New York State Thruway

[bluecountry]

Will the thruway authority's capital plans ever become as ambitious as the NJTA

the thruway authority oversees something like double or triple the lane mileage of the njta, so who's to say?

How about 3 lanes each way for a total of 6 between Exit 16 (NY-17, Harriman) and Exit 23 (I-787) outside Albany?

Not needed.

[webny99]

How about 3 lanes each way for a total of 6 between Exit 16 (NY-17, Harriman) and Exit 23 (I-787) outside Albany?

Not needed.

Maybe not this year, but certainly needed from June to October every other year.

[kalvado]

Will the thruway authority's capital plans ever become as ambitious as the NJTA

the thruway authority oversees something like double or triple the lane mileage of the njta, so who's to say?

How about 3 lanes each way for a total of 6 between Exit 16 (NY-17, Harriman) and Exit 23 (I-787) outside Albany?

Not needed.

Not really obvious. I don't know what are the k- and D- factors for Thruway are. Those may be reasonably low, but truck percentage is high. Anyway, Highway Capacity Manual gives 21 to 37 AADT for LOS B in rolling terrain for a 4-lane road. I would expect LOS B range of 30-35 maybe.
Published data for that stretch is minimum of 37, and is 43 anywhere south of Kingston.  So LOS C or worse is all but certain along entire length...   
It is not the end of the world, as far as I remember SC initiated I-95 widening at 50 AADT. SO situation is "survivable", but  "not needed" is definitely an optimistic statement.
But since NYSTA just paid for new Tappan Zee bridge (aka Daddy's bridge), don't hold your breath. 

[cl94]

There are a couple factors at play here:

• Between 18 and 23, traffic counts are generally higher on weekends than on weekdays. Thus, the cost-benefit analysis produces fewer benefits relative to cost than if peak traffic occurred on weekdays.
• NYSTA has no money. As it is, they're barely scraping up enough money to repair bridges and there are a few major spans that will likely require replacement or major rehab in the coming decade. Toll increases are a political non-starter.

Would I pay a little more to travel on a Thruway that is mostly 6+ lanes? Absolutely, and not just because it's routinely operating at LOS D or worse. But the chances of that happening anytime soon are somewhere between slim and none.

[RobbieL2415]

There are a couple factors at play here:

• Between 18 and 23, traffic counts are generally higher on weekends than on weekdays. Thus, the cost-benefit analysis produces fewer benefits relative to cost than if peak traffic occurred on weekdays.
• NYSTA has no money. As it is, they're barely scraping up enough money to repair bridges and there are a few major spans that will likely require replacement or major rehab in the coming decade. Toll increases are a political non-starter.

Would I pay a little more to travel on a Thruway that is mostly 6+ lanes? Absolutely, and not just because it's routinely operating at LOS D or worse. But the chances of that happening anytime soon are somewhere between slim and none.

Have they every lobbied for the removal/dieting of the TSP, seeing as how it's a free alternative for cars to get to Albany?

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

There are a couple factors at play here:

• Between 18 and 23, traffic counts are generally higher on weekends than on weekdays. Thus, the cost-benefit analysis produces fewer benefits relative to cost than if peak traffic occurred on weekdays.
• NYSTA has no money. As it is, they're barely scraping up enough money to repair bridges and there are a few major spans that will likely require replacement or major rehab in the coming decade. Toll increases are a political non-starter.

Would I pay a little more to travel on a Thruway that is mostly 6+ lanes? Absolutely, and not just because it's routinely operating at LOS D or worse. But the chances of that happening anytime soon are somewhere between slim and none.

Have they every lobbied for the removal/dieting of the TSP, seeing as how it's a free alternative for cars to get to Albany?

As far as shunpikes go, I don't think the TSP is one of the more egregious ones. The Taconic is a pretty white-knuckle ride through Putnam and Southern Dutchess counties, and at night deer are a big risk. I live in Southern Dutchess and I don't take the Taconic to or from Albany after dark. The (fairly reasonable) toll on the Thruway is more than worth it for me for a significantly lower chance of hitting a deer. Even when I do take the Taconic I usually cut over to the Thruway on the Rip Van Winkle to save some time. Others agree with me because the northern part of the Taconic is desolate 95% of the time.

Since the Taconic is so regionally important for the Hudson Valley, downgrading the road in any way is simply not feasible.

[cpzilliacus]

There are a couple factors at play here:

• Between 18 and 23, traffic counts are generally higher on weekends than on weekdays. Thus, the cost-benefit analysis produces fewer benefits relative to cost than if peak traffic occurred on weekdays.

I agree.  I am not sure I have ever driven any part of the New York State Thruway network on a weekday, so all of my experience on it is on weekdays and holidays.

• NYSTA has no money. As it is, they're barely scraping up enough money to repair bridges and there are a few major spans that will likely require replacement or major rehab in the coming decade. Toll increases are a political non-starter.

The current governor of New York is apparently opposed to any increase in Thruway tolls.

Would I pay a little more to travel on a Thruway that is mostly 6+ lanes? Absolutely, and not just because it's routinely operating at LOS D or worse. But the chances of that happening anytime soon are somewhere between slim and none.

Another state toll road that was nearly all four lanes divided is the Pennsylvania Turnpike (east-west mainline and the Northeast Extension).  The parts of the Penn Pike that have been reconstructed and widened to six lanes represent a big improvement for Turnpike customers paying those steep and ever-increasing tolls.

[Rothman]

I think NYSTA claiming poverty is more than a little suspicious.

[kalvado]

I think NYSTA claiming poverty is more than a little suspicious.

They are on the hook for the bridge debt payment ($300M in 2020) and they have high capital expenses right now - cashless project costs something like $250M in 2020 and $500M total.
Without that, things will be just fine. Not "lets do 6 lanes" fine, but good enough for a government job.

[Rothman]

I think NYSTA claiming poverty is more than a little suspicious.

They are on the hook for the bridge debt payment ($300M in 2020) and they have high capital expenses right now - cashless project costs something like $250M in 2020 and $500M total.
Without that, things will be just fine. Not "lets do 6 lanes" fine, but good enough for a government job.

I'm sure their finances are above board.

[kalvado]

I think NYSTA claiming poverty is more than a little suspicious.

They are on the hook for the bridge debt payment ($300M in 2020) and they have high capital expenses right now - cashless project costs something like $250M in 2020 and $500M total.
Without that, things will be just fine. Not "lets do 6 lanes" fine, but good enough for a government job.

I'm sure their finances are above board.

Yes, but their revenues and expenses are likely reported somewhat honestly. And debt service is the line they need to borrow for.  Borrowing for cashless transition is probably reasonable, but borrowing to keep debt paid... 

I am pretty sure that taking on that debt was ordered from above, though

[Alps]

I think NYSTA claiming poverty is more than a little suspicious.

They are on the hook for the bridge debt payment ($300M in 2020) and they have high capital expenses right now - cashless project costs something like $250M in 2020 and $500M total.
Without that, things will be just fine. Not "lets do 6 lanes" fine, but good enough for a government job.

I'm sure their finances are above board.

Yes, but their revenues and expenses are likely reported somewhat honestly. And debt service is the line they need to borrow for.  Borrowing for cashless transition is probably reasonable, but borrowing to keep debt paid... 

I am pretty sure that taking on that debt was ordered from above, though

I thought 2020 was the last year before they were allowed to raise tolls, in the agreement to replace the bridge. Maybe that is specific to the bridge itself, but I expect it to happen soon.

[cl94]

I thought 2020 was the last year before they were allowed to raise tolls, in the agreement to replace the bridge. Maybe that is specific to the bridge itself, but I expect it to happen soon.

Bridge tolls are being hiked in 2021 and 2022 at minimum. Systemwide tolls are being hiked for cash and OOS users in 2021 and, given the amount of crap I'm hearing Upstate about it, it might be a while before there's another one.

[SignBridge]

Wasn't the new Tappan Zee Bridge paid for with some degree of Federal funding?

[cpzilliacus]

I thought 2020 was the last year before they were allowed to raise tolls, in the agreement to replace the bridge. Maybe that is specific to the bridge itself, but I expect it to happen soon.

Bridge tolls are being hiked in 2021 and 2022 at minimum. Systemwide tolls are being hiked for cash and OOS users in 2021 and, given the amount of crap I'm hearing Upstate about it, it might be a while before there's another one.

Do you mean bridge tolls on the Thruway network or New York State Bridge Authority tolls?  Or both?

[kalvado]

Wasn't the new Tappan Zee Bridge paid for with some degree of Federal funding?

No federal funds for toll roads. Some federal repayable loans at most.
Despite Senator Billary taking a glory ride alongside with Cuomo II on bridge opening, she didn't do much to help with the project.
With the current state of affairs, tolls have to go up by a factor of 1.5 at least. Gradual increase would be taken easier, but this is the result of populist measures - steep catch-up. Will certainly result in more upstate-downstate tensions, as "poor upstate will subsidize rich downstate commuters" is not totally untrue in this case.

[Rothman]

Wasn't the new Tappan Zee Bridge paid for with some degree of Federal funding?

No federal funds for toll roads. Some federal repayable loans at most.
Despite Senator Billary taking a glory ride alongside with Cuomo II on bridge opening, she didn't do much to help with the project.
With the current state of affairs, tolls have to go up by a factor of 1.5 at least. Gradual increase would be taken easier, but this is the result of populist measures - steep catch-up. Will certainly result in more upstate-downstate tensions, as "poor upstate will subsidize rich downstate commuters" is not totally untrue in this case.

Well...$1.6 billion isn't chump change and that's what USDOT loaned NY for the project.

[kalvado]

Wasn't the new Tappan Zee Bridge paid for with some degree of Federal funding?

No federal funds for toll roads. Some federal repayable loans at most.
Despite Senator Billary taking a glory ride alongside with Cuomo II on bridge opening, she didn't do much to help with the project.
With the current state of affairs, tolls have to go up by a factor of 1.5 at least. Gradual increase would be taken easier, but this is the result of populist measures - steep catch-up. Will certainly result in more upstate-downstate tensions, as "poor upstate will subsidize rich downstate commuters" is not totally untrue in this case.

Well...$1.6 billion isn't chump change and that's what USDOT loaned NY for the project.

Highlighted the keyword here

[cl94]

I thought 2020 was the last year before they were allowed to raise tolls, in the agreement to replace the bridge. Maybe that is specific to the bridge itself, but I expect it to happen soon.

Bridge tolls are being hiked in 2021 and 2022 at minimum. Systemwide tolls are being hiked for cash and OOS users in 2021 and, given the amount of crap I'm hearing Upstate about it, it might be a while before there's another one.

Do you mean bridge tolls on the Thruway network or New York State Bridge Authority tolls?  Or both?

I meant the new bridge across the Tappan Zee in particular, but the other Thruway system bridge tolls are increasing as part of the 2021 systemwide increase. Bridge Authority has a separate toll increase occurring in 2021 as well that will coincide with introduction of AET on the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge.

[cpzilliacus]

With the current state of affairs, tolls have to go up by a factor of 1.5 at least. Gradual increase would be taken easier, but this is the result of populist measures - steep catch-up. Will certainly result in more upstate-downstate tensions, as "poor upstate will subsidize rich downstate commuters" is not totally untrue in this case.

Sounds like Pennsylvania and their motor fuel taxes, kept at the same (low) level as the bridges (especially) and pavement got worse and worse.  Finally, Act 89 rammed through a very steep (by U.S. standards) increase in the tax rates on Diesel fuel and gasoline for an assortment of repairs to the state highway system, especially the hundreds of structurally deficient bridges.

[kalvado]

I wnt through a few of those open road gantries yesterday's night. They are apparently live, even if billing is still the old style.
One thing I don't like is pretty bright light into the face as you drive under the gantry.
Is it just me, or Masspike actually uses something less intrusive? IR seems an obvious option..

[MASTERNC]

I wnt through a few of those open road gantries yesterday's night. They are apparently live, even if billing is still the old style.
One thing I don't like is pretty bright light into the face as you drive under the gantry.
Is it just me, or Masspike actually uses something less intrusive? IR seems an obvious option..

PA uses the same bright lights for its overhead gantries.  Think Delaware's lights are fairly bright on I-95 as well.  The MD gantry I pass on US 40 doesn't seem as bad.

[02 Park Ave]

I wnt through a few of those open road gantries yesterday's night. They are apparently live, even if billing is still the old style.
One thing I don't like is pretty bright light into the face as you drive under the gantry.
Is it just me, or Masspike actually uses something less intrusive? IR seems an obvious option..

Perhaps the use of Low Pressure Sodium lighting would be better there.  It disturbs the human circadian rhythm the least of all lighting sources.

[seicer]

The bright LED lighting is necessary for the operation of the cameras that capture the plates on the vehicles. They are basically strobe lights that activate when a vehicle passes a sensor. To minimize the impact of having bright lights flash at motorists at night, a set of lights always remain on while the strobes fire. You can see this work in a different setting with the strobe lights at toll plazas that don't require having always-on LED lights.

--

On a related note, I didn't realize the concrete pavement used at the toiling sites was formed off-site and laid into place: https://www.fortmiller.com/first-sections-of-super-slab-installed-on-nys-thruway-cashless-tolling-project/

[vdeane]

They must think they're getting close to activation, because when I was down near exit 16 today I noticed that the overhead signs for the ORT lanes have been taken down.  A couple of the sign structures have covered up signs for the AET gantry, though the two mile advance only has the sign for exit 16.  There are a couple VMS signs saying "E-ZPass keep left" and "cash keep right".

There are also new covered-up signs on I-90 west approaching the exit 24 toll booth.  Not sure what those are exactly.