New York State Thruway

[webny99]

I wish I could find it now, but there was a discussion a while back about a potential Thruway widening from Exit 21A to 23 and there was some debate as to whether it was busier than Exit 23-24 and whether Exit 23 was an appropriate location for a lane drop. So I ran a detailed comparison of 23-24 (which was widened a few years ago) to 22-23 (which is still four lanes). Results were interesting, shown below.

Day	ADT 22-23	ADT 23-24	Difference
Sun	52475	46253	22-23 +6223
Mon	47963	47846	22-23 +116
Tues	44559	46374	23-24 (-1815)
Wed	45539	47202	23-24 (-1663)
Thurs	50550	50862	23-24 (-312)
Fri	58119	55782	22-23 +2337
Sat	46273	42125	22-23 +4148
TOTAL	49561	48224	22-23 +1337

It's clear that 23-24 has more commuter traffic, while 22-23 has more long-distance/weekend traffic between Albany and NYC. The two counteract to some degree, resulting in 23-24 generally being busier on weekdays and 22-23 being busier Fri-Sun and slightly busier overall. Either way, there's a pretty strong case that 23 is not an ideal location for a SB lane drop (especially Sat-Sun) and that 21A-23 should also be widened.

[kalvado]

I wish I could find it now, but there was a discussion a while back about a potential Thruway widening from Exit 21A to 23 and there was some debate as to whether it was busier than Exit 23-24 and whether Exit 23 was an appropriate location for a lane drop. So I ran a detailed comparison of 23-24 (which was widened a few years ago) to 22-23 (which is still four lanes). Results were interesting, shown below.

Day	ADT 22-23	ADT 23-24	Difference
Sun	52475	46253	22-23 +6223
Mon	47963	47846	22-23 +116
Tues	44559	46374	23-24 (-1815)
Wed	45539	47202	23-24 (-1663)
Thurs	50550	50862	23-24 (-312)
Fri	58119	55782	22-23 +2337
Sat	46273	42125	22-23 +4148
TOTAL	49561	48224	22-23 +1337

It's clear that 23-24 has more commuter traffic, while 22-23 has more long-distance/weekend traffic between Albany and NYC. The two counteract to some degree, resulting in 23-24 generally being busier on weekdays and 22-23 being busier Fri-Sun and slightly busier overall. Either way, there's a pretty strong case that 23 is not an ideal location for a SB lane drop (especially Sat-Sun) and that 21A-23 should also be widened.

If you are talking about NYC traffic being the thing, can you also show say 18-19? If that weekend traffic is indeed from NYC, weekends should be similary busy down there.
Alternative explanation may be, for example, more local Albany to Catskill; and that may go in a different direction compared to NYC traffic - reducing per-lane load.
Yet again 21A-B1-B2 may be another traffic source/sink

[webny99]

...
It's clear that 23-24 has more commuter traffic, while 22-23 has more long-distance/weekend traffic between Albany and NYC. The two counteract to some degree, resulting in 23-24 generally being busier on weekdays and 22-23 being busier Fri-Sun and slightly busier overall. Either way, there's a pretty strong case that 23 is not an ideal location for a SB lane drop (especially Sat-Sun) and that 21A-23 should also be widened.

If you are talking about NYC traffic being the thing, can you also show say 18-19? If that weekend traffic is indeed from NYC, weekends should be similary busy down there.

Yes, I have no doubt that NYC traffic to/from Albany and beyond contributes to the traffic on Fri-Sun. Unfortunately, there's no mainline gantries between 22 and Harriman, so the only data for 18-19 would be whatever is in the TDV, which is rather outdated (2019 or older).

[lstone19]

Yes, I have no doubt that NYC traffic to/from Albany and beyond contributes to the traffic on Fri-Sun. Unfortunately, there's no mainline gantries between 22 and Harriman, so the only data for 18-19 would be whatever is in the TDV, which is rather outdated (2019 or older).

Years ago, when we were regularly driving up the Thruway to the Northway, once NY 7 was completed between I-787 and the Northway, we frequently went Thruway to I-787 to NY 7 to the Northway to avoid the backup at Exit 24. 24 wasn't as bad southbound (ticket distribution is never as slow as paying) so did not go 787/7 SB as much as we did NB.

[webny99]

Yes, I have no doubt that NYC traffic to/from Albany and beyond contributes to the traffic on Fri-Sun. Unfortunately, there's no mainline gantries between 22 and Harriman, so the only data for 18-19 would be whatever is in the TDV, which is rather outdated (2019 or older).

Years ago, when we were regularly driving up the Thruway to the Northway, once NY 7 was completed between I-787 and the Northway, we frequently went Thruway to I-787 to NY 7 to the Northway to avoid the backup at Exit 24. 24 wasn't as bad southbound (ticket distribution is never as slow as paying) so did not go 787/7 SB as much as we did NB.

NB at I-787 drops off by an average of 2-3k on summer Fridays, so I have to think there's at least some traffic still doing that, even with AET in place. Nowadays, NY 7 to I-87 NB is a persistent bottleneck, but you have to deal with that on either route.

[MASTERNC]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

[lstone19]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

It makes sense as only NYS residents can get a New York EZ-Pass without a monthly fee unless they get an "On the Go" one so it lets them stick it to non-NY residents who don't vote in NY. So much of the promise of EZ-Pass has been lost once politicians realized they could stick it to non-residents. And it's silly for me that now living in Nevada and I have two separate EZ-Pass accounts - the Illinois one I've had since living there and now a NY one with a NYSTA On-the-Go transponder for what will be a few NY trips in the next couple of years (I'd drop the Illinois one but I'm sure if I did, Illinois would join the "charge other agencies more" club and Illinois will always be where most of my use is.

[jmacswimmer]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

It makes sense as only NYS residents can get a New York EZ-Pass without a monthly fee unless they get an "On the Go" one so it lets them stick it to non-NY residents who don't vote in NY. So much of the promise of EZ-Pass has been lost once politicians realized they could stick it to non-residents. And it's silly for me that now living in Nevada and I have two separate EZ-Pass accounts - the Illinois one I've had since living there and now a NY one with a NYSTA On-the-Go transponder for what will be a few NY trips in the next couple of years (I'd drop the Illinois one but I'm sure if I did, Illinois would join the "charge other agencies more" club and Illinois will always be where most of my use is.

I intend to pick up a NYSTA on-the-go tag whenever I'm next in Upstate New York for these exact reasons - even just crossing the Tappan Zee periodically (which is my most frequent toll point within NYS) will make it worth it as the out-of-state/toll-by-mail rate jumps to almost double the in-state rate. Agreed that it feels somewhat silly to open a 2nd E-ZPass account (for me the NY account would be on top of my primary MD one) but it also seems oddly satisfying as a way of, to borrow your words, sticking it back to NYSTA for trying to stick it to non-NY residents 

But overall it is a shame that almost every toll agency has adopted this model and, when questioned about it, give the same canned response of "well anyone can get our transponder regardless of address."

[MASTERNC]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

It makes sense as only NYS residents can get a New York EZ-Pass without a monthly fee unless they get an "On the Go" one so it lets them stick it to non-NY residents who don't vote in NY. So much of the promise of EZ-Pass has been lost once politicians realized they could stick it to non-residents. And it's silly for me that now living in Nevada and I have two separate EZ-Pass accounts - the Illinois one I've had since living there and now a NY one with a NYSTA On-the-Go transponder for what will be a few NY trips in the next couple of years (I'd drop the Illinois one but I'm sure if I did, Illinois would join the "charge other agencies more" club and Illinois will always be where most of my use is.

My wife's car has a NY transponder (with a spare one sitting in the house) and I have an NC one for the Flex capability in case of travel through the DC area.  It's a pain but it gives us the flexibility.

[kalvado]

NYSTA for trying to stick it to non-NY residents 

But overall it is a shame that almost every toll agency has adopted this model and, when questioned about it, give the same canned response of "well anyone can get our transponder regardless of address."

That's the way court precedent is set...

[vdeane]

Perhaps we should start a campaign (not just here, also in the real world) to petition our congressional representatives to make this practice illegal.  And maybe give the interoperability mandate some teeth while they're at it, too.  I believe one of our forum members has been fond of the "remove tax exempt status from the bonds if they don't comply" idea for forcing the toll agencies to play ball...

[jeffandnicole]

Because honestly, any such mandate will not be tollpayer-friendly. The toll agencies will just say, ok, we'll eliminate the discount for everyone and make everyone pay the maximum fare.

[RobbieL2415]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

It makes sense as only NYS residents can get a New York EZ-Pass without a monthly fee unless they get an "On the Go" one so it lets them stick it to non-NY residents who don't vote in NY. So much of the promise of EZ-Pass has been lost once politicians realized they could stick it to non-residents. And it's silly for me that now living in Nevada and I have two separate EZ-Pass accounts - the Illinois one I've had since living there and now a NY one with a NYSTA On-the-Go transponder for what will be a few NY trips in the next couple of years (I'd drop the Illinois one but I'm sure if I did, Illinois would join the "charge other agencies more" club and Illinois will always be where most of my use is.

I'm not a NYS resident and I have a MTA B&T issued EZPass. Does it have to be one issued by the Thruway Authority?

[MASTERNC]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

It makes sense as only NYS residents can get a New York EZ-Pass without a monthly fee unless they get an "On the Go" one so it lets them stick it to non-NY residents who don't vote in NY. So much of the promise of EZ-Pass has been lost once politicians realized they could stick it to non-residents. And it's silly for me that now living in Nevada and I have two separate EZ-Pass accounts - the Illinois one I've had since living there and now a NY one with a NYSTA On-the-Go transponder for what will be a few NY trips in the next couple of years (I'd drop the Illinois one but I'm sure if I did, Illinois would join the "charge other agencies more" club and Illinois will always be where most of my use is.

I'm not a NYS resident and I have a MTA B&T issued EZPass. Does it have to be one issued by the Thruway Authority?

MTA, NYSTA, and the Port Authority all use the same E-ZPass system, so any of those qualifies for the lower tolls.

[storm2k]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

It's a quick and easy way for the agencies to make increased revenue without in-state constituents feeling as much pain. Plenty of out of state drivers use their toll roads and they can collect much more revenue from them this way. Really is making me consider if I should get a NY issued tag and just forgo the useless discounts from the NJ Turnpike Authority.

[vdeane]

I just went by the Ulster service area today.  First time since it closed several months ago.  They only just got around to beginning demolition.  Not sure what they were doing all that time (if anything), but it seems that a lot of the closed sites just sit dormant without work going on.  Makes me wonder about Guilderland, now, but I'm not sure how that could reopen on time if it needs to be rebuilt.

On the other discussion, "soak the strangers" styles of taxes/fees/tolls should be illegal.  For a country that was supposedly founded on "no taxation without representation", we sure seem to be huge fans of it, at least when we're taxing others without representation.

[kalvado]

I just went by the Ulster service area today.  First time since it closed several months ago.  They only just got around to beginning demolition.  Not sure what they were doing all that time (if anything), but it seems that a lot of the closed sites just sit dormant without work going on.  Makes me wonder about Guilderland, now, but I'm not sure how that could reopen on time if it needs to be rebuilt.

On the other discussion, "soak the strangers" styles of taxes/fees/tolls should be illegal.  For a country that was supposedly founded on "no taxation without representation", we sure seem to be huge fans of it, at least when we're taxing others without representation.

Do as I say, not as I do!

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

It's a quick and easy way for the agencies to make increased revenue without in-state constituents feeling as much pain. Plenty of out of state drivers use their toll roads and they can collect much more revenue from them this way. Really is making me consider if I should get a NY issued tag and just forgo the useless discounts from the NJ Turnpike Authority.

The NJ EZ-Pass seems almost useless to me, the off-peak discounts are too small and limited to matter. I only drive in NYC like once a month and it's enough to make the NY tag a no-brainer.

[Rothman]

I just went by the Ulster service area today.  First time since it closed several months ago.  They only just got around to beginning demolition.  Not sure what they were doing all that time (if anything), but it seems that a lot of the closed sites just sit dormant without work going on.  Makes me wonder about Guilderland, now, but I'm not sure how that could reopen on time if it needs to be rebuilt.

On the other discussion, "soak the strangers" styles of taxes/fees/tolls should be illegal.  For a country that was supposedly founded on "no taxation without representation", we sure seem to be huge fans of it, at least when we're taxing others without representation.

Remember that the asking for more money to cover cost overages debacle stalled construction.

[jeffandnicole]

I just went by the Ulster service area today.  First time since it closed several months ago.  They only just got around to beginning demolition.  Not sure what they were doing all that time (if anything), but it seems that a lot of the closed sites just sit dormant without work going on.  Makes me wonder about Guilderland, now, but I'm not sure how that could reopen on time if it needs to be rebuilt.

How old were these buildings?  Did they have asbestos that needed to be removed first?

[Flyer78]

If I recall correctly Ulster was one that was fully rebuilt in the early 90s to the "Adirondack Lodge" style building, so I would doubt asbestos was the issue.

Even facilities that were not total tear-downs the last time most likely were fully abated as part of that renovation cycle.

[vdeane]

I just went by the Ulster service area today.  First time since it closed several months ago.  They only just got around to beginning demolition.  Not sure what they were doing all that time (if anything), but it seems that a lot of the closed sites just sit dormant without work going on.  Makes me wonder about Guilderland, now, but I'm not sure how that could reopen on time if it needs to be rebuilt.

On the other discussion, "soak the strangers" styles of taxes/fees/tolls should be illegal.  For a country that was supposedly founded on "no taxation without representation", we sure seem to be huge fans of it, at least when we're taxing others without representation.

Remember that the asking for more money to cover cost overages debacle stalled construction.

I recall them asking for it and the state saying no, but I hadn't heard anything since on what, if any, impacts it had.  Also note that I'm not referencing the original schedule (long since taken down), but the dates listed on the online map, which were recently changed from "TBD" for most phase 2 locations, so they should be reasonably current.  Plus, wouldn't it be financially better to operate buildings they aren't ready to rebuild for the convenience store sales than to let them sit unused?

[The Nature Boy]

We're way past the point of needing a national interoperable transponder program. The eastern half of the country does fine with EZPass (though there are issues, like what is outlined here) but once you go west of the Mississippi, it's a fucking checkerboard.

[webny99]

Two things.
1) Quick note: the "pending" row may never get resolved. Sometimes a counter goes down. It may be charging tolls but not recording transactions enough to spit back volumes to you. I wish you luck though.

Yup, I'm not expecting to hear anything on the missing data for at least a week, given the previous response times. And even then, my expectations are not high. However, the missing data is sporadic enough (approx. 2-5 WB values per day; EB was perfectly fine) that I'm hoping there was an issue with data transfer and not the collection site itself.

I heard back today regarding the missing data, but no luck obtaining it. I'll have to live with just the EB data, as finding and estimating the missing values isn't worth the time sink.

Per our internal databases that contain this information, this data is listed as "unaudited" . All of the missing data indicates values of 0 (zero). Staff believes there may have been an issue with the counting mechanism.

[Alps]

Sounds like the toll increase is being voted on next week.  Unfortunately, the non-NY E-ZPass rate is still the same as the toll-by-plate rate, which makes no sense.

It's a quick and easy way for the agencies to make increased revenue without in-state constituents feeling as much pain. Plenty of out of state drivers use their toll roads and they can collect much more revenue from them this way. Really is making me consider if I should get a NY issued tag and just forgo the useless discounts from the NJ Turnpike Authority.

The NJ EZ-Pass seems almost useless to me, the off-peak discounts are too small and limited to matter. I only drive in NYC like once a month and it's enough to make the NY tag a no-brainer.

Does NJ have a monthly fee? The big draw to MTA or NYSTA is no fee.