New York State Thruway

[cl94]

I'm curious as to how the Angola plaza will be set up.  Will it still be in the median?  The exterior rendering looks like a single-direction building next to a parking lot, and there is going to be a drive-thru Starbucks (unless there is a smaller kiosk building on each side).

The renderings are sample renderings. From what I could ascertain, Angola isn't even being fully demolished. It will remain in the median because major work would be required to build outside buildings.

[vdeane]

Interesting in mentioning Ardsley, since it's an outlier with no SB counterpart at all.

Well, right. I was just looking at NB/WB "level 3" areas that don't have a SB/EB counterpart, and that definitely makes it one.   (It's also why NB/WB has one more overall, 15 to 14)

It's interesting how Ardsley has no partner at all.  Guilderland is the same way (being between New Baltimore and the Iroquois/Indian Castle pair makes it obvious).  Also either Seneca or Schuyler depending on how you pair the service areas between said pair and Scottsville/Ontario, but not both.

Yeah, the offsets are weird between Albany and Utica, but it does even out to three per direction once you account for Guilderland and Schuyler.

I wasn't referring to differences in count but rather the oddity of the lack of counterparts for those.  Guilderland is obviously an outlier as there is no service area between New Baltimore and Mohawk/Pattersonville in the other direction.  Finding the other outlier is trickier... if you assume the pairs are Schuyler/Oneida, Chittenango/DeWitt, Warners/Port Byron, and Junius Ponds/Clifton Springs, the outlier is Seneca, but if you assume the pairs are Seneca/Clifton Springs, Junius Ponds/Port Byron, Warners/DeWitt, and Chittenango/Oneida, the outlier is Schuyler.

Thinking about it, Schuyler might be more natural than Seneca to think of as the outlier due to how unnaturally close it is to Iroquois, something Guilderland shares with Mohawk.

I'm curious as to how the Angola plaza will be set up.  Will it still be in the median?  The exterior rendering looks like a single-direction building next to a parking lot, and there is going to be a drive-thru Starbucks (unless there is a smaller kiosk building on each side).

The renderings are sample renderings. From what I could ascertain, Angola isn't even being fully demolished. It will remain in the median because major work would be required to build outside buildings.

Angola isn't one of the four being renovated... those are Sloatsburg, Malden, Pattersonville, and Ontario.

[webny99]

Interesting in mentioning Ardsley, since it's an outlier with no SB counterpart at all.

Well, right. I was just looking at NB/WB "level 3" areas that don't have a SB/EB counterpart, and that definitely makes it one.   (It's also why NB/WB has one more overall, 15 to 14)

It's interesting how Ardsley has no partner at all.  Guilderland is the same way (being between New Baltimore and the Iroquois/Indian Castle pair makes it obvious).  Also either Seneca or Schuyler depending on how you pair the service areas between said pair and Scottsville/Ontario, but not both.

Yeah, the offsets are weird between Albany and Utica, but it does even out to three per direction once you account for Guilderland and Schuyler.

I wasn't referring to differences in count but rather the oddity of the lack of counterparts for those.  Guilderland is obviously an outlier as there is no service area between New Baltimore and Mohawk/Pattersonville in the other direction.  Finding the other outlier is trickier... if you assume the pairs are Schuyler/Oneida, Chittenango/DeWitt, Warners/Port Byron, and Junius Ponds/Clifton Springs, the outlier is Seneca, but if you assume the pairs are Seneca/Clifton Springs, Junius Ponds/Port Byron, Warners/DeWitt, and Chittenango/Oneida, the outlier is Schuyler.

Yep, I get that, and I tend to take the latter view. My point was just that Guilderland and Schuyler are a bit like counterparts to one another, even despite there being two clear pairs in between them, in that they're both the oddball in their respective directions between Albany and Utica. And, because they exist on a long stretch with no service area in the other direction, they're quite close to Mohawk and Iroquois respectively, at least by Thruway standards.

[webny99]

there in my inbox on Friday afternoon was an Excel link to the raw traffic count data for every mainline gantry on the Thruway system from Jan 1, 2022 to July 31, 2023. The data for each gantry is organized in a single column by lane, so parsing through and converting it to a more usable format takes some doing, but is manageable now that I've got the hang of it. ...

Update: I'm finished with the initial AADT data compilation for all Thruway gantries between the PA line at Ripley and the MA line at Canaan. This includes all mainline gantries on I-90, plus the two gantries on I-87 that serve as an east-west Thruway alternate via the Berkshire Spur. The data from the gantry at MM 431.2 (former Lackawanna Toll Barrier) was missing several hundred data points, so I've submitted a follow-up FOIL request and marked it "Pending" below until I can obtain complete data.

Route	Mile Marker	Segment Description	2022 AADT*	High Value	High Value Date
I-90	488.4	Exit 61 (Ripley) to 60 (NY394)	20248	34913	Fri, July 1
I-90	431.2	Exit 56 (NY179) to 55 (US219)	Pending	Pending	Pending
I-90	418.2	Exit 50 (I-290) to 49 (NY78)	53851	76194	Fri, Aug 12
I-90	379.1	Exit 48 (NY98) to 47 (I-490)	39982	61040	Fri, Aug 12
I-90	369.3	Exit 47 (I-490) to 46 (I-390)	29338	47649	Fri, July 1
I-90	358.2	Exit 46 (I-390) to 45 (I-490)	31479	49357	Fri, July 1
I-90	348.0	Exit 45 (I-490) to 44 (NY332)	60201	87098	Fri, July 1
I-90	340.5	Exit 44 (NY332) to 43 (NY21)	43265	66300	Fri, July 1
I-90	294.6	Exit 40 (NY34) to 39 (I-690)	37602	60703	Fri, July 1
I-90	288.8	Exit 39 (I-690) to 38 (CR57)	32009	49927	Fri, July 1
I-90	283.4	Exit 37 (ElecPkwy) to 36 (I-81)	35202	53106	Fri, July 1
I-90	281.3	Exit 36 (I-81) to 35 (NY298)	28757	42811	Fri, Oct 7
I-90	277.5	Exit 35 (NY298) to 34A (I-481)	26001	39619	Fri, July 1
I-90	276.1	Exit 34A (I-481) to 34 (NY13)	38236	59912	Fri, Sept 2
I-90	161.0	Exit 26 (I-890) to 25A (I-88)	30233	45577	Fri, July 1
I-90	157.8	Exit 25A (I-88) to 25 (I-890)	43648	64374	Fri, Oct 7
I-90	149.6	Exit 25 (I-890) to 24 (I-87/I-90)	76517	103210	Fri, Oct 7
I-87	145.6	Exit 24 (I-90/I-87) to 23 (I-787)	48224	71674	Fri, July 1
I-87	139.7	Exit 23 (I-787) to 22 (NY144)	49561	76145	Fri, July 1
I-90	B17.7	Exit B2 (TacPkwy) to B3 (NY22)	24903	42867	Sun, Aug 14

*2022 AADT values are raw 365-day averages with exceptions for Thruway closures and extreme weather events. Only full and complete days of data were used. Further details available upon request.

Upon further reflection, I am calling into question the two data points in red. I think there's a significant chance that "free" traffic between I-88 and Exit 24 is being completely ignored by the toll gantries, or automatically deducted from the counts.

This would be consistent with both data points being considerably lower than NYSDOT's estimates of 49k and 86k respectively. There's also, as shown above, only a 14k gap between 25-25A (44k) and 25A-26 (30k), while the I-88 ramp volumes would suggest closer to a 20k gap. And finally, the 44k figure would suggest that 25-25A is almost exactly as busy as 43-44 southeast of Rochester which seems like a BIG stretch based on my experience with both segments, plus 25-25A being busy enough for six lanes and located well within the Albany/Schenectady urbanized area.

[vdeane]

24-25A isn't ignored by the gantries; I get a $0.00 charge on my E-ZPass statement whenever I travel it.  Notably it's a single line despite being two gantries, proving that the Thruway can make everyone's life easier by grouping everything, they just refuse to do so.

[vdeane]

Looks like some Assembly members are taking aim at CFA on the Thruway.  There's now a bill that would require service area restaurants to be open seven days a week.

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/bill-would-require-restaurants-to-open-sundays-on-new-york-state-thruway-chick-fil-a/

[jeffandnicole]

Looks like some Assembly members are taking aim at CFA on the Thruway.  There's now a bill that would require service area restaurants to be open seven days a week.

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/bill-would-require-restaurants-to-open-sundays-on-new-york-state-thruway-chick-fil-a/

Per the article:

The change would apply to future contracts for all food concessions at facilities owned by the New York State Thruway Authority.

The current contract is with Applegreen - and that runs 33 years (until about 2050 or so).  I didn't see anything after a quick web search if they have individual contracts with Chick-fil-a that are shorter terms, but for at least the current restaurants, they're not going to be forced to open on Sundays or terminate their contract early.  So it's really a law for the next generation. 

[vdeane]

Looks like some Assembly members are taking aim at CFA on the Thruway.  There's now a bill that would require service area restaurants to be open seven days a week.

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/bill-would-require-restaurants-to-open-sundays-on-new-york-state-thruway-chick-fil-a/

Per the article:

The change would apply to future contracts for all food concessions at facilities owned by the New York State Thruway Authority.

The current contract is with Applegreen - and that runs 33 years (until about 2050 or so).  I didn't see anything after a quick web search if they have individual contracts with Chick-fil-a that are shorter terms, but for at least the current restaurants, they're not going to be forced to open on Sundays or terminate their contract early.  So it's really a law for the next generation. 

True, but the bill does mention CFA specifically and fixing what comes later is better than nothing.  Incidentally, I'm not sure what the lease terms are for the food vendors, but they've changed before, and not just with service area rebuilds.  Chittenango was Sbarro/Dunkin Donuts before it was Sbarro/Starbucks (now, of course, it's Starbucks/CFA).

[jmacswimmer]

The Oneida service area quietly reopened last week:

https://www.thruway.ny.gov/news/pressrel/2024/01/2024-01-10-oneida-opens.html

Not noted in the press release, but another article I read (can't find it now) mentioned Warners & Port Byron being on track to reopen in the spring, at which point DeWitt (one of the 3 remaining untouched plazas) would be able to close.

On a nitpicking level, Oneida is deviating from what appeared to be the formula of burger+chicken+coffee at the 2A-level plazas - there is a BK & Starbucks, but instead of a chicken joint there will be a Panera here (which I think had only appeared at 1 or 2 3-level plazas so far).

[D-Dey65]

I forgot where I read this, but I recently learned that the Thruway Authority was adding crossing gates at off-ramps in case they need to close the road in case of blizzards. I guess it won't be long before we start seeing "Closed When Flashing" signs along the thruway, like in the Northern Rockies and Great Plains.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg/640px-I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg

[Rothman]

I forgot where I read this, but I recently learned that the Thruway Authority was adding crossing gates at off-ramps in case they need to close the road in case of blizzards. I guess it won't be long before we start seeing "Closed When Flashing" signs along the thruway, like in the Northern Rockies and Great Plains.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg/640px-I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg

Meh.  Typically will only be needed from Syracuse west.

[kalvado]

I forgot where I read this, but I recently learned that the Thruway Authority was adding crossing gates at off-ramps in case they need to close the road in case of blizzards. I guess it won't be long before we start seeing "Closed When Flashing" signs along the thruway, like in the Northern Rockies and Great Plains.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg/640px-I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg

Meh.  Typically will only be needed from Syracuse west.

I believe closer to NYC - shit can happen as well due to the ocean.

[webny99]

Most recent closures have been west of Exit 46 (I-390) due to heavy lake effect snow off Lake Erie. Rochester to Utica gets lake effect off Lake Ontario, but rarely heavy enough for a duration that would require a full Thruway closure. It's the I-81 corridor from Pulaski to Watertown that gets the worst of it.

[froggie]

It's the I-81 corridor from Pulaski to Watertown that gets the worst of it.

I'd go all the way down to 481 on that assessment.  I've seen plenty of heavy lake-effect bands in Central Square and Cicero.  The right northwesterly wind will even drag it into Syracuse proper.

[Rothman]

I forgot where I read this, but I recently learned that the Thruway Authority was adding crossing gates at off-ramps in case they need to close the road in case of blizzards. I guess it won't be long before we start seeing "Closed When Flashing" signs along the thruway, like in the Northern Rockies and Great Plains.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg/640px-I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg

Meh.  Typically will only be needed from Syracuse west.

I believe closer to NYC - shit can happen as well due to the ocean.

No.

[Rothman]

It's the I-81 corridor from Pulaski to Watertown that gets the worst of it.

I'd go all the way down to 481 on that assessment.  I've seen plenty of heavy lake-effect bands in Central Square and Cicero.  The right northwesterly wind will even drag it into Syracuse proper.

No.  Despite the fact Syracuse is, on average, the snowiest city of 100,000 people or more in the country, I-81 closures occur more north on the Tug Hill Plateau.

I concur with webny.

[webny99]

It's the I-81 corridor from Pulaski to Watertown that gets the worst of it.

I'd go all the way down to 481 on that assessment.  I've seen plenty of heavy lake-effect bands in Central Square and Cicero.  The right northwesterly wind will even drag it into Syracuse proper.

No.  Despite the fact Syracuse is, on average, the snowiest city of 100,000 people or more in the country, I-81 closures occur more north on the Tug Hill Plateau.

I concur with webny.

It's fair to point out that lake effect bands can/do occur well south of Pulaski, but they are less likely to be of an intensity/duration that would cause an interstate closure.

[Rothman]

It's the I-81 corridor from Pulaski to Watertown that gets the worst of it.

I'd go all the way down to 481 on that assessment.  I've seen plenty of heavy lake-effect bands in Central Square and Cicero.  The right northwesterly wind will even drag it into Syracuse proper.

No.  Despite the fact Syracuse is, on average, the snowiest city of 100,000 people or more in the country, I-81 closures occur more north on the Tug Hill Plateau.

I concur with webny.

It's fair to point out that lake effect bands can/do occur well south of Pulaski, but they are less likely to be of an intensity/duration that would cause an interstate closure.

No, it is not.

[webny99]

I concur with webny.

Knew it was too good to be true.   

[Alps]

It's the I-81 corridor from Pulaski to Watertown that gets the worst of it.

I'd go all the way down to 481 on that assessment.  I've seen plenty of heavy lake-effect bands in Central Square and Cicero.  The right northwesterly wind will even drag it into Syracuse proper.

No.  Despite the fact Syracuse is, on average, the snowiest city of 100,000 people or more in the country, I-81 closures occur more north on the Tug Hill Plateau.

I concur with webny.

It's fair to point out that lake effect bands can/do occur well south of Pulaski, but they are less likely to be of an intensity/duration that would cause an interstate closure.

No, it is not.

Yes, it is.

[vdeane]

Also worth noting that lettered emergency detour routes for the Thruway only exist from Utica west.

[Mr. Matté]

I forgot where I read this, but I recently learned that the Thruway Authority was adding crossing gates at off-ramps in case they need to close the road in case of blizzards. I guess it won't be long before we start seeing "Closed When Flashing" signs along the thruway, like in the Northern Rockies and Great Plains.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg/640px-I-29_US81_North_-_Exit_1_-_Richland_CR1E_%2843656595331%29.jpg

Meh.  Typically will only be needed from Syracuse west.

I believe closer to NYC - shit can happen as well due to the ocean.

Out of curiosity, using the Wiki KML file for I-87 and Google Earth elevation profile, the lowest point along the Thruway is at about elev. 38 at the west end of the Tappan Zee. If the oceans are that high to warrant crossing gates, the whole area, NYC inclusive, is completely screwed and crossing gates would be the least of anyone's concerns.

[froggie]

It's the I-81 corridor from Pulaski to Watertown that gets the worst of it.

I'd go all the way down to 481 on that assessment.  I've seen plenty of heavy lake-effect bands in Central Square and Cicero.  The right northwesterly wind will even drag it into Syracuse proper.

No.  Despite the fact Syracuse is, on average, the snowiest city of 100,000 people or more in the country, I-81 closures occur more north on the Tug Hill Plateau.

I concur with webny.

I'm not saying that Tug Hill isn't the worst.  My point was that I've seen enough south of Pulaski (especially during my wife's Syracuse days) that you could warrant installing gates at least down to Cicero, if not 481.

[Rothman]

It's the I-81 corridor from Pulaski to Watertown that gets the worst of it.

I'd go all the way down to 481 on that assessment.  I've seen plenty of heavy lake-effect bands in Central Square and Cicero.  The right northwesterly wind will even drag it into Syracuse proper.

No.  Despite the fact Syracuse is, on average, the snowiest city of 100,000 people or more in the country, I-81 closures occur more north on the Tug Hill Plateau.

I concur with webny.

I'm not saying that Tug Hill isn't the worst.  My point was that I've seen enough south of Pulaski (especially during my wife's Syracuse days) that you could warrant installing gates at least down to Cicero, if not 481.

NYSDOT Region 3 has disagreed with you for years, then.

Also, it is appearing that the changes to the polar vortex due to climate change has lowered the amount of snow Syracuse has received over the past decade.  Snow totals have been far below average in the past bunch of years due to warmer air being sucked up futher north as the vortex wobbles.

[webny99]

Warmer winters have definitely played a role, but I wonder how much the primary wind direction has impacted things too. Buffalo, and its Southtowns in particular, seem to have been getting worse in the last few years. A lack of northwest winds would explain both that AND the relative lack of heavy bands shifting south/east off Lake Ontario.