New York State Thruway

[kalvado]

^ And on a more meta level, the whole level scheme is kinda hokey.  I think I get where they're going with it (with the A and B referring to additional amenities with the number being the base), but 2A and 2B have more common with everything level 3 than with the base level 2 (hence why I use "level 3" to refer to everything above the base level 2).  And if we're getting technical, maybe Chittenango should actually be "level 1A" given that CFA is closed on Sundays, leaving it with just Starbucks one day out of every week.

As for the distribution, there seems to be a thought of "bigger service areas leaving a metro area, smaller ones further into the journey" for whatever reason.  It's not even a recent thought, given that Ardsley exists and has no SB counterpart.  This is visible even in NYSDOT rest areas; see Clifton Park (no SB counterpart) and the Adirondack Welcome Center (bigger and more modern than Glens Falls SB).

Just checked the project page, and they've updated the reopening dates for all of them.  Looks like they hit a MASSIVE delay at some point, as the renovations went from opening early next year to the end of next year, and Angola was pushed back to 2025 (many of the others slipped by a quarter or two as well).  So much for having the bulk of the system back online for the summer travel season next year.

It probably makes sense if you are looking at traffic numbers only. But I am not likely to stop other than for gas if I am within an hour from the origin city. It's long haul traffic who needs these services. I can see a stop "I am finally out of NYC mess" being popular, but not for other upstate cities.

[lstone19]

As for the distribution, there seems to be a thought of "bigger service areas leaving a metro area, smaller ones further into the journey" for whatever reason.  It's not even a recent thought, given that Ardsley exists and has no SB counterpart.  This is visible even in NYSDOT rest areas; see Clifton Park (no SB counterpart) and the Adirondack Welcome Center (bigger and more modern than Glens Falls SB).

There used to be a SB rest area near Clifton Park but undesirable activities (at least in the eyes of NYSDOT) were happening there at night (it was a hangout of some sort) so it was bulldozed. I believe it was between exits 11 and 10 just north of MP 17 and today is marked only by the trees being father back from the road.

[webny99]

^ And on a more meta level, the whole level scheme is kinda hokey.  I think I get where they're going with it (with the A and B referring to additional amenities with the number being the base), but 2A and 2B have more common with everything level 3 than with the base level 2 (hence why I use "level 3" to refer to everything above the base level 2).  And if we're getting technical, maybe Chittenango should actually be "level 1A" given that CFA is closed on Sundays, leaving it with just Starbucks one day out of every week.

I am fully on board with just referring to all level 2A/2B service areas as level 3. That would greatly simplify things.

And, regarding Chittenango, I think the choice of CFA plus the fact it's the only WB area between Utica and Syracuse means it's pretty clearly the worst level 2 of them all. Did they not consider traffic heading west from Utica/Rome, or that it's popular place for cross-state travelers to stop? I think I've been to Chittenango more than any other WB service area in the entire state save maybe Angola, but now it may be out of the question during busy travel periods.

Just checked the project page, and they've updated the reopening dates for all of them.  Looks like they hit a MASSIVE delay at some point, as the renovations went from opening early next year to the end of next year, and Angola was pushed back to 2025 (many of the others slipped by a quarter or two as well).  So much for having the bulk of the system back online for the summer travel season next year.

That does seem to be the case, which is a bummer. Especially for Angola, which is the only service area west of Buffalo in either direction. I'm also curious what happened to "no two consecutive areas closed" with both Mohawk and Guilderland being closed. With Modena seemingly being restrooms and fuel only while waiting for Ramapo to reopen, New Baltimore is the only full size east/southbound service area open east of Clifton Springs (which is just insane for a 300+ mile stretch of toll highway)!

[kalvado]

Just checked the project page, and they've updated the reopening dates for all of them.  Looks like they hit a MASSIVE delay at some point, as the renovations went from opening early next year to the end of next year, and Angola was pushed back to 2025 (many of the others slipped by a quarter or two as well).  So much for having the bulk of the system back online for the summer travel season next year.

That does seem to be the case, which is a bummer. Especially for Angola, which is the only service area west of Buffalo in either direction. I'm also curious what happened to "no two consecutive areas closed" with both Mohawk and Guilderland being closed. With Modena seemingly being restrooms and fuel only while waiting for Ramapo to reopen, New Baltimore is the only full size east/southbound service area open east of Clifton Springs (which is just insane for a 300+ mile stretch of toll highway)!

Blackmailing governor for the bailout package they did not get?

[webny99]

As for the distribution, there seems to be a thought of "bigger service areas leaving a metro area, smaller ones further into the journey" for whatever reason.  It's not even a recent thought, given that Ardsley exists and has no SB counterpart.  This is visible even in NYSDOT rest areas; see Clifton Park (no SB counterpart) and the Adirondack Welcome Center (bigger and more modern than Glens Falls SB).

It probably makes sense if you are looking at traffic numbers only. But I am not likely to stop other than for gas if I am within an hour from the origin city. It's long haul traffic who needs these services. I can see a stop "I am finally out of NYC mess" being popular, but not for other upstate cities.

It's definitely not based on roadway traffic volume, as Seneca is only a level 2 despite being on the busiest section between Buffalo and Albany. It does make a little more sense when thinking of it in terms of travelers leaving a metro area (Clifton Springs does seem to be notably busier than Port Byron, for example) but the problem is that through traffic doesn't always tail off the further you get from a metro area, especially when you're approaching an even bigger one. I am intrigued by the line of thinking that most travelers aren't looking to make a stop as they approach a large city. While there are a number of good reasons why that could be (the upcoming city is their destination, they're making other stops in the area anyways, they're switching to a different route like I-81 or the Northway, etc.), it seems to ignore travelers on longer cross-state or multi-state trips.


With all that in mind, while I would have obviously preferred for all areas to be level 3, I think the smaller ones can be justified with the following exceptions:
1) Chittenango, as discussed in my previous post
2) The three consecutive level 2's east of Utica (ironically, if Utica got the "major city" treatment, both this and Chittenango would be solved!)
3) Junius Ponds and Seneca both being level 2. Warners is too close to Syracuse to be the only level 3 between Syracuse and Rochester. If there can only be one larger one, it should have been Junius Ponds, not Warners

[vdeane]

That does seem to be the case, which is a bummer. Especially for Angola, which is the only service area west of Buffalo in either direction. I'm also curious what happened to "no two consecutive areas closed" with both Mohawk and Guilderland being closed. With Modena seemingly being restrooms and fuel only while waiting for Ramapo to reopen, New Baltimore is the only full size east/southbound service area open east of Clifton Springs (which is just insane for a 300+ mile stretch of toll highway)!

Mohawk isn't closed.  Are you thinking of Pattersonville on the other side?

The disparity between directions is interest.  North/westbound has 11 "level 3" service areas.  South/eastbound only has 8.  They've also been prioritizing north/westbound in terms of "upgrading", with every single one either reopened or currently closed; the three that have not yet started are all in the south/eastbound direction.  DeWitt will probably close soon, with both Oneida and Port Byron still set to reopen this winter, while Modena will be the last old one still standing.

It will be interesting to watch Reddit to see if the complaints over the new service areas spread east and south.  The Capital District and NYC have been spared the worst of it so far, but with a good chunk of the I-87 service areas now set to be closed through the next summer travel season, and Guilderland being the first "level 2" to reopen east of the Adirondacks, the crunch will be felt.

As for the distribution, there seems to be a thought of "bigger service areas leaving a metro area, smaller ones further into the journey" for whatever reason.  It's not even a recent thought, given that Ardsley exists and has no SB counterpart.  This is visible even in NYSDOT rest areas; see Clifton Park (no SB counterpart) and the Adirondack Welcome Center (bigger and more modern than Glens Falls SB).

It probably makes sense if you are looking at traffic numbers only. But I am not likely to stop other than for gas if I am within an hour from the origin city. It's long haul traffic who needs these services. I can see a stop "I am finally out of NYC mess" being popular, but not for other upstate cities.

It's definitely not based on roadway traffic volume, as Seneca is only a level 2 despite being on the busiest section between Buffalo and Albany. It does make a little more sense when thinking of it in terms of travelers leaving a metro area (Clifton Springs does seem to be notably busier than Port Byron, for example) but the problem is that through traffic doesn't always tail off the further you get from a metro area, especially when you're approaching an even bigger one. I am intrigued by the line of thinking that most travelers aren't looking to make a stop as they approach a large city. While there are a number of good reasons why that could be (the upcoming city is their destination, they're making other stops in the area anyways, they're switching to a different route like I-81 or the Northway, etc.), it seems to ignore travelers on longer cross-state or multi-state trips.


With all that in mind, while I would have obviously preferred for all areas to be level 3, I think the smaller ones can be justified with the following exceptions:
1) Chittenango, as discussed in my previous post
2) The three consecutive level 2's east of Utica (ironically, if Utica got the "major city" treatment, both this and Chittenango would be solved!)
3) Junius Ponds and Seneca both being level 2. Warners is too close to Syracuse to be the only level 3 between Syracuse and Rochester. If there can only be one larger one, it should have been Junius Ponds, not Warners

Between this and the way the AET billing works, I think it's safe to say that the Thruway doesn't care about cross-state travelers at all.

[webny99]

That does seem to be the case, which is a bummer. Especially for Angola, which is the only service area west of Buffalo in either direction. I'm also curious what happened to "no two consecutive areas closed" with both Mohawk and Guilderland being closed. With Modena seemingly being restrooms and fuel only while waiting for Ramapo to reopen, New Baltimore is the only full size east/southbound service area open east of Clifton Springs (which is just insane for a 300+ mile stretch of toll highway)!

Mohawk isn't closed.  Are you thinking of Pattersonville on the other side?

Whoops, apparently just a misreading of the graphic. I see now that the areas still marked as "Phase 2" are the ones that haven't started yet. So much for my statistic, but it is still notable that SB has no areas with food open south of New Baltimore.

The disparity between directions is interest.  North/westbound has 11 "level 3" service areas.  South/eastbound only has 8.  They've also been prioritizing north/westbound in terms of "upgrading", with every single one either reopened or currently closed; the three that have not yet started are all in the south/eastbound direction.  DeWitt will probably close soon, with both Oneida and Port Byron still set to reopen this winter, while Modena will be the last old one still standing.

In that light, it would seem that travelers from NYC are being prioritized - which, cynically, makes sense and would be far from the only statewide issue on which that's the case.

[vdeane]

That does seem to be the case, which is a bummer. Especially for Angola, which is the only service area west of Buffalo in either direction. I'm also curious what happened to "no two consecutive areas closed" with both Mohawk and Guilderland being closed. With Modena seemingly being restrooms and fuel only while waiting for Ramapo to reopen, New Baltimore is the only full size east/southbound service area open east of Clifton Springs (which is just insane for a 300+ mile stretch of toll highway)!

Mohawk isn't closed.  Are you thinking of Pattersonville on the other side?

Whoops, apparently just a misreading of the graphic. I see now that the areas still marked as "Phase 2" are the ones that haven't started yet. So much for my statistic, but it is still notable that SB has no areas with food open south of New Baltimore.

I stopped at DeWitt last week in part to take a look at what the remaining old ones are like now and noted that the convenience store does have the same food options as the Applegreen convenience stores.  There's hot dogs and pizza in the warmers and cold subs.  What's weird is that there are also frozen breakfast sandwiches; how is anyone supposed to eat those on the road?  You'd need a microwave to reheat them!  I can't imagine what they were thinking with that choice...

The disparity between directions is interest.  North/westbound has 11 "level 3" service areas.  South/eastbound only has 8.  They've also been prioritizing north/westbound in terms of "upgrading", with every single one either reopened or currently closed; the three that have not yet started are all in the south/eastbound direction.  DeWitt will probably close soon, with both Oneida and Port Byron still set to reopen this winter, while Modena will be the last old one still standing.

In that light, it would seem that travelers from NYC are being prioritized - which, cynically, makes sense and would be far from the only statewide issue on which that's the case.

The thing is, all those travelers from NYC still have to make the return journey, so I still don't get the asymmetry.  It does explain why everything on I-87 will be "level 3" while I-90 mostly isn't except near Buffalo.  Also why they waited so long to start with many of those.  It looks like they thought they could plow through the four renovations quick this winter only to discover that they can't.

It would be interesting to see if the traffic levels utilizing each service area was driven significantly by what food options were available in addition to location.  If it was, it could meant that some of the calculations were off.

[webny99]

I stopped at DeWitt last week in part to take a look at what the remaining old ones are like now and noted that the convenience store does have the same food options as the Applegreen convenience stores.  There's hot dogs and pizza in the warmers and cold subs.  What's weird is that there are also frozen breakfast sandwiches; how is anyone supposed to eat those on the road?  You'd need a microwave to reheat them!  I can't imagine what they were thinking with that choice...

Good to know that Applegreen has some hot food options as that could come in handy at the areas with fewer food options. Frozen breakfast sandwiches are an odd choice as it seems like a stretch that people would buy them to save for the next day (or necessarily be prepared with a cooler to store them), but truckers may have their own cold storage and/or microwave.

In that light, it would seem that travelers from NYC are being prioritized - which, cynically, makes sense and would be far from the only statewide issue on which that's the case.

The thing is, all those travelers from NYC still have to make the return journey, so I still don't get the asymmetry.  It does explain why everything on I-87 will be "level 3" while I-90 mostly isn't except near Buffalo.  Also why they waited so long to start with many of those.  It looks like they thought they could plow through the four renovations quick this winter only to discover that they can't.

It seems more like an extension of the "larger plazas heading outbound from large cities" concept, but magnified for the NYC area. One of the three extras is Ardsley, and the other two are the first two west of Albany.

[kalvado]

I stopped at DeWitt last week in part to take a look at what the remaining old ones are like now and noted that the convenience store does have the same food options as the Applegreen convenience stores.  There's hot dogs and pizza in the warmers and cold subs.  What's weird is that there are also frozen breakfast sandwiches; how is anyone supposed to eat those on the road?  You'd need a microwave to reheat them!  I can't imagine what they were thinking with that choice...

Good to know that Applegreen has some hot food options as that could come in handy at the areas with fewer food options. Frozen breakfast sandwiches are an odd choice as it seems like a stretch that people would buy them to save for the next day (or necessarily be prepared with a cooler to store them), but truckers may have their own cold storage and/or microwave.

In that light, it would seem that travelers from NYC are being prioritized - which, cynically, makes sense and would be far from the only statewide issue on which that's the case.

The thing is, all those travelers from NYC still have to make the return journey, so I still don't get the asymmetry.  It does explain why everything on I-87 will be "level 3" while I-90 mostly isn't except near Buffalo.  Also why they waited so long to start with many of those.  It looks like they thought they could plow through the four renovations quick this winter only to discover that they can't.

Most likely just an extension of the "larger plazas heading outbound from large cities" concept. One of the three extras is Ardsley, and the other two are the first two west of Albany.

I actually thought that two past Albany are for NYCers going to Adirondack, last meal before the plunge 8nto the wild.
CFA also sort of aligns with NYCers outbound on Friday and Saturday, inbound Sunday IIRC

[seicer]

It's interesting how many varied designs there are out there considering the rebuild was supposed to streamline the design and implementation of the new plazas. At most, two or three varieties should have been considered, but instead, we have six designs. Would it have been that difficult to implement Site Level 1 with 1-2 food concepts and C-store; Site Level 2 with 2-3 food concepts and C-store; and Site Level 3 with 6-8 food concepts, a C-store, and driver amenities (e.g. showers)? Each design could be tweaked for the region they are in.

[kalvado]

It's interesting how many varied designs there are out there considering the rebuild was supposed to streamline the design and implementation of the new plazas. At most, two or three varieties should have been considered, but instead, we have six designs. Would it have been that difficult to implement Site Level 1 with 1-2 food concepts and C-store; Site Level 2 with 2-3 food concepts and C-store; and Site Level 3 with 6-8 food concepts, a C-store, and driver amenities (e.g. showers)? Each design could be tweaked for the region they are in.

Sounds like they did 4 levels as you described

[vdeane]

I stopped at DeWitt last week in part to take a look at what the remaining old ones are like now and noted that the convenience store does have the same food options as the Applegreen convenience stores.  There's hot dogs and pizza in the warmers and cold subs.  What's weird is that there are also frozen breakfast sandwiches; how is anyone supposed to eat those on the road?  You'd need a microwave to reheat them!  I can't imagine what they were thinking with that choice...

Good to know that Applegreen has some hot food options as that could come in handy at the areas with fewer food options. Frozen breakfast sandwiches are an odd choice as it seems like a stretch that people would buy them to save for the next day (or necessarily be prepared with a cooler to store them), but truckers may have their own cold storage and/or microwave.

In that light, it would seem that travelers from NYC are being prioritized - which, cynically, makes sense and would be far from the only statewide issue on which that's the case.

The thing is, all those travelers from NYC still have to make the return journey, so I still don't get the asymmetry.  It does explain why everything on I-87 will be "level 3" while I-90 mostly isn't except near Buffalo.  Also why they waited so long to start with many of those.  It looks like they thought they could plow through the four renovations quick this winter only to discover that they can't.

It seems more like an extension of the "larger plazas heading outbound from large cities" concept, but magnified for the NYC area. One of the three extras is Ardsley, and the other two are the first two west of Albany.

That's a good point.  I wasn't thinking of commercial drivers.  Unfortunately, Schuyler lacks the food items at its Applegreen store (aside from the frozen breakfast sandwiches), but the others have them.

Interesting in mentioning Ardsley, since it's an outlier with no SB counterpart at all.

[webny99]

I actually thought that two past Albany are for NYCers going to Adirondack, last meal before the plunge 8nto the wild.
CFA also sort of aligns with NYCers outbound on Friday and Saturday, inbound Sunday IIRC

That would make sense for the ones west of Albany. Less so beyond there, as most NYC<>WNY traffic wouldn't be using the Thruway the whole way.

Interesting in mentioning Ardsley, since it's an outlier with no SB counterpart at all.

Well, right. I was just looking at NB/WB "level 3" areas that don't have a SB/EB counterpart, and that definitely makes it one.   (It's also why NB/WB has one more overall, 15 to 14)

[seicer]

It's interesting how many varied designs there are out there considering the rebuild was supposed to streamline the design and implementation of the new plazas. At most, two or three varieties should have been considered, but instead, we have six designs. Would it have been that difficult to implement Site Level 1 with 1-2 food concepts and C-store; Site Level 2 with 2-3 food concepts and C-store; and Site Level 3 with 6-8 food concepts, a C-store, and driver amenities (e.g. showers)? Each design could be tweaked for the region they are in.

Sounds like they did 4 levels as you described

The graphic you showed indicates 6 levels: 1, 2, 2A, 2B, 3, 3B

[SignBridge]

Four levels in terms of the number of food concept stores at the facility. 1,2,3 and 6-8. The other two categories just add commercial driver amenities to two of the basic four levels.

[seicer]

I went to one of the new 3B service areas (I believe it was a 3B) and was impressed. The commercial driver amenities are nice but not well advertised, and I'm not sure how well they are used. I spent some time there showering and then getting work done thanks to their tables, generous charging plugs, and WiFi - but I was the only one there on a Saturday night. (In comparison, the Love's one exit over had a 3-hour wait for a shower at nearly twice the price.)

[kalvado]

It's interesting how many varied designs there are out there considering the rebuild was supposed to streamline the design and implementation of the new plazas. At most, two or three varieties should have been considered, but instead, we have six designs. Would it have been that difficult to implement Site Level 1 with 1-2 food concepts and C-store; Site Level 2 with 2-3 food concepts and C-store; and Site Level 3 with 6-8 food concepts, a C-store, and driver amenities (e.g. showers)? Each design could be tweaked for the region they are in.

Sounds like they did 4 levels as you described

The graphic you showed indicates 6 levels: 1, 2, 2A, 2B, 3, 3B

2a and 2b happen to have same area. I bet some walls are added to redistribute footprint between different areas. Same with 3 and 3b.
> Each design could be tweaked for the region they are in.

[froggie]

I actually thought that two past Albany are for NYCers going to Adirondack, last meal before the plunge 8nto the wild.
CFA also sort of aligns with NYCers outbound on Friday and Saturday, inbound Sunday IIRC

I doubt this is the case.  The majority of Adirondack recreational opportunities/destinations (especially winter skiing) are off the Northway.  The only noteworthy destination in the 'Dacks where folks would be taking the Thruway west of Albany instead of the Northway is Old Forge.

[kalvado]

I actually thought that two past Albany are for NYCers going to Adirondack, last meal before the plunge 8nto the wild.
CFA also sort of aligns with NYCers outbound on Friday and Saturday, inbound Sunday IIRC

I doubt this is the case.  The majority of Adirondack recreational opportunities/destinations (especially winter skiing) are off the Northway.  The only noteworthy destination in the 'Dacks where folks would be taking the Thruway west of Albany instead of the Northway is Old Forge.

Skiing - I agree. In summer 30 through Amsterdam is picking up.

[Jim]

Skiing - I agree. In summer 30 through Amsterdam is picking up.

And unfortunately, the recent lane reduction on the NY 30 NB bridge has made backups much worse at busy times.  Similarly, the flyover ramp carrying NB traffic from Church St. to Market St., now striped as 1 lane instead of 2, is no longer an opportunity for cars to get around trucks that have a lot of trouble accelerating up the steep hill after the lights at the NY 5 arterial or High St.  (apologies for the diversion from the thread topic)

[kalvado]

Skiing - I agree. In summer 30 through Amsterdam is picking up.

And unfortunately, the recent lane reduction on the NY 30 NB bridge has made backups much worse at busy times.  Similarly, the flyover ramp carrying NB traffic from Church St. to Market St., now striped as 1 lane instead of 2, is no longer an opportunity for cars to get around trucks that have a lot of trouble accelerating up the steep hill after the lights at the NY 5 arterial or High St.  (apologies for the diversion from the thread topic)

I wonder if funding for that project was advocated by a prominent area politician, maybe a senator...

[vdeane]

I actually thought that two past Albany are for NYCers going to Adirondack, last meal before the plunge 8nto the wild.
CFA also sort of aligns with NYCers outbound on Friday and Saturday, inbound Sunday IIRC

That would make sense for the ones west of Albany. Less so beyond there, as most NYC<>WNY traffic wouldn't be using the Thruway the whole way.

Interesting in mentioning Ardsley, since it's an outlier with no SB counterpart at all.

Well, right. I was just looking at NB/WB "level 3" areas that don't have a SB/EB counterpart, and that definitely makes it one.   (It's also why NB/WB has one more overall, 15 to 14)

It's interesting how Ardsley has no partner at all.  Guilderland is the same way (being between New Baltimore and the Iroquois/Indian Castle pair makes it obvious).  Also either Seneca or Schuyler depending on how you pair the service areas between said pair and Scottsville/Ontario, but not both.

[webny99]

Interesting in mentioning Ardsley, since it's an outlier with no SB counterpart at all.

Well, right. I was just looking at NB/WB "level 3" areas that don't have a SB/EB counterpart, and that definitely makes it one.   (It's also why NB/WB has one more overall, 15 to 14)

It's interesting how Ardsley has no partner at all.  Guilderland is the same way (being between New Baltimore and the Iroquois/Indian Castle pair makes it obvious).  Also either Seneca or Schuyler depending on how you pair the service areas between said pair and Scottsville/Ontario, but not both.

Yeah, the offsets are weird between Albany and Utica, but it does even out to three per direction once you account for Guilderland and Schuyler.

[MASTERNC]

I'm curious as to how the Angola plaza will be set up.  Will it still be in the median?  The exterior rendering looks like a single-direction building next to a parking lot, and there is going to be a drive-thru Starbucks (unless there is a smaller kiosk building on each side).