating signs rather than simply replacing them with ones with better reflectivity.  I would think the latter would be less expensive.

[cl94]

I think it's interesting that the Thruway is illuminating signs rather than simply replacing them with ones with better reflectivity.  I would think the latter would be less expensive.

I'd take it over their Clearview. 48A went up a couple years ago. Depends on how much the solar array costs.

[SignBridge]

Vdeane, it seems like NY Thruway Authority is always behind the curve re: directional signing. Their cousins at NYSDOT are way ahead of them. Here in Region-10 on Long Island most overhead signs have had their lighting removed and new high-reflective sheeting signs have replaced the older ones in the last few years.

[GenExpwy]

It seems to me that gore signs get smashed into more often than other freeway signs. Wouldn't adding lights to them just increase the repair bill?

[kalvado]

It seems to me that gore signs get smashed into more often than other freeway signs. Wouldn't adding lights to them just increase the repair bill?

Between higher cost of individual repair and reduced number of accidents due to better visibility... It may very well end up as a break-even or better. Besides, crash costs can also be part of equation.

[seicer]

I thought the lighting was only in the Seneca Nation territory? I wasn't aware it had expanded outward.