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Your opinion: has Major League Soccer turned the “Big Four” into the “Big Five”?

Started by KCRoadFan, October 18, 2021, 07:58:44 PM

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thspfc

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.

Chris
The NHL was NBC Sports' flagship program for a long time, as Sunday Night Football and Notre Dame football are only on once a week each in the fall.


thspfc

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2021, 10:29:41 PM
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
As if the same is not the case for MLB.

thspfc

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.

Chris

I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.

Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose.  But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.

Chris
Perhaps because they're about to shut down NBCSN.

thspfc

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures.  Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things.  How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?

Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong.  If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country.  Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher.  That's just simply not an accurate statement.

Chris

How so?  Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be.  I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando).  Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally.  Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.

I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity.  That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS.  I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that.  The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
The level of competition is not relevant. College football is the second or third most popular sport in the country in terms of just about every metric. (Which is why the Big 4 is a lie and a false narrative). Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0. Doesn't change the fact that college football is really popular.

thspfc

Quote from: DandyDan on October 19, 2021, 06:47:31 AM
No. Here in Mason City, IA, I have known exactly 4 people who have ever gone to an MLS game. The number who have attended games in MLB, NFL, NHL or NBA is much higher even though you have to go to the Twin Cities to go to the closest team for all those leagues. And the truth is, they aren't all going to the Twin Cities. I know more people here who have gone to Bears games in Chicago than MLS games anywhere.
" Here in Mason City, Iowa . . ."  *proceeds to act like anyone cares about what goes on in Mason City, Iowa*

1995hoo

Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:05:21 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2021, 10:29:41 PM
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
As if the same is not the case for MLB.

I see it far less frequently as to MLB. Your posts sound like you're in one of your little moods again this morning.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures.  Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things.  How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?

Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong.  If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country.  Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher.  That's just simply not an accurate statement.

Chris

How so?  Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be.  I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando).  Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally.  Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.

I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity.  That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS.  I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that.  The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
The level of competition is not relevant. College football is the second or third most popular sport in the country in terms of just about every metric. (Which is why the Big 4 is a lie and a false narrative). Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0. Doesn't change the fact that college football is really popular.

Likewise don't MLS teams tend to struggle against their higher tier league professional counterparts when they actually play?  I seem to recall occasional friendly matches being a thing with the Orlando City Lions.  It would be like a minor baseball team taking on their parent MLB team.  Again, my argument isn't so much about revenue/popularity is about the actual standing of these leagues in their respective sports.

hotdogPi

Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AM
Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0.

I've been wondering how WNBA vs. men's college basketball would play out. It's been previously established that there's a huge gap between professional and college but also a huge gap between men and women. Would they cancel each other out here and have a fair game? (I only chose basketball because it's the most prominent women's professional league.)
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

thspfc

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 19, 2021, 08:17:55 AM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures.  Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things.  How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?

Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong.  If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country.  Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher.  That's just simply not an accurate statement.

Chris

How so?  Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be.  I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando).  Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally.  Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.

I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity.  That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS.  I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that.  The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
The level of competition is not relevant. College football is the second or third most popular sport in the country in terms of just about every metric. (Which is why the Big 4 is a lie and a false narrative). Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0. Doesn't change the fact that college football is really popular.

Likewise don't MLS teams tend to struggle against their higher tier league professional counterparts when they actually play?  I seem to recall occasional friendly matches being a thing with the Orlando City Lions.  It would be like a minor baseball team taking on their parent MLB team.  Again, my argument isn't so much about revenue/popularity is about the actual standing of these leagues in their respective sports.
Everyone knows that MLS is not on par with the European leagues, but it's certainly closer to them than college football is to the NFL, or college basketball to the NBA.

thspfc

Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 08:18:03 AM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AM
Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0.

I've been wondering how WNBA vs. men's college basketball would play out. It's been previously established that there's a huge gap between professional and college but also a huge gap between men and women. Would they cancel each other out here and have a fair game? (I only chose basketball because it's the most prominent women's professional league.)
An average Division I men's team would handily win.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 19, 2021, 07:58:22 AM
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 07:48:59 AM
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.

In terms of domestic popularity the ATP is probably a notch below the PGA tour in terms of domestic popularity.  Interestingly I've found the PGA tour to have some real die hard fandom over the years.  Golf much like Tennis only really tends to get my interest when it comes to big events like a Grand Slam or Major.  I would have to assume the fan base for tennis is more diverse and younger than golf but I could be wrong.

Regarding the UFC that seems to be largely a younger fan base.  Much of the older fan base more or stuck to professional boxing.

I want to like boxing more than I do.  The judging is inconsistent at best and corrupt at worst.

Chris

JayhawkCO

Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:08:04 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.

Chris

I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.

Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose.  But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.

Chris
Perhaps because they're about to shut down NBCSN.

It's a chicken and egg situation.  Would they be shutting it down if hockey were more popular? (And for the record, I love hockey.)

Chris

thspfc

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 08:40:19 AM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:08:04 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.

Chris

I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.

Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose.  But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.

Chris
Perhaps because they're about to shut down NBCSN.

It's a chicken and egg situation.  Would they be shutting it down if hockey were more popular? (And for the record, I love hockey.)

Chris
I believe the decision had more to do with them wanting to shove Peacock in everyone's faces. I don't think NBCSN was struggling.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:44:07 AM
I believe the decision had more to do with them wanting to shove Peacock in everyone's faces. I don't think NBCSN was struggling.

I doubt it was either, which made is strange to shut down, but I've long advocated having a la carte channels for content, since I watch very few things live other than sports.  I don't mind the streaming apps for each channel, but it'd be nice if Peacock had something for me other than EPL and Yellowstone.

Chris

GaryV

Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AMYet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0.
I don't know, the Lions might still find a way to lose.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 08:39:17 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 19, 2021, 07:58:22 AM
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 07:48:59 AM
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.

In terms of domestic popularity the ATP is probably a notch below the PGA tour in terms of domestic popularity.  Interestingly I've found the PGA tour to have some real die hard fandom over the years.  Golf much like Tennis only really tends to get my interest when it comes to big events like a Grand Slam or Major.  I would have to assume the fan base for tennis is more diverse and younger than golf but I could be wrong.

Regarding the UFC that seems to be largely a younger fan base.  Much of the older fan base more or stuck to professional boxing.

I want to like boxing more than I do.  The judging is inconsistent at best and corrupt at worst.

Chris

When boxing is good it's probably one of the best sports to watch.  Trouble is there is really no consistency in terms of when a great fighter/s will come along.  UFC strikes me as way less corrupt but generally draws from a similar crowd of a younger demographic. 

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 19, 2021, 09:39:33 AM
When boxing is good it's probably one of the best sports to watch.  Trouble is there is really no consistency in terms of when a great fighter/s will come along.  UFC strikes me as way less corrupt but generally draws from a similar crowd of a younger demographic.

I heard the Fury/Wilder match was one of the best in recent memory (especially for heavyweight division).  Unfortunately I'm not likely to ever see any of the big fights live because I've been burnt with so many head scratching decisions that go contrary to everything that I had watched for the past hour.

Chris

NWI_Irish96

MLS isn't even the most popular soccer league in the US. More people watch Premier League games than MLS games.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

JayhawkCO

Quote from: cabiness42 on October 19, 2021, 09:59:12 AM
MLS isn't even the most popular soccer league in the US. More people watch Premier League games than MLS games.

I don't disagree, but put it this way.  When you ask about a city and which professional sports teams it has, you're going to get answers from the "Big Five".  You were never going to get answers from Arena Football, XFL, CBA, etc.  Those of us that are arguing that MLS is in the "pantheon" aren't saying it's the best soccer out there.  We are saying that it's in the conversation.  NFL is obviously king.  Then NBA.  Then MLB, although it's fading.  Then NHL and MLS are the next tier.

I think this is a lot like politics and social media.  We all surround ourselves who think the same way we do so we find it impossible for those to think otherwise.  I've been trying to present data as far as attendance and whatnot to mitigate my own bias.  But I have a hunch that everyone who is saying that MLS isn't "Big Five" has probably never been to a match and tend to stick to the teams they supported growing up.  And that's all fine.  But as we all age, there are plenty of people paying money for sports that have grown up soccer fans and the MLS will only grow in popularity because of it.

I remember talking to some Englishmen when I was traveling abroad about why the U.S. National Team isn't that good compared to their European counterparts.  I basically told them that people my age didn't grow up seeing soccer highlights on SportsCenter.  We saw Jordan, Montana, Kirby Puckett (Minnesota homer here), Gretzky, whatever.  We had heard of Pele, but we didn't see Cosmos highlights.  I had never even heard of Eusebio, Cruyff, Maradona, etc. as a kid.  So when we played soccer (which I did from age 5 to age 15), we didn't have those guys to emulate.  When I played basketball (which I did for a similar time frame), OF COURSE I emulated Jordan.  When I played baseball, I jumped into the fence pretending I was Kirby robbing a home run away from people.  We didn't know what good soccer looked like.  Now kids are seeing Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe, etc. as well as seeing good (not great) soccer locally with their MLS club.  They're going to be more driven to be on that level.  We might have a golden generation on our hands with Pulisic, McKennie, Dest, Reyna, etc. all playing for big European clubs.  I get that they're not in the MLS, but soccer is only going to keep steamrolling in popularity if the U.S. National Team has success in the next couple of World Cups.

MLS attendance has already made leaps and bounds compared to when it first was created and was played in non-soccer specific stadia.  It was a bad product then, and as the owners have become more savvy, and as soccer in general has become more of a spectator sport as opposed to something you just played as a kid, MLS has grown a ton, and hence expanded.

If there are no stats I can convince you naysayers with, let me try one more.  LAFC, the highest valued MLS franchise, is valued at $860 Million.  Even the Colorado Rapids, the lowest valued MLS franchise is valued at $370 Million.  The Arizona Coyotes are valued at $285 Million.   If you're counting the NHL in the "Big X", then the MLS has to be there too. Money talks.

Chris

SP Cook

IMHO,

Discussions of attendance are misleading.  I just looked for tickets to the nearest MLS team.  $16.  Just not the same thing as the major sports.  If you can't find 20K or so people willing to pay $16 17 times a year in any reasonable sized metro area, you aren't trying. 

One of the few smart things ex Baseball Commissioner Fay Vincent ever said was "what the h*** else are they going to show all summer?"   He was talking about ESPN, but it spreads out all across the sports TV industry.  ESPN, and its imitators, have puffed up lots of things, including MLS and other soccer in an attempt to answer that question.  It remains unanswered. 

More broadly, not everybody lives in a big city.  The depth of fandom of the NFL and MLB are really nationwide.  NHL is less so, but, especially in the traditional markets, still there.  NBA is less regional, but still has nationwide fans.  MLS fanbases don't go much past the beltway of the city involved.

This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport.  That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch.  Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.

Henry

Try as it might, MLS is simply not as big a draw as the other four North American leagues. In fact, the European football leagues still maintain a huge worldwide presence (including here in America), and I suspect that it'll be a very long time before that changes, if ever.

To me, it'll be NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, and then everyone else (where MLS falls under, along with the more individual-focused sports such as The PGA Tour and NASCAR).
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

JayhawkCO

Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
IMHO,

Discussions of attendance are misleading.  I just looked for tickets to the nearest MLS team.  $16.  Just not the same thing as the major sports.  If you can't find 20K or so people willing to pay $16 17 times a year in any reasonable sized metro area, you aren't trying. 

One of the few smart things ex Baseball Commissioner Fay Vincent ever said was "what the h*** else are they going to show all summer?"   He was talking about ESPN, but it spreads out all across the sports TV industry.  ESPN, and its imitators, have puffed up lots of things, including MLS and other soccer in an attempt to answer that question.  It remains unanswered. 

More broadly, not everybody lives in a big city.  The depth of fandom of the NFL and MLB are really nationwide.  NHL is less so, but, especially in the traditional markets, still there.  NBA is less regional, but still has nationwide fans.  MLS fanbases don't go much past the beltway of the city involved.

This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport.  That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch.  Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.

Again though, does the entire state of Georgia care about Atlanta United as much as they care about the Falcons? Of course not. I'm not arguing that.  People grew up being Falcons fans because their parents were Falcons fans.  That's why the fandom extends outside the beltway.  It's tradition.  That said, the MLS will become more traditional as it ages.  NBA didn't used to be a big deal.  Hell, the NFL didn't either.  Baseball was king.  Times they are a-changin'.

Ticket prices are misleading too because the salaries are so much lower in the MLS at the moment.  That will change.

Chris

US 89

So one of the common threads I'm noticing here is that just about everyone who has sad something to the effect of "no, MLS doesn't even come close to NHL" is from the northern or northeastern US. That's the only part of this country where hockey is really relevant. I've lived in Utah and Georgia and nobody in either of those places cares one bit about hockey of any sort. In Utah you might run into a few Vegas Golden Knights fans, but I'm entirely blaming that on novelty factor and the fact that they're actually good. I will be shocked if those people don't move on once the Knights aren't a top-tier team anymore.

MLS on the other hand has a far better following outside the north and northeast. Atlanta United is one of the best supported MLS teams in the country. Real Salt Lake hasn't even been good for a while but still has a decent following. And yeah, soccer is still more of an urban following for the most part, but give it time. Soccer was irrelevant in this country 20 years ago unless you were one of a few people who followed the European leagues. The US soccer fanbase has gone from a small niche in city cores to a decent following across metropolitan areas - especially ones with an MLS team. It takes time for this kind of thing to spread to more rural regions.

I maintain the rural region argument doesn't hold up, anyway. College football is the real king in rural parts of this country except for maybe in the northeast, where there aren't all that many schools with nationally recognized athletics programs. And among the big professional leagues, I think people here are giving the NBA too much credit. In my experience NBA fanbases are very urban-focused and also skewed towards the western part of the country (in no small part due to the dominance of West Coast teams and the very late game schedules that occur as a result).

Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport.  That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch.  Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.

This is not my experience at all. I have multiple friends who are die-hard Atlanta United fans but also would be more than happy to talk to you about the Braves or the Falcons or college football or whatever else.

SP Cook

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 10:39:22 AM

Again though, does the entire state of Georgia care about Atlanta United as much as they care about the Falcons? Of course not. I'm not arguing that.  People grew up being Falcons fans because their parents were Falcons fans.  That's why the fandom extends outside the beltway.  It's tradition.  That said, the MLS will become more traditional as it ages.

  NBA didn't used to be a big deal.  Hell, the NFL didn't either.  Baseball was king.  Times they are a-changin'.

The times are unquestionably changing.  However, envisioning MLS in some sort of different position in the future than it has now as somehow inevitable, assumes facts not in evidence.

Since you brought up Georgia, lets go with that.  Now MAYBE, some little kid in Macon or Savanna or any of the 1000s of yet smaller places think of Atlanta's MLS team as "us"  the way he does the Falcons (or more surely the Braves and yet more surely the Bulldogs).  Or maybe he will continue to ignore the whole matter, as MLS will remain the domain of 20 to 40 K people, all in a very tight demographic that doesn't translate outside big cities too much, in metro Atlanta.

And, even among those who follow soccer, is Atlanta really "us"  to people in Macon.  Could he not just as easily follow Los Angeles.  Or Manchester or Milan?

And the MLS' use of affectectional names is a part of that, of course.

Quote
Ticket prices are misleading too because the salaries are so much lower in the MLS at the moment.  That will change.


Again, that inevitability.  MLS players make $X.  MAYBE in a generation, they will make what baseball players make.  MAYBE they will still make $X.  Don't know.

But, ticket prices.  Selling 17 dates for under twenty bucks is one thing.  There is no real reason to believe that this translates to the prices the Big Four sports charge.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: US 89 on October 19, 2021, 11:32:28 AM
So one of the common threads I'm noticing here is that just about everyone who has sad something to the effect of "no, MLS doesn't even come close to NHL" is from the northern or northeastern US. That's the only part of this country where hockey is really relevant. I've lived in Utah and Georgia and nobody in either of those places cares one bit about hockey of any sort. In Utah you might run into a few Vegas Golden Knights fans, but I'm entirely blaming that on novelty factor and the fact that they're actually good. I will be shocked if those people don't move on once the Knights aren't a top-tier team anymore.

MLS on the other hand has a far better following outside the north and northeast. Atlanta United is one of the best supported MLS teams in the country. Real Salt Lake hasn't even been good for a while but still has a decent following. And yeah, soccer is still more of an urban following for the most part, but give it time. Soccer was irrelevant in this country 20 years ago unless you were one of a few people who followed the European leagues. The US soccer fanbase has gone from a small niche in city cores to a decent following across metropolitan areas - especially ones with an MLS team. It takes time for this kind of thing to spread to more rural regions.

I maintain the rural region argument doesn't hold up, anyway. College football is the real king in rural parts of this country except for maybe in the northeast, where there aren't all that many schools with nationally recognized athletics programs. And among the big professional leagues, I think people here are giving the NBA too much credit. In my experience NBA fanbases are very urban-focused and also skewed towards the western part of the country (in no small part due to the dominance of West Coast teams and the very late game schedules that occur as a result).

Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport.  That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch.  Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.

This is not my experience at all. I have multiple friends who are die-hard Atlanta United fans but also would be more than happy to talk to you about the Braves or the Falcons or college football or whatever else.

Could not agree more with this post.  Since I've brought up Atlanta multiple times, is there a reason the Thrashers couldn't make it in Atlanta but Atlanta United can? Seems if the NHL was by far and away stronger of a product than MLS, then that shouldn't have happened.

Chris



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